Actually Pop and his defenders are idiots: the new Big Three that could save the Spurs' season

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs have taken the youngest team in the NBA, made them a year older and more experienced, added a generational-talent seven footer and...gotten worse than they were last season.

What a year.

I guess everyone is ready for another lottery pick, so why rock the boat? Because that boat will he in Seattle in five years or Victor will take his talents to anywhere but South Texas.

How to salvage the season? Easy. This assumes someone tells the Spurs to stop freezing out the best player on the team. Doesn't matter who plays point guard. Doesn't matter who starts. If the Spurs do these things they will find themselves with a chance to win nearly every game.

1. Draw fouls
The Spurs lead the league in pump fakes and acrobatic moves under the basket that rim out. They need to be told to stop avoiding contact. Go up strong. Go into defenders and get whistles. Go for dunks.

2. Sprint back on defense
Every possession somebody goes for a steal in the backcourt or pesters the dribbler. Dozens of times nobody picks up the man with the ball on the break. The Spurs need to get into their court and get set up early. NBA basketball is all about finding a soft spot in the defense. Eliminate that one.

3. Defend the three point line
Defend it to a fault. Giving up 20 dunks in the paint is better than giving up 14 three pointers. Don't double, don't sag, don't leave your man if he's at the perimeter. You have the best shot blocker in the league down in the paint. He doesn't need your help. Let teams take their chances. No open jumpers.

[NASpurs]

I never get why a simple drive to the basket from the opposing team causes this team to collapse like a dying star and leave 3 point shooters open time after time especially when you have Wemby in the middle. Every fucking team becomes a collective Steph Curry against us.

[Extra Stout]

I never get why a simple drive to the basket from the opposing team causes this team to collapse like a dying star and leave 3 point shooters open time after time especially when you have Wemby in the middle. Every fucking team becomes a collective Steph Curry against us.
I think there is some kind of scheme they are trying to run that involves dropping a defender to help around the rim and then rotating, but they’re just really bad at executing it. Maybe Pop figures eventually they’ll figure it out, or maybe they just have the wrong players to execute it.

[rankingtear]

Rim attempts have the highest points per possesion. The best defensive teams limit rim attempts first. They just don't have the personnel on defense. This is an audition so they either get good at recovering or get weeded out.

[SouthernFryd]

Yup.

This ain't hard...unless you make it so. Or, just too lazy to give a F and quit coaching cuz being a social justice warrior is just so much more fun.

[james evans]

3. Defend the three point line
Defend it to a fault. Giving up 20 dunks in the paint is better than giving up 14 three pointers. Don't double, don't sag, don't leave your man if he's at the perimeter. You have the best shot blocker in the league down in the paint. He doesn't need your help. Let teams take their chances. No open jumpers.
I have no idea why no one sees this. There are guys that have hit 3 or 4 open 3s and their assignments continue to double the paint

[Obstructed_View]

Rim attempts have the highest points per possesion. The best defensive teams limit rim attempts first. They just don't have the personnel on defense. This is an audition so they either get good at recovering or get weeded out.
Accepting this as a rule, what does a guard cheating down 8 feet toward the paint accomplish? They aren't blocking the shot. They aren't even challenging the shot. They could theoretically get a deflection or a steal, but usually two of the three guys cheating down aren't even in reach of the ball.

If allowing teams to shoot undefended three pointers were an effective way to limit rim attempts, everyone would be succeeding with the Spurs' strategy, including the Spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

I have no idea why no one sees this. There are guys that have hit 3 or 4 open 3s and their assignments continue to double the paint

I've seen nearly a dozen games so far where the Spurs keep leaving teams open until someone finally gets hot and then the floodgates open. Many times, it's how those double digit leads evaporate. A team is cold but they keep getting uncontested looks until they can zero in.

[Leetonidas]

It's funny because this is such basic level strategy for the modern NBA but it's 100% true. Pop is coaching like it's 2007 and the scheme is to make the opposing team bet them from 3, which every single team does basically every night :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Spurs fan is best fan when it comes to thinking they know more than the coaches in a low information environment.

[TrainOfThought5]

Spurs fan is best fan when it comes to thinking they know more than the coaches in a low information environment.

counterpoint Spurs fan thought Bryn Forbes sucked and playing Matt Bonner and Dejuan Blair together was a terrible idea.

also, low information Spurs fan submits the teams record of 4-21 as evidence that the coaching staff isn’t accomplishing the goal of winning games and perhaps strategies need to be changed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

counterpoint Spurs fan thought Bryn Forbes sucked and playing Matt Bonner and Dejuan Blair together was a terrible idea.

also, low information Spurs fan submits the teams record of 4-21 as evidence that the coaching staff isn’t accomplishing the goal of winning games and perhaps strategies need to be changed.

What do the Spurs work on in practice?

[z0sa]

Pop is literally acting like it is 80s ball and that daring people to beat you from 3 will win more often than not.

Fire Pop immediately.

[TrainOfThought5]

What do the Spurs work on in practice?

whatever the Spurs are working on in practice is not working in the games and they need to work on something else. As proof I offer their 4-21 record. What do you have?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

whatever the Spurs are working on in practice is not working in the games and they need to work on something else. As proof I offer their 4-21 record. What do you have?

Oh I know the backdoor logic that let's you fill in the gaps. I am in the same environment. I just don't pretend to know what the problem is.

Nice scapegoating though.

[Tyronn Lue]

Oh I know the backdoor logic that let's you fill in the gaps. I am in the same environment. I just don't pretend to know what the problem is.

Nice scapegoating though.
The problem is simple enough. There's an extreme lack of NBA level talent on an NBA team coupled with a HOF coach who is free to experiment for a season it seems. The "diamond in the rough" concept only works on diamonds, not on just any rock you find.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The problem is simple enough. There's an extreme lack of NBA level talent on an NBA team coupled with a HOF coach who is free to experiment for a season it seems. The "diamond in the rough" concept only works on diamonds, not on just any rock you find.

I think I should have said "why the problem" as opposed to "what." The knee jerk 'fire the manager' of fans seems more biting off of the nose to spite the face than usual.

[Tyronn Lue]

I think I should have said "why the problem" as opposed to "what." The knee jerk 'fire the manager' of fans seems more biting off of the nose to spite the face than usual.
I don't know if the Spurs have done all they can do to find and acquire talent to give Victor the best chance at success. It seems instead they have a group of guys trying to land an NBA contract as individuals instead of a team. You see this same thing on many young teams in the league, no cohesion or trust. The Spurs always brought in guys who were glue guys, some solid vets who knew the ropes and had team chemistry in mind. I don't see a leader on the floor now. I don't even know if these guys like each other off the court.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't know if the Spurs have done all they can do to find and acquire talent to give Victor the best chance at success. It seems instead they have a group of guys trying to land an NBA contract as individuals instead of a team. You see this same thing on many young teams in the league, no cohesion or trust. The Spurs always brought in guys who were glue guys, some solid vets who knew the ropes and had team chemistry in mind. I don't see a leader on the floor now. I don't even know if these guys like each other off the court.

In what sense? I agree that they are not maximizing this season. I never got the notion that they were aiming to contend for anything this season. We are low information here as well.

Skepticism makes a whole lot of sense but this board is full of white knights certain they know the solution. Humans are hilarious.

[Tyronn Lue]

In what sense? I agree that they are not maximizing this season. I never got the notion that they were aiming to contend for anything this season. We are low information here as well.

Skepticism makes a whole lot of sense but this board is full of white knights certain they know the solution. Humans are hilarious.
It's a sports forum for fans of the team. What did you expect?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Also Vassell, Collins, and Johnson all have their contracts. Sochan is the one that is sacrificing. I don't see his issue as selfishness.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's a sports forum for fans of the team. What did you expect?

To be entertained by it and I have been.

[sananspursfan21]

It’s amazing how every team has a franchise day in 3 pointers made against our guys…

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I would be curious to know what what our rate of transition threes per games is compared to the rest of the league.

[Tyronn Lue]

I would be curious to know what what our rate of transition threes per games is compared to the rest of the league.
It seems by design. Pop has to know these guys will get murdered against a set defense. I cannot believe he green lights these otherwise.

[pad300]

To be entertained by it and I have been.

I take it you have a masochist streak?

[KobesAchilles]

Pop took some gambles and none of them panned out. I really think this team is just stupid. They have the greatest defensive coach of all time and 5 years in and KJ still can't play defense. I give Sochan a pass because he had to learn a new defensive scheme. But we are just dumb as a team. It takes 7-8 years now to develop players. In the old days it took 3-4 years. Look around the league and you will see stupidity everywhere.

[spurraider21]

3. Defend the three point line
Defend it to a fault. Giving up 20 dunks in the paint is better than giving up 14 three pointers. Don't double, don't sag, don't leave your man if he's at the perimeter. You have the best shot blocker in the league down in the paint. He doesn't need your help. Let teams take their chances. No open jumpers.
all offseason we heard the players rave about how they can be more aggressive on defense out on the perimeter knowing they have wemby behind them, but now act like they have matt bonner anchoring the defense and keep collapsing :lol

[spurraider21]

It's funny because this is such basic level strategy for the modern NBA but it's 100% true. Pop is coaching like it's 2007 and the scheme is to make the opposing team bet them from 3, which every single team does basically every night :lol
:pop: they just made shots and we didnt, its as simple as that :pop:

[spurraider21]

What do the Spurs work on in practice?
not much, evidently

[Tyronn Lue]

:pop: they just made shots and we didnt, its as simple as that :pop:
:lol he literally said that

[spurraider21]

its almost 2024 ffs

https://i.gyazo.com/88b984612633130cef2b8719cde47084.jpg

for whoever was wondering, sochan's man, brandon ingram, received the pass and made a wide open 3

[itzsoweezee]

I think there is some kind of scheme they are trying to run that involves dropping a defender to help around the rim and then rotating, but they’re just really bad at executing it. Maybe Pop figures eventually they’ll figure it out, or maybe they just have the wrong players to execute it.

Seems like they’d want to change up the scheme now that wemby is being stationed in the paint on defense. Why not take advantage of the one area where the Spurs have an advantage on defense?

[Extra Stout]

Seems like they’d want to change up the scheme now that wemby is being stationed in the paint on defense. Why not take advantage of the one area where the Spurs have an advantage on defense?
I don’t know. I thought, though, that modern defenses had sort of a dual focus around the rim and also the 3-point line, and tried to force offenses to take midrange shots. It doesn’t look like the Spurs try to do that. So either Pop is stuck playing 2010-style defense, or he has them playing a flawed scheme on purpose, or they are trying to play correct defense but are just terrible at it.

None of those reflect well on the coaching. The first means the game has passed him by, the second means he is actively teaching players wrong things and ruining their minds, and the third means his coaching is a complete failure.

[james evans]

I've seen nearly a dozen games so far where the Spurs keep leaving teams open until someone finally gets hot and then the floodgates open. Many times, it's how those double digit leads evaporate. A team is cold but they keep getting uncontested looks until they can zero in.
I've seen all the games this season. Every last one of them. I normally average about 70 games per season, but I'm determined to watch them all this year(and my wife hates it). This team is terrible. But this is what Pop wants. He wants to lock in average players hoping to turn them into superstars, but that's not going to work with the guys he's choosing. He knows a superstar isn't going to put up with his bullshit. He saw what happened with Webber and Don Nelson after Webber won ROY. If Wemby requests a trade this summer, i wouldn't fault him one bit.

[KobesAchilles]

Some people would rather win 35 games, get the 10th pick and whine that we don't have a NBA roster instead of tank for 2 more seasons, get 2 more top 5 picks and be set for the next decade.

[Obstructed_View]

It's funny because this is such basic level strategy for the modern NBA but it's 100% true. Pop is coaching like it's 2007 and the scheme is to make the opposing team bet them from 3, which every single team does basically every night :lol
In 2007 the Spurs rabidly defended the three point line. That might have been a strategy in the early 90s though. Rudy Tomjianovich killed that defensive strategy when he created the inside out game, which Pop rode to three titles.

[Obstructed_View]

I've seen all the games this season. Every last one of them. I normally average about 70 games per season, but I'm determined to watch them all this year(and my wife hates it). This team is terrible. But this is what Pop wants. He wants to lock in average players hoping to turn them into superstars, but that's not going to work with the guys he's choosing. He knows a superstar isn't going to put up with his bullshit. He saw what happened with Webber and Don Nelson after Webber won ROY. If Wemby requests a trade this summer, i wouldn't fault him one bit.

I'm of the opinion that Pop is taking good players and making them look terrible with bad coaching, bad game planning and bad decision making. The Spurs have five fucking guys in the paint giving up historic numbers of three pointers and everyone blames Jeremy Sochan for bringing the ball past half court.

[CorrectCrusader]

all offseason we heard the players rave about how they can be more aggressive on defense out on the perimeter knowing they have wemby behind them, but now act like they have matt bonner anchoring the defense and keep collapsing :lol

I watched like 30 games last season and didn't see nearly this bad of closing out when Poeltl was anchoring. Wtf is their problem?

[Obstructed_View]

It’s amazing how every team has a franchise day in 3 pointers made against our guys…
The opposite was true when the Spurs got back on D and defended the three point line. Teams just happened to have the worst shooting night of the season against San Antonio.

[CorrectCrusader]

Some people would rather win 35 games, get the 10th pick and whine that we don't have a NBA roster instead of tank for 2 more seasons, get 2 more top 5 picks and be set for the next decade.

I'm perfectly fine with tanking but not when it looks like we're not tanking and that we're just terrible. That's not good.

[itzsoweezee]

Some people would rather win 35 games, get the 10th pick and whine that we don't have a NBA roster instead of tank for 2 more seasons, get 2 more top 5 picks and be set for the next decade.

Hate to break it to you, but the spurs have no shot of missing out on the lottery or battling for the play-in. They’re going to be one of the bottom three teams no matter what. Why not try to play competently and win a few games? There’s no extra prize for being the worst team in NBA history, which they are currently on track for

[Obstructed_View]

its almost 2024 ffs

https://i.gyazo.com/88b984612633130cef2b8719cde47084.jpg

for whoever was wondering, sochan's man, brandon ingram, received the pass and made a wide open 3
That picture gives me an ulcer. Like watching Matt Bonner chase the ball around the court or watching Richard Jefferson play power forward.

[CorrectCrusader]

That picture gives me an ulcer. Like watching Matt Bonner chase the ball around the court or watching Richard Jefferson play power forward.

Seriously why are they down there? Neither Zion or Val is scoring on Vic. Val is sealed off well by Vassell.

[KobesAchilles]

Hate to break it to you, but the spurs have no shot of missing out on the lottery or battling for the play-in. They’re going to be one of the bottom three teams no matter what. Why not try to play competently and win a few games? There’s no extra prize for being the worst team in NBA history, which they are currently on track for
Detroit, Washington, Charlotte, Portland and one Memphis Ja injury still exist. We could be outta the bottom 3 easy

[Obstructed_View]

Seriously why are they down there? Neither Zion or Val is scoring on Vic. Val is sealed off well by Vassell.
I understand the position of Devin, though I have no faith in his ability to box out, and I wonder why he's looking where he is. What those other three think they can do to help on defense I will never know. :bang

[itzsoweezee]

Detroit, Washington, Charlotte, Portland and one Memphis Ja injury still exist. We could be outta the bottom 3 easy

If that scenario could possibly happen, you take a player out of service late in the season. The spurs have done it before, even just last year. What you don’t do is sabotage the season in November and December.

Being designated the worst team in league history has no upside. Being a laughing stock will not pay off later. Taking extreme measures to ensure a top three pick in a draft in which no one can agree who the top three players are makes no sense. That is not what is happening here. This is just incompetence.

[KobesAchilles]

If that scenario could possibly happen, you take a player out of service late in the season. The spurs have done it before, even just last year. What you don’t do is sabotage the season in November and December.

Being designated the worst team in league history has no upside. Being a laughing stock will not pay off later. Taking extreme measures to ensure a top three pick in a draft in which no one can agree who the top three players are makes no sense. That is not what is happening here. This is just incompetence.
Personally, I believe that the whole team needs to revolve around Wemby. He plays 28 minutes a game and he just gets the ball every possession and we run sets for him, and feed him as much as possible. Idgaf about anybody else's potential or experiments, bc half the roster is gone anyways. Anytime a player misses a wide open Wemby they are benched.

[dbestpro]

The points fans bring up are the questions reporters should ask Pop. No more free passes.

[james evans]

Some people would rather win 35 games, get the 10th pick and whine that we don't have a NBA roster instead of tank for 2 more seasons, get 2 more top 5 picks and be set for the next decade.
there is no guarantee we're getting a top pick in the drafts haha. No team loses for 6 years straight purposely to build in a draft in which they aren't guaranteed the top pick.

[callo1]

Losing Chip England is showing more this year than last.

[Obstructed_View]

Losing Chip England is showing more this year than last.
Jeremy Sochan came in this year with a more improved three point shot than any player I can think of. He got benched because Spurfan is mad that he isn't Chris Paul.

[rankingtear]

I don’t know. I thought, though, that modern defenses had sort of a dual focus around the rim and also the 3-point line, and tried to force offenses to take midrange shots. It doesn’t look like the Spurs try to do that. So either Pop is stuck playing 2010-style defense, or he has them playing a flawed scheme on purpose, or they are trying to play correct defense but are just terrible at it.

None of those reflect well on the coaching. The first means the game has passed him by, the second means he is actively teaching players wrong things and ruining their minds, and the third means his coaching is a complete failure.

Rim first, then corner 3, then above the break 3.

[rankingtear]

Accepting this as a rule, what does a guard cheating down 8 feet toward the paint accomplish? They aren't blocking the shot. They aren't even challenging the shot. They could theoretically get a deflection or a steal, but usually two of the three guys cheating down aren't even in reach of the ball.

If allowing teams to shoot undefended three pointers were an effective way to limit rim attempts, everyone would be succeeding with the Spurs' strategy, including the Spurs.

IND limits the most wide open 3 though and they are the new candidate for worst defense in NBA history.

[Chomag]

12 Minutes Ago
Tanking is so stupid because there is no player in this upcoming draft that is going to help this team. There are some decent potential roll players or potential borderline all-stars but you don't tank for that. Having said that I still don't believe that they are tanking, it's just the coaching has realy been that bad.

[Chomag]

I forgot to mention that there is only so much a top tier competitive player like Wemby will take and become disgruntled, I'll hate it but I wouldn't blame Wemby one bit if he wants out some time down the line.

Sadly ,I think there are some sniffers here that would choose Pop over Wemby.

[james evans]

I forgot to mention that there is only so much a top tier competitive player like Wemby will take and become disgruntled, I'll hate it but I wouldn't blame Wemby one bit if he wants out some time down the line.

Sadly ,I think there are some sniffers here that would choose Pop over Wemby.
When everyone was shitting on Leonard(and it's their right), they were praising Murray. I said, "Don't blame him when he wants out too". Now look at it years later. There is a common denominator in all of this.

[spurraider21]

Jeremy Sochan came in this year with a more improved three point shot than any player I can think of. He got benched because Spurfan is mad that he isn't Chris Paul.
lol wut. He still shoots like a catapult and his % is already regressing toward the mean

And lmao thinking pop ended the point guard trainwreck experiment because fans were mad

[Extra Stout]

lol wut. He still shoots like a catapult and his % is already regressing toward the mean

And lmao thinking pop ended the point guard trainwreck experiment because fans were mad
Sochan still has that hitch in his shooting motion that takes the legs out of the shot. I remember seeing that in a video of him practicing free throws in the offseason and was told “tHaTs On PuRpOsE iTs HoW u LeArN tO sHoOt.”

[Obstructed_View]

lol wut. He still shoots like a catapult and his % is already regressing toward the mean

And lmao thinking pop ended the point guard trainwreck experiment because fans were mad

Lol, his regressing to the mean coincidentally started after he was benched.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I just hope that they try Sochan at point again later. I want to watch the local Naismith Society melt down again.

[spurraider21]

Lol, his regressing to the mean coincidentally started after he was benched.
he has come off the bench exactly one time this season

[Sugus]

I just hope that they try Sochan at point again later. I want to watch the local Naismith Society melt down again.

I'm hoping for the same thing (and for kind of the same reasons :lol).

He's been thrown to the waters, he's drowned and swam alright. Now a quieter period, and then another prove-it stint, maybe after the ASB. See what he's picked up and what hasn't stuck, after he's been in a more comfortable environment.

The "pissing people off" is merely a bonus

[TrainOfThought5]

I watched like 30 games last season and didn't see nearly this bad of closing out when Poeltl was anchoring. Wtf is their problem?

this is the real mystery to me and it needs to be discussed more.

[Extra Stout]

this is the real mystery to me and it needs to be discussed more.
Maybe the objective, besides losing, is to keep Victor out of foul trouble.

[paperboy77]

The Spurs have taken the youngest team in the NBA, made them a year older and more experienced, added a generational-talent seven footer and...gotten worse than they were last season.

What a year.

I guess everyone is ready for another lottery pick, so why rock the boat? Because that boat will he in Seattle in five years or Victor will take his talents to anywhere but South Texas.

How to salvage the season? Easy. This assumes someone tells the Spurs to stop freezing out the best player on the team. Doesn't matter who plays point guard. Doesn't matter who starts. If the Spurs do these things they will find themselves with a chance to win nearly every game.

1. Draw fouls
The Spurs lead the league in pump fakes and acrobatic moves under the basket that rim out. They need to be told to stop avoiding contact. Go up strong. Go into defenders and get whistles. Go for dunks.

2. Sprint back on defense
Every possession somebody goes for a steal in the backcourt or pesters the dribbler. Dozens of times nobody picks up the man with the ball on the break. The Spurs need to get into their court and get set up early. NBA basketball is all about finding a soft spot in the defense. Eliminate that one.

3. Defend the three point line
Defend it to a fault. Giving up 20 dunks in the paint is better than giving up 14 three pointers. Don't double, don't sag, don't leave your man if he's at the perimeter. You have the best shot blocker in the league down in the paint. He doesn't need your help. Let teams take their chances. No open jumpers.

Even if you only do #3 it would bring the wins way up.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

he has come off the bench exactly one time this season

So since then. . . .

[NASpurs]

So who are the Spurs tanking for in this supposedly weak draft class? :lol

I just think this team sucks ass and people are trying to justify the decisions of the front office.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm hoping for the same thing (and for kind of the same reasons :lol).

He's been thrown to the waters, he's drowned and swam alright. Now a quieter period, and then another prove-it stint, maybe after the ASB. See what he's picked up and what hasn't stuck, after he's been in a more comfortable environment.

The "pissing people off" is merely a bonus

With how they are using Sidy in Austin it is obvious what the ideal they are looking for is. They have a quarter season worth of NBA film to develop off of. The writing is more or less on the wall for another stretch down the road.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So who are the Spurs tanking for in this supposedly weak draft class? :lol

I just think this team sucks ass and people are trying to justify the decisions of the front office.

I don't think they are tanking or trying to win. I think they are trying to develop players.

[spurraider21]

So since then. . . .
if the act of coming off the bench for one game and then resuming a starting role is enough to completely throw off your 3pt shot then you arent built for the nba

i think its more likely that sochan still having the same hitch in his catapult shooting motion didnt magically become a high end 3pt shooter and we simply had an insufficient sample size

[FuzzyLumpkins]

if the act of coming off the bench for one game and then resuming a starting role is enough to completely throw off your 3pt shot then you arent built for the nba

i think its more likely that sochan still having the same hitch in his catapult shooting motion didnt magically become a high end 3pt shooter and we simply had an insufficient sample size

How about changing position and role? Thanks for your input on his shooting motion. Your incredulity is noted.

[spurraider21]

How about changing position and role? Thanks for your input on his shooting motion. Your incredulity is noted.
im not talking about how well he is playing relative to roles. im talking about his ability to shoot the ball from beyond the arc. if you want to argue that the average quality of shot has dropped in his time as a PF compared to PG, i'd welcome some data or argument for it

[FuzzyLumpkins]

im not talking about how well he is playing relative to roles. im talking about his ability to shoot the ball from beyond the arc. if you want to argue that the average quality of shot has dropped in his time as a PF compared to PG, i'd welcome some data or argument for it

Of course you are not. You apparently predicted that his shooting motion would doom him to failure and are intent on dying on that cross.

What you are not considering is how a PG gets his shots and from where versus how a PF does it. Not to mention the issue the change must've had on things for the entire team.

Have we seen similar poor shooting performances from other players on the team?

But hey you have fun playing shot doctor from your desk.

[Extra Stout]

im not talking about how well he is playing relative to roles. im talking about his ability to shoot the ball from beyond the arc. if you want to argue that the average quality of shot has dropped in his time as a PF compared to PG, i'd welcome some data or argument for it
He still gets the wide-open shots where defenders give him all the time in the world to bend his legs, bolt up straight like he received an electric shock, and fling a line drive with his arms that caroms off the backboard.

[spurraider21]

Of course you are not. You apparently predicted that his shooting motion would doom him to failure and are intent on dying on that cross.

What you are not considering is how a PG gets his shots and from where versus how a PF does it. Not to mention the issue the change must've had on things for the entire team.

Have we seen similar poor shooting performances from other players on the team?

But hey you have fun playing shot doctor from your desk.
im open to him improving his shot. i think its unlikely that he'd find sustained shooting success with the form he had last year and still has. as a spurs fan, id be glad if he proved me wrong. i just dont see it. just like id be thrilled if he became a great point guard, i just dont see it happening

the only other spur shooting it uncharacteristically poorly has been zach collins. when comparing last year to this year, as his % has dropped from 37.4% to 28.6% (note that last year was collins' career high 3pt% and earlier in his career shot closer to 33%)

branham - 30.2% to 30.9%
vassell - 38.7% to 37.1%
tre jones - 28.5% to 26.7%
mcdermott - 41.3% to 45.5%
osman - 37.2% to 38%
keldon - 32.9% to 36%

everyone is more or less in line with where they shot last year, and near their career averages

so no, i wasnt buying that sochan suddenly went from a 24.6% shooter to a 43% shooter without seeing him fix his broken form. simplest explanation is that we were dealing with a small sample size and his early % was anomalous

[FuzzyLumpkins]

im open to him improving his shot. i think its unlikely that he'd find sustained shooting success with the form he had last year and still has. as a spurs fan, id be glad if he proved me wrong. i just dont see it. just like id be thrilled if he became a great point guard, i just dont see it happening

the only other spur shooting it uncharacteristically poorly has been zach collins. when comparing last year to this year, as his % has dropped from 37.4% to 28.6% (note that last year was collins' career high 3pt% and earlier in his career shot closer to 33%)

branham - 30.2% to 30.9%
vassell - 38.7% to 37.1%
tre jones - 28.5% to 26.7%
mcdermott - 41.3% to 45.5%
osman - 37.2% to 38%
keldon - 32.9% to 36%

everyone is more or less in line with where they shot last year, and near their career averages

so no, i wasnt buying that sochan suddenly went from a 24.6% shooter to a 43% shooter without seeing him fix his broken form. simplest explanation is that we were dealing with a small sample size and his early % was anomalous


We are talking about performance since he was benched. I guess you are hoping this new angle will work better?

That first line is obviously not true. Youre arguing against him shooting better.

[Obstructed_View]

he has come off the bench exactly one time this season
Yep, and he's been terrible ever since.

[spurraider21]

We are talking about performance since he was benched. I guess you are hoping this new angle will work better?
oh. that. as i already said, if him coming off the bench for one game and then promptly being returned to the starting lineup is enough to break his jump shot then imo he has no shot as surviving the nba. i think its more plausible we were dealing with an outlier % based on sample size

whats more likely. guy who hit less than 30% of his 3's in college and less than 30% of his 3's in his rookie season suddenly becoming a 40+ % 3 point shooter in his sophomore year despite keeping the same shooting form... but then that accuracy disappears because he plays on game off the bench and doesnt come back when he resumes starting immediately thereafter? or

subpar shooter had a hot start to the season and has come back down to earth


That first line is obviously not true. Youre arguing against him shooting better.
its absolutely true. im open to the idea of sochan getting a better jump shot. im not rooting against him improving. i dont think its impossible for him to do so. i just havent seen him do it.

[TimmyBuckets]

Pop needs to take the mic again so OP can have another aneurysm.

[CorrectCrusader]

I never get why a simple drive to the basket from the opposing team causes this team to collapse like a dying star and leave 3 point shooters open time after time especially when you have Wemby in the middle. Every fucking team becomes a collective Steph Curry against us.

fpbp

[SouthernFryd]

12 Minutes Ago
Tanking is so stupid because there is no player in this upcoming draft that is going to help this team. There are some decent potential roll players or potential borderline all-stars but you don't tank for that. Having said that I still don't believe that they are tanking, it's just the coaching has realy been that bad.

This.

[Obstructed_View]

Pop needs to take the mic again so OP can have another aneurysm.

Pop was an idiot long before he picked up the mike, scro. I gave up losing my temper with his stupid ass about 15 years ago. :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

oh. that. as i already said, if him coming off the bench for one game and then promptly being returned to the starting lineup is enough to break his jump shot then imo he has no shot as surviving the nba. i think its more plausible we were dealing with an outlier % based on sample size

whats more likely. guy who hit less than 30% of his 3's in college and less than 30% of his 3's in his rookie season suddenly becoming a 40+ % 3 point shooter in his sophomore year despite keeping the same shooting form... but then that accuracy disappears because he plays on game off the bench and doesnt come back when he resumes starting immediately thereafter? or

subpar shooter had a hot start to the season and has come back down to earth


its absolutely true. im open to the idea of sochan getting a better jump shot. im not rooting against him improving. i dont think its impossible for him to do so. i just havent seen him do it.

And as I said before given how a PG and a PF are wildly different positions who get their shots in similarly different ways absolutely it should effect his shooting. Also there is the whole team which has been shooting like dog shit over that span.

You like to just completely ignore inconvenient arguments and reassert your original arguments. Ho does that work for you in court?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And the entire argument that poor shooters are unlikely to improve ignore that he has pretty famously improved his free throw shooting concurrently.

[spurraider21]

And the entire argument that poor shooters are unlikely to improve ignore that he has pretty famously improved his free throw shooting concurrently.
I never said poor shooters are or aren’t likely to improve. It’s player specific. Scottie Barnes refused to shoot much like Ben Simmons his first two years and this year is hitting a high percentage on good volume. Kawhi improved his shooting drastically. Dejounte improved his midrange shooting drastically.

Sochan just looks to have the same broken shooting form he did last year when he was a poor shooter

[spurraider21]

And as I said before given how a PG and a PF are wildly different positions who get their shots in similarly different ways absolutely it should effect his shooting. Also there is the whole team which has been shooting like dog shit over that span.

You like to just completely ignore inconvenient arguments and reassert your original arguments. Ho does that work for you in court?
can you elaborate how the shot quality from 3 is worse from playing PF than playing PG

you never even made the argument so there is nothing to refute

why does the rest of the teams shooting matter as it relates to Sochan?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I never said poor shooters are or aren’t likely to improve. It’s player specific. Scottie Barnes refused to shoot much like Ben Simmons his first two years and this year is hitting a high percentage on good volume. Kawhi improved his shooting drastically. Dejounte improved his midrange shooting drastically.

Sochan just looks to have the same broken shooting form he did last year when he was a poor shooter

And yet performance changed in multiple respects. I am sorry for your cognitive dissonance but I would posit that you do not know as much about shooting as you think you do.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

why does the rest of the teams shooting matter as it relates to Sochan?

So whole team's performance tanks and yet you do not want to consider it. This gets to the heart of your blinders regarding inconvenient arguments.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

can you elaborate how the shot quality from 3 is worse from playing PF than playing PG

It is not worse it is different.

If you want a sense there is a lot of footage out there of Ice talking about moving from forward to guard. In a general sense, front court players get the ball in the front court whereas back court players get it in the back court. As a PG he was the primary ballhandler in general and specifically pnr sets. No instead of looking to step into hs shot he is more to be pick and pop.

There are millions of details but I think it is funny that you cannot fathom this and you are judging shot mechnics.

[spurraider21]

It is not worse it is different.

If you want a sense there is a lot of footage out there of Ice talking about moving from forward to guard. In a general sense, front court players get the ball in the front court whereas back court players get it in the back court. As a PG he was the primary ballhandler in general and specifically pnr sets. No instead of looking to step into hs shot he is more to be pick and pop.

There are millions of details but I think it is funny that you cannot fathom this and you are judging shot mechnics.
do you have any data that demonstrates that sochan's 3PA have come from different areas of the court depending on what position he was starting at?

the thing is, you arent even making an argument, because you're not giving anything rebuttable or falsifiable

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you never even made the argument so there is nothing to refute

why does the rest of the teams shooting matter as it relates to Sochan?


Of course you are not. You apparently predicted that his shooting motion would doom him to failure and are intent on dying on that cross.

What you are not considering is how a PG gets his shots and from where versus how a PF does it. Not to mention the issue the change must've had on things for the entire team.

Have we seen similar poor shooting performances from other players on the team?

But hey you have fun playing shot doctor from your desk.

Yes, I did secretariat. The bolded is me making the same arguments yesterday. You had the similar blinders thing going on then, secretariat.

[spurraider21]

So whole team's performance tanks and yet you do not want to consider it. This gets to the heart of your blinders regarding inconvenient arguments.
"tanks"

the team is shooting 32.6% from 3 in the games since sochan was benched. they are at 34.3% for the season :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

do you have any data that demonstrates that sochan's 3PA have come from different areas of the court depending on what position he was starting at?

the thing is, you arent even making an argument, because you're not giving anything rebuttable or falsifiable

:lol using incredulity to argue against different positions PG getting his shot in different places and ways than a PF.

I am okay with resting with that, Counselor.

[spurraider21]

Yes, I did secretariat. The bolded is me making the same arguments yesterday. You had the similar blinders thing going on then, secretariat.
the bolded isnt an argument. i

"how a PG gets his shots and from where versus how a PF does it"

have you demonstrated that sochan's 3PA have come in different ways or in different spots pre and post benching? until you do, you arent really making an argument.

as for the team shooting performance, i addressed that in the post above. the team's 3PT% isnt much different at all in the last 8 or so games since the benching. and to the extent that it is marginally lower, sochan's dreadful shooting accounts for a good amount of that :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the bolded isnt an argument. i

"how a PG gets his shots and from where versus how a PF does it"

have you demonstrated that sochan's 3PA have come in different ways or in different spots pre and post benching? until you do, you arent really making an argument.

as for the team shooting performance, i addressed that in the post above. the team's 3PT% isnt much different at all in the last 8 or so games since the benching. and to the extent that it is marginally lower, sochan's dreadful shooting accounts for a good amount of that :lol

Then by your standard you are not making arguments either.

[spurraider21]

:lol using incredulity to argue against different positions PG getting his shot in different places and ways than a PF.

I am okay with resting with that, Counselor.
husband accused of murdering his wife

husband's defense: but generally speaking, husbands dont murder their wives. the defense rests

[spurraider21]

Then by your standard you are not making arguments either.
sure i am. my argument is we saw a guy have a hot start to a season on a small sample size. im ok letting more time pass to see if in fact his 40+% shooting to start the season coming off consecutive years shooting sub 30% was in fact signs of a dramatic improvement or just an outlier.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

husband accused of murdering his wife

husband's defense: but generally speaking, husbands dont murder their wives. the defense rests

Prosecution: I don't believe he couldn't have not murdered his wife. Prosecution rests.

Thanks for presumption btw, couselor.

[spurraider21]

Prosecution: I don't believe he couldn't have not murdered his wife. Prosecution rests.

Thanks for presumption btw, couselor.
you're right. sochan kept the same shooting form but became mcdermott overnight as long as he was listed as a PG

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you're right. sochan kept the same shooting form but became mcdermott overnight as long as he was listed as a PG

and again I posit you do not know as much as you think you know about shooting. I get presumption this is awesome.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And further the shooting improvement he had the first quarter of the season was after an offseason. An offseason where he spend the entire time learning to be a PG.

Now he is back at PF midseason. That occurrence which correlates with his shooting performance drop absolutely could be cause.

[spurraider21]

"tanks"

the team is shooting 32.6% from 3 in the games since sochan was benched. they are at 34.3% for the season :lol
did the match. if you exclude sochan, the rest of the team has shot 34.1% from 3 in the games since sochan was benched. so its not like the team is in some general shooting slump since the change. its just him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

did the match. if you exclude sochan, the rest of the team has shot 34.1% from 3 in the games since sochan was benched. so its not like the team is in some general shooting slump since the change. its just him.

Okay. That is one of my arguments and seeing that no other argument depended on it, I accept your argument and still maintain my position.

[spurraider21]

Okay. That is one of my arguments and seeing that no other argument depended on it, I accept your argument and still maintain my position.
it shows that you are just throwing shit around

but what about the rest of the team's non-existent shooting slump?

but what about the change in shot type/quality that i cant demonstrate?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are there any examples of a player moving from PG to PF midseason in NBA history?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

it shows that you are just throwing shit around

but what about the rest of the team's non-existent shooting slump?

but what about the change in shot type/quality that i cant demonstrate?

Yeah I figured I should restate my argument.

You are not a shot expert in any way shape or form. Your incredulity in how he could have improved given what you see in his shot is worth nothing.

Meanwhile we have an event where he moved from PG to PF which correlates with his slump. And I did discuss the dynamics of that and as usual you just ignored the inconvenient argument.

[itzsoweezee]

I don't think they are tanking or trying to win. I think they are trying to develop players.

That’s the problem — they’re not really developing anyone. They seem to be experimenting, but the experiment is nonsensce.

Pop’s previous success came under circumstances every different than the ones the spurs are currently facing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That’s the problem — they’re not really developing anyone. They seem to be experimenting, but the experiment is nonsensce.

Pop’s previous success came under circumstances every different than the ones the spurs are currently facing.

I feel that the defense has been improving. The offense is dog shit but the rotations are more often on time and only one person, players doing a better job playing through contact, and recognizing when to switch. The defensive rebounding game is progressing.

[K...]

no one felt OP blew this thread by promising a new big 3 but coming back with essentially 3 bullet points summarized as "hustle, hustle, hustle" this is why i don't take the not sniff sniff group serious. it's whine whine whine, why does tanking look bad, why can't we win without HOF talents!


Let the draft and free agency play out. Last year we had major minutes with vets to stabilize the game. This year vets play a back seat to young talent. it is what is.

[itzsoweezee]

I feel that the defense has been improving. The offense is dog shit but the rotations are more often on time and only one person, players doing a better job playing through contact, and recognizing when to switch. The defensive rebounding game is progressing.

I think most of the modestly improved defense of late is attributable to Collins being moved to the bench and a reduction in his minutes.

[Obstructed_View]

no one felt OP blew this thread by promising a new big 3 but coming back with essentially 3 bullet points summarized as "hustle, hustle, hustle" this is why i don't take the not sniff sniff group serious. it's whine whine whine, why does tanking look bad, why can't we win without HOF talents!


Let the draft and free agency play out. Last year we had major minutes with vets to stabilize the game. This year vets play a back seat to young talent. it is what is.
RIF

Guarding the three point line requires hustle? Drawing fouls instead of avoiding contact isn't a hustle issue either.

The Spurs have at least one hall of famer on the roster right now. They're worse than they were last year.

[MultiTroll]

3. Defend the three point line
Defend it to a fault. Giving up 20 dunks in the paint is better than giving up 14 three pointers. Don't double, don't sag, don't leave your man if he's at the perimeter. You have the best shot blocker in the league down in the paint. He doesn't need your help. Let teams take their chances. No open jumpers.
Facepalm it's chronic.
Just watched about 1/2 the Jazz game.

FFS it's still chronic.

[PICK-N-ROLL]

It truly cannot be Pops fault if someone made a song about him :lmao

https://youtu.be/kXgEoQviIBw?si=9c0ojVqw2hC2Awo1

i know it’s old but it’s worth a laugh

[Bill_Brasky]

"We need to run the offense primarily through Wemby"

When are we gonna talk about the elephant in the room that Wemby sucks ass at dribbling the basketball and gets put off balance/ripped every single time he tries to attack? And also has no back to the basket game? Hard to run your offense through a player like that.

[TD 21]

^ It's tough for a big man to be a 1st option on a contender without being a back to the basket hub. Nowitzki was the only one who wasn't, but he was an elite shooter. Durant is like a half big because he has the frame of one, but he's really a perimeter player and is also an elite shooter.

Wembanyama doesn't have the frame to be the former archetype and obviously has a long ways to go to become the latter. Otherwise, he'll be evolutionary Robinson/Garnett/Davis, which will end up being thought of as a disappointment considering the James level hype.

[Seventyniner]

^ It's tough for a big man to be a 1st option on a contender without being a back to the basket hub. Nowitzki was the only one who wasn't, but he was an elite shooter. Durant is like a half big because he has the frame of one, but he's really a perimeter player and is also an elite shooter.

Wembanyama doesn't have the frame to be the former archetype and obviously has a long ways to go to become the latter. Otherwise, he'll be evolutionary Robinson/Garnett/Davis, which will end up being thought of as a disappointment considering the James level hype.

Wemby is going to expend so much energy on defense that a high-energy offense style, like lots of dribble drives, just won't work unless he doesn't play many minutes.

[Obstructed_View]

"We need to run the offense primarily through Wemby"

When are we gonna talk about the elephant in the room that Wemby sucks ass at dribbling the basketball and gets put off balance/ripped every single time he tries to attack? And also has no back to the basket game? Hard to run your offense through a player like that.
Except he doesn't. His handles were great in France, and were the same way early on. As time has gone on he does too much, so he dribbles up court and gets picked from behind or he keeps it too long and turns it over. He isn't a poor dribbler, he is just doing things that you shouldn't do against NBA defenders.

This is the same effect on his shooting, which is why his percentage has gone down. He does too much when he has the ball because he doesn't touch it enough. He's still a good shooter but he's taking low quality shots.

You're right about his in-the-paint game. He isn't a good post player, which is why I never wanted him as a 4 or 5 on offense.

[The Truth #6]

I think he takes bad shots because he probably feels he doesn't get the ball enough, but more importantly he isn't great at self creating, and for that reason it's hard to completely run the offense through him. Also why we need a creator/point guard.

[spurraider21]

he's not great at self creating yet, and many of the touches he gets are at disadvantageous positions where he is forced to do something

as chinook points out, he's also not great at making himself a target

but we also dont have anything resembling a table-setter to make things easier for him

easiest thing he can do right now is set better screens and emphasize making contact so he can free up his rolls. he also needs to slow down and stop trying to do so much. he should be able to take pretty simple shots, basic jump hooks, etc. he doesnt need to reinvent the wheel to get shots off near the basket

[MultiTroll]

he's not great at self creating yet, and many of the touches he gets are at disadvantageous positions where he is forced to do something

as chinook points out, he's also not great at making himself a target

but we also dont have anything resembling a table-setter to make things easier for him

easiest thing he can do right now is set better screens and emphasize making contact so he can free up his rolls. he also needs to slow down and stop trying to do so much. he should be able to take pretty simple shots, basic jump hooks, etc. he doesnt need to reinvent the wheel to get shots off near the basket
Exacerbating the problem Xs 10 is teamates are horrible at moving without ball, lead by incompetent offensive strategies.

I watched closesly as Wemby tried to work some stuff with Vassell vs the Jazz. Wemby looked very frustrated at Vassells lame efforts.

[Obstructed_View]

"We need to run the offense primarily through Wemby"

When are we gonna talk about the elephant in the room that Wemby sucks ass at dribbling the basketball and gets put off balance/ripped every single time he tries to attack? And also has no back to the basket game? Hard to run your offense through a player like that.

I know I replied to this already but I wanted to add something else.

I was and am one person calling for the offense to run through him, but I also said I want him to be the small forward because basically he sucks at getting position down low, he has no back to the basket game, as you pointed out, and his teammates can neither pass him the ball nor draw defenders to generate plays going toward the rim.

What Victor has done well through his career in France and early on here was generating offense from the perimeter. He can step into gaps, he can obviously shoot with very little space, and he doesn't typically get his pocket picked when facing up. He is a crafty and willing passer and has a huge basketball IQ that is going to waste.

[Bill_Brasky]

I mean yeah he was fine handling the ball in Eurpope but this isnt Europe. The players here are way faster and stronger. He clearly has trouble putting the ball on the floor. He literally fumbles the damn thing all the time because at this point he's so paranoid about getting stripped. He needs to learn that when he catches the ball, he needs to immediately go into his move, get a step on the guy guarding him(some extra strength training in the offseason will help this) and not allow time for defenders to come pick his pocket.

[Obstructed_View]

I mean yeah he was fine handling the ball in Eurpope but this isnt Europe. The players here are way faster and stronger. He clearly has trouble putting the ball on the floor. He literally fumbles the damn thing all the time because at this point he's so paranoid about getting stripped. He needs to learn that when he catches the ball, he needs to immediately go into his move, get a step on the guy guarding him(some extra strength training in the offseason will help this) and not allow time for defenders to come pick his pocket.
I saw him bring the ball up against Utah and he looked over his shoulder to see a guard coming up behind him, avoiding getting it poked out. That's clearly an improvement. Again, it's not that he can't dribble, and I think we agree on that. It's the positions he gets into, and as you mentioned, his thinking too much as a result. That is a coaching issue, and he is having to learn these things on his own.

[Pauleta14]

Amazing the definitive conclusions drawn by many about Wemby based on a small sample production handicaped by a horrible roster, no PG no veterans to help/teach

He's 19 yo ffs

[Bill_Brasky]

Amazing the definitive conclusions drawn by many about Wemby based on a small sample production handicaped by a horrible roster, no PG no veterans to help/teach

He's 19 yo ffs

I am not drawing conclusions. I am saying what things are at this point. At this point, he does not handle the ball well enough to successfully score on a consistent basis from the perimeter. It is what it is and i fully expect him to improve on it because he obviously does have ball handling skills. They just arent polished up yet.

And yes i fully understand that part of this issue is due to opposing defenses not being at all scared to swarm Wemby and leave our other guys wide open because they suck. With good teammates, Wemby will be a better playmaker because he will make good passes to open teammates who will actually hit the shot instead of bricking it. Then other teams will be more scared of doubling Wemby and selling out to stop him.

[Pauleta14]

I wasn't pointing u in particular but the fact that one can't draw definitive conclusions because of the absurd roster and use of Wemby.

Chet would look as "limited" if put in the same conditions

There's still imo a mystery about what the team is doing in pratctice or what they've been working on (or not) to help Wemby

It really looks like they've worked on nothing whitch is hard to beleive tbh