Keep, Hold, Shop

[TD 21]

Keep: Long term fixtures.

Wembanyama - Needs to develop a source of efficient, volume offense, but a better rebounder than advertised.

Vassell - Hasn't diversified game, but still a malleable, solid starter.

Champagnie - Confidence has returned. One dimensional, but a needed one, at scarce position, on bargain long term contract.


Hold: Only real value is to Spurs at this point.

Sochan - Shot has improved, but still far from a spacer and bad at virtually everything else.

Branham - Hasn't extended range and still bad at virtually everything else.

Wesley - Probably still bad at best, but should still be given a legit run before the '24 draft likely buries him for good.

Bassey - Multiple significant knee injuries in short order for undersized, athletically reliant player puts future in question.

Cissoko - A project who needs a workable shot to graduate to prospect.

Barlow - Should also be given a legit run before season is out to know whether to convert to standard contract.

Bediako and Duke Jr. - Typical 2-ways, will probably be part of roster churn during or after season.


Shop: Useful veterans who aren't the best fits.

Johnson - Has actually made some strides (mostly IQ related, though it'll never be a strong suit), but still lacks a true strength.

Collins - If he's going to continue to almost exclusively play non Wembanyama minutes (and he should), jumped the gun and overpaid on extension.

Jones - Shot hasn't improved a lick.

Mamukelashvili - A fine deep bench player, but still lacks a true strength.

Osman, McDermott, Graham - Back end rotational veterans, take whatever they can fetch.

[Leetonidas]

Keep: Victor

Shop: Literally everyone else


Not even joking. This season has really shown us that the Spurs are full of low IQ players and absolutely no two way threats. Vassell is decent but I don't think he is untouchable. He hasn't shown the progression you'd hope and the times Wemby has been out and the team needed him to step up, he didn't. Not to mention injury concerns. I want to give Sochan the benefit of the doubt since Pop is fucking his development up but at this point but PG issues aside he doesn't even look like an NBA caliber player half the time out there and his defense has been non existent this season. Collins and Branham can GTFO. Everyone else is basically irrelevant and don't move the needle so they should all be shopped if a good deal is out there

[TD 21]

^ Not untouchable, but Vassell (and Champagnie) is more valuable to them than what they can get for him, so they might as well just keep him.

[Tyronn Lue]

Champagnie isn't even NBA caliber.

[spurraider21]

im not really sold on champagnie or anything but with is contract theres no real point to letting him go. he's virtually free and can be cut any time without penalty. he also has some positional versatility with his size so he's not really subject to a roster crunch the way a guy like bassey might be.

i dont think you actively shop keldon yet. he's in year 1 of a 4 year contract on pretty good value. i've long been of the opinion that he's not a long term fit for the team but right now he's the only fearless attacker we have... there's no rush to trade him imo unless we are blown away by an offer

[rjv]

would have been nice to have a "bench" or "keep as a sub" category,

[The Truth #6]

I like the list overall but think that we still need star talent infusion and any trades will become more apparent then. Also, with the lack of dominant coaching, it's hard for me evaluate some of these guys. For example, Keldon is not a star of course but could be a solid/great 6 or 7th man who is ok being in SA. Some guys will refuse to play here like what's his nuts, the guy from PHX. We don't have to dump everybody because they aren't a star, and these guys won't really help get talent in a trade, though a KJ for Quickly has my intrigue in theory. Anyway, there are ok 8-12th men here at the least who are still young.

[scott]

Keep: Victor

Shop: Literally everyone else


Not even joking. This season has really shown us that the Spurs are full of low IQ players and absolutely no two way threats. Vassell is decent but I don't think he is untouchable. He hasn't shown the progression you'd hope and the times Wemby has been out and the team needed him to step up, he didn't. Not to mention injury concerns. I want to give Sochan the benefit of the doubt since Pop is fucking his development up but at this point but PG issues aside he doesn't even look like an NBA caliber player half the time out there and his defense has been non existent this season. Collins and Branham can GTFO. Everyone else is basically irrelevant and don't move the needle so they should all be shopped if a good deal is out there

If we are just talking about the immediate term (as in between now and the trade deadline), then you can make a case for some other players in the "Hold" category. Anything longer term than that and Leetonidas has the correct answer.

[Dejounte]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

[rjv]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

i don't know about all of this but it does seem as if pop is hinting at starting to give minutes out to players that have been deeper on the bench.

[CorrectCrusader]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

He looked good yesterday. I'm fine with this.

[Spurs Homer]

Keep Wemby

Starting with Pop -down to the ballboys and Brian Wright - gtfo

[spurraider21]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.
i was very discouraged by Wesley's summer league/preseason but yeah, let the kid play some. he's looked nice in very limited action last couple of games.

[TD 21]

This "blow it up" notion sounds nice in theory, but it's not how things work in reality which is why I tried to take a more practical, nuanced look at the situation.


If we are just talking about the immediate term (as in between now and the trade deadline), then you can make a case for some other players in the "Hold" category. Anything longer term than that and Leetonidas has the correct answer.

Unless they're included as filler in a trade or roster space becomes an issue before next season, there's no reason to get rid of the holds that soon because as I said, they have virtually no value league wide.

For example, let's say Branham is worth a mid-late 2nd. They're better off holding onto him for at least another season than accepting that; just make him earn a rotation spot going forward.

[aissagholi7981]

I understand the frustration, however you guys are just not being realistic. Truth of the matter is, nobody is really going anywhere. Nobody wants our players, stop thinking they're worth more to anyone else than us. We are probably going to get a top 3 pick next year, hopefully draft a PG or Sarr. We aren't going to make flashy moves in the offseason, maybe go after Holiday if we can't draft the PG we want and we will go into 2024 looking something like:

Sarr
Vassell
Johnson
Sohan
Wemby

That's it, there is no miracle trade(s) that we are going to do.

IF we end up with that lineup, I'm not too mad about it, assuming all players put in a good off-season and we see some improvement all around, that team should be fighting for a playoff stop next year. Stop it with all this nonsense blowing it all up, it is a business at the end of the day. Nobody on the Spurs cares about Spurstalk meltdowns and what they should do. Just relaxxxx and hope for a top 3 pick.

Side note, if anyone thinks Pop is EVER going to get fired, they should be banned from this site for being so stupid.

[spurs10]

I understand the frustration, however you guys are just not being realistic. Truth of the matter is, nobody is really going anywhere. Nobody wants our players, stop thinking they're worth more to anyone else than us. We are probably going to get a top 3 pick next year, hopefully draft a PG or Sarr. We aren't going to make flashy moves in the offseason, maybe go after Holiday if we can't draft the PG we want and we will go into 2024 looking something like:

Sarr
Vassell
Johnson
Sohan
Wemby

That's it, there is no miracle trade(s) that we are going to do.

IF we end up with that lineup, I'm not too mad about it, assuming all players put in a good off-season and we see some improvement all around, that team should be fighting for a playoff stop next year. Stop it with all this nonsense blowing it all up, it is a business at the end of the day. Nobody on the Spurs cares about Spurstalk meltdowns and what they should do. Just relaxxxx and hope for a top 3 pick.

Side note, if anyone thinks Pop is EVER going to get fired, they should be banned from this site for being so stupid. Good post and sadly right on. Hope I'm shocked, but I don't expect to see much of anything until the draft....again.

[poopbox]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

I started to call BS on this. But having Wesley play well, which means that our best point guard was just toiling away in the g league for no reason...is pretty much in line for how its been going with Pop as our head coach...so fuck it...I'm in.

[scott]

This "blow it up" notion sounds nice in theory, but it's not how things work in reality which is why I tried to take a more practical, nuanced look at the situation.



Unless they're included as filler in a trade or roster space becomes an issue before next season, there's no reason to get rid of the holds that soon because as I said, they have virtually no value league wide.

For example, let's say Branham is worth a mid-late 2nd. They're better off holding onto him for at least another season than accepting that; just make him earn a rotation spot going forward.

I don't think our positions are in disagreement. Surely we aren't going to give our players away for free, as we still need players on the team.

My point is that long-term, only Wemby has proven a keep. Everyone else is only here for the reason you mentioned: they have no value in dumping them. I don't see that as a "hold" as much as I do a "stuck" - but I'm still looking to upgrade them at the first opportunity.

[Chinook]

Keep: Long term fixtures.

Wembanyama -Obviously.

Johnson - He's a lightning rod for a lot of the frustration fans are having, but he seems to be the player who most fits what the Spurs want to do offensively. You can upgrade over him, but you can't just take him out and think the team is better.

Sochan - I have no idea why Pop is coaching defense the way he is, but it's basically making Jeremy look incompetent on that end. His offense has improved from an individual standpoint, but Pop again hurt that by making Sochan a PG for no reason.


Hold: Only real value is to Spurs at this point.

Vassell - He's on the fence right now. The Spurs don't really have a choice to see if he can figure it out. He's certainly less actualized than Johnson is, but you have to hope that 2024 Vassell sees the congealing of his game that 2023 Keldon has.

Jones - Most actualized player on the team. Gets an absurd amount of hate given who he is. He'd benefit from not being jerked around, and you can't trade him in good conscience after destroying his value by suggesting that Sochan and Branham are better PGs than him.

Branham - He needs to stop being the starting PG in the worst way, but you can draft a young player with potential, put him in a bad position and then give up on him.

Wesley - Similar to Branham at this point. He's not a keeper, but you give him the rest of the year and let him compete in camp. Hopefully there's real competition for his minutes now.

Barlow - I like him, and he should be getting real minutes now, as Mamu cannot play the five. They still have another two years of option value.

Collins - Literally can't be traded this year, so you may as well try him out as a single big off the bench.

Cissoko -- They gave him a huge contract for the type of player he is. Gotta let it play out a bit more.

Shop: Useful veterans who aren't the best fits.

Champangie - His contract might trick someone into thinking he's an "asset", but the reality is that he needs to develop to be in that camp. He's not a must-move, but he's definitely in that "if he can grease the wheels on a trade, he's gone" tier.

Bassey - Same as Champ. He's to centers what a lot of Tre-haters think Jones is to PGs. If he were four inches taller, he'd be an interesting center to try with Wemby. But dude is 6-8. Pass.

Mamukelashvili - Too small to play center. Might be able to play PF next to Wemby, but he's a journeyman for a reason.

Osman, McDermott, Graham - The Spurs need vets, but at this point, they could definitely look to sell those guys.

[SpursBills]

Keep: Long term fixtures.

Wembanyama -Obviously.

Johnson - He's a lightning rod for a lot of the frustration fans are having, but he seems to be the player who most fits what the Spurs want to do offensively. You can upgrade over him, but you can't just take him out and think the team is better.

Sochan - I have no idea why Pop is coaching defense the way he is, but it's basically making Jeremy look incompetent on that end. His offense has improved from an individual standpoint, but Pop again hurt that by making Sochan a PG for no reason.


Hold: Only real value is to Spurs at this point.

Vassell - He's on the fence right now. The Spurs don't really have a choice to see if he can figure it out. He's certainly less actualized than Johnson is, but you have to hope that 2024 Vassell sees the congealing of his game that 2023 Keldon has.

Jones - Most actualized player on the team. Gets an absurd amount of hate given who he is. He'd benefit from not being jerked around, and you can't trade him in good conscience after destroying his value by suggesting that Sochan and Branham are better PGs than him.

Branham - He needs to stop being the starting PG in the worst way, but you can draft a young player with potential, put him in a bad position and then give up on him.

Wesley - Similar to Branham at this point. He's not a keeper, but you give him the rest of the year and let him compete in camp. Hopefully there's real competition for his minutes now.

Barlow - I like him, and he should be getting real minutes now, as Mamu cannot play the five. They still have another two years of option value.

Collins - Literally can't be traded this year, so you may as well try him out as a single big off the bench.

Cissoko -- They gave him a huge contract for the type of player he is. Gotta let it play out a bit more.

Shop: Useful veterans who aren't the best fits.

Champangie - His contract might trick someone into thinking he's an "asset", but the reality is that he needs to develop to be in that camp. He's not a must-move, but he's definitely in that "if he can grease the wheels on a trade, he's gone" tier.

Bassey - Same as Champ. He's to centers what a lot of Tre-haters think Jones is to PGs. If he were four inches taller, he'd be an interesting center to try with Wemby. But dude is 6-8. Pass.

Mamukelashvili - Too small to play center. Might be able to play PF next to Wemby, but he's a journeyman for a reason.

Osman, McDermott, Graham - The Spurs need vets, but at this point, they could definitely look to sell those guys.

Can you expand on this?

[Seventyniner]

Can Collins be traded on draft day? Or not until free agency?

[SPURt]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.
From your thumbs to God’s smartphone screen. I’m pulling for Cissoko.

[TimmyBuckets]

Other than Wemby, they value Vassell and Sochan. In that order. Everyone else can be packaged.

[Chinook]

Can Collins be traded on draft day? Or not until free agency?

Should be tradeable as soon as the regular season ends.

[Chinook]

Can you expand on this?

Pop is playing a really archaic style of defense where Sochan is following the opponent's best scorers around and is asked to check them without any modern concept of help. Modern defense focuses on getting dribbles picked up and making your rotations if you really have to help someone. The Spurs basically don't help unless it's a called double, a gamble or the guy's already in the paint. Sochan should be using his big body to funnel his guys into help while also being able to switch onto any player screening for his man. Being a versatile defender should mean that you can defend in a lot of different situations on the fly. Pop seems to take it as being able to guard 1-4 or 1-5, which suggests that Jeremy should be guarding these players directly and not just flowing around improve the defense wherever he goes.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

As Chinook correctly pointed out, putting young players in unfavorable situations, watching them not be up for it and then quickly giving up on them because of this, should not be a reason to get rid. At the very least because it has destroyed whatever value they might have had. For that reason, I wouldn't shop any of the young guys unless they're a part of an advantageous larger trade.

See if you can get anything for the vets, which is unlikely to be of any significance - a couple more 2nds or not , who cares.

I'd shop some of the picks the Spurs have - the Toronto pick, the Chicago - and see if it can get them someone good for next year and on. For example, if Toronto don't expect to keep Anunoby their own 1st back might be better value than other offers they'd get - 2 or 3 picks in the 20s aren't more valuable than a single one in the 8-12 range. They probably won't do it out of spite because they'd look really bad, but who knows, they've seen so much talent go for nothing.

[Pauleta14]

All the popologists keep saying it's smart to developp young players blabla

Their age is irrelevant to the issue!

Their lack of skills and true potential is the real concern

Aside of Wemby there isn't one player in this roster that shows real elite potential and worth the time developping

Spurs tried to developp Vassel for years and we see how many huge weaknesses he has.

It's like debating with religious fundamentalists...

[duncan2150]

The only player to keep is victor, after that i will keep vassell, keldon and sochan.

Everyody else is tradable and if i have a big offer for keldon i can trade him too.

[MannyIsGod]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

I was pretty hard on him this summer and I didn't think he had much of a future but his last two games show some hope. Will still need to see much more from him but hopefully he can be productive.

[RC_Drunkford]

Shop, cut, fire or waive: Pop

[mudd]

at least Blake can beat everyone down the court.. put him together with Tre and VW and now we can get people moving.. And the Kid can play a little defense.. jmho

[JeffDuncan]

Vassell is a keeper because he’s a shooter. The NBA is a shooter’s league now.

Do people not watch the games?

Doesn’t matter whether you like the way the NBA is or not. That’s the reality. Face it.

The NBA currently rewards three types of players.

1. Bully-boy superstars (typified by Embiid & Giannis)

2. Shooters

3. Aggressive drivers/scorers (Morant, SGA, etc)

Others have to scrounge for scraps. Jokic can flourish, because of sheer skill, and by being a little bit of all three.

Defense? Forget it. As a primary skill, that is. Bring in some new player who tries to play aggressive defense and the refs will foul him out. The refs are calling scads of fouls even on “soft” defenders. You’ll see it every game.

If you draft for defense, in this NBA, you’re a moron. Btw.

Good defense, so called, currently consists of being in the correct location to bother a shooter. Mustn’t touch! That’s primarily a coaching issue.

[Das Texan]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

I'd probably rather see Wesley at this point than Branham doing whatever it is he is trying to do most nights.

[baseline bum]

I'd probably rather see Wesley at this point than Branham doing whatever it is he is trying to do most nights.

At least with Wesley you'd get some defensive effort to pair with the inept offensive skills when you only get the latter from Branham.

[baseline bum]

As Chinook correctly pointed out, putting young players in unfavorable situations, watching them not be up for it and then quickly giving up on them because of this, should not be a reason to get rid. At the very least because it has destroyed whatever value they might have had. For that reason, I wouldn't shop any of the young guys unless they're a part of an advantageous larger trade.

See if you can get anything for the vets, which is unlikely to be of any significance - a couple more 2nds or not , who cares.

I'd shop some of the picks the Spurs have - the Toronto pick, the Chicago - and see if it can get them someone good for next year and on. For example, if Toronto don't expect to keep Anunoby their own 1st back might be better value than other offers they'd get - 2 or 3 picks in the 20s aren't more valuable than a single one in the 8-12 range. They probably won't do it out of spite because they'd look really bad, but who knows, they've seen so much talent go for nothing.

Sochan made to play point was retarded, but that experiment mercifully ended and he still hasn't done much. The young guys outside of Wesley have gotten a ton of playing time to prove they belong and instead they have proved the opposite outside of maybe Vassell who hasn't looked great but is at least not actively hurting the team. Pop is being a moron with the defense he's apparently running but these guys aren't producing offensively either.

[Dejounte]

1 week passes and I’ll dare say Barlow has looked… passable as a backup C

the backup position has been a huge liability in the past because Collins is a blackhole on offense and is a traffic cone on defense. Bassey would have his dumb moments and Mamu didn’t provide anything substantial.

with Barlow out there, the flow of the offense is much better and he makes key shots and rebounds when it counts. He still makes dumb fouls from time to time but nowhere near the stupidity of Zach Collins.

If Barlow shows consistency, this allows the Spurs to focus on getting talent in other needed positions

[mo7888]

Pop is playing a really archaic style of defense where Sochan is following the opponent's best scorers around and is asked to check them without any modern concept of help. Modern defense focuses on getting dribbles picked up and making your rotations if you really have to help someone. The Spurs basically don't help unless it's a called double, a gamble or the guy's already in the paint. Sochan should be using his big body to funnel his guys into help while also being able to switch onto any player screening for his man. Being a versatile defender should mean that you can defend in a lot of different situations on the fly. Pop seems to take it as being able to guard 1-4 or 1-5, which suggests that Jeremy should be guarding these players directly and not just flowing around improve the defense wherever he goes.

That seems like an argument to 1) change the HC, which we know isn't happening until he's ready or 2) trade Sochan. He needs a change of scenery if we aren't goung to put him in position to succeed.

[mo7888]

1 week passes and I’ll dare say Barlow has looked… passable as a backup C

the backup position has been a huge liability in the past because Collins is a blackhole on offense and is a traffic cone on defense. Bassey would have his dumb moments and Mamu didn’t provide anything substantial.

with Barlow out there, the flow of the offense is much better and he makes key shots and rebounds when it counts. He still makes dumb fouls from time to time but nowhere near the stupidity of Zach Collins.

If Barlow shows consistency, this allows the Spurs to focus on getting talent in other needed positions

Definitely a guy who needs consistent burn. His improvement has been impressive considering where he was.

[R. DeMurre]

Historically, when generational players like Wemby get drafted by a team with a bad record, they win their first title with a roster that has undergone a total or near total transformation. Jordan's first ring featured no players from his rookie season, and it was the same for Olajuwon, Steph Curry, Dirk Nowitzki, & Nikola Jokic. Giannis's title team retained only one player from his rookie season-- Khris Middleton.

[SouthernFryd]

You lost me at "Keep Champagnie."

Never seen a worse starter in the NBA. And he's one of the 3 you want to keep. Uh....

[Dejounte]

Here’s a bold take: Wesley is going to be given the starting position soon and will surprise people by how much he’s improved. He will become a bright spot in an otherwise awful season. And I think Cissoko will get some burn too and show he’s a real prospect.

Called It Tbh. Now They Just Need To Give Cissoko A Run…

[CGD]

A more interesting question is how would you value each player on the squad at the half way mark of this season.

(1) multiple FRPs
(2) Single FRP
(3) Multiple SRPs
(4) Neutral Value
(5) Dead money