Spurs fans are turning on Gregg Popovich over Victor Wembanyama 'mismanagement' (Article)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

https://clutchpoints.com/spurs-fans-are-turning-on-gregg-popovich-over-victor-wembanyama-mismanagement

[Ninja Roach]

It's frustrating, but there is method behind the madness. Wemby is 19. He therefore has 19-year-old bones/muscles/connective tissue. With the obvious facts out in front, it'd be foolish to throw that type of body into the deep end by having him bang with seasoned veteran bigs with no safety precautions like minutes restrictions. The chance that he sustains a serious injury is much more mitigated this way.

This is also most likely the reason they allowed Wemby to try his hand out in the perimeter to see out it went. That and the simple fact that there is a lot of value in allowing your young superstar talent to try things out their way and experience firsthand how successful or not their way is. Makes a person more coachable/teachable in the future when they've tried their desired method and failed.

Regardless, less contact, equals less wear and tear on comparably (compared to most other NBA players) fragile joints. His physiology has to be allowed to grow into not only NBA wear and tear, but NBA big wear and tear, and that will take time.

No point in grinding down your miraculous draft project any sooner than you have to. To the poor impatient souls that think this is a wasted season, it's not. Wemby is learning and adjusting to the NBA nightly. The physicality and speed of players, tricks of the trade to become a craftier player, and little adjustments to increase efficiency and overall just learning how he can best contribute to turning his production into wins are all little milestones that have to be encountered and overcome.

Painful as it is, patience is needed.

[heyheymymy]

What mismanagement?

Getting another top 10 talent to pair with wemby is the right move. Only one way to pick that range and you know it.

And if it works out SA is reloaded with deep young talent, financial flexibility, and future draft capital- the official stated goal.

More like stupid Spurs fans mismanaging their expectations. Pop gunning for postseason contention with rookie wemby would be actual mismanagement.

Wemby isnt ready yet, say Dame would resent carrying a young inexperienced team and likely falling short and then blowing our cap flexibility in the future with his albatross contract structure, wemby would get confidence issues falling short and some vets plus wemby and a tank does shit for us now and plus 5 wins wouldn't be worth the potential cost on ping pong balls nor would assuage our thirst for lasting, meaningful wins. and did someone say cock rivers and CP3 LOL

[HemisfairArena]

The Detroit Pistons,,,in the last 4 years,,,drafted the 7th overall pick, 1st overall, 5th overall, and 5th overall,,,and they just broke the NBA record for most losses in a row in NBA history. Tanking for the draft is a mistake and Wemby will be gone,,,,but some spurs fans think its the right move,,,,just go ask Detroit if all those high draft picks have panned out as they had hoped. Spurs should have traded for proven players.

[eric365]

« Sochan has a total of 11 assists to Wemby this season... they've played 24 games together
That means he's averaging 0.45 assists per game to Wemby this season

How tf does that happen between a lead guard and the team's best player »

Truth bomb in the tweets in the article

[MultiTroll]

« Sochan has a total of 11 assists to Wemby this season... they've played 24 games together
That means he's averaging 0.45 assists per game to Wemby this season

How tf does that happen between a lead guard and the team's best player »

Truth bomb in the tweets in the article
Rack it.

[BacktoBasics]

Wemby could average 28 a game and spurs fans would bitch that we don’t have balanced scoring. All spurs fans do is bitch.

[Chinook]

It's the downside of drafting a huge prospect. There are a bunch of shitty player-fans running around trying to sew as much division as possible in order to put their guy on a pedestal. Pop obviously deserves a lot of push-back, but Victor is having a pretty successful rookie year, and folks who think he's going to come and be like Duncan can't handle Wemby's rawness. They have to believe it's the result of some special incompetence or malice on everyone else's part. Sean Elliott is right there among them. Dude played with two rookie first-overall picks who were physically mature and far more actualized for NBA competition, and he just assumes Wemby is in the same place.

[Mugen]

It's the downside of drafting a huge prospect. There are a bunch of shitty player-fans running around trying to sew as much division as possible in order to put their guy on a pedestal.

Oh, I've had plenty of help from the old man on that front. I haven't even had to do much. He's been absolute garbage in literally every single aspect of the team this season :lol

[exstatic]

What mismanagement?

Getting another top 10 talent to pair with wemby is the right move. Only one way to pick that range and you know it.

And if it works out SA is reloaded with deep young talent, financial flexibility, and future draft capital- the official stated goal.

More like stupid Spurs fans mismanaging their expectations. Pop gunning for postseason contention with rookie wemby would be actual mismanagement.

Wemby isnt ready yet, say Dame would resent carrying a young inexperienced team and likely falling short and then blowing our cap flexibility in the future with his albatross contract structure, wemby would get confidence issues falling short and some vets plus wemby and a tank does shit for us now and plus 5 wins wouldn't be worth the potential cost on ping pong balls nor would assuage our thirst for lasting, meaningful wins. and did someone say cock rivers and CP3 LOL

Top 10 won’t cut it. Top 3-5 would give us what we need.

[Mugen]

Top 10 won’t cut it. Top 3-5 would give us what we need.

:lol They'll be picking in the top 5 for the next 4 years until Wemby is off the team tbh. Don't matter when you're drafting busts every draft.

[Chinook]

Oh, I've had plenty of help from the old man on that front. I haven't even had to do much. He's been absolute garbage in literally every single aspect of the team this season :lol

Wasn't talking about you. You're to edgelord as Ex is to sniffer. People have just moved to where you've been, though for different reasons.

[Mugen]

Wasn't talking about you. You're to edgelord as Ex is to sniffer. People have just moved to where you've been, though for different reasons.

And I love it, Chin. They'll be fully on board by the end of the season. There will be a small glimmer of hope during the offseason with whatever crap rookie(s) they end up drafting that might let some morons swing back the other way. Then it'll settle back in when the team is even worse during the first 15-20 games of next season :lol

[BackHome]

I actually think Wemby is hurt and he is close to hitting that rookie wall they need to mange his injuries. I am sure his team has a big say in how many minutes he is getting or not getting. He is going to miss a couple of games soon and it's going to be fun watching all the posters totally loose it when this happens.

[Dex]

What mismanagement?

Getting another top 10 talent to pair with wemby is the right move. Only one way to pick that range and you know it.

And if it works out SA is reloaded with deep young talent, financial flexibility, and future draft capital- the official stated goal.

More like stupid Spurs fans mismanaging their expectations. Pop gunning for postseason contention with rookie wemby would be actual mismanagement.

Wemby isnt ready yet, say Dame would resent carrying a young inexperienced team and likely falling short and then blowing our cap flexibility in the future with his albatross contract structure, wemby would get confidence issues falling short and some vets plus wemby and a tank does shit for us now and plus 5 wins wouldn't be worth the potential cost on ping pong balls nor would assuage our thirst for lasting, meaningful wins. and did someone say cock rivers and CP3 LOL

I am frustrated as a fan because I want to see the Spurs and Wemby succeed. But I also keep preaching patience because the writing is ALL OVER THE WALL.

This team is 4-25.

At this point, there is no reason for winning games other than morale....and half this team is going to be gone in two seasons. Tanking is a two or three year process at best.

Suffer through this season, get another good draft pick...and start over next year. It's not like we were going to win the championship this year anyways

[spurs10]

I am frustrated as a fan because I want to see the Spurs and Wemby succeed. But I also keep preaching patience because the writing is ALL OVER THE WALL.

This team is 4-25.

At this point, there is no reason for winning games other than morale....and half this team is going to be gone in two seasons. Tanking is a two or three year process at best.

Suffer through this season, get another good draft pick...and start over next year. It's not like we were going to win the championship this year anyways
Well, you're right. Winning a game at this point is only for "morale."

[tbdog]

I don't think pop is mismanaging Wemby at all. He has a free reign on offense. Huge usage rate. But I dislike how he is mismanaging our other prospects.

[MultiTroll]

At this point, there is no reason for winning games other than morale...
Craig Popplevich April 2022

“There’s a lot to unpack there. Part if it is, it’s just not who we are. It’s not who I am. I can’t operate like that. Which might not be the most intelligent overall philosophy to have, and I get that. But we are who we are. We’re going to go ahead and complete.
“I think the young players gain a real understanding of a philosophically moral space where it’s the right thing to do, to continue to compete. Frankly, I don’t know how I would go to my team and say, ‘Ok guys, we’re not going to complete the way we should,’ or how you’d get that across, or with a wink and a nod. I think you do the players a disservice if they’re not able to go out and perform at the best of their ability.
“I think the lessons to be learned are very important as their careers advance. You hope that in the long run, that value they game from that will help them compete at an even higher level later. I understand the opposite, I just can’t do it.”

Gregg Popovich on why the Spurs were never planning on tanking - Pounding The Rock (https://www.poundingtherock.com/2022/4/12/23021666/gregg-popovich-on-why-the-spurs-were-never-planning-on-tanking)

[mudd]

4-25, all spurs fans do is bitch...we also boo... but we shouldnt.. not spursy..

[heyheymymy]

Any 2024 top 5 pick possibly will need an adjustment period too unless it's a finished product

24-25 season might look a lot like this one so get ready

You front runners might wanna just check back in 3 seasons

[heyheymymy]

Wemby is #1 in usage among all NBA rookies right now

[scott]

All top prospects are 19 year olds these days, which means that whatever top pick we get is just going to bring in another guy who needs years to develop, with no semblance of a real NBA team around him.

As I posted here (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303021&page=2&p=11004732#post11004732), Wemby is the only "Generational Talent" since the lottery was created to fail to make his team better, either by number of wins or win %, and that is even being generous on what we consider a "Generational Talent".

Think about that for a moment. The most touted prospect in 20 years... and not only is the team worse, it is considerably worse. The main cast has remained the same and we have put out a mockery of professional basketball. We even have a worse +/- that the team who may legitimately threaten the worst season of all time (who are notably on a strategy seemingly similar to ours, with two top 5 picks following their #1 overall pick, and headed straight towards another... how exciting).

There is no other way to describe this than a dereliction of management, as intentional as it may be.

I don't know Wemby, but he seems like the kind of guy who will be loyal to those who are loyal to him. I don't think he would describe the management of team to date as what is best for Wemby.

Spurs right now remind me of Williams F1 Racing... a team with a great history is basically just a joke at this point.

[Tyronn Lue]

It's the downside of drafting a huge prospect. There are a bunch of shitty player-fans running around trying to sew as much division as possible in order to put their guy on a pedestal. Pop obviously deserves a lot of push-back, but Victor is having a pretty successful rookie year, and folks who think he's going to come and be like Duncan can't handle Wemby's rawness. They have to believe it's the result of some special incompetence or malice on everyone else's part. Sean Elliott is right there among them. Dude played with two rookie first-overall picks who were physically mature and far more actualized for NBA competition, and he just assumes Wemby is in the same place.
It must be a conspiracy across the league. No way it's actually true, despite what we see every night with them.

[SPURt]

I was watching the Bulls game with the Bulls commentators and wondering who was the guy calling out the Spurs offense. It was Stacy King! I enjoyed listening to them. They were almost pulling for the Spurs at the end. Kind of like the end of Braveheart where the crowd turns and starts yelling mercy lol

[poopbox]

I mean I don't really know what is to be gleamed from letting Victor "figure it out" and "observe" him playing because he was always going to do what 19 year old 1st overall picks do, have a few good games some amazing highlights and be mostly inefficient.

Purposely not playing him with a point guard is dumb and purposely playing him with a power forward who is failing horribly at being a point guard is downright fucking stupid.

[playblair]

What mismanagement?

Getting another top 10 talent to pair with wemby is the right move. Only one way to pick that range and you know it.

And if it works out SA is reloaded with deep young talent, financial flexibility, and future draft capital- the official stated goal.

More like stupid Spurs fans mismanaging their expectations. Pop gunning for postseason contention with rookie wemby would be actual mismanagement.

Wemby isnt ready yet, say Dame would resent carrying a young inexperienced team and likely falling short and then blowing our cap flexibility in the future with his albatross contract structure, wemby would get confidence issues falling short and some vets plus wemby and a tank does shit for us now and plus 5 wins wouldn't be worth the potential cost on ping pong balls nor would assuage our thirst for lasting, meaningful wins. and did someone say cock rivers and CP3 LOL
brian wright has missed one every pick as the spurs & pistons gm.........the scenario u laid out only works if u have a sam presti running ur front office......not a diversity quota hire........

[KobesAchilles]

It's the downside of drafting a huge prospect. There are a bunch of shitty player-fans running around trying to sew as much division as possible in order to put their guy on a pedestal. Pop obviously deserves a lot of push-back, but Victor is having a pretty successful rookie year, and folks who think he's going to come and be like Duncan can't handle Wemby's rawness. They have to believe it's the result of some special incompetence or malice on everyone else's part. Sean Elliott is right there among them. Dude played with two rookie first-overall picks who were physically mature and far more actualized for NBA competition, and he just assumes Wemby is in the same place.
Nobody expected him to be rookie Duncan. That’s just a lie and an ad hominem. Although to counter your point about rookie DRob (who you constantly say was ready from the jump) DRob himself has said in multiple interviews that he hadn’t payed basketball in 2 years and knew nothing about basketball when he came into the league. The dude was coached by Navy, he had no good coaching to show him how to play. DRob was an extremely raw talent that Brown taught how to play basketball. It’s why DRob had him at his hall of fame ceremony. And you saying otherwise is weird to me.

I will say they are mishandling Wemby. You keep bringing up the fact that Wemby is 19. Well how old is Vassell? And Sochan? Are they 10 year vets or something? Bc I thought Sochan was 20. And same with Vassell. The whole team is young. So wtf does Wembys age have to do with anything? We know he’s flawed. No shit. Nobody is saying he isn’t.
But can we run so gotdamn plays for him? Seriously is it that hard to screen and roll and throw a lob to the guy. Luka does it 4 times a game with his 19 year old rookie. Can we set up some easy baskets for him? Call me old fashioned but I believe it shouldn’t be that hard to get him the ball in the spots he likes.

Also explain in what universe should Vassell be shooting more than Wemby? I need that explained to me. Bc he isn’t being doubled. And how can Sochan not ever get him involved in the offense? Hell how come nobody in the starting line up can get him involved.

The only player fan I see are you. You have somehow tied yourself to Sochan and Vassell and KJ and just say well Wemby is raw. What can they do? How are they supposed to help him? He’s 19. Sure everyone else is 21 but he’s 19. We can’t run the offense through our best player. Sure literally every successful franchise ever in the history of the nba has won by doing that. But he’s 19 and raw. It would be bad for us to that. After all we have won 4 games this year, imagine if Wemby shot 50 times! Oh the horror of it all. Allowing our franchise player to get the ball a lot. Your takes can’t be taken serious at this point my man.

[TimmyBuckets]

Keep this up and this retarded fanbase is gonna live out their worst nightmare and push Wemby out.

[Chinook]

Nobody expected him to be rookie Duncan. That’s just a lie and an ad hominem.

Stop, I'm not playing shitty FuzzyLumpkins games. I'm not chasing you debating this kind of minutia when it comes to semantics or fallacies. Back when I was in college, I was all about that (and folks on this board probably remembers when I used to have those types of arguments for days). But it's a waste of time now.


Although to counter your point about rookie DRob (who you constantly say was ready from the jump) DRob himself has said in multiple interviews that he hadn’t payed basketball in 2 years and knew nothing about basketball when he came into the league.

Robinson might have not "felt" ready, but he was physically mature and was able to do what was needed of him from his first game. It doesn't matter if he needed to be coached or not. He wasn't running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It's like how Tim thought he sucked in his first SL game even though he was actually pretty good.


DRob was an extremely raw talent that Brown taught how to play basketball. It’s why DRob had him at his hall of fame ceremony. And you saying otherwise is weird to me.

Whether Brown taught him how to play basketball or not is pointless, because he knew how to play from his very first game. That doesn't mean that he was a post-up specialist from his first game. There were probably a lot of nuances that took years to pick up. That's not what determines if a player is "ready to be fed". Maybe David knew from Navy how to stand at the dunker spot and when to move to get the ball. Maybe it was taught to him during the off-season by Brown. Maybe it was instinctual. That's not a distinction that matters. What matters is that he, even as a first-overall pick phenom who was going to a struggling franchise, fit into an offense and played off others rather than constantly calling for the ball and turning it over trying to do too much.

The whole conversation about Robinson has been twisted in an attempt to disagree with whatever I said. The rawer Robinson was, the more it proves the point I was making, which is that treating Wemby the way he is being treated, rather than reigning him in and giving him structure, is hurting him, and that deferring to him like he's a star in his prime doesn't make sense. Robinson came up as an example of the Spurs supposedly forcing the ball to. My reply to that was that Robinson was much more refined in his ability to fit on an NBA court and understood better how to get points. You jumped in to say, "You're a liar, Robinson felt like he didn't know how to play basketball until Larry taught him." But all that shows is how much more perspective Robinson has. Even a David who "didn't know how to play basketball" still knew how to play in the NBA more than Wemby does now. As I said before, that's actually reasonable given their age difference and the more complex league Victor is trying to learn.


I will say they are mishandling Wemby. You keep bringing up the fact that Wemby is 19. Well how old is Vassell? And Sochan? Are they 10 year vets or something? Bc I thought Sochan was 20. And same with Vassell. The whole team is young. So wtf does Wembys age have to do with anything? We know he’s flawed. No shit. Nobody is saying he isn’t.
But can we run so gotdamn plays for him? Seriously is it that hard to screen and roll and throw a lob to the guy. Luka does it 4 times a game with his 19 year old rookie. Can we set up some easy baskets for him? Call me old fashioned but I believe it shouldn’t be that hard to get him the ball in the spots he likes.

These paragraphs I guess show you don't actually read the posts you respond to? I've been a huge proponent in the Spurs running plays for Wemby this whole season. I don't think it's a stretch to say I'm the single most vociferous poster when it comes to that. But running plays is a two-way street. Wemby has to actually do his part in those plays, and far too often he breaks plays off trying to get open. We've talked about Victor constantly slipping screens and running to the paint while calling for the ball rather than doing is job and getting the ball-handler open. Yes, some of those plays are going to result in other players scoring, but if he learns to do his job, the defense will actually get put into conflict, which will result in much easier looks for him. It's like that play where Sochan didn't make a hard pass to Wemby and instead kicked it out to Osman, and Cedi drove, pulled Wemby's man and dished it to Victor for an easy look. Those are the kinds of looks he should be getting, but instead he's running around making bad seals and calling for the ball while three or four defenders are standing there waiting.


Also explain in what universe should Vassell be shooting more than Wemby? I need that explained to me. Bc he isn’t being doubled. And how can Sochan not ever get him involved in the offense? Hell how come nobody in the starting line up can get him involved.

Vassell can get his own shot. No, Devin doesn't actually get more FGA than Victor, and Wemby's USG% dwarfs everyone else's. But even if that were the case, it's easier and often times more necessary for him to take those shots. Victor can't even dribble against an engaged defense. He needs to be set up, which for all the reasons I've been talking about, isn't happening right now. Victor is playing center right now and doesn't have an NBA-level skill-set for the position. There's a lot of critical development that he needs to have that goes beyond scoring. The reality though is that a lot of player's efforts are directly tied to their scoring attempts, so the Spurs are going to have to take a balanced approached. They aren't doing that now.


The only player fan I see are you. You have somehow tied yourself to Sochan and Vassell and KJ and just say well Wemby is raw

This ain't it, man. No, I'm not a player-fan of everyone else on the team. That's just trying to rubber-glue your way out of the situation. You're seeing this as a "sides" thing and assuming that I'm being anti-Wemby and that being anti-Wemby makes a person pro-Wemby's enemies. It's ridiculous.


What can they do? How are they supposed to help him? He’s 19.

Yes. Everyone would be helped by the team functioning well, which would be much easier if they had a coach who was interested in actually coaching.


We can’t run the offense through our best player

Why would they run their offense through a player who doesn't know how to play NBA offense? Why not let him learn while not being the focal point? David didn't lead his team in touches as a rookie. It's not because he "didn't know how to play" either. Dude was amazing as a rookie, like OMFG amazing like legit probably the best rookie season ever good. But the Spurs still didn't run the offense through him. David went on to be a man that basically did everything for his team and at his peak absolutely dominated the ball. That was him at his peak as 28-year-old. The gap between what Robinson was and what Wemby is lightyears long. Fuck, Wemby can grow into a superstar and still not be as good a prime David was. Dude was just unreal.


But he’s 19 and raw. It would be bad for us to that. After all we have won 4 games this year, imagine if Wemby shot 50 times! Oh the horror of it all. Allowing our franchise player to get the ball a lot. Your takes can’t be taken serious at this point my man.

You keep waffling between being insulted that I suggested some fans would be happy with Wemby taking an obscene number of shots and acting like I'm silly for not wanting that. It's lame, man. The only way you can try to make your point is to compare Wemby to guys who are much better than him right now and who are much further along in their careers. It's indicative of the player-fandom that's clouding your judgement. It's like how you thought it was silly that Haliburton is getting superstar touches or how in this post you suggested that Wemby is anywhere near rookie Robinson (who in case you didn't know was better than rookie Duncan, not worse). You're substituting what you want him to be with what he is, and when you run into situations where the reality has limitations, you look for reasons to blame others players. Dude is 19, and he does need help. He needs structure and instruction. He doesn't need more touches or for everyone to pass him the ball in any situation.

Dude needs to be coached like an elite prospect and not catered to like an established superstar. I know the difference between those things, but I don't think you do.

[Chinook]

All top prospects are 19 year olds these days, which means that whatever top pick we get is just going to bring in another guy who needs years to develop, with no semblance of a real NBA team around him.

As I posted here (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303021&page=2&p=11004732#post11004732), Wemby is the only "Generational Talent" since the lottery was created to fail to make his team better, either by number of wins or win %, and that is even being generous on what we consider a "Generational Talent".

Think about that for a moment. The most touted prospect in 20 years... and not only is the team worse, it is considerably worse. The main cast has remained the same and we have put out a mockery of professional basketball. We even have a worse +/- that the team who may legitimately threaten the worst season of all time (who are notably on a strategy seemingly similar to ours, with two top 5 picks following their #1 overall pick, and headed straight towards another... how exciting).

There is no other way to describe this than a dereliction of management, as intentional as it may be.

I don't know Wemby, but he seems like the kind of guy who will be loyal to those who are loyal to him. I don't think he would describe the management of team to date as what is best for Wemby.

Spurs right now remind me of Williams F1 Racing... a team with a great history is basically just a joke at this point.

The Spurs shouldn't tank beyond this year. I do think going for one more high pick is fine, but they need to get a vet creator in the worse way. That they used up their cap space on Vassell and Collins endangers that.

I wonder what it would take to get Clarkson from Utah? Dude's a solid piece that might be aging out of Utah long term. He's on a good extension and is flexible about what role he plays. The team could bring him in to help the young PG they draft while he plays off the bench.

[vy65]

It's the downside of drafting a huge prospect. There are a bunch of shitty player-fans running around trying to sew as much division as possible in order to put their guy on a pedestal. Pop obviously deserves a lot of push-back, but Victor is having a pretty successful rookie year, and folks who think he's going to come and be like Duncan can't handle Wemby's rawness. They have to believe it's the result of some special incompetence or malice on everyone else's part. Sean Elliott is right there among them. Dude played with two rookie first-overall picks who were physically mature and far more actualized for NBA competition, and he just assumes Wemby is in the same place.

I mean, no. This is the same myopia from most the fan base … and ignores the elephant in the room: why would Wemby stay after the malpractice demonstrated by the front office. I can stipulate to all the faults you’ve identified with Wemby’s game - and that still would be irrelevant in terms of how utterly incompetent the FO has been in preparing and executing the first year of a generational talent’s career.

There are two givens that are incontrovertible: 1) Wemby projects to be a potential all time great; 2) the spurs had its previous franchise player flee for greener pastures.

These are the only two facts that matter. Wemby warrants immediately cultivating a winning culture (regardless of whether results are immediately obtained) and the FO, coaching staff, and team have utterly failed him in that regard.

To that end, Victor has not had a successful rookie campaign. Losing 17 or whatever it was is definitionally not successful. Much of the brunt of how terrible this team has been has been occluded by Detroit. If you take that out, you’d have a different focus on how terrible we’ve been this year. Vic has been demonstrably frustrated with his middling teammates. That’s a horrible sign. The team has actually regressed despite adding the best prospect of the past 20 years. That’s not” success” by any definition of the term. You have a coach who’s employed an incompressibly incompetent defense that allows a three point oriented league to shoot open three pointers. Again, there’s no definition of success that encapsulates what’s been going on.

There’s simply no excuse for how poorly the team has been prepared for, much less executed, year one of wemby. It’s been historically bad — and it didn’t need to be. Simple moves like keeping Cam Payne, giving up on the Sochan PG experiment early on, moving Keldon to the bench, etc could have been done, but weren’t.

The ultimate thing, that no one seems to be discussing, is this: this franchise doesn’t have the leeway it had 15-20 years ago. It needed to be much better prepared for this season, and in the most incompetent manner, was not. Given the nature of the modern NBA, it’s more probable than not that a generational talent whose first year was set on fire for absolutely no good reason will bolt. This franchise has already shown a proclivity to have that happen. So, no, Wemby’s first year cannot be called successful in any meaningful sense of the term.

[vy65]

The Spurs shouldn't tank beyond this year. I do think going for one more high pick is fine, but they need to get a vet creator in the worse way. That they used up their cap space on Vassell and Collins endangers that.

I wonder what it would take to get Clarkson from Utah? Dude's a solid piece that might be aging out of Utah long term. He's on a good extension and is flexible about what role he plays. The team could bring him in to help the young PG they draft while he plays off the bench.

This is the whole point: they shouldn’t have ranked this year. We’re not in a market like LA or NYC, much less HOU. There’s no good reason to set a year of a prospect who’s career could be limited (due to physique constraints) on fire to “see what they have” with players that had been on the roster for 1-3 years already. The franchise doesn’t have any luxury of time, and acting like it does is the surefire way to ensure Wemby leaves.

Even assuming picks 1 and 7 come out way, those new rookies are going to require the same acclimation process we’re saying Wemby needs. That isn’t going to do us any favors in keeping Wemby. There’s just no strategy with this front office at all, and the fan base needs to stop acting like we have time that we don’t.

[scott]

The Spurs shouldn't tank beyond this year. I do think going for one more high pick is fine, but they need to get a vet creator in the worse way. That they used up their cap space on Vassell and Collins endangers that.

I wonder what it would take to get Clarkson from Utah? Dude's a solid piece that might be aging out of Utah long term. He's on a good extension and is flexible about what role he plays. The team could bring him in to help the young PG they draft while he plays off the bench.

Though I still think we are mishandling this first year of Wemby (I think it's possible to get a top 5 pick without this level of embarrassment and have a more productive tank season in terms of the development of the youth, we've all discussed this at length here and I think most agree, so no need to debate that again here) - I'm generally okay with another tank this year for a high pick, if it turns out that way. But even the most ardent of sniffers told us we were done tanking after we got Wemby, as there was "no one worth tanking for". Yet, here we are, and the next two seasons do in fact have players "worth tanking for" in Flagg and Boozer. I don't want to see this FO get addicted to the tank ("if we just had ONE more top talent to add to the roster...") at the expense of actual progress - because that's how we lose Wemby.

So, all in all, I don't think there is too much disagreement on that overall strategy, it's just the tactics that rub folks (like me) the wrong way and actually make me question whether the Spurs are on the same strategy at all, or on some other long-tank strategy beyond this season. If that comes to be, there will be the sniffers who come out and start threads about how that is genius too, and we can have this same debate all over again. But at least we have on record some of the folks saying the tank should stop this year. I'm just afraid many of these players won't be able to transition from losers to winners when the time comes (thus why I say everyone other than Wemby is easily replaceable).

[scott]

I mean, no. This is the same myopia from most the fan base … and ignores the elephant in the room: why would Wemby stay after the malpractice demonstrated by the front office. I can stipulate to all the faults you’ve identified with Wemby’s game - and that still would be irrelevant in terms of how utterly incompetent the FO has been in preparing and executing the first year of a generational talent’s career.

There are two givens that are incontrovertible: 1) Wemby projects to be a potential all time great; 2) the spurs had its previous franchise player flee for greener pastures.

These are the only two facts that matter. Wemby warrants immediately cultivating a winning culture (regardless of whether results are immediately obtained) and the FO, coaching staff, and team have utterly failed him in that regard.

To that end, Victor has not had a successful rookie campaign. Losing 17 or whatever it was is definitionally not successful. Much of the brunt of how terrible this team has been has been occluded by Detroit. If you take that out, you’d have a different focus on how terrible we’ve been this year. Vic has been demonstrably frustrated with his middling teammates. That’s a horrible sign. The team has actually regressed despite adding the best prospect of the past 20 years. That’s not” success” by any definition of the term. You have a coach who’s employed an incompressibly incompetent defense that allows a three point oriented league to shoot open three pointers. Again, there’s no definition of success that encapsulates what’s been going on.

There’s simply no excuse for how poorly the team has been prepared for, much less executed, year one of wemby. It’s been historically bad — and it didn’t need to be. Simple moves like keeping Cam Payne, giving up on the Sochan PG experiment early on, moving Keldon to the bench, etc could have been done, but weren’t.

The ultimate thing, that no one seems to be discussing, is this: this franchise doesn’t have the leeway it had 15-20 years ago. It needed to be much better prepared for this season, and in the most incompetent manner, was not. Given the nature of the modern NBA, it’s more probable than not that a generational talent whose first year was set on fire for absolutely no good reason will bolt. This franchise has already shown a proclivity to have that happen. So, no, Wemby’s first year cannot be called successful in any meaningful sense of the term.

Quoting merely to say, great post and excellent summation.

[scott]

This is the whole point: they shouldn’t have ranked this year. We’re not in a market like LA or NYC, much less HOU. There’s no good reason to set a year of a prospect who’s career could be limited (due to physique constraints) on fire to “see what they have” with players that had been on the roster for 1-3 years already. The franchise doesn’t have any luxury of time, and acting like it does is the surefire way to ensure Wemby leaves.

Even assuming picks 1 and 7 come out way, those new rookies are going to require the same acclimation process we’re saying Wemby needs. That isn’t going to do us any favors in keeping Wemby. There’s just no strategy with this front office at all, and the fan base needs to stop acting like we have time that we don’t.

Another banger. In the best case scenario (picks #1 and #7), we will still REQUIRE the front office drastically shake up this roster with veteran presence around them. The last thing we need is Wemby, plus two more talented 19 year olds to be surrounded by and learn from this group of losers. For that reason, I'd much rather trade away that TOR pick (and other assets it necessary) for a more proven veteran commodity.

I do like the Jordan Clarkson idea, I think he'd be an ideal vet for this team, and a hometown boy to boot.

[CorrectCrusader]

I mean, no. This is the same myopia from most the fan base … and ignores the elephant in the room: why would Wemby stay after the malpractice demonstrated by the front office. I can stipulate to all the faults you’ve identified with Wemby’s game - and that still would be irrelevant in terms of how utterly incompetent the FO has been in preparing and executing the first year of a generational talent’s career.

There are two givens that are incontrovertible: 1) Wemby projects to be a potential all time great; 2) the spurs had its previous franchise player flee for greener pastures.

These are the only two facts that matter. Wemby warrants immediately cultivating a winning culture (regardless of whether results are immediately obtained) and the FO, coaching staff, and team have utterly failed him in that regard.

To that end, Victor has not had a successful rookie campaign. Losing 17 or whatever it was is definitionally not successful. Much of the brunt of how terrible this team has been has been occluded by Detroit. If you take that out, you’d have a different focus on how terrible we’ve been this year. Vic has been demonstrably frustrated with his middling teammates. That’s a horrible sign. The team has actually regressed despite adding the best prospect of the past 20 years. That’s not” success” by any definition of the term. You have a coach who’s employed an incompressibly incompetent defense that allows a three point oriented league to shoot open three pointers. Again, there’s no definition of success that encapsulates what’s been going on.

There’s simply no excuse for how poorly the team has been prepared for, much less executed, year one of wemby. It’s been historically bad — and it didn’t need to be. Simple moves like keeping Cam Payne, giving up on the Sochan PG experiment early on, moving Keldon to the bench, etc could have been done, but weren’t.

The ultimate thing, that no one seems to be discussing, is this: this franchise doesn’t have the leeway it had 15-20 years ago. It needed to be much better prepared for this season, and in the most incompetent manner, was not. Given the nature of the modern NBA, it’s more probable than not that a generational talent whose first year was set on fire for absolutely no good reason will bolt. This franchise has already shown a proclivity to have that happen. So, no, Wemby’s first year cannot be called successful in any meaningful sense of the term.

Mic drop

[tbdog]

I wonder what embid first years were like. Wasn't Simmons drafted the season after and was listed out for the season?

[Mal]

Young team, playing good basketball - should win from time to time. Bad team loses consistently

[Obstructed_View]

I wonder what embid first years were like. Wasn't Simmons drafted the season after and was listed out for the season?
Embiid didn't play his first two years due to injury.

[Extra Stout]

Taking Sean Elliott to task for just not being able to comprehend Pop’s brilliance is an underrated all-time sniffer take.

[Dex]

I mean I don't really know what is to be gleamed from letting Victor "figure it out" and "observe" him playing because he was always going to do what 19 year old 1st overall picks do, have a few good games some amazing highlights and be mostly inefficient.

Purposely not playing him with a point guard is dumb and purposely playing him with a power forward who is failing horribly at being a point guard is downright fucking stupid.

It's becoming apparent that Sochan might possibly be one of the worst passers on the team so I think we can safely say the experiment failed. Some people just don't have that in their game, and giving him more reps doesn't seem to be working.

[Obstructed_View]

It's becoming apparent that Sochan might possibly be one of the worst passers on the team so I think we can safely say the experiment failed. Some people just don't have that in their game, and giving him more reps doesn't seem to be working.
Don't forget he literally can't dribble the ball and he is the worst shooter of all time.

[rjv]

ST would have imploded if the spurs had gone and wasted their cap space on the likes of a van vleet and cp3 and damian were never going to come here. there was very little the spurs could actually do to dramatically improve this roster. at best, the spurs would have been what the rockets currently are. what we see on the floor now is the result of a liquidation sale that resulted in securing a great asset in Wemby. i don't think the entire roster is junk but there are players on this team that shouldn't be starting or considered the 2nd and 3rd options. vegas was right about this team. it's bad. what none of us know is exactly what the front office tells Wemby. the Spurs aren't going to announce their future plans to anyone but there's a pretty decent chance that they keep their best player in the loop.

[Pauleta14]

The worst part of Sochan's game is that is stops dribling before knowing who to pass the ball. Ends up being pressure and 90% of the time a bad pass

It happens almost everytime...

Sorry for his fans but that's a clear sign of low IQ even more than lack of skill

Just listening to him is enough to see the guy is limited intellectually

[z0sa]

The worst part of Sochan's game is that is stops dribling before knowing who to pass the ball. Ends up being pressure and 90% of the time a bad pass

It happens almost everytime...

Sorry for his fans but that's a clear sign of low IQ even more than lack of skill

Just listening to him is enough to see the guy is limited intellectually

I strongly disagree he has any intellectual problems. He just is 20 and never WANTED to play PG. His basketball dream is setting screens, streaking for highlight dunks and backing down smaller defenders then scoring over them, if one had to guess. Nowhere in his skillset was anyone or should anyone expect a pass first PG.

[poopbox]

It's becoming apparent that Sochan might possibly be one of the worst passers on the team so I think we can safely say the experiment failed. Some people just don't have that in their game, and giving him more reps doesn't seem to be working.

Part of the reason why the anti sniffers crew thinks Pop is a moron is...it never should have been tried in the first place. Sochan CLEARLY never displayed any type of talent or skill that would lead one to believe he could play far away from the basket and make high level passes to other players that would result in points, so why would Pop even try it to start with? It was something that anyone who watched Sochan play for 10 games new was going to be a disaster, and it was, so what exactly was the point? Sochan is just right back to the point he started at when he was drafted as a rookie. Nothing was gained by him "being a point guard" and everything was lost. His confidence was destroyed, he became a laughing stock on social media, his numbers declined, and now people question if he is actually any good at basketball at all. Why would a head coach put a player through that?

[itzsoweezee]

ST would have imploded if the spurs had gone and wasted their cap space on the likes of a van vleet and cp3 and damian were never going to come here. there was very little the spurs could actually do to dramatically improve this roster. at best, the spurs would have been what the rockets currently are. what we see on the floor now is the result of a liquidation sale that resulted in securing a great asset in Wemby. i don't think the entire roster is junk but there are players on this team that shouldn't be starting or considered the 2nd and 3rd options. vegas was right about this team. it's bad. what none of us know is exactly what the front office tells Wemby. the Spurs aren't going to announce their future plans to anyone but there's a pretty decent chance that they keep their best player in the loop.

The spurs didn’t need stars. However, what they did need were competent vets that could teach these young guys how to be professional basketball players. Instead, they chose dysfunction and incompetence. Why? No one knows. Sniffers are guessing that somehow, by putting these young players in these dysfunctional situations, they will magically become competent professionals. This thinking is so dumb, I can’t believe anyone would proclaim it publicly

[Pauleta14]

I strongly disagree he has any intellectual problems. He just is 20 and never WANTED to play PG. His basketball dream is setting screens, streaking for highlight dunks and backing down smaller defenders then scoring over them, if one had to guess. Nowhere in his skillset was anyone or should anyone expect a pass first PG.

I strongly disagree as well :lol

you can learn a lot from anyone by just observing their reactions to diff situations.
The ex I gave about him stopping his dribble before knowing what to do speaks volumes bc it’s not just a cple instances, it’s almost all the freaking time!!!
his emotional intelligence seems fragile too as he’s shown many time.

im not saying he’s a moron, just that he’s not a high IQ guy and his game is more based on reactions than reflexion and anticipations. It’s not the sign of a clever man…

high energy role player ok but never a starter unless specific matchups

[Mugen]

Any 2024 top 5 pick possibly will need an adjustment period too unless it's a finished product

24-25 season might look a lot like this one so get ready

You front runners might wanna just check back in 3 seasons

I hope so because that means Wemby and his team is going to push your precious FO out. BWrong can go back to valeting cars and the old man can finally get a nice window seat in a retirement home :lol

[rjv]

The spurs didn’t need stars. However, what they did need were competent vets that could teach these young guys how to be professional basketball players. Instead, they chose dysfunction and incompetence. Why? No one knows. Sniffers are guessing that somehow, by putting these young players in these dysfunctional situations, they will magically become competent professionals. This thinking is so dumb, I can’t believe anyone would proclaim it publicly

need and market are two entirely entities. i have no problem with the argument that the spurs could have used such players but that begs the question as to what players would have fit this bill who would have 1) wanted to be here and 2) been available.

[weebo]

If the spurs were winning more games than they have now, spurfan would be bitching how we're just a mid team and PATFO are screwing up their draft position. You just can't win with some of these jackasses around here.

[Tyronn Lue]

ST would have imploded if the spurs had gone and wasted their cap space on the likes of a van vleet and cp3 and damian were never going to come here. there was very little the spurs could actually do to dramatically improve this roster. at best, the spurs would have been what the rockets currently are. what we see on the floor now is the result of a liquidation sale that resulted in securing a great asset in Wemby. i don't think the entire roster is junk but there are players on this team that shouldn't be starting or considered the 2nd and 3rd options. vegas was right about this team. it's bad. what none of us know is exactly what the front office tells Wemby. the Spurs aren't going to announce their future plans to anyone but there's a pretty decent chance that they keep their best player in the loop.

I'd put this with what vy65 said. The Spurs weren't going to get a big name, but it doesn't make any difference what fans would have said if they tried. It would only matter to Victor if they tried. Putting nobody around Victor is telling him and his agent "we are giving up on this really fortunate circumstance that fell into our lap before it even gets started, because we don't have anyone already on the roster to put with him". This isn't David's rookie year, Victor stands to gain or lose millions in his career simply by how this franchise sets his trajectory this season. This is likely what Victor, whatever Uncle Dennis he might have in his life and his agent will think about it if the shit doesn't resolve pretty quickly.

[Tyronn Lue]

If the spurs were winning more games than they have now, spurfan would be bitching how we're just a mid team and PATFO are screwing up their draft position. You just can't win with some of these jackasses around here.
Once you get the 1st overall pick, you should stop tanking. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot who hasn't looked around the league at teams who did otherwise. However it's telling that you think it's about winning and losing. The Spurs could lose the same number of games but do it because they are building something. Right now they aren't even sure what they have, much less what to do with it.

[Joseph Kony]

If the spurs were winning more games than they have now, spurfan would be bitching how we're just a mid team and PATFO are screwing up their draft position. You just can't win with some of these jackasses around here.

nah. the general consensus during the offseason was the team would still suck but would at least be competitive because instilling a losing culture in your #1 pick, who by all accounts wants to win, was not good for business. yet here we are :lol

Besides, the Spurs can still lose a lot of games without getting blown out every night en route to the 3rd worst point differential in NBA history while breaking their own record for consecutive losses. People here just want to see them be competitive, at the very least. sniffers always trying to find a way to justify Pop being braindead rofl

[rjv]

I'd put this with what vy65 said. The Spurs weren't going to get a big name, but it doesn't make any difference what fans would have said if they tried. It would only matter to Victor if they tried. Putting nobody around Victor is telling him and his agent "we are giving up on this really fortunate circumstance that fell into our lap before it even gets started, because we don't have anyone already on the roster to put with him". This isn't David's rookie year, Victor stands to gain or lose millions in his career simply by how this franchise sets his trajectory this season. This is likely what Victor, whatever Uncle Dennis he might have in his life and his agent will think about it if the shit doesn't resolve pretty quickly.

but we don't know any of this to be true. that's just pure speculation or transferring our own versions of what some believe wemby actually thinks. we also have no idea about what kind of people are around wemby or what the spurs FO has told him about future plans. it's just pure conjecture.

[weebo]

Once you get the 1st overall pick, you should stop tanking. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot who hasn't looked around the league at teams who did otherwise. However it's telling that you think it's about winning and losing. The Spurs could lose the same number of games but do it because they are building something. Right now they aren't even sure what they have, much less what to do with it.

Ya you stop tanking, if the players on your current squad are any good. Name one player on the Spurs not named Wembayama who would start on any contending team. Btw, this team is not actively tanking, they literally suck. This team doesn't have much talent...the best thing they have going for them is the draft capital, cap space and Wemby. Sorry you guys don't have patience for a rebuild. Tune out and comeback when they start winning cuz its gonna be a bumpy ride.

[Tyronn Lue]

I'd put this with what vy65 said. The Spurs weren't going to get a big name, but it doesn't make any difference what fans would have said if they tried. It would only matter to Victor if they tried. Putting nobody around Victor is telling him and his agent "we are giving up on this really fortunate circumstance that fell into our lap before it even gets started, because we don't have anyone already on the roster to put with him". This isn't David's rookie year, Victor stands to gain or lose millions in his career simply by how this franchise sets his trajectory this season. This is likely what Victor, whatever Uncle Dennis he might have in his life and his agent will think about it if the shit doesn't resolve pretty quickly.

but we don't know any of this to be true. that's just pure speculation or transferring our own versions of what we thinks wemby actually thinks. we also have no idea about what kind of people are around wemby or what the spurs FO has told him about future plans. it's just pure conjecture.
We know they put nobody around Victor. We know they didn't build a plan to incorporate Victor. We know they haven't enforced incorporating Victor on offense. We know 4 other players think Victor needs help at the rim on defense more than they need to guard the 3 point shooters. We actually know a lot. Whatever the team's FO leaves to the imagination is just more evidence they don't have a clue. There's no 3d chess being played here.

[Tyronn Lue]

Ya you stop tanking, if the players on your current squad are any good. Name one player on the Spurs not named Wembayama who would start on any contending team. Btw, this team is not actively tanking, they literally suck. This team doesn't have much talent...the best thing they have going for them is the draft capital, cap space and Wemby. Sorry you guys don't have patience for a rebuild. Tune out and comeback when they start winning cuz its gonna be a bumpy ride.
So are you going to tank for 5 years to have a full starting roster?

You just basically signed off on what others are saying, that the Spurs didn't take Victor seriously and didn't plan for him to be anything this year, only you seem to think it's a 3d chess move.

[weebo]

nah. the general consensus during the offseason was the team would still suck but would at least be competitive because instilling a losing culture in your #1 pick, who by all accounts wants to win, was not good for business. yet here we are :lol

Besides, the Spurs can still lose a lot of games without getting blown out every night en route to the 3rd worst point differential in NBA history while breaking their own record for consecutive losses. People here just want to see them be competitive, at the very least. sniffers always trying to find a way to justify Pop being braindead rofl

Its the same garbage team we had last year..what you all expect? :lol...Wemby is still in the baby deer with the wonky legs stage of his career...maybe DV and KJ are NBA material but the rest of these guys would be playing in the Chinese basketball assoc if it weren't for the Spurs needing to field a team :lol

[Leetonidas]

Ya you stop tanking, if the players on your current squad are any good. Name one player on the Spurs not named Wembayama who would start on any contending team. Btw, this team is not actively tanking, they literally suck. This team doesn't have much talent...the best thing they have going for them is the draft capital, cap space and Wemby. Sorry you guys don't have patience for a rebuild. Tune out and comeback when they start winning cuz its gonna be a bumpy ride.

While the team does suck for sure, it's hard to win when your coach is telling you to leave shooters wide open at the three point line constantly. Spurs would have 5-6 more wins if they ran a competent defensive scheme instead of whatever tf Pop is doing.

[rjv]

We know they put nobody around Victor. We know they didn't build a plan to incorporate Victor. We know they haven't enforced incorporating Victor on offense. We know 4 other players think Victor needs help at the rim on defense more than they need to guard the 3 point shooters. We actually know a lot. Whatever the team's FO leaves to the imagination is just more evidence they don't have a clue. There's no 3d chess being played here.

but these aren't the same things that i bolded and referred to. we do not know what wemby thinks. we do not know if there is an Uncle Dennis in his family. you're just saying it's "likely".

[Joseph Kony]

Its the same garbage team we had last year..what you all expect? :lol...Wemby is still in the baby deer with the wonky legs stage of his career...maybe DV and KJ are NBA material but the rest of these guys would be playing in the Chinese basketball assoc if it weren't for the Spurs needing to field a team :lol

Yeah, plus the most sought after pick in two decades and yet somehow we are even WORSE than the previous season :lmao

[Tyronn Lue]

but these aren't the same things that i bolded and referred to. we do not know what wemby thinks. we do not know if there is an Uncle Dennis in his family. you're just saying it's "likely".
We don't know what anyone thinks. You treat a generational player as being important because of what they could think if you don't, not because you read their minds.

[weebo]

So are you going to tank for 5 years to have a full starting roster?

You just basically signed off on what others are saying, that the Spurs didn't take Victor seriously and didn't plan for him to be anything this year, only you seem to think it's a 3d chess move.

How were the Spurs supposed to know they were going to get Wemby prior to the lottery? Once they got Wemby, things changed. I keep telling y'all this is year 0 of the rebuild. The team is going to be built around Wemby....prior to this season they were drafting on potential...hoping that one of these guys would be the next Kawhi...now things are different...this team is not actively trying to lose...they're evaluating if any of these players are going to fit going forward....Pop said it a few games ago after a loss...things will change through the draft and free agency...not sure how much more he can say without saying that a lot of the guys on the current roster won't be here

[rjv]

We don't know what anyone thinks. You treat a generational player as being important because of what they could think if you don't, not because you read their minds.

even that is speculative because we don't know what kind of conversations the spurs have had with wemby. isn't it just as "likely" that Wemby know what the plan is?

[Bruno]

"Our focus is not immediate other than individual development and team concepts"

This is what Pop said a couple of weeks ago.

This isn't the kind of sentences you would expect a NBA coach say. It is what a G League coach would say and, as crazy as it sounds ,I think Pop is indeed coaching Spurs as a G League team.

[weebo]

"Our focus is not immediate other than individual development and team concepts"

This is what Pop said a couple of weeks ago.

This isn't the kind of sentences you would expect a NBA coach say. It is what a G League coach would say and, as crazy as it sounds ,I think Pop is indeed coaching Spurs as a G League team.

Because we have G league level talent....young, inexperienced, low IQ and overall not very good

[Tyronn Lue]

even that is speculative because we don't know what kind of conversations the spurs have had with wemby. isn't it just as "likely" that Wemby know what the plan is?
You're saying we should just trust the process that produced record losses, because I guess Pop is unlike all the other coaches in history who have coached teams to franchise record losses. There's a plan no one sees, the rose is beneath the snow and as soon as the snow melts we'll see CIA Pop.

I'm not buying it. If I took your angle, there'd be no reason to ever discuss sports based on performance. It could all be part of a bigger plan.

[Tyronn Lue]

Because we have G league level talent....young, inexperienced, low IQ and overall not very good
So the obvious solution is to freeze out Victor in hopes you can grow this raw G league talent into a respectable team. I feel like we agree on about 95% of what we're discussing. We don't agree that it's a "work in progress". It really seems like Pop is just bidding his time or he's tanking intentionally, not sure.

[vy65]

Ya you stop tanking, if the players on your current squad are any good. Name one player on the Spurs not named Wembayama who would start on any contending team. Btw, this team is not actively tanking, they literally suck. This team doesn't have much talent...the best thing they have going for them is the draft capital, cap space and Wemby. Sorry you guys don't have patience for a rebuild. Tune out and comeback when they start winning cuz its gonna be a bumpy ride.

Are the spurs not allowed to sign free agents? Or make trades? The team has ways of adding personnel beyond tanking year after year for high draft picks.

[koriwhat]

You're saying we should just trust the process that produced record losses, because I guess Pop is unlike all the other coaches in history who have coached teams to franchise record losses. There's a plan no one sees, the rose is beneath the snow and as soon as the snow melts we'll see CIA Pop.

I'm not buying it. If I took your angle, there'd be no reason to ever discuss sports based on performance. It could all be part of a bigger plan.

:tu

[HemisfairArena]

Ya you stop tanking, if the players on your current squad are any good. Name one player on the Spurs not named Wembayama who would start on any contending team. Btw, this team is not actively tanking, they literally suck. This team doesn't have much talent...the best thing they have going for them is the draft capital, cap space and Wemby. Sorry you guys don't have patience for a rebuild. Tune out and comeback when they start winning cuz its gonna be a bumpy ride.

So by your own admission, the team is shit and why? because they suck at drafting but yet you want to tank so this front office can draft again. How many times you gotta get burned by bad draft picks before you say,,,hey, maybe this isnt the way to go?

[rjv]

You're saying we should just trust the process that produced record losses, because I guess Pop is unlike all the other coaches in history who have coached teams to franchise record losses. There's a plan no one sees, the rose is beneath the snow and as soon as the snow melts we'll see CIA Pop.

I'm not buying it. If I took your angle, there'd be no reason to ever discuss sports based on performance. It could all be part of a bigger plan.

i'm not saying that at all. all i ever said was that you're making a lot of inferences that are based on no proof (i.e., that victor, his agent or the uncle dennis of his family are going to be irate about having blown his first year). it's the same kind of inference you just made with the post that i just quoted.

[vy65]

How were the Spurs supposed to know they were going to get Wemby prior to the lottery? Once they got Wemby, things changed. I keep telling y'all this is year 0 of the rebuild. The team is going to be built around Wemby....prior to this season they were drafting on potential...hoping that one of these guys would be the next Kawhi...now things are different...this team is not actively trying to lose...they're evaluating if any of these players are going to fit going forward....Pop said it a few games ago after a loss...things will change through the draft and free agency...not sure how much more he can say without saying that a lot of the guys on the current roster won't be here

Except they didn’t. It’s the same core rotation as last year.

The Spurs had been scouting Wemby for 2, possibly 3 years. They intentionally tanked last year to get the opportunity to take him. So the idea that we’re starting on the ground floor with a prospect who we know nothing about is not true. Beyond the spurs, everyone knew Wemby was going to lack physicality and handles. Going in to the year, the prudent thing would have been to get another big and ball handler. They don’t, and instead re-upper a backup PF and committed malpractice with the point Sochan experiment.

Much of the FO apologists seem to assume that this franchise had no clue what it was getting with wemby. That has to be either laughably false or the biggest indictment of the FO’s competence I’ve heard to date. And to be clear, no one is saying that you have to take a shot at CP3 or Dame or any of that. There are moves that could be made that are not some huge splash but would have actually facilities player development and growth. Again, this franchise intentionally did none of that.

[rjv]

Except they didn’t. It’s the same core rotation as last year.

The Spurs had been scouting Wemby for 2, possibly 3 years. They intentionally tanked last year to get the opportunity to take him. So the idea that we’re starting on the ground floor with a prospect who we know nothing about is not true. Beyond the spurs, everyone knew Wemby was going to lack physicality and handles. Going in to the year, the prudent thing would have been to get another big and ball handler. They don’t, and instead re-upper a backup PF and committed malpractice with the point Sochan experiment.

Much of the FO apologists seem to assume that this franchise had no clue what it was getting with wemby. That has to be either laughably false or the biggest indictment of the FO’s competence I’ve heard to date. And to be clear, no one is saying that you have to take a shot at CP3 or Dame or any of that. There are moves that could be made that are not some huge splash but would have actually facilities player development and growth. Again, this franchise intentionally did none of that.

so who would you have signed this past summer?

[vy65]

i'm not saying that at all. all i ever said was that you're making a lot of inferences that are based on no proof (i.e., that victor, his agent or the uncle dennis of his family are going to be irate about having blown his first year). it's the same kind of inference you just made with the post that i just quoted.

Not really. The inferences are: Wemby wants to win, or at least not be historically bad. I think that’s a safe assumption. For your vision to be true, Wemby would have to be on board with the same exact roster that produced a #1 pick, historically bad defense, probable losses of accolades like ROY, DPOY, or all-star nods, and/or blind hope in future high draft picks that quickly produce results. That’s just not plausible.

I agree with you that there are on-going conversations between his team and the spurs. That’s normal. I even think that there was some buy-in on Wembys part to begin the season. But the most plausible sense from Wemby as we sit here in December is, at the very least, doubt as to the FO’s ability to execute on whatever vision they offered him back in the summer.

[vy65]

so who would you have signed this past summer?

There it is.

I would have taken a crack at Austin Reaves and Brook Lopez. I’d have made a run at Malcom Brogdon and Robert Williams after the Dame trade. I would have kicked the tires on an OG or even Jakob trade. I’d have brought Patty back, or another end of the bench vet or two.

[spurraider21]

1740492822082396258

[vy65]

1740492822082396258

"I ain't going to speak for nobody but he didn't want to do all the other (expletive) that Pop did too. Like the learning. He just wants to hoop. Everybody don't want to learn what's in Africa. Learn the maps and he just wanted to hoop. I ain't saying that's right or wrong but he just didn't want to do that."

Most cringeworthy thing I’ve heard in a while if true

[spurraider21]

to be fair, everything LMA said about the spurs was actually quite tame in the interview. he really didnt want to get into the kawhi talk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edt61pSUoZI

[Pauleta14]

I get it.

Kawhi didn't want a substitution dad

[Chinook]

I think there's a balance for how stuff like that can fit into a basketball setting, but it's really easy to overshoot it. Not that Kawhi's the best example of being normal, but the Spurs Medium Three roster was unique in the number of "worldly" people on it. He needs to figure out how to connect with the players he has, especially given the team's aversion to retaining locket room vets.

[spurraider21]

LMA with the tungsten slug from orbit. I think there's a balance for how stuff like that can fit into a basketball setting, but it's really easy to overshoot it. Not that Kawhi's the best example of being normal, but the Spurs Medium Three roster was unique in the number of "worldly" people on it. He needs to figure out how to connect with the players he has, especially given the team's aversion to retaining locket room vets.
in context what he said was quite tame. he refused to get into any of the real kawhi/spurs feud stuff

[MultiTroll]

Most cringeworthy thing I’ve heard in a while if true
Zero surprise.

[Chinook]

in context what he said was quite tame. he refused to get into any of the real kawhi/spurs feud stuff

I didn't realize it was Jack interviewing him. It makes more sense now.

[scott]

How were the Spurs supposed to know they were going to get Wemby prior to the lottery? Once they got Wemby, things changed. I keep telling y'all this is year 0 of the rebuild. The team is going to be built around Wemby....prior to this season they were drafting on potential...hoping that one of these guys would be the next Kawhi...now things are different...this team is not actively trying to lose...they're evaluating if any of these players are going to fit going forward....Pop said it a few games ago after a loss...things will change through the draft and free agency...not sure how much more he can say without saying that a lot of the guys on the current roster won't be here

That's the thing... once they got Wemby, things that needed to change, didn't change (the roster), and that's part of the complaint. The things that did change (the coaching) only did so in a way that is even worse than what it was before.

[rjv]

Not really. The inferences are: Wemby wants to win, or at least not be historically bad. I think that’s a safe assumption. For your vision to be true, Wemby would have to be on board with the same exact roster that produced a #1 pick, historically bad defense, probable losses of accolades like ROY, DPOY, or all-star nods, and/or blind hope in future high draft picks that quickly produce results. That’s just not plausible.

I agree with you that there are on-going conversations between his team and the spurs. That’s normal. I even think that there was some buy-in on Wembys part to begin the season. But the most plausible sense from Wemby as we sit here in December is, at the very least, doubt as to the FO’s ability to execute on whatever vision they offered him back in the summer.

but for the conjecture that i referenced to be true, wemby would have an uncle dennis in the family and/or an agent that would be hasty about the current spurs record. i would doubt that to be the case with Bouna Ndiaye as he has always had a good relation with the spurs FO. if wemby had a rich paul type agent, then maybe i could believe that. we can think whatever we want transpired but it's all conjecture. saying something is more likely doesn't make it so. now, if i start hearing things from wemby that are concerning, then i think it'd be less speculative to make such assertions.

[rjv]

There it is.

I would have taken a crack at Austin Reaves and Brook Lopez. I’d have made a run at Malcom Brogdon and Robert Williams after the Dame trade. I would have kicked the tires on an OG or even Jakob trade. I’d have brought Patty back, or another end of the bench vet or two.

i would have been okay with reeves but all signs pointed to the lakers matching any offer. lopez wasn't going to give up a shot at another title so that he can be a part of a rebuild. i would have had no interest in bogdon or williams. patty would have been a bench coach.

[rjv]

I think there's a balance for how stuff like that can fit into a basketball setting, but it's really easy to overshoot it. Not that Kawhi's the best example of being normal, but the Spurs Medium Three roster was unique in the number of "worldly" people on it. He needs to figure out how to connect with the players he has, especially given the team's aversion to retaining locket room vets.

what pop also need to realize is just how bad an optic it can be: a white man teaching Black people about their history.

[Tyronn Lue]

i'm not saying that at all. all i ever said was that you're making a lot of inferences that are based on no proof (i.e., that victor, his agent or the uncle dennis of his family are going to be irate about having blown his first year). it's the same kind of inference you just made with the post that i just quoted.
It's a fact that Victor is the most hyped 1st overall pick since Lebron. It's also a fact that the Spurs have lost more games with him than without him. Those are undisputable facts. As time goes by, if Victor doesn't get the opportunity to showcase his skills and abilities because 4 other no-name players are hamming it up, it's going to affect how the league views him. Already there's little talk about him in sports media other than he's being frozen out by his teammates and seemingly by his coach. You can call that speculation all you want, I really don't care. Most of what's posted here is speculation, and the suggestions are often based on extrapolation from what is known. You're just standing pat with Pop. I get it, but don't pretend lack of communication from Pop other than telling fans to shut the fuck up is room for positive news. The results don't look so positive.

[vy65]

but for the conjecture that i referenced to be true, wemby would have an uncle dennis in the family and/or an agent that would be hasty about the current spurs record. i would doubt that to be the case with Bouna Ndiaye as he has always had a good relation with the spurs FO. if wemby had a rich paul type agent, then maybe i could believe that. we can think whatever we want transpired but it's all conjecture. saying something is more likely doesn't make it so. now, if i start hearing things from wemby that are concerning, then i think it'd be less speculative to make such assertions.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of ways for a star to leave the franchise that drafted him other than having an Uncle Dennis. Hell, Tim basically made up his mind to leave for ORL, and that was after having enjoyed wild success and winning a ring. Players are motivated by winning, legacy, money, endorsements, and a bunch of other stuff beyond a self-aggrandizing family member or agent. And that’s the heart of the matter: the spurs sold a bill of goods to wemby at the start of the season, and results are not only not materializing, but the situation is worsening. Winning matters, and we’re a far, far way off from winning.

[scott]

but for the conjecture that i referenced to be true, wemby would have an uncle dennis in the family and/or an agent that would be hasty about the current spurs record. i would doubt that to be the case with Bouna Ndiaye as he has always had a good relation with the spurs FO. if wemby had a rich paul type agent, then maybe i could believe that. we can think whatever we want transpired but it's all conjecture. saying something is more likely doesn't make it so. now, if i start hearing things from wemby that are concerning, then i think it'd be less speculative to make such assertions.

I don't think it requires an Uncle Dennis for dissatisfaction to root out of this situation. Wemby is the most touted prospect in 20-years, yet is on pace to be the only "Generational Talent" since the lottery who failed to improve his team (let alone guide them to a franchise worst season). Wemby is a competitor, his statements before the season back that up. Uncle Dennis isn't necessary, Wemby can come to these conclusions himself, just like millions of people around the world do every day when they are unsatisfied with the organizations they work for.

[rjv]

It's a fact that Victor is the most hyped 1st overall pick since Lebron. It's also a fact that the Spurs have lost more games with him than without him. Those are undisputable facts. As time goes by, if Victor doesn't get the opportunity to showcase his skills and abilities because 4 other no-name players are hamming it up, it's going to affect how the league views him. You can call that speculation all you want, I really don't care. Most of what's posted here is speculation, and the suggestions are often based on extrapolation from what is known. If you want to take the sniffer road, that's fine.

stop moving the goal posts. you seem to be unable to comprehend or just choose to ignore what i actually said you were speculating about. none of these add-ons are anything that i referred to as speculative. i said it was speculative to assume that wemby, his agent, or any fictional family member have any sort of position about where the spurs are at currently. you can extrapolate a terrible season for this year but going on to speculate about how wemby and his team are feeling, or will feel, is just conjecture.

[rjv]

Not necessarily. There are plenty of ways for a star to leave the franchise that drafted him other than having an Uncle Dennis. Hell, Tim basically made up his mind to leave for ORL, and that was after having enjoyed wild success and winning a ring. Players are motivated by winning, legacy, money, endorsements, and a bunch of other stuff beyond a self-aggrandizing family member or agent. And that’s the heart of the matter: the spurs sold a bill of goods to wemby at the start of the season, and results are not only not materializing, but the situation is worsening. Winning matters, and we’re a far, far way off from winning.

yes, that's all true but has nothing to do with what i was referring to.

[Tyronn Lue]

but for the conjecture that i referenced to be true, wemby would have an uncle dennis in the family and/or an agent that would be hasty about the current spurs record. i would doubt that to be the case with Bouna Ndiaye as he has always had a good relation with the spurs FO. if wemby had a rich paul type agent, then maybe i could believe that. we can think whatever we want transpired but it's all conjecture. saying something is more likely doesn't make it so. now, if i start hearing things from wemby that are concerning, then i think it'd be less speculative to make such assertions.
I wouldn't think an agent would be as worried about the record as they would be about him not being as involved in the offense as he should be in order to showcase Victor to the NBA viewers. Victor got a lot of talk around the league, every forum of every team probably has a Victor Wembanyama thread, and often their expectations from him are even higher than what you read here. They also know he's not being used to his potential, because 4 scrubs need to eat too. Yes I am considering DV a scrub, compared to the prospect of Victor Wembanyama.

[Tyronn Lue]

stop moving the goal posts. you seem to be unable to comprehend or just choose to ignore what i actually said you were speculating about. none of these add-ons are anything that i referred to as speculative. i said it was speculative to assume that wemby, his agent, or any fictional family member have any sort of position about where the spurs are at currently. you can extrapolate a terrible season for this year but going on to speculate about how wemby and his team are feeling, or will feel, is just conjecture.
Do you know what the word "likely" means?

I was going to buy my gf a ring for her birthday but I didn't want to speculate she'd expect a gift since I cannot read her mind.

[exstatic]

Craig Popplevich April 2022

“There’s a lot to unpack there. Part if it is, it’s just not who we are. It’s not who I am. I can’t operate like that. Which might not be the most intelligent overall philosophy to have, and I get that. But we are who we are. We’re going to go ahead and complete.
“I think the young players gain a real understanding of a philosophically moral space where it’s the right thing to do, to continue to compete. Frankly, I don’t know how I would go to my team and say, ‘Ok guys, we’re not going to complete the way we should,’ or how you’d get that across, or with a wink and a nod. I think you do the players a disservice if they’re not able to go out and perform at the best of their ability.
“I think the lessons to be learned are very important as their careers advance. You hope that in the long run, that value they game from that will help them compete at an even higher level later. I understand the opposite, I just can’t do it.”

Gregg Popovich on why the Spurs were never planning on tanking - Pounding The Rock (https://www.poundingtherock.com/2022/4/12/23021666/gregg-popovich-on-why-the-spurs-were-never-planning-on-tanking)

You understand that Silver said that any teams openly tanking for Wemby would be punished, right? He HAS to say that.

[exstatic]

Do you know what the word "likely" means?

I was going to by my gf a ring for her birthday but I didn't want to speculate she'd expect a gift since I cannot read her mind.
‘Possibly’ would be a better term, since you have no idea and are just speculating. You have a personal relationship with your GF, I hope. You do not have one with Wemby,his family, or his team.

[rjv]

I don't think it requires an Uncle Dennis for dissatisfaction to root out of this situation. Wemby is the most touted prospect in 20-years, yet is on pace to be the only "Generational Talent" since the lottery who failed to improve his team (let alone guide them to a franchise worst season). Wemby is a competitor, his statements before the season back that up. Uncle Dennis isn't necessary, Wemby can come to these conclusions himself, just like millions of people around the world do every day when they are unsatisfied with the organizations they work for.

one of the best classes i took when i was working on my undergrad degree in philosophy was "Philosophy of Mind". i bring that up because one of the arguments about "other minds" seems to apply here. we're all just subscribing a mental state to wemby that may or may not exist. we're conditioned to believe players will become disgruntled based on what other players have done or said in the past (e.g.. kawhii, KD, giannis, embiid, butler) but until i hear something from wemby, or his camp, that suggests he is pissed about his current situation, i have no reason to assume that he would be disgruntled two months into his career because his vanity couldn't handle being the generational talent that had the worst record after his rookie year just because i think that's what he should be thinking.

[vy65]

yes, that's all true but has nothing to do with what i was referring to.

So what? You are assuming there’s only 1 path for a player to leave. That’s just not true.

[rjv]

So what? You are assuming there’s only 1 path for a player to leave. That’s just not true.

again. that's not at all what i've been saying.

[Chinook]

what pop also need to realize is just how bad an optic it can be: a white man teaching Black people about their history.

Did he say black history? I read Pop was basically telling them what Africa was like. Pop's probably been to the continent more than anyone else on those teams. While there are obviously guys who can speak on it better than Pop, I don't think Africans tend to be any more comfortable with black Americans speaking about Africa than white. The intradiaspora conversations are more complicated than that.

[vy65]

one of the best classes i took when i was working on my undergrad degree in philosophy was "Philosophy of Mind". i bring that up because one of the arguments about "other minds" seems to apply here. we're all just subscribing a mental state to wemby that may or may not exist. we're conditioned to believe players will become disgruntled based on what other players have done or said in the past (e.g.. kawhii, KD, giannis, embiid, butler) but until i hear something from wemby, or his camp, that suggests he is pissed about his current situation, i have no reason to assume that he would be disgruntled two months into his career because his vanity couldn't handle being the generational talent that had the worst record after his rookie year just because i think that's what he should be thinking.

It’s absolutely fair to say that no one knows what Wemby is thinking. I don’t think anyone is professing to have the inside track there.

But it’s not reasonable, at all, to assume he’s happy unless and until he comes out and says he’s unhappy. This season has not gone smoothly. The team is historically bad. He has been visibly frustrated with his teammates and overall play of the team. Even if his frustration wasn’t evident, it’s not reasonable to assume that he not “pissed about his current situation” given where the team is. He’s said he wants to win. We know that. It’s absurd to think he’s content, much less happy, where things stand now.

Vic doesn’t owe the franchise anything. The team needs to sell him on a vision of being able to assemble the right parts for him to actuatualize into the player he’s capable of being. “Tanking,” or “development year,” or “seeing what we have,” or any of the other drivel coming from the team is not persuasive evidence of the ability to do what the team needs to assure Vic that this is the right place for him.

[vy65]

again. that's not at all what i've been saying.

I understand. What you’re not understanding is: what you’re trying to say doesn’t matter.

[Tyronn Lue]

‘Possibly’ would be a better term, since you have no idea and are just speculating. You have a personal relationship with your GF, I hope. You do not have one with Wemby,his family, or his team.
This is true, as a cautious pessimist, to me it's likely. In reality to the more level headed world it's a possibility.

[Tyronn Lue]

Did he say black history? I read Pop was basically telling them what Africa was like. Pop's probably been to the continent more than anyone else on those teams. While there are obviously guys who can speak on it better than Pop, I don't think Africans tend to be any more comfortable with black Americans speaking about Africa than white. The intradiaspora conversations are more complicated than that.
Why would Pop pick Africa to teach to black players vs maybe, I don't know, England or Serbia or China?

[MannyIsGod]

Top 10 won’t cut it. Top 3-5 would give us what we need.

Yeah would hate to get a Steph Curry on this team. You seem to keep acting like draft position is the end all be all or that high picks don't miss and you're only doing it because you're hell bent on passing off this season's atrocious basketball as a plan.

[rjv]

I understand. What you’re not understanding is: what you’re trying to say doesn’t matter.


well that's just tautological, isn't it? but the point is lost on your further speculation. of course i understand that none of what we are saying matters; that's the consequence of conjecture.

[rjv]

Did he say black history? I read Pop was basically telling them what Africa was like. Pop's probably been to the continent more than anyone else on those teams. While there are obviously guys who can speak on it better than Pop, I don't think Africans tend to be any more comfortable with black Americans speaking about Africa than white. The intradiaspora conversations are more complicated than that.

with Africa. i agree but i know he has also focused on Black history as well and i think that's where it can get murky. at least from an outsider's point of view.

[Tyronn Lue]

At least there's decent basketball discussion now :lol

[MannyIsGod]

so who would you have signed this past summer?

Fuck signing, they could have simply not waived the 2 useable vets they got from trades!!!

[rjv]

Fuck signing, they could have simply not waived the 2 useable vets they got from trades!!!

i have no idea what happened with payne and although he may have helped win a few games, i'm not torn up about him not being on the roster. i was never that excited about acquiring him to begin with. same goes for bullock; he's not exactly moving the meter over there in h-town.

[heyheymymy]

How do you know not immediately putting talent around Victor tells him we are giving up on this really fortunate thing

I'm guessing Victor is in the loop

How do you know Victor and his management isn't on board with this plan? If I'm Victor and I want to win more than anything I am willing to lay low if it enhances the talent level I an surrounded with and makes my job easier and more successful.

Especially if I'm 7'4 and struggling with conditioning endurance and stamina anyway. Use the time I need to build my body up anyways in order to complete with NBA pace and players as games to lose intentionally so SA can increase the odds of landing a top draft pick and build the dynasty that I want my name associated with.

I'm not thrilled about this season either, and if the rebuild fails some very big questions arise for changes in leadership in San Antonio, indeed. Until then, you can't fail the student until the test is handed in.

[scott]

The Sniffer position has essentially become "How do we know Wemby isn't on board with being historically bad?"

That's telling.

[rankingtear]

Part of the reason why the anti sniffers crew thinks Pop is a moron is...it never should have been tried in the first place. Sochan CLEARLY never displayed any type of talent or skill that would lead one to believe he could play far away from the basket and make high level passes to other players that would result in points, so why would Pop even try it to start with? It was something that anyone who watched Sochan play for 10 games new was going to be a disaster, and it was, so what exactly was the point? Sochan is just right back to the point he started at when he was drafted as a rookie. Nothing was gained by him "being a point guard" and everything was lost. His confidence was destroyed, he became a laughing stock on social media, his numbers declined, and now people question if he is actually any good at basketball at all. Why would a head coach put a player through that?

Sochan has more gravity on ball than off it. Also Sochan is at the point of attack that leaves the backline defense to be small. If he suceeded at that spot then you can get another big wing in the SL to provide rim protection as opposed to a guard. Makes your team more switchable and retain value in deep playoff series. There is big upside with that gamble and I don't think they are completely abandoning it just spreading the responsibilities to other players until Wemby develops more as the primary initiator or his shot develops. Traditional team construction, runs into a wall in a playoff series, getting 2 guards around Wemby is logical for regular season success but as we have seen in Donovan Mitchell teams it gets predictable and very easy to guard once the post season begins. Solving how can you play the biggest lineup while having enough offense is the key to a championship.

[MannyIsGod]

i have no idea what happened with payne and although he may have helped win a few games, I'm not torn up about him not being on the roster. i was never that excited about acquiring him to begin with. same goes for bullock; he's not exactly moving the meter over there in h-town.

Houston isn't exactly on pace to set a top 20 worst all time record, though. Cam Payne fills a role on this roster at its biggest position of need. If I'm weighing the opportunity cost of having an actual PG and running a stable offense vs developing bottom of the bench players that will likely never amount to anything then its a no brainer to me that they should have kept him. I was shocked that they waived him considering the current roster construction. I was willing to go with it because it seemed like they had a plan with Sochan and thought he was going to be a usable point guard, but that turned out to be completely off base (or if it was the plan they were absolute fools for thinking it was a good one). Its early in the year so things can turn around, but frankly this season is a diaster for Sochan and Vassell so far. Wemby has plenty to work on and he seems legit AF so I don't think its the end of the world for him, but I can't state how bad I think this is for Devin and I think a large part of that is him not having point guards (this is definitely the case for Sochan). Its early enough in the year that both of these players can turn it around, but I also really worry about the lack of structure for these players having lasting effects. The bad habbits that have developed are palpable and I don't think you can just flip a switch on that shit. I think this all matters less for Keldon (who I legit think is now the clear #2 on this team - that's how bad Devin has looked) who can create on his own much more consistently.

[MannyIsGod]

The Sniffer position has essentially become "How do we know Wemby isn't on board with being historically bad?"

That's telling.

I don't think its reasonable for Wemby's team to be sounding any alarm bells in year one under any circumstances, TBQH. It would signal a real problem with the type of player he's going to be IMO and we've gotten no indication this is the case but I think people thinking that are really just projecting based off Kawhi trauma.

The real worry is if they let Pop win 10 games this year and keep the job. Which is a legit worry, but I still think its unlikely. There is already palpable pressure mounting from places due to how bad the Spurs are, and I think its only going to grow if they don't get better throughout the year.

[vy65]

The Sniffer position has essentially become "How do we know Wemby isn't on board with being historically bad?"

That's telling.

It’s “I could kill someone in the middle of fifth avenue and they’d still vote for me” tier

[John B]

As of right now the Spurs are poised to get two top ten picks, would have a huge cap to sign/trade caliber vet(s), to add to a 2nd year Wemby who would be much stronger by next season. I don’t know what people are bitching about.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It’s “I could kill someone in the middle of fifth avenue and they’d still vote for me” tier

Or people could just not think like you.

[MannyIsGod]

"Huge"? Its only 40 million, which if they were planning on tanking they shouldn't have signed Collins and eaten into the cap.

[scott]

I don't think its reasonable for Wemby's team to be sounding any alarm bells in year one under any circumstances, TBQH. It would signal a real problem with the type of player he's going to be IMO and we've gotten no indication this is the case but I think people thinking that are really just projecting based off Kawhi trauma.

The real worry is if they let Pop win 10 games this year and keep the job. Which is a legit worry, but I still think its unlikely. There is already palpable pressure mounting from places due to how bad the Spurs are, and I think its only going to grow if they don't get better throughout the year.

Of course, nothing exists in a vacuum. It is not reasonable for Wemby and his team to already be planning how they'll roll out the press release of him demanding a trade... but I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to be approaching the future with the same critical eye as anyone. The worse the team is this year just puts even more pressure on future years to show marked progress. We're on pace to win 11 games. If that comes to fruition, they are justified in expecting major changes (up to and including the head coach and GM). If they won 24 games, the pressure wouldn't need to be as intense next season and you might be okay with Pop and Wright and whatever vision they are pitching.

Just like any human being, the choice to leave for a different employer is cumulative. Most people wouldn't get shit on for years at their job but decide to stay because the last couple of weeks they've had donuts in the break room. All of the bad vibes created for an historically bad season is just more of a negative hole to dig out of.

And if Wemby IS perfectly okay with being historically bad then what does that say about him? That's he patient and mature? Or that he's a loser? Fortunately, his body language says that he is not okay with it, at all.

[vy65]

As of right now the Spurs are poised to get two top ten picks, would have a huge cap to sign/trade caliber vet(s), to add to a 2nd year Wemby who would be much stronger by next season. I don’t know what people are bitching about.

Because they’re two top-ten picks in a below-average draft, are going to require years to develop, and the non-Wemby team is an absolute dumpster fire. The coaching, schemes, etc all suggest the old man has lost it.

They had cap space and the ability to make trades last year, and we saw what they did. Tell us when they’re going to flip into winning mode?

[Chinook]

I mean, no. This is the same myopia from most the fan base … and ignores the elephant in the room: why would Wemby stay after the malpractice demonstrated by the front office. I can stipulate to all the faults you’ve identified with Wemby’s game - and that still would be irrelevant in terms of how utterly incompetent the FO has been in preparing and executing the first year of a generational talent’s career.

This is overblown an exactly what I was talking about. Dude is an elite prospect. But that doesn't mean he's going to instantly be an actualized franchise player. I don't disagree with a lot of the criticism you're going to levy through the rest of this post, and I have plenty of posts in my history fighting that fight during the off-season. But folks -- including Victor -- need to try to take their eyes off the greater picture and focus on the player they have. That guy is playing well for where he is in his career but is too raw to make the positive impact a lot of people expected. This was apparent in summer league, and it was apparently in pre-season.

We've got to get this idea out of the way that no team has ever been worse after drafting a generational talent. The Sonics finished with a worse record after Durant's rookie year and only improved three games in his second year (which was still worse than the year before they drafted him). Ignoring the guys were generational players but who weren't obvious top picks, I would assume it's more common for teams to take a win-now posture after drafting a blue-chip, but it's not required. That's even more true for a team that just started to tank.

This does not mean, of course, that the team isn't playing this wrong. But the record doesn't bother me, and if that were the basis for Wemby's frustration, tough titties. No one's going to honor a trade request because guy putting up his efficiency stats can't stand one year of losing. In real life, we don't have to worry about that. But in the fears/fantasy of some STers, Wemby's displeasure is magnified from a personnel issue to an existential crisis.


There are two givens that are incontrovertible: 1) Wemby projects to be a potential all time great

No, he has the potential to be an all-time great. SOOOO much has to happen to get him there. This isn't a semantic issue. People are subbing in that "projection" for the person, and it's messing with them.


2) the spurs had its previous franchise player flee for greener pastures.

This is just true, but the implication that Wemby is the fourth franchise player is the issue. Dude is 19 and doesn't know what he needs in terms of scheme and personnel in order to be great. He's not capable to dragging the team to titles. The team cannot treat him the way they treated actual franchise players yet. They didn't treat their previous franchise player like the player he would become either. They had no idea what they had, so they just coached him like a regular player and reaped the rewards.


Wemby warrants immediately cultivating a winning culture (regardless of whether results are immediately obtained) and the FO, coaching staff, and team have utterly failed him in that regard.

Easier said than done. Again, I was all in favor of vets, competition and a firmer coaching hand. I still think that was the best option. Why they chose to do things this way, to double down on their current crop, is up in the air. Giving Vassell and Collins extensions seems premature now. It seems probable that the Spurs liked the bones of their team. I don't know if it's a salvageable situation with better coaching, but ultimately, it makes more sense to kept their tanking posture for the rest of the year at this point.


To that end, Victor has not had a successful rookie campaign. Losing 17 or whatever it was is definitionally not successful.

See, that's fine. Losing is fine. It's not going to destroy him to lose games. How they've lost games is the issue worth discussion, but the only people really thinking this is bad for Wemby are those who are more focused on his image or legacy than his play. A lot of what I'm hearing is how embarrassing it must be for Wemby that the Spurs are bad or how they're not making him look like a future GOAT candidate. Who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. What matters is that he's learning and improving, and while there is more of that than it can sometimes seem, I would say that part has been dicey. But his performance is fine. It's right in line with guys like James and Durant (and remember, KD also had the losing).


Vic has been demonstrably frustrated with his middling teammates.

This is projection. Victor has been looking frustrated, but we don't know why. Maybe it's because he's not getting the ball every time he wants. Maybe it because when he does get the ball, he's not as successful as he'd like and he's constantly pressing trying to "make up" for it. Maybe he and Pop are having a disagreement over whether Victor should have "limits" put on him in terms of structure, and the failure for the current thing working bothers him. Maybe Victor is used to his moves getting him better looks in France and he's annoyed by how he's not really open. Maybe he's constantly reading Chet's box scores and really wants to catch up to him. Maybe he's going through non-basketball stuff. It's player-fandom to pretend like you know and to use that to create divisions. I'd be glad that Victor is frustrated with his production, because he knows he can get better. Not being satisfied with a good rookie season is not a bad thing.


The team has actually regressed despite adding the best prospect of the past 20 years. That’s not” success” by any definition of the term. You have a coach who’s employed an incompressibly incompetent defense that allows a three point oriented league to shoot open three pointers. Again, there’s no definition of success that encapsulates what’s been going on.

The Spurs aren't having a successful year so far. But Wemby's year and the Spurs' year are not the same. He's hitting realistic personal goals right now. The team should be better, qualitatively more than anything else. But that's not how you can measure Wemby, especially when you consider that like many rookies Victor isn't actually this big positive player a statement like yours assume he should be. It's very possible that if Wemby were not on the team but the roster were exactly the same otherwise that the team would have a better record. Of course, Pop is doing some indefensibly dumb things like playing Sochan at PG. But it's also not helping them that their highest-usage player also happens to be one of their least effecient and most turnover prone players on the team. Victor isn't solely the victim of bad play.


Simple moves like keeping Cam Payne, giving up on the Sochan PG experiment early on, moving Keldon to the bench, etc could have been done, but weren’t.

We'll see if moving Keldon to the bench a fix at all, let alone an "obvious fix". The original "bench Johnson" logic assumed Collins would start and Jeremy would play the three. I was never a fan of Sochan playing PG. I thought that was the joke solution to the roster conundrum. But if you're one of those people who thinks it was ever worth trying, who cares? No it doesn't matter that it took 20ish games rather than 10. Wemby isn't going to walk in six years because he had to play 10 extra games. I remain annoyed with Pop's lineup and think Payne should've been given a chance if Graham doesn't deserve one. But I'm more annoyed in the sense of my current enjoyment of the team than I am because I fear it will do long-term damage, especially to Wemby.


The ultimate thing, that no one seems to be discussing, is this: this franchise doesn’t have the leeway it had 15-20 years ago.

That's because it's not really a good statement. They have more leeway now than they did with Kawhi. Victor will be a Spur for years. By the time Kawhi was a franchise player, the team only had like two years of him.


Given the nature of the modern NBA, it’s more probable than not that a generational talent whose first year was set on fire for absolutely no good reason will bolt. This franchise has already shown a proclivity to have that happen.

See to me this is just crying and panicking, and it's more sad than it is angering. This, all this, this whole year -- it's not a big deal. It feels like it because you're living in it. But in terms of the long view, it'll be okay. I shouldn't have to kneel down by your rocking form and whisper "Kawhi's gone. He can't hurt you anymore." But a lot of Spurs fans have taken that unpleasantness and made it into a victim complex. Kawhi was one of the easiest departures in terms of what he gave the team while he was there and what he left behind. The Spurs got a title out of him and at worst didn't make the right trade to move him. Imagine Orlando having one generational talent walk, having their second elite talent demand a trade and already are trying to build with the prospect who could be their third. Or NOLA who had to trade two all-timers and had their potential third one eat his way into irrelevance. Neither team got a title from any of those guys. For fucks sake -- Let Wemby actually develop into a star before pissing your pants at the thought of losing him.

[scott]

"They'll have cap space!" is ultimate S-Tier Level Snifferism. Have you people learned nothing from being a fan of this team? :lol

[Chinook]

with Africa. i agree but i know he has also focused on Black history as well and i think that's where it can get murky. at least from an outsider's point of view.

As far as I know, he'd bring in speakers rather than giving lectures.

[NASpurs]

Because they’re two top-ten picks in a below-average draft, are going to require years to develop, and the non-Wemby team is an absolute dumpster fire. The coaching, schemes, etc all suggest the old man has lost it.

They had cap space and the ability to make trades last year, and we saw what they did. Tell us when they’re going to flip into winning mode?

That guy you quoted keeps saying the Spurs are playing chess while everyone else keeps playing checkers so you know what type of sniffer you're dealing with :lol

[scott]

We've got to get this idea out of the way that no team has ever been worse after drafting a generational talent. The Sonics finished with a worse record after Durant's rookie year and only improved three games in his second year (which was still worse than the year before they drafted him). Ignoring the guys were generational players but who weren't obvious top picks, I would assume it's more common for teams to take a win-now posture after drafting a blue-chip, but it's not required. That's even more true for a team that just started to tank.

No, we absolutely do not have to get this idea out of the way. I did not label Wemby a Generational Talent, the rest of the basketball world did. Durant may have turned out to be one of the best players of our generation, but he was not labelled a Generational Talent coming into the NBA, and that's what we are talking about. You can't simply change the comparison to "Good players who team's weren't better after they were drafted" because that's not what we are talking about. Call it "Generational Prospect" or something else if that helps you - but the fact is that all the other players with this level of hype coming into the league all made their teams better, and Wemby's is significantly worse. This is just a simple, undeniable fact.

Now, in terms of what that fact means, I think there a few potential explanations:


Wemby isn't worthy of being labelled a Generational Prospect
The franchise has utterly failed at surrounding the talent with a suitable team
The coaching is so inept that not even the Generational Prospect can overcome it


I don't believe option 1, and we literally have threads debating whether it's #2 or #3.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because they’re two top-ten picks in a below-average draft, are going to require years to develop, and the non-Wemby team is an absolute dumpster fire. The coaching, schemes, etc all suggest the old man has lost it.

They had cap space and the ability to make trades last year, and we saw what they did. Tell us when they’re going to flip into winning mode?

There have been plenty of examples of prospects emerging later in the draft process particularly when you consider the international players. Just because you cannot see a prospect you like doesn't mean much.

[John B]

"Huge"? Its only 40 million, which if they were planning on tanking they shouldn't have signed Collins and eaten into the cap.

The guy’s expiring who the Spurs could trade at deadline. And at what cost? 7.5 mil a year??

[heyheymymy]

We spent the whole DJ era saying we didn't want to be fans of a treadmill team

It was contention or tank for talent. No in between.

Now we got the main piece to build around, that is the hardest part and we got it and he looks legit.

From there it's only a matter of time and a few more lucky turns of fate and we are locked in with young affordable talent and future flexibility in space and draft capital to really control our destiny. Much better to be in position to potentially run a multi title dynasty instead of blowing our load like some 2 pump chump for one ring at best before contention window slams shut because you fools can't handle some foreplay first.

Ask yourself: does adding a star to rookie wemby plus a tank roster get you a ring? WCF? Let's hear who thinks it does? How does say Dame or the equivalent make rookie wemby able to play more than 6-8 mins before critical fatigue starts creating mistakes? Dame won't make wemby know to not bite on fakes, or what natural position he's best at, etc. These things take time and imagine paying a premium for Dame just to waste it on rookie mistakes, pissing Dame off and now we have a malcontent who will be make 60MM, yes 60 as in basically half the whole cap on a guy who aged past our timeline.

Also that assumes say a Dame Lillard even AGREED to join SA. This isnt 2k. You don't just push X and buy the name. It's real life. Dame or the equivalent has to WANT to play in SA. His agent has to CONCUR that such a move is good for them.

Dame is reaching the end of his elite timeline. He wants a ring and joined Bucks as a pretty good shot at that hope. If he wanted to carry scrubs and rookies he would've just stayed in POR. Same goes for other names.

We also just got done dumping vets because they were hogging mins from our developing youth. Now you guys want vets? What is say Malcolm B. going to do for us but push young players to the bench and give us just enough wins to toil in mediocrity and cost us draft odds at a top pick.

Which, you say 2024 draft is weak, well then better lose even more games then right? Because a weak draft is done offering impact level prospects after possibly just 3 picks then SA better be top 3 I'd say. Then consider the Pistons historically bad season and that probably explains Spurs losing streak since it's an arms race to the bottom with the likes of DET, a team plummeting at a historic rate.

Plus you have the TOR pick protected through 6 so SA better occupy one of those top 5 spots to help push TOR into a range that conveys their pick to SA.

[heyheymymy]

You guys all said 2-3 seasons from rookie wemby to contention

It's not even 0.5 seasons in, currently

/thread

[Chinook]

No, we absolutely do not have to get this idea out of the way. I did not label Wemby a Generational Talent, the rest of the basketball world did. Durant may have turned out to be one of the best players of our generation, but he was not labelled a Generational Talent coming into the NBA, and that's what we are talking about. You can't simply change the comparison to "Good players who team's weren't better after they were drafted" because that's not what we are talking about. Call it "Generational Prospect" or something else if that helps you - but the fact is that all the other players with this level of hype coming into the league all made their teams better, and Wemby's is significantly worse. This is just a simple, undeniable fact.

What do you think this paragraph does for you? Do you think saying "b-but Wemby was hyped up to be more" means that teams can't lose more games. Like we can have a semantic discussion on the term, but either it's going to be so small that the sample size doesn't mean anything or it's going to be big enough to find counter examples.


Now, in terms of what that fact means, I think there a few potential explanations:



Wemby isn't worthy of being labelled a Generational Prospect


How do you think that's a legit description? How is it not "The hype is unrealistic, especially in terms of immediate impact"? Wemby can be the future GOAT but still start off needing to grow into himself You literally just talked about Durant being a generational player despite not being immediately identifiable as such by your standards.


I don't believe option 1, and we literally have threads debating whether it's #2 or #3.

We know you don't believe in option 1, either the way you wrote it or the way I did. That's just player-fandom written in another form. It's exactly what I've been criticizing. The dude is a teenager trying to overcome biomechanical challenges who has to deal with people like you saying he can't have a good season unless he's improving his team.

Forget the hype. He's not a draft pick nor a trade prospect. He's on the team. Develop him based on what he needs to do to get better. Stop trying to compare him to what is apparently an extremely small list of previous players to determine if he's being "failed" or not.

[spurraider21]

Chinook those sonics are a terrible example since yes they added durant but simultaneously lost ray allen and rashard lewis, their two best players, in that same offseason

the spurs lost KBD :lol

[spurraider21]

You guys all said 2-3 seasons from rookie wemby to contention

It's not even 0.5 seasons in, currently

/thread
nobody

literally nobody who is upset at PATFO right now, is suggesting that the spurs should be a contending team right now

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Stop, I'm not playing shitty FuzzyLumpkins games. I'm not chasing you debating this kind of minutia when it comes to semantics or fallacies. Back when I was in college, I was all about that (and folks on this board probably remembers when I used to have those types of arguments for days). But it's a waste of time now.

Huh wonder what happened yesterday afternoon that could have gotten you worked up.


Robinson might have not "felt" ready, but he was physically mature and was able to do what was needed of him from his first game. It doesn't matter if he needed to be coached or not. He wasn't running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It's like how Tim thought he sucked in his first SL game even though he was actually pretty good.



Whether Brown taught him how to play basketball or not is pointless, because he knew how to play from his very first game. That doesn't mean that he was a post-up specialist from his first game. There were probably a lot of nuances that took years to pick up. That's not what determines if a player is "ready to be fed". Maybe David knew from Navy how to stand at the dunker spot and when to move to get the ball. Maybe it was taught to him during the off-season by Brown. Maybe it was instinctual. That's not a distinction that matters. What matters is that he, even as a first-overall pick phenom who was going to a struggling franchise, fit into an offense and played off others rather than constantly calling for the ball and turning it over trying to do too much.

The whole conversation about Robinson has been twisted in an attempt to disagree with whatever I said. The rawer Robinson was, the more it proves the point I was making, which is that treating Wemby the way he is being treated, rather than reigning him in and giving him structure, is hurting him, and that deferring to him like he's a star in his prime doesn't make sense. Robinson came up as an example of the Spurs supposedly forcing the ball to. My reply to that was that Robinson was much more refined in his ability to fit on an NBA court and understood better how to get points. You jumped in to say, "You're a liar, Robinson felt like he didn't know how to play basketball until Larry taught him." But all that shows is how much more perspective Robinson has. Even a David who "didn't know how to play basketball" still knew how to play in the NBA more than Wemby does now. As I said before, that's actually reasonable given their age difference and the more complex league Victor is trying to learn.



These paragraphs I guess show you don't actually read the posts you respond to? I've been a huge proponent in the Spurs running plays for Wemby this whole season. I don't think it's a stretch to say I'm the single most vociferous poster when it comes to that. But running plays is a two-way street. Wemby has to actually do his part in those plays, and far too often he breaks plays off trying to get open. We've talked about Victor constantly slipping screens and running to the paint while calling for the ball rather than doing is job and getting the ball-handler open. Yes, some of those plays are going to result in other players scoring, but if he learns to do his job, the defense will actually get put into conflict, which will result in much easier looks for him. It's like that play where Sochan didn't make a hard pass to Wemby and instead kicked it out to Osman, and Cedi drove, pulled Wemby's man and dished it to Victor for an easy look. Those are the kinds of looks he should be getting, but instead he's running around making bad seals and calling for the ball while three or four defenders are standing there waiting.



Vassell can get his own shot. No, Devin doesn't actually get more FGA than Victor, and Wemby's USG% dwarfs everyone else's. But even if that were the case, it's easier and often times more necessary for him to take those shots. Victor can't even dribble against an engaged defense. He needs to be set up, which for all the reasons I've been talking about, isn't happening right now. Victor is playing center right now and doesn't have an NBA-level skill-set for the position. There's a lot of critical development that he needs to have that goes beyond scoring. The reality though is that a lot of player's efforts are directly tied to their scoring attempts, so the Spurs are going to have to take a balanced approached. They aren't doing that now.



This ain't it, man. No, I'm not a player-fan of everyone else on the team. That's just trying to rubber-glue your way out of the situation. You're seeing this as a "sides" thing and assuming that I'm being anti-Wemby and that being anti-Wemby makes a person pro-Wemby's enemies. It's ridiculous.



Yes. Everyone would be helped by the team functioning well, which would be much easier if they had a coach who was interested in actually coaching.



Why would they run their offense through a player who doesn't know how to play NBA offense? Why not let him learn while not being the focal point? David didn't lead his team in touches as a rookie. It's not because he "didn't know how to play" either. Dude was amazing as a rookie, like OMFG amazing like legit probably the best rookie season ever good. But the Spurs still didn't run the offense through him. David went on to be a man that basically did everything for his team and at his peak absolutely dominated the ball. That was him at his peak as 28-year-old. The gap between what Robinson was and what Wemby is lightyears long. Fuck, Wemby can grow into a superstar and still not be as good a prime David was. Dude was just unreal.



You keep waffling between being insulted that I suggested some fans would be happy with Wemby taking an obscene number of shots and acting like I'm silly for not wanting that. It's lame, man. The only way you can try to make your point is to compare Wemby to guys who are much better than him right now and who are much further along in their careers. It's indicative of the player-fandom that's clouding your judgement. It's like how you thought it was silly that Haliburton is getting superstar touches or how in this post you suggested that Wemby is anywhere near rookie Robinson (who in case you didn't know was better than rookie Duncan, not worse). You're substituting what you want him to be with what he is, and when you run into situations where the reality has limitations, you look for reasons to blame others players. Dude is 19, and he does need help. He needs structure and instruction. He doesn't need more touches or for everyone to pass him the ball in any situation.

Dude needs to be coached like an elite prospect and not catered to like an established superstar. I know the difference between those things, but I don't think you do.

Into 1160 words of not "debating this kind of minutia"

[weebo]

There it is.

I would have taken a crack at Austin Reaves and Brook Lopez. I’d have made a run at Malcom Brogdon and Robert Williams after the Dame trade. I would have kicked the tires on an OG or even Jakob trade. I’d have brought Patty back, or another end of the bench vet or two.

Reaves balked and chose the lakers....all the other players you mentioned would have made the Spurs a .500 team at best and then you'd be bitching about how this mid team is killing our draft position....bottom line you guys are insufferable and bitch about winning or losing...I've been here long enough to see what spurfan is bruddah...nice try

[GAustex]

Chinook those sonics are a terrible example since yes they added durant but simultaneously lost ray allen and rashard lewis, their two best players, in that same offseason

the spurs lost KBD :lol

Don’t forget Landale

[HemisfairArena]

We spent the whole DJ era saying we didn't want to be fans of a treadmill team

It was contention or tank for talent. No in between.

Now we got the main piece to build around, that is the hardest part and we got it and he looks legit.

From there it's only a matter of time and a few more lucky turns of fate and we are locked in with young affordable talent and future flexibility in space and draft capital to really control our destiny. Much better to be in position to potentially run a multi title dynasty instead of blowing our load like some 2 pump chump for one ring at best before contention window slams shut because you fools can't handle some foreplay first.

Ask yourself: does adding a star to rookie wemby plus a tank roster get you a ring? WCF? Let's hear who thinks it does? How does say Dame or the equivalent make rookie wemby able to play more than 6-8 mins before critical fatigue starts creating mistakes? Dame won't make wemby know to not bite on fakes, or what natural position he's best at, etc. These things take time and imagine paying a premium for Dame just to waste it on rookie mistakes, pissing Dame off and now we have a malcontent who will be make 60MM, yes 60 as in basically half the whole cap on a guy who aged past our timeline.

Also that assumes say a Dame Lillard even AGREED to join SA. This isnt 2k. You don't just push X and buy the name. It's real life. Dame or the equivalent has to WANT to play in SA. His agent has to CONCUR that such a move is good for them.

Dame is reaching the end of his elite timeline. He wants a ring and joined Bucks as a pretty good shot at that hope. If he wanted to carry scrubs and rookies he would've just stayed in POR. Same goes for other names.

We also just got done dumping vets because they were hogging mins from our developing youth. Now you guys want vets? What is say Malcolm B. going to do for us but push young players to the bench and give us just enough wins to toil in mediocrity and cost us draft odds at a top pick.

Which, you say 2024 draft is weak, well then better lose even more games then right? Because a weak draft is done offering impact level prospects after possibly just 3 picks then SA better be top 3 I'd say. Then consider the Pistons historically bad season and that probably explains Spurs losing streak since it's an arms race to the bottom with the likes of DET, a team plummeting at a historic rate.

Plus you have the TOR pick protected through 6 so SA better occupy one of those top 5 spots to help push TOR into a range that conveys their pick to SA.

Detroit has drafted the #7 pick, #1 pick, #5 pick, #5 pick,,,,all lottery,,,,in the last 4 years,,,,so tell me again how tanking works. Detroit crushes your whole theory of tanking.

[spurraider21]

you tank until you get the talent needed to build a team

we lucked into the fact that we only had to go tank mode for 1 year and landed fucking wemby. that doesnt mean we have to pull a 180, trade all our draft picks and try to assemble a team to compete for the championship right away. but its time to start seeing development and improvement of players. see a cohesive scheme and identity come together.

even if you just want to "see what we have" its inexcusable that "what we have" is performing worse than last year despite adding wemby. wemby, while by no means a finished product, still has a positive on/off, so you cant argue that even this unfinished version of him is making the team worse

and that falls on the coaching

and on the micro level, the shit defense either means the coaching is culpable for teaching a dreadful scheme, or the coaching is culpable for being shit at holding players accountable, especially when the same coach used to pull actual good players like green/white for any minor mistake

the not playing a PG thing is outright malpractice and is sabotaging the team

[FuzzyLumpkins]

BB mentioned this earlier and I tend to agree with them. Sochan, Vassell, and Johnson have taken a step back. We need to be able to partner Wemby at least with an all star and we at best have a bunch of role players.

[baseline bum]

Because they’re two top-ten picks in a below-average draft, are going to require years to develop, and the non-Wemby team is an absolute dumpster fire. The coaching, schemes, etc all suggest the old man has lost it.

They had cap space and the ability to make trades last year, and we saw what they did. Tell us when they’re going to flip into winning mode?

Ugh tanking for a 14% chance at Nikola Topic when you already have the best prospect since LeBron.

[weebo]

BB mentioned this earlier and I tend to agree with them. Sochan, Vassell, and Johnson have taken a step back. We need to be able to partner Wemby at least with an all star and we at best have a bunch of role players.

it only looks that way because they're less than wemby...we had no one better on the team to compare them...and no all star is coming to SA...how many came when we had the big 3...the only way this team is getting another all star is by drafting and developing one

[weebo]

Ugh tanking for a 14% chance at Nikola Topic when you already have the best prospect since LeBron.

it's not about drafting one particular player...its about drafting guys with actual talent..something you can get with a higher draft pick and something this team sorely needs

[FuzzyLumpkins]

it only looks that way because they're less than wemby...we had no one better on the team to compare them...and no all star is coming to SA...how many came when we had the big 3...the only way this team is getting another all star is by drafting and developing one

I don't see any of them as two way players. Vassell is closest but he came out the gate looking like poo.

[vy65]

This is overblown an exactly what I was talking about. Dude is an elite prospect. But that doesn't mean he's going to instantly be an actualized franchise player. I don't disagree with a lot of the criticism you're going to levy through the rest of this post, and I have plenty of posts in my history fighting that fight during the off-season. But folks -- including Victor -- need to try to take their eyes off the greater picture and focus on the player they have. That guy is playing well for where he is in his career but is too raw to make the positive impact a lot of people expected. This was apparent in summer league, and it was apparently in pre-season.

We've got to get this idea out of the way that no team has ever been worse after drafting a generational talent. The Sonics finished with a worse record after Durant's rookie year and only improved three games in his second year (which was still worse than the year before they drafted him). Ignoring the guys were generational players but who weren't obvious top picks, I would assume it's more common for teams to take a win-now posture after drafting a blue-chip, but it's not required. That's even more true for a team that just started to tank.

This does not mean, of course, that the team isn't playing this wrong. But the record doesn't bother me, and if that were the basis for Wemby's frustration, tough titties. No one's going to honor a trade request because guy putting up his efficiency stats can't stand one year of losing. In real life, we don't have to worry about that. But in the fears/fantasy of some STers, Wemby's displeasure is magnified from a personnel issue to an existential crisis.

We’re not going to be able to have a conversation if you think Wemby doesn’t project to be the top player in the league in a manner of years. Yes, I agree he is raw, has flaws, is not fully actualized, etc. That’s why I said that I could stipulate to all of his faults. Much of your response starts with the premise that, because Wemby isn’t fully realized yet, much of what has been going on with the team is fine. That’s absurd. It’s reckless to the point of malpractice to throw a season away simply because your rookie isn’t fully developed. Players with his physical profile typically don’t have 20 year careers. The team lost 17 on a row and is currently on another 5 game skid. That has psychological impacts on the players, helps develop bad habits, and is a sure fire way to show Wemby that the team is rudderless. Development would be a silver lining to the losing cloud, but most of the players on the team will likely be gone in the next few years (or at least should be) - and - what we’ve seen are not players worth developing in the first place. There are real problems here, so focusing on Wembys current progression is a hand-waver non-sequittur.

Fixating on where Wemby is now in his career is literally besides the point. He’s a rookie, not a finished product. I didn’t even think that needed to be said. What we’re discussing is the teams efforts, or lack thereof, in helping Wemby become the player he projects to be. And from the development perspective - which is maybe the most significant one - there is no straight faced way to say this year has been a success.

Also, cherry picking Durant doesn’t make the point you want it to. Durant was the consensus #2 pick, and was projected to be elite, but not generational. There is a long list of generational talents that made an immediate impact. But more to the point, the issue isn’t Wemby’s immediate impact on the team - it’s the team’s moves to surround Wemby.



No, he has the potential to be an all-time great. SOOOO much has to happen to get him there. This isn't a semantic issue. People are subbing in that "projection" for the person, and it's messing with them.

This literally is semantics. He projects, as in, much has to happen for him to reach his projections.


This is just true, but the implication that Wemby is the fourth franchise player is the issue. Dude is 19 and doesn't know what he needs in terms of scheme and personnel in order to be great. He's not capable to dragging the team to titles. The team cannot treat him the way they treated actual franchise players yet. They didn't treat their previous franchise player like the player he would become either. They had no idea what they had, so they just coached him like a regular player and reaped the rewards.

If you think that Wemby isn’t a franchise player, then this conversation is over because I literally don’t know what to say. The team absolutely should, and must, treat him like the franchise player he is. This isn’t a Kawhi situation, so that comparison is irrelevant.


Easier said than done. Again, I was all in favor of vets, competition and a firmer coaching hand. I still think that was the best option. Why they chose to do things this way, to double down on their current crop, is up in the air. Giving Vassell and Collins extensions seems premature now. It seems probable that the Spurs liked the bones of their team. I don't know if it's a salvageable situation with better coaching, but ultimately, it makes more sense to kept their tanking posture for the rest of the year at this point.

I agree, and, it’s problematic that we’re in this position to begin with.


See, that's fine. Losing is fine. It's not going to destroy him to lose games. How they've lost games is the issue worth discussion, but the only people really thinking this is bad for Wemby are those who are more focused on his image or legacy than his play. A lot of what I'm hearing is how embarrassing it must be for Wemby that the Spurs are bad or how they're not making him look like a future GOAT candidate. Who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. What matters is that he's learning and improving, and while there is more of that than it can sometimes seem, I would say that part has been dicey. But his performance is fine. It's right in line with guys like James and Durant (and remember, KD also had the losing).

Again, if you think losing is fine, there’s not much more I can say. The point of the game is to win. Consistently and historically losing is never fine. He’s an elite competitor - consistent losing takes a psychological toll, both on him and the team. Bad habits are forming.

As for who gives a shit - likely Wemby. No one is going to have warm fuzzies coming in to a losing situation that lacks a clear direction on how to improve or is actually taking steps to improve. You make it seem like it’s just “tough titties that you didn’t get RoY,” but the problem is much worse. We are not talking about a couple games where he doesn’t get his numbers - we’re talking about a team that literally has 4 wins and 20 something losses, is on track to win less than 12 games, has no vets, has piss poor defense, and on and on. You ask who gives a shit - Wemby certainly does and the franchise absolutely should.


This is projection. Victor has been looking frustrated, but we don't know why. Maybe it's because he's not getting the ball every time he wants. Maybe it because when he does get the ball, he's not as successful as he'd like and he's constantly pressing trying to "make up" for it. Maybe he and Pop are having a disagreement over whether Victor should have "limits" put on him in terms of structure, and the failure for the current thing working bothers him. Maybe Victor is used to his moves getting him better looks in France and he's annoyed by how he's not really open. Maybe he's constantly reading Chet's box scores and really wants to catch up to him. Maybe he's going through non-basketball stuff. It's player-fandom to pretend like you know and to use that to create divisions. I'd be glad that Victor is frustrated with his production, because he knows he can get better. Not being satisfied with a good rookie season is not a bad thing.

Occam’s razor. Much of what you say (not getting the ball in the right spots, not getting the ball enough, etc) points to frustration with the quality of play of his teammates. He doesn’t pass the ball to himself. This laundry list reeks of the lady protesting too much.


The Spurs aren't having a successful year so far. But Wemby's year and the Spurs' year are not the same. He's hitting realistic personal goals right now. The team should be better, qualitatively more than anything else. But that's not how you can measure Wemby, especially when you consider that like many rookies Victor isn't actually this big positive player a statement like yours assume he should be. It's very possible that if Wemby were not on the team but the roster were exactly the same otherwise that the team would have a better record. Of course, Pop is doing some indefensibly dumb things like playing Sochan at PG. But it's also not helping them that their highest-usage player also happens to be one of their least effecient and most turnover prone players on the team. Victor isn't solely the victim of bad play.

Just saying Wemby is having a successful year doesn’t make it so. His year is inextricable from the teams. Their success has a direct impact on his. More to the point, the various coaching and personnel issues that have been highlighted in this thread go to show serious developmental gaps. Wemby should be playing with a competent ball handler, he should be playing with a big who can secure a rebound, and should be playing in a defensive scheme that does not chronically leave three point shooters open. Those gaps have a direct, negative affect on his year, and his development.


We'll see if moving Keldon to the bench a fix at all, let alone an "obvious fix". The original "bench Johnson" logic assumed Collins would start and Jeremy would play the three. I was never a fan of Sochan playing PG. I thought that was the joke solution to the roster conundrum. But if you're one of those people who thinks it was ever worth trying, who cares? No it doesn't matter that it took 20ish games rather than 10. Wemby isn't going to walk in six years because he had to play 10 extra games. I remain annoyed with Pop's lineup and think Payne should've been given a chance if Graham doesn't deserve one. But I'm more annoyed in the sense of my current enjoyment of the team than I am because I fear it will do long-term damage, especially to Wemby.

Much of this is what posters have been saying in this thread, so mostly agreed.


That's because it's not really a good statement. They have more leeway now than they did with Kawhi. Victor will be a Spur for years. By the time Kawhi was a franchise player, the team only had like two years of him.

See to me this is just crying and panicking, and it's more sad than it is angering. This, all this, this whole year -- it's not a big deal. It feels like it because you're living in it. But in terms of the long view, it'll be okay. I shouldn't have to kneel down by your rocking form and whisper "Kawhi's gone. He can't hurt you anymore." But a lot of Spurs fans have taken that unpleasantness and made it into a victim complex. Kawhi was one of the easiest departures in terms of what he gave the team while he was there and what he left behind. The Spurs got a title out of him and at worst didn't make the right trade to move him. Imagine Orlando having one generational talent walk, having their second elite talent demand a trade and already are trying to build with the prospect who could be their third. Or NOLA who had to trade two all-timers and had their potential third one eat his way into irrelevance. Neither team got a title from any of those guys. For fucks sake -- Let Wemby actually develop into a star before pissing your pants at the thought of losing him.

Appreciate the pop psychology, but maybe, just maybe, you’re thinking this isn’t a big deal is, like, your opinion man. But this part reads like revisionist history, in part, and utter mediocrity, in other part. The spurs are not Orlando, or NOLA, or Charlotte. There’s a pedigree here - how do you think “the culture” came about in the first place. That other franchises fucked up their relationships with their players doesn’t somehow excuse or justify it here.

Again, I get that you think Wemby isn’t the best player in the league as we sit here today. No one has said as much. The point here is whether the team is taking all the required steps in the right direction. In many ways that you agree, it has not. If you don’t think that’s problematic, especially given recent history, mazol tov. But to fuck up this badly, with many unforced errors, is and should be concerning to any reasonable observer.

I don’t have a crystal ball, and I hope to god I’m wrong about literally everything I’ve said. I’d gladly take that. But saying everything is fine because Wemby isn’t god yet is really really myopic and frankly inane.

[baseline bum]

it's not about drafting one particular player...its about drafting guys with actual talent..something you can get with a higher draft pick and something this team sorely needs

If that top 5 pick busts you have wasted a year of development for your franchise guy for absolutely nothing, and tons of top 5 picks bust: Bagley, Wiseman, Patrick Williams, Josh Jackson, Bender, Dunn, etc. You don't have to throw your season to get a good draft pick. I wouldn't want them to tank if both Flagg and Boozer were in this draft class much less this grab bag the 24 draft class looks like. Tanking is for when you have nothing and are desperate to land a cornerstone. The Spurs have that cornerstone.

[poopbox]

Sochan has more gravity on ball than off it. Also Sochan is at the point of attack that leaves the backline defense to be small. If he suceeded at that spot then you can get another big wing in the SL to provide rim protection as opposed to a guard. Makes your team more switchable and retain value in deep playoff series. There is big upside with that gamble and I don't think they are completely abandoning it just spreading the responsibilities to other players until Wemby develops more as the primary initiator or his shot develops. Traditional team construction, runs into a wall in a playoff series, getting 2 guards around Wemby is logical for regular season success but as we have seen in Donovan Mitchell teams it gets predictable and very easy to guard once the post season begins. Solving how can you play the biggest lineup while having enough offense is the key to a championship.

Astonishing amount of copium and sniffing here. Funny that you mention Donovan Mitchell teams get predictable in the playoffs, where we have only ever seen Jeremy Sochan teams be literally the 3rd worst and 2nd worst team in basketball.

This is actually like a picture perfect textbook sniffer post.

"Let me explain to you how this incredibly stupid thing that we all watched play out with our own eyes and failed so spectacularly that we could legit only win 3 games doing it is actually a really smart move and something we shouldn't abandon yet, and one of the main reasons we don't want to abandon it is because we don't want to be stuck doing nothing but making the playoffs every year like teams that have Donovan Mitchell do" :rollin

We need a sniffer of the year and a sniff of the year award. I'd easily nominate your post for the latter :rollin

[vy65]

Reaves balked and chose the lakers....all the other players you mentioned would have made the Spurs a .500 team at best and then you'd be bitching about how this mid team is killing our draft position....bottom line you guys are insufferable and bitch about winning or losing...I've been here long enough to see what spurfan is bruddah...nice try

*slurp* *slurp* *slurp*

[scott]

What do you think this paragraph does for you? Do you think saying "b-but Wemby was hyped up to be more" means that teams can't lose more games. Like we can have a semantic discussion on the term, but either it's going to be so small that the sample size doesn't mean anything or it's going to be big enough to find counter examples.


How do you think that's a legit description? How is it not "The hype is unrealistic, especially in terms of immediate impact"? Wemby can be the future GOAT but still start off needing to grow into himself You literally just talked about Durant being a generational player despite not being immediately identifiable as such by your standards.



We know you don't believe in option 1, either the way you wrote it or the way I did. That's just player-fandom written in another form. It's exactly what I've been criticizing. The dude is a teenager trying to overcome biomechanical challenges who has to deal with people like you saying he can't have a good season unless he's improving his team.

Forget the hype. He's not a draft pick nor a trade prospect. He's on the team. Develop him based on what he needs to do to get better. Stop trying to compare him to what is apparently an extremely small list of previous players to determine if he's being "failed" or not.

These things matter beyond just semantic conversations because people are humans with feelings and there are media outlets who make a living pointing these things out, and you can be rest assured Wemby WILL be reminded that he's the only Generational Talent who failed to make his team better, and everyone will come to the same conclusions I have - that this isn't really a Wemby problem, this is a Spurs management problem, which will fuel the fire of pulling him out of SA.

Is this a hangover from the Kawhi trauma? Maybe. But whether its an overreaction or not, it is in the best interest of the Spurs to treat Wemby properly, and lighting his rookie season on fire, as it has been so eloquently stated, is not the way to do it. I'd be fine being 20-62 this season with some progress shown. He'll, I'd even be find being 15-67 so long as we saw some signs of growth. Maybe those are still to come, but right now there is no reason to believe that.

I'm just some random Spurs fan, and I was able to figure it out - what do you think people with an interest in seeing Wemby in a larger market will do?

[vy65]

If that top 5 pick busts you have wasted a year of development for your franchise guy for absolutely nothing, and tons of top 5 picks bust: Bagley, Wiseman, Patrick Williams, Josh Jackson, Bender, Dunn, etc. You don't have to throw your season to get a good draft pick. I wouldn't want them to tank if both Flagg and Boozer were in this draft class much less this grab bag the 24 draft class looks like. Tanking is for when you have nothing and are desperate to land a cornerstone. The Spurs have that cornerstone.

And, what was the point of collecting Atlanta’s, Dallas’s, Charlotte’s, and Toronto’s picks?

[Chinook]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) those sonics are a terrible example since yes they added durant but simultaneously lost ray allen and rashard lewis, their two best players, in that same offseason

the spurs lost KBD :lol

The Spurs lost a bunch of players over the years and are basically bottomed out. The Sonics were 31-51. It's not like they were a playoff team randomly blew it up. When you become a horrible team, you're inevitably going to be horrible for more than a year.

[Chinook]

These things matter beyond just semantic conversations because people are humans with feelings and there are media outlets who make a living pointing these things out, and you can be rest assured Wemby WILL be reminded that he's the only Generational Talent who failed to make his team better, and everyone will come to the same conclusions I have - that this isn't really a Wemby problem, this is a Spurs management problem, which will fuel the fire of pulling him out of SA.

People are humans who are more resilient than storybook characters. There are plenty of Wemby haters out there than will find any excuse to attack him. It's completely understandable if he has moments where he struggles with that. He's a kid, and gaining confidence and finding yourself re key parts of growing up. If Wemby needs the instruction, he needs it. If he needs to see the limitations of his game in order to accept that instruction, he needs to. Ultimately what matters is that Wemby reaches his potential, not that he has a story that everyone agrees is cool.


Is this a hangover from the Kawhi trauma? Maybe. But whether its an overreaction or not, it is in the best interest of the Spurs to treat Wemby properly, and lighting his rookie season on fire, as it has been so eloquently stated, is not the way to do it. I'd be fine being 20-62 this season with some progress shown. He'll, I'd even be find being 15-67 so long as we saw some signs of growth. Maybe those are still to come, but right now there is no reason to believe that.

We don't disagree on there being an issue. We disagree somewhat on why there's an issue and the effects of that issue. I have full confidence that Wemby is strong enough to endure losing. It SHOULD be something he doesn't like, He should want to win. He should want that even if he's 100-percent on board with a long-term plan pitched by the team that involves one (or even a couple) losing season. Part of struggling is overcoming that struggle. A lot of what people think are critical issues getting Wemby the ball is other teams learning how to defend what Victor came into the league doing. He has to evolve, and the team's way of using him has to evolve. A good coach would be doing that. Pop hasn't been but is making noise that he wants to start. His rookie year isn't lit on fire though. He's still going to be the ROY and maybe even an all-defense team. There are going to be things he doesn't like, but that's part of the process, not a sign things are broken .

[MannyIsGod]

The guy’s expiring who the Spurs could trade at deadline. And at what cost? 7.5 mil a year??

Uh, did you miss his extension?

[exstatic]

Yeah would hate to get a Steph Curry on this team. You seem to keep acting like draft position is the end all be all or that high picks don't miss and you're only doing it because you're hell bent on passing off this season's atrocious basketball as a plan.

So, the exception is now the rule?

You can find one player, maybe, at most every draft slot. You can find shitloads in the top 1-5 slots. Far better odds striking gold there, and you know it, Manny. Be better.

[exstatic]

Fuck signing, they could have simply not waived the 2 useable vets they got from trades!!!

Payne made it pretty clear he didn’t want to be here, so are you really crying over Reggie Bullock?

[rankingtear]

Astonishing amount of copium and sniffing here. Funny that you mention Donovan Mitchell teams get predictable in the playoffs, where we have only ever seen Jeremy Sochan teams be literally the 3rd worst and 2nd worst team in basketball.

This is actually like a picture perfect textbook sniffer post.

"Let me explain to you how this incredibly stupid thing that we all watched play out with our own eyes and failed so spectacularly that we could legit only win 3 games doing it is actually a really smart move and something we shouldn't abandon yet, and one of the main reasons we don't want to abandon it is because we don't want to be stuck doing nothing but making the playoffs every year like teams that have Donovan Mitchell do" :rollin

We need a sniffer of the year and a sniff of the year award. I'd easily nominate your post for the latter :rollin

UTA blew up that team and CLE is one season away from doing so. This is not really about Sochan vs Mitchell, it is getting a wing in the SL as opposed to a guard.

[exstatic]

You guys all said 2-3 seasons from rookie wemby to contention

It's not even 0.5 seasons in, currently

/thread

My take was always 2 year tank from the start, and we’re 1.5 in. Others may have had different ideas.

[HemisfairArena]

So, the exception is now the rule?

You can find one player, maybe, at most every draft slot. You can find shitloads in the top 1-5 slots. Far better odds striking gold there, and you know it, Manny. Be better.

Detroit in the last 3 years has drafted the #1 overall followed by the #5 overall and again #5 overall,,,,,they are 2-29 and have the record for most consecutive losses.

[HemisfairArena]

And, what was the point of collecting Atlanta’s, Dallas’s, Charlotte’s, and Toronto’s picks?

To package for an all star player,,,,but our front office sucks at drafting so they choose to tank and draft.

[MannyIsGod]

So, the exception is now the rule?

You can find one player, maybe, at most every draft slot. You can find shitloads in the top 1-5 slots. Far better odds striking gold there, and you know it, Manny. Be better.

We've been over this, the odds aren't far better. You said you understood shit but its quite apparent you don't. They are BETTER, but overall it's not a great deal better. Furthermore, this is without taking into consideration depth of the draft and/or drafting skill. You really fucking suck at this.

[scott]

My take was always 2 year tank from the start, and we’re 1.5 in. Others may have had different ideas.

Was that always your take? I recall your take was that you only tank when there is a generational talent, and since there wasn’t one in this draft, there is no need to tank. You’ve also admitted that you didn’t think the Spurs would tank this season, and only changed your mind after you saw how bad they sucked.

There is no reason to to lie here, there is a search function to pull receipts if need be.

[exstatic]

Was that always your take? I recall your take was that you only tank when there is a generational talent, and since there wasn’t one in this draft, there is no need to tank. You’ve also admitted that you didn’t think the Spurs would tank this season, and only changed your mind after you saw how bad they sucked.

There is no reason to to lie here, there is a search function to pull receipts if need be.

Ten games in. That’s when I figured it out this year. That’s what the latest search engine will pull up. Some of you still haven’t figured it out.

[scott]

Ten games in. That’s when I figured it out this year. That’s what the latest search engine will pull up. Some of you still haven’t figured it out.

So long as we all understand what “always” means

[MannyIsGod]

Ten games in. That’s when I figured it out this year. That’s what the latest search engine will pull up. Some of you still haven’t figured it out.

Pretty amazing that you admit that you got it wrong before but somehow don't hold out the chance that you're still getting it wrong.

[MannyIsGod]

Just an FYI.

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/19657372/the-best-picks-every-nba-draft-slot

Odds in vacuum are fine but discount variability and the variables that lead to variance at your own peril.

[Tyronn Lue]

Ten games in. That’s when I figured it out this year. That’s what the latest search engine will pull up. Some of you still haven’t figured it out.
So "always" starts at 10 games in?

[taps]

Just an FYI.

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/19657372/the-best-picks-every-nba-draft-slot

Odds in vacuum are fine but discount variability and the variables that lead to variance at your own peril.

Incorrect use of the word very