Grades: Spurs @ Timberwolves - Dec. 6, 2023

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-timberwolves-grades-20/

15. :(

[TrainOfThought5]

TIMVP which point guard do you want in the upcoming draft?

[freetiago]

Osman looked better at PG then Sochan has even though he has no experience or ever played the position but Pop will go back to him. They’re desperate to make their highest pick since Duncan not look like a bust. I just don’t see a single good thing Sochan does on the court. Has 0 offensive skills and isn’t a good defender either. They should just play Victor at the 5 at least vs the Bulls. They don’t have a dominant big post scorer. Team needs a win bad for morale and not to shut down

[Pauleta14]

All this time to train/coach and Pop comes up with THAT???

I wanna hear what the popologists have to say now

[Raven]

good god, pop just going full ret

[weebo]

All this time to train/coach and Pop comes up with THAT???

I wanna hear what the popologists have to say now

8-36 on 3 point attempts. That's what lost you the game. They were getting open looks (Collins) but were bricking them. Look at the overall stats. They played a lot cleaner and tighter on defense. They took care of the ball and played with energy. But I guess to you basketball savants that has nothing to do with coaching. :lol

[spurraider21]

TIMVP which point guard do you want in the upcoming draft?
Tre should be a backup but he’s the only guard we have who is a table setter so it kind of has to be him right now. But they need to start giving Graham a run with reserve minutes to see how that plays out since he’s actually a dangerous shooter who can handle the ball.

at some point in the season, painful as likely will be, give Wesley some minutes. Gotta have someone out there who can break a defense down.

[spursparker9]

TIMVP which point guard do you want in the upcoming draft?

Bronny James with no heart attack

[Pauleta14]

8-36 on 3 point attempts. That's what lost you the game. They were getting open looks (Collins) but were bricking them. Look at the overall stats. They played a lot cleaner and tighter on defense. They took care of the ball and played with energy. But I guess to you basketball savants that has nothing to do with coaching. :lol

always an excuse … lmao

it’s close to be some sort of religious narrative.

[Pauleta14]

Tre should be a backup but he’s the only guard we have who is a table setter so it kind of has to be him right now. But they need to start giving Graham a run with reserve minutes to see how that plays out since he’s actually a dangerous shooter who can handle the ball.

at some point in the season, painful as likely will be, give Wesley some minutes. Gotta have someone out there who can break a defense down.

Tre is horrible at NBA level. He looks decent bc the rest is horrible

he’s too small, can’t défend can’t shoot and average passer

he would be a liability even with 5min of playing time

[weebo]

always an excuse … lmao

it’s close to be some sort of religious narrative.

That's it? That's all you got? :lol 8-36 friend. You Numbers don't lie.

[Davidicus]

Rust game imo, shots just weren’t falling. Another “good loss”, but agreed kinda getting tired of those.

Best D we’ve played all year. We look more cohesive and less lost.

Consider me a fan of Cedí at PG. Yes still not an actual PG, but he has talents and allows more flow + spacing with his style of play. For all of Sochans flubs last night he at least looked more comfortable and eager.

Collins played like a cigarette butt out there. Sochan passed on some open shots and Pop got pissed. Still not running plays for Vic, so against Minnys bigs he’s gonna get shadowed into nothing on offense. Same goes for Vassell, in the 4th him and Vic were on the court and no one got them the ball when we needed a bucket. Was Tre, Sochan, or KJ dancing into a TO. Chalk it up to inexperience, or Pop preaching “let’s see what we’ve got”, or Minnys D, I don’t really know - but that was the outcome.

Overall some good trends, and hoping the bad was just rust, bc we’ve played better than that on offense previous recent games. My biggest complaint was where was Bassey? They have Gobert, KAT, and Reid, and Bassey doesn’t even step on the floor.

[Obstructed_View]

That's it? That's all you got? :lol 8-36 friend. You Numbers don't lie.

The offense didn't generate 36 good looks from three point range. You can't expect to hit at the league average rate putting up below average shots. I guess the Spurs do. Dick Motta had a more solid game plan with the Mavericks.

[Obstructed_View]

Tre is horrible at NBA level. He looks decent bc the rest is horrible

he’s too small, can’t défend can’t shoot and average passer

he would be a liability even with 5min of playing time

Tre looks decent because Sochan is 20. Same with Osman, who is 29.

Sochan came off the bench for Baylor, so this must be a great idea.

[weebo]

The offense didn't generate 36 good looks from three point range. You can't expect to hit at the league average rate putting up below average shots. I guess the Spurs do. Dick Motta had a more solid game plan with the Mavericks.

I guess you missed the part where Collins had open looks and went 0-6 from 3 grandpa. Dick Motta? Some relic from the early days of the NBA? :lol

[spurraider21]

Tre is horrible at NBA level. He looks decent bc the rest is horrible

he’s too small, can’t défend can’t shoot and average passer

he would be a liability even with 5min of playing time
He should be a backup. But he’s the only guy on the roster who can handle the ball and set up teammates. It’s not a choice it’s a lack of options

[buttsR4rebounding]

So we are 20 games in--a full quarter of the season--so what have we learned Pop with the let them figure it out approach? Did Pop decide Sochan isn't a point guard? If so, why not start Tre or Graham? I am truly dumbfounded by Graham's lack of opportunity. And when are the Spurs going to start actually running some plays for their #1 pick golden boy? If we are giving out first quarter grades Pop deserves an F-. I did like the defense a lot more last night, but it seems that moving KJ to the bench and playing Sochan at the 3 and starting Tre/Graham is the obvious move to make rather than Osman for Sochan.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I guess you missed the part where Collins had open looks and went 0-6 from 3 grandpa. Dick Motta? Some relic from the early days of the NBA? :lol

There's a reason Collins is open all the time.

[The Truth #6]

Not playing Graham seems idiotic by Pop. A real head scratcher. Starting Cedi was extremely weird. But cat nip for the perpetual Pop haters.

[LeBowen]

It's kind of sad that Pop will be one of those all-time greats who simply couldn't realize when it's enough.
Mainstream media and fans haven't caught up to it yet, but we all know keys need to be taken away from him.

He'll never get fired and he'd never leave mid-season, but starting the next season with 75 year old Pop on the bench would be a disaster.

[TDomination]

the thing cedi brings to the table that sochan doesn't is shooting. so i would say its a slight upgrade.

cedi shoots better than tre jones. jones has better handles and vision than cedi. so do you prefer worse shooting with better vision or better shooting with worse.

i'd take jones if the offense is focused on wemby. do more pick and roll. look for him more down low. if jones is playing, wemby HAS to, HAS to be the main focus. Vassell being secondary, johnson being the opportunistic playmaker and Collins being there for picking up leftovers. (though i know this isn't what it will be)

if cedi is starting, then it makes more sense to continue beautiful game style. but man, collins has to stop shooting so much. its beyond annoying. and i like him. but i think this is on pop. for allowing him to play this manner.

[Seventyniner]

Not playing Graham seems idiotic by Pop. A real head scratcher. Starting Cedi was extremely weird. But cat nip for the perpetual Pop haters.

I can't understand why they didn't cut him and keep Payne or Bullock if they're not going to play him. I suppose they want to use the fact that his contract next year is mostly non-guaranteed to make a deal at the trade deadline or next summer, but DNPing him all season to keep that option open isn't worth it.

[Mugen]

If you ever wanted to see a master class in how to ruin a promising young player's development, please look no further than what Pop has done with Jeremy since training camp :lol

I still think he's going to be a high end role player one day (the archetype that would be a perfect fit next to Wemby in a year or two) but it won't be with the Spurs. He'll flourish with a different team and a different coach that knows how to put him in positions to succeed and not absolutely kill his confidence. Demoting him to the bench after he finally showed a glimmer of hope at the new position is comically hilarious.

[Mugen]

Some additional thoughts:
-Graham and Mamu being glued to the bench during a 15 game losing streak is legitimately mind boggling
-Bassey getting 0mins after again a decent stretch and against a team that features Reid, KAT, and Gobert is again so comically terrible
-You can draw a straight line from halftime adjustments to the the Spurs being dead last in pt differential in the 3rd quarter. They were also absolutely terrible in the 3rd during the Duncan era but they actually had great players that could overcome the trash coaching
-The body language and comments of frustration from Sochan and Wemby with not so subtle shots at the coaching staff was great to see. The only way those two guys can ever be successful in SA together is with a new head coach and I think they're starting to see that


Just really can't overemphasize enough how terrible of a coach this season's Pop has been. They don't need to be this horrible and developmentally stunted to nab a top 5 pick in next year's weak draft. But they have been done exactly zero favors by the coaching staff this season and it's terrible to see.

I don't want to wish any ill will on any seniors but if the old man were to drop dead tomorrow, I legitimately think this team could make a run at the play-in because of how much better coaching they'd receive from literally anybody else.

[Mugen]

timvp Would be great to see an article outside of just grades now that we're at the quarter season mark. I know you've been Sniffing in the past but I just can't see how anybody could defend how this season has been handled so far.

[rjv]

pop wasn't kidding when he said he was going to experiment this season. when i saw sochan was coming off the bench only to see osman in his place, that was definitely a head scratcher.

[rjv]

also, this seems to be the norm for branham so far this season:


Branham failed to make much of an impact in his ten minutes. He wasn’t notably terrible but he also didn’t do much good of note.

[lefty]

“good loss”
“moral victory”

F’ing loser attitude

[z0sa]

also, this seems to be the norm for branham so far this season:

Branham is officially a bust. Can't shoot 3s consistently+super low release,

can't dribble without his head down/always looking for his own shot

can't finish, not very athletic.

His only saving grace is about C+ in ball handling at the 1 and B or so in the midrange. No worse shot in the game than a mid range 2.

[onechance87]

if anybody needed to be bench,It should been collins,And i like him.But its time to try
something else..The options are not good,But doubt they can be worse...Lets give bassey a
shot or barlow,Or even that other center we drafted whos in austin...And stop playing
branham ffs..hes so bad

[MultiTroll]

Just really can't overemphasize enough how terrible of a coach this season's Pop has been. They don't need to be this horrible and developmentally stunted to nab a top 5 pick in next year's weak draft. But they have been done exactly zero favors by the coaching staff this season and it's terrible to see.
That's a scary thought.
100 accurate.
No reason to believe he would do anything to help a top 5 / every reason to believe he will hinder.

Holt Jrs seem to not give a F as value of team skyrocketed after the Wemby ping pong ball.

[DPG21920]

Tre has not looked good since returning from injury IMO. I don’t understand benching Sochan either….just start Wemby/Sochan/Keldon/Vassell
timvp you planning on doing a 20 game summary article of where you see the Spurs, concerns, bright spots what you want to see moving forward?

[onechance87]

Tre has not looked good since returning from injury IMO. I don’t understand benching Sochan either….just start Wemby/Sochan/Keldon/Vassell
timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) you planning on doing a 20 game summary article of where you see the Spurs, concerns, bright spots what you want to see moving forward?

wemby wlll be injured battling bigs every game and defending the rim the whole game

[Mugen]

Tre has not looked good since returning from injury IMO. I don’t understand benching Sochan either….just start Wemby/Sochan/Keldon/Vassell
timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) you planning on doing a 20 game summary article of where you see the Spurs, concerns, bright spots what you want to see moving forward?

:lol

[CGD]

Interesting that Malaki only got 10m.

[DPG21920]

wemby wlll be injured battling bigs every game and defending the rim the whole game

Nah - he will be fine. It’s not the 90s. Other than a few, teams aren’t pounding it inside with traditional brute centers anymore

[DPG21920]

:lol

I get it - results are bad. But theres plenty of bright spots if you aren’t being cynical lol

[Mugen]

I get it - results are bad. But theres plenty of bright spots if you aren’t being cynical lol

Give me one, Deeps :lol

[onechance87]

Interesting that Malaki only got 10m.

He shouldint be playing at all...He should of been sent back to gleague 10 games ago....Pop trying
to develop him more then wemby....Dude plays zero d...Cant make shots,Cant create shots...Cant do
nothing...Rather have wesley back,At least he plays decent d

[DPG21920]

Give me one, Deeps :lol

Sochan 3PT shooting.

Dev legit 20PPG leading offensive scoring option

Keldon passing and showing a pulse on defense

Wemby passing all the eye tests for a star and putting up plenty of insane stat lines even as the worst version of himself


Definitely more rough spots and disappointments (Collins after getting paid, Tre struggling more than I thought, Branham really not making any leap forward, overall team defense being awful still, lack of shooting…)

[weebo]

There's a reason Collins is open all the time.

who do you want in his place? bassey?

[Mugen]

Sochan 3PT shooting.

Dev legit 20PPG leading offensive scoring option

Keldon passing and showing a pulse on defense

Wemby passing all the eye tests for a star and putting up plenty of insane stat lines even as the worst version of himself


Definitely more rough spots and disappointments (Collins after getting paid, Tre struggling more than I thought, Branham really not making any leap forward, overall team defense being awful still, lack of shooting…)

-Sochan looks like his confidence just took a final nail to the coffin after being benched
-Devin looked like a good scorer last year but the biggest question mark heading into this year was his health and those concerns haven't been assuaged at all
-I don't see much improvement from Keldon in either department. I guess effort wise on D but that hasn't translated into anything yet as evidenced by them being historically bad on that end again

I'll give you the Wemby "bright spot" but that is is immediately muted by this horrible losing streak and the fact that he has to be questioning whether he was drafted into the right situation.

Sorry to piss on your corn flakes, Deeps, but any joy I had heading into this season has been absolutely stomped on by the worst coaching performance in sports this century :lol

[weebo]

“good loss”
“moral victory”

F’ing loser attitude

Ya, I'm sure you're a real winner IRL :lol

[Chomag]

I'm gonna find out if Graham is a registered republican. Then it might make more sense of him being glued to the Bench.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess you missed the part where Collins had open looks and went 0-6 from 3 grandpa. Dick Motta? Some relic from the early days of the NBA? :lol

Let me let you in on a little secret, princess: an open look for Zach Collins is not a good shot. If it were, somebody would have thought to defend it by now. :lol

[The Truth #6]

There are very few good shots for this team this year at all. Everything is a struggle.

[Bruno]

To me, the only logical explanation behind the Osman at PG is tanking. I just hope they won't totally destroy Spurs' most promising players with that.

[weebo]

Let me let you in on a little secret, princess: an open look for Zach Collins is not a good shot. If it were, somebody would have thought to defend it by now. :lol

well no shit sherlock...that's why i said 8-36 from 3 lost the spurs the game...he's open and he bricks and so do many others...outside of vasell and johnson this is a poor shooting team (even wemby)... missed shots are on the player...this is year 0 of the real rebuild...this team will be a lot different in 2-3 years with wemby being the focal point...if you can't deal with the growing pains of rebuilding and developing a team then tune out and bandwagon back when they are better...

[mudd]

this shit is unwatchable, next is people in the stands staying home or going to the movies...maybe then who ever runs this show will wakeup.

[rjv]

this shit is unwatchable, next is people in the stands staying home or going to the movies...maybe then who ever runs this show will wakeup.

spurs at 13th in attendance in the league so far this year, with an average of 18,310 (99.8% capacity). oddly enough, the worst attendance is the pacers. maybe that's why coach riley was telling reporters the other day that his team is so fun to watch.

to clarify, these numbers are in total attendance and not percentage of seats sold. spurs are 14th in percentage and the pacers are 28th. the worst team in percentage is washington.

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop must've taught these guys a lot during practice in these 5 off days

[TD 21]

I realize the entire team is being put in position to not only fail, but not function offensively, but still; not one of the youth has showed marked progress.

Johnson would be the closest thing (decision making/IQ/handle), but he's more young veteran at this point.

[MultiTroll]

Wemby passing all the eye tests for a star and putting up plenty of insane stat lines even as the worst version of himself
A highlight reel of Wemby would be nice to see.

Already has made numerous shots that are reel worthy.
D blocks too.