Grades: Spurs @ Thunder - Nov. 14, 2023

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-thunder-grades-11/

[MultiTroll]

This alone makes it an easy F for Popped.
Devonte’ Graham

Graham only scored four points and didn’t do much notable on the defensive end. However, when he was on the court, it was like night and day in terms of point guard play. Having an experienced point guard like Graham running the show actually allowed the Spurs to run their sets properly.

And yet there was soo much more:

Doug McDermott

McDermott is supposed to be a steadying influence but he might have actually been San Antonio’s most spastic player on this night. He turned it over four times in 18 minutes and it was impossible for him to string two positive offensive possessions in a row. McDermott was also a clear liability on defense.

Exactly why is Pops Pet getting this many minutes, yet along being on the roster as one of the highest paid Spurs?

[rjv]

i'm ready to move on from champagnie and doug at the end of this season. mcdermott looked like some random fan the spurs just grabbed out of the crowd. when he's not hitting his threes, he's an absolute train wreck.

[$pursDynasty]

Next time some on this board go on the just cut Keldon rants I will refer them back to his game. This young team needs what he gives them a scorer. This game was the most unwatchable of the season.

[TrainOfThought5]

I honestly thought the game was so bad that TiMVP couldn’t muster himself to enough to watch the whole thing and skipped the grades

[rjv]

I honestly thought the game was so bad that TiMVP couldn’t muster himself to enough to watch the whole thing and skipped the grades

not to mention that he was denied half of the 4th quarter because TNT hit the eject button at that point.

[024]

At 10+ games into the season, I just don't see the potential in Sochan at point guard. He just does not exhibit enough natural playmaking instincts or even ball handling skills to become effective at the role. In fact, it seems to be detrimental to his development as you can see his frustrations grow. Might be time to end this experiment and let Sochan slide back into a SF/PF playmaking role instead of being the full time point guard.

[MultiTroll]

I honestly thought the game was so bad that TiMVP couldn’t muster himself to enough to watch the whole thing and skipped the grades
he gets Kudos for watching the whole game for sure. :lol

[MultiTroll]

At 10+ games into the season, I just don't see the potential in Sochan at point guard. He just does not exhibit enough natural playmaking instincts or even ball handling skills to become effective at the role. In fact, it seems to be detrimental to his development as you can see his frustrations grow. Might be time to end this experiment and let Sochan slide back into a SF/PF playmaking role instead of being the full time point guard.
You sir are in danger of being expelled from the next Pop Sniffers gathering.

[LeBowen]

At 10+ games into the season, I just don't see the potential in Sochan at point guard. He just does not exhibit enough natural playmaking instincts or even ball handling skills to become effective at the role. In fact, it seems to be detrimental to his development as you can see his frustrations grow. Might be time to end this experiment and let Sochan slide back into a SF/PF playmaking role instead of being the full time point guard.

Spot on.
Role changes usually happen when a player has at least some elements for the new position.
Jeremy has none.

Demar had a lot of point guard elements before he joined the Spurs. That's why the system with him as a primary playmaker somewhat worked.

Jeremy has no point guard qualities.
Handles, passing vision, actual passing because most of his passes are out of control and erratic. He's not a pnr threat and he can exploit a mismatch only with big size advantage. But all of that takes away so much from the team that it's not even worth attempting to change his role.
Especially because I still think he can be an elite role player as a utility forward for all kind of lineups.

[The Truth #6]

Sochan will now get pressured more and I see the frustration rising. I thought he might get in a fight last game. One of my favorite players. Ugh.

[Dex]

I think it is worth noting that Jeremy Sochan has the SECOND WORST Plus-Minus (+/-) in the NBA through 11 games at -143.

Sochan briefly had the worst but somehow Tre's brother Tyus has taken those honors in the dumpster fire that is the Washington Wizards (3 of the 4 worst players in +/- all play for Washington)

Adding to that, his assist-to-turnover ratio is 1.8/1....which is okay as a big, but awful for a starting point guard.

For reference, Tre Jones' ratio is 4.3/1 in similar minutes.

The Sochan PG experiment is failing, and it's dragging down the morale of the team with it.

[Bruno]

Pop can do whatever genious in game adjustment or play calling, he deserves an F in every single game as long as Sochan is the starting PG.

Spurs don't need some trades or vets signing for the moment. They just need to start Tre as PG and have Graham as backup PG. I don't see how more obvious it can be.

[Jordan Jackson]

Pop can do whatever genious in game adjustment or play calling, he deserves an F in every single game as long as Sochan is the starting PG.

Spurs don't need some trades or vets signing for the moment. They just need to start Tre as PG and have Graham as backup PG. I don't see how more obvious it can be.

Unfortunately, probably have 70 more games of this shit. Pound the Rock baby!!!

[NASpurs]

Unfortunately, probably have 70 more games of this shit. Pound the Rock baby!!!

:lol for real

This Sochan shit will continue until he's either injured or the season is about to end.

[Ice009]

I've wanted to see Devonte get some court time all season. Why haven't the Spurs given him much of an opportunity? I would have settled for seeing him in preseason play, so I have no idea why he hasn't played much at all with Tre being out.

Man, this is getting very frustrating. They're already losing a lot of games and losing most of those games by a lot of points. How long are they going to try fitting a square peg into a round hole? This is insanely incompetent.

Edit : Hopefully they haven't ruined Jeremy and the team chemistry playing him at PG. I wonder how he's feeling mentally. I don't get why they're forcing it.

Edit 2 : Are the Spurs doing this on purpose to tank for a high pick (Man, Jeremy would probably be pissed if he read this message. I am not trying to bag on the guy as I really liked him last season in his more natural position)? If so, how would Victor feel about this.

[Dex]

I've wanted to see Devonte get some court time all season. Why haven't the Spurs given him much of an opportunity? I would have settled for seeing him in preseason play, so I have no idea why he hasn't played much at all with Tre being out.

Man, this is getting very frustrating. They're already losing a lot of games and losing most of those games by a lot of points. How long are they going to try fitting a square peg into a round hole? This is insanely incompetent.

100% agree.

At this point, I don't care if we lose 60 games again this season, but I'd at least like to see a team that actually looks like they belong in the NBA.

You can argue about talent all you want, but we basically had a less talented team last season and they were at least able to compete in losses.

Considering we added a #1 pick, getting blown out by 40 multiple times falls squarely on the coaches and rotations. There are adjustments that could be made to help, and players WILL start to get pissed off if this continues.

[couchman]

Keldon is the only player have right now who truly threatens the defense when driving to the rim.
But he’s not a good enough ball handler to be our primary playmaker.

We desperately need a primary playmaker to set the table.
I know we need to draft BPA, but that has better not be another off ball player.

I was willing to go along w the Sochan PG experiment but he does not finish well enough to start the offense.
Lost in all this is the fact that Sochan is shooting the 3 exceptionally well this year but mostly as a spot up, not off the dribble. That would be super useful if he started as the PF or SF.

[The Truth #6]

In preseason I floated the idea that Pop was ok with not winning this year while prioritizing development. Others suggested we were going to win 40 games and make the playoffs. Just to talk about me for a moment, this is now worse than I thought. The morale boost of Wemby has been destroyed.

It feels like PG minutes are inverse to talent. I think Devote is probably our best point guard and he can't sniff the floor. His shooting makes him better than Tre in my opinion.

I'm not throwing Jeremy under the bus, still a favorite player, and I want to see him developed, and growing pains are expected, but Pop isn't developing him. It's bad. I think they have to mix his time as a forward also, more than currently.

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades. Well I quit on the team before TNT. Wonder what they said about the Spurs. Probably about what we say here, where's the point guard?

[Ice009]

Thanks for the grades. Well I quit on the team before TNT. Wonder what they said about the Spurs. Probably about what we say here, where's the point guard?

Did this really happen? Did they just changeover to another game? If so, at what point of the game did they do it? Also, does anyone know how the national media schedule works in regard to a team being bad? If a team is as bad as the Spurs are looking, can they drop the Spurs games and switch to different matchups rather than continue showing Spurs games? That would suck for the fans in France. I wonder if fans there are still staying up late to watch the games? This season has gone from very promising to demoralizing in such a short time.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The team and the coaching staff’s willingness to mail this one in was really disappointing. I also think Tre’s absence has made it painfully clear that Jeremy is playing way out of position. I don’t think he’s embracing this role, either. Time for the team to seek out other PG alternatives…past time. That position is historically the quarterback of the team, and the Spurs don’t have one. No wonder they can’t compete on a nightly basis.

[wildbill2u]

The Sochan at PG experiment is obviously an attempt to keep Sochan and Keldon on the court at the same time. Adding a second turd into a punchbowl doesn't improve the mix.

[emanueldavidginobili]

The team needs to work on passing as a whole, ridiculous how many inbound passes they mess up or how often there are deflections while making routine passes. The team also needs athletes that can penetrate the lanes. Love Pop but everyone loses their touch, thats just how it goes, this team needs a new fresh face in charge. Meanwhile Ime has the fucking Rockets on a 6 game winning streak with their most recent win against the 8-2 Nuggets.

[Chinook]

The Sochan at PG experiment is obviously an attempt to keep Sochan and Keldon on the court at the same time. Adding a second turd into a punchbowl doesn't improve the mix.

As I said, Pop think Sochan, Johnson and Collins are non-negotiable starters and will change any other position to preserve that.

[Dex]

The Sochan at PG experiment is obviously an attempt to keep Sochan and Keldon on the court at the same time. Adding a second turd into a punchbowl doesn't improve the mix.

Move Keldon's ass to the bench and try to sell it like he is the new Manu.

If he doesn't like it...send him packing, dude isn't that good anyways

[Chinook]

Move Keldon's ass to the bench and try to sell it like he is the new Manu.

If he doesn't like it...send him packing, dude isn't that good anyways

It's pretty obvious Sochan should be on the bench. Keldon fits well with the starters. Sochan does not. Jeremy should have never been the starter. Last year included though that's whatever. This year there wasn't a good argument for Sochan and Collins starting with Wemby. Pop thought differently, as we can all see now.

[Sugus]

Move Keldon's ass to the bench and try to sell it like he is the new Manu.

If he doesn't like it...send him packing, dude isn't that good anyways

I've been hoping for bench-Keldon for a long time now. His energy and wrecking-ball style of play is just suited for that Manu role to a T.

I was certain, when Pop made those comments before the season about "Manu came off the bench so I don't wanna hear it", that it was Keldon he was talking about -- but now I'm not certain at all. None of the "non-bench players" are coming off the bench at all, except for like, Tre? Who isn't a starter to begin with.

Puzzling to say the least.

[Sugus]

It's pretty obvious Sochan should be on the bench. Keldon fits well with the starters. Sochan does not.

Keldon's defense will always cap his ceiling as non-starter, though. I know what you think about Sochan's play this season, and if you say they're both bench players I can't really disagree at this point - but if I'd have to put in effort into making one of those guys a starter, Sochan would be my pick as well.

He's not playing pretty right now, but has the higher ceiling in my opinion on both ends of the court. People are crazy quick judging a player playing out of position on a bottom league team. For Keldon though there's years of proof of where he really belongs on a good team.

[Dex]

It's pretty obvious Sochan should be on the bench. Keldon fits well with the starters. Sochan does not. Jeremy should have never been the starter. Last year included though that's whatever. This year there wasn't a good argument for Sochan and Collins starting with Wemby. Pop thought differently, as we can all see now.

The only defense I have for Sochan starting is that before Wemby, he was the highest draft pick the Spurs have had since Duncan...so Pop and crew obviously want to lean into developing him and proving they made the right pick. He is a 2nd year 9th pick and deserves his chance to prove himself.

But as you and I have discussed in other threads...I don't feel like this is the right way to do it. Making him a PG just so they can fit Johnson, Collins, and Wemby on the court just isn't working and the proof is in the pudding.

[Chinook]

Keldon's defense will always cap his ceiling as non-starter, though. I know what you think about Sochan's play this season, and if you say they're both bench players I can't really disagree at this point - but if I'd have to put in effort into making one of those guys a starter, Sochan would be my pick as well.

He's not playing pretty right now, but has the higher ceiling in my opinion on both ends of the court. People are crazy quick judging a player playing out of position on a bottom league team. For Keldon though there's years of proof of where he really belongs on a good team.

Keldon should be replaced... with someone like OG. Not Sochan Sochan is not an upgrade at SF. He's just as out of position there as Keldon is. The Spurs aren't winning a title with Johnson starting, but they would be a better team now leveraging the things he does well and absorbing his faults. He's their most versatile scorer and off-dribble play-maker. The starting lineup needs that more than the more traditional bench does.

[Chinook]

The only defense I have for Sochan starting is that before Wemby, he was the highest draft pick the Spurs have had since Duncan...so Pop and crew obviously want to lean into developing him and proving they made the right pick. He is a 2nd year 9th round pick and deserves his chance to prove himself.

But as you and I have discussed in other threads...I don't feel like this is the right way to do it. Making him a PG just so they can fit Johnson, Collins, and Wemby on the court just isn't working and the proof is in the pudding.

Sochan's not a small-forward either. The dude can come off the bench just fine. Pop trying to plug him in somewhere doesn't make sense. Just put him in a position he finds comfortable and let him develop as intended rather than trying to force growth.

[Sugus]

Keldon should be replaced... with someone like OG. Not Sochan Sochan is not an upgrade at SF. He's just as out of position there as Keldon is. The Spurs aren't winning a title with Johnson starting, but they would be a better team now leveraging the things he does well and absorbing his faults. He's their most versatile scorer and off-dribble play-maker. The starting lineup needs that more than the more traditional bench does.

Oof, Keldon for OG? You're preaching to the choir at this point :P

Agree on all counts, and it's why I take the "hard stance" on Keldon starting despite him being maybe my favorite player on the team now. Sochan will be great in two years as a PF that can take point-forward duties as requested, but he's definitely not a SF, not a SG, and not a PG of course :lol

I really think the discussion paradigm right now is so fucked because people want the team to be good, yet every action and indication from the FO has actively hampered the team's success. I don't know if I like such an early and blatant tank -- but I also can't deny the Spurs would do marvelously with a top-5 pick paired with Wemby and a big roster change to build on those two. A Shai to his Chet, if you will.

[RC_Drunkford]

I guess this team has to lose by 60 for somebody to get an F. I love what Malaki is saying in this video: "Just keep pounding the rock. We're doing a good job, we do everything right." :lol

If that's what Pop has told them send him off to a retirement home


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-MsLW6uTI

[sananspursfan21]

I honestly don’t mind the losing, but I don’t feel like the young guys are “learning” anything when they’re consistently getting curb stomped by mid level talent teams…

[TD 21]

I don't get the Sochan discourse. Him being their highest draft pick in 25 years was a function of their being a dynasty with unparalleled longevity and a refusal to rebuild (or an attempt to time it) for a while after it was over.

There's been far higher pedigree or flat out better prospects, on plenty of mediocre or re-building teams, who have come off the bench over the years and some of them played spot minutes or were on the deep bench.

Thinking he's above a mid 20s mpg role off the bench is absurd.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pop should get an F until he makes Sochan the sixth man and introduces some semblance of structure at either end of the court. Quit sucking up LJ.

[RC_Drunkford]

This team is so bad it makes you miss the KBD‘s and Romeo Langford‘s

[jeebus]

The only thing the TOSB did that was good was let Graham run the offense. He won't sniff the court again unfortunately because The Senile Dickless Fuck will never change.

[RC_Drunkford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3mSNY5SBeE

[timtonymanu]

Pop can’t hide behind Timmy and his 5 rings anymore. People are catching on to his horrible coaching job. Get your head out of your ass or step down already

[playbonner15]

I've wanted to see Devonte get some court time all season. Why haven't the Spurs given him much of an opportunity? I would have settled for seeing him in preseason play, so I have no idea why he hasn't played much at all with Tre being out.

Man, this is getting very frustrating. They're already losing a lot of games and losing most of those games by a lot of points. How long are they going to try fitting a square peg into a round hole? This is insanely incompetent.

Edit : Hopefully they haven't ruined Jeremy and the team chemistry playing him at PG. I wonder how he's feeling mentally. I don't get why they're forcing it.

Edit 2 : Are the Spurs doing this on purpose to tank for a high pick (Man, Jeremy would probably be pissed if he read this message. I am not trying to bag on the guy as I really liked him last season in his more natural position)? If so, how would Victor feel about this.

Team has Tre, Graham, Wesley, Sir Jabari and Pop starts wants a PF to handle the ball :lol . But I think the talent of the team as a whole does not meet expectations. Fans see Wemby highlights, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon highlights but they dont see the lowlights - turnovers, missed defensive assignment and other team shooting lights out while Spurs shoot bricks, mainly because theres not much playmaking to get open looks

[playbonner15]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3mSNY5SBeE
This is what's frustrating in these blowouts. I know Spurs are a young team but there's a lot of defensive mistakes and better coached teams capitalize on our young guys' mistakes

[Joseph Kony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3mSNY5SBeE
spurs need to hire this guy for film sessions. wtf are the Spurs even doing in practice?

[RC_Drunkford]

Team has Tre, Graham, Wesley, Sir Jabari and Pop starts wants a PF to handle the ball :lol . But I think the talent of the team as a whole does not meet expectations. Fans see Wemby highlights, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon highlights but they dont see the lowlights - turnovers, missed defensive assignment and other team shooting lights out while Spurs shoot bricks, mainly because theres not much playmaking to get open looks

it's not so much the talent, but the coaching and stupid line ups. This team was better last year than it is this year, so you can't say we have a bunch of bad players. They just don't play physical enough or smart and lack point guard play and basic defensive principles. And we've seen them stomp teams in some quarters, but they don't keep that intensity up for 48 minutes. 99% of that is a coaching issue.

[SAGirl]

I guess this team has to lose by 60 for somebody to get an F. I love what Malaki is saying in this video: "Just keep pounding the rock. We're doing a good job, we do everything right." :lol

If that's what Pop has told them send him off to a retirement home


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-MsLW6uTI
I like his mental resilience. Don’t get too down because this is just the beginning of the season… to be fair that loss wasn’t on him individually. He’s got to be resilient to come out of that without some PTSD lol I kind of like him more now than I did simply because I think the team needs some mental toughness as well.

[NASpurs]

Is timvp part of the spineless SA media too afraid to call out Pop and his crap?

:cry but our press credentials :cry

[SAGirl]

This team is so bad it makes you miss the KBD‘s and Romeo Langford‘s
Not to me… to be fair it got really really bad, but I am still hopeful for a Wemby led Spurs. What we are seeing isn’t it but I am still hopeful for Wemby taking off.

it’s a far question if this tank is on purpose like Sugus is stating. It’s one thing to not be quite good enough but being put in positions to take your best chances and another to be sabotaged from within. I can’t believe the Spurs would tank on purpose with Wemby in tow. It’s not fair and it’s precisely the kind of thing that posters in this forum used to criticize about teaching a losing mentality to young players .. yada yada.. that whole chestnut. I can’t think it’s on purpose.

[Seventyniner]

Not to me… to be fair it got really really bad, but I am still hopeful for a Wemby led Spurs. What we are seeing isn’t it but I am still hopeful for Wemby taking off.

it’s a far question if this tank is on purpose like Sugus is stating. It’s one thing to not be quite good enough but being put in positions to take your best chances and another to be sabotaged from within. I can’t believe the Spurs would tank on purpose with Wemby in tow. It’s not fair and it’s precisely the kind of thing that posters in this forum used to criticize about teaching a losing mentality to young players .. yada yada.. that whole chestnut. I can’t think it’s on purpose.

Perhaps I'm one of the sniffers, but I do tend to give PATFO the benefit of the doubt. This is getting harder and harder to do as the Spurs keep getting embarrassed.

I can see "let Wemby learn on his own and don't put him in a box" as code for a stealth tank, but I don't think the players will be as willing to play along as they were last year.

[tbdog]

I actually think Sochan is defending guards far better than he is defending big sf's and pfs. I'm suprised how well get sticks to his guards getting around screens. But when he switches onto a big, it a disaster.

[RC_Drunkford]

People been saying we’re running a stealth tank ever since Pop started Bryn Forbes. Cut it out, it‘s Pop being Pop. He‘s just so out of tune that it looks like a tank