This team is unwatchable right now - Sorry for the rant

[el contusione]

I've been a Spurs fan for over 2 decades now. Like many of us, I've been spoiled by the beautiful, poetic, high level of basketball the spurs use to play. Man I miss those days!:cry This season has been really painful to watch. Of course the only thing that's stopping me from turning of the tv wemby.

I completely understand that this team is young and learning but man last year's team was tanking and was better than this team. I don't think we were planning tanking this year. The level of IQ being displayed by some of the players who are in their 3rd or 4th year is shocking.

Keldon has taken a step backward this year. Keldon's energy is great but his offensive game, defensive game and bball IQ has stalled.
I'm really surprised why Champagne is on the court. He does not right. He's not making shots, can't create for himself or others, defense sucks, freakin he can't even make a simple pass to a 7'4 guy.
Vassel's offensive game has grown but he's such a one dimensional player. He looks for his own shot first, he makes so many bad decisions on offense. The way he's developing, his game won't fit Wemby's.
Sochan's offensive game is limited but man I love watching him play defense. Its a beauty to see him lock players on defense.
Wesley is slowly gaining his confidence back and growing. I always thought that Wesley is a better prospect than branham.
other guys like Collins, Branham, Osman we know they are not in the long term plans of the Spurs so they are not worth discussing


I understand that most of these guys won't be on the team next year. Hopefully the team next season is just smarter than this team. We can see how badly Wemby wants to win. Right now he's buying into the "Process" but the last thing Spurs want is a frustrated generational talent.

Sorry for my rant. I just needed this to get it off my chest lol

[Leetonidas]

I agree. FO should be embarrassed about the product they're putting on the court

[baseline bum]

I understand that most of these guys won't be on the team next year. Hopefully the team next season is just smarter than this team. We can see how badly Wemby wants to win. Right now he's buying into the "Process" but the last thing Spurs want is a frustrated generational talent.


Hate to break it to you but I expect everyone but Mamu, Graham, and Osman back. Keldon is only gone if say they make a trade for Trae Young this summer (in which case Collins would be too for matching salary). Short of a big trade though next year is going to be this year's team plus a rookie or two and some boderline vet filling the Osman role. Hopefully they'll at least win 30-35 games but I don't see any way they're not in the lottery again next year hoping to get Cooper Flagg.

[z0sa]

100%. This season is the biggest let-down in Spurs history (post #1 draft pick). NO coach, literally NONE, would be in the driver's seat this long into the season other than Pop. He's clearly abused his position.

Worst part - there's no light at the end of the tunnel with how mid this draft is, and the Spurs never want to spend money they don't have to. We're in the midst of a tragedy, that I hope is only one season long but will likely extend for several. And many of the losers on this board are big fans of that.

[el contusione]

Hate to break it to you but I expect everyone but Mamu, Graham, and Osman back. Keldon is only gone if say they make a trade for Trae Young this summer (in which case Collins would be too for matching salary). Short of a big trade though next year is going to be this year's team plus a rookie or two and some boderline vet filling the Osman role. Hopefully they'll at least win 30-35 games but I don't see any way they're not in the lottery again next year hoping to get Cooper Flagg.

That would be a tragedy! I really hope they don't do that to Wemby and the fans. This organization is not like Charlotte or Washington. The fans won't take mediocrity.

[itzsoweezee]

Did you watch this team early in the year with Sochan playing point and Zack Collins starting/getting major minutes off the bench? That was an absolute train wreck. This is at least somewhat competitive (notwithstanding Collins continuing to get minutes for some unknown reason).

[Mr. Body]

Just don't watch. No one's requiring you to watch.

[Mugen]

It's a team with bottom of the barrel talent outside of Wemby running outdated schemes. They should be way farther along than what they're showing now even with the Wemby tank and this year's "tank."

There are definitely real questions on whether a pretty substandard GM can build a playoff team, let alone contender, around a generational talent. This upcoming draft is huge and so will the coaching decision looming in a year or two.

[baseline bum]

That would be a tragedy! I really hope they don't do that to Wemby and the fans. This organization is not like Charlotte or Washington. The fans won't take mediocrity.

They're kind of stuck there with Anunoby off the market. He's the guy I desperately wanted to sign but he has made it pretty clear he's staying in NYC. Plus the Raptors have RFA rights on Quickley, so he's off the table too. The FA class this year is mostly old guys like LeBron, James Harden, PG13, etc that aren't of much use to the Spurs. I guess they could sign Tyus Jones to be starting PG which would be a small upgrade over his brother or maybe overpay Malik Monk to miss shots when the team can't run an offense. But I'd expect the same team back next season for the most part.

[Jordan Jackson]

It probably is time for RC to step back into role of GM in some capacity. Promote Wright out of the position. Sorry - you really shouldn’t be turning over your franchise to a guy who only knows losing.

They cannot fucking around with the next draft and off-season.

[NASpurs]

Just don't watch. No one's requiring you to watch.

He's a fucking fan. He can still watch and moan at what's on the court, you dumb mothefucker :lol

[JPB]

Then spending 3-4 more years hoping a Risacher or a Cooper (that is if you get them, which you have little statistical chances to) develop so maybe you start winning games in 2028?

No way Wemby accepts that, or anybody for that matter. Wants to lose your fanbase, media attention, sponsors, respect.... sure, waste Wemby 3 or 4 years of his career trying to develop role players... Anybody really believe Wemby and Trae flirting in the ASG is totally fortuitus? They were ofc (like we were) aware of rumors about spurs calling ATL to test the waters for Trae (true or not). Just like the knew (ofc) those pictures would be seen and Vic read Pop ITV in L'Equipe...

Wemby sending signs to the spurs... "I'm ready to dominate folks, no way I'm wasting 3-4 year of my career and stats "pounding the rock" with these role players. Give me a real team and I'm breaking that freaking rock before soon".

[spurraider21]

They're kind of stuck there with Anunoby off the market. He's the guy I desperately wanted to sign but he has made it pretty clear he's staying in NYC. Plus the Raptors have RFA rights on Quickley, so he's off the table too. The FA class this year is mostly old guys like LeBron, James Harden, PG13, etc that aren't of much use to the Spurs. I guess they could sign Tyus Jones to be starting PG which would be a small upgrade over his brother or maybe overpay Malik Monk to miss shots when the team can't run an offense. But I'd expect the same team back next season for the most part.
nah, monk would be really good, but he's gonna have a lot of suitors

45/37/82 is fine efficiency for a guy like him who plays on-ball. his assist rate is quite good

[Dex]

Just don't watch. No one's requiring you to watch.

This is a discussion forum, so we should be able to discuss the good and bad.

Like OP, I'm only still watching because of Wemby...and that has been highly entertaining even when we are losing games left and right. That said, it's impossible to watch without noticing the glaring weaknesses the team has as currently constructed.

It's really hard to point out a lot of promising things to this current Spurs squad other than Vassell coming into his own as a second scorer (though streaky and with room for growth). Jones is doing alright but what we are seeing is probably close to his ceiling, and Sochan is getting it together now that the rattle-brained PG experiment is over.

Other than that, I am just constantly disappointed by guys like KJ, Collins, Branham, Osman, Champagnie, etc...and that is frustrating.

My biggest concern is that all of this losing starts taking its toll on Wemby. He obviously cares about winning and is visibly frustrated with the current state of affairs. We all knew this was going to be a process but Spurs better find a way to start winning more games next season or they risk alienating their future.

[exstatic]

They’re watchable most nights, but last night was a stinking turd in the punch bowl.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hate to break it to you but I expect everyone but Mamu, Graham, and Osman back. Keldon is only gone if say they make a trade for Trae Young this summer (in which case Collins would be too for matching salary). Short of a big trade though next year is going to be this year's team plus a rookie or two and some boderline vet filling the Osman role. Hopefully they'll at least win 30-35 games but I don't see any way they're not in the lottery again next year hoping to get Cooper Flagg.

Historically, they churned more than that. If you look at the how they retooled in 2000-2003 and again 2008-2013 they did churn the bottom of the roster as you describe above but they also made many more moves at the top of the roster.

Some worked out like Bowen and Ferry. Others did not like Smith or Anderson.

Spurs also make these moves out of left field all the time so not being able to see it ourselves is not a valid basis.

[spurraider21]

really glad i missed yesterday's game. was at disneyland all day. apparently all i needed to see was Wemby's highlight summary videos on youtube and was able to do that without sitting through the rest of the crap

there have been a number of these stinkers this season, early on against clippers, knicks, pacers, etc. but most of the games have been watchable. with that said, if im watching the game on league pass after the fact, i tend to fast forward pretty liberally through the sections where wemby is off the court

[Leetonidas]

Just don't watch. No one's requiring you to watch.

Apply that logic to your constant bitching and moaning around here tbh

[spurraider21]

Hate to break it to you but I expect everyone but Mamu, Graham, and Osman back. Keldon is only gone if say they make a trade for Trae Young this summer (in which case Collins would be too for matching salary). Short of a big trade though next year is going to be this year's team plus a rookie or two and some boderline vet filling the Osman role. Hopefully they'll at least win 30-35 games but I don't see any way they're not in the lottery again next year hoping to get Cooper Flagg.


Historically, they churned more than that. If you look at the how they retooled in 2000-2003 and again 2008-2013 they did churn the bottom of the roster as you describe above but they also made many more moves at the top of the roster.

Some worked out like Bowen and Ferry. Others did not like Smith or Anderson.

Spurs also make these moves out of left field all the time so not being able to see it ourselves is not a valid basis.
theres also the roster spot vacated by McDermott now being temporarily occupied by Morris (ive been expecting barlow to get a multiyear deal low on guarantees to fill that spot once the morris situation is resolved).

yes, the spurs have a history of churn, but this year its simply an issue of not having more contracts set to expire this offseason. they're going to have to aggressively trade away players to free up space if they want to churn more than what BB described.

[baseline bum]

that said, if im watching the game on league pass after the fact, i tend to fast forward pretty liberally through the sections where wemby is off the court

When Barlow gets the backup minutes I still watch when Wemby checks out but as soon as Collins is in fuck that shit.

[Mr. Body]

I mean, the team is rebuilding. We just happened to hit our generational prospect the first time out. Be thankful for that.

Otherwise, bitching about a rebuilding team is kind of pointless. They're going to be better faster than most other teams in their circumstances. Be patient.

And stop fucking bitching about players who are 20 years old. Jesus Christ.

[spurraider21]

I mean, the team is rebuilding. We just happened to hit our generational prospect the first time out. Be thankful for that.

Otherwise, bitching about a rebuilding team is kind of pointless. They're going to be better faster than most other teams in their circumstances. Be patient.

And stop fucking bitching about players who are 20 years old. Jesus Christ.
the frustration is the step back that a number of players have taken. with or without wemby, its fair to expect internal improvement from young players, not internal regression

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the frustration is the step back that a number of players have taken. with or without wemby, its fair to expect internal improvement from young players, not internal regression

KJ and Collins have regressed. Who else?

Wemby has improved consistently. I think Wesley, Jones, Champagnie, and Sochan are playing better.

We taking issue with Branham busting?

[Brazil]

He's a fucking fan. He can still watch and moan at what's on the court, you dumb mothefucker :lol

:lol tbh...

[LeBowen]

I mean, the team is rebuilding.

True.


We just happened to hit our generational prospect the first time out. Be thankful for that.

We got him because PATFO was incompetent for years. Yes, they did tank on purpose last season, but their every move since nephew shitstorm has been a disaster.
Coaching, contracts, trades, draft, you name it. There were way more bad than good moves.
Still, they got lucky yet again, but if they don't get their shit together, they will waste Wemby.


Otherwise, bitching about a rebuilding team is kind of pointless.

Win percentage isn't the most important thing, but if more or less the entire roster except for Wemby is unusable going forward, we have every right to bitch and moan.


They're going to be better faster than most other teams in their circumstances. Be patient.

The only team with more consecutive seasons in the lottery are the Hornets.
Spurs are tied with Pistons.


And stop fucking bitching about players who are 20 years old. Jesus Christ.

DJ and Derrick were the last great picks Spurs made.

Since then, Spurs had the following first round picks:
2018: 18th pick Lonnie - not on the roster, barely an NBA player at 25.
2019: 19th pick Samanic - not an NBA player, 29th pick Keldon - very good selection considering the position, but he's developed into a tank commander. Useless for serious teams.
2020: 11th pick Vassell - very good pick, the only positive player on the roster except for Wemby, but on his current level he's not worth 30 million a year, not even close.
2021: 12th pick Primo - even if he wasn't an exhibitionist, it was an awful pick.
2022: 9th pick Sochan - the jury is still out, but Spurs missed on a lot of obviously better players, 20th Branham and 25th Wesley are both not NBA players and Spurs missed on even more good prospects.

TL; DR
Out of the last 8 FRPs, 5 are unquestionable failures, two are decent and one is good.
Once upon a time Spurs were considered to be the best franchise at finding prospects and kept pulling great players out of their ass, not just in draft.

Then we move onto all the 50 Mills contracts, trading for the biggest loser in the league and refusing to accept there's no way to compete anymore.
Not to mention all the ridiculously bad lineups, Forbes starting for two straight seasons and all the Mills-Forbes-Belinelli nonsense we had to endure while supposedly trying to win games.
Just last summer they give Zach fucking Collins 16 million a year as if teams were lining up to sign him.

I'm all for patience and development, it was the Spurs way, but please do enlighten me why would I trust PATFO in it's current state?
Which aspect of their work gives you confidence?
Managing contracts?
Trades?
Drafting?
Player development?
Coaching? Which other coach in history of any team sport was patient at the age of 75?
Because from my perspective, ever since nephew bent them over, it's been nothing short of a disaster.
Getting lucky with 14% odds doesn't change that.
What would happen if they didn't get Wemby? We'd legit be a 5 win team this season, worse than Process Sixers and that Bobcats team.

You've got countless examples in world of sports where all-time great serial winners didn't realize when it's enough and ended up running the teams they created into the ground.
This season is over, but if Spurs don't get at least 35 wins next season, everyone has to go. Clear out every individual who has anything to do with basketball operations.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

theres also the roster spot vacated by McDermott now being temporarily occupied by Morris (ive been expecting barlow to get a multiyear deal low on guarantees to fill that spot once the morris situation is resolved).

yes, the spurs have a history of churn, but this year its simply an issue of not having more contracts set to expire this offseason. they're going to have to aggressively trade away players to free up space if they want to churn more than what BB described.

In the past the Spurs would do something like the Thomas trade to clear roster. Thus my comment about not being able to see it not necessarily meaning we are stuck.

[spurraider21]

KJ and Collins have regressed. Who else?

Wemby has improved consistently. I think Wesley, Jones, Champagnie, and Sochan are playing better.

We taking issue with Branham busting?
keldon/collins are pretty significant players, both in terms of expected role (came into the season as starters) and salary, so they weigh quite heavily in the assessment, yes.

i dont know that champagnie is really playing better. he's become the nominal starter but hasnt played particularly well for most of the season. has some games here and there with increased defensive activity, but i dont think he's gotten better. i feel largely the same with sochan. i dont think he's any better than last year. his 3pt shot has come back down to earth (again), nor is he really having notable defensive impact most of the time. there have maybe been about 4-5 games where ive felt he was a force on that end. a number of games where he's been kind of invisible and passable on that end (not good enough for him), and then games where he's just been completely ineffective

branham has looked worse than last year (better last 2 games)

wesley has had some really nice stretches this year, but his inability to really do anything on offense has stuck out lately, and his defensive impact hasnt quite been there the way it was when he first started getting real minutes. im still ok with his development for now.

Tre also is about the same as last year, if that. his defensive shortcomings have been more glaring this year, imo

and then you could just see the team's performance in its totality. they're performing worse than last year despite adding a very impactful wemby

[FuzzyLumpkins]

keldon/collins are pretty significant players, both in terms of expected role (came into the season as starters) and salary, so they weigh quite heavily in the assessment, yes.

i dont know that champagnie is really playing better. he's become the nominal starter but hasnt played particularly well for most of the season. has some games here and there with increased defensive activity, but i dont think he's gotten better

branham has looked worse than last year (better last 2 games)

wesley has had some really nice stretches this year, but his inability to really do anything on offense has stuck out lately, and his defensive impact hasnt quite been there the way it was when he first started getting real minutes. im still ok with his development for now.

Tre also is about the same as last year, if that. his defensive shortcomings have been more glaring this year, imo

and then you could just see the team's performance in its totality. they're performing worse than last year despite adding a very impactful wemby

Champagnie is playing about as well as a starter as he was as a backup. That is an up in difficulty with the same output. He has gone from being mostly harmless to occasionally impacting a game in that role. If you want to to say he is treading water then fine but I cannot see how regression fits.

Collins was always an injury retread. I think most of the ire towards him is because of his 2 year deal. I think that has more to do with the salary floor than what the Spurs think of him relative to the league though. Now he is hurt and sucking again. Oh noes!

KJ is an interesting situation. He has kept his role as primary scorer but with the bench unit. Collins has been dogshit but Barlow has been a pleasant perimeter defensive surprise and the backcourt of Osman and Wesley is starting to mesh better as a flowing offense. KJ has been a part of that unit progression. When he comes in with the closers he is a wallflower true and overall regression but it is not all bad. He has really impressed me with his professional effort.

Vassell at this point is what he is and looks to be 17 ppg and not much else. He is likely treading on or around that plateau through age 30.

Wemby, Sochan, Wesley, Osman, Barlow, and Jones all have gotten better. I would like to throw Bassey in there too but IR/SSS.

At the end of the day the roster is talent poor and you can only polish so much.

[scott]

It's a team with bottom of the barrel talent outside of Wemby running outdated schemes. They should be way farther along than what they're showing now even with the Wemby tank and this year's "tank."

There are definitely real questions on whether a pretty substandard GM can build a playoff team, let alone contender, around a generational talent. This upcoming draft is huge and so will the coaching decision looming in a year or two.

This is my biggest concern. We have a GM and a Coach (to whom the GM reports) that believe they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm fully prepared for us to get "cute" this offseason, and not in a good way.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is my biggest concern. We have a GM and a Coach (to whom the GM reports) that believe they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm fully prepared for us to get "cute" this offseason, and not in a good way.

You also think most of the reporters are mouthbreathing idiots too right?

[scott]

You also think most of the reporters are mouthbreathing idiots too right?

I think the local media that covers the Spurs are too afraid or too inappropriately reverent of Pop to be critical of him.

[Spurminator]

They've been more watchable lately and played some pretty close games against teams that would have blown them out earlier in the year. But last night was definitely a pile of hot garbage. We've still got players getting significant minutes who wouldn't see the floor on other teams, and we have a coaching staff who still seems to be more interested in creating teachable moments than creating a winning culture any time soon.

I think Wemby is probably more patient than some people's concerns. I don't see him getting as frustrated with losing as other budding NBA stars might (insofar as demanding a trade or anything like that.) I think he realizes that he is still a work in progress as well. So I'm not really worried about Wemby except that for his development I'd like to see him playing in more competitive situations next year, including (hopefully) a Playoff race.

[scott]

Wemby is a remarkably mature young man (or so it appears from everything we get to see). I think he is communicating quite clearly his frustrations (the comment about MJ getting 5blk/5stl games in wins versus losses stands out) while doing so in a mature, professional way. None of us can never truly know, but I think Wemby truly wants this to be where he spends his entire career and will be more patient than some on this board think, but I also think he'll work (in whatever way he needs to) to push the team to make changes... which is good. We need a force like that driving accountability.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think the local media that covers the Spurs are too afraid or too inappropriately reverent of Pop to be critical of him.

National reporters generally don't criticize him either.

[jjspur]

Other than Wemby and Vassell, all the rest of the spurs are pretty much backups. Think about it, Champ would be a 10th, 11th man at best on any other team. keldon while a starter for most of his career is now basically a backup on a bad team (demotion). Trey Jones is a backup playing a starting role as well. On almost any other team Sochan would be coming off the bench. Branham and Wesley play as well as their drafted position, which isn't all that great. One of them may be gone next year. Many of the rest might not even be on an NBA roster.

All in all, many teams have wiped the floor with these spurs. That's what happens when you pit real starters and all stars against our team. Granted on any given game any team can win, but when the coach doesn't put the best team forward every game and experiments half the season away, that isn't a recipe for winning. We tanked badly last year for Wemby and it paid off. This year we are just worse with basically the same team pus Wemby, logically we should have been been at least a little bit better, not heading into the worse season ever in franchise history.

Hopefully someone in the front office wakes up and actually tries to make the team better sooner rather than five years from now. It's painfully obvious that we don't have a whole lot of talent, but its more obvious that the front office isn't doing much to improve the team either. Hoping for luck in the draft isn't the best strategy either. Sure it helps but not always, especially in a lower quality draft.

Something has to change hopefully sooner rather than later.

[mexicanjunior]

They have been unwatchable all year. The biggest waste of NBA league pass money in Spurs history.

[jermaine]

I feel you bro. This team is trash. An ro see the same lineups time after time. Barlow & Sidi should definitely be playing waaaaaay more mins.

[scott]

National reporters generally don't criticize him either.

Good point, and while we are starting to see more "What are the Spurs doing?" kind of questions (though not too much), the vibe is still that Pop is great and the Spurs will somehow someway eventually be good again. Anyone else with the results the Spurs have been putting on the board the last 5-years would be at the top of any "hot seat" ranking, but this four-days old article ranks two first-year coaches and one second-year coach as on the hot seat.

I'll be the first to show gratitude for Pop and the five-rings he's brought here (as a self-described former Sniffer), and firmly believe he is the greatest coach of all time... but the lack of accountability or criticism of the the FO in the entire post-Kawhi era is quite stunning. I get the feeling that we are just viewed as this cute small-market franchise with a rich past but who now exists as fodder for other teams or, worse, a farm team (my German football club, BVB, is a potential example of this, though they are consistently second best in that league and compete in Champions League every year). It kind of reminds me of Williams Racing in F1... there is no real criticism or accountability because no one cares about Williams Racing :lol

[TD 21]

This is what happens when you have a narrow minded vision for what a player on your team should be because you're more concerned with assembling a bunch of choir boys than players with dynamic skill, physical or otherwise.

The bigots will blame Wright (despite him literally ranking as the second in command as the GM), but he's likely a red herring as a yes man doing the leg (dirty) work for Pop and Buford.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good point, and while we are starting to see more "What are the Spurs doing?" kind of questions (though not too much), the vibe is still that Pop is great and the Spurs will somehow someway eventually be good again. Anyone else with the results the Spurs have been putting on the board the last 5-years would be at the top of any "hot seat" ranking, but this four-days old article ranks two first-year coaches and one second-year coach as on the hot seat.

I'll be the first to show gratitude for Pop and the five-rings he's brought here (as a self-described former Sniffer), and firmly believe he is the greatest coach of all time... but the lack of accountability or criticism of the the FO in the entire post-Kawhi era is quite stunning. I get the feeling that we are just viewed as this cute small-market franchise with a rich past but who now exists as fodder for other teams or, worse, a farm team (my German football club, BVB, is a potential example of this, though they are consistently second best in that league and compete in Champions League every year). It kind of reminds me of Williams Racing in F1... there is no real criticism or accountability because no one cares about Williams Racing :lol

As for Pop and his performance this year I have one think I look at: is Wemby progressing into a top 5 NBA player. Given his performance compared to historic greats, it is looking fantastic.

When you go through the roster and look at where guys were drafted and how they are doing, it is not like the players are underperforming. They gutted the roster pretty famously the last few years.

Spurs went a different direction than they did with Robinson adding several vets but they also did not have two years to create the roster. Sure you can dispute closing lineups or benching a guy but that just seems to miss the point. The Spurs are not run by fools.

[TD 21]

As for Pop and his performance this year I have one think I look at: is Wemby progressing into a top 5 NBA player. Given his performance compared to historic greats, it is looking fantastic.

When you go through the roster and look at where guys were drafted and how they are doing, it is not like the players are underperforming. They gutted the roster pretty famously the last few years.

Spurs went a different direction than they did with Robinson adding several vets but they also did not have two years to create the roster. Sure you can dispute closing lineups or benching a guy but that just seems to miss the point. The Spurs are not run by fools.

Wembanyama was always going to be in the process of becoming the all-time great he's destined to become no matter who drafted him.

Worse, they're run by holier than thou types, who think they have proof of concept for their "program" because of the past, so they guzzle their own Kool-Aid by the gallon and are never held accountable from ownership to local media.

This is why the same flawed archetypes keep getting drafted and splurged on.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wembanyama was always going to be in the process of becoming the all-time great he's destined to become no matter who drafted him.

Worse, they're run by holier than thou types, who think they have proof of concept for their "program" because of the past, so they guzzle their own Kool-Aid by the gallon and are never held accountable from ownership to local media.

This is why the same flawed archetypes keep getting drafted and splurged on.

Yeah no coach has ruined a player and no prospect busts. You reek of shit posting with the choirboy nonsense and now this issue of relative status.

[TD 21]

Yeah no coach has ruined a player and no prospect busts. You reek of shit posting with the choirboy nonsense and now this issue of relative status.

All time prospects don't bust and coaching is highly overrated, genius.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All time prospects don't bust and coaching is highly overrated, genius.

:lol Popovich knows more about basketball than you.

[el contusione]

Just don't watch. No one's requiring you to watch.
Thanks tips! Lol

[John B]

My take, Spurs are still tanking to get that top 5 pick, and help squeeze TOR out of the top 6 pick for the FRP to convey this year, period. What’s with winning some meaningless W’s and get trounced in the play-in, and missing out on the possible two lottery picks? Spurs can potentially get Sarr/Risacher and Topic/PG. I expect the Spurs to really be busy in the off-season, targeting possible trades and/or free agents to complete the team. I don’t know about you guys, but I see the Spurs in a great position to load talents come off-season and those lottery picks would help. Patience.

[TD 21]

:lol Popovich knows more about basketball than you.

:lmao At being a brainwashed sniffer to the point of giving credit to a coach for the early development of an all time prospect.

[RC_Drunkford]

if you want to change things, start by changing the head coach

[FuzzyLumpkins]

if you want to change things, start by changing the head coach

Sure but given Spurs ownership, it is 'old man yells at clouds.'

[scott]

As for Pop and his performance this year I have one think I look at: is Wemby progressing into a top 5 NBA player. Given his performance compared to historic greats, it is looking fantastic.

When you go through the roster and look at where guys were drafted and how they are doing, it is not like the players are underperforming. They gutted the roster pretty famously the last few years.

Spurs went a different direction than they did with Robinson adding several vets but they also did not have two years to create the roster. Sure you can dispute closing lineups or benching a guy but that just seems to miss the point. The Spurs are not run by fools.

5 years straight of no playoffs, longest streak in franchise history, and 7 years of progressively getting worse. Can you name any other coach or front office in professional sports that would be granted such leeway? Not even his modern contemporary, Bill Belichick, was given as long a rope. Having lived in MA for awhile, as insufferable as Boston sports fans and media are, they do expect better and drive accountability.

What have this FO/Coach done in the last 7 years, beside luck into drafting Wemby, to give you confidence that they will turn this around? I'd love nothing more for that to be the case, by no means am I a Pop-hater who wants to see him lose. I'd love for him to go past 1500 wins and add a few more chips to his resume to close the door on any GOAT questions from here until forever.

I didn't say they were fools - but I do think they appear to have bought into their own hubris at time. This is reinforced by Pop's snarkiness whenever faced with any kind of question that challenges him - he responds by trying to make the person asking seem stupid or inferior rather than understanding that facing challenging questions is the cost of leadership. For as critical he is of certain political leaders, he ironically demonstrates a lot of the same fundamental character flaws as seen in them when it comes to facing accountability. Only a handful of privileged individuals in this world get to post prolonged substandard results and are empowered to simply respond with "be patient" rather to be held to account.

With that said, I admittedly am dealing with imperfect information. Maybe Pop has some 400-slide PowerPoint Deck he and Wright have run ownership through and everyone is fully on board. Or maybe Holt Jr. and RC have had stern conversations with Pop and Wright about the basketball product. Maybe... or maybe they aren't the right people leading the next era of Spurs basketball.

[scott]

What I think might be the case:

I don't know anything about Holt Jr., but looking at his credentials, he wouldn't have his position with the Spurs or HoltCat if his last name wasn't Holt. This likely means that he is overly reliant on the CEO and President of the organization. This is a perfectly fine way to run an NBA franchise, and I don't have any reason to believe the CEO and the President are doing a bad job of running the business of the Spurs - in fact, it appears they are doing great. They are bringing in tons of new sponsorship dollars, have a new state-of-the-art practice facility, are poised to get the public to pay for a new arena for them, etc.

I only have one criticism of the CEO and President: they aren't holding the GM and HC accountable to the product. This is because, of course, the President is the Head Coach, and to hold the GM accountable would mean that he'd also have to hold himself (as President) accountable).

[Knoxxx]

LOL@OP just noticing this! Did you miss the 18-game losing streak? The frequent large blowouts getting down 20, 30, even 40 points!?! I’ve mainly only been watching to see Wemby highlights while holding my nose for extended periods in between the sparse number of games actually worth watching.

[SouthernFryd]

Did someone actually say Champagnie is playing better?

Is this really a basketball forum?

My Take:

Spurs suck, Pop sucks. All suck except Wemby. And I'll give a grudging nod to Vassell. Seen improvement. That "Manu-like" pass I don't see anyone else on the Spurs being able to make.

Also, the fan bases BBIQ has went to shit. I guess that is to be expected. If you kept watching the SPURS through this horrible multi-year stretch, you may be a SPURS/POP fan, but you sure as hell ain't no basketball fan.

I came back because of Wemby...I'll be leaving again because of Pop and the rest of the Spurs FO. This is the worse I've ever seen a Spurs Team play. I sure as hell ain't sticking around to watch anymore of it. Like others, I'll watch WEMBY highlights and hope he gets on a Team that actually knows how to play and use him. That would be something to see.

[rankingtear]

Wemby is still raw on offense and they are running almost everything through him as they should. Wemby wants to win but he wants to win as the head of the snake on offense and defense. They are just going to waste assets to make that progression look watchable. Wait for him to get there then spend , that is what all great sustainable teams have done.

[duncan2150]

Totally disagree on vassell, the only bright spot after victor imo

Stills has a lot of ways to grow but i don't think we can talk about him with the others

[paperboy77]

That would be a tragedy! I really hope they don't do that to Wemby and the fans. This organization is not like Charlotte or Washington. The fans won't take mediocrity.

Yeah they will. People (local media) are too nice around here to the Spurs and will suck up to them infinitely.

[rankingtear]

Did someone actually say Champagnie is playing better?

Is this really a basketball forum?

My Take:

Spurs suck, Pop sucks. All suck except Wemby. And I'll give a grudging nod to Vassell. Seen improvement. That "Manu-like" pass I don't see anyone else on the Spurs being able to make.

Also, the fan bases BBIQ has went to shit. I guess that is to be expected. If you kept watching the SPURS through this horrible multi-year stretch, you may be a SPURS/POP fan, but you sure as hell ain't no basketball fan.

I came back because of Wemby...I'll be leaving again because of Pop and the rest of the Spurs FO. This is the worse I've ever seen a Spurs Team play. I sure as hell ain't sticking around to watch anymore of it. Like others, I'll watch WEMBY highlights and hope he gets on a Team that actually knows how to play and use him. That would be something to see.

All you ever comment is this team sucks. You don't contribute anything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

5 years straight of no playoffs, longest streak in franchise history, and 7 years of progressively getting worse. Can you name any other coach or front office in professional sports that would be granted such leeway? Not even his modern contemporary, Bill Belichick, was given as long a rope. Having lived in MA for awhile, as insufferable as Boston sports fans and media are, they do expect better and drive accountability.

What have this FO/Coach done in the last 7 years, beside luck into drafting Wemby, to give you confidence that they will turn this around? I'd love nothing more for that to be the case, by no means am I a Pop-hater who wants to see him lose. I'd love for him to go past 1500 wins and add a few more chips to his resume to close the door on any GOAT questions from here until forever.

I didn't say they were fools - but I do think they appear to have bought into their own hubris at time. This is reinforced by Pop's snarkiness whenever faced with any kind of question that challenges him - he responds by trying to make the person asking seem stupid or inferior rather than understanding that facing challenging questions is the cost of leadership. For as critical he is of certain political leaders, he ironically demonstrates a lot of the same fundamental character flaws as seen in them when it comes to facing accountability. Only a handful of privileged individuals in this world get to post prolonged substandard results and are empowered to simply respond with "be patient" rather to be held to account.

With that said, I admittedly am dealing with imperfect information. Maybe Pop has some 400-slide PowerPoint Deck he and Wright have run ownership through and everyone is fully on board. Or maybe Holt Jr. and RC have had stern conversations with Pop and Wright about the basketball product. Maybe... or maybe they aren't the right people leading the next era of Spurs basketball.

This newest Holt has made it clear his feeling in past contract discussions and during the draft process. You can hold out hope that he is lying I guess.

Just because other teams churn through leadership does not make it a good policy. You have to replace them. They are HoF and no one but a few around here and Stephen Jackson take issue.

Little of what you write here has anything to do with basketball. It is just complaints about his abrasiveness and politics.

As I said before, I am interested in what happens moving forward in the Wemby era and not much in the woulda coulda shouldas from the KJ era. If you want to say it would've been wiser to tank a few years earlier I do not disagree but the outcome is the outcome.

They are going to add talent around him.

[SouthernFryd]

All you ever comment is this team sucks. You don't contribute anything.

This team sucks.

What else you want me to say? I can lie to you if you want. We can talk about drafts/future, etc. If that makes you feel better.

But, the team still sucks.

Don't worry much about it. I ain't gonna be around much longer. I love basketball. Grew up playing and coaching basketball. Can barely walk or hold a cup of coffee because of it. This ain't basketball. Cuz...y'know. The team sucks.

[KobesAchilles]

In the old days, if a team sucked they didn’t really make money. Today though all teams make a boatload of money and really I don’t know if ownership wants a winner.

Pop has to go. It’s his time. Belichick was fired so why not Pop? He has nothing left to prove and honestly he can’t teach players anymore. Nobody on this damn team has learned anything except Wemby. We need to go younger and progressive. Time to play an offense that is with the times.

The GM has to go. Does anybody really trust Wright to make correct draft picks when there’s no easy lay up involved. I don’t. Dude hasn’t shown an ability to scout talent. We are about the least talented team in the league.

We also need to remake the roster. I expect the first 4 years to find guys that actually fit around Wemby. But that means kicking people off the team. If you’re mediocre or can’t play a role then you’re off the team. It’s that simple. We need a wing defender, a PG, a PF, and a SF. And really a second option as well. It’s going to take some time to get this right but staying put is the worst move in the world and just shows your franchise player that you don’t give a fuck about winning.

[rankingtear]

All you ever comment is this team sucks. You don't contribute anything.


This team sucks.

What else you want me to say? I can lie to you if you want. We can talk about drafts/future, etc. If that makes you feel better.

But, the team still sucks.

Don't worry much about it. I ain't gonna be around much longer. I love basketball. Grew up playing and coaching basketball. Can barely walk or hold a cup of coffee because of it. This ain't basketball. Cuz...y'know. The team sucks.

Good.

[scott]

This newest Holt has made it clear his feeling in past contract discussions and during the draft process. You can hold out hope that he is lying I guess.

I must have missed the comments, perhaps you can point me to them and they'll better educate my opinion of him. All I've ever heard from him is that the Spurs aren't moving and that he is happy they won the lottery.


Just because other teams churn through leadership does not make it a good policy. You have to replace them. They are HoF and no one but a few around here and Stephen Jackson take issue.

Indeed. No issue with continued, prolonged losing. That's the problem. Even HoFers eventually aren't the right fit for the job. Again I ask, what has this Front Office and Coach done in the last 7 years to give you, or any other fan, confidence?


Little of what you write here has anything to do with basketball. It is just complaints about his abrasiveness and politics.

It's actually not a post about abrasiveness or politics. The abrasiveness is merely a symptom of the root cause: the lack of any accountability whatsoever. And you certainly know from your time in the Politics forum that I am aligned with Pop on the political issues, not opposed. The political observation is again just pointing out symptoms of the root cause. If you don't want to engage, then just don't, but I know you're wiser than to simply engage in blanket dismissals.


As I said before, I am interested in what happens moving forward in the Wemby era and not much in the woulda coulda shouldas from the KJ era. If you want to say it would've been wiser to tank a few years earlier I do not disagree but the outcome is the outcome.

It's a convenient position. In a couple of years of a continued lack of success, Pop can tell us to be patient and we can all just say we aren't interested in the past - only moving forward. It's this type of general apathy that reinforces their lack of accountability. Keep buying those tickets! We'll be good eventually I PROMISE.


They are going to add talent around him.

Sure, just like they winning was important this year, to the point of Pop saying it was "mandatory"

What's wild is the apparent inability to recognize that Pop is an all-time Coach, while simultaneously not being the right person for this rebuild. If they turn it around, I'll be hear to eat crow. If they don't, I doubt any of the sniff crew will be. "WE ARE BEING PATIENT."

[GAustex]

Spurs in particular and the NBA in general has degraded, in my opinion, to the point of being unwatchable.
I miss Tim Duncan. A purposeful way of playing-smart even though most often the opponent was more athletic.

[itzsoweezee]

National reporters generally don't criticize him either.

Wrong. National media has clowned popovich this year. Just today ESPN reporters were clowning him on the hoops collective podcast. There have been many others

[itzsoweezee]

The worst part of this season is that the Spurs appear to be improving only because popovich has reversed some of his horrendous decisions from earlier in the year

[scott]

In the old days, if a team sucked they didn’t really make money. Today though all teams make a boatload of money and really I don’t know if ownership wants a winner.

Pop has to go. It’s his time. Belichick was fired so why not Pop? He has nothing left to prove and honestly he can’t teach players anymore. Nobody on this damn team has learned anything except Wemby. We need to go younger and progressive. Time to play an offense that is with the times.

The GM has to go. Does anybody really trust Wright to make correct draft picks when there’s no easy lay up involved. I don’t. Dude hasn’t shown an ability to scout talent. We are about the least talented team in the league.

We also need to remake the roster. I expect the first 4 years to find guys that actually fit around Wemby. But that means kicking people off the team. If you’re mediocre or can’t play a role then you’re off the team. It’s that simple. We need a wing defender, a PG, a PF, and a SF. And really a second option as well. It’s going to take some time to get this right but staying put is the worst move in the world and just shows your franchise player that you don’t give a fuck about winning.

I will stand up for Wright a bit and say that we don't know how empowered he really is. Is he making the ultimate decisions on draft day, or is the board set by Pop? The one thing that does give me some hope is that the FO has shown the proclivity to make moves these last few years, which we hope would be an indicator that they won't be aggressive in making moves to build, rather than break down. It's yet to be seen, but that is the main glimmer of optimism I can find in terms of the FO's team building capabilities. I'd say that the DJM and Trae rumors at least provide a small amount in confidence that they're active to some degree.

This summer will be big. The FO does have a decent pathway to improvement with a not-super-aggressive summer. Draft your two top-10 picks and replace the flotsam with some semi-capable vets. I'm just one person, but that's my opinion of the bare minimum.

[timtonymanu]

lol well according to the old man, we don’t know what we’re talking about if we criticize his coaching. His crappy record with a generational talent doesn’t already “say it all.”

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I must have missed the comments, perhaps you can point me to them and they'll better educate my opinion of him. All I've ever heard from him is that the Spurs aren't moving and that he is happy they won the lottery.



Indeed. No issue with continued, prolonged losing. That's the problem. Even HoFers eventually aren't the right fit for the job. Again I ask, what has this Front Office and Coach done in the last 7 years to give you, or any other fan, confidence?



It's actually not a post about abrasiveness or politics. The abrasiveness is merely a symptom of the root cause: the lack of any accountability whatsoever. And you certainly know from your time in the Politics forum that I am aligned with Pop on the political issues, not opposed. The political observation is again just pointing out symptoms of the root cause. If you don't want to engage, then just don't, but I know you're wiser than to simply engage in blanket dismissals.



It's a convenient position. In a couple of years of a continued lack of success, Pop can tell us to be patient and we can all just say we aren't interested in the past - only moving forward. It's this type of general apathy that reinforces their lack of accountability. Keep buying those tickets! We'll be good eventually I PROMISE.



Sure, just like they winning was important this year, to the point of Pop saying it was "mandatory"

What's wild is the apparent inability to recognize that Pop is an all-time Coach, while simultaneously not being the right person for this rebuild. If they turn it around, I'll be hear to eat crow. If they don't, I doubt any of the sniff crew will be. "WE ARE BEING PATIENT."

:lol all that line by line and still no discussion of actual basketball.

You mean other than the 5 year contract?

“His ability to connect and spend time and bounce between the really detailed development of basketball players and the bigger picture of developing people is just so impressive,” Spurs managing partner Peter J. Holt said in May. “I think no matter what Pop does, he’s going to find a way to do that because that’s in his heart. And I’m excited to see whatever the next phase is in that journey.”

This was last May when he gave Popovich said contract.

Popovich is accountable. To Holt and his stakeholders. The writing is on the wall. Looks like you will have to suffer.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs fans are both spoiled and completely lacking of any knowledge about basketball whatsoever. They'd be better off going to a city unpopulated with so many morons.

[scott]

:lol all that line by line and still no discussion of actual basketball.

You mean other than the 5 year contract?

“His ability to connect and spend time and bounce between the really detailed development of basketball players and the bigger picture of developing people is just so impressive,” Spurs managing partner Peter J. Holt said in May. “I think no matter what Pop does, he’s going to find a way to do that because that’s in his heart. And I’m excited to see whatever the next phase is in that journey.”

This was last May when he gave Popovich said contract.

Popovich is accountable. To Holt and his stakeholders. The writing is on the wall. Looks like you will have to suffer.

At the end of basketball games, they award wins and losses, right? How we doing on that front?

Since you won’t directly answer what this FO has done in the last 7 years to give you confidence they can build a winner (seems like that is “about basketball”)… I’ll just assume it’s because Peter Holt said some nice things about the person he gave a record breaking contract to. At least that’s cleared up. Thanks.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

At the end of basketball games, they award wins and losses, right? How we doing on that front?

i have no interest in the play-in treadmill. I am cool they took a questionable shooting team and subtracted it's best shooter.

[TD 21]

Wait for him to get there then spend , that is what all great sustainable teams have done.

Who says they can get what they need when they want it? If it can be gotten now, it'll help expedite his growth.


.Little of what you write here has anything to do with basketball. It is just complaints about his abrasiveness and politics.

I realize you didn't ask me, but just to be clear, my contention is with neither of those two things (though the former is played out).



I will stand up for Wright a bit and say that we don't know how empowered he really is. Is he making the ultimate decisions on draft day, or is the board set by Pop?

My point exactly. It's not to absolve Wright so much as put his role into context.

The only thing I've ever heard on that front was Windhorst a few years ago saying there was internal disagreement on how to proceed. It seemed the old guard was opposed to a full on re-build. Soon after, the teardown began in earnest.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

At the end of basketball games, they award wins and losses, right? How we doing on that front?

Since you won’t directly answer what this FO has done in the last 7 years to give you confidence they can build a winner (seems like that is “about basketball”)… I’ll just assume it’s because Peter Holt said some nice things about the person he gave a record breaking contract to. At least that’s cleared up. Thanks.

I already told you directly that I liked the way they were developing Wemby. i think he has a much better shot to have a 10+ year HoF type career with how they are handling him.

I like the power structure with Wright in the mix. I understand their plan to leverage their player development while stocking up and maximizing draft slots.

Then of course there is the majority of his career that you bias out of hand.

[timtonymanu]

Spurs fans are both spoiled and completely lacking of any knowledge about basketball whatsoever. They'd be better off going to a city unpopulated with so many morons.

Says the poster who brings nothing of substance. It’s like rinse and repeat with your dumbass.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol well according to the old man, we don’t know what we’re talking about if we criticize his coaching. His crappy record with a generational talent doesn’t already “say it all.”

for fun, can you give us the quote of what he actually said?

[Chinook]

The team is watchable. Winning and being watchable don't have to be the same thing. I basically agree with the take that you can't expect a team that was torn down to the studs is going to turn things around in one year. You have to use selective cognition to hold the team to a higher standard than most other rebuilding clubs. Like the poster who said the Spurs have spent more time in the lottery than anyone else while ignoring that they've been 9-12 in those years and the blatant lie given that Detroit and Charlotte have been in the lottery since 2017 rather than the Spurs only entering that range in 2020.

A lot of things I've said before could be applied here, and I'm not gonna spend a lot time just repeating those. Just briefly: Wemby is playing well, the team is playing with him better, due to the choices they made in the off-season it's in the team's best interest to lose, Wemby's not going to leave for years, and him not wanting to lose games is not a sign of trouble but a sign of him being a competitor. The thing about an uncomfortable period of time is that it only seems short in retrospect. During that time, it's lose and grueling and not all that fun.

I agree with the idea that fans who are struggling to find enjoyment right now take a break from watching the team. That's not because they aren't "true fans" or whatever. It's because the Spurs are at a point where they aren't going to even be in a position to make big changes for a while. It's like if you were on a transatlantic voyage and and were complaining about how stupid it is to be using a ship. It's like whether you're right or wrong, you're already on the ship and won't get off it until the trip is complete. The Spurs are in a very good position for the choice they've seemingly made. They have one good lotto pick and another that seems likely. They a young gold-chip prospect who's justifying his hype. Their second-best player has added a lot to his game. Their non-natural picks seem to be lining up to have good value. The Collins extension was an obvious miss, but it's the only black mark on the team's near future.

We've gone over how teams can accelerate badly and how often they make that choice. I'm happy they haven't already done that. They've chosen a different approach, and it's way too soon to determine if that was a mistake. I think even if they chose to accelerate going forward, this year will have played an important role in facilitating that. That cost of what they've gained was worth the small price of wearing on some folks' patience.

[GAustex]

Spurs fans are both spoiled and completely lacking of any knowledge about basketball whatsoever. They'd be better off going to a city unpopulated with so many morons.
this from the moron who thought the spurs we surefire over in Vegas

[gambit1990]

OP is me once the spurs traded kawhi for demar.

[TrainOfThought5]

I've been a Spurs fan for over 2 decades now. Like many of us, I've been spoiled by the beautiful, poetic, high level of basketball the spurs use to play. Man I miss those days!:cry This season has been really painful to watch. Of course the only thing that's stopping me from turning of the tv wemby.

I completely understand that this team is young and learning but man last year's team was tanking and was better than this team. I don't think we were planning tanking this year. The level of IQ being displayed by some of the players who are in their 3rd or 4th year is shocking.

Keldon has taken a step backward this year. Keldon's energy is great but his offensive game, defensive game and bball IQ has stalled.
I'm really surprised why Champagne is on the court. He does not right. He's not making shots, can't create for himself or others, defense sucks, freakin he can't even make a simple pass to a 7'4 guy.
Vassel's offensive game has grown but he's such a one dimensional player. He looks for his own shot first, he makes so many bad decisions on offense. The way he's developing, his game won't fit Wemby's.
Sochan's offensive game is limited but man I love watching him play defense. Its a beauty to see him lock players on defense.
Wesley is slowly gaining his confidence back and growing. I always thought that Wesley is a better prospect than branham.
other guys like Collins, Branham, Osman we know they are not in the long term plans of the Spurs so they are not worth discussing


I understand that most of these guys won't be on the team next year. Hopefully the team next season is just smarter than this team. We can see how badly Wemby wants to win. Right now he's buying into the "Process" but the last thing Spurs want is a frustrated generational talent.

Sorry for my rant. I just needed this to get it off my chest lol


a real Point Guard will solve half of these problems.

[Gagnrath]

What I think might be the case:

I don't know anything about Holt Jr., but looking at his credentials, he wouldn't have his position with the Spurs or HoltCat if his last name wasn't Holt. This likely means that he is overly reliant on the CEO and President of the organization. This is a perfectly fine way to run an NBA franchise, and I don't have any reason to believe the CEO and the President are doing a bad job of running the business of the Spurs - in fact, it appears they are doing great. They are bringing in tons of new sponsorship dollars, have a new state-of-the-art practice facility, are poised to get the public to pay for a new arena for them, etc.

I only have one criticism of the CEO and President: they aren't holding the GM and HC accountable to the product. This is because, of course, the President is the Head Coach, and to hold the GM accountable would mean that he'd also have to hold himself (as President) accountable).


It could also be that there is a succession plan with a HC short list that the plan is to get the crap years out of the way under pop to protect the new guy instead of having a coaching hotseat during the 3-4 year down period... The first two years of missed play-offs were somewhat accidental.

[gambit1990]

I agree. FO should be embarrassed about the product they're putting on the court
the worst part is they're not worried about charting a different course.


100%. This season is the biggest let-down in Spurs history (post #1 draft pick). NO coach, literally NONE, would be in the driver's seat this long into the season other than Pop. He's clearly abused his position.

Worst part - there's no light at the end of the tunnel with how mid this draft is, and the Spurs never want to spend money they don't have to. We're in the midst of a tragedy, that I hope is only one season long but will likely extend for several. And many of the losers on this board are big fans of that.
yeah, i posted early in the season that the spurs should do the opposite of what pop just said recently. the spurs should rush. don't wait years. if i'm wemby and next year is close to this year... i'm asking out tbh.

[gambit1990]

the spurs should've swung for the fences via trade early this season.

[gambit1990]

I agree with the idea that fans who are struggling to find enjoyment right now take a break from watching the team. That's not because they aren't "true fans" or whatever. It's because the Spurs are at a point where they aren't going to even be in a position to make big changes for a while.
it's about struggling to find enjoyment due to lack of prospects on the roster. how do you manage to miss that ?? the spurs aren't okc when shai arrived. the spurs aren't the braintrust of the heat getting to the finals when they had no business doing so.



It's like if you were on a transatlantic voyage and and were complaining about how stupid it is to be using a ship. It's like whether you're right or wrong, you're already on the ship and won't get off it until the trip is complete.
this analogy is absolutely dogshît.

Chinook's posts are 100% like his profile picture, he can't see outside of the pond that he's in.

he says you won't get off the ship until the trip is complete. how about all the people who died along their transatlantic voyage? :lol

you should try selling water to a whale.

[Spursfanfromafar]

While I largely agree with scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150)'s views.. some points of differences -

1. The Spurs are regressing in the last 7 years (since Nephew got Pachulia'ed) and haven't made the playoffs since 2018-19 when the Midrange Maestros (Demar and Lamarcus) went toe-to-toe with the early version of the Denver dynasty and lost 3-4 in a closely fought 1st round. His argument - no other Coach/ FO would have survived such a long regression or the absence of playoff basketball. I agree. Any other team would have fired its coach and hired someone else for a new rebuild during such a drought.

But there is a subtle difference within the Spurs. The Spurs went for a pivot away from the Leonard era by getting DeRozan, a relatively much more flawed player and tried to contend. And they reached a peak in 2018-19 and by that time LMA was declining too. The Spurs again tried to make hay with homegrown talent in Murray and White plus useful role players such as Poeltl, but I think Pop could only do so much with the talent he had and I think the Spurs did creditably to reach the play-in in the covid years ('20, '21 and '22).

2022-23 was the key season that the Spurs rightly used to go for a hard rebuild and they did well to luck into Wemby. I would discount this year from the seven that scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150) talked about. In the rest, the Spurs made the playoffs in two (17-18 and 18-19 despite losing a superstar out of pique), and made the play-in in three with just role players and one all-Star. Pop and his assistants could only do so much with the talent they had and I think they maximized it in terms of outcomes.

That means if 2022-23 is discounted, 2023-24 is the first truly bad season for Pop as a coach relative to the talent he had. The Spurs are still supposed to be bad, but with Wemby they should be better than 2022-23 but as many have rightly said, some key role players such as Keldon regressed, some made improvements but also had periods of regression (Sochan) and some are so bad that they showed little improvement (Branham).

But look at what happened in the six years since Nephew left - the Spurs got good picks in the late first round in White and Murray.. one of them developed into an All-Star while playing for the Spurs itself and the other is probably the best role player in the NBA today, thanks largely to great honing by Pop and co. Even Lonnie Walker has managed to stick in the league as a crucial bench player after disappointing to live upto his draft position (19th). And the only clear disappointments/ busts have been Samanic (19) and Primo (12). The blame for this has got to PATFO front office rather than the coaching staff.

2. The next question to be asked is.. even if the years since Nephew left are seen as utter failures, should Pop have resigned after we drafted Wemby or should he have continued as he did. The evidence from this season shows that the first choice seems more correct, but I think some credit has to go to Pop for developing Wemby's overall game and honing his mentality so well that he is outgrowing his already astounding learning curve relative to talent. So, in that sense, Pop should be given the chance to see what he can do with better talent around Wemby while helping Wemby reach further heights.

3. So, the sum and substance of what I am saying is that, yes, this season has been a huge disappointment and Coach Pop has been a relative failure compared to his own past and also other young coaches who have help mold contending teams with young talent- Taylor Jenkins with the Grizz (before Morant's moronic acts), Daigneault with Thunder and Mosley with Magic come to mind. But apart from Wemby and probably Vassell, no other player would have been starting with any of the other teams or even be in a core-eight lineup. While the starting lineup of all the other teams would walk into the Spurs' starting lineup around Wemby and the Spurs will be a far better side, maybe Wemby would have even been in a sure-shot championship contender, if say he was with the Thunder instead of Chet, despite an outstanding season by the latter.

In other words, it is the Front Office that is on the line now and not the coaching staff. The only true drawback for Pop is his age, I believe, but it seems that hasn't dulled his passion for the game.

Here's where I will agree with scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150) and others who are asking for accelerating the process around Wemby instead of it being played out in the form of draft picks, minor free agents, conservative trades and spending. Wemby is so good that the future is now. There is a good chance that the Spurs can contend for the playoffs next year while retaining up and coming talent, plus the ability to draft a game changer because they have enough FRPs and a load of seconds.

I wrote this in a lengthy prior post but the Spurs FO should go no holds barred on all three fronts in the offseason - Drafting, Trades and Free Agency. They must prioritise a two-play potential All-Star via trade and be willing to give up a portion of their draft treasure to get one. My choice has been Mikal Bridges who is gettable because the Nets suck, their owner has taken enormous losses and they need to bottom out to get better.

But the Spurs can also smartly utilise various factors such as the Celtics going to have a mountain of salary to pay next season with Brown's extension, the Warriors' going to try to break-up a chunk of their squad to wiggle out of their monstrous repeater tax (potentially making Klay Thompson and certainly Wiggins available), the Nuggets having to factor in luxury tax payments as small market team (and making someone like Aaron Gordon being available), the Clippers probably wanting to choose between Paul George and James Harden after having to pay hefty repeater tax (which Ballmer can easily afford, unfortunately), the T'wolves having to give up a useful role player or two to avoid luxury tax too (Naz Reid?), Phoenix potentially blowing it up and so on.

The Spurs must use their cap room and trade to address one key shortcoming around Wemby - the lack of a two-way wing beyond Vassell -- that won't be possible immediately through the draft. But they can use the draft in 2024 to get one more young talent who can use the Murray/White/ Anderson/Green/ Hill route to developing into a useful player. And they should also try to upgrade on PG by getting Tre's brother who is eminently gettable too and/ or get Topic to back up one of the Joneses.

The possibilities are immense if the Spurs apply a clear and aggressive stance to make the squad much better around Wemby without giving up on the ability to draft high in the future using some of their Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Chicago and their own picks. The alternative - being conservative, predicated upon the Hinkie method of using the draft or the Presti method (which worked largely because they got Shai in their bottoming out trades) will not be of great use to Wemby's growth and his ambition.

So Brian Wright is the one who should be on the hot-seat in the offseason. And if Wright fails to improve the squad and Pop repeats what we are seeing this season in 2024-25.. it should herald a complete reset of PATFO into completely new personnel both in coaching and in the FO. That is how the Spurs must plan for the immediate future.

[JPB]

The team is watchable. Winning and being watchable don't have to be the same thing. I basically agree with the take that you can't expect a team that was torn down to the studs is going to turn things around in one year. You have to use selective cognition to hold the team to a higher standard than most other rebuilding clubs. Like the poster who said the Spurs have spent more time in the lottery than anyone else while ignoring that they've been 9-12 in those years and the blatant lie given that Detroit and Charlotte have been in the lottery since 2017 rather than the Spurs only entering that range in 2020.

A lot of things I've said before could be applied here, and I'm not gonna spend a lot time just repeating those. Just briefly: Wemby is playing well, the team is playing with him better, due to the choices they made in the off-season it's in the team's best interest to lose, Wemby's not going to leave for years, and him not wanting to lose games is not a sign of trouble but a sign of him being a competitor. The thing about an uncomfortable period of time is that it only seems short in retrospect. During that time, it's lose and grueling and not all that fun.

I agree with the idea that fans who are struggling to find enjoyment right now take a break from watching the team. That's not because they aren't "true fans" or whatever. It's because the Spurs are at a point where they aren't going to even be in a position to make big changes for a while. It's like if you were on a transatlantic voyage and and were complaining about how stupid it is to be using a ship. It's like whether you're right or wrong, you're already on the ship and won't get off it until the trip is complete. The Spurs are in a very good position for the choice they've seemingly made. They have one good lotto pick and another that seems likely. They a young gold-chip prospect who's justifying his hype. Their second-best player has added a lot to his game. Their non-natural picks seem to be lining up to have good value. The Collins extension was an obvious miss, but it's the only black mark on the team's near future.

We've gone over how teams can accelerate badly and how often they make that choice. I'm happy they haven't already done that. They've chosen a different approach, and it's way too soon to determine if that was a mistake. I think even if they chose to accelerate going forward, this year will have played an important role in facilitating that. That cost of what they've gained was worth the small price of wearing on some folks' patience.

Nah, they're unwatchable. People are just checking Wemby's highlights on YT.

[tbdog]

I find them unwatchable at times. Because they are really bad. The way the NBA is now, things get ugly quickly. I am enjoying the growth of Wemby, Sochan, and Vassell. But Sochan is super inconsistent, which is expected. Vassell is still too inconsistent, which is not expected. I've seen enough of Johnson and Jones to know what type of ceiling they will have. Brenham has been the most disappointing because the growth is too slow and stagnant this season, and Wesley has a shot to be a point of attack defender. Barlow is intriguing at best. The rest won't be in the NBA for long. Maybe Champeganie might have enough of skill set to find a future.

[Chinook]

Nah, they're unwatchable. People are just checking Wemby's highlights on YT.

No, a lot of people are actually watching the games. I do agree there are plenty of folks who are seeing the highlights too, and that's how they come to the impression Wemby is farther along than he is. They think the good is him and the bad is everyone else, when in reality there has been a lot of evidence for Wemby needing to grow. No one can make you enjoying watching anything. Gambit admits the Spurs without Kawhi were unwatchable for him, and that's why he became a Raptors fan. For me, the 2017-2018 season was one of my favorites. I also had a lot of fun watching the 2021-2022 season. The full season matters less to me than the game-to-game endorphin hits. While Wemby is his own enjoyment, I'd be having fun watching Scoot, Miller or Thompson figure it out too. To me, I can't see OP's point at all. Letting someone like Champ be a point of frustration makes no sense to me.

[Chinook]

it's about struggling to find enjoyment due to lack of prospects on the roster. how do you manage to miss that ?? the spurs aren't okc when shai arrived. the spurs aren't the braintrust of the heat getting to the finals when they had no business doing so.

It's about struggling to find enjoyment because a team that became bad enough to get the first-overall pick is still bad one year into having that pick. For years folks bitched about the Spurs "not picking a lane". Now they pick one, and folks want them to switch. "Picking a lane" means sticking to a plan. You don't "blow it up" for one draft and then immediately have it back together.

I do think it's funny that you mention the Thunder as if they had a lot of prospects when SGA arrived. The only person still on the team from Shai's first year is Dort. That team had 10 other guys in their first three years, and only one of them made it. Somehow, the Thunder managed to survive.


he says you won't get off the ship until the trip is complete. how about all the people who died along their transatlantic voyage? :lol

The point is not "You're on a ship, so you'll be fine." The point is "You bitching won't make the ship go faster, so STFU." I'm not surprised you missed that analogy. If you want to jump overboard and drown, that's your right. But for everyone else who isn't enjoying watching the ocean move by, I recommend just staying in their cabins for a while.

[Fireball]

Sorry, but I am not missing out watching 30 minutes of Wemby each game. He is special and yes I shake my head a lot during games because of the incompetencies of this team. But two of the three last games were fun to watch.

[SpursBills]

Like it or not, I don't think the spurs are going to use those Atlanta picks for a big swing. This is how I see it based on what we know about the team and ownership right now:

1. Wemby is a cash cow for the franchise. Holt isn't an idiot, he will fire everybody if it means he gets to hang onto him for longer. There are literally billions of dollars at stake here, so ownership is way more motivated to keep him than casual fans like us who have little to no financial stake in the team. But more importantly, they want to hang onto him for as long as possible.
2. Spurs probably don't want to pay a ton of tax over the course of Wemby's career unless they get big financial backers. Holt is rich, but this isn't like Golden state going hundreds of million into the tax every year.
3. Salaries are getting big enough with mid-career guys that you have to have constant level of churn, even for core pieces, to avoid that luxury tax. The best way to avoid that is to have guys in the early to mid part of their career whose talent does not outstrip their salary.
4. This means that the Spurs would prefer a period of sustained excellence after the initial 3-4 years of pain where they are never a "dominant" team, but are always one of the best teams. They would prefer this to having a 5 year period of dominance followed by a decline where they're capped out or no longer have assets.

What's going to end up happening is that the Spurs are going to be bad for a while longer. Wemby is not going to ask out as long as he continues to see improvement and the team is on a reasonable trajectory to contention. As long as they are in contention by the end of his rookie contract (3 years from now) and he sees a reasonable path forward, he's not going to ask out. This is pure conjecture, but in my mind Wemby sees his path to GOAT as Duncan's longevity, ability to win, and importantly being with the same team for most if not all of his career combined with Wilt-like numbers. Maybe wishful thinking but he doesn't seem like the team-hopping type of guy like LeBron or Durant and would view that as something that diminishes his legacy. And even if he is clearly unhappy, it's a big step to assume he's going to take the qualifying offer just to be a free agent after his rookie deal ends. As bad as the product on the court is this year, the time to panic isn't right now.

The time to panic is probably spring of 2026. By that time Vassell will be 25 going on 26. He should be a borderline all-star at that point with the ability to score from all 3 levels efficiently. Sochan will be a 23 year old guy in his 4th season who should have cleaned up his jumper, and learned to play defense, and further developed his handles. You will have had almost 2 years to evaluate your high lottery picks from this summer. Until that time, I don't think you have enough evidence to say that this front office is incompetent with regards to evaluating talent. They missed badly on Primo, and they busted on Samanic relative to draft slot. Everyone else (even Lonnie Walker) has been at least a single relative to draft slot and often times more than that. The Hawks picks are probably the second best asset in the league right now after Houston's Nets picks, it looks like they're somehow threading the needle with the Raptors pick, and there may even be hope that the Bulls pick is able to thread the needle in the next few years. That at least shows some level of competence when it comes to evaluating talent on other teams. I just think it's too early to call out front office incompetence until you really get a feel for what they do in these next 2 years. Make no mistake, this summer is the single most important summer of the last decade, they fuck up these 1-2 picks this summer badly enough and history says they're probably not keeping Wemby over the long term. But I'm willing to see what they do going forward and am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

[scott]

Spursfanfromafar - you always have really solid, well thought out takes and I hope you post more often!

[JeffDuncan]

Whether the Spurs are watchable depends on what you want to watch. Good basketball? Nah, skip it. Clown shows? Plenty of that.

Wemby is the only reason the average person should bother to watch the Spurs. The team offers nothing else of any quality.

For fans, well, normal humans are social creatures, and the Spurs offer plenty to talk about. As we know.

What the future holds? Most likely, as long as the same characters are in charge the Spurs will present more of the same problems to talk about. A lousy roster, lousy coaching. The Spurs will continue to be losers as long as the people running the show are losers.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

While I largely agree with scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150)'s views.. some points of differences -

1. The Spurs are regressing in the last 7 years (since Nephew got Pachulia'ed) and haven't made the playoffs since 2018-19 when the Midrange Maestros (Demar and Lamarcus) went toe-to-toe with the early version of the Denver dynasty and lost 3-4 in a closely fought 1st round. His argument - no other Coach/ FO would have survived such a long regression or the absence of playoff basketball. I agree. Any other team would have fired its coach and hired someone else for a new rebuild during such a drought.

But there is a subtle difference within the Spurs. The Spurs went for a pivot away from the Leonard era by getting DeRozan, a relatively much more flawed player and tried to contend. And they reached a peak in 2018-19 and by that time LMA was declining too. The Spurs again tried to make hay with homegrown talent in Murray and White plus useful role players such as Poeltl, but I think Pop could only do so much with the talent he had and I think the Spurs did creditably to reach the play-in in the covid years ('20, '21 and '22).

2022-23 was the key season that the Spurs rightly used to go for a hard rebuild and they did well to luck into Wemby. I would discount this year from the seven that scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150) talked about. In the rest, the Spurs made the playoffs in two (17-18 and 18-19 despite losing a superstar out of pique), and made the play-in in three with just role players and one all-Star. Pop and his assistants could only do so much with the talent they had and I think they maximized it in terms of outcomes.

That means if 2022-23 is discounted, 2023-24 is the first truly bad season for Pop as a coach relative to the talent he had. The Spurs are still supposed to be bad, but with Wemby they should be better than 2022-23 but as many have rightly said, some key role players such as Keldon regressed, some made improvements but also had periods of regression (Sochan) and some are so bad that they showed little improvement (Branham).

But look at what happened in the six years since Nephew left - the Spurs got good picks in the late first round in White and Murray.. one of them developed into an All-Star while playing for the Spurs itself and the other is probably the best role player in the NBA today, thanks largely to great honing by Pop and co. Even Lonnie Walker has managed to stick in the league as a crucial bench player after disappointing to live upto his draft position (19th). And the only clear disappointments/ busts have been Samanic (19) and Primo (12). The blame for this has got to PATFO front office rather than the coaching staff.

2. The next question to be asked is.. even if the years since Nephew left are seen as utter failures, should Pop have resigned after we drafted Wemby or should he have continued as he did. The evidence from this season shows that the first choice seems more correct, but I think some credit has to go to Pop for developing Wemby's overall game and honing his mentality so well that he is outgrowing his already astounding learning curve relative to talent. So, in that sense, Pop should be given the chance to see what he can do with better talent around Wemby while helping Wemby reach further heights.

3. So, the sum and substance of what I am saying is that, yes, this season has been a huge disappointment and Coach Pop has been a relative failure compared to his own past and also other young coaches who have help mold contending teams with young talent- Taylor Jenkins with the Grizz (before Morant's moronic acts), Daigneault with Thunder and Mosley with Magic come to mind. But apart from Wemby and probably Vassell, no other player would have been starting with any of the other teams or even be in a core-eight lineup. While the starting lineup of all the other teams would walk into the Spurs' starting lineup around Wemby and the Spurs will be a far better side, maybe Wemby would have even been in a sure-shot championship contender, if say he was with the Thunder instead of Chet, despite an outstanding season by the latter.

In other words, it is the Front Office that is on the line now and not the coaching staff. The only true drawback for Pop is his age, I believe, but it seems that hasn't dulled his passion for the game.

Here's where I will agree with scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150) and others who are asking for accelerating the process around Wemby instead of it being played out in the form of draft picks, minor free agents, conservative trades and spending. Wemby is so good that the future is now. There is a good chance that the Spurs can contend for the playoffs next year while retaining up and coming talent, plus the ability to draft a game changer because they have enough FRPs and a load of seconds.

I wrote this in a lengthy prior post but the Spurs FO should go no holds barred on all three fronts in the offseason - Drafting, Trades and Free Agency. They must prioritise a two-play potential All-Star via trade and be willing to give up a portion of their draft treasure to get one. My choice has been Mikal Bridges who is gettable because the Nets suck, their owner has taken enormous losses and they need to bottom out to get better.

But the Spurs can also smartly utilise various factors such as the Celtics going to have a mountain of salary to pay next season with Brown's extension, the Warriors' going to try to break-up a chunk of their squad to wiggle out of their monstrous repeater tax (potentially making Klay Thompson and certainly Wiggins available), the Nuggets having to factor in luxury tax payments as small market team (and making someone like Aaron Gordon being available), the Clippers probably wanting to choose between Paul George and James Harden after having to pay hefty repeater tax (which Ballmer can easily afford, unfortunately), the T'wolves having to give up a useful role player or two to avoid luxury tax too (Naz Reid?), Phoenix potentially blowing it up and so on.

The Spurs must use their cap room and trade to address one key shortcoming around Wemby - the lack of a two-way wing beyond Vassell -- that won't be possible immediately through the draft. But they can use the draft in 2024 to get one more young talent who can use the Murray/White/ Anderson/Green/ Hill route to developing into a useful player. And they should also try to upgrade on PG by getting Tre's brother who is eminently gettable too and/ or get Topic to back up one of the Joneses.

The possibilities are immense if the Spurs apply a clear and aggressive stance to make the squad much better around Wemby without giving up on the ability to draft high in the future using some of their Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Chicago and their own picks. The alternative - being conservative, predicated upon the Hinkie method of using the draft or the Presti method (which worked largely because they got Shai in their bottoming out trades) will not be of great use to Wemby's growth and his ambition.

So Brian Wright is the one who should be on the hot-seat in the offseason. And if Wright fails to improve the squad and Pop repeats what we are seeing this season in 2024-25.. it should herald a complete reset of PATFO into completely new personnel both in coaching and in the FO. That is how the Spurs must plan for the immediate future.

Who is against the Spurs trading or signing FA to get talent?

I don't know that any pick or player is off limits other than Wemby himself in any discussion we have had around here. With the Spurs benching KJ and admitting they overestimated their talent in self scout there is plenty writing on the wall.

[JPB]

No, a lot of people are actually watching the games. I do agree there are plenty of folks who are seeing the highlights too, and that's how they come to the impression Wemby is farther along than he is. They think the good is him and the bad is everyone else, when in reality there has been a lot of evidence for Wemby needing to grow. No one can make you enjoying watching anything. Gambit admits the Spurs without Kawhi were unwatchable for him, and that's why he became a Raptors fan. For me, the 2017-2018 season was one of my favorites. I also had a lot of fun watching the 2021-2022 season. The full season matters less to me than the game-to-game endorphin hits. While Wemby is his own enjoyment, I'd be having fun watching Scoot, Miller or Thompson figure it out too. To me, I can't see OP's point at all. Letting someone like Champ be a point of frustration makes no sense to me.

Game threads barely reach 5-6 pages on here. And that includes the first presentation page... The last 4 pages are just "man, we suck so bad"...

[RC_Drunkford]

the team is watchable in the first quarter. After that I usually turn the game off cause we down 20

[scott]

I watch every game that isn't blacked out where I live (which tends to be LA-based teams). I definitely wouldn't call them unwatchable (unless I am a complete masochist), but you definitely have to approach each game with a different perspective than in years past. At this point, I agree with others that I'd like to see some more Dom, some Sidi, and maybe some increased run from Wesley. I don't think there is much more to be learned from watching Cedi (who I actually like for this team and hope we bring back) and Zach (who I don't like at all :lol)

[Spursfanfromafar]

Lots of good points -


Like it or not, I don't think the spurs are going to use those Atlanta picks for a big swing. This is how I see it based on what we know about the team and ownership right now...

2. Spurs probably don't want to pay a ton of tax over the course of Wemby's career unless they get big financial backers. Holt is rich, but this isn't like Golden state going hundreds of million into the tax every year.

True.
3. Salaries are getting big enough with mid-career guys that you have to have constant level of churn, even for core pieces, to avoid that luxury tax. The best way to avoid that is to have guys in the early to mid part of their career whose talent does not outstrip their salary.

Slight disagreement here. There are players out there who are No 3s, No 4s or even No 2s in contending teams, and in the mid part of their careers, who can be had by the Spurs till the time Wemby's own salary goes up to match his superstar status, when he reaches it. So from Wemby's 2nd year to his 4th year, if the Spurs can get another borderline all-star or a good two way player to pair with him and Vassell and make up the rest of the roster with good role players, they can still pay salaries close or just above the cap.

And then, when the draft talent that they identify from the remaining of the picks that the Spurs have, they can groom the next No 2 / 3 to Wemby and trade out the moderately played No 2/3. This process needn't always be draft-driven for salary purposes, is what I am saying.

4. This means that the Spurs would prefer a period of sustained excellence after the initial 3-4 years of pain where they are never a "dominant" team, but are always one of the best teams. They would prefer this to having a 5 year period of dominance followed by a decline where they're capped out or no longer have assets.

I am not sure the fan-base is keen on 3-4 years of pain after a run of 5 seasons of no playoffs and no contention. Gate prices will crash, interest will dwindle, Wemby's own motivation as a competitor will flag for sure. If by "pain", you mean the pain of losing in the 1st or 2nd round in the playoffs, that is another matter. That will be akin to what Duncan went through during the Lakers Kobe-Shaq domination period. It only made him even better a player.

For that kind of contention, you can wait for the drafts to help you out. You need to use the FA, trade market.

...

Make no mistake, this summer is the single most important summer of the last decade, they fuck up these 1-2 picks this summer badly enough and history says they're probably not keeping Wemby over the long term. But I'm willing to see what they do going forward and am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

I am willing to give the benefit of doubt to PATFO too but the countdown starts in the 2024 offseason itself. Any more goof-ups like the atrocious Primo pick or lame trades to pick up non-playing veterans or those who will be cut and repeatedly playing turd lineups like Champagnie, Branham, Collins, Mamu etc to surround Wemby.. will test not only the fanbase's patience but that of Wemby himself.

[MannyIsGod]

National reporters generally don't criticize him either.

This is just false. I can list off a ton of national media folks who have had plenty of criticisms of him over the past two years especially. It reached an all time high this year with his refusal to start a fucking point guard for half the season.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is just false. I can list off a ton of national media folks who have had plenty of criticisms of him over the past two years especially. It reached an all time high this year with his refusal to start a fucking point guard for half the season.

You seem to struggle with the idea of generally.

[spurs10]

Of all this, I'm reminded that the FO decided to reward all the season ticket holders who hung in with them to 20-25% raise in prices. We all know they are not going anywhere this season, but losing games in the last few minutes gets old. I'm in a quandary about who is staying. If our starting five remains the same so will our record. Perfect world if we acquire a PG and SF that's a step in the right direction. If they are both found in the draft we have a another season of learning the ropes. If we get a veteran PG maybe we pick up the pace next season.

[baseline bum]

Of all this, I'm reminded that the FO decided to reward all the season ticket holders who hung in with them to 20-25% raise in prices. We all know they are not going anywhere this season, but losing games in the last few minutes gets old. I'm in a quandary about who is staying. If our starting five remains the same so will our record. Perfect world if we acquire a PG and SF that's a step in the right direction. If they are both found in the draft we have a another season of learning the ropes. If we get a veteran PG maybe we pick up the pace next season.

Of course they were going to go up getting Wemby vs last year when they had nobody. And they'll keep going up as the team gets better. Only thing they won't ever do is go down.

[MannyIsGod]

You seem to struggle with the idea of generally.

You are a Spurs fan, which is fine, but its clear you generally don't consume a lot of NBA content outside of stuff that is Spurs related. You have a very bad grasp on what goes on re: the NBA outside of direct Spurs related media. Criticism of Pop isn't a rare thing right now. It is VERY wide spread. It is to the point that I can't think of a single NBA podcast that I listen to that has not criticized Pop. The Wemby spotlight has been good for many reasons, but people are also now watching the Spurs who haven't in years and seeing ridiculous decisions and the reaction is there.

tis fine that you don't know this, but Jesus fucking Christ you really should tone down the snark on shit that is so easy to demonstrate you incorrect. There's like 3 or 4 of you who not only say stupid incorrect shit because you're talking out of your ass but then decide to act like the other person is a fool. Very Trumpy of you, honestly.

[MannyIsGod]

RE: OP, the team is pretty watchable when Wemby is in, honestly. Tune in and get to see crazy shit almost every game. My personal enjoyment craters at the 6 minute mark of the 1q when I see Collins come to the scorers table, but as I frequently watch the game a bit delayed on the DVR, I've just started to fast forward through those parts of the game. This is not the most enjoyable Spurs season ever, but its a million times more watchable than last year. Right now its enjoyable to watch certain players, namely Devin, Wesley, and to an extent Sochan, because they're showing improvement from the early season as well.

On Pop coaching up Wemby, I don't see it. It was clear that Pop hindered Wemby for a good 2-3 months of this season with his lineup choices and by also refusing to coach the team. We've finally seen glimpses of Pop showing some tough love to players including Wemby but honestly this is something that should have happened earlier. I don't think Pop in any way has ruined Wemby but its pretty hard to make a case that decisions that Pop has made have been a reason behind Wemby's improvement. The reporting on the kid for years has been that he was incredibly mature. He's a 20 year old that goes to be at 9pm and plays Chess. He cares an insane amount about winning over everything else. This is just who Wemby is and I'm not about to give Pop credit for that. I just can't fathom what people are giving Pop credit for here. Wemby is just a great fucking player.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are a Spurs fan, which is fine, but its clear you generally don't consume a lot of NBA content outside of stuff that is Spurs related. You have a very bad grasp on what goes on re: the NBA outside of direct Spurs related media. Criticism of Pop isn't a rare thing right now. It is VERY wide spread. It is to the point that I can't think of a single NBA podcast that I listen to that has not criticized Pop. The Wemby spotlight has been good for many reasons, but people are also now watching the Spurs who haven't in years and seeing ridiculous decisions and the reaction is there.

tis fine that you don't know this, but Jesus fucking Christ you really should tone down the snark on shit that is so easy to demonstrate you incorrect. There's like 3 or 4 of you who not only say stupid incorrect shit because you're talking out of your ass but then decide to act like the other person is a fool. Very Trumpy of you, honestly.

You're wrong about my consumption. Any more assumptions about me you want to base your entire argument on? I do like how you are desperate for expertise.

I said, generally. Your following deduction clearly did not consider that. You have since dropped that to whine about something else. It was stupid. Deal with it.

[baseline bum]

RE: OP, the team is pretty watchable when Wemby is in, honestly. Tune in and get to see crazy shit almost every game. My personal enjoyment craters at the 6 minute mark of the 1q when I see Collins come to the scorers table, but as I frequently watch the game a bit delayed on the DVR, I've just started to fast forward through those parts of the game. This is not the most enjoyable Spurs season ever, but its a million times more watchable than last year. Right now its enjoyable to watch certain players, namely Devin, Wesley, and to an extent Sochan, because they're showing improvement from the early season as well.

On Pop coaching up Wemby, I don't see it. It was clear that Pop hindered Wemby for a good 2-3 months of this season with his lineup choices and by also refusing to coach the team. We've finally seen glimpses of Pop showing some tough love to players including Wemby but honestly this is something that should have happened earlier. I don't think Pop in any way has ruined Wemby but its pretty hard to make a case that decisions that Pop has made have been a reason behind Wemby's improvement. The reporting on the kid for years has been that he was incredibly mature. He's a 20 year old that goes to be at 9pm and plays Chess. He cares an insane amount about winning over everything else. This is just who Wemby is and I'm not about to give Pop credit for that. I just can't fathom what people are giving Pop credit for here. Wemby is just a great fucking player.

As soon as I see Collins walk to the scorer's table I know it's time to use the bathroom, take the dog out, make a sandwich, etc. When Barlow gets the backup minutes I still like to watch, but Collins just seems a lost cause these days.

[MannyIsGod]

You're wrong about my consumption. Any more assumptions about me you want to base your entire argument on? I do like how you are desperate for expertise.

I said, generally. Your following deduction clearly did not consider that. You have since dropped that to whine about something else. It was stupid. Deal with it.

K so generally don't criticize is correct when the majority of NBA media is criticizing? You're right though, I did assume that you were wrong because you didn't consume media. Maybe you do and you're just a fucking moron. Definitely my bad on that one.

[MannyIsGod]

As soon as I see Collins walk to the scorer's table I know it's time to use the bathroom, take the dog out, make a sandwich, etc. When Barlow gets the backup minutes I still like to watch, but Collins just seems a lost cause these days.

Its Collins and Branham that I really just can't watch right now. You're right though, I don't mind watching when Wemby is on the bench if its Barlow who comes in.

[scott]

If Bassey didn't get hurt playing in a meaningless G-League game (for the second straight year), I would have gotten some enjoyment out of watching him get minutes as well. I'm not giving up hope on my fellow Yellow Jacket.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

K so generally don't criticize is correct men the majority of NBA media is criticizing is correct to you? You're right though, I did assume that you were wrong because you didn't consume media. Maybe you do and you're just a fucking moron. Definitely my bad on that one.

Well you have not established your expertise. if you want to trot out Perkins, Bayless, et al and have that discussion we can but sorry MIG you are no expert on sports media opinions.

Nevermind the actual argument you are jumping in the middle of and the timeframes that were being discussed.

You just want to be lazy and considered an expert. That actually is Trumpian.

[MannyIsGod]

Well you have not established your expertise. if you want to trot out Perkins, Bayless, et al and have that discussion we can but sorry MIG you are no expert on sports media opinions.

Nevermind the actual argument you are jumping in the middle of and the timeframes that were being discussed.

You just want to be lazy and considered an expert. That actually is Trumpian.

Who the fuck listens to Bayless or Perkins? I'm talking about people like Nate Duncan, Hollinger, or if you want to go the more ESPNish route, Lowe and Simmons. But fucking Bayless? LOL. Telling on yourself.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Who the fuck listens to Bayless or Perkins? I'm talking about people like Nate Duncan, Hollinger, or if you want to go the more ESPNish route, Lowe and Simmons. But fucking Bayless? LOL. Telling on yourself.

here you are struggling with the idea of mutual exclusivity and with the idea of generally once again. Just because I am aware of one thing does not mean I am not aware of the other. Further, since we are discussing the media generally and not your hipster ideas of what is important that was particularly stupid.

you going to post the general criticism or no?

[manufan10]

I've watched almost every game, and it's definitely been a struggle. This team is the polar opposite of the beautiful game. I've never seen a team turn the ball over on basic outlet passes as many times as this team does. They also had a stretch where they were getting 3 or more shot clock violations per game. In this day and age that seems unfathomable. They've finally made games at least somewhat competitive, but still hard to watch.

[vy65]

You are a Spurs fan, which is fine, but its clear you generally don't consume a lot of NBA content outside of stuff that is Spurs related. You have a very bad grasp on what goes on re: the NBA outside of direct Spurs related media. Criticism of Pop isn't a rare thing right now. It is VERY wide spread. It is to the point that I can't think of a single NBA podcast that I listen to that has not criticized Pop. The Wemby spotlight has been good for many reasons, but people are also now watching the Spurs who haven't in years and seeing ridiculous decisions and the reaction is there.

tis fine that you don't know this, but Jesus fucking Christ you really should tone down the snark on shit that is so easy to demonstrate you incorrect. There's like 3 or 4 of you who not only say stupid incorrect shit because you're talking out of your ass but then decide to act like the other person is a fool. Very Trumpy of you, honestly.

Bill Simmons - say what you will about him, but he may have the largest market share of NBA commentary - fucking hates Pop and mercilessly ridicules him for the Point Sochan experiment. He refuses to watch Spurs games and is voting Chet ROY as a protest of Pop's decision-making. Other commentators, e.g., Tim Legler, have done the same.

[poopbox]

The team is watchable. Winning and being watchable don't have to be the same thing. I basically agree with the take that you can't expect a team that was torn down to the studs is going to turn things around in one year. You have to use selective cognition to hold the team to a higher standard than most other rebuilding clubs. Like the poster who said the Spurs have spent more time in the lottery than anyone else while ignoring that they've been 9-12 in those years and the blatant lie given that Detroit and Charlotte have been in the lottery since 2017 rather than the Spurs only entering that range in 2020.

A lot of things I've said before could be applied here, and I'm not gonna spend a lot time just repeating those. Just briefly: Wemby is playing well, the team is playing with him better, due to the choices they made in the off-season it's in the team's best interest to lose, Wemby's not going to leave for years, and him not wanting to lose games is not a sign of trouble but a sign of him being a competitor. The thing about an uncomfortable period of time is that it only seems short in retrospect. During that time, it's lose and grueling and not all that fun.

I agree with the idea that fans who are struggling to find enjoyment right now take a break from watching the team. That's not because they aren't "true fans" or whatever. It's because the Spurs are at a point where they aren't going to even be in a position to make big changes for a while. It's like if you were on a transatlantic voyage and and were complaining about how stupid it is to be using a ship. It's like whether you're right or wrong, you're already on the ship and won't get off it until the trip is complete. The Spurs are in a very good position for the choice they've seemingly made. They have one good lotto pick and another that seems likely. They a young gold-chip prospect who's justifying his hype. Their second-best player has added a lot to his game. Their non-natural picks seem to be lining up to have good value. The Collins extension was an obvious miss, but it's the only black mark on the team's near future.

We've gone over how teams can accelerate badly and how often they make that choice. I'm happy they haven't already done that. They've chosen a different approach, and it's way too soon to determine if that was a mistake. I think even if they chose to accelerate going forward, this year will have played an important role in facilitating that. That cost of what they've gained was worth the small price of wearing on some folks' patience.

I mean from an entertainment perspective it's watchable if you only want to dumb out and mindlessly watch basketball. From a basketball perspective of understanding strategy and game planning its absolutely unwatchable because we have the worst strategy, game planning, and execution in the league BY FAR.

People act like all we have to do is put more talent around Wemby and everything will be better ignoring that Pop is a shit coach now and all that additional talent is going to do is showcase how bad of a coach he is...which you are starting to hear murmurs about now if you listen to any basketball podcast.

Ultimately this team isn't really going to go anywhere until they get rid of the outdated fossil coach who doesn't seem to understand anything about modern basketball the same way the Patriots finally realized that they would never go anywhere with a coach who was running 3 tight end sets in an era of football where points are king and was literally hiring failed defensive coordinators to be his co offensive coordinator for his already physically limited quarterback, no matter how many rings he stood on the sideline and watched tom brady win.

Doesn't seem like The Holts got the balls for it like the Crafts did though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bill Simmons - say what you will about him, but he may have the largest market share of NBA commentary - fucking hates Pop and mercilessly ridicules him for the Point Sochan experiment. He refuses to watch Spurs games and is voting Chet ROY as a protest of Pop's decision-making. Other commentators, e.g., Tim Legler, have done the same.

He has hated the Spurs famously ever since we got Duncan. He owns it completely.

I have heard Legler and others talk about it and it was not so much a discussion of it as stupid to even try and more of this shit just is not working. Now what ultimately happened with Sochan at PG?

[vy65]

He has hated the Spurs famously ever since we got Duncan. He owns it completely.

I have heard Legler and others talk about it and it was not so much a discussion of it as stupid to even try and more of this shit just is not working. Now what ultimately happened with Sochan at PG?

So the guy with the biggest NBA-related media capture has always criticized the spurs - and - the national media "generally" doesn't criticize pop? Seriously, stop posting.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So the guy with the biggest NBA-related media capture has always criticized the spurs - and - the national media "generally" doesn't criticize pop? Seriously, stop posting.

yeah that is the only way to look at it. :rolleyes

another is that you picked 1 guy with a schtick and there are many more opinions out there to get an idea of hat is generally thought. moreso, he has been planning our demise since 1997. If he has the same tenor when we are winning O'Brien's then what difference does it make?

You guys are jumping into the middle of an argument. You should do better than fixate on a tree and act like you've done something.

[scott]

I've watched almost every game, and it's definitely been a struggle. This team is the polar opposite of the beautiful game. I've never seen a team turn the ball over on basic outlet passes as many times as this team does. They also had a stretch where they were getting 3 or more shot clock violations per game. In this day and age that seems unfathomable. They've finally made games at least somewhat competitive, but still hard to watch.

Our inability to seemingly make basic inbound passes, not just this year but for several now, is the most mind-blowing thing to me. Which coach is responsible for this one thing?

[Chinook]

I mean from an entertainment perspective it's watchable if you only want to dumb out and mindlessly watch basketball. From a basketball perspective of understanding strategy and game planning its absolutely unwatchable because we have the worst strategy, game planning, and execution in the league BY FAR.

Pop isn't perfect and I'd say was horrible to start the year. But there are worse coaches in the league. I think we can all define what "watchable" means to us, but if you're going to say "Sure, it's entertaining but not watchable", it's going to be a bit award. The Spurs don't really seem to have much strategy nowadays, which is a product of having no playoff series for years and no vets. Pop's highest-level idea has been trying to put random players on the best opposing players and maybe doubling. He hasn't had to work out a long-term solution for a player since Jokic in 2019, and he's been trying to create the perimeter defenders he used to be able to rely on the Medium Three era.


People act like all we have to do is put more talent around Wemby and everything will be better ignoring that Pop is a shit coach now and all that additional talent is going to do is showcase how bad of a coach he is...which you are starting to hear murmurs about now if you listen to any basketball podcast.

Ultimately this team isn't really going to go anywhere until they get rid of the outdated fossil coach who doesn't seem to understand anything about modern basketball the same way the Patriots finally realized that they would never go anywhere with a coach who was running 3 tight end sets in an era of football where points are king and was literally hiring failed defensive coordinators to be his co offensive coordinator for his already physically limited quarterback, no matter how many rings he stood on the sideline and watched tom brady win.

I agree with the point about talent not being the only issue. scott can attest to me thinking it's more than just the supporting cast. Now, in terms of how bad Pop's schemes are, that's debatable. That guy who does defensive breakdowns hate drop coverage, for example, but it's actually pretty widely used. You can see that from the non-Spurs videos he posts. A lot of Wemby defensive highlights come from him in that coverage, and it's possible that scheme uses him the best because it allows him to protect the paint and play the ball-handler at the same time. The scheme struggles with a guy like Collins who is just straight-sucking right now. But I think it's helped Wemby's defensive numbers. In that regard, it might make sense to stick with that scheme and improve the other half of the defensive equation, which is how the on-ball defender plays their assignment. Back in the late Duncan era, the Spurs' smalls were great at helping Tim by playing the passing lanes, which prevented easy drop-offs to the roll-man. If they could improve that part and get smarter on help, I think drop coverage will still work.

The three-point defense has been awful forever, having been in the bottom half of the league in 3PT% allowed since 2018. That's bad enough to where you might have to change the coach to fix it. The Spurs pretty publicly called Keldon out for a bad rotation last game, so maybe there's legit movement on addressing that. With Wemby playing at center and more minutes, the team should change the way they defend the perimeter. I'm not surprised, though, that the Spurs haven't been good since they foolishly let their defensive core go away. Even if Pop stays, there's hope that they can acquire the players to address the problem.


Doesn't seem like The Holts got the balls for it like the Crafts did though.

I don't like Kraft, but the Holts could definitely be a problem to look out for going forward. I don't know that they're uber loyal to Pop or anything, but I do think they might not care too much about winning a title.

[scott]

The Spurs recent defensive performances definitely point to some coaching issues - I'd at least like to see a shakeup in our assistant coaching ranks. This team obviously isn't doing much to contribute to a high degree of progress (since we all generally acknowledge that outside of a few players, we aren't seeing the progress you'd hope for). What is Brett Brown contributing? Mitch Johnson seems like a great dude, but what is his contribution?

I've also noticed that the Spurs have one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league. Don't know what conclusions I draw from that, but it's an observation: https://nbacoaches.com/nba-assistant-coaches/

[MannyIsGod]

Pops contribution to Wemby improving in full display tonight. Not sure we have a single play to get this dude an easy look.

[poopbox]

The Spurs recent defensive performances definitely point to some coaching issues - I'd at least like to see a shakeup in our assistant coaching ranks. This team obviously isn't doing much to contribute to a high degree of progress (since we all generally acknowledge that outside of a few players, we aren't seeing the progress you'd hope for). What is Brett Brown contributing? Mitch Johnson seems like a great dude, but what is his contribution?

I've also noticed that the Spurs have one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league. Don't know what conclusions I draw from that, but it's an observation: https://nbacoaches.com/nba-assistant-coaches/

Who wants to be an assistant coach for a 72 year old man who every year his team gets worse and every year you don't know if he is going to be the coach or not :rollin

Only people trying to become assistant coaches or are bad assistant coaches would put themselves in that position :rollin

Or failed head coaches that players only have bad things to say about like Brent Brown :rollin

[NASpurs]

Another turd of a game.

:lol people justifying this fucking garbage of a team

[offset formation]

lol well according to the old man, we don’t know what we’re talking about if we criticize his coaching. His crappy record with a generational talent doesn’t already “say it all.”

Everyone here knows I haven't been shy to criticize Pop over the last 3 or so years, but it's probably not fair to criticize him on our crappy record as much as say getting WORSE defensively with guys already in your system when Wembanyama is not on the floor. To me thats where a perfectly reasonable and fair critique rests on assessing Pop and Wright to a lesser extent. Are our guys lacking the physical or mental ability to improve in at least their 2nd if not 4th or 5th year in the system, or is Pop simply not getting improvements from them for whatever reason anymore? That's where the juice is squeezed.

[itzsoweezee]

This team hasn’t even slightly improved since the start of the season

[Ditty]

Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

[itzsoweezee]

Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

It’s already been 5 years of losing records, and more to come. Just admit you hate basketball

[Ditty]

It’s already been 5 years of losing records, and more to come. Just admit you hate basketball

Last year was the first year they tanked. I was born in 89. I sure love losing :lol .

[scott]

Last year was the first year they tanked. I was born in 89. I sure love losing :lol .

I love this rationalization.

”The first 3 years of sucking didn’t count because we weren’t doing it on purpose!” This is a good thing?

[Chomag]

Wemby has improved this season but the whole team seems to be getting even worse and thats including the coaching or lack there of.

[Das Texan]

There are so many on this team that are regressing as this season goes on.

Its beyond frustrating. If 4/5 of this roster is gone next season I wouldnt shed a tear.

[Ditty]

I love this rationalization.

”The first 3 years of sucking didn’t count because we weren’t doing it on purpose!” This is a good thing?

Well they did make the play-in two of those years so I guess they were not entirely terrible.

[offset formation]

Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

There's no excuse for a defensive regression like we've seen for 3 yrs in a row. And for the record, we're not talking about a regression within the mean here, we're talking about back to back consecutive seasons of all time abomination.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

I have thought about this, and it makes no sense to not complain about sucking. It is weird not to actually after spending a couple hours watching confused/lackluster/physically outmatched and out-skilled play.

[NASpurs]

I have thought about this, and it makes no sense to not complain about sucking. It is weird not to actually after spending a couple hours watching confused/lackluster/physically outmatched and out-skilled play.

No one is forcing you to watch, you can turn off the TV ... and kill yourself - Mr Fat Body

[offset formation]

No one is forcing you to watch, you can turn off the TV ... and kill yourself - Mr Fat Body

:rollin

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop isn't perfect and I'd say was horrible to start the year. But there are worse coaches in the league.

the only coach worse than Pop is Doc Rivers


I love this rationalization.

”The first 3 years of sucking didn’t count because we weren’t doing it on purpose!” This is a good thing?

these are the same people who said starting Bryn Forbes was some type of "stealth tank" by Pop, so the Spurs could draft Lonnie Walker and Luka Samanic


Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/4mPiQEIiiGwAAAAC/chair-sniffing.gif

[Ditty]

There's no excuse for a defensive regression like we've seen for 3 yrs in a row. And for the record, we're not talking about a regression within the mean here, we're talking about back to back consecutive seasons of all time abomination.

I completely understand. Going into this year, no one thought this team would continue to be awful defensively with an elite interior defender. You would think with the defensive potential that Vassell and Sochan have that they would be cooking on the perimeter. I even thought Keldon might become an average defender. At the end of the day, I get the frustration and have every right too be, unless you are wanting to give up on a 20 year old.

[Ditty]

I have thought about this, and it makes no sense to not complain about sucking. It is weird not to actually after spending a couple hours watching confused/lackluster/physically outmatched and out-skilled play.

I guess, I am a bit more patient that there is vision compared to being in no mans land with Lonnie, Forbes, Mills, Derozan and Lyles for a a few years :lol. It's hard to watch, I get that. I don't even think it's going to even get any better next season even with Wemby continuing to be a monster if he stays healthy. Maybe if this draft wasn't so meh, people would feel better about everything imo.

[AusSpur]

I'll hang this one here. When your starting PG makes decisions like this it's pretty unbearable to watch:

https://twitter.com/brayknowball/status/1762675299114713189

[JPB]

Imagine if we didn't get Wemby :lol. This place would be worse than hell. This whole forum overreacts and acts like we have no mean to improve this team anytime soon. It's okay to suck for a few years.

Is it OK for Wemby tho?

[JPB]

There's no excuse for a defensive regression like we've seen for 3 yrs in a row. And for the record, we're not talking about a regression within the mean here, we're talking about back to back consecutive seasons of all time abomination.

Yeah, it's not just about being bad. It's about being Sixers level of ridiculous 2 years in a row and a coach who seems lost telling us we should get used to that for the next 2-3 years with a roster that is simply not really good.

[poopbox]

I guess, I am a bit more patient that there is vision compared to being in no mans land with Lonnie, Forbes, Mills, Derozan and Lyles for a a few years :lol. It's hard to watch, I get that. I don't even think it's going to even get any better next season even with Wemby continuing to be a monster if he stays healthy. Maybe if this draft wasn't so meh, people would feel better about everything imo.

Whats the functional difference between Lonnie Forbes Mills and Branhim, Wesly, Tre?

There is a vision. The vision is continue watching a 70 something year old man soil himself on the sidelines as he goes into year 7 of not knowing how to defend the 3 point line in the nba

[el contusione]

LOL@OP just noticing this! Did you miss the 18-game losing streak? The frequent large blowouts getting down 20, 30, even 40 points!?! I’ve mainly only been watching to see Wemby highlights while holding my nose for extended periods in between the sparse number of games actually worth watching.

I didn't miss the 18 game losing streak. At that time it was kind of understandable. Its a new team trying to learn and develop chemistry. The issue is that there hasn't been any growth. Except for Wemby, others have not improved. Missing shots are acceptable. You makes and misses are part of the game. It's the Bball IQ that hasn't developed. They are making the same damn mistakes as they were making early in the season. That's my issue. I can accept a player missing an open shot as long as the execution was good. It's execution that's terrible on both ends of the floor.

[Raven]

tre has been vomit inducing

[spurraider21]

I'll hang this one here. When your starting PG makes decisions like this it's pretty unbearable to watch:

https://twitter.com/brayknowball/status/1762675299114713189
you see, wemby wasn't actually open there, because...

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-be322bf5aa9bca961471e226283aa706-lq

[Ditty]

Is it OK for Wemby tho?

I think he is smart enough to realize he was not going to a very good team right away being selected #1 overall imo

[z0sa]

I think he is smart enough to realize he was not going to a very good team right away being selected #1 overall imo

Dude believed he could help the team break the record for biggest turn-around in a single season tbh

Wemby's certainly been let down by the Spurs team. What's far worse, though, is he probably feels at least partially responsible for the current Spurs plight (unless he's just putting on an act for the media). Most 20 year olds would have their confidence shaken, let's be honest. I certainly hope the Spurs do Wemby right, but I'm not holding my breath

[Ditty]

Whats the functional difference between Lonnie Forbes Mills and Branhim, Wesly, Tre?

There is a vision. The vision is continue watching a 70 something year old man soil himself on the sidelines as he goes into year 7 of not knowing how to defend the 3 point line in the nba

I was more referencing that these were our "better players" at that time getting a significant amount of playing time.

[itzsoweezee]

I'll hang this one here. When your starting PG makes decisions like this it's pretty unbearable to watch:

https://twitter.com/brayknowball/status/1762675299114713189

This was infuriating. There were multiple plays like this in the second half

[John B]

I know a lot of you guys are old so don’t act millennials :lol

[scott]

I was more referencing that these were our "better players" at that time getting a significant amount of playing time.

2019-20 Spurs MPG

Bryn - 25.1
Patty - 22.5
Lonnie - 16.2

Total - 63.8

2023-24 Spurs MPG

Tre - 26.2
Malaki - 20.3
Blake - 13.2

Total - 59.7

Not a huge difference in the minutes.

[JPB]

I think he is smart enough to realize he was not going to a very good team right away being selected #1 overall imo
I invite you to watch the media day ITVs to learn about Wemby's ( and the overall team's) goals and ambitions for this year...

Hint 1: Not being the laugh of the league.
Hint 2: Believeing they can make the POs.

IMO, Wemby was really not expecting this mess. And more importantly, and to the point, won't be OK with that for another year.

[Pauleta14]

I think he is smart enough to realize he was not going to a very good team right away being selected #1 overall imo

There’s a world between “not very good” and “historically bad”

[JPB]

And ffs, we're not talking about a team full of rookie teens who are discovering the NBA here:

Devin is 23
Keldon is 24
Tre is 24.
Zach is 26...
Jeremy is in his second year.

That team shouldn't suck like that, come on. Some people talk about patience like this roster was playing their first NBA games. Are they supposed to start winning games in their late 20's then win a ship in their 30's when Pop won't remember their names?

[tim_duncan_fan]

I guess, I am a bit more patient that there is vision compared to being in no mans land with Lonnie, Forbes, Mills, Derozan and Lyles for a a few years :lol. It's hard to watch, I get that. I don't even think it's going to even get any better next season even with Wemby continuing to be a monster if he stays healthy. Maybe if this draft wasn't so meh, people would feel better about everything imo.

Honestly, I was not excluding any of the context you have provided here. The team's situation isn't too complex to understand. It's gonna be like this until we stumble upon our Jwill and Timothy Chalomet and whoever other Top-of-the-draft players are on that OKC team that is finally decent again.

We can intellectually understand that and still be like, "yo, that shit was fucking garbage holy fuck"


No one is forcing you to watch, you can turn off the TV ... and kill yourself - Mr Fat Body

I get it. I was 9 years old once too, but at some point, you gotta be like, "am I not too old to act like an edgy 4chan poster?" lmaoooo

[sfernald]

There’s really nothing salvageable on this team other than Wemby. There are decent pieces such as Vassell but I don’t think he fits with Wemby.

There’s really just two groups of players: trade or cut

Tradable players are:

sochan (some people probably still might not know he sucks yet)
vassell (he’s worth two second round picks to a team looking for a Tim Haraway clone)
jones (someone might mistake him for his better brother and give up a second rounder for him)

The rest of the team is the trash pile and should be cut and burned safely.

We are all stuck watching this god-awful product because the spurs are just terrible terrible drafters. Let’s look at the 2022 draft.

At 9 they drafted Sochan when they could have had a star in Jalen Williams. On the bright side at least they didn’t draft Johnny Davis.

At 20 they drafted Branham when they could have Walter Kessler. But instead they had already signed Zollins. So mistake on top of mistake.

At 25 they drafted Wesley when they could have drafted Nicola Jokic. But at least they didn’t draft Wesley - oh never mind.

Pick 38 was their very best pick this year, the pick they traded away for cash, good ole cash!

Anyway, just wanted to say this team is going to suck until they change management and coaching. They need to sign some young and fresh GMs and coaches and start fresh. Until then they will be one of the worst teams in the league. Everything about this team feels old and dated to the core.

[Ditty]

I invite you to watch the media day ITVs to learn about Wemby's ( and the overall team's) goals and ambitions for this year...

Hint 1: Not being the laugh of the league.
Hint 2: Believeing they can make the POs.

IMO, Wemby was really not expecting this mess. And more importantly, and to the point, won't be OK with that for another year.

I respect your opinion that he was not expecting this mess.

I think that he was told once he got into the locker room that it's going to be a rough year or two tbh.

McCuckDonald asked him a question last night if it motivates him that OKC and Minnesota were awful teams at one point, and now they are on the top of the conference. Wemby understood that it can take years to get back on top and it's inspiring to him when that happens.

He has only dealt with one awful year compared to the last seven "awful" years we have gone through :lol

[Chinook]

you see, wemby wasn't actually open there, because...

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-be322bf5aa9bca961471e226283aa706-lq

I lhink Jones literally just didn't see him and had already decided where the ball was going by the time Wemby entered his field of vision

[Ditty]

There’s a world between “not very good” and “historically bad”

Losing is still losing at the end of the day. Maybe Bilal is telling him that Washington is even worse :lol.

[Ditty]

And ffs, we're not talking about a team full of rookie teens who are discovering the NBA here:

Devin is 23
Keldon is 24
Tre is 24.
Zach is 26...
Jeremy is in his second year.

That team shouldn't suck like that, come on. Some people talk about patience like this roster was playing their first NBA games. Are they supposed to start winning games in their late 20's then win a ship in their 30's when Pop won't remember their names?

Lebron was 27 years old and Jordan was 28 years old when they won their first championship. 2031 NBA Champions might be worth the wait :p :lobt2:

[Chinook]

I invite you to watch the media day ITVs to learn about Wemby's ( and the overall team's) goals and ambitions for this year...

Hint 1: Not being the laugh of the league.
Hint 2: Believeing they can make the POs.

IMO, Wemby was really not expecting this mess. And more importantly, and to the point, won't be OK with that for another year.

Wemby not understanding what was going to happen doesn't mean it's everyone else's fault that it did happen. A 19-year-old phenom who's been able to dominate at every level and who's being called the future GOAT isn't going to have modest expectations of his rookie season. I'm sure he didn't think most decent centers would body him in his rookie season. In fact, he suggested on multiple occasions that he'd play the four or three in the NBA. That's what happens when you're asking an inexperienced kid to predict the future. I'm sure most of us didn't know how college would go as teens and didn't know how working life would be when were were in college. Wemby having lofty expectations that haven't been met isn't weird or concerning. The question is: How does he evaluate the situation now? Does he understand his own need to grow or does he believe he's there and everyone else just needs to catch up? Hopefully he appreciates the difference in his situation versus, say, Chet's isn't just a matter of him having to endure losses. He has the opportunity to turn the ball over as much as he wants or take bad shots, and no one really care because the team sucks. He has an opportunity to learn what parts of his game translate, need work, or are best left on the cutting room floor with zero expectations on him from the organization. That can't last forever and shouldn't. But there's a lot of good that can come from a sandbox season if he embraces it.

MannyIsGod (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=76) was quite offended that I dared talk about the unrealistic expectations Wemby has to be great right away, but there are definitely folks who have placed those expectations on him. Victor himself is chief among them, but there are media members and fans who can't rationalize how a GOAT prospect can't lead his team to more wins and are trying to hold this against his legacy as if he's prime Kobe missing the playoffs. It doesn't matter whether they blame Victor, the roster, Pop or anyone else. The expectation itself was always unfair and it needs to be withdrawn. That's why Pop said what he said about Jordan and Jokic. Whether it was what fans wanted to hear is almost irrelevant, because it's what Wemby may need to understand in order to not let the expectations drown him.

[MultiTroll]

How old was CIA Popped when he coatailed Duncan and co. in the 2014 Championship?

NBA- Larry Brown, Detroit Pistons 2004 Championship, Age 63

[spurraider21]

I lhink Jones literally just didn't see him and had already decided where the ball was going by the time Wemby entered his field of vision

Someone has to fill this role.

[offset formation]

I know a lot of you guys are old so don’t act millennials :lol

Define old.

[offset formation]

I invite you to watch the media day ITVs to learn about Wemby's ( and the overall team's) goals and ambitions for this year...

Hint 1: Not being the laugh of the league.
Hint 2: Believeing they can make the POs.

IMO, Wemby was really not expecting this mess. And more importantly, and to the point, won't be OK with that for another year.

I agree with this 100000% that this season has likely been a large slap in the face to Wemby. No way he imagined being on the conference's worst team. No way.

I'd also venture to guess his patience starts running very short very early into next season with a similarly frustrating start. He ain't gonna put up with this shit forever.

[Pauleta14]

Losing is still losing at the end of the day. Maybe Bilal is telling him that Washington is even worse :lol.

- you don’t believe what u just wrote, losing at an all time high, being worse than last season with him added isn’t the same than a soft tank losing here and there.

- Bilal isn’t in his situation nor has his the same ambition. Bilal being 7th pick is already a ridiculous achievement that put his familly safe. He’s not in a rush

- the pb isn’t the losses or the process that was expected even by the worst critics, the issue is with what personnel it’s happening. Rarely if never (no ref tbh) an NBA team has had less talent and experience.
let’s not act like having an NBA team full of average youngster is a classic development model like some of you are doing in a surreal condescending way.

[scott]

Wemby’s expectations (from his own words) was to simply win more games than last year. I didn’t realize this bar was so unachievably high.

[MannyIsGod]

Wemby’s expectations (from his own words) was to simply win more games than last year. I didn’t realize this bar was so unachievably high.

Right? Are we questioning the dude being frustrated on one of the worst teams of all time? I'm not convinced that any team with Wemby on it - even 19 year old raw as fuck Wemby - should be this bad.

[Ditty]

- you don’t believe what u just wrote, losing at an all time high, being worse than last season with him added isn’t the same than a soft tank losing here and there.

- Bilal isn’t in his situation nor has his the same ambition. Bilal being 7th pick is already a ridiculous achievement that put his familly safe. He’s not in a rush

- the pb isn’t the losses or the process that was expected even by the worst critics, the issue is with what personnel it’s happening. Rarely if never (no ref tbh) an NBA team has had less talent and experience.
let’s not act like having an NBA team full of average youngster is a classic development model like some of you are doing in a surreal condescending way.

They were 15-47 this time a year ago just coming off a 17 game losing streak. It would make sense to be better adding a "generational talent", I get that. Outside of Vassell, the rest of the team has been underwhelming after Sochan, Branham and Keldon looked like possible rotational pieces and the only other significant piece was adding Cedi this offseason. We knew since TC that they wanted to evaluate their guys coming off a bad season.

Just because Wemby mentioned that he would like to win a championship soon when the Spurs won the lottery means that he is in a rush? He gets it that the league is tough. SE mentions on the broadcast multiple times how these young players don't realize how tough and fast the NBA actually is coming into the league.

What did you realistically want them to do this past offseason for them to be in a better situation? They are not trading 20 year old players anytime soon. If they want to get rid of Keldon and Zach this offseason, then that's fine as we are seeing close to their ceilings. They were at least two off-season's away from being playoff contenders once they got Wemby, and if you think otherwise you were lying to yourself.

[offset formation]

They were 15-47 this time a year ago just coming off a 17 game losing streak. It would make sense to be better adding a "generational talent", I get that. Outside of Vassell, the rest of the team has been underwhelming after Sochan, Branham and Keldon looked like possible rotational pieces and the only other significant piece was adding Cedi this offseason. We knew since TC that they wanted to evaluate their guys coming off a bad season.

Just because Wemby mentioned that he would like to win a championship soon when the Spurs won the lottery means that he is in a rush? He gets it that the league is tough. SE mentions on the broadcast multiple times how these young players don't realize how tough and fast the NBA actually is coming into the league.

What did you realistically want them to do this past offseason for them to be in a better situation? They are not trading 20 year old players anytime soon. If they want to get rid of Keldon and Zach this offseason, then that's fine as we are seeing close to their ceilings. They were at least two off-season's away from being playoff contenders once they got Wemby, and if you think otherwise you were lying to yourself.

I think a bunch of people, myself included, thought they could be on that 10 or 11 spot fighting for the play in...and quite frankly I don't think that's an unreasonable prediction given the generational talent we had coming in. What's clearly missing in all our assessments is the utter failure of those teammates around him and their clear inability to man people up so that they aren't run off the floor night in and out.

[Pauleta14]

They were 15-47 this time a year ago just coming off a 17 game losing streak. It would make sense to be better adding a "generational talent", I get that. Outside of Vassell, the rest of the team has been underwhelming after Sochan, Branham and Keldon looked like possible rotational pieces and the only other significant piece was adding Cedi this offseason. We knew since TC that they wanted to evaluate their guys coming off a bad season.

Just because Wemby mentioned that he would like to win a championship soon when the Spurs won the lottery means that he is in a rush? He gets it that the league is tough. SE mentions on the broadcast multiple times how these young players don't realize how tough and fast the NBA actually is coming into the league.

What did you realistically want them to do this past offseason for them to be in a better situation? They are not trading 20 year old players anytime soon. If they want to get rid of Keldon and Zach this offseason, then that's fine as we are seeing close to their ceilings. They were at least two off-season's away from being playoff contenders once they got Wemby, and if you think otherwise you were lying to yourself.

I agree with ur “2 off-season” timeline and again my point was that they went a bit radical in their strategy. I for ex don’t understand the absence of veterans more than anything else. It leads me to think PATFO thought it wasn’t an necessity and/or that the staff could compensate it.
There’s a sort of lack of humility in their strategy, it’s never been done ever that way and their narrative is basically “we’re doing the logical/smart thing…” when there’s no reference of development without veterans for ex.

as for what should they have done last summer, I don’t have names in mind and it’s not my job but it wasn’t about going for Lillard at all but more a profile like Brogdon for ex
I get the (reasonable) handicap on Wemby to force him work on his fundamentals instead of just going for lobs, but we’re in a situation where the roster is so bad that he can’t even get simple passes as we again saw yesterday.

How is spending his time screening making him a better player?

There’s levels and PATFO went too extreme

[callo1]

Not going to lie, it has been outright painful to watch the spurs of late. I can handle the losses, but the lack of competitiveness is pitiful. Simply taking care of the ball would give them a chance to compete, but when you turn the ball over nine times in a quarter, you don't even give yourself a chance. being behind by 20 midway through the second quarter is just horrid.

I am trying to make sense of how a year ago they were a "better" team without Wemby and it is puzzling to me except maybe that teams get up for them due to Wemby, whereas last year teams just didn't care. Mix in some of the terrible rotations and Colins struggling most of the year and it starts to make sense.

I'm going to keep watching and hoping for another Toronto style game.

[ambchang]

There’s really nothing salvageable on this team other than Wemby. There are decent pieces such as Vassell but I don’t think he fits with Wemby.

There’s really just two groups of players: trade or cut

Tradable players are:

sochan (some people probably still might not know he sucks yet)
vassell (he’s worth two second round picks to a team looking for a Tim Haraway clone)
jones (someone might mistake him for his better brother and give up a second rounder for him)

The rest of the team is the trash pile and should be cut and burned safely.

We are all stuck watching this god-awful product because the spurs are just terrible terrible drafters. Let’s look at the 2022 draft.

At 9 they drafted Sochan when they could have had a star in Jalen Williams. On the bright side at least they didn’t draft Johnny Davis.

At 20 they drafted Branham when they could have Walter Kessler. But instead they had already signed Zollins. So mistake on top of mistake.

At 25 they drafted Wesley when they could have drafted Nicola Jokic. But at least they didn’t draft Wesley - oh never mind.

Pick 38 was their very best pick this year, the pick they traded away for cash, good ole cash!

Anyway, just wanted to say this team is going to suck until they change management and coaching. They need to sign some young and fresh GMs and coaches and start fresh. Until then they will be one of the worst teams in the league. Everything about this team feels old and dated to the core.

So wait because the spurs didn’t draft the absolutely best player in their draft position, they are god awful? I’d say all 30 teams in the league have God awful GMs because they didn’t hit a 100.

[sfernald]

So wait because the spurs didn’t draft the absolutely best player in their draft position, they are god awful? I’d say all 30 teams in the league have God awful GMs because they didn’t hit a 100.

Yep.

[rankingtear]

There’s really nothing salvageable on this team other than Wemby. There are decent pieces such as Vassell but I don’t think he fits with Wemby.

There’s really just two groups of players: trade or cut

Tradable players are:

sochan (some people probably still might not know he sucks yet)
vassell (he’s worth two second round picks to a team looking for a Tim Haraway clone)
jones (someone might mistake him for his better brother and give up a second rounder for him)

The rest of the team is the trash pile and should be cut and burned safely.

We are all stuck watching this god-awful product because the spurs are just terrible terrible drafters. Let’s look at the 2022 draft.

At 9 they drafted Sochan when they could have had a star in Jalen Williams. On the bright side at least they didn’t draft Johnny Davis.

At 20 they drafted Branham when they could have Walter Kessler. But instead they had already signed Zollins. So mistake on top of mistake.

At 25 they drafted Wesley when they could have drafted Nicola Jokic. But at least they didn’t draft Wesley - oh never mind.

Pick 38 was their very best pick this year, the pick they traded away for cash, good ole cash!

Anyway, just wanted to say this team is going to suck until they change management and coaching. They need to sign some young and fresh GMs and coaches and start fresh. Until then they will be one of the worst teams in the league. Everything about this team feels old and dated to the core.

Those young fresh GM is also a terrible drafter compared to guys on forum with hindsight.

[rankingtear]

I agree with ur “2 off-season” timeline and again my point was that they went a bit radical in their strategy. I for ex don’t understand the absence of veterans more than anything else. It leads me to think PATFO thought it wasn’t an necessity and/or that the staff could compensate it.
There’s a sort of lack of humility in their strategy, it’s never been done ever that way and their narrative is basically “we’re doing the logical/smart thing…” when there’s no reference of development without veterans for ex.

as for what should they have done last summer, I don’t have names in mind and it’s not my job but it wasn’t about going for Lillard at all but more a profile like Brogdon for ex
I get the (reasonable) handicap on Wemby to force him work on his fundamentals instead of just going for lobs, but we’re in a situation where the roster is so bad that he can’t even get simple passes as we again saw yesterday.

How is spending his time screening making him a better player?

There’s levels and PATFO went too extreme

I believe they went after Brook, but he was just using HOU/SAS to get that offer from MIL. He was perfect cause he can shoot 3 with volume. They are allergic to guard creators, either cause they don't want anybody dictating how Wemby plays or they just want as much creation reps out there up for grabs. Maybe it pays off, maybe not. Wings and Big are the ideal creators now.

[John B]

Not going to lie, it has been outright painful to watch the spurs of late. I can handle the losses, but the lack of competitiveness is pitiful. Simply taking care of the ball would give them a chance to compete, but when you turn the ball over nine times in a quarter, you don't even give yourself a chance. being behind by 20 midway through the second quarter is just horrid.

I am trying to make sense of how a year ago they were a "better" team without Wemby and it is puzzling to me except maybe that teams get up for them due to Wemby, whereas last year teams just didn't care. Mix in some of the terrible rotations and Colins struggling most of the year and it starts to make sense.

I'm going to keep watching and hoping for another Toronto style game.

I hate the turnovers also. This team is one of the leaders in team assists. They move the ball around, but inexperience mainly. It takes time for the youngest team of the NBA to learn the plays and the personnel, but it should get there through practice. And you’re right, teams get up for Wemby trying to dispell the hype, compare to last year with everyone unknown.

[Pauleta14]

What do u guys think of Brogdon as a Vet + PG cheaper more complete solution than Trae even if less impactfull on offense?

Do you think Portland would be open to a trade?

He really fits the profile and timming imo

[sfernald]

Those young fresh GM is also a terrible drafter compared to guys on forum with hindsight.

well I was one who said Wemby would be beyond elite his first year and that we should try to surround him with vets this year to try to make a playoff run and not waste one of his precious years but management (and most of this forum) thought they should develop these trash draft picks and see what we have.

well we did that and now we know we have nothing but trash. Should we bring em back next year and try again? Maybe we’ll get different results by doing the same thing next year. These guys can’t possibly be as bad next year right? Maybe Wesley will be able to finish and sochan will make three pointers? Let’s just run it back with Wemby. He won’t mind if lose 60+ games again. What’s the rush. Let’s just develop the shit outta this team. No reason to trade or get vets. That would be forcing things and god forbid we do that!

[Chomag]

If we didn't have Wemby then by all means we keep hitting the draft , but we got lucky and got a generational all pro player. Continuing to doing nothing to improve the team and hoping that we still have luck to strike gold again and improve through draft is silly and stupid.

We have a bunch of picks that can be used as leverage for trades , hoarding them will not gain much in return unless we somehow get lucky again but what is the chances of that?

Do yall really have faith in our current GM for drafting the right talent? The track record the past few years seems to be pointing towards not so great results.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If we didn't have Wemby then by all means we keep hitting the draft , but we got lucky and got a generational all pro player. Continuing to doing nothing to improve the team and hoping that we still have luck to strike gold again and improve through draft is silly and stupid.

We have a bunch of picks that can be used as leverage for trades , hoarding them will not gain much in return unless we somehow get lucky again but what is the chances of that?

Do yall really have faith in our current GM for drafting the right talent? The track record the past few years seems to be pointing towards not so great results.

What pick we developed has underperformed their draft slot?

[SpursBills]

It actually seems like the starters do well most games, and then the bench comes in and it all goes to shit. At least that's my perception when I watch the games. I don't have the numbers with me off hand, but I have to wonder how much of a difference it'd make just to replace Collins, Branham, Wesley, and Champagnie with solid bench guys or replacement level vets. I suspect that'd take us from an 11 win team to a 25 win team almost instantly, which suggests that the long term core of this team may not be as bad as what it looks like and that our issues this year are fixable.