Article: Spurs' Jeremy Sochan opens up on his struggles to shift to point guard

[NASpurs]

https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/spurs-jeremy-sochan-opens-struggles-shift-point-18485472.php

"There have been moments where it's like, 'Yo I don't want to,' " Sochan said Saturday. "It's like (expletive) this (expletive)."

[koriwhat]

Ouch though I agree with Sochan 110%.

[Maddog]

I think this will serve him well for the future.

I really doubt the Spurs see this as a long term option

[Chinook]

It's what it is. I think it would've been far easier to have him play this role off the bench, but Sochan like Keldon is a non-negotiable starter, so if he was going to be PG, it was going to be to start even though it would probably be better for everyone (including Jeremy) if Tre started things off.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I like his honesty about his confidence being a roller coaster. It’s hella obvious when looking at him on the court too. Last season he played with so much energy and seem to be enjoying himself a lot more. I don’t think he will ever be a true point guard, but this could definitely help him improve some parts of his game.

All that said, I still wish Victor got more minutes with Jones because he seems to do a better job of running the offense and getting him involved more.

[exstatic]

I like his honesty about his confidence being a roller coaster. It’s hella obvious when looking at him on the court too. Last season he played with so much energy and seem to be enjoying himself a lot more. I don’t think he will ever be a true point guard, but this could definitely help him improve some parts of his game.

All that said, I still wish Victor got more minutes with Jones because he seems to do a better job of running the offense and getting him involved more.

Sochan/Jones was one of the worst 2 man combos last year.

I just love all of the posters crying for Jones to start,most of who declared him not to be anNBA starting level PG a few months ago.

[Davidicus]

I like the idea of testing Sochan at PG in and of itself. But I worry at what cost.

1. Sochan could be developing as a SF/backup PF (and have Keldon go nuts leading the bench). Not to mention whatever momentum he had from last year he’s starting over at square one.
2. If this is the year to “not put Victor in a box” and see what he can do, why pair a 19yo with a 20yo PF learning to play PG for the first time in his life?

I have faith it will pay off in the long run, but the worries persist.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Sochan/Jones was one of the worst 2 man combos last year.

I just love all of the posters crying for Jones to start,most of who declared him not to be anNBA starting level PG a few months ago.


I don’t think Jones is a starter level point guard, but he does a pretty solid job of getting the offense together and he is better at finding Victor so far in this small sample size we’ve witnessed. If we had better point guard options on the team I would be for that.

I think Jeremy will definitely become a more well rounded player after going through all this, but ultimately I think point guard will not be his full time role in the future

[z0sa]

Love Jeremy's honesty. He's got a good head on his shoulders. He understands that starting at PG is what's best for both him (his career, MPG etc) and the team. Pop's working with him and he's working with us.

That said, we all understand the frustration. Especially considering Wemby needed 30 shots last night but didn't get them. A great PG has his finger on the tempo of the game and knows how to feed the hot hand(s). Sochan's smart but being PG is a hella more complicated than PF...

[SPURt]

I respect him trying, Pop is asking him to do something that he himself cannot see. That’s some serious faith right there.

[itzsoweezee]

All just so keldon can keep starting. So stupid

[z0sa]

All just so keldon can keep starting.

This is a big part of why I think KJ is the odd man out moving forward. They want to keep his stock as high as possible and with his personality traits, it's probably the wrong move sending him to the bench for his confidence. Sochan's probably the stronger player mentally, apparently

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

The upside to Sochan becoming a playable PG is so huge that it's worth the attempt even if the odds are against it tbh

[TimmyBuckets]

The upside to Sochan becoming a playable PG is so huge that it's worth the attempt even if the odds are against it tbh

Ya what’s the alternative? He was a high draft pick and it’s beneficial for him to start plus pg is the only position he can play in the lineup. Not sure if his upside is huge.

[poopbox]

It's what it is. I think it would've been far easier to have him play this role off the bench, but Sochan like Keldon is a non-negotiable starter, so if he was going to be PG, it was going to be to start even though it would probably be better for everyone (including Jeremy) if Tre started things off.

Why is Sochan a "non-negotiable starter"?

[exstatic]

Something I haven’t seen posted are Josh Giddey’s very real struggles this year. He’s taken pretty big steps back in multiple areas, so even for guys drafted as points, the struggle is real.

[Dex]

It's what it is. I think it would've been far easier to have him play this role off the bench, but Sochan like Keldon is a non-negotiable starter, so if he was going to be PG, it was going to be to start even though it would probably be better for everyone (including Jeremy) if Tre started things off.

I've been spouting this for months, and to this point I disagree.

Keldon should not be a non-negotiable starter. Even Pop said it....if he could make Manu come off the bench, he can make anybody do it (and sure as hell KJ with the way he is playing).

The team runs better with Jones on the floor, and he could help facilitate easy looks for Wemby and crew. Let Johnson be a ball of energy and play with more freedom off the bench, instead of just floating out there while (rightfully) giving up touches to guys like Victor, Vassell, and Collins.

Sochan can still handle some play-making duties but he doesn't need to be the guy bringing the ball up the court the majority of the time.

I know the point of this "experiment" is to give him reps and experience, but it feels like we are teetering on the edge of him losing confidence in himself and the team based on these comments. The last thing we need to do is piss off one of our young players of the future.

The way this is going, I feel like this is another stealth tank move by Pop...finding ways to give up games while pretending like it's for the greater good.

[slick'81]

Poor sochan doesn't like pops experimenting

[exstatic]

I've been spouting this for months, and to this point I disagree.

Keldon should not be a non-negotiable starter. Even Pop said it....if he could make Manu come off the bench, he can make anybody do it (and sure as hell KJ with the way he is playing).

The team runs better with Jones on the floor, and he could help facilitate easy looks for Wemby and crew. Let Johnson be a ball of energy and play with more freedom off the bench, instead of just floating out there while (rightfully) giving up touches to guys like Victor, Vassell, and Collins.

Sochan can still handle some play-making duties but he doesn't need to be the guy bringing the ball up the court the majority of the time.

I know the point of this "experiment" is to give him reps and experience, but it feels like we are teetering on the edge of him losing confidence in himself and the team based on these comments. The last thing we need to do is piss off one of our young players of the future.

The way this is going, I feel like this is another stealth tank move by Pop...finding ways to give up games while pretending like it's for the greater good.

We’re not tanking, not even stealth. Pop had easy chances to dump both Phoenix games, like he did so many last year, and declined. We’re also not trying to win. It’s not about the team running better. Think of this as the Spurs “gap year”, where they run off to Europe, smoke dope, and ride around on a Eurail pass. If Tre is on the floor, then he’s handling the ball and not Jeremy, and that’s not what Pop wants. I think you’re also letting your dislike of Pop color your interpretation of Jeremy’s comments. You can be frustrated with your own performance, and also not ready to quit. That’s how you learn, and grow your game.

[SpursFan86]

Sochan/Jones was one of the worst 2 man combos last year.

I just love all of the posters crying for Jones to start,most of who declared him not to be anNBA starting level PG a few months ago.

I mean, to be fair the Jones/Wemby duo has pretty clearly been successful so far this year. I think that’s a fair reason for people to change their tune and be more in favor of inserting Tre into the starting lineup.

Anyways, I still think it’s too early to make any changes. I don’t see Sochan being a PG long-term but I think SA knows this too. It’s about developing him and as long as his confidence doesn’t get completely shot then short term struggles aren’t really a main concern. Obviously if it becomes at the expense of Victor’s development that’s a different story but too early to really judge that.

[spursparker9]

https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/spurs-jeremy-sochan-opens-struggles-shift-point-18485472.php

"There have been moments where it's like, 'Yo I don't want to,' " Sochan said Saturday. "It's like (expletive) this (expletive)."

:lol

Soon it will be "Yo, I don't want to be in San Antonio. "

[KobesAchilles]

:lol

Soon it will be "Yo, I don't want to be in San Antonio. "
I mean we can always find another back up PF

[itzsoweezee]

Jones is not a starting level point guard, but Sochan isn’t even a third string level point guard. There are many ways to involve Sochan as a facilitator without making him a point guard. I’ve yet to see any reasonable explanation for this lineup situation. Even popovich recognizes that it doesn’t work, hence his going away from it down the stretch against Minnesota

[BacktoBasics]

Can someone post the article please

[spurraider21]

Sochan/Jones was one of the worst 2 man combos last year.

I just love all of the posters crying for Jones to start,most of who declared him not to be anNBA starting level PG a few months ago.
The roster lacks an nba starting caliber point guard. Tre is closer to one than sochan. It’s really not complicated

[poopbox]

I mean, to be fair the Jones/Wemby duo has pretty clearly been successful so far this year. I think that’s a fair reason for people to change their tune and be more in favor of inserting Tre into the starting lineup.

Anyways, I still think it’s too early to make any changes. I don’t see Sochan being a PG long-term but I think SA knows this too. It’s about developing him and as long as his confidence doesn’t get completely shot then short term struggles aren’t really a main concern. Obviously if it becomes at the expense of Victor’s development that’s a different story but too early to really judge that.

How is playing him at point guard "developing him"?

Like Timmy never played at point guard. He developed just fine.
Kawhi never played at point guard. He developed just fine.
Danny never played at point guard. He developed just fine.

I don't understand what Sochan is supposed to be developing at point guard and I don't understand why he has to play at the point guard spot to develop it.

[poopbox]

:lol

Soon it will be "Yo, I don't want to be in San Antonio. "

This is how I think it ends. Especially after SA low balls his contract cause he played bad at a position they forced him to play at :rollin

[DAF86]

The starting lineup builds itself up: Jones, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan, Wemby.

I can somehow understand the idea of not wanting to wear down Wemby by making him play center on defense, but you can just have Sochan play there if Zach Collins is the other answer. It's not like our defense could get any worse.

[exstatic]

The roster lacks an nba starting caliber point guard. Tre is closer to one than sochan. It’s really not complicated

Playing an obvious short term stopgap isn’t preferable to a long term gamble in what people here STILL don’t understand is a throwaway season.

[spurraider21]

Playing an obvious short term stopgap isn’t preferable to a long term gamble in what people here STILL don’t understand is a throwaway season.
What you don’t understand is that this season should be about wemby and not about sochan

give Jeremy his 10-15 minutes of point guard experimentation with the second unit instead of sabotaging the starters

[exstatic]

What you don’t understand is that this season should be about wemby and not about sochan

give Jeremy his 10-15 minutes of point guard experimentation with the second unit instead of sabotaging the starters

It can actually be about both. Wemby needs less development and more acclimation to what does and doesn’t work in the NBA.

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise.

[Kawhi Duncan]

The upside to Sochan becoming a playable PG is so huge that it's worth the attempt even if the odds are against it tbh
Some players are meant to be what they're meant to be, and no amount of forcing otherwise will change that... It may actually ruin their development... That's like trying to force Shaun Marion into playing PG... The stuff that actually made Marion an all star would have been underdeveloped, and he would have never been at the level he was... Nothing about Sohan's game has improved, and almost everything got worse, including his defense..
His assists are up by default, but no one who watches the games actually thinks he passes better than last year... He may actually be passing worse now that he is forced to... This all reeks of Pop ego trip and trying to be the smartest guy in the room by bucking conventional wisdom... And despite what everyone with eyes is saying zhe will double down on the stupid because he doesn't wanna admit he is wrong... Just like when he subbed Duncan in the finals

[TekXX]

Season feels very gimmicky, basically a throw away. So we tank and get a ok pick next draft then what? At some point we need to start making moves because how many tank seasons we gonna do?

[Kawhi Duncan]

Playing an obvious short term stopgap isn’t preferable to a long term gamble in what people here STILL don’t understand is a throwaway season.

So we should gamble MAYBE somehow making Sohan a serviceable PG at the expense of a potential superstar in Wemby's development and happiness? Insanity... Let's be clear... Wemby DEFINITELY gets frustrated with the lack of direction on offense and teammates not being able to set him up... Don't let his demeanor fool u

[Chinook]

Why is Sochan a "non-negotiable starter"?


I've been spouting this for months, and to this point I disagree.

Keldon should not be a non-negotiable starter. Even Pop said it....if he could make Manu come off the bench, he can make anybody do it (and sure as hell KJ with the way he is playing).

I'm using that term because I think Pop has it in his head who he wants to start, rather than me saying who I want to start. I think Pop wants Keldon, Jeremy, Victor and Zach to be in the first unit. Then he has to choose between bench Vassell or running without a PG. Playing Sochan there is through that logic an attempt to bring in the guy who should obviously be the starter without having compromise on the four other players.

I actually think Sochan should come off the bench. Keldon's actually played really well this year. People bitch about his driving, but he's actually pretty good at it. Johnson drives more than anyone on the team besides Sochan, but 63 percent of his drives end up as points or assists, as opposed to 44 percent of Jeremy and 53 percent for Tre. Keldon does turn it over 8 percent of time, rather than 5 for Tre and 4 for Jeremy. I combined assists and scoring because you'd be fine with players doing either as the result of driving, but Keldon's drives don't generate assists at the same rate that the other two do. This feeds into the idea that Johnson doesn't pass, but the rest of the stats don't support that. Keldon is basically tied with Sochan and Collins for best passer on the team who isn't Tre Jones. He doesn't have quite the raw assist numbers (though he has had some games where he's almost gotten a triple-double), but when you factor in secondary assists (and passes that led to free throws) you have Sochan at 5.3, Keldon at 5.1 and Collins at 5.0. Ultimately Keldon like Collins is halfway between being a facilitator and a finisher. Both of them are willing to move to the ball but have ways to score if the opposing defense ignores them. In other words, they actually fit pretty well on offense with Wemby and Vassell for the time being. Defense, especially for Keldon, isn't great, but the Spurs don't have good defenders right now.

[spurs10]

It can actually be about both. Wemby needs less development and more acclimation to what does and doesn’t work in the NBA.

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise. Yeah you gave me a great response when I was saying Pop didn't appear to be trying to win. I had heard something before the season started saying we were going to try to 'win now,' but I think it was someone saying we weren't ''tanking.' What we are seeing is an 'experiment,' as you say, and that's what it looks like. Playing Sochan at PG is going to develop his ball handling and court vision, perhaps that's the plan.

[Chomag]

I don't understand why they won't run him off the bench, with his high energy is perfect for that roll.

[scott]

This is all just a CIA Pop move to make people appreciate Tre Jones. Pop reads SpursTalk, and will have no more Tre Jones slander

[poopbox]

I'm using that term because I think Pop has it in his head who he wants to start, rather than me saying who I want to start. I think Pop wants Keldon, Jeremy, Victor and Zach to be in the first unit. Then he has to choose between bench Vassell or running without a PG. Playing Sochan there is through that logic an attempt to bring in the guy who should obviously be the starter without having compromise on the four other players.

I actually think Sochan should come off the bench. Keldon's actually played really well this year. People bitch about his driving, but he's actually pretty good at it. Johnson drives more than anyone on the team besides Sochan, but 63 percent of his drives end up as points or assists, as opposed to 44 percent of Jeremy and 53 percent for Tre. Keldon does turn it over 8 percent of time, rather than 5 for Tre and 4 for Jeremy. I combined assists and scoring because you'd be fine with players doing either as the result of driving, but Keldon's drives don't generate assists at the same rate that the other two do. This feeds into the idea that Johnson doesn't pass, but the rest of the stats don't support that. Keldon is basically tied with Sochan and Collins for best passer on the team who isn't Tre Jones. He doesn't have quite the raw assist numbers (though he has had some games where he's almost gotten a triple-double), but when you factor in secondary assists (and passes that led to free throws) you have Sochan at 5.3, Keldon at 5.1 and Collins at 5.0. Ultimately Keldon like Collins is halfway between being a facilitator and a finisher. Both of them are willing to move to the ball but have ways to score if the opposing defense ignores them. In other words, they actually fit pretty well on offense with Wemby and Vassell for the time being. Defense, especially for Keldon, isn't great, but the Spurs don't have good defenders right now.

While I agree with 90% of what you said, the problem is that it doesn't make any logical sense for the short term, it doesn't make any logical sense for the long term, it doesn't make us better in the short term, it doesn't make us better in the long term, and over the next two seasons when we either draft, sign, or trade for a starting point guard, it would have all been for nothing. We actually don't really need a "point guard" as we move more into the future where Victor also acts as a secondary and sometimes primary offensive initiator and facilitator, we just need it to not be someone who is as bad at it as Jeremy.

[poopbox]

The starting lineup builds itself up: Jones, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan, Wemby.

I can somehow understand the idea of not wanting to wear down Wemby by making him play center on defense, but you can just have Sochan play there if Zach Collins is the other answer. It's not like our defense could get any worse.

Who says Wemby has to play center on defense? Let Sochan do it. He is more likely to be successful doing that since their aren't very many good big men in the league right now than he is trying to defend guards where damn near every team in the league has one who can drop at least 20 on you a night.

[DAF86]

It can actually be about both. Wemby needs less development and more acclimation to what does and doesn’t work in the NBA.

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise.

You can sabotage a player's career by messing with his confidence, though. Last year everybody love Sochan, this year everybody is hating on him and it's entirely on Pop.

[JeffDuncan]

… I think Pop wants Keldon, Jeremy, Victor and Zach to be in the first unit. Then he has to choose between bench Vassell or running without a PG. …


I don’t think benching Vassell was ever a possibility. No way does he get that kind of contract if benching him was seriously considered.

It was Zach at center, Victor at pf, Keldon at sf, Vassell at sg, and, hm. Do you play Tre for offense, or Sochan for defense? They went with defense.

Sochan couldn’t replace Victor, he couldn’t play center, he couldn’t play sg, and he couldn’t replace Keldon’s scoring. It had to be Tre.

As far as developing Sochan as a point guard, the Spurs are telling a little fib. Look at the Spurs’ history. It’s well known how the Spurs develop young players, to try to teach them new skills.

G League
then
Garbage time (with trips back to GL
then
Bench (still maybe trips back to GL
then
Starter.

That’s how they do it. Are they doing that with Sochan, to turn him into a point guard? Nope.

But the Spurs are not under oath, so they can say whatever they want. They won’t be arrested.

They wanted Sochan on the court to defend taller players. I’m sure in practice they’re trying to teach him some point guard stuff, but they can’t honestly say they’re developing him as a pg, in the way we know the Spurs do.

[exstatic]

You can sabotage a player's career by messing with his confidence, though. Last year everybody love Sochan, this year everybody is hating on him and it's entirely on Pop.

Oh noes! Some idiot fans on a message board be hatin on Jeremy!

[TD 21]

If they start Sochan at PF and Wembanyama at C, two issues are created: 1) The dreaded Sochan-Jones pairing and 2) If Sochan guards the C, not only does he not have a chance on most post ups, block outs and lobs, but then he obviously can't defend the best opposing 1-4.

As underwhelming as he's been at that, he's still better suited than anyone else (at least 2-4) and needs to do it well to have value.


Who says Wemby has to play center on defense? Let Sochan do it. He is more likely to be successful doing that since their aren't very many good big men in the league right now than he is trying to defend guards where damn near every team in the league has one who can drop at least 20 on you a night.

This isn't a decade ago; the league is as flush with great big men as it's ever been.

[DAF86]

Oh noes! Some idiot fans on a message board be hatin on Jeremy!

It's not just that. It's obviously bothering Sochan too, there's a reason he spoke about it.

[Chinook]

It can actually be about both. Wemby needs less development and more acclimation to what does and doesn’t work in the NBA.

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise.

It can be about both. I do agree there. This is a season about developing the team as a unit. Yes, that means Wemby developing as a star, but it also means guys showing what they can do as lesser options. It means Wemby getting used to having the best teammates he's ever had and going up against the best defenders he's ever faced. So in a way, yeah, Sochan playing PG and seeing if he can handle it makes some sense in the context of this year.

But you're going to too far calling it a "throwaway" season. Everything we've heard is that the Spurs fully intend to win every game they're playing right now. They probably don't believe they're going to win a title this season. But they want to win as many games as they can, whether that be 20-something like last time or in the 40s and in position for the post-season. Part of the evaluation element to this season is seeing how good they can be with this core. They need to see if Wemby is a superstar already or if he's going to need some Robin years. The process of seeing how guys like Johnson, Branham and to a lesser extent Vassell handle their demotion. They're evaluating whether Collins or a center like Bassey fit best next to Wemby just as they are experimenting with Wemby at center. It's so much harder to answer a lot of these questions when the offense is non-functional. Guys like Keldon and Vassell can't "play off Wemby" when bad PG play puts the ball in their hands with pressure to create. Chemistry with Wemby is harder to establish when the offense isn't getting people easy shots that aren't threes.

So yeah, the Spurs may already know they need a new PG because "Jones isn't the answer". But what they don't know if is they can afford to draft one with a mid- to late-lottery pick this year or if they need to make a move for a vet at the position. The plan next year can't be "Let's see what we have now that we're taking the PG position a bit more seriously." It's important to take steps in the right direction. Most teams have to win "a little" before they win "a lot". You don't just flip a switch and start winning a bunch of games, especially without aggressive free-agent additions. Sustained success is a product of improving year after year, so going into any season acting like the team should be okay playing poorly is just really off-base.

[spurraider21]

It can actually be about both. Wemby needs less development and more acclimation to what does and doesn’t work in the NBA.

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise.
I didn’t say sabotaging the season i said sabotaging the starters. You are stunting the development and chemistry of Victor, Vassell, Collins, keldon if you throw the monkey wrench that is Sochan into the mix. We aren’t seeing what this unit actually should look or play like because they have long stretches of complete incompetence from the table setter in the lineup.

it’s like evaluating an nfl offense when your qb is Tim tebow

[Chinook]

While I agree with 90% of what you said, the problem is that it doesn't make any logical sense for the short term, it doesn't make any logical sense for the long term, it doesn't make us better in the short term, it doesn't make us better in the long term, and over the next two seasons when we either draft, sign, or trade for a starting point guard, it would have all been for nothing.

I firmly believe Jones, Vassell, Johnson, Wembanyama, Collins is the best starting unit the Spurs can field given Bassey's limitations. I believe that lineup is easily an improvement over what they're running now. I also think Sochan, Branham, McDermott, Osman, Bassey is a serviceable bench unit. So I actually think it's better for the team in the short term. Long-term, teams ALWAYS need good guard play.


We actually don't really need a "point guard" as we move more into the future where Victor also acts as a secondary and sometimes primary offensive initiator and facilitator, we just need it to not be someone who is as bad at it as Jeremy.

This is an argument FOR Jones playing over Sochan. We don't know what kind of star Wemby is going to be, but we know that right now, he benefits more from being set up than creating his own offense. Solid guard play is going to be important to him for a least the next couple of years but could realistically be important for his whole career. Most stars rely on guard play, even if they do a lot of primary play-making. By playing with a competent guard, Wemby will give the Spurs data on what kind guard they need. Because Sochan isn't anymore inked into the future Spurs than Jones is. Tre is on a two-year deal, but he can be re-signed. Some of the guys the Spurs drafted will be traded. We have no idea if the starting lineup for the 2028 Spurs won't be Jones, Vassell, some three-and-D wing, some two-way PF and Wemby. Or if it's not Jones someone basically just like him who knows their role and can keep things moving around their star wings. What is true is that most title-teams with superstar front-court players also employ star guards. That second guard, however, tends to be a role-player. Given that Vassell is auditioning for second-banana guard right now, it might make sense to see how they play with competing-level role-players rather than just throw out whatever units Pop can think up.

[scott]

I didn’t say sabotaging the season i said sabotaging the starters. You are stunting the development and chemistry of Victor, Vassell, Collins, keldon if you throw the monkey wrench that is Sochan into the mix. We aren’t seeing what this unit actually should look or play like because they have long stretches of complete incompetence from the table setter in the lineup.

it’s like evaluating an nfl offense when your qb is Tim tebow

And at least from my POV this is the reason we are seeing some anti-productive hero balling. The team can’t rely on the offense flowing how it’s designed to they take matters into their own hands. Vassell has been money so far this season, but some of his shot selection has been questionable (and I’ve noticed even one of the national TV halftime shows calling it out, I think against the Suns). We can’t rely on Vassell performing above mean expectations all the time - at some point there will be a regression. It would be in our best interest for our team to develop the right way, not in this helter skelter, every man for themselves kind of way.

[Dex]

We’re not tanking, not even stealth. Pop had easy chances to dump both Phoenix games, like he did so many last year, and declined. We’re also not trying to win. It’s not about the team running better. Think of this as the Spurs “gap year”, where they run off to Europe, smoke dope, and ride around on a Eurail pass.

Sorry ex, but this statement doesn't make sense.

I'm one of the biggest Pop defenders on this board, but I also like to think I can see the big picture and will disagree with him when I see fit.

Maybe Tre could learn from leading this team as a PG. Maybe Sochan could learn from playing a more natural position in his 2nd year instead of trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

If we aren't tanking, but also aren't trying to win...as you put it...then what the fuck are we doing?

Things move fast in pro sports. You aren't afforded "gap years"...you are either improving or declining.

[exstatic]

Sorry ex, but this statement doesn't make sense.

I'm one of the biggest Pop defenders on this board, but I also like to think I can see the big picture and will disagree with him when I see fit.

Maybe Tre could learn from leading this team as a PG. Maybe Sochan could learn from playing a more natural position in his 2nd year instead of trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

If we aren't tanking, but also aren't trying to win...as you put it...then what the fuck are we doing?

Things move fast in pro sports. You aren't afforded "gap years"...you are either improving or declining.

Experimenting. Do you pay no attention to what PATFO has been saying? Like since summer league?


Not dumping games, but not putting the best current lineups on the floor, either, in lieu of creating possible better future lineups.

[KobesAchilles]

Experimenting. Do you pay no attention to what PATFO has been saying? Like since summer league?


Not dumping games, but not putting the best current lineups on the floor, either, in lieu of creating possible better future lineups.
except this is not a future better line up. I doubt more than 3 non Wemby current Spurs will be on the team in 5 years

[Dex]

Experimenting. Do you pay no attention to what PATFO has been saying? Like since summer league?


Not dumping games, but not putting the best current lineups on the floor, either, in lieu of creating possible better future lineups.

So, we just gonna fuck around for a season?

What is the benefit there?

We are either playing for a draft pick, or playing to win. Anywhere between those options is a stupid decision.

[scott]

So, we just gonna fuck around for a season?

What is the benefit there?

We are either playing for a draft pick, or playing to win. Anywhere between those options is a stupid decision.

We can relive the glory days of the DDR/DJM play-in era

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So, we just gonna fuck around for a season?

What is the benefit there?

We are either playing for a draft pick, or playing to win. Anywhere between those options is a stupid decision.

Binary thinking leads you into all kinds of false dichotomies.

Pop and the Spurs have moved from talent acquisition priority to skill development priority. The Spurs have been doing this for years particularly in the 00s before the d league really developed into what we have today.

All throughout the golden years of 1999 - 2017 Popovich developed a pretty famous routine of using the first half of the season through early March to try lineups and players with an emphasis on development. It is also why you always hear about Popovich starting out every training camp with 'this is how we dribble,' 'this is how we pass,' 'this is how we set a screen,' etc.

Then it would culminate in the rodeo road trip where Pop would use team building exercises to really set in what they were going to do down the stretch. This is all part of why the Spurs are world renowned for player development.

[Mugen]

"You see Pop's actually a genius for being so retarded"

[Mugen]

What you don’t understand is that this season should be about wemby and not about sochan

give Jeremy his 10-15 minutes of point guard experimentation with the second unit instead of sabotaging the starters

Wemby could leave the team after 4 years and ex would say he's not Spurs material and it's actually a good thing :lol

[Mugen]

So many of the young guys' growth/confidence is being shaken and stunted because of this BS "experiment year". Pop could literally shit on the court and the Suckers would litigate on why it's a CIA move :lol

[weebo]

I don't know if any of you caught today's pregame presser but Pop was asked about Wemby's development and how he currently fits on the team. Pop basically said that he's just letting Wemby play and that the coaching staff is trying to figure him out. I take it to mean that there are no expectations this year beyond learning and teaching. It could also mean that some of Wemby's current teammates won't be Spurs for too long if their games don't compliment Wemby's.

[DAF86]

To think we could have had Sasser, but decided to trade down, instead of trading up.

[Mugen]

Spurs will get a top 5 pick again and you'll hear the same shit from the Sniff crew about next year being an "experiment." Anything to absolve their precious PATFO from any accountability :lol

[itzsoweezee]

but not putting the best current lineups on the floor, either, in lieu of creating possible better future lineups.

The hell does this mean?

[KDKSpurs24]

To think we could have had Sasser, but decided to trade down, instead of trading up.
Don’t dwell on it. Pop wouldn’t even be playing him

[exstatic]

So, we just gonna fuck around for a season?

What is the benefit there?

We are either playing for a draft pick, or playing to win. Anywhere between those options is a stupid decision.

Yes. How can this even be a question at this point, with as many times as it’s been stated?

PATFO seems to think there is a benefit to figuring out Wemby’s game. YMMV.

Whatever.

[rascal]

To think we could have had Sasser, but decided to trade down, instead of trading up.

Didn't understand that trading away when there were good players on the board.

[exstatic]

I don't know if any of you caught today's pregame presser but Pop was asked about Wemby's development and how he currently fits on the team. Pop basically said that he's just letting Wemby play and that the coaching staff is trying to figure him out. I take it to mean that there are no expectations this year beyond learning and teaching. It could also mean that some of Wemby's current teammates won't be Spurs for too long if their games don't compliment Wemby's.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS POST 100 TIMES, AND INTERNALIZE IT. THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL FOR THIS FUCKING SEASON. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, CHECK OUT, AND CHECK BACK IN FOR THE DRAFT PROCESS. THROWING YOURSELF ON THE GROUND AND HAVING A TANTRUM WON’T AFFECT THE SPURS PROCESS ONE IOTA. IT JUST MAKES YOU LOOK DUMB.

[Degoat]

Didn't understand that trading down when there were good players on the board.

Doesn’t help that the guard you drafted last year (Blake Wesley hasn’t done anything noteworthy to improve) I hate this Sochan experiment tho. I know they don’t want to go back and make it seem like Sochans failed but the SL needs to be Tre, Dev, KJ, Wemby, Zach

[itzsoweezee]

EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS POST 100 TIMES, AND INTERNALIZE IT. THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL FOR THIS FUCKING SEASON. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, CHECK OUT, AND CHECK BACK IN FOR THE DRAFT PROCESS. THROWING YOURSELF ON THE GROUND AND HAVING A TANTRUM WON’T AFFECT THE SPURS PROCESS ONE IOTA. IT JUST MAKES YOU LOOK DUMB.

Oh this is why Sochan is playing point guard? Because it somehow factors into the coaching staff figuring wemby out? The fuck? You guys are just making shit up now.

[MultiTroll]

Yes. How can this even be a question at this point, with as many times as it’s been stated?

PATFO seems to think there is a benefit to figuring out Wemby’s game. YMMV.

Whatever.
When Wemby is wide open for the lob and others regualarly ignore him and hog the ball.

Give us the Sniffer take on why this is beneficial and why it's unreasonable to expect a level of BBIQ a 7 year old possesses and thus those elementary passes be made.
Spare us the *Super Secret CIA POP* stuff please.

[FutureMan]

EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ THIS POST 100 TIMES, AND INTERNALIZE IT. THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL FOR THIS FUCKING SEASON. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, CHECK OUT, AND CHECK BACK IN FOR THE DRAFT PROCESS. THROWING YOURSELF ON THE GROUND AND HAVING A TANTRUM WON’T AFFECT THE SPURS PROCESS ONE IOTA. IT JUST MAKES YOU LOOK DUMB.

Who said it has to be the whole season? He just said “for a while”. That can certainly mean before or by the trade deadline. Sure some posters (and maybe even players) are losing patience but the Spurs also shouldn’t throw away an entire season when their franchise player has made it VERY clear that his favorite thing to do is win. By the trade deadline the Spurs will have played every team except Brooklyn. They will have played 18/29 teams at least twice. If they can’t turn it around and start winning games a trade should be made.

[SPURt]

Sochan is not the problem. His play is not keeping the Spurs from winning :lol We’ve seen the Bryn Forbes era and the Matt Bonner era and the Trey Lyles era, y’all are acting like Sochan at point is bad, funny stuff

[KobesAchilles]

I don’t mind experimenting but only when it makes sense. Like Dantoni or Rivers making Harden the PG. He isn’t really a PG but he has elite handles, can get to the rim, create for others when he wants to, there was enough there where even though there were negative aspects to the experiment, he dribbled a lot, he isn’t always looking out for others, his mindset seemed to depend on his praise from the media, where you can see why they made him a PG to begin with and let him run the offense.

There is nothing about Sochans game that would let anyone believe that he could be a PG. He isn’t an elite passser, creator for others, dribbler, he can’t finish in the paint, he has no midrange and no 3 point shot. Even though he is taller than his opponents you can still guard him with a small bc he can’t score the ball. He has no feel for the position, no feel for how to run a game, and for some reason all of the sniffers just rationalize that playing PG is easy and anybody can do it. Even the comp to Ben Simmons doesn’t make any sense bc of the fact that Simmons was way ahead of Sochan as a dribbler and creator, and equal to Sochan in shooting. But beyond that Philly never made it past the second round with Simmons and none of Spurstalk wanted prime Simmons anyways so why do they want Sochan to become like him?

KJ isn’t on our team in 5 years. Vassell should be if he can stay healthy. Jones might be our backup for years. Especially if we draft a PG this year. Heck I’d take a flyer on Ivey from Detroit. But my point is that most of this team will be gone and I don’t mind experimenting and seeing who will stay and go, who fits with Wemby and who doesn’t, who develops and who doesn’t. I understand that. But I’m more frustrated bc I feel like Sochan isn’t getting a fair shot to play to his strengths and build up his confidence on what he can do instead of hope and pray for something that even he feels like he can’t do. He’s only 20. Shit can kill his confidence. Especially when he is already super raw. It’s not like he has an elite skill to fall back on. I’d hate to waste a year of developing him as this PG only for him to be a starting PF next year and then maybe he struggles with that bc he it’s a completely different position. And then he has to learn a new shit all over again and his confidence isn’t the same.

There’s a real shot that at the end of his rookie contract, we actually don’t know how good of a fit he is on the team and his development isn’t as good had we just developed him properly instead of trying to microwave him into something he isn’t. That’s the confusing part of the experiment. Why the rush?

[rankingtear]

Sochan is actually playing well and the OG starting lineup in November is +17.9 and only behind BOS in defensive rating. A 50+ net rating jump from last month. Small sample size but a lot of geniuses is calling for Pop's head already based on that sample size.

[playbonner15]

Sochan is not the problem. His play is not keeping the Spurs from winning :lol We’ve seen the Bryn Forbes era and the Matt Bonner era and the Trey Lyles era, y’all are acting like Sochan at point is bad, funny stuff

What's Forbes doing nowadays? Might be good starting pg

[Bruno]

Spurs have three goals this season:
1) Develop young players.
2) Evaluate their roster.
3) Get a great draft pick next June.

FO and Pop are working together on that:
When Wright didn't add a single vet FA and waived the ones added through trades, it isn't only to give as much playing time to the young players. It is also to ensure Spurs aren't competitive.
When Pop plays Sochan out of position, it isn't only to develop him. It is also a move that hurts Spurs results short term wise.

No teams is actively trying to lose games in November. Even last season, with a way more promising draft, Spurs started the season 5-2. The FO and Pop have put Spurs in a situation to be one of the worst team in the NBA and that's how you "tank".

While Spurs have a lot of future draft assets, they have one assets that is way above all the other: their own 2024 first round draft pick. Other assets are nowhere near as good with likely no other top10 picks in the next 5 years.

[Raven]

He seems a great fit for the position, it is very obvious why pop is doing this. No he will never be chris paul in handles, but those are the most overrated skill in basketball anyway. He has a lot to improve, but he has been milking his size advantage in the post for a while now. At pf it was a very low upside position, like it or not.

[playbonner15]

While Spurs ahve a lot of future draft assets, they have one assets that is way above all the other: their own 2024 first round draft pick. Other assets are nowhere near as good with likely no other top10 picks in the news 5 years.

Makes sense to "not compete" this season. Next year, Wemby has had a full NBA season and FO knows what kind of team they want around him

[slick'81]

Pops just keeping his ass in the starting lineup. Sochan needs to chill with all the moping

[R. DeMurre]

In his interview with Tony, Manu says the FO is thinking 3 years before they seriously compete.

[John B]

https://youtu.be/pT9CQNvQvyw?si=s1xwkVrJiKtKT3kb

I love this old interview, especially now that Jeremy is playing the PG role that TP did. As TP said, there will be ups and downs and I’m sure Jeremy is experiencing it. But as TP kept emphasizing, it’s a process. I’m hoping Jeremy keeps remembering that, and that Pop was tough on TP but made him better, a 4 times champion and a HOFer. Keep pounding the rock!

[Obstructed_View]

Attempting something many think is impossible, while playing at the highest level and dealing with bouts of frustration seems pretty natural. Persisting and working hard with a good attitude is fairly admirable.

[spurraider21]

Spurs have three goals this season:
1) Develop young players.
2) Evaluate their roster.
3) Get a great draft pick next June.

FO and Pop are working together on that:
When Wright didn't add a single vet FA and waived the ones added through trades, it isn't only to give as much playing time to the young players. It is also to ensure Spurs aren't competitive.
When Pop plays Sochan out of position, it isn't only to develop him. It is also a move that hurts Spurs results short term wise.

No teams is actively trying to lose games in November. Even last season, with a way more promising draft, Spurs started the season 5-2. The FO and Pop have put Spurs in a situation to be one of the worst team in the NBA and that's how you "tank".

While Spurs have a lot of future draft assets, they have one assets that is way above all the other: their own 2024 first round draft pick. Other assets are nowhere near as good with likely no other top10 picks in the next 5 years.
i agree with a lot of this, though im not sure that scaling back the sochan PG experiment would suddenly mean we win significantly more games. would make a better product, though, and imo would do more to develop young players if the offense they were in had more direction and was run more like a professional offense. right now it just ends up being a lot of dribble handoffs that go nowhere until the clock starts winding down. im not sure who thats meant to help

[pad300]

...

It’s impossible to sabotage a season that is an experiment, starters or otherwise.

You know, this struck me as wrong when I first read it, and now I can express why.

The purpose of experiments is to learn things by testing them. However, if you don't control your other variables well enough in an experiment, you can't tell anything from the results. That is where PG Sochan fails as an experiment. Sochan is bad enough at PG (right now at least), that it doesn't let you get relevant data about what Wemby's real capabilities project to be. Asking a big man to operate without a competent PG will make even HoF big men look bad...

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Sorry ex, but this statement doesn't make sense.

I'm one of the biggest Pop defenders on this board, but I also like to think I can see the big picture and will disagree with him when I see fit.

Maybe Tre could learn from leading this team as a PG. Maybe Sochan could learn from playing a more natural position in his 2nd year instead of trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

If we aren't tanking, but also aren't trying to win...as you put it...then what the fuck are we doing?

Things move fast in pro sports. You aren't afforded "gap years"...you are either improving or declining.

I agree with you Dex. Experimenting for what? There's no purpose, because I can guarantee that this group that Pop's currently running out there won't ever be competing for a championship, and won't be the roster we see in a year or two. Experiment by bringing in guys who can actually run the offense. Experiment by working on ways to maximize Wemby. Experiment by finding guys who embrace the new face of the team. The focus needs to be building the team around Wemby, not developing guys to play out of position so "hopefully" we can be good enough for the play-in tournament in a couple of years. Time to get tough, and it feels like we're still willing to hold people's hands and say "losing by 40 is ok, here's your $6million paycheck. Good try!"

You draft the franchise player and the formula changes. Pop's stuck in the 5 year re-build mentality. News flash...game has changed by winning the Wemby lottery. Time to step it up. A gap year is equal to a lost year. Meaningless. Wemby wants to play games that matter, not fvck around playing grab-ass with a bunch of fvck faces who can barely get the ball up court. He's hating this, starting to already force sh!t. Get him some mentors. Add some vets. Get some guys who can think out there. Not rookies who've never faced a tough situation in the NBA. Don't leave Wemby on an island. The island of misfit Spurs.

If you ask Wemby, he'd absolutely say he doesn't want his rookie year to be a year the team just messed around and didn't care about winning.

[Kawhi Duncan]

The primary focus of this season should be developing Wemby so we know how we can better build around him... Playing Sohan at PG... a dude that has no actual PG skills, significantly hinders Wemby's development... And can have an effect on whether or not he wants to stay in a few years

[Dex]

I agree with you Dex. Experimenting for what? There's no purpose, because I can guarantee that this group that Pop's currently running out there won't ever be competing for a championship, and won't be the roster we see in a year or two. Experiment by bringing in guys who can actually run the offense. Experiment by working on ways to maximize Wemby. Experiment by finding guys who embrace the new face of the team. The focus needs to be building the team around Wemby, not developing guys to play out of position so "hopefully" we can be good enough for the play-in tournament in a couple of years. Time to get tough, and it feels like we're still willing to hold people's hands and say "losing by 40 is ok, here's your $6million paycheck. Good try!"

You draft the franchise player and the formula changes. Pop's stuck in the 5 year re-build mentality. News flash...game has changed by winning the Wemby lottery. Time to step it up. A gap year is equal to a lost year. Meaningless. Wemby wants to play games that matter, not fvck around playing grab-ass with a bunch of fvck faces who can barely get the ball up court. He's hating this, starting to already force sh!t. Get him some mentors. Add some vets. Get some guys who can think out there. Not rookies who've never faced a tough situation in the NBA. Don't leave Wemby on an island. The island of misfit Spurs.

If you ask Wemby, he'd absolutely say he doesn't want his rookie year to be a year the team just messed around and didn't care about winning.

Spurs fans (myself included) got spoiled by 20+ years of greatness.

These past few years are the news flash. That shit doesn't come easily. Just saying FIRE POP doesn't fix all of our current problems, but everyone is looking for easy answers.

I'd love for this team to be playing better, but this is the cold reality of rebuilds being difficult...even after adding a #1 pick.

We aren't adding a Tim Duncan to a David Robinson. We are adding a Victor Wembenyama to a....Devin Vassel, I guess? Who hasn't really proven anything

I can and will continue to bitch about this because that's what this forum is for, but people need to calm down and realize we are still in the very beginning of what will be a 3-5 years process

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan still better at running point than Dejounte was at the same stage, and Dejounte was older and had more experienced teammates.

[exstatic]

The one thing he does that must drive Pop absolutely crazy is leaving his feet to pass. He also picks up his dribble when he shouldn’t. DJ did that, too, early on,so it’s something that can be fixed.

[scott]

If it wouldn't result in his immediate firing, what Brian Wright should do is walk into Pop's office, Billy Beane style, and say "you aren't going to start Sochan at PG anymore."

"The hell I'm not!" retorts Pop.

"You can't start Sochan at PG anymore because I just traded him to Philly."

"What the fuck! I'll start Keldon at PG then!"

"You can't do that either, because I just traded him to Detroit."

Instead of watching the Spurs lose again this afternoon I'll just watch Moneyball instead.

[Tyronn Lue]

Jones is not a starting level point guard, but Sochan isn’t even a third string level point guard. There are many ways to involve Sochan as a facilitator without making him a point guard. I’ve yet to see any reasonable explanation for this lineup situation. Even popovich recognizes that it doesn’t work, hence his going away from it down the stretch against Minnesota
Pop is doing the playthrough for the upteenth time. He's opened the developer console and entered some random codes to see what happens.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Sochan still better at running point than Dejounte was at the same stage, and Dejounte was older and had more experienced teammates.

The difference is Murray actually played PG his entire life... Jeremy didn't... We need to accept that not everyone can be a PG... sometimes we need to let a PF be a PF and let a PG be a PG...

[exstatic]

The difference is Murray actually played PG his entire life... Jeremy didn't... We need to accept that not everyone can be a PG... sometimes we need to let a PF be a PF and let a PG be a PG...

Murray couldn’t even dribble when he got here. He played SF as a rookie so he could get on the court.

[MultiTroll]

It is also to ensure Spurs aren't competitive.
When Pop plays Sochan out of position, it isn't only to develop him. It is also a move that hurts Spurs results short term wise.

<How do you harmonize the above statements with the below?>

No teams is actively trying to lose games in November.

[Chinook]

Murray couldn’t even dribble when he got here. He played SF as a rookie so he could get on the court.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/murrade01/lineups/2017

Murray didn't play any substantial minutes at any position that wasn't PG or "PG" next to Manu. He played substantial minutes next to Mills and Forbes his second season. I guess if you want to argue Manu and Mills were the guards, then Murray played SF for part of that season. Seeing as Manu played small-forward with relative frequency, I wouldn't make that assumption.

I'm not going to get into Sochan at PG at this point. Sochan vs Jones basically Poke vs Clarke in a different form -- it's about whether the Spurs should take long odds hoping for a big payout or make the play for the high-floor guy with a visible ceiling. I think we know where each other stands on that.

[Obstructed_View]

The difference is Murray actually played PG his entire life... Jeremy didn't... We need to accept that not everyone can be a PG... sometimes we need to let a PF be a PF and let a PG be a PG...
You're making my case for me. Murray had every advantage, and Sochan is still further along than Murray was. But you guys shit all over Murray every time he made a mistake too. Perhaps I should stop being surprised that Spurfan seems to need a villain to heap all the blame on, logic be damned.

[z0sa]

Can we all agree that if developing Sochan at PG negatively affects Wemby’s development, ITS FUCKING STUPID????

[spursparker9]

Can we all agree that if developing Sochan at PG negatively affects Wemby’s development, ITS FUCKING STUPID????

:lol It is not even assured that Sochan will eventually be "developed" at PG.

It might be we can't even trade Sochan for a bag of chips and Wemby just force a trade. :lol :pop:

[z0sa]

:lol It is not even assured that Sochan will eventually be "developed" at PG.

It might be we can't even trade Sochan for a bag of chips and Wemby just force a trade. :lol :pop:

:lmao sooo true. Sochan ain't ever gonna be a PG, it's not hate. He's just not that type of mindset. He's someone who should be running around off the ball trying to set screens and get open for dunks, not the other side of the equation. :pop:

[Raven]

Can we all agree that if developing Sochan at PG negatively affects Wemby’s development, ITS FUCKING STUPID????

well if you start with that assumption... but it could actually be good in that he doesn't become strictly a pick an roll player and coast the rest of his career. Of course, if he never exploits his massive pick and roll advantage, that's not good either.

[z0sa]

well if you start with that assumption... but it could actually be good in that he doesn't become strictly a pick an roll player and coast the rest of his career. Of course, if he never exploits his massive pick and roll advantage, that's not good either.

Good for HIM (sochan), yeah sure! But he's not the focus of development by a long shot, Wemby is?

[Tyronn Lue]

Pop has never been afraid to do things differently, even if the results are bad. Intentionally fouling, for example, or sitting the starting lineup in the playoffs.

[Tyronn Lue]

Good for HIM (sochan), yeah sure! But he's not the focus of development by a long shot, Wemby is?
The coaches have a team full of players. They cannot ignore everyone except Victor. That's not Pop's style, supposedly everyone on the roster gets the same treatment.

[Dex]

The one thing he does that must drive Pop absolutely crazy is leaving his feet to pass. He also picks up his dribble when he shouldn’t. DJ did that, too, early on,so it’s something that can be fixed.

I've noticed this, too. Too often he stops his dribble, then surveys....then makes a decision and passes.

Obviously he is still learning and it is hard to make good, smart decisions on the fly...but it definitely just bogs down the offense because everyone just kinda stops to see what he is going to do which gives the defense time to catch up. At that point, all the good options are gone.

[z0sa]

The coaches have a team full of players. They cannot ignore everyone except Victor. That's not Pop's style, supposedly everyone on the roster gets the same treatment.

Pop’s objectively wrong if he puts the development of role players above or at the same level even as our generational talent.

[Dex]

Pop’s objectively wrong if he puts the development of role players above or at the same level even as our generational talent.

Tyronn is just trolling or, at least, being misinterpreted.

Pop "giving everyone the same treatment" refers to how he could yell at Tim or Tony or Manu, so guys like Finley or Barry or Horry knew they had to take it as well.

Nobody in their right mind believes that Tim didn't have a huge influence on decisions on and off the floor. If Tim said "give me the ball", Pop would do it. And he will probably do the same for Victor when he is ready. He wouldn't do the same if someone like Collins or Bassey demanded it.

[z0sa]

Tyronn is just trolling or, at least, being misinterpreted.

Pop "giving everyone the same treatment" refers to how he could yell at Tim or Tony or Manu, so guys like Finley or Barry or Horry knew they had to take it as well.

Nobody in their right mind believes that Tim didn't have a huge influence on decisions on and off the floor. If Tim said "give me the ball", Pop would do it. And he will probably do the same for Victor when he is ready. He wouldn't do the same if someone like Collins or Bassey demanded it.

I mean, I get it sopmewhat dude -- but, it seems like a fruitless endeavor if it's directly going to affect Wemby's confidence and growth. Which at this point it feels like it definitely is, to me. How do you feel about Sochan's direct/indirect influence on Wemby's looks/touches when he (Jeremy) is playing PG? Tre Jones isn't even that great honestly but the offense actually flows when he's in, it feels like a normal NBA basketball game. It's the eye test only but I'm sure more advanced stats back this up.

[Dex]

I mean, I get it sopmewhat dude -- but, it seems like a fruitless endeavor if it's directly going to affect Wemby's confidence and growth. Which at this point it feels like it definitely is, to me. How do you feel about Sochan's direct/indirect influence on Wemby's looks/touches when he (Jeremy) is playing PG? Tre Jones isn't even that great honestly but the offense actually flows when he's in, it feels like a normal NBA basketball game. It's the eye test only but I'm sure more advanced stats back this up.

I've been pretty vocal that Sochan is making things worse, not better.

It's going to be difficult for Wemby to learn the fundamentals when he doesn't have an actual point guard and nobody else knows how to play around him. It hurts his development, and we are reaching the point where I believe it is hurting Sochan's development, too. Instead of honing abilities that play to his skill set, he is being forced to shove a square peg in a round hole.

I didn't expect things to click on day one, but I'm ready to pull the plug on Sochan at PG as soon as possible. Tre Jones coming off the bench doesn't do us much good if our starting lineup is consistently putting us in 10-20 point holes.

[z0sa]

I've been pretty vocal that Sochan is making things worse, not better.

It's going to be difficult for Wemby to learn the fundamentals when he doesn't have an actual point guard and nobody else knows how to play around him. It hurts his development, and we are reaching the point where I believe it is hurting Sochan's development, too. Instead of honing abilities that play to his skill set, he is being forced to shove a square peg in a round hole.

I didn't expect things to click on day one, but I'm ready to pull the plug on Sochan at PG as soon as possible. Tre Jones coming off the bench doesn't do us much good if our starting lineup is consistently putting us in 10-20 point holes.

+11111000000

So lemme follow up with this: if Pop refuses to pull the plug as we believe he should, how bad is the damage to Wemby?

[KobesAchilles]

I just keep thinking of the arrogance of PATFO and it’s frustrating. They really thought we didn’t need a PG or vets. It’s just hard to accept that. The price of Lillard was too high. Ok I can accept that. Jrue Holliday as well. Ok I can accept that.

But the problem with this team is they’re so damn young. And I keep hearing oh they need to learn how to do win and learn how to play PG and learn how to do such and such. But what they really need to learn from vets are how to be pros. And that’s something you don’t learn from coaches. You learn from 10+ year players. And for some reason Pop believed he could teach EVERYTHING to his team by himself. When logically he couldn’t.

CP3 was perfect for the team. He was cheap to acquire. He was a one year player so it didn’t tie any future money. He could maybe teach Sochan how to play PG if that really is the future goal. He could run the offense. He could set up Wemby. And he could show the team how to be pros. Bc this team isn’t going to magically learn to win like Spurstalk believes. You need players who are professionals, who have been through the fire, who know the craft, and who will hold the team accountable since the old man apparently isn’t.

[Mugen]

I don't even mind the not signing vets part tbh. But Pop is basically 2022-2023 Stephen Silas in that there's no discernible improvement/development happening right now and the young guys are being done zero favors.

I don't expect them to win 35+ games but to look this absolutely terrible in every facet of the game is inxecusable.

The real scary thing is that Silas was fired after last season while the old man just got another 5 years. Smh.

[scott]

I don't even mind the not signing vets part tbh. But Pop is basically 2022-2023 Stephen Silas in that there's no discernible improvement/development happening right now and the young guys are being done zero favors.

I don't expect them to win 35+ games but to look this absolutely terrible in every facet of the game is inxecusable.

The real scary thing is that Silas was fired after last season while the old man just got another 5 years. Smh.

I am generally a "Sniffer", but I 100% agree with this. It's absurd.

[Dex]

+11111000000

So lemme follow up with this: if Pop refuses to pull the plug as we believe he should, how bad is the damage to Wemby?

Could cost him ROY. Chet and the Thunder are playing great, meanwhile Wemby's shooting percentage is falling because he is trying to do it all by himself, and the Spurs look destined for another top-5 pick.

[Tyronn Lue]

Tyronn is just trolling or, at least, being misinterpreted.

Pop "giving everyone the same treatment" refers to how he could yell at Tim or Tony or Manu, so guys like Finley or Barry or Horry knew they had to take it as well.

Nobody in their right mind believes that Tim didn't have a huge influence on decisions on and off the floor. If Tim said "give me the ball", Pop would do it. And he will probably do the same for Victor when he is ready. He wouldn't do the same if someone like Collins or Bassey demanded it.
Pop was doing that to win, not to develop Tim. Tim was already "baked in the oven" according to Pop and according to his performances. Victor has some amazing abilities but they come with the caveat "for his size". He has to learn to take advantage of his size. If he's going to dribble into a 3, he might as well be 6'7.

[TD 21]

I know he's been put in a position to fail, but he also typifies everything wrong with this organization. No standout physical trait or skill and soft (easily bullied/put under the rim by like-sized Barnes and Scumbag and fronting George, who lacks their strength), but at least he fits their narrow minded description of "character".

They need to start targeting specifics and stop ignoring analytics and common sense. They're not miracle workers; there is no magic pixie dust.

If a player is inefficient and lacks the aforementioned standouts attributes, that's unlikely to ever change. The same archetypes (of which he's one) keep busting and they just keep picking them.

[Extra Stout]

The Sochan at point guard experiment is so mindless. It’s as though Pop couldn’t figure out how to resolve the logjam at forward, and so that was his solution not to have to send either Johnson or Sochan to the bench.

It completely destroys the team. No spacing. No plays. No easy baskets. They may talk a good game and try to stay positive, but this is destroying the team. Nobody is developing. Nobody is getting a feel for anybody else. If they stick with this, they’ll throw away a whole year still not knowing what they have in Wembanyama.

[RC_Drunkford]

I totally expect Pop to run this experiment until the season is over. His ego is just too big to admit that he‘s wrong.

[Extra Stout]

The priority this season was supposed to be to develop Victor Wembanyama. It was supposed to be to figure out how to use him best in the NBA. He is a unicorn, a once-in-a-generation windfall for any franchise.

And they’re fucking it up. Popovich is fucking it up with this Sochan experiment. Sochan is not a once-in-a-generation talent. Ultimately if he doesn’t fit he is expendable. Don’t throw good money after bad. You don’t frustrate your potential superstar with some harebrained scheme to get around the fact that the pieces at forward don’t all fit.

Frankly the odd man out should be, and always should have been, Keldon Johnson. He’s a 6th year player. We know what he is. Part of what he is is bad defense. But he’s a “vocal leader”? Does his leadership look effective to anybody? Does this team look inspired? Does it look like it’s rallying around anything? How much worse can they play? They lose by 25 to a sub-.500 team and the coach lauds their “effort.”

Or hey, if they decide they just love KJ too much to part with him, then move Sochan. Give him a chance to succeed somewhere.

This experiment is not necessary. Tre Jones is not the only point guard on the roster. DEVONTE’ GRAHAM CAN PLAY POINT GUARD. He put up 18 and 8 just a few years ago. I’m not saying he’s great. But he is at least serviceable. He can get the team into sets.

This Sochan thing is just Pop — who preaches “humility” and “getting over oneself” — sniffing his own farts and outsmarting himself. You know what? Wembanyama is more important than Pop to the future of this franchise. If Pop is standing in the way of his development, then ownership has a responsibility to Tom Landry his ass.

[koriwhat]

The priority this season was supposed to be to develop Victor Wembanyama. It was supposed to be to figure out how to use him best in the NBA. He is a unicorn, a once-in-a-generation windfall for any franchise.

And they’re fucking it up. Popovich is fucking it up with this Sochan experiment. Sochan is not a once-in-a-generation talent. Ultimately if he doesn’t fit he is expendable. Don’t throw good money after bad. You don’t frustrate your potential superstar with some harebrained scheme to get around the fact that the pieces at forward don’t all fit.

Frankly the odd man out should be, and always should have been, Keldon Johnson. He’s a 6th year player. We know what he is. Part of what he is is bad defense. But he’s a “vocal leader”? Does his leadership look effective to anybody? Does this team look inspired? Does it look like it’s rallying around anything? How much worse can they play? They lose by 25 to a sub-.500 team and the coach lauds their “effort.”

Or hey, if they decide they just love KJ too much to part with him, then move Sochan. Give him a chance to succeed somewhere.

This experiment is not necessary. Tre Jones is not the only point guard on the roster. DEVONTE’ GRAHAM CAN PLAY POINT GUARD. He put up 18 and 8 just a few years ago. I’m not saying he’s great. But he is at least serviceable. He can get the team into sets.

This Sochan thing is just Pop — who preaches “humility” and “getting over oneself” — sniffing his own farts and outsmarting himself. You know what? Wembanyama is more important than Pop to the future of this franchise. If Pop is standing in the way of his development, then ownership has a responsibility to Tom Landry his ass.

The only one working hard next to Wemby is Johnson. He also looks to be Wemby's #1 fan too. I say keep him!

[z0sa]

Could cost him ROY. Chet and the Thunder are playing great, meanwhile Wemby's shooting percentage is falling because he is trying to do it all by himself, and the Spurs look destined for another top-5 pick.

Man, if Wemby misses ROTY, I will be so pissed. I cant even imagine how mych that would sting him. ��

[exstatic]

The priority this season was supposed to be to develop Victor Wembanyama. It was supposed to be to figure out how to use him best in the NBA. He is a unicorn, a once-in-a-generation windfall for any franchise.

And they’re fucking it up. Popovich is fucking it up with this Sochan experiment. Sochan is not a once-in-a-generation talent. Ultimately if he doesn’t fit he is expendable. Don’t throw good money after bad. You don’t frustrate your potential superstar with some harebrained scheme to get around the fact that the pieces at forward don’t all fit.

Frankly the odd man out should be, and always should have been, Keldon Johnson. He’s a 6th year player. We know what he is. Part of what he is is bad defense. But he’s a “vocal leader”? Does his leadership look effective to anybody? Does this team look inspired? Does it look like it’s rallying around anything? How much worse can they play? They lose by 25 to a sub-.500 team and the coach lauds their “effort.”

Or hey, if they decide they just love KJ too much to part with him, then move Sochan. Give him a chance to succeed somewhere.

This experiment is not necessary. Tre Jones is not the only point guard on the roster. DEVONTE’ GRAHAM CAN PLAY POINT GUARD. He put up 18 and 8 just a few years ago. I’m not saying he’s great. But he is at least serviceable. He can get the team into sets.

This Sochan thing is just Pop — who preaches “humility” and “getting over oneself” — sniffing his own farts and outsmarting himself. You know what? Wembanyama is more important than Pop to the future of this franchise. If Pop is standing in the way of his development, then ownership has a responsibility to Tom Landry his ass.

So we can win 30 games, and pick in the back half of the lottery? That’s what all of your piss and vinegar is about? 30 games?

[KobesAchilles]

So we can win 30 games, and pick in the back half of the lottery? That’s what all of your piss and vinegar is about? 30 games?
Maybe some fans don’t like being the worst defense in the league. Maybe some fans don’t like having the worst point differential in the league. Nobody was expecting championship but we are expecting fight from the team. A step in the right direction or at the very least a path to the right direction. And I doubt even you, as gun ho as you are about this Sochan experiment, will say this is a step in the right direction for developing this team going forward. Bc in your heart of hearts, you don’t see Sochan as our PG for the next decade.

All I wanted was to do right by Wemby now that he is on the team. Surround him with proper vets, get a PG who can run the show, and show this young ass team who doesn’t know how to wipe their ass what professionalism really is. Bc the truth is that when the game starts to go south, this team folds, and it’s bc nobody knows what the fuck to do in order to win games.

[exstatic]

Maybe some fans don’t like being the worst defense in the league. Maybe some fans don’t like having the worst point differential in the league. Nobody was expecting championship but we are expecting fight from the team. A step in the right direction or at the very least a path to the right direction. And I doubt even you, as gun ho as you are about this Sochan experiment, will say this is a step in the right direction for developing this team going forward. Bc in your heart of hearts, you don’t see Sochan as our PG for the next decade.

All I wanted was to do right by Wemby now that he is on the team. Surround him with proper vets, get a PG who can run the show, and show this young ass team who doesn’t know how to wipe their ass what professionalism really is. Bc the truth is that when the game starts to go south, this team folds, and it’s bc nobody knows what the fuck to do in order to win games.

OKC tanked for a few years, and it seems to have worked out for them. This is literally our last chance for a high draft pick for a good while. We should grab the final brass ring in order to draft Wemby’s #2. I can guarantee you we’re not too likely to find him in the back half of the lottery. Not impossible, but much better odds in the top 5.

[Obstructed_View]

*checks box score, sees Tre got three steals*

JEREMY DOESNT GET STEALS HE SUCKS HES THE REASIN THE SPURS CANT COMPEET FUK SOCHAN TRADE HIM.

[Mugen]

OKC tanked for a few years, and it seems to have worked out for them. This is literally our last chance for a high draft pick for a good while. We should grab the final brass ring in order to draft Wemby’s #2. I can guarantee you we’re not too likely to find him in the back half of the lottery. Not impossible, but much better odds in the top 5.

You're going to be singing the exact same tune next season when the team is dog shit again :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

I’m taking 2013 Game 6 Turnobili over this selfish piece of shit

[tbdog]

Spurs’ Jeremy Sochan experiment has seen ‘bumps in the road’: How long will it last?

https://cdn.theathletic.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1920%2cformat=auto%2cquality=75/https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2023/11/21144441/USATSI_21945510-1024x683.jpg

By Mike Monroe (https://theathletic.com/author/mike-monroe/)Nov 22, 2023



17
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SAN ANTONIO — When word got around to NBA (https://theathletic.com/nba/) coaching circles that San Antonio Spurs (https://theathletic.com/nba/team/spurs/) coach Gregg Popovich had decided to turn 20-year-old, 6-foot-8 power forward Jeremy Sochan (https://theathletic.com/nba/player/jeremy-sochan-PeaTVw7ORtIZQpnv/) into his starting point guard this season, some in this exclusive fraternity may have wondered if the news was real or fake.
Others knew better than to be even mildly surprised.

Count Memphis Grizzlies coach Taylor Jenkins among such Popovich cognoscenti, and no wonder. He had spent six years inside the Spurs basketball operations department, first as an intern on Popovich’s (2007-08), followed by assistant coaching stints with San Antonio’s Austin Toros-turned-Austin Spurs team in the NBA’s D League-turned-G League, from 2008-12. Finally, in 2012-13, Jenkins served as the Austin Spurs head coach.
Watching Popovich from the inside taught Jenkins many valuable lessons, including the importance of thinking outside the box. Always included in Popovich’s summertime coaching retreats, where unorthodox thinking is more mandate than suggestion, Jenkins learned the importance of being open-minded.
So, when asked about Popovich’s experiment with Sochan as point guard, Jenkins expressed full understanding.
“I think that when you have been around Pop, competed against Pop, he is very open-minded to trying a lot of different things,” Jenkins said before his injury-plagued Grizzlies (https://theathletic.com/nba/team/grizzlies/) handed the Spurs their eighth straight loss Saturday night (https://theathletic.com/nba/game/memphis-grizzlies-vs-san-antonio-spurs/1zhESKoimNea8gVt/). “Obviously, in the eras that he has been here, playing big, playing small, emphasizing the 3-ball, emphasizing the paint, emphasizing faster pace than slower pace, so (Sochan at point guard), not a surprise.”
But a 6-8 power forward who had never played one minute at the point? Starting for a team that in June drafted generational big man Victor Wembanyama (https://theathletic.com/nba/player/victor-wembanyama-0lNu4P1JXZca9gqU/)?
“Sochan is a guy we studied coming into that (2022) draft,” Jenkins said. “(He has) unique playmaking ability at his size, kind of a Swiss Army knife-type player on both sides of the floor. (He) has evolved into a better shooter, but that playmaking ability always really jumped off the page.”
Jenkins’ endorsement of the move is little comfort to Sochan. After paying lip service to full buy-in to the change during the preseason and the first few regular-season games, his frustration grew to the point of exasperation as he acknowledged losing confidence in his game.

“There have been moments where it’s like, ‘Yo, I don’t want to. It’s like (expletive) this (expletive),;” Sochan told reporters after the Nov. 5 morning shootaround that preceded the Spurs’ 123-116 loss to the Toronto Raptors (https://theathletic.com/nba/team/raptors/).
Sochan came to the Spurs as the ninth pick in the 2022 NBA Draft from Baylor. He started at power forward in 53 of the 56 games he played in 2022-23. He averaged 11 points, 5.3 rebounds and 2.5 assists for a team that tied the Houston Rockets (https://theathletic.com/nba/team/rockets/) for the second-worst record in the league. He also established himself as a solid and versatile defender, adept at challenging both forwards and guards.
He did not play one minute at point guard.
But after the Spurs won the 2023 draft lottery and with it the right to make Wembanyama the No. 1 overall pick, Popovich and the rest of the Spurs basketball operations department mused about how they could optimize a 7-foot-4 teenager with an 8-foot wingspan who has both the ball skills of a guard and 3-point range.
Someone from the 2022-23 starting lineup would have to move to the bench for Wembanyama to be an immediate starter as his selection as the No. 1 overall pick demanded. Tre Jones (https://theathletic.com/nba/player/tre-jones-ILc8sZl2NSif7UQZ/), the 6-1 veteran of three seasons who started 65 games at the point in 2022-23, went to the bench.
Sochan became the starting point guard in what Popovich called the Spurs’ “official experiment of 2023-24.”
Thus far, the experiment has produced many more reactions that smell of rotten eggs than the yummy scent of cinnamon buns. Sochan is painfully aware that being the offensive catalyst can be anything but fun, as his post-shootaround rant on Nov. 5 made clear.
What also has become clear is that the only way the “official experiment” works is if the Spurs offense is running through Wembanyama. The rookie entered Monday’s game against the LA Clippers (https://theathletic.com/nba/team/clippers/), a 124-99 loss (https://theathletic.com/nba/game/la-clippers-vs-san-antonio-spurs/DqmcOnKhaXPZ3rBn/), leading the Spurs in scoring (19.3 points per game), rebounding (9.5) and blocked shots (2.6).

As Jenkins noted, Sochan has the skills to bring the ball to the frontcourt. There, his mandate appears to be less “run the offense” than “get the ball inside to Wemby.” On Monday not even this was enough to keep the Spurs losing streak from reaching nine games. The rookie from France had his worst performance of the season, missing 8-of-12 shots, including all four of his 3-point attempts. He even failed to convert a fine lob pass from Jones into a dunk. He grabbed only three rebounds.
Sochan finished with eight points and eight rebounds but a single assist in his 29-plus minutes.
Defensively, Sochan typically guards the opponents’ top offensive threat, and on Monday, that was most often Kawhi Leonard (https://theathletic.com/nba/player/kawhi-leonard-ZVBR9DRffqJpzLHV/) or Paul George (https://theathletic.com/nba/player/paul-george-kIIUTtsJtSpaZfu1/). They combined for 48 points on 19-of-33 shooting.
Nevertheless, Popovich had nothing but praise for Sochan’s defensive effort against the Clippers’ two All-Star forwards.
“He loves playing defense, going after people, being physical, competes his butt off,” Popovich said. “And, once again, he missed a lot of last year (missing 33 games with injuries). He’s learning a lot about these players and what it takes in the NBA.”
Jones logged just under 23 minutes against the Clippers as Sochan’s backup, outscored him (11-8) and had more assists (3-1). Afterward, he empathized with the transition Sochan is trying to make, very much on the fly.
”There may be a little adjustment just because it’s his first time playing point,” Jones said. “But he is doing a great job adjusting to it, and he’s continuing to grow and learn so much.
“There will be bumps in the road, but he does a great job any time there is a bump in the road to keep pushing, to keep trying to learn, talking to everyone around and trying to do everything he can to continue to improve and to grow.
“We have seen the improvements already. He is going to continue to grow. We are going to keep growing as a team together, no matter who is on the floor. We’ve all got each other’s backs and we are going to continue to keep pushing.”

Will Popovich’s patience linger? He frets that what his team, the NBA’s youngest, needs most is another victory but those who know him best assure he is committed to a long run to see if his experiment finally produces a winning formula.


“Well, he’s growing in every aspect,” Popovich said of Sochan at the point. “It’s a new position for him, so he’s learning every day, every practice, every shootaround, every game, in all areas. So that’s a work in progress, but he’s up for the task. He’s understanding more and more every night and doing a good job.”

[exstatic]

I’m taking 2013 Game 6 Turnobili over this selfish piece of shit

No one cares. You have no weight in this forum, because you know almost nothing, or maybe actually nothing about basketball.

[BatManu20]

It’s bad.

1727516279861379415

[z0sa]

It’s bad.

1727516279861379415

A fucking sixth grade girl with coke bottle lenses on her goggles could have gotten the pass in.

[objective]

Really getting tired of watching Sochan bumble around and get his pocket picked leading to a transition score.

Just poke aways alone he has to lead the league.

[TheGreatYacht]

No one cares. You have no weight in this forum, because you know almost nothing, or maybe actually nothing about basketball.
Not reading all that, don’t ever quote me again. Stick to being Pop’s cumrag

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Not reading all that, don’t ever quote me again. Stick to being Pop’s cumrag
you're such a pussy

[TheGreatYacht]

you're such a pussy
wrong account fag