Game Thread: San Antonio Spurs at Indiana Pacers November 6th, 2023 | 6:00 PM CT

[itzsoweezee]

Sochan getting embarrassed. The guy looks broken

[Frenchfred]

Spurs need to get a PG for real and move Sochan back to his position and even then I’m not sure that he is good enough

[baseline bum]

Spurs need to get a PG for real and move Sochan back to his position and even then I’m not sure that he is good enough

Yeah if he's not going to be a good defender WTF is the point of having him starting?

[tim_duncan_fan]

The fun thing about this is that we know from the last five years of Spurs content that this will change absolutely nothing and the team will be like this all year.

I keep waffling on this every time we look somewhat possibly decent, but the truth is that we need another good and thorough tank. This will become even more evident when Devin's limitation as a ball-handler is exposed. Not saying his shot isn't absolutely insane, but we are going to need a boss at guard/wing.

We have to have a shooter and creator in one person.

[MultiTroll]

We signed Pop for 5 more years :lol
Ya this putting Pop on a pedestal and making him bigger then the team is really workin out.

"I'll retire when Duncan retires."

[KobesAchilles]

I was going to post the exact same thing. Can you imagine drafting Duncan so del negro, Elliot and Avery Johnson can shoot multiple 3s per game and not pass it to him? Wtf
Very few posters here actually saw prime Tim Duncan. They are unaware that we actually had a franchise player that we gave the ball to like every fucking play. A lot of them only saw the beautiful game so they think that’s what we always did and what we should always do. It’s why you see people defending such and such player of taking shots instead of feeding the big man. Or defending the offense in general when slowing down the game and dropping it off and not shooting stupid shots could set up your defense, it could slow down the pace of the game, and it could get your team settled down. Instead the Spurs play chicken with its head cut off type of offense.

Luka gets the ball all the time. Tatum. Lebron. Joker. Steph. Giannis. KD. Embiid. These guys get the ball in spots they want it and they make plays for their teams and the offense revolves around them. It doesn’t revolve around the role players for them to take shots whenever the fuck they want. People here just don’t get the fact, we have a franchise player now. He gets the ball in good spots. That’s the offense. Simple as that

[Harry Callahan]

It's becoming clear that the 2024 and 2025 FRPs for SA will be very valuable. The level of interest on the defensive end is appalling tonight.

[John B]

Before the win over Suns, the Spurs got embarrassed by the Clippers with 40 pts. I'm hoping this humiliation would awaken them to play harder next game.

[Barfunk]

Cia Pop doing his part to get the Spurs to ATX, knows they won't show up to games after some losses :flag:

[Frenchfred]

The fun thing about this is that we know from the last five years of Spurs content that this will change absolutely nothing and the team will be like this all year.

I keep waffling on this every time we look somewhat possibly decent, but the truth is that we need another good and thorough tank. This will become even more evident when Devin's limitation as a ball-handler is exposed. Not saying his shot isn't absolutely insane, but we are going to need a boss at guard/wing.

We have to have a shooter and creator in one person.

I don’t know how long is Wemby going to stick around if the Spurs are getting obliterated and if he is not getting the ball. I don’t know if a rookie has asked for a trade before but he is competitive and might not want to stick around

[baseline bum]

The fun thing about this is that we know from the last five years of Spurs content that this will change absolutely nothing and the team will be like this all year.

I keep waffling on this every time we look somewhat possibly decent, but the truth is that we need another good and thorough tank. This will become even more evident when Devin's limitation as a ball-handler is exposed. Not saying his shot isn't absolutely insane, but we are going to need a boss at guard/wing.

We have to have a shooter and creator in one person.

Not really anyone to tank for. Wish Dame wasn't 33 already because the Spurs have the pieces to make a trade for a guy like that.

[Thomas82]

So another 40-point blowout huh?

[Fizziksman]

worst thing is rascal got a w/l prediction right

[Barfunk]

Pop just happy he's getting his sitting Wemby fix

[cd98]

All these pacer fans that spent big bucks to see Wemby play two quarters. That's how it goes sometimes.

[spurs10]

Very few posters here actually saw prime Tim Duncan. They are unaware that we actually had a franchise player that we gave the ball to like every fucking play. A lot of them only saw the beautiful game so they think that’s what we always did and what we should always do. It’s why you see people defending such and such player of taking shots instead of feeding the big man. Or defending the offense in general when slowing down the game and dropping it off and not shooting stupid shots could set up your defense, it could slow down the pace of the game, and it could get your team settled down. Instead the Spurs play chicken with its head cut off type of offense.

Luka gets the ball all the time. Tatum. Lebron. Joker. Steph. Giannis. KD. Embiid. These guys get the ball in spots they want it and they make plays for their teams and the offense revolves around them. It doesn’t revolve around the role players for them to take shots whenever the fuck they want. People here just don’t get the fact, we have a franchise player now. He gets the ball in good spots. That’s the offense. Simple as that 4 Down

[BatManu20]

Our defense is inexcusably awful tonight. The effort is complete trash. The old Pop would have these guys running suicides til they puke tomorrow morning.

[cd98]

I think it's less about the offense, and more about terrible defense. Bad transition defense. Bad three point line defense.

[Frenchfred]

Even their scrubs are better than ours.

[cd98]

But also the Pacers are having one of those shooting nights. With they way they are shooting tonight, they would beat most NBA teams tonight.

[baseline bum]

I think it's less about the offense, and more about terrible defense. Bad transition defense. Bad three point line defense.

Running Victor as your 4th or 5th option is beyond idiotic. The offense is nearly as dogshit as the defense.

[cd98]

Pacer fan gets 15 minutes of Wemby and probably paid top dollar for that game.

[024]

Expected the b2b to be ugly especially at how gassed Wemby looked in OT yesterday. Spurs showing just how far away they still are in being a playoff team. Seeing lots of expendable young players right now.

[LakerHater]

The Holts gotta Tom Landry Pop!!

[Harry Callahan]

Those sideline t-shirts should have said "Compete" and not "Vote". Maybe they thought today was election day and took the day off.

[taps]

2nd half I saw them attacking Malaki a lot he’s a sieve

[baseline bum]

The Holts gotta Tom Landry Pop!!

I wonder if Budenholzer would pull this crap on the offense.

[cd98]

Running Victor as your 4th or 5th option is beyond idiotic. The offense is nearly as dogshit as the defense.

Well, in the first half they scored plenty of points if there defense had not given up more. Wemby will grow in this offense and get more shots, but it's not like he didn't get shots. He shot the ball more than anyone but Keldon. I mean, even Tim Duncan rarely shot it 30 times a game. But tonight the Pacers were on fire. Not a lot that you can take from this game because it was one of those nights where they made everything.

[baseline bum]

I don't expect this to be a playoff team when Victor is 19 and joining a 22 win team but I never thought they'd freeze the franchise out either. Are they just pissed he calls for the ball a lot or something?

[NASpurs]

Spurs will give these guys a year so nothing is going to change personnel wise. Changes will come from within from the coaching staff (plays, lineups, etc) so get the liquor ready. :lol

[baseline bum]

Well, in the first half they scored plenty of points if there defense had not given up more. Wemby will grow in this offense and get more shots, but it's not like he didn't get shots. He shot the ball more than anyone but Keldon. I mean, even Tim Duncan rarely shot it 30 times a game. But tonight the Pacers were on fire. Not a lot that you can take from this game because it was one of those nights where they made everything.

Victor started calling his own number repeatedly since he knew he wasn't getting set up by anyone tonight.

[tim_duncan_fan]

What is the trick to defending the 3 and what are we teaching our players that happens to be wrong?

I feel like we have consistently sucked at defending the three for years, though I could be wrong about that. Today's game doesn't feel unusual or unfamiliar at all.

[Kawhi Duncan]

This is on Pop, tbh... He isn't running an offense that gets his best player the ball in attack positions... Come to think of it... The beautiful game offense wasn't even created by Pop... He needs to recruit an offensive coordinator

[Kawhi Duncan]

Victor isn't gonna like playing here if this keeps up

[Harry Callahan]

P*** poor effort from start to finish.

They'll probably win in New York on Wed, even though that would make no sense.

It's nice to have Wemby, but they are several players short when it comes to being a playoff contender (for an 8-10 seed).

This was bad basketball today. They hemoraged on defense for the last six and a half quarters with the OT yesterday. Pathetic.

I don't regret getting NBALP yet, but I'm starting to wonder if that was good way to spend my money.

[baseline bum]

Have the best prospect in 20 years but no, let's just play the offense the team ran last year that led them to 22 wins.

[spurraider21]

What is the trick to defending the 3 and what are we teaching our players that happens to be wrong?

I feel like we have consistently sucked at defending the three for years, though I could be wrong about that. Today's game doesn't feel unusual or unfamiliar at all.
always feels like we're playing 4 on 5 and in recovery mode. some unnecessary doubles/rotations and then playing catch-up. or doubling off a shooter on the strong side one pass away. if you are going to collapse on a ballhandler, has to come from the weak side. force a longer skip pass that gives you more time to rotate and recover.

they just seem disorganized. when player A doubles, player B rotates to cover player A's assigment, and then we aren't seeing anybody run to cover player B's man until after the pass is made to him.

our rebounding is also pretty bad at all positions. not boxing out well near the paint, and our perimeter players arent actively working to secure rebounds. we took some of what dejounte did for granted in that respect

but today also just looked like effort problems

[CGD]

I don't expect this to be a playoff team when Victor is 19 and joining a 22 win team but I never thought they'd freeze the franchise out either. Are they just pissed he calls for the ball a lot or something?

Maybe, but in fairness he’s not quite ready to handle the load on offense. He still gets pushed around a lot, shot selection can be iffy, stamina still a factor, and he insists on dibbling in traffic when he shouldn’t. All that will come, but I can definitely see why others (at Pops encouraging no doubt) go for their shots first some times.

[Ditty]

The overreactions in early November :lol

[SPURt]

Have the best prospect in 20 years but no, let's just play the offense the team ran last year that led them to 22 wins.
All of this

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Well that was fucktacular.

[NASpurs]

The overreactions in early November :lol

It's the same shit we've seen from the past few years except we've added Victor.

[rascal]

Maybe, but in fairness he’s not quite ready to handle the load on offense. He still gets pushed around a lot, shot selection can be iffy, stamina still a factor, and he insists on dibbling in traffic when he shouldn’t. All that will come, but I can definitely see why others (at Pops encouraging no doubt) go for their shots first some times.

Wemby will be fine. He needs a better supporting cast. He can't do it alone.

[baseline bum]

Maybe, but in fairness he’s not quite ready to handle the load on offense. He still gets pushed around a lot, shot selection can be iffy, stamina still a factor, and he insists on dibbling in traffic when he shouldn’t. All that will come, but I can definitely see why others (at Pops encouraging no doubt) go for their shots first some times.

Shot selection is iffy partly because he receives the ball so much at the three point line. I don't understand why they don't run him off some screens to open up shots at the top of the key, the elbow, etc. He's not a three point shooter at this point of his career but he's pretty effective when he can get the ball at 18 feet and get a quick shot off.

[ginobilized]

Haliburton would be perfect for the Spurs
I love Vassell, but, an elite distributor who can score and plays some D......ouch!

I need to look up the stats on defending the 3. Spurs have been horrible for years it seems to me

[Harry Callahan]

Austin is not going to be home for a pro team (MLB, NBA, NFL). They should happy getting a couple of Michael Dell games in Austin.

College town - that's all. The Spurs would be treated like second class citizens as a full time team there. UT runs that town. The UT basketball team has had to hustle to fill seats in the past at home.

The small Moody Center will help.

[baseline bum]

Maybe, but in fairness he’s not quite ready to handle the load on offense. He still gets pushed around a lot, shot selection can be iffy, stamina still a factor, and he insists on dibbling in traffic when he shouldn’t. All that will come, but I can definitely see why others (at Pops encouraging no doubt) go for their shots first some times.

Though it does make me want to pull my (non-existent) hair out when Victor pulls up for one of those Curry threes. If you're not Curry and you're not Lillard you shouldn't be shooting those unless you're against the clock or something.

[ginobilized]

Spurs were dead last in the league last season. Teams shot 39.1 from 3 against us for the SEASON

They are middle of the pack so far this year. Pacers are last for what it's worth.

[spurs10]

Victor started calling his own number repeatedly since he knew he wasn't getting set up by anyone tonight.


Have the best prospect in 20 years but no, let's just play the offense the team ran last year that led them to 22 wins. This

[Harry Callahan]

Haliburton would be perfect for the Spurs
I love Vassell, but, an elite distributor who can score and plays some D......ouch!

I need to look up the stats on defending the 3. Spurs have been horrible for years it seems to me

The Spurs passed on Halliburton - he would have been nice. Vassell is a quality player too - one or the other at the 2020 draft.

I don't like the way the PG rotation is going right now. I think we have one quality BACKUP point guard in Jones and a frontcourt player playing out of position. That spot needs reinforcements.

[spurraider21]

Herro and Reaves both playing well in that one

both guys that can be knockdown outside shooters, and have enough ball handling/passing ability to run some point when needed. both so, so much better than branham

[timtonymanu]

The overreactions in early November :lol

It’s gonna be up and down for sure but it’s frustrating seeing guys like Keldon and Zach freeze out Wemby and they stand there with their dumb looks like they don’t know how to pass him the ball.

[benefactor]

Wemby needs a couple veterans that understand he needs to have the ball. All these young assholes trying to hero ball are messing up everything. You are not him. Not even close

[Harry Callahan]

branham is not a point either. He can be a good rotation player with instant offense. The guy is still just a kid.

[LakerHater]

I wonder if Budenholzer would pull this crap on the offense.

Did Coach Bud 4dwn Giannis?

[Tyronn Lue]

P*** poor effort from start to finish.

They'll probably win in New York on Wed, even though that would make no sense.

It's nice to have Wemby, but they are several players short when it comes to being a playoff contender (for an 8-10 seed).

This was bad basketball today. They hemoraged on defense for the last six and a half quarters with the OT yesterday. Pathetic.

I don't regret getting NBALP yet, but I'm starting to wonder if that was good way to spend my money.
You only want to watch if they win?

[spurraider21]

Wemby needs a couple veterans that understand he needs to have the ball. All these young assholes trying to hero ball are messing up everything. You are not him. Not even close
i dont like westbrook but this is a hell of a story (youtube shorts dont embed here)


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xYi0PBD78PI

[benefactor]

I'd only keep Vassell. The rest can fuck off.

[John B]

What is the trick to defending the 3 and what are we teaching our players that happens to be wrong?

I feel like we have consistently sucked at defending the three for years, though I could be wrong about that. Today's game doesn't feel unusual or unfamiliar at all.

Spurs are playing zone because we have personnel who can float and help D fast, i.e Wemby, but the best way to beat the zone is to knockdown 3’s, simple. We gamble, but not every night teams will shoot 52.6 from the 3.

[BackHome]

People thought last year we were a playoff team and what happened - We lucked out and got the number 1 pick in the draft. People need to understand we just don't have the talent on this team I don't mind loosing/growing but there are only 3 things I am looking at for this season;

1. Can Wemby stay healthy for a whole season
2. Can Vassell stay healthy and improve from last season
3. Can Sochan play with Wemby while he is not playing PG

[Mugen]

At some point, you gotta realize that the Sochan at PG experiment is doing more long term harm than good in terms of the kids' confidence tbh. They badly need a table setter besides Tre on the roster. I hope they can address it by the deadline but they absolutely have to address it during the offseason tbh.

[timtonymanu]

At some point, you gotta realize that the Sochan at PG experiment is doing more long term harm than good in terms of the kids' confidence tbh. They badly need a table setter besides Tre on the roster. I hope they can address it by the deadline but they absolutely have to address it during the offseason tbh.

Knowing the old man, he will play contrarian “Jeremy can play PG,” and run that shit into the ground all season. And then the trade deadline comes around, a trade we wanted falls through and it’s the ole “we like what we have,” talk.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Wemby needs a couple veterans that understand he needs to have the ball. All these young assholes trying to hero ball are messing up everything. You are not him. Not even close

I am somewhat of the opposite opinion. These guys look so damn constipated most of the time. We'd be able to lessen the blows of opposing scoring sprees if these guys were a little more unconscious, a little more confident shooting the ball, more aggressive at the same time.

All it takes to get our guys to stop applying pressure to a defense is for the defender to be even halfway in decent defensive position. Our guys will not even attempt to turn the corner on them, scary timid asses. And then we think forever about threes too.

Just for the other team to turn around and nothing-but-net 3 threes in a row from three different players lmao

I kept thinking "shoot the fucking ball".

[jeebus]

You only want to watch if they win?

They're not competing. Their body language sucks. Why in the good fuck would anyone want to watch a whole season of that shit?

[spurraider21]

I am somewhat of the opposite opinion. These guys look so damn constipated most of the time. We'd be able to lessen the blows of opposing scoring sprees if these guys were a little more unconscious, a little more confident shooting the ball, more aggressive at the same time.

All it takes to get our guys to stop applying pressure to a defense is for the defender to be even halfway in decent defensive position. Our guys will not even attempt to turn the corner on them, scary timid asses. And then we think forever about threes too.

Just for the other team to turn around and nothing-but-net 3 threes in a row from three different players lmao

I kept thinking "shoot the fucking ball".
thats the problem when you assemble a roster with a lot of middling shooters. and thats even with Osman being uncharacteristically good from 3. branham, tre, sochan are all subpar shooters at their positions. vassell is good. keldon is... sufficient (but not when surrounded by other non-shooters). collins should be fine. he's had an abysmal start to the year but he should rebound. nevertheless, the exepctation isn't that he's a lights out shooter like porzingis that is going to bury 3's with just a sliver of daylight, but rather somebody who can keep defenses honest and not leave him unguarded.

victor is one of our more willing 3 point shooters right now, but he's not particularly efficient with them, yet. i do think a lot of that comes from his tendency to take bad 3's which drags his percentage down.

and then mcdermott has been lights out from 3 but is so bad as a defender and rebounder that its not even worth most of the times, but nice to have a potential spark like when he comes in and hits back to back 3's to keep the offense afloat. this team misses josh richardson tbh

[cd98]

7 games into the season and everyone wants to drop all but Wemby from the roster. Seriously, all these guys are young. They are going to lose some games by 40. And they will win some games against good teams. They will be inconsistent because young teams are inconsistent.

The Spurs purposely didn't add any veterans or make any trades because they want to see what they have. They will evaluate at the end of the season. By the end of the season, how we feel about players will likely change. And we'll know who is worth investing in beyond this year and who is not. But all these guys are young and there is a lot of basketball yet to play. If anyone here thought this team was a playoff team, then you have come with unrealistic expectations.

Just enjoy watching these guys grow and get better.

[PhantomDashCam]

7 games into the season and everyone wants to drop all but Wemby from the roster. Seriously, all these guys are young. They are going to lose some games by 40. And they will win some games against good teams. They will be inconsistent because young teams are inconsistent.

The Spurs purposely didn't add any veterans or make any trades because they want to see what they have. They will evaluate at the end of the season. By the end of the season, how we feel about players will likely change. And we'll know who is worth investing in beyond this year and who is not. But all these guys are young and there is a lot of basketball yet to play. If anyone here thought this team was a playoff team, then you have come with unrealistic expectations.

Just enjoy watching these guys grow and get better.

Well said. I still think they will be in contention for a playoff spot when it is all said and done though too.
They've played well for about 40% of actual game time and still have 3 dubs.

[rascal]

Well said. I still think they will be in contention for a playoff spot when it is all said and done though too.
They've played well for about 40% of actual game time and still have 3 dubs.

There will always be Homers until the bitter end to accept reality.

This is not a playoff team this year.

[cd98]

Well said. I still think they will be in contention for a playoff spot when it is all said and done though too.
They've played well for about 40% of actual game time and still have 3 dubs.

I get it and it would be great if the Spurs could make the playoffs, but the Western Conference is loaded this year. Just looking past the Spurs, who thinks the Nuggets, Timberwolves, Clippers, Lakers, Suns, and Kings are not making the playoffs? That's six teams. The Mavs are playing good basketball. The Warriors have a ton of championship experience. The Thunder have more advanced talent than the Spurs. The Pelicans are loaded. I mean, I see Nuggets, Mavs, Pelicans, Timberwolves, Clippers, Lakers, Suns, and Kings making the playoffs. Maybe the Thunder makes a move. The Rockets are all-in on trying to make the playoffs. I just don't see that the Spurs can win more than any of these teams except the Rockets.

[KobesAchilles]

7 games into the season and everyone wants to drop all but Wemby from the roster. Seriously, all these guys are young. They are going to lose some games by 40. And they will win some games against good teams. They will be inconsistent because young teams are inconsistent.

The Spurs purposely didn't add any veterans or make any trades because they want to see what they have. They will evaluate at the end of the season. By the end of the season, how we feel about players will likely change. And we'll know who is worth investing in beyond this year and who is not. But all these guys are young and there is a lot of basketball yet to play. If anyone here thought this team was a playoff team, then you have come with unrealistic expectations.

Just enjoy watching these guys grow and get better.
A couple of counter points that I feel are valid

Vets are a very necessary part of a changing culture. TC was needed for David. Doc Rivers. David was needed for Tim. Same with Smitty and Kevin Willis and Mario Ellie. These types of vets change cultures and help franchises grow. It doesn’t have to be on the court but behind the scenes in practices and getting the team in the correct mindset. So by not getting Vets, that isn’t the Spurs saying that we need to see what we have. We could’ve still done that AND get good vets. They aren’t exclusive to each other. The heat for instance have the corpse of Haslem.

And second, most of our players aren’t going to be a part of our franchise going forward. That’s just a reality. You can choose not to accept that reality, but we have 10 draft picks in 5 years. Guys are getting replaced. Guys are also going to get traded. This team won 23 games last year. They are talent devoid. Even if they do grow, realistically only about 3 will still be on the team in 5 years from now.

And lastly, it’s hard to enjoy watching guys “get better” and “growing” when they aren’t getting better and they aren’t growing. I mean seriously, outside of Tre and Vassell, who has grown? Nobody that I can tell. All the same weaknesses they had last year, they still have this year. But this year the role players aren’t playing like role players and are freezing out the star player. To me, I want to see the general lead the the troops follow. And nobody is doing it. Zack shoots all the time, Sochan is a mess, KJ is hero balling for no reason. There’s no real pecking order in our offense and they’re sure as heck needs to be one. You need to have a pecking order in the game of basketball. Wemby is first and these primadonna players better start figuring that shit out fast and fall in line or else they are gone. It’s as simple as that.

[dbestpro]

Starting to think the only players worth keeping next to Victor are Devin and Tre.

Tre has been getting scorched on defense.

[spurs1990]

Wemby goes for 41 tonight


Might give up 150 this game :lol Not sure how long Victor can play in spurts at this pace either, tbh

Both of you gentlemen were spot on in one way or another. Two 40 pt thrashings in 7 games thrown in with two spectacular wins at Phoenix. To borrow the yearbook video title of the 1989-1990 season, it’s gonna be a season to remember.

[cd98]

A couple of counter points that I feel are valid

Vets are a very necessary part of a changing culture. TC was needed for David. Doc Rivers. David was needed for Tim. Same with Smitty and Kevin Willis and Mario Ellie. These types of vets change cultures and help franchises grow. It doesn’t have to be on the court but behind the scenes in practices and getting the team in the correct mindset. So by not getting Vets, that isn’t the Spurs saying that we need to see what we have. We could’ve still done that AND get good vets. They aren’t exclusive to each other. The heat for instance have the corpse of Haslem.

And second, most of our players aren’t going to be a part of our franchise going forward. That’s just a reality. You can choose not to accept that reality, but we have 10 draft picks in 5 years. Guys are getting replaced. Guys are also going to get traded. This team won 23 games last year. They are talent devoid. Even if they do grow, realistically only about 3 will still be on the team in 5 years from now.

And lastly, it’s hard to enjoy watching guys “get better” and “growing” when they aren’t getting better and they aren’t growing. I mean seriously, outside of Tre and Vassell, who has grown? Nobody that I can tell. All the same weaknesses they had last year, they still have this year. But this year the role players aren’t playing like role players and are freezing out the star player. To me, I want to see the general lead the the troops follow. And nobody is doing it. Zack shoots all the time, Sochan is a mess, KJ is hero balling for no reason. There’s no real pecking order in our offense and they’re sure as heck needs to be one. You need to have a pecking order in the game of basketball. Wemby is first and these primadonna players better start figuring that shit out fast and fall in line or else they are gone. It’s as simple as that.

Well, first, I think it might have benefited the Spurs to get a few more veterans. Really it's just Osman and McD. I suppose the Spurs brass felt it better to surround the young guys with Tim, Manu, and Parker. That helps off the court, but obviously doesn't help them to execute on the court.

My guess is the Spurs didn't want to tie up salary until they knew where they wanted to invest their dollars and they probably did not have any veteran free agents that they were interested in. Also, if they don't make the playoffs, it's an opportunity to add more draft capital.

Regardless, people rip on Sochan because he's not a natural point guard. It takes most guys 2-3 years to become good point guards in the NBA, if they ever get there. People say...but Tony...well Tony did start, but he also sucked relative to all star point guards his first few years in the league. He couldn't hit a jumper to save his life and people backed off him like 5 feet. But over 3-4 years he worked like hell on his jumpshot and one year, all of a sudden, he had a lethal mid range jumper that made him almost unguardable for a number of years. Sochan has tons of raw athleticism and even though he's not highly skilled at any one thing, he is a guy that has the potential to become good at many things and is the perfect guy to compliment other stars. Give him time. Give Branham time. They will get better during the year and so will Wemby.

You don't quit on players two years into their career. At a minimum, you give them 3 years, unless they flash their therapist.

[boutons_deux]

When the spurs are good, they are pretty good

When the spurs are bad, they are extremely horribly disgustingly bad

[JeffDuncan]

…
You don't quit on players two years into their career. At a minimum, you give them 3 years, …


That’s a cute little theory you have, but it leaves out an important factor. Wemby can leave.

Wemby just saw Haliburton do a really sweet job of playing point guard. The Spurs don’t even have a passable NBA point guard. You think he didn’t notice the difference?

The clock is ticking, and it’s amazing how fast the time can go by. The Spurs need to get their act together, starting yesterday.

The Spurs have exactly one player whose development really matters for the future of the franchise. That’s the bottom line. By comparison, the development of Sochan, Jones, or whoever isn’t worth dog poop on the sidewalk. They are all replaceable, but Wemby is not.

[MannyIsGod]

7 games into the season and everyone wants to drop all but Wemby from the roster. Seriously, all these guys are young. They are going to lose some games by 40. And they will win some games against good teams. They will be inconsistent because young teams are inconsistent.

The Spurs purposely didn't add any veterans or make any trades because they want to see what they have. They will evaluate at the end of the season. By the end of the season, how we feel about players will likely change. And we'll know who is worth investing in beyond this year and who is not. But all these guys are young and there is a lot of basketball yet to play. If anyone here thought this team was a playoff team, then you have come with unrealistic expectations.

Just enjoy watching these guys grow and get better.

How many years of play do we need to know what these players are though? I've been as high on Keldon as anyone but if you're running your offense through him then its not going to be very good. Do we really need to see ANOTHER year of that to understand it? I was a proponent of trying Sochan at point guard, but he is just mimicing what Keldon does and taking inefficient shots in the paint. I honestly don't think we need to see more of that this year because while I was OK with it, atrociousness of it so far has made me understand its never going to work. While I think at times he showed some vision last year, this season is almost entirely devoid of it and the time with him at PG is just really awful. Do we expect Zach Collins to take magical steps forward?

It would be one thing if we were talking about someone who could turn out to be a key factor going forward like Blake Wesley but he's not even playing. We're a team that is obviously not trying to win and have no point guards and the one young point guard prospect we have can't even see the floor! This is literally the 3rd year in a row of "lets see what we have" with this core. They are what they are and while a few are not awful pieces we don't need to spend a year running inefficent bully ball to know that for sure. If anything I want to see what we have with them acting as role players to the biggest obvious talent on the team.

What is frustrating isn't that we're losing, it's that we're doing shit incredibly stupidly and just doing everything we did last year as if we didn't just get a guy that could potentially make an All NBA team as a fucking ROOKIE! Its just fucking insanity.

[Atl Spur]

Rotations will be set within the next 5-10 games or so; Pop is clearly evaluating.

[Fireball]

that went as expected ... yikes

[MI21]

Regardless, people rip on Sochan because he's not a natural point guard. It takes most guys 2-3 years to become good point guards in the NBA, if they ever get there. People say...but Tony...well Tony did start, but he also sucked relative to all star point guards his first few years in the league. He couldn't hit a jumper to save his life and people backed off him like 5 feet. But over 3-4 years he worked like hell on his jumpshot and one year, all of a sudden, he had a lethal mid range jumper that made him almost unguardable for a number of years. Sochan has tons of raw athleticism and even though he's not highly skilled at any one thing, he is a guy that has the potential to become good at many things and is the perfect guy to compliment other stars. Give him time. Give Branham time. They will get better during the year and so will Wemby.

You don't quit on players two years into their career. At a minimum, you give them 3 years, unless they flash their therapist.

Tony was scorching a peak Gary Payton in the playoffs as a rookie and averaging 21/5/4 through 3 games in the fucking NBA Finals against Jason Kidd in his second year, which people for some reason forget in favour of maintaining the :cry Speedy Claxton :cry legend. Not saying I disagree with your premise, but special players typically show it pretty early.

[tim_duncan_fan]

The core of frustration is somewhat two-fold, both folds arguably unfair for us to bitch about, one definitely is.

OK, Spurs didn''t have a really good player to pair with Wemby. Thats something the Spurs couldn't control, and if they had a good player already, they probably wouldn't have Wemby.

The other fold though, is that it appears staff had no inkling of an idea of what they would do with the billion-dollar prospect of they happened to draw him. It is arguable that they shouldn't have any idea, and it's arguable that they have an idea but are just letting things happen for the sake of experimentation.

Either way, a plan or the illusion of a plan of how to start pointing Wemby in the best direction better start to form. If the fans are loud and impatient, wait until the media decides Vic needs an uncle, cause that time will be here before long.

The team should at least look like coaches prepared them for the game. They didn't look prepared tonight, and that is what is triggering people. Most don't really care that we had less points than the other team in a November game. It's the tragic look of the team composition and the appearance that we are going to waste Vic, as if we are the Knicks, that is ultimately bugging people.

It's arguable that we shouldn't be worried the Spurs are wasting him 7 games into a season, but it's also arguable and likely that most of the world wants Vic to have an uncle. The Spurs need to not be looking stupid. People are watching.

[Jay.From.NbTx]

I hope they left Jeremy Sochan in Indy. Maybe he can work at a hair salon or something over there.

[stephen jackson]

Lol we losing wemby sooner rather than later was fun while it lasted

[cd98]

Tony was scorching a peak Gary Payton in the playoffs as a rookie and averaging 21/5/4 through 3 games in the fucking NBA Finals against Jason Kidd in his second year, which people for some reason forget in favour of maintaining the :cry Speedy Claxton :cry legend. Not saying I disagree with your premise, but special players typically show it pretty early.

Tony was elite at speed and finishing at the rim, but once teams figured out he couldn’t shoot, they backed off him and I remember the Lakers just shutting him down. It took probably 3-4 years for him to get a workable jumper. And that was when he became the top offensive player on the team and an all NBA player.

Just by example, Sochan has played one year in the NBA but never probably in his life has he played PG. But he’s tall, he can handle the ball ok, and he can move his feet and guard perimeter players. Give him the same time you gave Tony, and then judge him. He’ll have 20+ points a game this season. And I’ll bet he has 10 assist games. Maybe he’ll never be a PG but why quit after 7 games? I mean if he could be a 6’8 PG, that would be very handy. And he’s one of the 5 best players on the roster so they need to find a way to get him on the court since his PF minutes go to Wemby.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

That’s a cute little theory you have, but it leaves out an important factor. Wemby can leave.

Wemby just saw Haliburton do a really sweet job of playing point guard. The Spurs don’t even have a passable NBA point guard. You think he didn’t notice the difference?

The clock is ticking, and it’s amazing how fast the time can go by. The Spurs need to get their act together, starting yesterday.

The Spurs have exactly one player whose development really matters for the future of the franchise. That’s the bottom line. By comparison, the development of Sochan, Jones, or whoever isn’t worth dog poop on the sidewalk. They are all replaceable, but Wemby is not.
that's it
he will request a trade tomorrow

[wildbill2u]

Sochan couldn't start for his college team and yet he was drafted high and put into the rotation as a rookie, based on his physical abilities, not his skillset. He may well develop some skills and find his natural position, but I doubt it will be this year. He is being rushed into a position in the NBA at a pace far beyond his current abilities. What happens when the coaching braintrust finally decides he just may not make it as a PG? I hope it doesn't ruin him.

[Kawhi Duncan]

A PG needs to be able to drive really good, or pass really good... Sohan can't do either... U either have it or don't... Secondly, what drives me crazy is there's no offensive structure based around Wemby's talents... They're just playing pick up ball... Don't let Duncan fool u... Guys WILL leave... It's one thing if Wemby misses a ton of shots in his spots in a structured offense... It's another thing if he doesn't look like he will get to shoot more than 10 times a game unless he calls his own number half of the time

[spursparker9]

A PG needs to be able to drive really good, or pass really good... Sohan can't do either... U either have it or don't... Secondly, what drives me crazy is there's no offensive structure based around Wemby's talents... They're just playing pick up ball... Don't let Duncan fool u... Guys WILL leave... It's one thing if Wemby misses a ton of shots in his spots in a structured offense... It's another thing if he doesn't look like he will get to shoot more than 10 times a game unless he calls his own number half of the time

:pop: But he can defend the smaller sized PG. :lol:

[Ice009]

How many years of play do we need to know what these players are though? I've been as high on Keldon as anyone but if you're running your offense through him then its not going to be very good. Do we really need to see ANOTHER year of that to understand it? I was a proponent of trying Sochan at point guard, but he is just mimicing what Keldon does and taking inefficient shots in the paint. I honestly don't think we need to see more of that this year because while I was OK with it, atrociousness of it so far has made me understand its never going to work. While I think at times he showed some vision last year, this season is almost entirely devoid of it and the time with him at PG is just really awful. Do we expect Zach Collins to take magical steps forward?

It would be one thing if we were talking about someone who could turn out to be a key factor going forward like Blake Wesley but he's not even playing. We're a team that is obviously not trying to win and have no point guards and the one young point guard prospect we have can't even see the floor! This is literally the 3rd year in a row of "lets see what we have" with this core. They are what they are and while a few are not awful pieces we don't need to spend a year running inefficent bully ball to know that for sure. If anything I want to see what we have with them acting as role players to the biggest obvious talent on the team.

What is frustrating isn't that we're losing, it's that we're doing shit incredibly stupidly and just doing everything we did last year as if we didn't just get a guy that could potentially make an All NBA team as a fucking ROOKIE! Its just fucking insanity.

I just watched the game. Terrible loss/performance from these guys. Not sure if they were physically tired, mentally drained from last night's loss, or both. Not sure what to say about that, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Some of these guys have had enough time to prove if they're going to be great or not, and/or what they're capable of doing (referring to Keldon here). Maybe he deserves a bit more time as maybe he can still grow into a playmaking role. I am also not sure why the Spurs are forcing Sochan to play PG.

BTW, do you really think Blake Wesley is a legit possible PG prospect for the team going forward?

The "they are what they are" thing, I'm not sure that applies to everyone. What about Devin Vassell. He's really showing some serious improvement and he's been here a few years now too. It looks like he's taking a bit step forward this season if he can stay healthy. I do agree with the point about seeing how a lot of these players can play as role players around Victor rather than treating Victor as just one of the guys. That is the stupidest thing I've seen so far. Victor and Devin are the two best players on the team, everyone else should be playing around them, not Vic trying to fit in as one of the guys.

[JADG79]

Two 40-point losses in the last 5 games and two 20-point comebacks in the last 2, last night was another unwatchable game.

Really there was not many PG free agents this offseason, Dennis Schroder and Vincent.

Other players that could be available for trade
- Brogdon: Injury prone, will cost 1FRP and not in our timeline.
- Killian Hayes: Is playing more time with Monty and he will be restricted free agent next season.
- Immanuel Quickley: He wants $25M per season, he is more a scorer than floor general.
- Tyus Jones: He is not performing so well in Wash.

[Bruno]

What an ugly game. Spurs bounce back well after the huge loss @ Clippers, we'll see if they are able to do the same this time.

Spurs have still a long way to go before being a contender:

- Wembanyama: He is a awesome you players. He still has a lot to learn, which is logical at 19, but he should be top5 players quite qucikly.

- Vassell: If he stays healthy, he would be a great third option. He doesn't have the ballhandling/creativity to be more.

- Keldon Johnson: He has a narrow window of utility for a team. He can't carry too much offensive load like last season showed, but he also isn't a good role player because he isn't a great shooter and defender. He is currently fine with the team but it might not last. Trading him will likely be the right move in the future.

- Zach Collins: he is a 20mpg rotation big and nothing more. He is a quite good offensive player but he too limited physically to be a defensive/rebounding force which is a big issue for a center.

- Tre Jones: a 15 mpg average backup PG.

- Sochan: Hard to say with the PG bullshit, to be determined...

- Rest of the roster: I don't see a diamond in the rough among them for the moment.

[sfernald]

This is so true. The reality is maybe there is one future Wemby teammate on the roster. The rest are literally too flawed to be of any use on a playoff team. They need to try to pull off a trade for their future number two (“robin”) this year somehow or this year will be a complete failure.

[Manu20]

This team is severely lacking talent...One positive note is that Wemby looks better than advertised if that was even possible. His basketball instincts/skills/feel for the game is off the charts for a 19 year old and the crazy thing is that he could easily be averaging 4+ blocks a game but opposing players rarely challenge Wemby :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Running the offense through Keldon is just stupid. This isn't tank for Wemby times, it's just asinine to put the ball in his hands and expect offensive greatness.

[Seventyniner]

Luka gets the ball all the time. Tatum. Lebron. Joker. Steph. Giannis. KD. Embiid. These guys get the ball in spots they want it and they make plays for their teams and the offense revolves around them. It doesn’t revolve around the role players for them to take shots whenever the fuck they want. People here just don’t get the fact, we have a franchise player now. He gets the ball in good spots. That’s the offense. Simple as that

I looked up the age and usage rate for each of the players on your list in their rookie seasons. It's quite the mixed bag.

Doncic: age 19, USG% 30.5
Tatum: age 19, USG% 19.4
LeBron: age 18, USG% 28.8
Jokic: age 20, USG% 19.9
Curry: age 21, USG% 21.8
Giannis: age 19, USG% 15.0
Durant: age 19, USG% 28.1
Embiid: age 22, USG% 36.0
Wemby: age 19, USG% 30.5

Embiid is the outlier here, but he was also 22 in his first season. The other players on this list had high usage rates by their age 22 season.

A usage rate of 30.5% as a 19-year-old rookie is pretty high. I'm not sure what the expectation is here.

[MannyIsGod]

I looked up the age and usage rate for each of the players on your list in their rookie seasons. It's quite the mixed bag.

Doncic: age 19, USG% 30.5
Tatum: age 19, USG% 19.4
LeBron: age 18, USG% 28.8
Jokic: age 20, USG% 19.9
Curry: age 21, USG% 21.8
Giannis: age 19, USG% 15.0
Durant: age 19, USG% 28.1
Embiid: age 22, USG% 36.0
Wemby: age 19, USG% 30.5

Embiid is the outlier here, but he was also 22 in his first season. The other players on this list had high usage rates by their age 22 season.

A usage rate of 30.5% as a 19-year-old rookie is pretty high. I'm not sure what the expectation is here.

Usage looks high because Wemby is taking loads of frustration 3s right now. Watching the game shows a much different story than just looking at stats

[cd98]

I looked up the age and usage rate for each of the players on your list in their rookie seasons. It's quite the mixed bag.

Doncic: age 19, USG% 30.5
Tatum: age 19, USG% 19.4
LeBron: age 18, USG% 28.8
Jokic: age 20, USG% 19.9
Curry: age 21, USG% 21.8
Giannis: age 19, USG% 15.0
Durant: age 19, USG% 28.1
Embiid: age 22, USG% 36.0
Wemby: age 19, USG% 30.5

Embiid is the outlier here, but he was also 22 in his first season. The other players on this list had high usage rates by their age 22 season.

A usage rate of 30.5% as a 19-year-old rookie is pretty high. I'm not sure what the expectation is here.

It's because people think Wemby needs to shoot 50 times a game and that somehow will lead the Spurs to 50 regular season wins and the playoffs. Wemby sees the ball a lot and as he gets better adjusted and as the team feels more comfortable giving him 30+ minutes, he'll get more shots than he is now, but if it turns into a one man team, the Spurs will lose every game.

I find it funny how the rest of the NBA has taken note that the Spurs have good, young players and they have tons of draft picks. Logic holds that you can't sign every one of your draft picks to big salaries. So you have to evaluate where you are going to invest your salary cap money. Wemby and Vassell are obvious. Everyone else is being evaluated. But seriously, people need to give lottery picks more than a year to develop. Most NBA players need at three years to develop into a good NBA player. That's why rookie contracts are for three years and then options. People don't get that this team was never going to win 40 games and probably not more than 30. The Spurs have said they will be patient in building around Wemby. Let's see what we have instead of being reactive and running out and paying VanVleet, Brooks, Jock Landale, and Green so we can barely make the play in and have no upside down the road.

[Seventyniner]

Usage looks high because Wemby is taking loads of frustration 3s right now. Watching the game shows a much different story than just looking at stats

Looking at his season totals, he is:

36-67 from two
12-37 from three
37 FTA (including 5 and ones, for ~16 possessions used)
25 turnovers


That's a total of 67 + 37 + 16 + 25 = 145 possessions used, out of about 475 (145 / 0.305) that the Spurs have had total while he's on the floor. That might not be exact but it shouldn't be far off.

Let's say 13 of those 3PA (around 1/3) were out of frustration, and if he hadn't taken those he would have used up 28% of those possessions himself instead of 100%. Now his total possessions used would be 145 - 13 + 0.28 * 13, or around 136.

Out of 475 total possessions that's a usage rate of 28.6%, for a difference of 1.9%. Not an insignificant difference, but still well above players like Jokic, Tatum, and Giannis in their rookie seasons.

I have watched most of the total minutes the Spurs have played this year, mainly missing the first half against Dallas and the second halves against the Clippers and Pacers. In case you're trying to imply that I haven't watched the games. But I didn't watch much of the rookie seasons of the other players you mentioned so usage rate seemed like the best way to compare them to Wemby.

[ambchang]

If Wemby is jacking up frustration 3s then that's on him. He shouldn't.

[KobesAchilles]

I looked up the age and usage rate for each of the players on your list in their rookie seasons. It's quite the mixed bag.

Doncic: age 19, USG% 30.5
Tatum: age 19, USG% 19.4
LeBron: age 18, USG% 28.8
Jokic: age 20, USG% 19.9
Curry: age 21, USG% 21.8
Giannis: age 19, USG% 15.0
Durant: age 19, USG% 28.1
Embiid: age 22, USG% 36.0
Wemby: age 19, USG% 30.5

Embiid is the outlier here, but he was also 22 in his first season. The other players on this list had high usage rates by their age 22 season.

A usage rate of 30.5% as a 19-year-old rookie is pretty high. I'm not sure what the expectation is here.
You misunderstood. I’m not talking about these guys according to their rookie year. I mean Wemby is a top 10 player NOW. None of those guys were rookie year. Wemby is that special. He’s not Duncan rookie year but I expect him to be damn close.

It’s not the usage I have the problem with. It’s where we get him the ball. If you’re 7’4 guy is in the post calling for the ball and you can’t inbound pass to him so he has to go to the 3 point line to get that ball, that is usage, but not proper usage. Also to those people saying well we expect him to shoot 50 times a game. How about not be outshot by Zack Collins and KJ. We can start with that. I had called Wemby would get outshot in games by Vassell and KJ but I never thought Zach Collins would be averaging only 3 shots less. That’s insane.

Also Sochan isn’t a PG. you could give him 5 years and it wouldn’t change that fact. It’s ok. Im not shitting on Sochan. It just seems like I am bc I said he is a high energy bench guy and not a PG. A good bench is vital for a winning team and Sochan can one day work his way to our starting PF once he gets a jump shot

[Thomas82]

Wemby needs a couple veterans that understand he needs to have the ball. All these young assholes trying to hero ball are messing up everything. You are not him. Not even close

ALL of this!!

[cd98]

If Wemby is jacking up frustration 3s then that's on him. He shouldn't.

I agree, but I think people are wrong. I think he likes the three point shot as it is the easiest one for him to take. He doesn't have to dribble to get to his spot, he can't really be guarded on it, and he doesn't have to post up or try and get good position down low. And if bigs guard him on it and play him high, he can dribble past them and get a dunk. I don't think he just sits out at the three point line in frustration and then jacks up a low percentage shot. The 3 point shot will always be a part of his game.

[boutons_deux]

Tony was scorching a peak Gary Payton in the playoffs as a rookie and averaging 21/5/4 through 3 games in the fucking NBA Finals against Jason Kidd in his second year, which people for some reason forget in favour of maintaining the :cry Speedy Claxton :cry legend. Not saying I disagree with your premise, but special players typically show it pretty early.

2003 Finals, TP9 was so hot in the early games, he was mentioned as potential Finals MVP, whatever the F his jumper was doing

[cd98]

You misunderstood. I’m not talking about these guys according to their rookie year. I mean Wemby is a top 10 player NOW. None of those guys were rookie year. Wemby is that special. He’s not Duncan rookie year but I expect him to be damn close.

It’s not the usage I have the problem with. It’s where we get him the ball. If you’re 7’4 guy is in the post calling for the ball and you can’t inbound pass to him so he has to go to the 3 point line to get that ball, that is usage, but not proper usage. Also to those people saying well we expect him to shoot 50 times a game. How about not be outshot by Zack Collins and KJ. We can start with that. I had called Wemby would get outshot in games by Vassell and KJ but I never thought Zach Collins would be averaging only 3 shots less. That’s insane.

Also Sochan isn’t a PG. you could give him 5 years and it wouldn’t change that fact. It’s ok. Im not shitting on Sochan. It just seems like I am bc I said he is a high energy bench guy and not a PG. A good bench is vital for a winning team and Sochan can one day work his way to our starting PF once he gets a jump shot

Not to let stats get in the way, but maybe those other guys get more shots because they play more minutes than Wemby. The other starters play at least two more minutes a game on average. Also, Wemby averages the most shot attempts on the team, then Keldon, and then Vassell. Collins is averaging 3 less shots a game than Wemby while playing more minutes. And I hate to break it to you, but Collins is a pretty good offensive player. He's got a three point shot that merits taking it to help spread the court and he has a pretty good post up game. I mean, he's shooting over 50%. Now his three point shot will ebb and flow, but if he finishes the year at 32%, he'll be good enough that it pulls bigs out of the lane and that helps every other player on the team get better shots.

I don't think anyone here has any experience in training players to play point guard in the NBA to be able to say Sochan has no shot at playing point guard. I mean, maybe he will never be that. People said the same thing about DJM when he couldn't dribble the ball against NBA point guards the first two years of his career (we called him a high dribbler). When the Spurs would be well to win 35 games, it is worth experimenting, especially when you know you have a 6'8 guy that can guard any point guard or shooting guard on the perimeter and can post up on any guard too. He's not the perfect player and he has flaws, but let's give him the same time we gave Kawhi, Parker, DJM, etc to develop before we give up. Thankfully, the Spurs are not so reactive.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Looking at his season totals, he is:

36-67 from two
12-37 from three
37 FTA (including 5 and ones, for ~16 possessions used)
25 turnovers


That's a total of 67 + 37 + 16 + 25 = 145 possessions used, out of about 475 (145 / 0.305) that the Spurs have had total while he's on the floor. That might not be exact but it shouldn't be far off.

Let's say 13 of those 3PA (around 1/3) were out of frustration, and if he hadn't taken those he would have used up 28% of those possessions himself instead of 100%. Now his total possessions used would be 145 - 13 + 0.28 * 13, or around 136.

Out of 475 total possessions that's a usage rate of 28.6%, for a difference of 1.9%. Not an insignificant difference, but still well above players like Jokic, Tatum, and Giannis in their rookie seasons.

I have watched most of the total minutes the Spurs have played this year, mainly missing the first half against Dallas and the second halves against the Clippers and Pacers. In case you're trying to imply that I haven't watched the games. But I didn't watch much of the rookie seasons of the other players you mentioned so usage rate seemed like the best way to compare them to Wemby.

None of those guys were viewed as generational talents as rookies... Wemby should be compared to the usage rates of guys like Duncan, Shaq and LeBron... Who were considered generational as a rookie... The offense was actually structured around them from day 1... Duncan took 1/5th of the shots for the entire team... Wemby doesn't have an offense structured around him, so he gets visibly frustrated and takes shots as soon as he gets the ball late in games because ppl ignore him for most of the game

[Kawhi Duncan]

If Wemby is jacking up frustration 3s then that's on him. He shouldn't.

Structure an offense around him and he won't... We can wag our fingers all he wants, but when he leaves, that's on the Pop enablers

[Kawhi Duncan]

Not to let stats get in the way, but maybe those other guys get more shots because they play more minutes than Wemby. The other starters play at least two more minutes a game on average. Also, Wemby averages the most shot attempts on the team, then Keldon, and then Vassell. Collins is averaging 3 less shots a game than Wemby while playing more minutes. And I hate to break it to you, but Collins is a pretty good offensive player. He's got a three point shot that merits taking it to help spread the court and he has a pretty good post up game. I mean, he's shooting over 50%. Now his three point shot will ebb and flow, but if he finishes the year at 32%, he'll be good enough that it pulls bigs out of the lane and that helps every other player on the team get better shots.

I don't think anyone here has any experience in training players to play point guard in the NBA to be able to say Sochan has no shot at playing point guard. I mean, maybe he will never be that. People said the same thing about DJM when he couldn't dribble the ball against NBA point guards the first two years of his career (we called him a high dribbler). When the Spurs would be well to win 35 games, it is worth experimenting, especially when you know you have a 6'8 guy that can guard any point guard or shooting guard on the perimeter and can post up on any guard too. He's not the perfect player and he has flaws, but let's give him the same time we gave Kawhi, Parker, DJM, etc to develop before we give up. Thankfully, the Spurs are not so reactive.

Don't compare Murray to Sohan... Murray was an actual PG with ball handle skills... In high school he had some crossover highlights that made ppl compare him to Jamal Crawford... Ppl overreacted to him being embarrassed his first time in the playoffs vs an elite defender...

[tim_duncan_fan]

Keldon got 16 points, 3 boards, 3 assists in 23 minutes of action. 50% shooting.

He wasn't inefficient and the offense was not run through him.

Not sure why people are saying that.


Edit: 0 turnovers



I agree, but I think people are wrong. I think he likes the three point shot as it is the easiest one for him to take. He doesn't have to dribble to get to his spot, he can't really be guarded on it, and he doesn't have to post up or try and get good position down low. And if bigs guard him on it and play him high, he can dribble past them and get a dunk. I don't think he just sits out at the three point line in frustration and then jacks up a low percentage shot. The 3 point shot will always be a part of his game.

Right. He is out there because he wants to be out there.

That's not to say his teammates don't miss him at times when he does have good position a lot because they do, but defaulting to early threes is him being him.

[KobesAchilles]

Not to let stats get in the way, but maybe those other guys get more shots because they play more minutes than Wemby. The other starters play at least two more minutes a game on average. Also, Wemby averages the most shot attempts on the team, then Keldon, and then Vassell. Collins is averaging 3 less shots a game than Wemby while playing more minutes. And I hate to break it to you, but Collins is a pretty good offensive player. He's got a three point shot that merits taking it to help spread the court and he has a pretty good post up game. I mean, he's shooting over 50%. Now his three point shot will ebb and flow, but if he finishes the year at 32%, he'll be good enough that it pulls bigs out of the lane and that helps every other player on the team get better shots.

I don't think anyone here has any experience in training players to play point guard in the NBA to be able to say Sochan has no shot at playing point guard. I mean, maybe he will never be that. People said the same thing about DJM when he couldn't dribble the ball against NBA point guards the first two years of his career (we called him a high dribbler). When the Spurs would be well to win 35 games, it is worth experimenting, especially when you know you have a 6'8 guy that can guard any point guard or shooting guard on the perimeter and can post up on any guard too. He's not the perfect player and he has flaws, but let's give him the same time we gave Kawhi, Parker, DJM, etc to develop before we give up. Thankfully, the Spurs are not so reactive.
You know I keep hearing to wait several years but it doesn’t make sense. Parker could dribble the ball and was an elite finisher at the rim from day one. He couldn’t really shoot that well but he beat his man off the dribble and torched GP his rookie year. It was the stuff of legends. And by 03 he really came into his own. Yeah he shit the bed in 3 finals games but he had a very good postseason run that year and he had elite speed with the ball in his hands from day 1.

Kawhi was on a team with 3 HOFs so we could afford to be patient. And something we never did was put Kawhi as PG. Why? Bc it’s stupid to do. He wasn’t a point guard. We gave him small incremental goals that were actually tangible for him to reach. That’s quite the opposite of Sochan. We are doing too many things at once with him. I might not have created a PG before but I know that chasing too many goals at once is bad for development. Ok Sochan work on defense of guards. Now work on dribbling. Now work on pick n roll. Work on shooting. Work on creating for others. Work on inbounding to Vic. Work on drive and kicks. Work on pocket passes in the free throw area and deep in the lane. Work on clock management. Work on feeling when to get guys the ball. Work on running the whole team. Work on setting up everything. And work on instincts for the position. It’s too much shit man. Idk why I’m the only one who believes that btw.

sidenote- it took DJ 5 years to be a decent PG (not elite) and if it takes Sochan 5 years to be that then we are screwed as a franchise either way. Also DJ isn’t a PG anymore where he currently is. Tre is the PG. So it took 5 years to learn only for him to now be a SG.

And sidenote 2- Wemby leading the team in shots by one shot isn’t a good thing. If we had Duncan and Elliott was averaging 1 shot less than him I would think our offense is pretty stupid. And if Mario Ellie only averaged 3 shots less than Duncan (yes even rookie Duncan) then I would be like stop shooting the fucking ball and give it to Duncan. This isn’t a beautiful game scenario that a lot of posters here on stuck on bc of 12-14. This is the 99-02 Spurs. We have a franchise. We have role players. We have a Derek Anderson but the ball goes through one person in spots for that one person to dominate. We don’t go 5 possessions with ignoring him in the paint in a row. Or we don’t go 5 possessions of giving him the ball at the 3 point line and say well we tried giving it to Wemby what do you want from us. Like give him the ball in his spots. Set up for him to score. Exploit the very obvious (and only) mismatch we have on the entire team.

[Tyronn Lue]

The problem of Kawhi leaving doesn't factor into Wemby's situation. Kawhi had a Finals MVP and 2 DPOY awards, and still wanted out. Wemby could win 2b2 rings and still decide the beaches of California are calling.

[Pauleta14]

If Wemby decides to leave it won't to get more lights/bigger market but bc of the roster

[exstatic]

Don't compare Murray to Sohan... Murray was an actual PG with ball handle skills... In high school he had some crossover highlights that made ppl compare him to Jamal Crawford... Ppl overreacted to him being embarrassed his first time in the playoffs vs an elite defender...

Murray was SO BAD at handling the ball as a rookie, the couldn’t even play him at the 2 spot. He played SF.

[exstatic]

The problem of Kawhi leaving doesn't factor into Wemby's situation. Kawhi had a Finals MVP and 2 DPOY awards, and still wanted out. Wemby could win 2b2 rings and still decide the beaches of California are calling.

Euros aren’t enamored of LA like American kids are. It’s just not in their DNA.

[Ice009]

What an ugly game. Spurs bounce back well after the huge loss @ Clippers, we'll see if they are able to do the same this time.

Spurs have still a long way to go before being a contender:

- Wembanyama: He is a awesome you players. He still has a lot to learn, which is logical at 19, but he should be top5 players quite qucikly.

- Vassell: If he stays healthy, he would be a great third option. He doesn't have the ballhandling/creativity to be more.

- Keldon Johnson: He has a narrow window of utility for a team. He can't carry too much offensive load like last season showed, but he also isn't a good role player because he isn't a great shooter and defender. He is currently fine with the team but it might not last. Trading him will likely be the right move in the future.

- Zach Collins: he is a 20mpg rotation big and nothing more. He is a quite good offensive player but he too limited physically to be a defensive/rebounding force which is a big issue for a center.

- Tre Jones: a 15 mpg average backup PG.

- Sochan: Hard to say with the PG bullshit, to be determined...

- Rest of the roster: I don't see a diamond in the rough among them for the moment.

I guess I can't argue with most of those takes. What did you mean when you said Wemby is an awesome you player?

Do you guys think Vassell can be a second option? Not just a third option? If so, Spurs roster is looking bad. I thought he has the potential to be a number 2 on a good team, but I might be wrong on that.
I agree on Keldon, Zach and Tre, unfortunately :(. No idea about Sochan. He was absolutely terrible last night.

I read some of the posts below about usage, but I still Victor is not getting the ball in the right/better spots. I don't know if him taking some of those threes are because he is frustrated not getting the ball when he calls for it down low or what, but IMO, they're not putting him is good spots for him to succeed. These guys need to learn that they're not as good as him now, and when they were rookies, they weren't in the same universe as him. Should have gotten some veterans that know how to play. I'd like to see Devonte get some court time now too. No idea why he's on the bench all season and preseason. I know he's not the greatest PG, more a scoring guard I assume, but he's been in the league longer.

Also, not sure if they should consider giving Blake some court time due to the team defense being so bad. He might not be great on offense, but at least he gives a great effort on defense when he playrs.

[cd98]

You know I keep hearing to wait several years but it doesn’t make sense. Parker could dribble the ball and was an elite finisher at the rim from day one. He couldn’t really shoot that well but he beat his man off the dribble and torched GP his rookie year. It was the stuff of legends. And by 03 he really came into his own. Yeah he shit the bed in 3 finals games but he had a very good postseason run that year and he had elite speed with the ball in his hands from day 1.

Kawhi was on a team with 3 HOFs so we could afford to be patient. And something we never did was put Kawhi as PG. Why? Bc it’s stupid to do. He wasn’t a point guard. We gave him small incremental goals that were actually tangible for him to reach. That’s quite the opposite of Sochan. We are doing too many things at once with him. I might not have created a PG before but I know that chasing too many goals at once is bad for development. Ok Sochan work on defense of guards. Now work on dribbling. Now work on pick n roll. Work on shooting. Work on creating for others. Work on inbounding to Vic. Work on drive and kicks. Work on pocket passes in the free throw area and deep in the lane. Work on clock management. Work on feeling when to get guys the ball. Work on running the whole team. Work on setting up everything. And work on instincts for the position. It’s too much shit man. Idk why I’m the only one who believes that btw.

sidenote- it took DJ 5 years to be a decent PG (not elite) and if it takes Sochan 5 years to be that then we are screwed as a franchise either way. Also DJ isn’t a PG anymore where he currently is. Tre is the PG. So it took 5 years to learn only for him to now be a SG.

And sidenote 2- Wemby leading the team in shots by one shot isn’t a good thing. If we had Duncan and Elliott was averaging 1 shot less than him I would think our offense is pretty stupid. And if Mario Ellie only averaged 3 shots less than Duncan (yes even rookie Duncan) then I would be like stop shooting the fucking ball and give it to Duncan. This isn’t a beautiful game scenario that a lot of posters here on stuck on bc of 12-14. This is the 99-02 Spurs. We have a franchise. We have role players. We have a Derek Anderson but the ball goes through one person in spots for that one person to dominate. We don’t go 5 possessions with ignoring him in the paint in a row. Or we don’t go 5 possessions of giving him the ball at the 3 point line and say well we tried giving it to Wemby what do you want from us. Like give him the ball in his spots. Set up for him to score. Exploit the very obvious (and only) mismatch we have on the entire team.

Parker had great national speed, and yes, he did play well against a 34 year old Gary Payton, who was on the backend of his defensive career. Then he played the Lakers, who dared him to take jumpers and he shot poorly and pretty much sucked. But it was good that he sucked because it motivated him to get a jump shot. It still took several years for him to get his jumper to be reliable, but by 2006, about 4 years after he came into the league, he was awesome. Kawhi was a good, raw player, but ultimately was only useful on defense for the most part for the first 2 years of his career. But he was told when he came in the league that he wasn't a shooter and boy did he put in the work and change that narrative. And it wasn't just that DJM couldn't dribble well against starting point guards, he couldn't finish at the rim either. People were saying he was a bust back then, but he worked his butt off and got better and became an all-star and is a good player.

Look, Sochan could be a bust. It's entirely possible. But you can't tell how good he is going to be when he basically only played half of last season (as part of the tank) and 7 games this season. He flashed good stuff last year. Who knows how he will do as a PG. Maybe he never gets there. Maybe he is a 3 or a 4, but the Spurs see something in him and they have one of the best player development groups in the league that has consistently shown that they can take players and develop them into good and sometimes great players: Kawhi, Hill, DJM, Vassell, Tre Jones, Keldon Johnson, Derrick White, and Kyle Anderson. So I suggest everyone cool off on dumping everyone on the roster not named Wemby, and let things play out.

[Bruno]

What did you mean when you said Wemby is an awesome you player?

typo, it was young.



Do you guys think Vassell can be a second option? Not just a third option? If so, Spurs roster is looking bad. I thought he has the potential to be a number 2 on a good team, but I might be wrong on that.

My reservation about Vassell is that he lacks playmaking skills and is more of a finisher. He needs to have someone, or a system, that will put the defense off balance first. Spurs badly need a pick and roll player who can put a defense on their heel. That initiator needs to be Spurs second option. Vassell doesn't have the dribbling and first step to be that player.

Saying that, the whole second/third option depends on you definition of it. If it's on scoring alone, then I agree that Vassell can be a second option. If it's on overall offensive impact, then I don't think he is a complete enough player to be a good second option.

[Spursfanfromafar]

What an ugly game. Spurs bounce back well after the huge loss @ Clippers, we'll see if they are able to do the same this time.

Spurs have still a long way to go before being a contender:

- Wembanyama: He is a awesome you players. He still has a lot to learn, which is logical at 19, but he should be top5 players quite qucikly.

- Vassell: If he stays healthy, he would be a great third option. He doesn't have the ballhandling/creativity to be more.

- Keldon Johnson: He has a narrow window of utility for a team. He can't carry too much offensive load like last season showed, but he also isn't a good role player because he isn't a great shooter and defender. He is currently fine with the team but it might not last. Trading him will likely be the right move in the future.

- Zach Collins: he is a 20mpg rotation big and nothing more. He is a quite good offensive player but he too limited physically to be a defensive/rebounding force which is a big issue for a center.

- Tre Jones: a 15 mpg average backup PG.

- Sochan: Hard to say with the PG bullshit, to be determined...

- Rest of the roster: I don't see a diamond in the rough among them for the moment.

Agree mostly with you. Although I am a bit higher on Keldon Johnson..Relative to contract, he is useful for the rebuilding Spurs. And he shows a lot of heart which matters in today's NBA.

The Spurs should have traded for a decent PG or got one in free agency and I don't understand PATFO's stubbornness on this count. They could have gotten Tre's brother last year itself and either him/Monte Morris this year too. This team just lacks spacing in its starting unit and this is resulting in clunky possessions that is not helping our transition defense and puts too much pressure/onus on Wemby.

I understand the idea of developing organically but saddling such a sudden load as starting PG on Sochan doesn't seem optimal to me. I don't think waiting for the 2024 draft to get a good PG is ideal either. The Spurs should be proactive in using its assets and space to get a decent PG and it is not impossible over the course of the season.

[ambchang]

Structure an offense around him and he won't... We can wag our fingers all he wants, but when he leaves, that's on the Pop enablers

Do you have some sort of insider information the rest of us don’t? Sochan and wemby had beef, players don’t like wemby, wemby will leave because I’m not even sure what.

If wemby jacks up frustration threes, it’s all on him. That’s the definition of frustration threes.

[Seventyniner]

And sidenote 2- Wemby leading the team in shots by one shot isn’t a good thing. If we had Duncan and Elliott was averaging 1 shot less than him I would think our offense is pretty stupid. And if Mario Ellie only averaged 3 shots less than Duncan (yes even rookie Duncan) then I would be like stop shooting the fucking ball and give it to Duncan.

I don't think it's good to get caught up in just shots per game. Wemby's usage rate so far is 30.5% which is higher than any season Duncan ever posted (career high was 29.7% in 2003-2004).

Wemby's big problem right now is that he is committing a ton of turnovers.

[MannyIsGod]

Looking at his season totals, he is:

36-67 from two
12-37 from three
37 FTA (including 5 and ones, for ~16 possessions used)
25 turnovers


That's a total of 67 + 37 + 16 + 25 = 145 possessions used, out of about 475 (145 / 0.305) that the Spurs have had total while he's on the floor. That might not be exact but it shouldn't be far off.

Let's say 13 of those 3PA (around 1/3) were out of frustration, and if he hadn't taken those he would have used up 28% of those possessions himself instead of 100%. Now his total possessions used would be 145 - 13 + 0.28 * 13, or around 136.

Out of 475 total possessions that's a usage rate of 28.6%, for a difference of 1.9%. Not an insignificant difference, but still well above players like Jokic, Tatum, and Giannis in their rookie seasons.

I have watched most of the total minutes the Spurs have played this year, mainly missing the first half against Dallas and the second halves against the Clippers and Pacers. In case you're trying to imply that I haven't watched the games. But I didn't watch much of the rookie seasons of the other players you mentioned so usage rate seemed like the best way to compare them to Wemby.

Two things. One, its probably more than 13 frustration possessions because some of those turnovers are also in a similar situation. But more importantly, we have one game out of all of them that has an exceptionally high usage rate (the 2nd Phoenix game) where he has 7 more FG than any other night. That's skewing the data a lot too. So out of 7 games, you have one with very very high usage. Another 2 with rates that aren't bad, and then 4 with 12 or fewer FGA. Its especially been frustrating because the high usage game should be way more of the norm. Wemby should be leading the team in FGA every game this season. Part of this is also that so many of his FG come in terrible positions.

I'll grant you that his frustration shots aren't impacting as much as I thought, but I still think that ~30% usage isn't telling a very complete story. Its also true its less than a lot of rookies but we haven't seen a rookie like this since Lebron.

[MannyIsGod]

I think people are regurgitating a bunch of typical rookie nonsense with Wemby. Yes, its only a few games into year one and yes he's going to get much better at things go along. But he's already one of the best players in this league! I don't think its a stretch to say this man is already a top 10 player in the world and we should be utilizing him as such and putting him in positions to succeed and learn from that. If anything, hes too willing a passer at times in the offense right now. There's one person on this team currently who has a chance at being a #2 level player and that is Vassel. Keldon will never be that and if we're relying on Keldon in that role we're hurting him and the team. The sooner Keldon is used to working as a role player - where he can be a damn good one - the better. He's had a chance over the past two years to show he's capable of being the man and while I thought he had a chance of being an all star he's clearly leveled off and is going to be a high end role player. Zach Collins is not someone you're going to run an offense through. Sochan is not going to be someone you run an offense through.

We know the exact direction this team is going to go because we've literally won the lotto on the best talent the NBA has had come in for the last two decades and we shoudln't be acting like this is the same team as last year and running it in the same way. That doesn't mean that we should be trying to win at all costs or even expect to win, but we shouldn't be acting like Wemby is anything but a Duncan level talent and move forward as such. Build around the man NOW and because there's absolutely no reason to drag our feet on this.

[The Truth #6]

I remember the Bob Weiss years. Rebuilding sucks. People should be happy we have Victor. It still feels like there's no patience or acceptance of the reality we are in, especially considering people are happy to admit that we lack talent around Victor. Ok. So how to get talent?

On one extreme we only develop our young players and draft picks and that takes time. If Victor is okay with a slow approach then that will actually keep him here longer.

On the other extreme, we go all in early and make a bunch of trades, however, there's no guarantee for that to work, and still takes time, and if anything there's more examples of teams going all in too soon and that actually forcing their star player out earlier than needed due to accelerated expectations.

As for the anxiety of Victor leaving, that is a potential reality for any star player and people just have to accept it.

[exstatic]

I remember the Bob Weiss years. Rebuilding sucks. People should be happy we have Victor. It still feels like there's no patience or acceptance of the reality we are in, especially considering people are happy to admit that we lack talent around Victor. Ok. So how to get talent?

On one extreme we only develop our young players and draft picks and that takes time. If Victor is okay with a slow approach then that will actually keep him here longer.

On the other extreme, we go all in early and make a bunch of trades, however, there's no guarantee for that to work, and still takes time, and if anything there's more examples of teams going all in too soon and that actually forcing their star player out earlier than needed due to accelerated expectations.

As for the anxiety of Victor leaving, that is a potential reality for any star player and people just have to accept it.

Houston spent $214M on two mid FAs and they still suck. They'll probably be bad enough to lose their lightly (1-4) protected FRP, and still have it be a good pick.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

You misunderstood. I’m not talking about these guys according to their rookie year. I mean Wemby is a top 10 player NOW. None of those guys were rookie year. Wemby is that special. He’s not Duncan rookie year but I expect him to be damn close.

It’s not the usage I have the problem with. It’s where we get him the ball. If you’re 7’4 guy is in the post calling for the ball and you can’t inbound pass to him so he has to go to the 3 point line to get that ball, that is usage, but not proper usage. Also to those people saying well we expect him to shoot 50 times a game. How about not be outshot by Zack Collins and KJ. We can start with that. I had called Wemby would get outshot in games by Vassell and KJ but I never thought Zach Collins would be averaging only 3 shots less. That’s insane.

Also Sochan isn’t a PG. you could give him 5 years and it wouldn’t change that fact. It’s ok. Im not shitting on Sochan. It just seems like I am bc I said he is a high energy bench guy and not a PG. A good bench is vital for a winning team and Sochan can one day work his way to our starting PF once he gets a jump shot
why is top 10 player running around the court in shorts full of shit for the second game in a row?

[RC_Drunkford]

why is top 10 player running around the court in shorts full of shit for the second game in a row?

why are you lookin at men's butts when you watch basketball?

[Vince Carter's ankle]

why are you lookin at men's butts when you watch basketball?
do you have any problems with that?

[RC_Drunkford]

do you have any problems with that?

has to be expected from a faggot

[Vince Carter's ankle]

has to be expected from a faggot
how dare you talk to your father like that, young lady?
are you jealous that I don’t have vision problems?

[rascal]

how dare you talk to your father like that, young lady?
are you jealous that I don’t have vision problems?

What is wrong with you. All you do is take jabs at people in here. Others have said the same as I'm saying.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

What is wrong with you. All you do is take jabs at people in here. Others have said the same as I'm saying.
https://media.tenor.com/LslUNhtr0bAAAAAC/tobey-maguire-gonna-cry.gif

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUqX2UZId8