Our D

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It sucks, like historically bad, for multiple seasons. With a coach known for mandating defensive effort.

Who is to blame? Is coaching or player ability the biggest culprit? Why? Why have we been bad for so long?

When will it stop being a historical abomination?

As of this thread creation on November 14th, 2023 Spurs sit with the most porous defense at 124.1 PPG. Second worst is Washington at 122.5. Our PPG differential also remains the worst in the league.

To really underscore how bad it is, we have a 19 year old rookie that had a 107.9 defensive rating before today's game and is already being talked about as a potential DPOY. So that means those numbers mentioned above are catastrophically horrendous when Wemby isn't on the court.

So we suck. Discuss.

[sananspursfan21]

Literally every team our guys play has a “hot shooting night.” I’m beginning to think I could run out there on a given night and hit 5/7 from downtown…

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Literally every team our guys play has a “hot shooting night.” I’m beginning to think I could run out there on a given night and hit 5/7 from downtown…

Yes, I started noticing that trend like 2 or 3 years ago. Can't remember if it was like 2 or 3 years ago where we gave up the highest scoring total to several players. I remember Tatum, Morant, Doncic, and KAT all 50 pieced us seemingly the same year.

Feel like Anthony Edward's also went off. Jalen Brown, CJ McCollum, Julius Randle, Embiid, Jokic.

Many guys had their "hot shooting nights" vs the Spurs over the past few years.

[Barfunk]

Coaching has to take accountability at some point................

[JeffDuncan]

It’s the coaching, or more correctly it’s the total lack of competent coaching. The players don’t know any of the fundamentals. They don’t even know how to stand on defense, which way to face. The talent problem is minor compared to the embarrassing disgrace of the “coaching.”

[RC_Drunkford]

Yes, I started noticing that trend like 2 or 3 years ago. Can't remember if it was like 2 or 3 years ago where we gave up the highest scoring total to several players. I remember Tatum, Morant, Doncic, and KAT all 50 pieced us seemingly the same year.

Feel like Anthony Edward's also went off. Jalen Brown, CJ McCollum, Julius Randle, Embiid, Jokic.

Many guys had their "hot shooting nights" vs the Spurs over the past few years.

that's exactly how long Messina and Udoka been gone

[rascal]

It's the talent level. So this is on the front office.

How do you assemble a team with no starting quality pg and no interior post players who can defend at an NBA level. A team that lacks overall athleticism and shooting.

[TheChillFactor]

Aside from Wemby and Vassell, the roster is a collection of some nice spare parts. Hurts me to say that because I love all of them.

Keldon needs to be a 6th man. You aren't going to have a good defense in this league starting him at SF. There are just too many good wings across the league that will take advantage of a 6'5" forward.

Lower your expectations, this team is not going to win games or show a cohesive unit on either side of the ball.

[jjspur]

We basically have the same 20 something win team from last year plus Wemby. He alone might give us another 5 wins but that's it. The other players have to step up and so far I just haven't seen it. Maybe they've hit their limits. Maybe its time to spend some of our assets. Maybe its time for a change in coaching philosophy. These aren't just losses, they are really bad losses.

Something's not right and it looks like some kind of change in something is needed or we may end up as bad as last year or worse, even with Wemby. If that isn't a slap in the face for some needed change, I don't know what is. The coaches and front office need to reevaluate this team or some finger pointing will start real soon.

[cd98]

Literally every team our guys play has a “hot shooting night.” I’m beginning to think I could run out there on a given night and hit 5/7 from downtown…

Yes, one hot shooting night and you can say well there are nights where one team has a hot shooting night and it causes the other team to put up a stinker, but when it happens every game, it's horrid defense. TBH, this is the worst Spurs defense I've ever seen and honestly, it may be the worst defense I've seen in the NBA. There are individuals that have their moments (Vassell, Sochan, Wemby), but the collective is pathetically bad.

[buttsR4rebounding]

The majority of the blame has to go on Pop. The lack of coherent defensive scheme is apparent. The bullshit about watching Wemby and letting him figure stuff out is simply a cop out for Pop's own lack of coherent strategy. The game has passed him by. He's happy to spout his tired rhetoric and have media schleps lap it up and collect more than $1,000,000 a month salary until someone with authority recognizes the con.

[sananspursfan21]

Yes, one hot shooting night and you can say well there are nights where one team has a hot shooting night and it causes the other team to put up a stinker, but when it happens every game, it's horrid defense. TBH, this is the worst Spurs defense I've ever seen and honestly, it may be the worst defense I've seen in the NBA. There are individuals that have their moments (Vassell, Sochan, Wemby), but the collective is pathetically bad.

I agree. I think individually, we have some potentially great defenders. But it’s the lack of discipline that leads every team the Spurs play to look like 2016 Warriors. Even teams that are in the bottom of the league in 3PT shooting are lighting our guys up.

[NASpurs]

Am I missing something that the worst defensive rated teams have been in the past five years?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/worst-team-defensive-rating-in-season-nba-history

[buttsR4rebounding]

Am I missing something that the worst defensive rated teams have been in the past five years?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/worst-team-defensive-rating-in-season-nba-history

The rule changes encouraging offense plus teams learning to exploit those changes more effectively contribute to higher scoring across the board. A huge reason why you can't compare players from different eras without a bunch of caveats.

[TD 21]

Am I missing something that the worst defensive rated teams have been in the past five years?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/worst-team-defensive-rating-in-season-nba-history

By raw numbers, but the true way to determine this is by relative to league average in the given season, so that it's in context style of play (namely pace) / rules wise.

For example, the '04 Spurs remain the GOAT single season defense of the modern (post merger) era, at 8.8 points per 100 possessions below league average during that season.

[Leetonidas]

It's coaching. Watching guys continually over help and leave dudes wide open at the three point line is something that should be corrected by the coaching staff. And yet it happens constantly. And it really makes no sense, I've seen our guys overhelp when someone is driving with Victor in front of them like he needs the help and they leave their man wide open. Keldon and Sochan do it multiple times a game

[tim_duncan_fan]

I really mean it. If Kawhi, George, and Harden all play on Monday, there's a 50% chance the Clippers see 150 points.

Yes, they have sucked, but we have problems defending 1 three-level scorer. They have 3. Yes, those 3 are all mostly washed.

But I got a bad feeling. They played the Nuggets to a standstill.



It's coaching. Watching guys continually over help and leave dudes wide open at the three point line is something that should be corrected by the coaching staff. And yet it happens constantly. And it really makes no sense, I've seen our guys overhelp when someone is driving with Victor in front of them like he needs the help and they leave their man wide open. Keldon and Sochan do it multiple times a game

Not just dudes, but the main motherfuckers on the team AND their main 3-point shooter, if those happen to be different people. It's fucking insane.

[Kawhi Duncan]

The scary part is... Pop based on his postgame interview sound like he doesn't know how to fix it..
That tells me he is actually trying, and not doing some deep level coaching that no one else gets... This is him actually trying to win games... So if you don't think purposefully playing a PF at PG and having zero... None... No offensive scheme or structure around the most hyped prospect since LeBron is a coaching issue, I don't know what to tell you

[KobesAchilles]

So I had said earlier that I was worried about our team bc we don’t have any good assistant coaches. Yes Pop is the head coach and will get a lion share of the blame. BUT having good assistant coaches helps so much in teaching the fundamentals. The Spurs used to have a top notch assistant coach unit. Now it is near the bottom. Assistant coaches help pass on the message that the head coach is promoting, they point out mistakes that players are making and help them behind the scenes to fix them and improve them. They are unsung heros. But most people who post here think they don’t really matter

[Knoxxx]

I definitely noticed the very stupid over helping and leaving shooters wide open. I think we are especially weak at the three position defensively. Wemby is often slow to react and not providing enough rim protection. We seem to be one of the worst teams in the league at judging rebounds off the rim also.

Overall a chit show. I had hoped for Champagnie to show more in getting a start but to no avail. My nickname for Doug is McDoormat, he was horrid. Osman is slow and gives up more 3s than he makes. Sohan may be better at the 3, he gets easily flustered and off his game. Decision making team wide is obnoxiously poor. Tre Jones returning could help some there, but this is a very young and green team with subpar veterans such that they exist and it shows.

[rascal]

Vassell had his back to a play and was not positioned between the basket and his man where his man just cut right to the basket for an easy layup and he's with his arms out stretched guarding no one with his man behind him going to the basket.

Collins is constantly leaving the lane open for easy dunks and layups. Is he really playing center?

Sochan looks lost at times on defense. Players are constantly blowing right past him for layups and he doesn't have enough vertical lift to alter the shot and overcome being too slow.

There was a play and it wasn't on a break where he wasn't on the TV screen, 5 OK players against 4 on defense with Sochan not even in the picture.

[ace3g]

We are helping too much on drives, leaving 3 point shooters open for the kick-out.

[paperboy77]

The rule changes encouraging offense plus teams learning to exploit those changes more effectively contribute to higher scoring across the board. A huge reason why you can't compare players from different eras without a bunch of caveats.

Yes there's been changes like you say but that's bs that there cant be good to great defenders today. Or even teams. Just look at Derrik White (who we gave away to easily), he influences the shit outta games with defense and savviness. Hate to say it but DBrooks has his ways. DGreen is king of punking out offensive players. There's a lot of guys like that, we just never looked for them probably due to our incompetency in the front office. Also, are you telling me that great historical defenders would be helpless today? That's a bunch of bs. I think what's missing is a hard ass administrator, aka Carlile type coach, that doesn't care about hurting feelings and truly all about what works for the team.

[RC_Drunkford]

So I had said earlier that I was worried about our team bc we don’t have any good assistant coaches. Yes Pop is the head coach and will get a lion share of the blame. BUT having good assistant coaches helps so much in teaching the fundamentals. The Spurs used to have a top notch assistant coach unit. Now it is near the bottom. Assistant coaches help pass on the message that the head coach is promoting, they point out mistakes that players are making and help them behind the scenes to fix them and improve them. They are unsung heros. But most people who post here think they don’t really matter

I've been on record saying that the coaching went down the drain once Messina and Udoka left tbh, but sniffers think Pop is a genius



Vassell had his back to a play and was not positioned between the basket and his man where his man just cut right to the basket for an easy layup and he's with his arms out stretched guarding no one with his man behind him going to the basket.

Collins is constantly leaving the lane open for easy dunks and layups. Is he really playing center?

Sochan looks lost at times on defense. Players are constantly blowing right past him for layups and he doesn't have enough vertical lift to alter the shot and overcome being too slow.

There was a play and it wasn't on a break where he wasn't on the TV screen, 5 OK players against 4 on defense with Sochan not even in the picture.

all of this are coaching issues. You have to see where the ball is at all times. If Pop can't teach his players that, then what is he teaching them? We are not funnelling players into help, we are picking up the ballhandler on fast breaks before mid court. Collins plays drop coverage. There's everything wrong with the way they are playing on defense.

You could trade anybody on this roster to a team that plays defense with the right schemes and they would immediately look way better on that end

[couchman]

We have at least four guys who were either good defensive draft prospects or have shown good D while in the league.
Wemby, Sochan, Devin, and Tre are all solid/good defenders or have the potential to be.
Start them with either Collins or Keldon and there is no excuse for that unit to not be at least League average on defense with some proper coaching and time to gel.
At some point the problem is coaching and I’m getting to that point

[rascal]

If it's the coach then why would Pop not care about dfense when he stressed defense and was a great defensive coach in the past?

That doesn't makle sense how he doesn't care anymore unless he's tanking again for another high draft pick.


The players aren't as good as people think they are or both the coach not stressing wins and the players not good enough.

[Seventyniner]

Pop was slow to adjust to the new offensive philosophy in the league, and thus it's no surprise he has also been slow to adjust on defense too. You can't play defense the same way now as you could get away with even 8 years ago.

[couchman]

Pop was slow to adjust to the new offensive philosophy in the league, and thus it's no surprise he has also been slow to adjust on defense too. You can't play defense the same way now as you could get away with even 8 years ago.

What is wild is that The Beautiful Game helped usher in this new era of offense. As an offensive coach Pop has been part of the evolution. But it seems to me that Pop has been slow to make the defensive adjustments to go with that evolution.

[JeffDuncan]

If it's the coach then why would Pop not care about dfense when he stressed defense and was a great defensive coach in the past?
…


Caring about defense is not at all the same as having the ability to teach defense at a practical, nuts and bolts level. Actual coaching is instructional. Pep talks don’t teach any player anything about how to play the game. If all it took was to shout, go team go, then the Coyote ought to be the head coach.

But most of the basic instruction has to be on the assistant coaches. They don’t appear to be very good at their jobs.

[ambchang]

The stuff missing is basic that a high school coach will notice. Not collapsing the paint, stick to the shooters, simple switches, box out for rebounds. That’s not even pro level stuff. It’s impossible for any coach at any level, let alone a legendary nba coach not to notice these things and correct it.

I have to say it’s beyond frustrating to watch.

[sammy]

It sucks, like historically bad, for multiple seasons. With a coach known for mandating defensive effort.

Who is to blame? Is coaching or player ability the biggest culprit? Why? Why have we been bad for so long?

When will it stop being a historical abomination?

As of this thread creation on November 14th, 2023 Spurs sit with the most porous defense at 124.1 PPG. Second worst is Washington at 122.5. Our PPG differential also remains the worst in the league.

To really underscore how bad it is, we have a 19 year old rookie that had a 107.9 defensive rating before today's game and is already being talked about as a potential DPOY. So that means those numbers mentioned above are catastrophically horrendous when Wemby isn't on the court.

So we suck. Discuss.

The only one who plays defense is Wemby and the rest of the players just plain suck! Sick of watching Collins not moving fast enough/leaving his man open for uncontested 3 pointer and then can't rebound for his life or if he gets the ball his defenders pulls it out of his weak arms! Then everyone else standing around and not staying with their man just letting them have a slam dunk with no one guarding the paint!

I've never seen a bunch of underachievers and I've been a fan of Spurs forever! Wemby, Vassell, Tre and Johnson are the only good ones on this team! Bassey plays well as center when weak Collins subs out and at least plays some defense! Sochan has disappointed me as he refuses to dish the ball to Wemby when he's open and gives it to Collins for the brick! WTF!

[DAF86]

Our D is flacid.

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The stuff missing is basic that a high school coach will notice. Not collapsing the paint, stick to the shooters, simple switches, box out for rebounds. That’s not even pro level stuff. It’s impossible for any coach at any level, let alone a legendary nba coach not to notice these things and correct it.

I have to say it’s beyond frustrating to watch.

Losing one's man on a shot happens far too often for an NBA team, I don't care how young we are.

[Tyronn Lue]

Spurs are playing G league level guys with a potential 2nd tier star and Wemby. Results as expected.

[Chinook]

One of the things hurting the Spurs is that they keep drafting a bunch of 19-year-olds instead of upperclassmen. It's very hard to tell who's a defensive ace their first couple of years. Guys like Green, White and Hill were seniors. Kawhi was a sophomore but at least had a lot of high-profile games guarding college stars. Obviously there are 19-year-old NBA players to end up being good defenders. But when you draft nothing but raw players, you get this. Even Wemby is extremely raw defensively, and his actual skills don't match the fear factor his profile engenders. His effort level is also really dependent on how many minutes he's played and his temperament. Going forward, the team needs to be using some of their draft picks to select for floor rather than ceiling. Hopefully this is the last year they build their rotation based on development rather than performance. They badly need to start building a meritocratic culture rather than one built by pre-draft scouting reports.