Grades: Spurs vs. Grizzlies - Nov. 18, 2023

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-grizzlies-13/

Welp, damn.

[Robz4000]

Way too many passing grades imo. Pop clearly deserved an F but a D is sufficient I guess.

[RC_Drunkford]

timvp I appreciate you doing these grades, but come on bro. You're like Oprah handing out B's and C's when you should hand out a bunch of F's. It don't get worse than that

[tbdog]

timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) I appreciate you doing these grades, but come on bro. You're like Oprah handing out B's and C's when you should hand out a bunch of F's. It don't get worse than that

It's relative to their skill.

[r0drig0lac]

despite everything, it was the first game in which Victor seemed to not want to rush his movements every time he got the ball.

[spursparker9]

despite everything, it was the first game in which Victor seemed to not want to rush his movements every time he got the ball.

Yea, he seems to be more patient and look to pass instead of jacking up hero ball 3s.

[sananspursfan21]

It's relative to their skill.

This. If this is 2014, it’s Fs all around. But as bad as they are, you can only fault them so much.

[sananspursfan21]

At this point, I only care about Wemby. When I can’t watch, I hit the stat board and my eye goes straight to him to see how much he’s scored, blocked, etc.

[Davidicus]

Yes happy to see Wemby not get discouraged and go straight at the 3s, with success. More importantly could see he learned to take his time, maybe listened to Doc (probably spurs staff) that bc he is so tall he can take all the time he wants in his shooting form.

His stats don’t matter to me. Even the 8 blocks were the quietest 8 blocks ever, just felt natural to him vs any other guy would have to summon the spirit of Mutombo.

What’s really impressed me is that every game you can see he’s fixed something from the game prior. This game he slowed down his shot, and was more aggressive on help blocks. Nitpicking there’s room to be even more aggressive on help D. .

Rest of the team is making improvement, but agreed on other “we just suck” thread, we’re not going to make major headway until we find another star player in the draft + bring on some solid FAs. This year we go as fast as Wemby and Vassell (when he sees the floor) can learn.

[baseline bum]

Talk about grade inflation. B's for losing by double digits to a 2-9 team missing half its rotation and at home.

[Raven]

I think there is a lot of good on the team, but they have huge flaws both in consistency and setting plays.

[Mugen]

I like the part about the old man, OP. Slowly but surely, you're seeing the light :lol

[Dex]

It really is amazing that this team is somehow performing worse than last year's tank squad.

Yes, I know we moved several key pieces midseason and the results followed...but we are currently on pace to lose more games than our third-worst finish from last year despite adding a "generational" number one pick...(not suggesting Victor is any less, but we are seeing his youth and inexperience in action now)

Not going to beat the dead horse of trying to reason why, but still just sad to see. I'm fine with losing games, but I'd at least like to see the team compete and develop and they seem to be trending in the wrong direction right now. And that is with Wemby playing every single game so far which was a question mark coming into the season.

[TheGreatYacht]

Good ol Poop :lol he’ll call a timeout 30 seconds into the game because of an easy basket, but won’t call one for an embarrassing meltdown like the one we had in the 4th

[DAF86]

Good ol Poop :lol he’ll call a timeout 30 seconds into the game because of an easy basket, but won’t call one for an embarrassing meltdown like the one we had in the 4th

For real. Such a dumb, "I need to do things differently", "can't get over myself" move.

At this point the old man doesn't even think about those timeouts. He just automatically calls them in a sudden mixed rush of anger and dementia.

[RC_Drunkford]

by the way Pop also didn't use the coaches challenge. There were plenty opportunities

[Chomag]

Bad habits are being learned with lack of coaching. The next head coach is going to have their work cut out for them to break all these bad habits.

[Pauleta14]

Timvp taking care of his mental health with those generous grades :lol

[couchman]

Pop is losing me man.
The only way to learn how to win is to do everything you can to win.
Pop coached like someone who is tanking.
Or maybe he’s forgotten how to win.
I want to see some nasty

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades! Yes this stuff is hard to watch, I wonder what our record would be if the game was 3 quarters.

Next up a team with 4 All-Stars...we got this.

[Drom John]

Generally thumbs up on grades, but a thumbs down on your reason for Pop's grade (not arguing the grade).
Second day of the back to back, Wembanyama got his minutes, but in shorter spurts by way of more times taken out.
The two players that extended the bench for real game play were Bassey +1 and Barlow +6.
Seems to me that Pop got that part right.

[TekXX]

With these grades if we ever when a game i guess it's A+ all around. I would go back to what grades actually mean, A=excellent, B=above average, C=average, D=below average, F=Fail. Hell this is texas we don't even do D's

[TD 21]

Thanks for the grades! Yes this stuff is hard to watch, I wonder what our record would be if the game was 3 quarters.

Next up a team with 4 All-Stars...we got this.

Westbrook hasn't been All-Star caliber in about 3 years.

[heyheymymy]

Before this season started, if someone asked you how long you were willing to give Coach Pop and the players to assimilate, what would your answer be?

Sure as fuck none of you would answer 10 games or less yet here we are.

My answer was 2-3 seasons, you know, like EVERYONE predicted back in July, August, September. Don't be a douche and don't be a coward.

[heyheymymy]

Wemby is more like getting rookie DRob not getting rookie Duncan.

Duncan had 4 years of experience and development before his rookie NBA season. That would be at the earliest 2028 Wemby for comparison. However the current calendar says 2023-2024 just fyi.

Rookie Duncan had 4 more years of prior basketball development than Wembanyama, but rookie Duncan also dropped into a more developed surrounding team too imho.

Veteran DRob but still elite, serious help like Elliott. I am not sure Wemby has the comparable surrounding talent either.

Even still took 2 seasons for rookie Duncan to win a ring, at massively more optimal circumstances. You gave Wemby 10 games before giving up. Everyone said this would be a tinker season.

Are current Spurs fans being realistic about Wemby era or are they being childish and uninformed?

It's okay, Wemby is a sensation and brought in a lot of fans new to basketball. Wemby effect.

[Kawhi Duncan]

It really is amazing that this team is somehow performing worse than last year's tank squad.

Yes, I know we moved several key pieces midseason and the results followed...but we are currently on pace to lose more games than our third-worst finish from last year despite adding a "generational" number one pick...(not suggesting Victor is any less, but we are seeing his youth and inexperience in action now)

Not going to beat the dead horse of trying to reason why, but still just sad to see. I'm fine with losing games, but I'd at least like to see the team compete and develop and they seem to be trending in the wrong direction right now. And that is with Wemby playing every single game so far which was a question mark coming into the season.

We didn't have a PF and out starting PG

[paperboy77]

Wemby is more like getting rookie DRob not getting rookie Duncan.

Duncan had 4 years of experience and development before his rookie NBA season. That would be at the earliest 2028 Wemby for comparison. However the current calendar says 2023-2024 just fyi.

Rookie Duncan had 4 more years of prior basketball development than Wembanyama, but rookie Duncan also dropped into a more developed surrounding team too imho.

Veteran DRob but still elite, serious help like Elliott. I am not sure Wemby has the comparable surrounding talent either.

Even still took 2 seasons for rookie Duncan to win a ring, at massively more optimal circumstances. You gave Wemby 10 games before giving up. Everyone said this would be a tinker season.

Are current Spurs fans being realistic about Wemby era or are they being childish and uninformed?

It's okay, Wemby is a sensation and brought in a lot of fans new to basketball. Wemby effect.

I don't think anyone was thinking championships, but can you not see a terrible coaching job by Pop? Yes, all true about when Robinson and TD came in, but these guys should be better that what they are doing. Maybe still losing but not like this.

2-3 years for what? Playoffs or rings? The NBA has made it ridiculously easy to sneak in the playoffs so this year as a 10 seed was definitely a darkhorse shot at getting in. I think everyone here in ST thought last year's team when healthy and well coached could be a decent team. Now we add Wemby and we've gone backwards like we are? It's all Pop and his ego holding us back.

[Pauleta14]

Wemby doesn't come straight from high school

His pro exp is at least > 2y in college

He's just much younger and less NBA ready physically than DRob & Timmy

... and he has a shitiest roster, no PG, no experienced vets etc

[heyheymymy]

Wemby doesn't come straight from high school

His pro exp is at least > 2y in college

He's just much younger and less NBA ready physically than DRob & Timmy

... and he has a shitiest roster, no PG, no experienced vets etc

Good point about his LNB and national team play and don't want to discredit that. In July, I watched Vic advance 2 rounds into the Finals and that was very intense atmosphere for sure. Guys like Pons were grown adult competition and likely better than NCAA caliber. ASVEL was a pretty complete team.

Kinda a good metaphor too because Mets92 had zero help for Wemby too (suppose Bilal was pretty good but still), as a foreshadowing of his first season in SA later on. Oh and zero PG either bc Mets92's best/only PG was out with injury at the time.

So get ready for 2026 Wemby instead of 2028 Wemby then, good point! /s

[z0sa]

I don't think anyone was thinking championships, but can you not see a terrible coaching job by Pop? Yes, all true about when Robinson and TD came in, but these guys should be better that what they are doing. Maybe still losing but not like this.

2-3 years for what? Playoffs or rings? The NBA has made it ridiculously easy to sneak in the playoffs so this year as a 10 seed was definitely a darkhorse shot at getting in. I think everyone here in ST thought last year's team when healthy and well coached could be a decent team. Now we add Wemby and we've gone backwards like we are? It's all Pop and his ego holding us back.

The most important question. 78 year old Pop/the same or a similar Spurs roster fighting for a playoff berth 3 years from now would be the ultimate failure regarding Wemby and our expectations as a fanbase, IMHO. It's all about rings here now, just like somewhere such as Boston. We've won for too long and gone all the way too many times for any one (in living memory) to accept anything less than full blown contention. This season, okay no, but I really, truly want to be a dark horse by the end of next season. Is this even possible with how the Spurs FO is acting right now? They act like they have all the time in the world just because our roster is young ..

[MannyIsGod]

Time comes for everyone and its simply come for Pop. Its time for him to hand over the reigns to someone else and because we all know he's untouchable its going to have to be his decision. I really hope he sees that its time to retire.

[rascal]

Time comes for everyone and its simply come for Pop. Its time for him to hand over the reigns to someone else and because we all know he's untouchable its going to have to be his decision. I really hope he sees that its time to retire.

Until the wheels fall off.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Time comes for everyone and its simply come for Pop. Its time for him to hand over the reigns to someone else and because we all know he's untouchable its going to have to be his decision. I really hope he sees that its time to retire.

They could slide him into some other role so he still gets paid.

I never wanted to say Pop is done, but I’m imagining Ime coaching the Spurs right now and my guess is that they’d look a lot better at this point. Watching Pop is a little like watching the YMCA coach whose kids are just out there running around. Coach is talking and no one’s listening.

The only thing that could save Pop is if he had that #1 assistant that the players can buy into who becomes the pseudo head-coach until Pop hands things off. That would make his exit easier too.

[Obstructed_View]

How the fuck does Brett Brown not know what's going on?

[Vince Carter's ankle]

I don't think anyone was thinking championships, but can you not see a terrible coaching job by Pop? Yes, all true about when Robinson and TD came in, but these guys should be better that what they are doing. Maybe still losing but not like this.

2-3 years for what? Playoffs or rings? The NBA has made it ridiculously easy to sneak in the playoffs so this year as a 10 seed was definitely a darkhorse shot at getting in. I think everyone here in ST thought last year's team when healthy and well coached could be a decent team. Now we add Wemby and we've gone backwards like we are? It's all Pop and his ego holding us back.
this is the argument
damn, well, since everyone here in ST thought...
a fucking expert meeting convened right away
not lil boys with high expectations who are unable to accept and analyze the ongoing processes without nostalgic tears

[spurraider21]

Wemby is more like getting rookie DRob not getting rookie Duncan.

Duncan had 4 years of experience and development before his rookie NBA season. That would be at the earliest 2028 Wemby for comparison. However the current calendar says 2023-2024 just fyi.

Rookie Duncan had 4 more years of prior basketball development than Wembanyama, but rookie Duncan also dropped into a more developed surrounding team too imho.

Veteran DRob but still elite, serious help like Elliott. I am not sure Wemby has the comparable surrounding talent either.

Even still took 2 seasons for rookie Duncan to win a ring, at massively more optimal circumstances. You gave Wemby 10 games before giving up. Everyone said this would be a tinker season.

Are current Spurs fans being realistic about Wemby era or are they being childish and uninformed?

It's okay, Wemby is a sensation and brought in a lot of fans new to basketball. Wemby effect.
Tim Duncan started playing basketball at 14 years old. Wemby was playing professionally at 15

you could say that Duncan was more physically developed at 21 than wemby is at 19, especially so given Wembys unique frame. Basketball experience isn’t a great argument though

[Extra Stout]

I didn’t think they’d be very good, maybe 29-53, but from what I’ve seen so far they would have to improve a lot to get to that number of wins. I thought they would at least be competitive most nights. The combination of offensive collapses and constant defensive errors is dispiriting.

I wonder about the Sochan experiment. Graham is a serviceable option at point guard, but they’re not using him. With Jones out, they just let the offense languish. And, Sochan’s +/- numbers are abysmal. Is this really an attempt to turn him into Bobo or is it tanking? It is suspicious. But who would they be tanking for? There are several good point guard prospects; they don’t have to go 15-67 to get one of them.

[Extra Stout]

Wembanyama is fine, I think. Before the season, many thought his offense would be inefficient and that he would turn the ball over a lot. That is what has transpired so far. He’ll improve as the season goes along.

[Extra Stout]

The advanced stats indicate that Wemby is a force on defense. It’s just that when he’s off the floor they have a defensive rating of like 150. It’s a bad team full of marginal NBA players.

They wanted to “see what they have.” Doesn’t look like they have anything around Wemby. Maybe Vassell. Sochan might develop eventually, but I think he is being misused. Johnson is nothing special, and the fact that they “need” him this season for his offensive “prowess” just underscores the lack of talent. Jones and Collins are bench role players. Graham is serviceable. The rest of the roster is flotsam.

[mexicanjunior]

It's gotten to the point now where I am hoping Sochan gets hurt just so I can see what the Spurs would look like with a legitimate NBA caliber lineup. I had such high hopes for Sochan after last season but he has become the new Forbes in that I cringe just seeing him dribble up the court.

[paperboy77]

It's gotten to the point now where I am hoping Sochan gets hurt just so I can see what the Spurs would look like with a legitimate NBA caliber lineup. I had such high hopes for Sochan after last season but he has become the new Forbes in that I cringe just seeing him dribble up the court.

Pretty pathetic but that same thought crossed my mind. Sad thing it's not really that I don't like Jeremy but more about how this might be the only reason Pop changes this madness with Sochan at the PG!

[mexicanjunior]

Pretty pathetic but that same thought crossed my mind. Sad thing it's not really that I don't like Jeremy but more about how this might be the only reason Pop changes this madness with Sochan at the PG!

Yeah, I don't hate Sochan at all, he is just being put in a horrible position by Pop. If he missed some time, and the adjusted lineup actually won some games, I would think Pop would see the error in his ways but probably not.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Wembanyama is fine, I think. Before the season, many thought his offense would be inefficient and that he would turn the ball over a lot. That is what has transpired so far. He’ll improve as the season goes along.


The advanced stats indicate that Wemby is a force on defense. It’s just that when he’s off the floor they have a defensive rating of like 150. It’s a bad team full of marginal NBA players.

They wanted to “see what they have.” Doesn’t look like they have anything around Wemby. Maybe Vassell. Sochan might develop eventually, but I think he is being misused. Johnson is nothing special, and the fact that they “need” him this season for his offensive “prowess” just underscores the lack of talent. Jones and Collins are bench role players. Graham is serviceable. The rest of the roster is flotsam.


Good points; the main concern for me is Pop's inability to see that Sochan is not a facilitator. Something Bobo was.

[itzsoweezee]

Good points; the main concern for me is Pop's inability to see that Sochan is not a facilitator. Something Bobo was.

Sochan is a decent facilitator, and can become better with that. What he can’t do, however, is dribble. He has horrible touch, bad hands. Two prerequisites for a point guard. If you’re 20 years old and can’t dribble, it’s never going to happen. Every trip down the court is a struggle because he lacks he even the basics for playing point

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan is a decent facilitator, and can become better with that. What he can’t do, however, is dribble. He has horrible touch, bad hands. Two prerequisites for a point guard. If you’re 20 years old and can’t dribble, it’s never going to happen. Every trip down the court is a struggle because he lacks he even the basics for playing point
Figured somebody would post something retarded like this since he got his pocket picked multiple times in the last game. Thanks for being predictable. :lol

[itzsoweezee]

Figured somebody would post something retarded like this since he got his pocket picked multiple times in the last game. Thanks for being predictable. :lol

Lol at “last game”. You dumbshit. I can count on my fingers the number of times he’s been able to bring the ball up court without having to turn his back to the defender. His handle is absolutely trash