Grades: Spurs vs. Hawks - Nov. 30, 2023

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-hawks-grades-18/

[buttsR4rebounding]

Thanks for the quick grades TiMVP. Wemby definitely seems lost on defense at times. Especially on lay up attempts where he is at the rim and makes no attempt to block the shot.

[tbdog]

Of course Sochan D got worse because he was gassed. Guarding Young for high 30 mins. Pop needs to rotate that more. Now if Sochan wasnt bringing the ball up so often, then he might have defended better at the end.

[z0sa]

Sochan did so well because he wasn’t asked to bring the ball up/initiate so often. Kid could be a monster, but only if Pop plays to his strengths.

Wemby does get caught watching from time to time. I dont think its laziness as much as it is just a 19 yr old rookie doing 19 yr old rookie thangs.

Zollins is a joke.

[jeebus]

Branham needs to be exiled; the kid cannot play ball. And it'd be nice if Wemby had some big men that could actually help, maybe a vet. Collins and Bassey ain't it. Bassey was garbage last night outside of his blocks.

[Obstructed_View]

Anybody other than me notice the zone defense?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pop A-, Keldon B+.

LJ mailing it in like the old man. Come on man Pop doesn't deserve better than F until he figures out how to coach defense again and does something besides post another L to the record.

Keldon, you aren't the first option when Wemby and Vass are on the court together. You were a one man run for Atl in the fourth with all those bricks. Dude needs a C at best.

[TDomination]

it bums me out to see branham looking the way he does. i thought initially he showed so much promise. but he seems to be going down hill and fast.
but hes still only 20 so its still too early to give up on him. though he shouldn't be starting.

[sananspursfan21]

It’s a weird feeling to say the offense was really solid except for the turnovers. Taking care of the ball is a huge part of good offense. But I liked what I saw offensively aside from that.

It’s also weird to me that I think they’ve got the individual talent to be a great defensive team. A lot of these guys have the tools but as a collective, it’s the worst defense I think I’ve seen in all of basketball, not just NBA.

[onechance87]

pop gotta stop playing branham...Guy dont belong in the nba

[Obstructed_View]

It’s a weird feeling to say the offense was really solid except for the turnovers. Taking care of the ball is a huge part of good offense. But I liked what I saw offensively aside from that.

It’s also weird to me that I think they’ve got the individual talent to be a great defensive team. A lot of these guys have the tools but as a collective, it’s the worst defense I think I’ve seen in all of basketball, not just NBA.
It's done in steps. It's equally weird to say they play well in ten minute spurts. They played more consistently last night than they have. They put several 48 minute efforts together and then start working on taking care of the ball at the same time, suddenly they are winning a few games here and there.

Last night they ran a zone, so guys could switch and pick up three point shooters. First time Ive noticed it this year. Their defense at the perimeter was the best it's been all season.

[spursparker9]

Branhan is second coming of James Anderson

[rjv]

great effort tarnished by a stellar outing from Tre Young and poor defense. i really want it to work out for maliki but it's not looking good so far this season. zollins, for all the supposed dog he has in him, is really soft down in the blocks. i'm perfectly fine with him as a center off the bench but he is nowhere near starting material.

[MannyIsGod]

If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard, why the fuck are we trying to fit him into a PG role? Dude can drive with the ball as a forward and he did that when we had a true point guard on the floor! Its so damn obvious that Sochan isn't a point in any sense of the word and it does not make sense to make him the primary ball handler at all. The Spurs desperately need a vet point guard at this point and they should be trying more than anything to bring one in.

The Sochan shit has to stop and last night was a great example why.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Hopefully Pop can recognize that plugging Sochan into anything traditional as a PG won't work. He's got talent enough to be a good contributor if we allow him to play to his strengths.

Liked the effort last night which is all we, as fans, want to see. I'm ok with this team putting it out there and losing. I just don't like us rolling over against teams. Unfortunately until this roster gets beefed up I don't expect to see too many wins...just give the effort.

[Alain]

If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard, why the fuck are we trying to fit him into a PG role?

Tony Parker says HI !

[The Truth #6]

If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard, why the fuck are we trying to fit him into a PG role? Dude can drive with the ball as a forward and he did that when we had a true point guard on the floor! Its so damn obvious that Sochan isn't a point in any sense of the word and it does not make sense to make him the primary ball handler at all. The Spurs desperately need a vet point guard at this point and they should be trying more than anything to bring one in.

The Sochan shit has to stop and last night was a great example why.

So Sochan has a great game and actually passed well and got others involved and we almost won for the first time since October...and you see this as Sochan's fault? I was ready to pull the plug on Jeremy as point guard, but if he can continue to play like last night as a point guard, I'm okay going forward to give it more time.

[MannyIsGod]

So Sochan has a great game and actually passed well and got others involved and we almost won for the first time since October...and you see this as Sochan's fault? I was ready to pull the plug on Jeremy as point guard, but if he can continue to play like last night as a point guard, I'm okay going forward to give it more time.

He had a great game because TRE JONES WAS OUT THERE RUNNING THE POINT! Did you watch the game?

[MannyIsGod]

Tony Parker says HI !

Tony Parker was great at getting his teammates involved. He averaged over five and a half assists over his career despite being a score first point guard. Tehre was never any question that Parker was a point guard and Sochan doesn't have anything like Tony's ball handling. Comparing Tony and Sochan as point guards is outlandishly stupid.

[Spurs Homer]

As i pointed out - during SUMMER LEAGUE

Branham (and Wesley) are garbage and should be let go...

I have NEVER seen Zollins block one goddamn shot or stop anyone trying to score on him and he is careless with the ball to boot.

[rjv]

Hopefully Pop can recognize that plugging Sochan into anything traditional as a PG won't work. He's got talent enough to be a good contributor if we allow him to play to his strengths.

Liked the effort last night which is all we, as fans, want to see. I'm ok with this team putting it out there and losing. I just don't like us rolling over against teams. Unfortunately until this roster gets beefed up I don't expect to see too many wins...just give the effort.


that's pretty much what would make me happy as well, along with the continued development of Wemby and signs that there are at least a few pieces from this current roster that can be solid contributors. so seeing the combination of devin, sochan and even keldon, along with Wemby, putting up the numbers they did in a close game is perfectly fine with me, even if the hawks are almost as bad as the spurs, defensively.

[The Truth #6]

He had a great game because TRE JONES WAS OUT THERE RUNNING THE POINT! Did you watch the game?

Tre has been running the point all season long when he plays and that has nothing to do with Jeremy having a great game last night. What changed was Jeremy played much better. I think you don't like Jeremy playing point guard and you're moving backwards trying to justify it. Jeremy has been awful all year except last night. It's that SIMPLE.

[BacktoBasics]

If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard, why the fuck are we trying to fit him into a PG role? Dude can drive with the ball as a forward and he did that when we had a true point guard on the floor! Its so damn obvious that Sochan isn't a point in any sense of the word and it does not make sense to make him the primary ball handler at all. The Spurs desperately need a vet point guard at this point and they should be trying more than anything to bring one in.

The Sochan shit has to stop and last night was a great example why.

I don’t think in a vacuum a vet pg moves the needle enough this season. With that said it’s not that I disagree with you because I don’t. I think knowing that this season wasn’t going to be a deep playoff run regardless means we don’t need to have a massive sense of urgency to solve the problem.

Wouldn’t it make the most sense to be prudent with our assets this year, see what teams are selling at the trade deadline then again before the draft. That way we’re making the most out of assets. I don’t feel like today is the day we absolutely have to go hard for a pg. I feel we got time to address that and could end up with a vet this off season and probably one through the draft as well. All without having to either overpay or even make a super competitive trade offer. I don’t see teams giving up a good vet pg at a reasonable price right now.

[TDomination]

Branhan is second coming of James Anderson

james anderson seemed really good until his injury

i can't remember what his injury was, but i remember that it changed everything for him as a player

[stephen jackson]

No wemby

[The Truth #6]

james anderson seemed really good until his injury

i can't remember what his injury was, but i remember that it changed everything for him as a player

Yeah he had a good month or so then broke a bone in his foot. Jones fracture perhaps.

[Alain]

Tony Parker was great at getting his teammates involved. He averaged over five and a half assists over his career despite being a score first point guard. Tehre was never any question that Parker was a point guard and Sochan doesn't have anything like Tony's ball handling. Comparing Tony and Sochan as point guards is outlandishly stupid.

At what point do I compare Tony with Sochan ?
I was simply replying to your take "If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard". In 2001, everybody acknowledged that Tony would never be a traditional pass first point guard but still Pop put him in the starting lineup 6 games into the season. Then, he made tons of mistakes, averaged 4.3 assists/game which wass very low, even for a rookie and many were upset about it, like you are today. The rest is history.
Please, work a bit on reading comprhension before calling anyone stupid.

[scott]

Loved seeing this game from Sochan, who I have (rightfully) been critical of this season. MannyIsGod is right and this game just goes to show that Sochan isn’t a lost cause, he just needs to stop playing PG. Didn’t read Manny’s post as saying anything is Sochan’s fault at all, but rather he is being done a disservice by being put in a position he can’t succeed in (playing PG).

[Seventyniner]

james anderson seemed really good until his injury

i can't remember what his injury was, but i remember that it changed everything for him as a player

Fifth metatarsal.

This Reddit post from 2016 had a compilation of players with that injury, but it's inconclusive as to how it affected their careers because it doesn't say when the injury happened, career stats before and after, etc.

For example, I saw Rasheed Wallace on that list and thought "well he was pretty good so maybe the injury isn't so bad" until I looked up when it happened. 2013 when he was already near retirement.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/55akho/list_of_nba_players_w_5th_metatarsal_fractures/

I didn't look up every player on the list, but I did look up Damion James who broke his fifth metatarsal after his 17th career game (and first career start). He played 8 more games that season and only 14 more over the rest of his career (3 more seasons, the last of which was with the Beautiful Game Spurs).

I don't see a big dropoff in James Anderson's stats pre and post surgery, but he wasn't very good so perhaps the most we can say is that the injury robbed him of the chance to blossom.

[MannyIsGod]

At what point do I compare Tony with Sochan ?
I was simply replying to your take "If the acknowledgement is that Sochan will never be a traditional pass first point guard". In 2001, everybody acknowledged that Tony would never be a traditional pass first point guard but still Pop put him in the starting lineup 6 games into the season. Then, he made tons of mistakes, averaged 4.3 assists/game which wass very low, even for a rookie and many were upset about it, like you are today. The rest is history.
Please, work a bit on reading comprhension before calling anyone stupid.

What other position was Tony going to play other than point guard? In 2001 it was anything but clear that Tony wouldn't be a normal point guard. No one in 2001 was upset over him being named a starter. You think people were running around with Antonio Daniels jerseys saying NO NO NO? Thats revisionist nonsense. People were definitely surprised because it was a 19 year old frenchman no one knew anything about, but upset about it? Not even close. Furthermore, Tony is a point guard. He has always been a point and it was never assumed he'd be playing anything else. What Pop is doing with Sochan is nothing like putting Tony into the starting lineup at 19 but rather putting Tony into the starting lineup not as a replacement for Antonio Daniels but instead for David Robinson at a position he had no business playing and saying "well Tony isn't a natural rebound first center but lets just run with it".

Sochan at the point isn't like putting in Tony Parker instead of a guy like Jason Kidd. Its playing someone completely out of position in a position they have no natural aptitude for when its clear he can succeed as a forward. Its an excuse to not have to deal with benching someone out of Vassel, Keldon, or Collins. We have a good deal of evidence that its NEVER going to be a good situation to play Sochan at the 1 because its completely foreign to him.

Bringing up Tony Parker in this context is just dumb as fuck. Stop.

[MannyIsGod]

Tre has been running the point all season long when he plays and that has nothing to do with Jeremy having a great game last night. What changed was Jeremy played much better. I think you don't like Jeremy playing point guard and you're moving backwards trying to justify it. Jeremy has been awful all year except last night. It's that SIMPLE.

Tre hasn't been running the point all season with Sochan on the court. Just do me a favor and go back and watch the 2nd quarter after Tre Checks in and Sochan goes on a big one man run. He does it because he's not trying to run an offense but is instead in favorable positions to utilize his skills to get to the bucket. He's also in better position to shoot catch and shoot 3s when he doesn't have the ball. He's not trying to back down a small point guard and take some shitty shot in the post but is instead playing off ball AT A POSITION HE IS ACTUALLY SUITED TO!

Sochan has been awful a lot of this season because he's being asked to do shit he's not capable of instead of actually filling the role that he can. Its amazing that players actually do better when you put them in positions where they can succeed.

[scott]

What a wild conversation. Why not just play Bassey or Barlow at PG, since Tony Parker wasn’t a traditional PG?

[MannyIsGod]

I don’t think in a vacuum a vet pg moves the needle enough this season. With that said it’s not that I disagree with you because I don’t. I think knowing that this season wasn’t going to be a deep playoff run regardless means we don’t need to have a massive sense of urgency to solve the problem.

Wouldn’t it make the most sense to be prudent with our assets this year, see what teams are selling at the trade deadline then again before the draft. That way we’re making the most out of assets. I don’t feel like today is the day we absolutely have to go hard for a pg. I feel we got time to address that and could end up with a vet this off season and probably one through the draft as well. All without having to either overpay or even make a super competitive trade offer. I don’t see teams giving up a good vet pg at a reasonable price right now.

You don't even need to give up any assets aside from cutting a player. Austin Rivers is making podcasts and I would much rather have him taking a roster spot and taking minutes while we develop Sochan and Wemby. There are other vet free agents out there. I don't care if who they get is a long term solution but I just don't want to see this team waste more time on the bullshit that is this Sochan experiment. Hell, give Grahmn minutes over doing this shit.

[spurs10]

Had some high hopes, but it was not to be. At least some guys had some good performances. I've been wondering if a loss like this will give them drive or take the wind out of them. Glad they are young, so a b2b might not be as tough. On to NO..

[Alain]

What other position was Tony going to play other than point guard? In 2001 it was anything but clear that Tony wouldn't be a normal point guard. No one in 2001 was upset over him being named a starter. You think people were running around with Antonio Daniels jerseys saying NO NO NO? Thats revisionist nonsense. People were definitely surprised because it was a 19 year old frenchman no one knew anything about, but upset about it? Not even close. Furthermore, Tony is a point guard. He has always been a point and it was never assumed he'd be playing anything else. What Pop is doing with Sochan is nothing like putting Tony into the starting lineup at 19 but rather putting Tony into the starting lineup not as a replacement for Antonio Daniels but instead for David Robinson at a position he had no business playing and saying "well Tony isn't a natural rebound first center but lets just run with it".

Sochan at the point isn't like putting in Tony Parker instead of a guy like Jason Kidd. Its playing someone completely out of position in a position they have no natural aptitude for when its clear he can succeed as a forward. Its an excuse to not have to deal with benching someone out of Vassel, Keldon, or Collins. We have a good deal of evidence that its NEVER going to be a good situation to play Sochan at the 1 because its completely foreign to him.

Bringing up Tony Parker in this context is just dumb as fuck. Stop.

I do agree with all of that, except maybe when you say that noone was upset (too bad we can't dig old Spursreport conversations), it's just that you completly missed my point. Pop loves to experiment out of the box, deal with it. He might be completly senile, or he has a plan and you don't get it nor do we. Considering that he will never be fired, all we can do is watch and comment, preferably with a cold head.
And frankly, I don't get the point of being that angry about what is just an extended preseason.

[The Truth #6]

Tre hasn't been running the point all season with Sochan on the court. Just do me a favor and go back and watch the 2nd quarter after Tre Checks in and Sochan goes on a big one man run. He does it because he's not trying to run an offense but is instead in favorable positions to utilize his skills to get to the bucket. He's also in better position to shoot catch and shoot 3s when he doesn't have the ball. He's not trying to back down a small point guard and take some shitty shot in the post but is instead playing off ball AT A POSITION HE IS ACTUALLY SUITED TO!

Sochan has been awful a lot of this season because he's being asked to do shit he's not capable of instead of actually filling the role that he can. Its amazing that players actually do better when you put them in positions where they can succeed.

Tre and Sochan have been playing together for a few weeks now. But sure, if tonight's game is a blowout, I may go back and check out the Atlanta game if it's still on Bally. Regardless, I still think you are overemphasizing Tre's input and downplaying Sochan playing well as a point guard last night. But that's fine.

I think the problem with your argument is that you want Jeremy to play his natural position, but that overlaps too much with Victor's natural position, which is oftentimes power forward. I also think what's not appreciated is that coach Pop might be playing Jeremy at point guard in the hopes to find some place for him on the team with VW, rather than trading him. So if any player gets traded for a point guard, it might actually be Sochan.

[MannyIsGod]

Tre and Sochan have been playing together for a few weeks now. But sure, if tonight's game is a blowout, I may go back and check out the Atlanta game if it's still on Bally. Regardless, I still think you are overemphasizing Tre's input and downplaying Sochan playing well as a point guard last night. But that's fine.

I think the problem with your argument is that you want Jeremy to play his natural position, but that overlaps too much with Victor's natural position, which is oftentimes power forward. I also think what's not appreciated is that coach Pop might be playing Jeremy at point guard in the hopes to find some place for him on the team with VW, rather than trading him. So if any player gets traded for a point guard, it might actually be Sochan.

Sochan played terribly as a point guard last night just like eevry other night. He scored when he was not playing the PG last night. Look at his turnover count. Barely a 1:1 A:TO ratio. You're conflating Sochan playing well as as scorer to him somehow being good as a PG. Why the fuck would they trade him? His value is incredibly low and he's on a rookie contract. There's no way a trade with him involved would be a good thing for the Spurs barring him being a piece in a trade for a young star. This is just a weird thing to be worried about.

[rjv]

the presumption that all of us have to make is that the sochan experiment is solely about him being the PG for the remainder of this season and perhaps beyond that. of course, none of us are privy to what conversations have been had or what the actual plan for sochan is. if the endgame is for him to be PG, then it is fair enough to say the optics have not been good so far. if the endgame is for sochan to reap some of the benefits from learning the PG position but play in a more natural role, eventually, then i don't know that this is all bad. this truly is an experimental season and one that i hope answers more questions rather than raising more.

[SouthernFryd]

Has anyone mentioned the passing?

I mean, it was one of the worst passing exhibitions I have ever seen in an NBA game. Something like 20 turnovers?? It's the reason we lost the game.

We only win if we have a good offensive night, since our Defense is non-existent. Well, we had a decent offensive night, Defense was bad, but we still had a chance. The bad passing and turnovers lost this game. We would have been up 20 points, if we only committed half the turnovers...which is still a lot of turnovers. It would have never come down to that last play.

We've been a horrible passing team all year. Evidenced by they don't even know how to do a simply entry pass to a 7'3" center. I mean, everyone...including Wemby, can't pass worth shit. Normal passing. Out of bounds passing, entry passing, etc. Nobody knows how to do a bounce pass...90% of the passes are line drive passes. You get an occasional "great pass" moment...then 20 terrible ones. I kinda/sorta give a pass, lol...to Zach. He's an average passer, but looks like the greatest passer ever on this team.

Somebody should maybe point this out every now and again. Not just an individual who makes a bad pass...but the entire team. Send a sticky to Pop about it. Or, whoever is making an effort to do any coaching on this team. Cuz bad team passing? That's another bad coaching issue.

So, stick the Sticky it on a basketball and line drive it off Pops head. Maybe it'll rattle something loose that'll help.

[sananspursfan21]

It's done in steps. It's equally weird to say they play well in ten minute spurts. They played more consistently last night than they have. They put several 48 minute efforts together and then start working on taking care of the ball at the same time, suddenly they are winning a few games here and there.

Last night they ran a zone, so guys could switch and pick up three point shooters. First time Ive noticed it this year. Their defense at the perimeter was the best it's been all season.

I didn’t pick up on that (watched the game in spurts while cleaning the house) but I did notice that Trae passed up a number of 3s which is huge. I agree with you, there are steps in the right direction and that’s all I can ask for.

[The Truth #6]

Sochan played terribly as a point guard last night just like eevry other night. He scored when he was not playing the PG last night. Look at his turnover count. Barely a 1:1 A:TO ratio. You're conflating Sochan playing well as as scorer to him somehow being good as a PG. Why the fuck would they trade him? His value is incredibly low and he's on a rookie contract. There's no way a trade with him involved would be a good thing for the Spurs barring him being a piece in a trade for a young star. This is just a weird thing to be worried about.

The season is weird. We as fans have little idea how the team came to the conclusions that they did. You're the one suggesting a lot of things that contradict each other. You want the spurs to trade for a point guard but yet you find it odd that it could end up being a player that plays the same position as Victor. Ok. Most of our players are young. Nobody wants Doug. I don't see the team trading any unprotected future picks. Anyway. Keep telling us more about how Sochan hasn't been a good point guard this year. Everyone knows that already.

[Joseph Kony]

Loved seeing this game from Sochan, who I have (rightfully) been critical of this season. MannyIsGod (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=76) is right and this game just goes to show that Sochan isn’t a lost cause, he just needs to stop playing PG. Didn’t read Manny’s post as saying anything is Sochan’s fault at all, but rather he is being done a disservice by being put in a position he can’t succeed in (playing PG).

Yep. As I've said before I hate that Pop has taken my favorite player from last season and made him my least favorite player this season simply by forcing him into a position he is not suited for.

Sochan is a good young player with a lot of potential. But one thing he is NOT, is a PG. and he will NEVER be one

[spurs10]

And Wemby is out against the Pels tonight.

[koriwhat]

Game was fun to watch, in person from the Charter level, but damn it stings to lose such a close game.

[Raven]

I thought pop lost this one himself. Should have kept champagnie and wemby in for way longer in the third when they were hot. No reason to play malaki when he's not balling, and you can't play jones when young is hot.

[heyheymymy]

Loved what I saw from Sochan last night. Incredible stuff.

There were some games last season where Jeremy Sochan would take over for stretches of play. He was all over the place, poking away balls, unstoppable, slamming dunk finishes, just doing everything. The Hawks game was the first time I've seen that old Sochan this season as others have also pointed out.

There was that play last night where Sochan had the ball on offense, left his feet with the ball before having a shot or passing option. Sochan was mid-air with the ball, put his head on a swivel and looked to the paint, saw nothing, whipped his head over to the perimeter, found an open Vassell and hit him with a pass for a good 3PT shot by Dev.

Really can see the early fruits of growing court vision for Sochan but it's a work in progress with a lot to learn still. That head swivel, dare I say, was very vaguely reminiscent of Tony Parker. Yeah I said it. Not a player comparison, not equating skill, just that Parker et al used to always leave feet before knowing his pass destination and would do that same swivel head scan thing.

Like Lee Corso says, gotta keep your head on a swivel, kid. Not saying Sochan will be a PG, or has any real, natural court vision or ever will. Hell, Sochan had 6AST/5TO so really only one true AST last night. Def still a broken project work in progress. But I still like using this throw away season to try and hone out extra attribute enhancements from personnel wherever possible.

[MannyIsGod]

The season is weird. We as fans have little idea how the team came to the conclusions that they did. You're the one suggesting a lot of things that contradict each other. You want the spurs to trade for a point guard but yet you find it odd that it could end up being a player that plays the same position as Victor. Ok. Most of our players are young. Nobody wants Doug. I don't see the team trading any unprotected future picks. Anyway. Keep telling us more about how Sochan hasn't been a good point guard this year. Everyone knows that already.

Damn homie. I wouldn't have engaged in this conversation if I knew you were illiterate. When you learn to read maybe you can use those newly acquired skills to look at the post where I say they shouldn't trade for a vet pg in this very thread and then realize I never said they should trade for one much less trade Sochan. Life as an illiterate adult must be hard so my condolences.

[The Truth #6]

Damn homie. I wouldn't have engaged in this conversation if I knew you were illiterate. When you learn to read maybe you can use those newly acquired skills to look at the post where I say they shouldn't trade for a vet pg in this very thread and then realize I never said they should trade for one much less trade Sochan. Life as an illiterate adult must be hard so my condolences.

True.I glossed over your emo all caps ranting. But when I read more closely I see your idea is actually way, way worse. You want to sign Austin Rivers to solve the point guard issue. A player that sucked before he was retired. Good luck with that.