Does tanking ruin a team?

[Extra Stout]

I was thinking about the advanced metrics that show how obviously better the Spurs are when Wembanyama gets to play with Tre Jones. The Spurs, having an analytics department, likewise are aware of this, but choose rarely if ever to play them together, in favor of terrible experimental lineups.

So it’s pretty blatant tanking. My thought is that the players are not stupid, rather that they’re probably aware that Pop is not putting them in the best position to win. So my question is, how does that affect the players? Do they play less hard knowing that the coach and front office are more interested in what happens in the draft lottery than what happens night to night during the season? Do they figure, what’s the point in expending the effort on that defensive rotation knowing that Pop may just cut my minutes if I do to ensure losses?

And is it possible to just flip the switch under that same coach once the franchise decides it’s time to stop tanking? Can they ever take him seriously knowing that he sandbagged entire seasons? Can they trust what he says? Or is an eventual coaching change in a couple of years part of the process?

[BacktoBasics]

I think it depends on how the staff and organization sell it. You don’t sell the players a losing season and deliberate attempt to stifle their best efforts and selves.

You sell the big picture. The long game. Building organically and finding long term chemistry. The development of each player in areas that aren’t strengths and that selling out our cap freedom and draft capital for quick fixes isn’t in everyone’s best interest. Patience and letting things play out is the most prudent approach right now.

[MultiTroll]

Can they ever take him seriously knowing that he sandbagged entire seasons? Can they trust what he says?
Do they take him seriously now? :lol

"I'll retire when Tim Duncan retires."

"Excuse me for a second," Popovich said to the crowd. "Can we stop all the booing and let these guys play? Have a little class. That's not who we are. Knock off the booing."


"I think anybody that knows anything about sports -- you don't poke the bear," Popovich said.

[ElNono]

Ruin a team? No. Sours relationship with some players? Maybe.

[z0sa]

They’re professionals. Doesn’t mean they are company men who bleed silver and black. I think a lot of bad blood is already running under the surface quite honestly. The pressure on Wemby trickles down, and no one is or should blame Wemby for our current record. That leaves fingers to be pointed — if not overtly, surely some players are already thinking it.

[exstatic]

Doesn’t seem to have hurt the Thunder.

[KobesAchilles]

Only for the majority of the current roster. People say the Thunder or the 76ers but the got rid of most of their roster when they got good again. It won’t ruin VW or bench players. But losing 18 in a row, not playing proper positions, added pressure of always being blamed for losses, yeah that gets to young players… which is why they’ll be gone anyways

[CGD]

It probably can ruin certain players who are mentally weak, but that’s why you pay the ones you like and trade them to do right by them. Murray, White, and Keldon here soon.

This team will look so different in just 1 year much more 2 years. Keldon will be traded, Tre and Zach will probably move on after their deals or flipped, Wesley and the end of bench guys will be gone, Cedi/Doug/Graham gone. That’s like half the team right there.

I think Sochan and Branham will get to their second contracts, but I don’t think Malaki will be a long term fixture.

[Dex]

I wouldn't say it ruins a team, but it also isn't a foolproof strategy.

76ers took tanking to new heights and it still hasn't gotten them to the promised land. It took like 10 years to reach pretender status, and the only real asset they have left from "The Process" is Embiid.

Meanwhile, Detroit tried tanking and, well...23 straight losses speaks for itself.

In San Antonio's situation...they gutted the team for future assets and you have to say it worked because we got Wemby, but that wasn't expected to turn the team around overnight. This isn't a flash in the pan situation where you get a Tim Duncan and add him to a ready-built playoff team with a former MVP....they had to burn it down so they could start building on a new foundation.

I expected the team to be a bit better than it has shown so far, but not by much. 80% of these guys probably won't be with the Spurs in three years so only time will tell.

[NASpurs]

Doesn’t seem to have hurt the Thunder.

Probably because they have a competent GM and we don't.

[Dex]

Probably because they have a competent GM and we don't.

OKC is also on like year 4 from their tank.

We aren't even 1.5 years in yet.

Give it time, people.

[ginobilized]

I'd guess that the player's lucrative paychecks help soften the sting of losing. Rebuilding takes time, 3-4 years if done well.
The only player I really wonder about is Keldon. His body language and erratic play make me think that's just his personality or he is struggling with losing and/or his role.
Everyone else seems to be going along for the ride.

[John B]

We got Wemby didn’t we? And posed to add two more top 10 picks. The Thunder and Rockets are playing better after long-tanking. Yet the Pistons seem to be having difficulty righting the course. It depends on the coach and the management on how they use their high picks to build around, BPA or position, then signing vets to compliment and developing in GLeague affiliates. It’s a long process than compare to 10 years ago. Rookies are coming out 18, 19 year olds and most need developing. I think Pop has earned enough credibility to assure the players to buy in for the big picture. Spurs young players are getting the minutes than ever before, either with the Spurs or in Austin. It’s up to the players also to make the most of their minutes developing their games and learning from the experience. Kawhi, Dejounte, Derrick, Kyle, CoJo, Hill, not to mention Hofers TP and Manu. The Spurs have been very successful with these players to help sell Spurs development. So yup. It would depend both on the coach and management, and the players. But more on the management to draft the right players with strong characters to go through the long process unscathed and not easily frustrated. Wemby is very mature beyond his years and, in my opinion, has tremendous trust. I think that it helps that TP and Bobo were former Spurs and I’m sure have only good advice for him, to be patient and trust the process. I think it helps that Timmy and DRob are top players who played the same position. I think it helps that San Antonio is unlike Los Angeles or Madison Square Garden and the pressures that comes playing in the big market. All said, I think the odds are on the Spurs to make it good.

[CGD]

OKC is also on like year 4 from their tank.

We aren't even 1.5 years in yet.

Give it time, people.

Important point. What exactly has Presti won in the past 5 years other than the offseason People so eager to give him a pass because be looks like a Poindexter.

[Mal]

Tanking is not healthy. Does not matter if it's sitting guys or selling best players in order to put worst roster possible. In the long run, players would not be accustomed to play hard, every game, every possession.

[exstatic]

Important point. What exactly has Presti won in the past 5 years other than the offseason People so eager to give him a pass because be looks like a Poindexter.

They won 40 games last year, and are currently 2nd in the west. I’d call that progress, and the end of their tank.

[exstatic]

Tanking is not healthy. Does not matter if it's sitting guys or selling best players in order to put worst roster possible. In the long run, players would not be accustomed to play hard, every game, every possession.

That’s your opinion. It doesn’t seem to have hurt OKC to have two seasons of 20ish wins. They won 40 last year, and are currently 2 in the west standings.

[Extra Stout]

That’s your opinion. It doesn’t seem to have hurt OKC to have two seasons of 20ish wins. They won 40 last year, and are currently 2 in the west standings.
I think Daigneault doesn’t suffer the loss of credibility that Popovich does because of his youth and inexperience. He can plausibly say he was learning and growing along with the team. With Pop, it’s too obvious that he’s sandbagging.

And in the season they went 24-58 they showed tangible improvement, going from like a -11 net rating to about a -7. The Spurs remain historically bad even with Wembanyama.

I get how it makes sense, not just from the standpoint of the Spurs’ pick, but also with doing their best to make sure the Toronto pick conveys. However, I think that once the Spurs are ready to win again they’ll need to move on from Gregg Popovich. If they don’t, they won’t be able to turn it around because the players won’t take him seriously.

[Truckules]

OKC's 2 season tank is a bad comparison. For the 20-21 season, Shai was the top total scorer even though he only played 35 games. The rest of the roster was completely awful. The next highest scorer on the team was Darius Bazley. The season after that was the same. Shai played 56 games and Bazley was one of the top scorers. They turned it around as soon as they had Giddey and Jalen Williams and are now competing for a championship with Chet. OKC tanked via a bad roster and holding out their top player, not via bad lineups and development. They didn't have to sell their soul to tank.

That type of tank isn't viable anymore. The salary floor revenue penalty and the player participation policy that were introduced for 2023 have made it impossible to do that. You can't skimp on your roster anymore and you can't hold out players either. So the Spurs have to tank via bad lineups and development because that's the only way to tank anymore. However, the OKC tank does show that if you acquire the right players, the tank can work quickly.

[CorrectCrusader]

They’re professionals. Doesn’t mean they are company men who bleed silver and black. I think a lot of bad blood is already running under the surface quite honestly. The pressure on Wemby trickles down, and no one is or should blame Wemby for our current record. That leaves fingers to be pointed — if not overtly, surely some players are already thinking it.

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

[rascal]

OKC's 2 season tank is a bad comparison. For the 20-21 season, Shai was the top total scorer even though he only played 35 games. The rest of the roster was completely awful. The next highest scorer on the team was Darius Bazley. The season after that was the same. Shai played 56 games and Bazley was one of the top scorers. They turned it around as soon as they had Giddey and Jalen Williams and are now competing for a championship with Chet. OKC tanked via a bad roster and holding out their top player, not via bad lineups and development. They didn't have to sell their soul to tank.

That type of tank isn't viable anymore. The salary floor revenue penalty and the player participation policy that were introduced for 2023 have made it impossible to do that. You can't skimp on your roster anymore and you can't hold out players either. So the Spurs have to tank via bad lineups and development because that's the only way to tank anymore. However, the OKC tank does show that if you acquire the right players, the tank can work quickly.

Portland held out players last year.

[rascal]

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

That's on the players if they think they aren't good enough.

Players know all the time they have to play well because they can lose their position on the team if they don't.

[John B]

That's on the players if they think they aren't good enough.

Players know all the time they have to play well because they can lose their position on the team if they don't.

and audition for other teams if ever they are moved

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm not sure Pop's keeping Tre from playing with Wemby because he's tanking games. I think the horrible losses are the consequence of a lack of getting these guys prepared to compete.

I think it's Pop's stubbornness, and him thinking the 1st unit can spread the floor without Tre, and that Tre strengthens the bench. It might take him another 20 or 30 games to see that the two of them might work better on the same unit.

The roster overall is made for a tank, but I think the horrible in-game performances are a result of lack of talent and uninspired coaching right now, not a direct intention to tank. I'm not impressed by the coaching at all this year, and I can't buy into the theory that this is all just part of the intentional tank. Wasting Wemby's rookie year and not developing the sh!tty players around him at every opportunity to learn to pass him the ball is just not smart. Since we suck anyway, the Spurs could spend an entire game working on entry passes to Wemby. We lose by 40, who cares? At least we're working on something that matters in the long run. Having these guys run around with zero structure or accountability, like they're playing in the Rec League at the YMCA is just dumb. No offense to Pop because he's always going to be the GOAT of NBA coaches in my mind.

When this team wants to get up for an opponent they play reasonably well. When they don't give a sh!t they get destroyed. That's coaching in the NBA. It's teaching lessons on how to play and improve their skills, and getting guys mentally ready to compete against that night's opponent. I'm not sure we're doing very well at any of that right now.

[Obstructed_View]

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.
So far, losing hasn't taught the Spurs to think, "Gee, maybe I should pass to that tall guy in a jersey like mine who is open and waving at me."

I think their psyches are out of danger. :lol

[Extra Stout]

Wasting Wemby's rookie year and not developing the sh!tty players around him at every opportunity to learn to pass him the ball is just not smart. Since we suck anyway, the Spurs could spend an entire game working on entry passes to Wemby. We lose by 40, who cares? At least we're working on something that matters in the long run. Having these guys run around with zero structure or accountability, like they're playing in the Rec League at the YMCA is just dumb.

This is the sticking point for me. I get that wins and losses don’t matter that much. But Victor’s development does. And the decisions that are being made are stunting the development of the greatest prospect in a generation. And the solutions to that are blinking-red-lights obvious. If that’s not being done with an eye on the next draft, then what the hell?

[z0sa]

The problem is that when they're losing they're thinking "Man am I just not good enough?" Tanking just tells the players that they're not good enough and can hurt their psyche. You're tanking for a player who's going to take SOMEBODIES job.

100% because this team is so young.

No vet presence (especially at PG) means a lot more than missing Wemby 3 times a quarter for dunks. Our guys are young and none of them are guaranteed an NBA salary 4-5 years from now. They, like most younguns won’t know what is good for them until they experience it.

“Tanking” would absolutely ruin the confidence of some of these younger players if it was an unspoken but obvious fact in the locker room. Anyone who says differently doesnt remember being 21 or is BSing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wemby seems to be getting more irritated with the losing not less.

[DAF86]

It didn't ruin the Spurs when the tanked for Timmy, tbh.

[TD 21]

This is the sticking point for me. I get that wins and losses don’t matter that much. But Victor’s development does. And the decisions that are being made are stunting the development of the greatest prospect in a generation. And the solutions to that are blinking-red-lights obvious. If that’s not being done with an eye on the next draft, then what the hell?

I don't have an alternate theory to offer or any facts to refute what you said, but you must have an axe to grind.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It didn't ruin the Spurs when the tanked for Timmy, tbh.

One year tank is different. And it's not really a tank when Robinson coming back from injury means the rebuild is complete.

[itzsoweezee]

Nothing wrong in with tanking. How you do it matters. What the Spurs are doing right now is probably not good for anyone on the current roster, wemby included. Seeing him celebrate the win the other night is probably a good representation of why

[rankingtear]

They are not tanking. Wemby offense is not good right now and it is too raw to build anything around it. Every draft guy is saying this before the draft a PG won't suddenly fix it only hide it.

[CGD]

They won 40 games last year, and are currently 2nd in the west. I’d call that progress, and the end of their tank.

This will be the year to prove it; last year they finished 10th in the West with DAL and POR shamelessly tanking at the end, and Utah coming down to earth some. Presti gets a lot of love because he always seems to win the offseasons, which is fine, but not the whole story.

But the broader point stands: we are arguably in year 1.5 of the tank, and folks should hold their bitching until we see it at year 4. Spurs are on schedule as far as I'm concerned.

[weebo]

People want to call it a tank I call it year 0 of the rebuild. The Spurs aren't actively trying to lose games but they sure as hell are not trying to win any either. As far as I can tell, Pop/Spurs FO are happy when they win, meh when they lose. And as far as developing Wemby, he's 19 years old and just learning the NBA fundamentals, learning how his game fits in the NBA, the speed of the NBA, etc...no pressure...just play and learn. The rest of the guys are just auditioning for parts, either you make the cut, get traded or are out of the league. So, who cares if "no jump shot" Tre Jones is lobbing alley oops to Wemby. He won't be on the team in 3 years.

[exstatic]

This will be the year to prove it; last year they finished 10th in the West with DAL and POR shamelessly tanking at the end, and Utah coming down to earth some. Presti gets a lot of love because he always seems to win the offseasons, which is fine, but not the whole story.

But the broader point stands: we are arguably in year 1.5 of the tank, and folks should hold their bitching until we see it at year 4. Spurs are on schedule as far as I'm concerned.

They lost Chet for the year, or they might hav made noise last year.

[SouthernFryd]

Tanking is wrong on so many levels.

One not talked about much...is morally. It sucks something out of people when they lie or fake things. It's wrong...whether or not it produces results. It affects people negatively. It's soul sucking. "Yeah, we tanked. We didn't play hard. We faked it." How's that make them feel. How's that make them play? Kinda like they're playing now maybe?

How many of the greats did that. Seems to be much more prevalent now than ever before. And not just in basketball.

But, this is not war. This is not life or death. This is a game. You learn a lot about people when playing games. If you're paying attention, you have learned a lot about Pop.

[The Truth #6]

It felt like the morale on the team was way better last year. Possibly because there was less pressure in a way before Victor showed up. And now I get a sense there may be a time clock ticking for all the players, and I don't see that necessarily good for team spirit in a sense. Players potentially could be looking just to get their stats and look for the next team they might end up on. I can't say that conclusively, but I have to wonder if that's potentially becoming a question. I mean, it's a business. For example, Sochan's next contract doesn't exactly look more promising dollar wise after getting thrown into the fire as a point guard.

[Dex]

They are not tanking. Wemby offense is not good right now and it is too raw to build anything around it. Every draft guy is saying this before the draft a PG won't suddenly fix it only hide it.

Spus are 4-22.

You can call it whatever you want, but at this point we better be tanking because we sure as hell aren't winning anything this season. The only thing to play for is another good draft pick.

[eric365]

Tanking is ok and even wemby should understand it
But tanking the way spurs do it is an issue

Get a good pass first point guard with very bad defense to compensate
And rest key players on more games
That should keep a 15 wins max record

[cd98]

Tanking didn't ruin the Spurs when they got Tim Duncan. It changed the franchise. Same with the Cavs tanking for Lebron. Spurs aren't ruined for tanking to get Wemby. Losing is generally what follows a number one pick. The good news is we should be in the lottery again with a chance to add more talent to the roster. If you improve too quickly, you can end up a middle of the road team with a superstar that's good enough to keep you average but without other assets to improve to become elite.

[Spurs9]

Team would have been way more entertaining to watch with Westbrook tbh.

[z0sa]

Tanking didn't ruin the Spurs when they got Tim Duncan. It changed the franchise. Same with the Cavs tanking for Lebron. Spurs aren't ruined for tanking to get Wemby. Losing is generally what follows a number one pick. The good news is we should be in the lottery again with a chance to add more talent to the roster. If you improve too quickly, you can end up a middle of the road team with a superstar that's good enough to keep you average but without other assets to improve to become elite.

Cavs improved to 35 wins with LeBron. David Robinson was injured for the TD tank. He came back and we were instantly contenders.

Spurs are looking like they are starting the tank this season, when it is already year 2 at the earliest.

[R. DeMurre]

I think it's a fair question to ask. It's clear that many fans are frustrated by tanking, and it makes sense that a certain percentage of players might have the same reaction. The only real concern I have right now is that a good deal might be available at the trade deadline and be rejected for fear of it adding too many wins. One interesting thing to me is that Sochan, back at his more natural position, has registered in the last four games assist/turnover numbers of 8/0, 4/0, 2/1, and 5/3... that's 19 assists to 4 TOs, which is a pretty great sign. If Sochan at PG was an experiment to make him better while waiting for a real PG to show up via free agency, trade, or the draft, it appears that the experiment might be showing signs of having some success.

[scott]

Cavs improved to 35 wins with LeBron. David Robinson was injured for the TD tank. He came back and we were instantly contenders.

Spurs are looking like they are starting the tank this season, when it is already year 2 at the earliest.

This is one of the overlooked part of the argument that we are merely in Year 1 of a 3/4 year tank. That’s a fair concept, but what other supposedly generational player took several more years of tanking after him for the team to become competitive? I’ll grant you, Timmy is a unique case that should not be pointed at since he was added to a contender already.

All the other generational talents immediately improved their teams. The Spurs have gotten significantly worse, which was hard to even think possible.

Though I understand the argument that we are merely 1 year into a 3/4 year tank… are we just supposed to ignore the 3 lottery picks that preceded Wemby? Yes, they were late lotto picks… but they were still lotto picks. Do we get to write them off because we simply sucked instead of were deliberately tanking?

If this is a 3-4 year tank, it will mean that we missed the playoffs for 6-7 straight years to rebuild. Maybe folks are okay with that, but in what world does a GM and HC who require a 7 year rebuild deserve to be rewarded (one of them with the highest paying contract in the league).

Once again, this former Sniffer says that this is starting to smell like horse shit.

Some other great points made… I’d be more at peace with the tank if there were discernible development taking place. Instead, we have Wemby missing out on key developmental opportunities because his teammates suck. We have Devin turning into a poor-shot selection black hole because the team around him suck ass and he can’t get fed properly, and we have Sochan being forced into being something he is not and is not his highest and best use. The result is we lose by 40 and gain nothing. If we’re going to lose by 40 and have a 4-22 record, at least get something out of it.

[exstatic]

This is one of the overlooked part of the argument that we are merely in Year 1 of a 3/4 year tank. That’s a fair concept, but what other supposedly generational player took several more years of tanking after him for the team to become competitive? I’ll grant you, Timmy is a unique case that should not be pointed at since he was added to a contender already.

All the other generational talents immediately improved their teams. The Spurs have gotten significantly worse, which was hard to even think possible.

Though I understand the argument that we are merely 1 year into a 3/4 year tank… are we just supposed to ignore the 3 lottery picks that preceded Wemby? Yes, they were late lotto picks… but they were still lotto picks. Do we get to write them off because we simply sucked instead of were deliberately tanking?

If this is a 3-4 year tank, it will mean that we missed the playoffs for 6-7 straight years to rebuild. Maybe folks are okay with that, but in what world does a GM and HC who require a 7 year rebuild deserve to be rewarded (one of them with the highest paying contract in the league).

Once again, this former Sniffer says that this is starting to smell like horse shit.

Some other great points made… I’d be more at peace with the tank if there were discernible development taking place. Instead, we have Wemby missing out on key developmental opportunities because his teammates suck. We have Devin turning into a poor-shot selection black hole because the team around him suck ass and he can’t get fed properly, and we have Sochan being forced into being something he is not and is not his highest and best use. The result is we lose by 40 and gain nothing. If we’re going to lose by 40 and have a 4-22 record, at least get something out of it.

We’re actually in year two. I’m also guessing that Cleveland wasn’t tanking when they won 35 games, and that caused problems down the line when they tried to put a team around him.

[JuneJive]

Where was this question before we got Wemby?

Now it's bad, yeah, right.

[scott]

I think it's a fair question to ask. It's clear that many fans are frustrated by tanking, and it makes sense that a certain percentage of players might have the same reaction. The only real concern I have right now is that a good deal might be available at the trade deadline and be rejected for fear of it adding too many wins. One interesting thing to me is that Sochan, back at his more natural position, has registered in the last four games assist/turnover numbers of 8/0, 4/0, 2/1, and 5/3... that's 19 assists to 4 TOs, which is a pretty great sign. If Sochan at PG was an experiment to make him better while waiting for a real PG to show up via free agency, trade, or the draft, it appears that the experiment might be showing signs of having some success.

Really fantastic point. I could definitely see an opportunity arising that seems perfect (the right player, the right price, the right timeline) and the FO passing because “we aren’t ready to win” - and then a similar opportunity fails to present itself. I’m thinking of a move similar to the one that took Halliburton to Indy. A young player on the rise (and still on his rookie deal) but with clear star potential was gettable. These types of opportunities do not come around often.

It’s easy to find the logic to pass on an established (potentially disgruntled) star making a ton of money (some like Dame), but I hope if a Halliburton-like situation presents itself that this team doesn’t pass for the sake of some other “master plan” that right now appears to be questionable in terms of what the results will be. We could get Top 5 picks for the next 3 years and roll snake eyes with busts 3-years in a row. You just don’t know, but someone like the Halliburton comes with a much higher degree of confidence.

[scott]

We’re actually in year two. I’m also guessing that Cleveland wasn’t tanking when they won 35 games, and that caused problems down the line when they tried to put a team around him.

Yes, when you are one year into something, you are in year two.

Of course Cleveland wasn’t taking when they won 35 games, they didn’t need to anymore - they just added a generational talent, and immediately went on a trajectory of improvement, winning 35 games, then becoming a .500+ team, on their way to becoming a 60 win team. That’s my point. What other generational talents required several years of tanking after they were drafted?

[MultiTroll]

Once again, this former Sniffer says that this is starting to smell like horse shit.

Some other great points made… I’d be more at peace with the tank if there were discernible development taking place. Instead, we have Wemby missing out on key developmental opportunities because his teammates suck. We have Devin turning into a poor-shot selection black hole because the team around him suck ass and he can’t get fed properly, and we have Sochan being forced into being something he is not and is not his highest and best use. The result is we lose by 40 and gain nothing. If we’re going to lose by 40 and have a 4-22 record, at least get something out of it.

[z0sa]

This is one of the overlooked part of the argument that we are merely in Year 1 of a 3/4 year tank. That’s a fair concept, but what other supposedly generational player took several more years of tanking after him for the team to become competitive? I’ll grant you, Timmy is a unique case that should not be pointed at since he was added to a contender already.

All the other generational talents immediately improved their teams. The Spurs have gotten significantly worse, which was hard to even think possible.

Though I understand the argument that we are merely 1 year into a 3/4 year tank… are we just supposed to ignore the 3 lottery picks that preceded Wemby? Yes, they were late lotto picks… but they were still lotto picks. Do we get to write them off because we simply sucked instead of were deliberately tanking?

If this is a 3-4 year tank, it will mean that we missed the playoffs for 6-7 straight years to rebuild. Maybe folks are okay with that, but in what world does a GM and HC who require a 7 year rebuild deserve to be rewarded (one of them with the highest paying contract in the league).

Once again, this former Sniffer says that this is starting to smell like horse shit.

Some other great points made… I’d be more at peace with the tank if there were discernible development taking place. Instead, we have Wemby missing out on key developmental opportunities because his teammates suck. We have Devin turning into a poor-shot selection black hole because the team around him suck ass and he can’t get fed properly, and we have Sochan being forced into being something he is not and is not his highest and best use. The result is we lose by 40 and gain nothing. If we’re going to lose by 40 and have a 4-22 record, at least get something out of it.

That is the conclusion I've come to as well. it took a franchise record streak of losses, but now, it's impossible to unsee.

The FO wet the bed with this roster, outside of tanking hard enough/getting the lucky roll for Wemby. It doesn't take away from their past accomplishments or anything. But there's failure from top to bottom this time. Tanking a few more years to fix it is certainly a possibility, but that won't mean this isn't a monumentally messed up roster right now.

At least we have Wemby. The damage control should center directly on making him happy enough to stay here forever, no less. If that means trading for a PG and we're only fringe playoff team for a couple years, I think it's honestly worth it, if Wemby is happy. People who think we should tank and keep the long game in mind -- there is no long game without the big fella. So if he's okay with it, and nothing indicates he is, fine. But don't act like it's some kind of certainty (not you, just in general with sniffers).

[poopbox]

Of course. You rarely ever see the same players a team tanks with on the team when they start to get good. You run the risk of not getting a franchise player, or getting a flawed franchise player, so Philly and Ben Simmons. If it doesn't work you then have to overpay to sign veteran players to make up for what you failed to hit on in the lottery. See Houston now, or Philly years ago as another example when they had to trade for Butler and for Harris, then sign Hortford to a huge extension, mainly because Embiid was the only thing they got out of tanking, and as great as he is, he ALWAYS finds ways to be hurt when it matters most.

[poopbox]

They won 40 games last year, and are currently 2nd in the west. I’d call that progress, and the end of their tank.

Maybe. He is only in this position though because he couldn't hang on to 2 HOF players and foolishly traded a 3rd.

Also, a large chunk of his draft capital doesn't exist because he made some good deals, it exist because he had paul george on his team, and that is who Kawhi wanted to play with, and thus he ended up with those picks and SGA.

Same thing with Chris Paul. Harden wanted to play with him. Presti was just as the right place at the right time.

I don't think Presti is a very good GM. He has failed at every aspect of being a GM other than luckily having the right players other stars want to play with and then just de facto getting everything from that team.

I think he is actually scared of winning anything, which would require him to make real trades and real roster moves. I wouldn't be surprised if as soon as SGA seems unhappy there he ships him out so he can restart his draft ponzi scheme all over again.

[Tyronn Lue]

I think you can get by with this as long as your players are of that caliber, meaning most of them are just trying to get paid and stay in the NBA. None of them other than Victor were told their entire careers that they are the generational talent the NBA really needs, so to them getting minutes, win or lose, means some team might see them and they might stay gainfully employed. Plus they get to say they played for Gregg Popovich, which might boost their resumes over someone similar who played for Alvin Gentry.

[Tyronn Lue]

Spus are 4-22.

You can call it whatever you want, but at this point we better be tanking because we sure as hell aren't winning anything this season. The only thing to play for is another good draft pick.
Half the NBA loses every night. The Spurs are historically bad vs other Spurs teams but not vs the entire league (Detroit, for example). Plenty losses were single digit losses.

[The Truth #6]

I think it's a complicated narrative. Pop delayed the tank/rebuild for years so he could get the wins record, and so instead of cashing out when Nephew fucked us, Pop fucked us by dragging out the the Mid Three era with veterans like Marco. The rebuild was going well with good trades but the drafting was only average to slightly above average, whiffing on Sengun and Halliburton. And now I don't believe the argument that those players would have kept us from VW, because Pop has shown an incredible ability manufacture losses, or at least it seems that way.

So to me the rebuild started with trading White and Dejounte, and we are what, 1.5 years into it now.

At least we have VW, so things are still full of great potential. Lots of upcoming draft potential. But I'm starting to lean towards making a big trade to get a quality player because I'm not convinced we are great enough at drafting talent, and if Pop is going to stick around and try to win, he is going to need to jettison a bunch of the current players simply because I don't see how they can listen to him if he starts yelling and coaching again, assuming that is a switch he can still flip.

A complicated narrative.

[venitian navigator]

difficult to apply the idea that tanking ruins a team to us, considering that tanking the last year gave us a generational prospect like Wemby.
Imho the real "rebuilding" for any team starts when you have at least a pick in the top 5 draft picks aka a player you can consider at leat a good starting five player for the next 10 years and the rebuilding project takes from 3 to 5 years after that ...so, for me, the real "rebuilding project" for us stars now...at to begin this project Wemby is not a bad starting piece at all...

[scott]

Are there any examples of coaches or GM’s that survive a true rebuild? Usually a FO/coaching staff starts the process, but gets fired before the seeds are allowed to blossom.

You could come up with some CIA Pop fantasy that this all part of the master plan… let Pop be the one to absorb all the arrows during the rebuild to set up the next person (Becky? Manu?) for success. You could come up with that… but c’mon.

[Phenomanul]

Robinson was drafted in 1987 but didn't play for the Spurs until the 1989-90 season. Robinson came into the league as a 24 year old (basically in his prime). His first year coincided with Sean Elliott's, Terry Cummings', Rod Strickland's and an aging Maurice Cheeks' first year with the Spurs. That's a heck of a roster turnover considering those 5 players (including The Admiral himself) were in the top-6 in usage during Robinson's rookie season though they weren't with the Spurs the season prior. Only Willie Anderson who was also in the top 6 (minutes-wise) was on the Spurs' roster the previous season. Terry Cummings was a 7 year veteran that seamlessly filled an All-Star caliber role during Robinson's rookie season, averaging 22.4 PPG (on 47.5 FG%) / 8.4 RPG / 2.7 APG . Rod Strickland, meanwhile, was a more-than-capable point guard.

Duncan had a different situation; like Robinson, he entered the league after having completed a 4-YR collegiate career. Duncan was 21 years of age during his rookie year, this is no knock on Victor, but 21-year olds are appreciably more mature than 19-year olds (both mentally and physically). Because Robinson was still an All-Star caliber player and an All-NBA Defense player in 1997, the Spurs were in a very unique situation where they basically added a No. 1 pick to a squad that contended for Western Conference supremacy only two seasons prior. Rookie Duncan's squad gelled pretty quick (after a so-so start) and led the league in almost every defensive metric. They were a force to be reckoned with from the get-go.

Wemby doesn't have any of those situational benefits working in his favor. On the contrary, he landed on a squad bereft of any All-Star talent and needs a running mate that will be a solid No. 2. Vassell could ultimately turn into that player, but with the current roster imbalance (no starting quality PG), even Vassell is playing out of his element and trying to do "too much". It's no wonder that Spurs' management is using this season as an opportunity to develop some of their players' weaknesses while giving Wemby a feel for the league. They know that they need a clear No. 2 to even be in a position to contend. Whether or not the mental psyche of the players themselves is shattered by this process comes second to ensuring they can position themselves to build a strong long term product. Spurs' executives know that winning (once all the pieces are in place) will quickly erase any bad memories from this developmental season. They are using it to gauge who has the mental fortitude to be a part of Wemby's core and aren't trying to rush anything. They, more than anyone here, UNDERSTAND that Victor is only 19 and that this season was strictly developmental.

[ambchang]

Vassell is already developing some pretty bad habits. Poor defense and ball hog offence. In some ways i can’t blame him too much because the team will lose no matter that he does so might as well get his numbers and get paid.

[Seventyniner]

I do wonder if the Pistons' complete ineptitude has kept the tanking spotlight off the Spurs to an extent. 4-23 is horrible, but at least it isn't 25 straight losses!

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. This shouldn't even be debatable. There's likely no player on this team outside of Wemby that will be a part of this team the next time they are contenders. And you can see it out there on the court. There are players with talent but they have absolutely no clue on how to play winning basketball and their dominant roles on losing teams have inflated their sense of worth. This holds true for Devin more than any other player out there.

[The Truth #6]

Responding to Scott--

Pop has been coaching so long and has unprecedented job security, so I think it's difficult to find comparisons. Before VW, Pop made comments of setting the team up for the next person. Now with VW, who knows when he wants to leave. He may like the ability to travel and hang out with basketball people and this is already his version of semi-retirement. And so to me it was never senility, but too strongly now accepting the rebuild and basically giving up on coaching/yelling so he can be a nice guy now.

Anyway, just speculating.

[Tyronn Lue]

The pregame press conference with Pop yesterday was informative, but not surprising. You can see that Pop knows what he has, but he's gaslighting the room with comments about Victor being young and learning from film. I don't know who's asking the question, some Chicago writer that Pop seems familiar with, but he asks some questions the SA writers seem either to stupid or chickenshit to ask.

n_Di9jx_HWI

[Degoat]

I think tanking is bad, once you have your guy (wemby) it’s time to start surrounding him with the right pieces! If it takes you a whole season to figure that out as a front office and coaching staff you’re not very good at your job lol

say we get a top 3 pick again the same excuse next year will be about finding guys spots on the court, where they like the ball, young, and learning etc…

[scott]

Responding to Scott--

Pop has been coaching so long and has unprecedented job security, so I think it's difficult to find comparisons. Before VW, Pop made comments of setting the team up for the next person. Now with VW, who knows when he wants to leave. He may like the ability to travel and hang out with basketball people and this is already his version of semi-retirement. And so to me it was never senility, but too strongly now accepting the rebuild and basically giving up on coaching/yelling so he can be a nice guy now.

Anyway, just speculating.

Yeah, Pop's (earned) bona fides give him an unprecedented level of rope... but that's on the Spurs ownership for not having a backbone. Even in New England there are rumors that they could be moving on from Bill Belichick this offseason, and that is the most direct comparison I can think of. The parallel's are pretty obvious amongst these two coaching GOATS, despite being in different sports. One group seems content to just let the coach do whatever he wants, consequences be damned, whereas the other franchise still has a hunger for excellence and winning and will do what is necessary to keep progress moving forward.

There is a collective lack of self-awareness here by both Pop and the Holts. Wright gets a pass here as GM (For this particular situation) because as GM he is responsible for holding the Coach to account, but he reports to the President of Basketball Ops who happens to be said Coach.

[Tyronn Lue]

Yeah, Pop's (earned) bona fides give him an unprecedented level of rope... but that's on the Spurs ownership for not having a backbone. Even in New England there are rumors that they could be moving on from Bill Belichick this offseason, and that is the most direct comparison I can think of. The parallel's are pretty obvious amongst these two coaching GOATS, despite being in different sports. One group seems content to just let the coach do whatever he wants, consequences be damned, whereas the other franchise still has a hunger for excellence and winning and will do what is necessary to keep progress moving forward.

There is a collective lack of self-awareness here by both Pop and the Holts. Wright gets a pass here as GM (For this particular situation) because as GM he is responsible for holding the Coach to account, but he reports to the President of Basketball Ops who happens to be said Coach.
I remember when Jerry Sloan was let go. That was not a dignified exit for him. All it takes is for the chain of command to be broken and an unknown inserted, now the good old boy network is compromised. Pop and RC could be out.