Avery Johnson and Bruce Bowen

[Mugen]

I know this has been discussed before and I'm sure the old heads on the board are gonna bite my head off.

But why are these guys' jerseys retired? Is the jersey retirement bar really set at role players that PATFO liked? :lol

[baseline bum]

I know this has been discussed before and I'm sure the old heads on the board are gonna bite my head off.

But why are these guys' jerseys retired? Is the jersey retirement bar really set at role players that PATFO liked? :lol

Bowen was the best perimeter defender in the league and no way they'd have won the 2003 nor 2007 title without him. Maybe the 2005 title would have been doable without him thanks to Joe Johnson getting hurt but I don't see getting through LA in 03 or Phoenix in 07 without him.

[The Truth #6]

Johnny Moore may be the worst of all. Avery was the symbol of the hard work it took to get the first title, and he's an underdog, which sort of captures the essence of the city. Bowen was at least part of a lot of titles.

But yeah, they are weak.

[Mr. Body]

They were incredibly important to this franchise at key times in our history. Why is that controversial?

[spurraider21]

Bowen was the best perimeter defender in the league and no way they'd have won the 2003 nor 2007 title without him. Maybe the 2005 title would have been doable without him thanks to Joe Johnson getting hurt but I don't see getting through LA in 03 or Phoenix in 07 without him.
who did bowen slow in the 07 suns series? iirc he was always pretty bad at containing Nash, nor could duncan really slow amare in the pick and roll game

[SouthernFryd]

Yes, the Bar is set low. Part of PATFO's Weak and Woke movement.

The fact Johnny Moore is there with Tim Duncan...is a joke. Silas? Sure. Bowen and Avery? Nope. Might as well put Patty Mills up there.

And this ain't a knock on them. They are all good players. Most NBA players are good, except for Champagnie. Simply not Tim Duncan and Gervin levels.

[John B]

Dude, other teams retired Vlade Divac and Hornacec without even sniffing rings... come on, don't complain about the General and Bruuucee "busy hands" Bowen.

[spurraider21]

Dude, other teams retired Vlade Divac and Hornacec without even sniffing rings... come on, don't complain about the General and Bruuucee "busy hands" Bowen.
nobody ever called him this

[Splits]

Ummm, go check out the Trailgangster's rafters and get back to me.

[Spurminator]

Yes, the Bar is set low. Part of PATFO's Weak and Woke movement.

This is among the most pathetic instances I've seen of using "woke" to just describe "something I don't like."

Anyway, I'm not sure how anyone who was paying attention to Spurs basketball from 2003-2007 could quibble with Bruce Bowen having his jersey retired. He was the starting small forward and elite defender on a team who won three Championships while considered a defense-first team. He was an embodiment of the thanklessly great defense that doesn't show up in box scores, but he did get elected First Team All-Defense five times (including four times in a row), which is the same number as Ben Wallace, Michael Cooper, and Hakeem Olajuwan.

Some teams require that a player be elected to the HOF to qualify for jersey retirement but I actually think the jersey retirement is a perfect opportunity to honor non-HOF players who contributed significantly to a Championship team or teams. Bowen may not be a Hall-of-Famer but he's certainly someone who deserves a permanent legacy in Spurs lore. I suppose AJ is debatable (I'm sure his jersey retirement was debated on this forum, in fact) but a franchise's first Championship always holds a little more weight when it comes to these sorts of things, so I don't mind.

[John B]

nobody ever called him this

It's hard to search up Bruce and not get the kick in Wally Szczerbiak's face.

But yeah, I'm sure I've heard commentators talked about Bruce's defense and those hands on peoples faces. Nobody does that any more.

[z0sa]

AJ isn't very memorable outside of the Spurs fandom. For me, it's clear he got his jersey thanks to a certain shot along the baseline in '99. This was a legendary event in San Antonio history, like, the actual city was forever changed (from a cultural standpoint). If you are native of SA and were alive at the time, there's no way you didn't know about it, no matter if you were a fan of the Spurs or not. The only bigger shot in that entire run was the MDM.

Bruce Bowen though was a major contributor for three titles. He was stiffed a DPOY or few as well. I admit he sucks balls on paper which is why it might be confusing for someone who didn't watch the Spurs back then.

[slick'81]

AJ isn't very memorable outside of the Spurs fandom. For me, it's clear he got his jersey thanks to a certain shot along the baseline in '99. This was a legendary event in San Antonio history, like, the actual city was forever changed (from a cultural standpoint). If you are native of SA and were alive at the time, there's no way you didn't know about it, no matter if you were a fan of the Spurs or not. The only bigger shot in that entire run was the MDM.

Bruce Bowen though was a major contributor for three titles. He was stiffed a DPOY or few as well. I admit he sucks balls on paper which is why it might be confusing for someone who didn't watch the Spurs back then.

it was really just pop making up for firing aj during robinsons wedding day

[Splits]

#RetirePatty8

[buttsR4rebounding]

I have never understood why Larry Kenon isn't up there. Averaged 21 points, 10 rebounds 3.5 assists and almost 2 steals a game during his time with the Spurs.

[chicken eye]

Bruce karate-kicked Wally Szczerbiak's face. I think that counts for something.

[TD 21]

Players like this are why every team in sports should have a "Ring of Honor", so that they can get their due, but a line of demarcation can still exist between them and the obvious jersey retirement players.

[Mugen]

I'm not trying to downplay their importance to championship winning teams. They were great role players. But at the end of the day they were role players...and you don't retire role player numbers.

The Spurs are arguably the 3rd best franchise in NBA history and should have a higher bar than poverty franchise like the Hornets and Blazers tbh.


Players like this are why every team in sports should have a "Ring of Honor", so that they can get their due, but a line of demarcation can still exist between them and the obvious jersey retirement players.

Agreed ^

[Seventyniner]

Bowen is fine.
Moore was before my time.
AJ's #6 shouldn't have been retired imo.

But if the Spurs retire #2 I swear to god...
We would get a retirement ceremony where the honored player got booed the entire time.

[Splits]

But if the Spurs retire #2 I swear to god...
We would get a retirement ceremony where the honored player got booed the entire time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4dKELmyX6s

[RC_Drunkford]

I can understand Bowen being in the rafters, but Avery Johnson? He basically got his jersey retired because he hit one corner 3 (although a very important one)

Bowen was a DPOY level player who helped us win 3 titles in 5 years. I think that's easily justified.

[Das Texan]

I'm not trying to downplay their importance to championship winning teams. They were great role players. But at the end of the day they were role players...and you don't retire role player numbers.

The Spurs are arguably the 3rd best franchise in NBA history and should have a higher bar than poverty franchise like the Hornets and Blazers tbh.



Agreed ^

I mean when Johnny Moore's number was retired, Spurs really were technically said poverty franchise.

Spurs had what? 1 ring when Johnson's number was retired?

Bowen's contributions led to at least 2 titles that we probably dont win without him.

No problem with any others. If anything, we have lost sight of the great contributions of many Spurs from the Pre Admiral days.

[TekXX]

Once you retire those 80's players you set the bar. You can't really deny players that won championships after that.

[spurraider21]

I can understand Bowen being in the rafters, but Avery Johnson? He basically got his jersey retired because he hit one corner 3 (although a very important one)

Bowen was a DPOY level player who helped us win 3 titles in 5 years. I think that's easily justified.
was not a 3. was a midrange jumper :lol

[timtonymanu]

I’ll die on the Bruce Bowen hill. He earned his jersey retirement. Hell you had spurs fans that think Patty and LaMarcus should be in the rafters too. :lol

[Mugen]

I’ll die on the Bruce Bowen hill. He earned his jersey retirement. Hell you had spurs fans that think Patty and LaMarcus should be in the rafters too. :lol

Retiring LMA's 12 next to Bruce's 12 would be hilarious tbh.

[DAF86]

Manu couldn't use his number on the Spurs because of Avery. :lol

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx1MKKWawMWavQaJojOTWHRKBCCk3sB-pWX51FZ-i6QQ&s

After the "on second thought, we are retiring #6" fiasco, Manu should have gone with #10. It is the most fitting number for a lefty Argentinian GOAT, tbh.

I don't even know why the fuck he picked 20.

[MarCowMar]

I have zero issue with Johnson and Bowen being up there, especially Bowen. Their careers were defined in San Antonio and they played roles on championship teams.

The bigger question for me is whether to put Leonard up. He left about as quick as he could and never really felt like he settled into the city. But he was clearly one of the best talents to wear the uniform and delivered a championship, so what do you do? Would he even care? Do we?

It's awkward how weak his connection to the team feels. Maybe Pop feels compelled to fix that and it's why he had the senior moment w/the mic.

[DAF86]

I have zero issue with Johnson and Bowen being up there, especially Bowen. Their careers were defined in San Antonio and they played roles on championship teams.

The bigger question for me is whether to put Leonard up. He left about as quick as he could and never really felt like he settled into the city. But he was clearly one of the best talents to wear the uniform and delivered a championship, so what do you do? Would he even care? Do we?

It's awkward how weak his connection to the team feels. Maybe Pop feels compelled to fix that and it's why he had the senior moment w/the mic.

Bro, how's this even a question? :lol Fuck Nephew.

[get_mills_out]

Poverty franchises do poverty franchise things. We are no longer a poverty franchise so it seems weird.

but you still see it today with ORL retiring shaqs jersey who played like 150 games in a magic uniform

[ambchang]

Poverty franchises do poverty franchise things. We are no longer a poverty franchise so it seems weird.

but you still see it today with ORL retiring shaqs jersey who played like 150 games in a magic uniform

He played 295 games there, led the team to their first playoff and finals berth. Shaq should have his number retired there a long time ago. The only thing is that franchise refused to admit how badly they messed up signing shaq and make it seem like shaq acted in bad faith.

[John B]

I have zero issue with Johnson and Bowen being up there, especially Bowen. Their careers were defined in San Antonio and they played roles on championship teams.

The bigger question for me is whether to put Leonard up. He left about as quick as he could and never really felt like he settled into the city. But he was clearly one of the best talents to wear the uniform and delivered a championship, so what do you do? Would he even care? Do we?

It's awkward how weak his connection to the team feels. Maybe Pop feels compelled to fix that and it's why he had the senior moment w/the mic.

Fuck nephew. And this would be a not so popular opinion, but his Finals MVP was overrated. Sure he slowed-down Lebron, but it was the Beautiful Game that won games, not nephew. TP led the scoring (with 4 others averaging double-digit including nephew), Timmy led the rebound, Green the steal and yes nephew the block. But it was a team effort and not a dominant one player like non-Spurs fan would think. He was a budding superstar sure, but not until 2 years later when he reached that superstar status. By then we’ve got eliminated by the Clippers and OKC no help to him. It would’ve been nice if he didn't get Pachiula’d because he was becoming the TOR version dominant, but then he left and sabotaged the Spurs’ future and caught everyone by surprise and got us on a downward spiral. That alone erases every goid thing he did. So fuck nephew. And Spurs should never retire his jersey number.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean besides Gervin, who was a good guard on our team? Alvin Robertson? And he was a POS. So that's why our retired guards (Moore and AJ) are trash in comparison to other teams. Sadly, Moore (and then AJ) held a lot of SA records for point guards :lol

Now we have Manu and Tony so it looks silly, but at the time...

I have zero issue with Bowen though. And Kawhi will have his number retired here. He was a multi-time all star, DPOY, All NBA, champion, and FMVP. There's no way we aren't going to retire his number. The funny thing is the Clippers will do the same and he hasn't done shit for them