Be Patient, But For Who?

[TD 21]

The draft is a crapshoot and Wembanyama should organically virtually single handedly take them out of high lottery pick status as soon as next season.

Some think Antetokounmpo and Doncic could demand trades within' a few years, but when players of this magnitude demand a trade, teams work to get them to preferred destinations.

Both massive egos, who care deeply about their "legacies", the notion that the former would want to team up with a fellow big with guard like skills and the potential to be greater historically, is absurd.

He'll almost certainly want essentially a younger version of the Bucks, that's not as tapped out on assets. That way he can be seen as the "bus driver".

The latter has a team that's now at the point to probably keep him happy enough for the foreseeable future, but it always has to be his show, which wouldn't be the case here. Even if he were open to it, the notion that the Mavericks would ever trade a player of this magnitude to the Spurs is absurd.

So who's left? Booker is a name to keep an eye on. The Suns are not good enough now and tapped out on assets. He might demand a trade within' a couple of years, but he'll be 30ish then and is overrated.

Is the possibility of that really worth not pursuing something significant now?

[MultiTroll]

So who's left? Booker is a name to keep an eye on. The Suns are not good enough now and tapped out on assets. He might demand a trade within' a couple of years, but he'll be 30ish then and is overrated.
While he did not suffer NBA career and complete spiritual death by Kardashian, he nonetheless was damaged and continues to be so.

Playing with massive phaggots / divas like CPO and Durbetta has not given him anything beneficial.

Do not want. Period.

[Tyronn Lue]

Victor won't single handedly to anything of the sort. It's a myth/lie that a star carries a shitty team. They just don't. They shine above them, but even if you put a prime Lebron on this team without Victor, they might not make the playoffs.

I think Victor cares about his legacy as well. He openly comments about wanting all the individual accolades. I've not noticed Greek Freak being egotistical, not really. He's in Milwaukee, he could be anywhere he wanted to be. Don't know about Luka, but both command top dollar.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by "significant". Making the playoffs with a guy while being talent stressed is just missing the lottery. I'd rather miss the playoffs with a younger team who's showing big improvement vs getting a middling star looking for a paycheck.

[DAF86]

Mitchell, Garland, Durant, Curry, Cooper Flagg. You never know.

[TD 21]

Do not want. Period.

You missed the point, which was/is that the current possibility of him alone is not enticing enough to wait.


Victor won't single handedly to anything of the sort.

I think Victor cares about his legacy as well. I've not noticed Greek Freak being egotistical, not really. He's in Milwaukee, he could be anywhere he wanted to be. Don't know about Luka

So I guess it depends on what you mean by "significant".

Also missed the point. Wembanyama's (I never said he didn't care about "legacy", but he's the incumbent) progression and modest upgrades should be enough to get them to mid lottery range next season, which obviously lessens the odds of a high lottery pick and a star.

Antetokounmpo cares deeply about perception, which is why he was desperate to distance himself from the Holiday-Lillard trade, the 60 point ball fiasco (claiming he wanted it because Lillard passed Korver for 5th all-time in 3's), etc.

Doncic is as petulant and selfish as they come, unwilling to scale back his heliocentricity even with a co-star like Irving.

Significant = a trade for a star (Young, Mitchell, etc.) or top starter (Murray, Garland, etc.).


Mitchell, Garland, Durant, Curry, Cooper Flagg. You never know.

The point of the thread was for those opposed to the oft discussed Hawks and Cavaliers guards.

Durant is post prime now and likely to be reticent to demand a trade again (he didn't want to leave the Nets until it all fell apart).

Curry is post prime now and almost certainly never demanding a trade.

Relying on luck/the league gifting the Spurs another massive prospect is absurd.

[Dejounte]

Mitchell, Garland, Durant, Curry, Cooper Flagg. You never know.

What a shitty list tbh. Some draft experts are even starting to slow down on Cooper Flagg and taking back the idea that he’s generational

[exstatic]

What a shitty list tbh. Some draft experts are even starting to slow down on Cooper Flagg and taking back the idea that he’s generational

I don’t think he’s ever been anything but a clear cut #1.

[spurraider21]

What a shitty list tbh. Some draft experts are even starting to slow down on Cooper Flagg and taking back the idea that he’s generational
which ones

[DAF86]

What a shitty list tbh. Some draft experts are even starting to slow down on Cooper Flagg and taking back the idea that he’s generational

Wait, weren't you on the Trae Young and Dejounte Murray bandwagon? How is any of those players a worse option that the two Hawks' players? :lol

[Alain]

Wembanyama's (I never said he didn't care about "legacy", but he's the incumbent) progression and modest upgrades should be enough to get them to mid lottery range next season, which obviously lessens the odds of a high lottery pick and a star.

Mid lottery range ?
Whatever the upgrade, the Spurs will be a playoff team next year without a doubt.
Keep in mind that the league best interest is to install Victor as the new megastar, the sooner the better.

[jesterbobman]

For a team of players that's good enough to be consistently and be a long term title contender.

It's more about the when (Probably in the 2025 Offseason, when Wemby has had another year of seasoning and developing micro skills like screen angles, slips etc and gets to be something like a +6 / 7 EPM guy in year 2 and is looking like a all-NBA first team guy, rather than fringe 3rd team) than the who.

Improving the forwards (Flagg, Boozer's, etc incoming, throw the bag at Lauri (would guess OKC will offer the Jazz a package and this is moot, but if he reaches FA), a primary playmaker (Mitchell, Garland, Trae etc), and improving the bench (Tre Jones moves to a more sensible role, a pick and roll partner who's a competent drop big (or a Collins at the level and a true PF who can offer secondary rim protection) and shooting wings). Best value is probably a bit of waiting for the picks to be locked in place.

Realistically, a title team is going to be something like a +12 starting group over a long period of time and a neutral bench / non top 5 lineup. Means upgrades in both groups.

[CGD]

Lol, this thread is pretty much making the case for why they should just build through the draft over the next 2-3 years. It seems like the free agent/diva star market is actually not as robust as we think, and the young players worth a damn (SGA, Ant, Hali, Fox, Book(?), Tatum) aren’t really available any time soon.

[RC_Drunkford]

https://nbaanalysis.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Spurs-Land-Hawks_-Trae-Young-In-Bold-Trade-Scenario.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs:412x247/rscb2/ngcb2/notWebP

[TD 21]

Mid lottery range ?
Whatever the upgrade, the Spurs will be a playoff team next year without a doubt.
Keep in mind that the league best interest is to install Victor as the new megastar, the sooner the better.

Unless they make a significant trade, they don't even have a path to being a playoff team next season.

Every West team not named Jazz or Trail Blazers projects to be of that caliber.



Lol, this thread is pretty much making the case for why they should just build through the draft over the next 2-3 years.

Too much of a crapshoot (exacerbated when you're as rigid and clearly largely ignore analytics as much as this organization does) and Wembanyama is/will be too good and probably impatient to wait for their usual stereotypical picks to develop.

[Alain]

Unless they make a significant trade, they don't even have a path to being a playoff team next season.

Well, last year in the french league it was a 18yo Victor, Bilal, and a bunch of lowest tenth scrubs. They even fired their second best player (and PG) but still made the final and lost against the third best team in Europe. Not a single commentator was even dreaming of such performance by the Mets92 at the start of the season.
Of course, I am not comparing AT ALL the French league and the NBA, but I've learned that when Victor is ready to compete (and he will be next year after a whole year of preseason games) you have to first raise the expectations, watch in awe, and then raise them again.

[MultiTroll]

So who's left? Booker is a name to keep an eye on.


You missed the point, which was/is that the current possibility of him alone is not enticing enough to wait.
LoL you bring up Booker as a possibility and then say "missed the point."

[TD 21]

Well, last year in the french league it was a 18yo Victor, Bilal, and a bunch of lowest tenth scrubs. They even fired their second best player (and PG) but still made the final and lost against the third best team in Europe. Not a single commentator was even dreaming of such performance by the Mets92 at the start of the season.
Of course, I am not comparing AT ALL the French league and the NBA, but I've learned that when Victor is ready to compete (and he will be next year after a whole year of preseason games) you have to first raise the expectations, watch in awe, and then raise them again.

Still, it's asking too much of him (if it's just modest upgrades).



LoL you bring up Booker as a possibility and then say "missed the point."

Yeah, as an example of what's probably the best case "be patient" scenario and how it's not incentive enough to be conservative in the interim.

[Mugen]

Get me that fat honky from Dallas in a few years tbh.

[scott]

Great topic.

The problem with patience, is it is too easy to convince yourself that waiting is best to the point where you enter a state of paralysis. I think it is far less likely at this point, but the Spurs could have easily gone down this road (and many posters thought it was the way to go earlier this season) and it end up looking like this:

2025 discussion: we need to give [Topic/Williams or whatever pair you want] time to develop! And with Flagg and Bailey, we should just tank anyway!
2026 discussion: we need to give Topic and Williams and whatever other 19 year olds we drafted time to develop! And with Boozer and AJ, we should just tank anyway!
2027 discussion: we need to give these guys time to develop! We just moved off of Sochan and Branham, so now they have room to really blossom!
2028 discussion: more of the same

You can do the same with FA or trade targets. Why deplete the war chest on Trae Young? There will be better players down the road! Fox is asking out... but rumors are that Luka will next season, we should wait!

At some point you should pull the trigger. If the Spurs FO likes Young, they should do a deal to get him so long as the price is reasonable. If not, they shouldn't. Same thing with any other player. The time to build around Wemby is here. No need to fart around and play games that bite you in the if they never materialize.

[TekXX]

Well it will be interesting to see what Flagg does in colllege?

[mo7888]

I think the right strategy is just to be open to opportunities and not try to force them or skip them because of some pre-determined path of patience.

Make moves/trades with lesser picks and players for good culture guys who raise our floor and let us start building something. If a real difference maker comes on the market we can be players and even use these newly acquired vets if necessary. Don't force things and don't sit on our hands , be active in talks and look for opportunities..

[CGD]

Great topic.

The problem with patience, is it is too easy to convince yourself that waiting is best to the point where you enter a state of paralysis. I think it is far less likely at this point, but the Spurs could have easily gone down this road (and many posters thought it was the way to go earlier this season) and it end up looking like this:

2025 discussion: we need to give [Topic/Williams or whatever pair you want] time to develop! And with Flagg and Bailey, we should just tank anyway!
2026 discussion: we need to give Topic and Williams and whatever other 19 year olds we drafted time to develop! And with Boozer and AJ, we should just tank anyway!
2027 discussion: we need to give these guys time to develop! We just moved off of Sochan and Branham, so now they have room to really blossom!
2028 discussion: more of the same

You can do the same with FA or trade targets. Why deplete the war chest on Trae Young? There will be better players down the road! Fox is asking out... but rumors are that Luka will next season, we should wait!

At some point you should pull the trigger. If the Spurs FO likes Young, they should do a deal to get him so long as the price is reasonable. If not, they shouldn't. Same thing with any other player. The time to build around Wemby is here. No need to fart around and play games that bite you in the if they never materialize.

This is a reasonable cycle (cycling through dudes) if you haven’t found your head honcho. We have that him tho.

So I think the spurs are on a 3 year plan, with the goal of finding (draft or trade) the 2nd banana to Wemby and Vassell’s 1 and 3. Then is about using pick, space, trade to round out the roster.

[CGD]

I think the right strategy is just to be open to opportunities and not try to force them or skip them because of some pre-determined path of patience.

Make moves/trades with lesser picks and players for good culture guys who raise our floor and let us start building something. If a real difference maker comes on the market we can be players and even use these newly acquired vets if necessary. Don't force things and don't sit on our hands , be active in talks and look for opportunities..

I agree and would add you have to be ready to be opportunistic. For example, here are some dynamics we KNOW are coming in the next two years:

1. Garland v Mitchell

2. Trae v Murray

3. Suns are leveraged to the eyeballs and KD is getting old; what does Booker think of that?

4. Minni is gonna get super expensive and may need to move KAT.

5. kyrie will ditch Dallas

[SouthernFryd]

Just switch out everyone but Wemby and see what happens.

None of 'em are worth keeping. You can only get better...almost by default.

Just put up a Fire Sale sign...."What would you give me for anyone on the Spurs except Wemby. They all up for Sale. Let's talk...PS, don't tell Pop. "

Keep the ones you can't sell. Maybe you can get something for 'em later on.

[Splits]

D-Bust

[spurraider21]

D-Bust
his jumper/release has been so smooth this year

1763204104405598242

[Splits]

his jumper/release has been so smooth this year

1763204104405598242

He'd be such a get, no Topic or Dilly or some other stupid teenager

[Chinook]

I feel like I've made my stance abundantly clear in multiple threads, so I won't spend too much time on it now. In short, the Spurs being patient has nothing to do with finding the right co-star for Wemby. It's because there are no co-stars for Wemby that can alter the team's window besides a handful of top vets like Durant, James, Curry, Leonard and maybe Butler (this is excluding the top-five players who aren't going to be traded). Young, Mitchell or whoever else is not going to do anything until Victor becomes a championship centerpiece, and that will take years. Once he's there, the specific differences between those players won't matter. It's like how James won titles with a bunch of different co-stars. They have the time to draft players they like and develop them, because Victor's window isn't open yet. Once that changes, then they can make a trade for the co-star, if one is even necessary at that point.

Very little matters besides Victor leveling up. There's basically zero reason to hand-wring about the team during this stretch. There are players who I think could help him do that, but changing the culture of the Spurs, mentoring Wemby are not the same as winning games or having the highest team ratings in 2K. Young, Mitchell and Markkanen are basically the exact wrong guys for the team to bring in my mind. If the question is "If not them, who?" then the answer is "Basically anyone else." Besides those aforementioned stars, I would be really interested in Khris Middleton and Paul George, less interested in Gordon Hayward, Robert Covington, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan and Jerami Grant, and even less interested in James Harden, Tobias Harris and D'Angelo Russell. At the same time, drafting and developing players remains a high priority. As I've mentioned before, my ideal rotation (assuming no one major gets cut or traded) would look like this:

First-Round PG, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champagnie
Big Money Vet Wing, Johnson, First-Round Wing
Sochan, RE-Level Vet Defensive Forward, Developmental Forward
Wembanyama, Collins, Min-Level Vet Center

There are other combinations that I think make sense, or course, but paying a bunch of assets and salary space for a PG isn't that high on my personal list.

[z0sa]

Paraplegia? Or "waiting"? You have to be aggressive in a League this competitive. This is why the fans tune in. The draft is about the only way to "luck" into being decent, not even good. We've gotten plenty of that luck. Time to throw patience to the wayside and make big decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean a trade even, though I'd strongly prefer some kind of move being made, if only for the sake of momentum. But if we are posting a similar record by the ASB of next season, for instance, that also means it's time to begin heavily weighing the idea that waiting is no longer a viable choice.

It's up to PATFO whether they really want to roll with basically the same club+a high draft pick next season. If we suck, it'll mean our boys haven't stepped up - therefore their stock in trade negotiations will also be at an all-time low. Can we take that risk? What does PATFO see that we can't, I guess, is really what I'm asking.

Anyway, that limits our options. If we want to talk fantasy, yeah, sure, someone like Giannis would be fantastic. Wemby's got a lot of years left, basketball gods willing. Let Giannis get his. It's like KD going to GS. Do you pass on those years of being perhaps the most dominant team ever over a single player's legacy? No. As a fan, you take everyone of those you can get.

[DAF86]

I feel like I've made my stance abundantly clear in multiple threads, so I won't spend too much time on it now. In short, the Spurs being patient has nothing to do with finding the right co-star for Wemby. It's because there are no co-stars for Wemby that can alter the team's window besides a handful of top vets like Durant, James, Curry, Leonard and maybe Butler (this is excluding the top-five players who aren't going to be traded). Young, Mitchell or whoever else is not going to do anything until Victor becomes a championship centerpiece, and that will take years. Once he's there, the specific differences between those players won't matter. It's like how James won titles with a bunch of different co-stars. They have the time to draft players they like and develop them, because Victor's window isn't open yet. Once that changes, then they can make a trade for the co-star, if one is even necessary at that point.

Very little matters besides Victor leveling up. There's basically zero reason to hand-wring about the team during this stretch. There are players who I think could help him do that, but changing the culture of the Spurs, mentoring Wemby are not the same as winning games or having the highest team ratings in 2K. Young, Mitchell and Markkanen are basically the exact wrong guys for the team to bring in my mind. If the question is "If not them, who?" then the answer is "Basically anyone else." Besides those aforementioned stars, I would be really interested in Khris Middleton and Paul George, less interested in Gordon Hayward, Robert Covington, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan and Jerami Grant, and even less interested in James Harden, Tobias Harris and D'Angelo Russell. At the same time, drafting and developing players remains a high priority. As I've mentioned before, my ideal rotation (assuming no one major gets cut or traded) would look like this:

First-Round PG, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champagnie
Big Money Vet Wing, Johnson, First-Round Wing
Sochan, RE-Level Vet Defensive Forward, Developmental Forward
Wembanyama, Collins, Min-Level Vet Center

There are other combinations that I think make sense, or course, but paying a bunch of assets and salary space for a PG isn't that high on my personal list.

What's the reasoning behind thinking guys like Mitchell and Markannen are "the exact wrong players to bring", but accepting a DeMar DeRozan?

[scott]

I feel like I've made my stance abundantly clear in multiple threads, so I won't spend too much time on it now. In short, the Spurs being patient has nothing to do with finding the right co-star for Wemby. It's because there are no co-stars for Wemby that can alter the team's window besides a handful of top vets like Durant, James, Curry, Leonard and maybe Butler (this is excluding the top-five players who aren't going to be traded). Young, Mitchell or whoever else is not going to do anything until Victor becomes a championship centerpiece, and that will take years. Once he's there, the specific differences between those players won't matter. It's like how James won titles with a bunch of different co-stars. They have the time to draft players they like and develop them, because Victor's window isn't open yet. Once that changes, then they can make a trade for the co-star, if one is even necessary at that point.

Very little matters besides Victor leveling up. There's basically zero reason to hand-wring about the team during this stretch. There are players who I think could help him do that, but changing the culture of the Spurs, mentoring Wemby are not the same as winning games or having the highest team ratings in 2K. Young, Mitchell and Markkanen are basically the exact wrong guys for the team to bring in my mind. If the question is "If not them, who?" then the answer is "Basically anyone else." Besides those aforementioned stars, I would be really interested in Khris Middleton and Paul George, less interested in Gordon Hayward, Robert Covington, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan and Jerami Grant, and even less interested in James Harden, Tobias Harris and D'Angelo Russell. At the same time, drafting and developing players remains a high priority. As I've mentioned before, my ideal rotation (assuming no one major gets cut or traded) would look like this:

First-Round PG, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champagnie
Big Money Vet Wing, Johnson, First-Round Wing
Sochan, RE-Level Vet Defensive Forward, Developmental Forward
Wembanyama, Collins, Min-Level Vet Center

There are other combinations that I think make sense, or course, but paying a bunch of assets and salary space for a PG isn't that high on my personal list.

I think this is a perfectly sound approach based entirely upon the wrong premise, which is that Wemby will take a number of years before he is ready to be a championship centerpiece. What’s we’ve seen, however, is that Wemby’s rate of development is significantly greater than any other player before him. If he were on a normal development trajectory, then this approach would make a ton of sense. But if you believe he is on an accelerated developmental trajectory then the team building around him should be accelerated commensurately.

I base my team building philosophy around the idea that Year 3 Wemby will be a championship centerpiece. If that is true, you should start putting some of the most key elements around him in Year 2, to allow proper time for them to gel.

Just my $0.02.

[tbdog]

Chinook Wemby is far more advanced than any other rookie before him. Woj said he might be the best player on both ends by year 3. He will honestly be the best defender next year. It's also about getting him playoff experience, because once he is an mvp type player, he already has gone through the playoff experience. Timmy did the first two seasons. TD even missed a game winner to the jazz if I recall.

[exstatic]

Chinook Wemby is far more advanced than any other rookie before him. Woj said he might be the best player on both ends by year 3. He will honestly be the best defender next year. It's also about getting him playoff experience, because once he is an mvp type player, he already has gone through the playoff experience. Timmy did the first two seasons. TD even missed a game winner to the jazz if I recall.

He’s actually the best defender right now. Don’t confuse the media driven award with the reality.

[JPB]

Lol, this thread is pretty much making the case for why they should just build through the draft over the next 2-3 years. It seems like the free agent/diva star market is actually not as robust as we think, and the young players worth a damn (SGA, Ant, Hali, Fox, Book(?), Tatum) aren’t really available any time soon.

And to draft who, and do what? find better players that the ones you named in the draft? You have statistically much, much less chances to achieve that, but yet a generational talent in your roster waiting for (real) help, not watching rookies developed for 4 years only to become role players or 3rd stringers.

Or just trusting the "system" and 75 y.o Pop to fabricate stars? None of the current guys on the roster are even 3rd options. Can the spurs, who have been poorly drafting these last few years, really build throught the draft to find real game changers these next 2-3 years?

Who's gonna be that in this year's draft? Or just waiting another year or two just praying a Flagg or Cooper lands here and actually becomes a star, which remains to be proven (Flagg has already lost credit in many scouts eyes)...

And is Vic really ready to spend the next 2-3 years at the bottom of the league? Even adding a couple of vets with the bunch of picks spurs have the next few years wouldn't make the spurs a PO team.

[JPB]

He’s actually the best defender right now. Don’t confuse the media driven award with the reality.

Yeah, it really seems Chinnok doesn't seem to understand Wemby is special in such a way that you can't just play the waiting game, almost to a philosophical or esoterical point. theres IS urgency and even responsability to give Wemby's help rather quickly... There' no way, you can just add some more rookies to that roster and see wEmby lost in that mess for a few more years while he starts posting quadruple double as the best defenser in the league.

That's just an insult to him and basketball, spurs have make the POs and Wemby start to play in meaningfull games next year. Chinook also relies son the assumption that spurs can just "pick the guys they like" and necessarily make them valuable players in a contending spurs teams of good trade assets... Recent experience showed that's really not a given.

[exstatic]

Yeah, it really seems Chinnok doesn't seem to understand Wemby is special in such a way that you can't just play the waiting game, almost to a philosophical or esoterical point. theres IS urgency and even responsability to give Wemby's help rather quickly... There' no way, you can just add some more rookies to that roster and see wEmby lost in that mess for a few more years while he starts posting quadruple double as the best defenser in the league.

That's just an insult to him and basketball, spurs have make the POs and Wemby start to play in meaningfull games next year. Chinook also relies son the assumption that spurs can just "pick the guys they like" and necessarily make them valuable players in a contending spurs teams of good trade assets... Recent experience showed that's really not a given.

I think our summer will look like Houston’s last year, except the vets won’t be knuckle heads. Don’t see a big splash trade just yet, though. Maybe one or two small ones.

[CGD]

I feel like I've made my stance abundantly clear in multiple threads, so I won't spend too much time on it now. In short, the Spurs being patient has nothing to do with finding the right co-star for Wemby. It's because there are no co-stars for Wemby that can alter the team's window besides a handful of top vets like Durant, James, Curry, Leonard and maybe Butler (this is excluding the top-five players who aren't going to be traded). Young, Mitchell or whoever else is not going to do anything until Victor becomes a championship centerpiece, and that will take years. Once he's there, the specific differences between those players won't matter. It's like how James won titles with a bunch of different co-stars. They have the time to draft players they like and develop them, because Victor's window isn't open yet. Once that changes, then they can make a trade for the co-star, if one is even necessary at that point.

Very little matters besides Victor leveling up. There's basically zero reason to hand-wring about the team during this stretch. There are players who I think could help him do that, but changing the culture of the Spurs, mentoring Wemby are not the same as winning games or having the highest team ratings in 2K. Young, Mitchell and Markkanen are basically the exact wrong guys for the team to bring in my mind. If the question is "If not them, who?" then the answer is "Basically anyone else." Besides those aforementioned stars, I would be really interested in Khris Middleton and Paul George, less interested in Gordon Hayward, Robert Covington, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan and Jerami Grant, and even less interested in James Harden, Tobias Harris and D'Angelo Russell. At the same time, drafting and developing players remains a high priority. As I've mentioned before, my ideal rotation (assuming no one major gets cut or traded) would look like this:

First-Round PG, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champagnie
Big Money Vet Wing, Johnson, First-Round Wing
Sochan, RE-Level Vet Defensive Forward, Developmental Forward
Wembanyama, Collins, Min-Level Vet Center

There are other combinations that I think make sense, or course, but paying a bunch of assets and salary space for a PG isn't that high on my personal list.

This is spot on. Wemby is amazing on D, but clearly not a finished product by any means on offense. I do think “his window” will open sooner than for most, but I agree he hasn’t opened it yet. That’s a scary thought for the rest of the league.

[itzsoweezee]

It’s amazing how people who’ve watched wemby for the past year, from just his first preseason game to where he is now, still think he’s years away from being a superstar. His progress in under a season’s time, at 19/20 years old is something we’ve never seen before.

This guy is already a top 15 player in the league. He might be all NBA first team level NEXT YEAR. That’s not to say the Spurs should just rush in and throw all of their assets to acquire a vet, but the timeline we’re dealing with here is not that of a typical rookie.

[Alain]

It’s amazing how people who’ve watched wemby for the past year, from just his first preseason game to where he is now, still think he’s years away from being a superstar. His progress in under a season’s time, at 19/20 years old is something we’ve never seen before.

This guy is already a top 15 player in the league. He might be all NBA first team level NEXT YEAR. That’s not to say the Spurs should just rush in and throw all of their assets to acquire a vet, but the timeline we’re dealing with here is not that of a typical rookie.

Absolutely !
Some people here just can't think out of the box.
Wemby is ALREADY a championship centerpiece, guys. But you can't see it because it is unprecedented, and as your ability to think rely mostly on comparaisons and past experience, when there is none you are lost.

[TheChillFactor]

wemby's sidekick might be in the 9th grade right now.

Parker didn't come until the 2001 draft, Manu in 2002-03.

We'll probably need to fight through a few Derek Andersons and Samaki Walkers for the next 3 years or so.

[Chinook]

I think this is a perfectly sound approach based entirely upon the wrong premise, which is that Wemby will take a number of years before he is ready to be a championship centerpiece. What’s we’ve seen, however, is that Wemby’s rate of development is significantly greater than any other player before him. If he were on a normal development trajectory, then this approach would make a ton of sense. But if you believe he is on an accelerated developmental trajectory then the team building around him should be accelerated commensurately.

I base my team building philosophy around the idea that Year 3 Wemby will be a championship centerpiece. If that is true, you should start putting some of the most key elements around him in Year 2, to allow proper time for them to gel.

Just my $0.02.


Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) Wemby is far more advanced than any other rookie before him. Woj said he might be the best player on both ends by year 3. He will honestly be the best defender next year. It's also about getting him playoff experience, because once he is an mvp type player, he already has gone through the playoff experience. Timmy did the first two seasons. TD even missed a game winner to the jazz if I recall.


Yeah, it really seems Chinnok doesn't seem to understand Wemby is special in such a way that you can't just play the waiting game, almost to a philosophical or esoterical point. theres IS urgency and even responsability to give Wemby's help rather quickly... There' no way, you can just add some more rookies to that roster and see wEmby lost in that mess for a few more years while he starts posting quadruple double as the best defenser in the league.

That's just an insult to him and basketball, spurs have make the POs and Wemby start to play in meaningfull games next year. Chinook also relies son the assumption that spurs can just "pick the guys they like" and necessarily make them valuable players in a contending spurs teams of good trade assets... Recent experience showed that's really not a given.

To me, the "Wemby's superman and thus rules don't apply" argument is exactly what every other team that found itself in this situation talked themselves into. "Lebron is superman", "Davis is superman" "Zion is superman" "Doncic is superman". I know, I know, "But Wemby is super-duperman, so this time the logic really does hold." Or maybe the fact that even GOAT candidates take years to develop into true championship centerpieces should matter more to folks than it does.

This is why I feel like I have to point out the places Wemby has to grow, to the point that it bothers a lot of posters. It's not that I like talking so much about it. But there's a massive disconnect between where Wemby is and where will be when he's a championship centerpiece. It is true that in some ways, he's overshooting the mark. Most championship centerpieces aren't serious DPOY candidates, for example. But in the fundamental aspects players need when locking into four series against good teams, it's not there. Teams can gameplan against him. There are players he just can't handle who play his position. His endurance and pacing aren't there. Hell, his actual technique on both ends needs a ton of work but are being covered up by his amazing physical profile. These are things that are expected with his age, so pointing them out isn't criticism. When he's actually ready, those things will be solved. But you can't handwave them the way posters want to or just blame them on someone else.

As I've said before, not being willing to see Wemby where he is doesn't mean one "supports him more". It's really important for the Spurs to accurately gauge Wemby's progress and to build for who he is rather than for who they want him to be. A team can go too fast, especially when you're talking about making big suboptimal moves in an attempt to move as fast as possible. The 2024 off-season isn't a particularly good time to make a move. The team doesn't have cap space, and free agency doesn't look great. Most of the team's draft picks are of nebulous value. It's not clear how many pieces are needed or even which ones.

People want to substitute their pessimism for the Spurs' ability to build a team for actual strategy. The team needs to do what they think is best, because otherwise they're just stabbing in the dark. Maybe Wright and RC need to be fired, but if they're going to be in charge, they need to execute their vision, and that can totally involve drafting players that need years to develop like Parker did. That's not the same thing as drafting a guy like Pokusevski who are only potential with no substance. But there are plenty of players at the top of the draft who offer things the team needs, and considering the financial situation the team is in, they don't have the money to address all of their holes with high-quality vets anyway. It would be best to approach this off-season with a mix of vets and young players, with the vets helping to create a system in which the young guys who do get drafted and slotted into the rotation have the support they need to help right away.

[Raven]

The draft is a crapshoot and Wembanyama should organically virtually single handedly take them out of high lottery pick status as soon as next season.

Some think Antetokounmpo and Doncic could demand trades within' a few years, but when players of this magnitude demand a trade, teams work to get them to preferred destinations.

Both massive egos, who care deeply about their "legacies", the notion that the former would want to team up with a fellow big with guard like skills and the potential to be greater historically, is absurd.

He'll almost certainly want essentially a younger version of the Bucks, that's not as tapped out on assets. That way he can be seen as the "bus driver".

The latter has a team that's now at the point to probably keep him happy enough for the foreseeable future, but it always has to be his show, which wouldn't be the case here. Even if he were open to it, the notion that the Mavericks would ever trade a player of this magnitude to the Spurs is absurd.

So who's left? Booker is a name to keep an eye on. The Suns are not good enough now and tapped out on assets. He might demand a trade within' a couple of years, but he'll be 30ish then and is overrated.

Is the possibility of that really worth not pursuing something significant now?

where do you guys get this shit tbh

[Chinook]

What's the reasoning behind thinking guys like Mitchell and Markannen are "the exact wrong players to bring", but accepting a DeMar DeRozan?

Because they don't change the window but are expensive (both in terms of assets and long-term commitment). It's okay to be expensive if you open up a window like that group with Lebron does. You're basically having Wemby play the Wade role to their Shaq. Otherwise, what they need is a vet who can help build a winning culture for Wemby and to a lesser extent Vassell. Ideally, such a player would take some of the pressure off Vassell and the new PG to make plays for the rest of the team while adding a defensive presence. That's why Durant is at the top of my wish list, then Butler. In the next tier, Middleton is basically the perfect guy for a Spurs team that is still working its way toward being a contender, with Paul George requiring too much sacrifice to be ideal along with being too injury-prone. Then you start basically having to miss out on certain qualities which is how you run into guys like Hayward and DeRozan, who check some boxes and are much more affordable but who leave some boxes unchecked and would hopefully only be around for a short period of time.

[KobesAchilles]

The thing about it is that we are in a position to both be patient and to surround him with pieces. If Spurstalk really believe drafting is the right way to go in order to support Wemby then we don't really need the boatload of picks that we have. Just continue to develop Branham, Vassell, KJ, Sochan, Wesley etc. We can add value vets to surround Wemby that won't make us a title contender in anyway shape or form, but would give the Spurs real playoff experience. And chinooks opinion aside that playoff experience doesn't matter to Wemby, it would be nice for Wemby to get playoff experience. So by the time we are ready to "win" with him as the focal point, he will be plenty battle tested. The sooner Wemby is in the playoffs the better it is for him in the long run.

Now where I am in agreement with Chinook is they type of vets we need. I am hardcore hoping that the Bucks lose in round 1, or the Clippers, or even the Warriors dismantle their core. I really want one of PG13, Middleton, or Klay. PG13 would fit seamlessly on our team and is a great mentor to younger players. Klay and Middleton bring a type of professionalism that our players have no idea about. They turn the kids into serious pros. You can't have Pop teach that to our kids. It has to come from other proven players, ideally players they look up to.

But the Spurs can draft young prospects like Dilly or Sheppard or Topic or Risacher or whomever and still surround Wemby with real vets. To me, us spending our capspace like the Rockets did is really the best route to go. The Rockets didn't go longterm and screw up their future. FVV is on a 2 year deal. Brooks on a 3 year deal. Offering PG13 3 years 120 or, absorbing Middleton's contract, or even giving Klay 3 years 100 million isn't the worst thing in the world for us.

[MaNu4Tres]

Trae and Garland are extremely overrated considering the hype they are getting on here.

Spurs shouldn't pursue either unless they can be had for 30 cents on the dollar of their perceived value IMO.

Both would be a massive mistake if Spurs had to pay 4 high end 1sts and pay near max money on the cap.

Hawks have been doing just fine without Tre the past 6 weeks, I wonder why that is.

[Atl Spur]

Trae and Garland are extremely overrated considering the hype they are getting on here.

Spurs shouldn't pursue either unless they can be had for 30 cents on the dollar of their perceived value IMO.

Both would be a massive mistake if Spurs had to pay 4 high end 1sts and pay near max money on the cap.

Hawks have been doing just fine without Tre the past 6 weeks, I wonder why that is.

Trae fills the arena…..

[rankingtear]

Wemby needs a mid range game, before even thinking about playoffs.

[Alain]

To me, the "Wemby's superman and thus rules don't apply" argument is exactly what every other team that found itself in this situation talked themselves into. "Lebron is superman", "Davis is superman" "Zion is superman" "Doncic is superman". I know, I know, "But Wemby is super-duperman, so this time the logic really does hold." Or maybe the fact that even GOAT candidates take years to develop into true championship centerpieces should matter more to folks than it does.

The hype was wrong 9 times so it has to be wrong the 10th time..
Fact is even GOATs always take years to develop so it will never change til the end of times...
Unexpected nether happens in my life cause past always repeat itself, blah blah blah, so boring !

Fact is that Wemby, with all his undeniable flaws, in a season that is nothing but a big training/experimenting session, playing with headless ducks who can't make a lob or a decent entry pass close to the rim or even play organised defense, is already a top 15/20 player and the best defender in the league. Where in the past have you seen that already so you can tell that it will repeat itself ?

This team is two pretty good role players in their prime, and (the difficult part) a corrective patch for Sochan brain, shy of competing for a place in conference finals.

[itzsoweezee]

Wemby needs a mid range game, before even thinking about playoffs.

Wtf? Wemby is like the last person to need a midrange game. Where do you people come up with this stuff?

[Spurs Homer]

Hahahahaha….

find players who can throw lobs- accurate lobs

find players who can shoot accurately- simple 3 point shooters

(currently- no one on the spurs ever learned these two basic things)

then you can worry about dream team pairings…

[itzsoweezee]

wemby's sidekick might be in the 9th grade right now.

Parker didn't come until the 2001 draft, Manu in 2002-03.

We'll probably need to fight through a few Derek Andersons and Samaki Walkers for the next 3 years or so.

The problem with your analogy is that Tim had David Robinson. Wemby has no one even close to all star caliber.

And Robinson’s prime years were wasted with terrible supporting player after terrible supporting player. The spurs cannot fuck this up again.

[Knoxxx]

How does this thread differ from the likely offseason scenarios thread or the free agent signings thread? Seems like we have multiple threads on the same topic or just slight variations. And no, I am not a serial complainer about people starting bad threads, normally.

[DAF86]

Because they don't change the window but are expensive (both in terms of assets and long-term commitment). It's okay to be expensive if you open up a window like that group with Lebron does. You're basically having Wemby play the Wade role to their Shaq. Otherwise, what they need is a vet who can help build a winning culture for Wemby and to a lesser extent Vassell. Ideally, such a player would take some of the pressure off Vassell and the new PG to make plays for the rest of the team while adding a defensive presence. That's why Durant is at the top of my wish list, then Butler. In the next tier, Middleton is basically the perfect guy for a Spurs team that is still working its way toward being a contender, with Paul George requiring too much sacrifice to be ideal along with being too injury-prone. Then you start basically having to miss out on certain qualities which is how you run into guys like Hayward and DeRozan, who check some boxes and are much more affordable but who leave some boxes unchecked and would hopefully only be around for a short period of time.

I disagree guys like Mitchell and Markannen wouldn't open any kind of window. Sure, they might not become instant championship contenders as soon as they get here, but eventually they will, and you will be already set to contend for the next decade.

[Chinook]

The hype was wrong 9 times so it has to be wrong the 10th time..

Just to be clear, this is already a bad attempt to counter this. First, this isn't about "hype". The hype wasn't wrong with any of those players. They're all great. What was wrong was the impulse to rush. It should give a person pause that that impulse has never born fruit. What you're criticizing is called inductive reasoning. It's not designed to make definitive statements about the world. Pointing out that it can be wrong isn't news -- it's built into the system. That's true for the multiple arguments folks are making about the Spurs' drafting and how that should be evidence the team can't go that route. The actual splitting point is what we should question, and when you find yourself trying to will your team into making a decision that has almost exclusively cost franchises their stars, it should give you pause. Instead, fans are looking for reasons to justify that impulse to the exclusion of the many methods of team-building that have worked in the past.


This team is two pretty good role players in their prime, and (the difficult part) a corrective patch for Sochan brain, shy of competing for a place in conference finals.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I would project such a team to lose in the first round four to six games, depending on their draw. People do not appreciate how much growth is left in Wemby's game, and they simultaneously disrespect every other star in NBA history by trivializing their career progression.

[Chinook]

I disagree guys like Mitchell and Markannen wouldn't open any kind of window. Sure, they might not become instant championship contenders as soon as they get here, but eventually they will, and you will be already set to contend for the next decade.

That's not how the NBA works. They'd "be set" for two years -- two non-contending years. Then they'd be drowning in salary obligations. Then sooner than you'd think, those players will be on the downside of their careers but still making a ton of money. If you want to make a win-now move, make a real win-now move for a guy who can get the team a title. If you want to build for the future, build for the future with a guy who can help lay the foundation. Don't bring in a guy in his early prime who costs a lot but doesn't have the intangibles to take the team to the mountain top. Get Wemby a Shaq or a Millsap. Do not get him a Jermaine O'Neal.

[Chinook]

How does this thread differ from the likely offseason scenarios thread or the free agent signings thread? Seems like we have multiple threads on the same topic or just slight variations. And no, I am not a serial complainer about people starting bad threads, normally.

We're going to be having the same arguments over and over for at least the next 2.5 months, if not all the way through August. It's basically going to be folks asking "Are we there yet?" for the entire car ride.

[Pauleta14]

I think this is a perfectly sound approach based entirely upon the wrong premise, which is that Wemby will take a number of years before he is ready to be a championship centerpiece. What’s we’ve seen, however, is that Wemby’s rate of development is significantly greater than any other player before him. If he were on a normal development trajectory, then this approach would make a ton of sense. But if you believe he is on an accelerated developmental trajectory then the team building around him should be accelerated commensurately.

I base my team building philosophy around the idea that Year 3 Wemby will be a championship centerpiece. If that is true, you should start putting some of the most key elements around him in Year 2, to allow proper time for them to gel.

Just my $0.02.


This.

If we consider Victor stunning development rate, he’s at year 3 already, another season at the same rate and he’ll be at least year 5.

Every rules have exceptions and Wemby is the definition of one

[Pauleta14]

Chinook

None of the "superman" players you named had even close to Victor's progression's rate during their rookie season, which makes your point moot

Just go back check your most optimistic predictions for Victor's rookie season to realise how wrong you were and then imagine how far he'll be next season from your present predictions.

He's not a normal "case" and shouldn't be treated like one

[DAF86]

That's not how the NBA works. They'd "be set" for two years -- two non-contending years. Then they'd be drowning in salary obligations. Then sooner than you'd think, those players will be on the downside of their careers but still making a ton of money. If you want to make a win-now move, make a real win-now move for a guy who can get the team a title. If you want to build for the future, build for the future with a guy who can help lay the foundation. Don't bring in a guy in his early prime who costs a lot but doesn't have the intangibles to take the team to the mountain top. Get Wemby a Shaq or a Millsap. Do not get him a Jermaine O'Neal.

How do Shaq and Milsap end in the same grouping? :lol

Let's agree to disagree, I guess. I fail to see how an established star in his prime like Mitchell wouldn't be a good get, but a flawed player, that is also past his prime, like DeRozan would.

I would even prefer Mitchell over guys like Durant or Lebron. Unless you bring absolute top players (Jokic, Luka, Giannis) you won't become a championship contender right away, you'll need to give the team some time to gel. A guy like Mitchell can afford to wait 2 or 3 years for the team to get where it needs to. There's no guarantee a Lebron, a Durant, or a Curry is still good 3 years from now.

[Brazil]

This board generally praises OKC for stacking picks, building up from scratch, not throwing money at washed up FAs but when the Spurs do the same, FO sucks :lol

Spurs wanted to know what they had with Victor before committing now they know, let's see what next moves are going to be.

They developped a first round pick in a healthy potential goat, if you don't see the great work they are doing developing Victor incredible skill set you are blind. I'm fine for now with FO not giving up picks and flexibility on whatever flavor of the month FA.

[Kevin]

This board generally praises OKC for stacking picks, building up from scratch, not throwing money at washed up FAs but when the Spurs do the same, FO sucks :lol

Spurs wanted to know what they had with Victor before committing now they know, let's see what next moves are going to be.

They developped a first round pick in a healthy potential goat, if you don't see the great work they are doing developing Victor incredible skill set you are blind. I'm fine for now with FO not giving up picks and flexibility on whatever flavor of the month FA.

Wright is nowhere near the drafter that Presti is. Biggest difference right there.

I'd go all in on Lauri and Trea Young and form a affordable big three for the next three years.

[scott]

It's a good think we have some scientific ways to approximately measure Wemby's "readiness". In my opinion, this is the best one.

1774930937123389683

I'm only but one person, and reasonable people are free to disagree, but I'm not sure how you look at this chart and come away with "it will be at least a few more YEARS before Wemby's window is open"

[CorrectCrusader]

I don't think we have to worry about getting too good too quick with Wemby because of how stacked the west is.

[Chinook]

How do Shaq and Milsap end in the same grouping? :lol

They're not. They're literally in opposite groupings. Did you not read anything I wrote?

[DAF86]

They're not. They're literally in opposite groupings. Did you not read anything I wrote?

They are in the same grouping as in the "players to get" group. I understand Shaq would be a Lebron and Milsap would be a DeRozan. I just think it's very bad reasoning.

[DAF86]

just to remain in the whole "Wemby=Wade, Lebron=Shaq" analogy. The Heat got one flukey championship out of that pairing and then, when Shaq left, they had to start all over again with them staying in mediocrity for a long ass time untill Lebron decided to join them. Do you really want to follow that path? If instead of a Shaquille O'neal, the Heat would have gotten a, let's say, an Amare Stoudamire (the analogy isn't perfect because I think Mitchell will prove to be better for longer), I think it is safe to say the Heat would have built a contender for a longer period of time.

[itzsoweezee]

This board generally praises OKC for stacking picks, building up from scratch, not throwing money at washed up FAs but when the Spurs do the same, FO sucks :lol

Spurs wanted to know what they had with Victor before committing now they know, let's see what next moves are going to be.

They developped a first round pick in a healthy potential goat, if you don't see the great work they are doing developing Victor incredible skill set you are blind. I'm fine for now with FO not giving up picks and flexibility on whatever flavor of the month FA.

This is not an either/or situation. The spurs are in a good position to do both. Upgrade the roster with vets, continue to collect/develop assets, and turn assets into major upgrades when the opportunity strikes.

[Chinook]

It's a good way we some scientific ways to approximately measure Wemby's "readiness". In my opinion, this is the best one.

1774930937123389683

I'm only but one person, and reasonable people are free to disagree, but I'm not sure how you look at this chart and come away with "it will be at least a few more YEARS before Wemby's window is open"

This just relies on the assumption that production and readiness are the same thing. It's that assumption that is underpinning a lot of responses in this thread. The difference between 2019 and 2023 Jokic wasn't his production. His playoff performances were almost identical. But many of us watched that first round against the Spurs a remember Murray (Jamal) saving that series the Denver. The number look great, but the Spurs were absolutely able to bother Jokic with their gameplan, and Aldridge was a tough cover, even though LMA was in his last really good year. You can contrast that with the Nuggets absolutely demolishing a much better team in 2023's first round. Or how despite the fact that Wemby is a nightmare matchup for Jokic, Nikola dominated last game. Jokic in 2019 and Jokic in 2023 were very different despite the numbers looking the same.

In that same vein, 2027 Wemby will be completely different than 2023 Wemby, even though his averages aren't going to get THAT much higher. The numbers are already ridiculous, but they're inefficient. That's somewhat true when it comes to turnovers and TS%, but I mean that more in terms of how repeatable the ways of scoring are and how much energy he has to expend to play the way he does. His lack of go-to moves would absolutely be exploited in a playoff series, and while he has done a great job learning from his mistakes to avoid fouls, there are ways to plan around him defensively that a team locked into a series can use more effectively than one playing a single game in a stretch. People are confusing Wemby looking like arguably the best rookie ever with him not looking like a rookie. He definitely looks like a rookie. He's still just starting out his career and needs a lot of experience, practice and in general time to grow into a mature player. It's just his floor is so much higher than many folks projected.

[scott]

This just relies on the assumption that production and readiness are the same thing. It's that assumption that is underpinning a lot of responses in this thread. The difference between 2019 and 2023 Jokic wasn't his production. His playoff performances were almost identical. But many of us watched that first round against the Spurs a remember Murray (Jamal) saving that series the Denver. The number look great, but the Spurs were absolutely able to bother Jokic with their gameplan, and Aldridge was a tough cover, even though LMA was in his last really good year. You can contrast that with the Nuggets absolutely demolishing a much better team in 2023's first round. Or how despite the fact that Wemby is a nightmare matchup for Jokic, Nikola dominated last game. Jokic in 2019 and Jokic in 2023 were very different despite the numbers looking the same.

In that same vein, 2027 Wemby will be completely different than 2023 Wemby, even though his averages aren't going to get THAT much higher. The numbers are already ridiculous, but they're inefficient. That's somewhat true when it comes to turnovers and TS%, but I mean that more in terms of how repeatable the ways of scoring are and how much energy he has to expend to play the way he does. His lack of go-to moves would absolutely be exploited in a playoff series, and while he has done a great job learning from his mistakes to avoid fouls, there are ways to plan around him defensively that a team locked into a series can use more effectively than one playing a single game in a stretch. People are confusing Wemby looking like arguably the best rookie ever with him not looking like a rookie. He definitely looks like a rookie. He's still just starting out his career and needs a lot of experience, practice and in general time to grow into a mature player. It's just his floor is so much higher than many folks projected.

We're both starting off at the same point: Wemby has holes in his game to correct. The only difference in your take is those holes will take years for Wemby to fix, whereas my take is that the process will go much faster. We have the single best forward-looking predictive model (DARKO) seemingly backing up my perspective, whereas yours seems to be based on the historical progression of players who are not Wemby. We'll see which one turns out more accurate.

[Chinook]

They are in the same grouping as in the "players to get" group. I understand Shaq would be a Lebron and Milsap would be a DeRozan. I just think it's very bad reasoning.

There isn't a single "players to get" group. These players, including Young, Mitchell and Mark, a paths the Spurs can take. DeRozan represents one way of going down one type of path, and Lebron represents one way of going down another type of path. Those paths are as different from each other as they are from the Young/Mitchel/Mark paths. Trying to pretend they are the same completely misses the point I was making. The "trading for a young star on a max contract" path has all of the downsides of "trade for an established centerpiece" path without any of the upsides. It also doesn't have any of the upside of the "acquire a transitional vet star" path and has larger downsides.

We can agree to disagree on which players make sense for the Spurs, but it's not really a matter of opinion if I was saying Millsap/Shaq or Lebron/DeRozan are pairings in the same group.

[JPB]

wemby's sidekick might be in the 9th grade right now.

Parker didn't come until the 2001 draft, Manu in 2002-03.

We'll probably need to fight through a few Derek Andersons and Samaki Walkers for the next 3 years or so.

spurs won a titile a couple years before that, and were still contenders before TP and Maun arrived. totally different sittuation.

Sorry but at this point, anybody believing spurs can take the patient road and just just wait another 3-4 year developing rooks before being competitive and making the POs, then maybe in year 6-7 start to contend is plain deluded.

Vic himself won't accept that. just watch the kid on the court, hsi behavior, his words, just another year in the bottom and things wouldn't go well, like the whole world of BB wouldn't understand not to see Wemby in meaningfull game by next year already... Spurs don't own the kid, he's been giving to them by the BB Gods, they have a responsability towards the spurs but towards basketball and the rest of the world too.

It's like a violonist entrusted a Stradivarius. You're not gonna play it with a mediocre band of musicians, in meaningless concerts for 4 years, waiting and hoping the other dudes "develop" skills they don't have, and sign new young prospect every year hoping they become virtuosos themselves... You might use the first year to get use to the Strad, then go play it with a quality band or ochestra for you to keep improving and quickly exploit its possibilites, and for the world to enjoy it.

[Sugus]

where do you guys get this shit tbh

I was thinking the exact same thing :lol

Specifically, replacing Giannis/Luka with Kevin Durant: massive ego, cares deeply about his "legacy". The notion that he'd want to team up with a stacked team, who just eliminated him from the playoffs, and hinder his potential to be historically great, is absurd.......

And then the KD to the Warriors signing is announced, and the curtain falls. Everything's "absurd" until reality hits you like a brick shithouse.

[DAF86]

There isn't a single "players to get" group. These players, including Young, Mitchell and Mark, a paths the Spurs can take. DeRozan represents one way of going down one type of path, and Lebron represents one way of going down another type of path. Those paths are as different from each other as they are from the Young/Mitchel/Mark paths. Trying to pretend they are the same completely misses the point I was making. The "trading for a young star on a max contract" path has all of the downsides of "trade for an established centerpiece" path without any of the upsides. It also doesn't have any of the upside of the "acquire a transitional vet star" path and has larger downsides.

We can agree to disagree on which players make sense for the Spurs, but it's not really a matter of opinion if I was saying Millsap/Shaq or Lebron/DeRozan are pairings in the same group.

They are part of the same group, since those are the type of players you would get. I understand that each type of player with different goals in mind.

I just can't get behind the reasoning at all.

1st) before getting a DeRozan, I would rather add 2 or 3 veteran role players and develop the youngsters into primary options, and I think the results would be similar, clear improvement without trully contending for a championship.

2nd) I already adressed the Lebron/Durant scenarios in the Heat analogy. You would be getting them to build an extremely short window that will get you starting all over again in a couple of years. I still prefer this option to getting a DeRozan back, tbh. :lol

[Sugus]

Trae and Garland are extremely overrated considering the hype they are getting on here.

Spurs shouldn't pursue either unless they can be had for 30 cents on the dollar of their perceived value IMO.

Both would be a massive mistake if Spurs had to pay 4 high end 1sts and pay near max money on the cap.

Hawks have been doing just fine without Tre the past 6 weeks, I wonder why that is.

Spurs aren't getting anyone at 30 cents a dollar of their perceived value, lol.

Unless Wemby becomes some LeBron-level pulling force and networking behind the scenes, the reality of San Antonio as a market kind of forces the Spurs' hands there. There's no "LA/Miami discount" to be had here.

Only thing Spurs would get on that kind of "deal" is perceivedly damaged goods player. Which is another reason the Spurs are tanking this season out and taking the longer approach, for better and worse.

[Chinook]

We're both starting off at the same point: Wemby has holes in his game to correct. The only difference in your take is those holes will take years for Wemby to fix, whereas my take is that the process will go much faster. We have the single best forward-looking predictive model (DARKO) seemingly backing up my perspective, whereas yours seems to be based on the historical progression of players who are not Wemby. We'll see which one turns out more accurate.

As far as I know, DARKO DPM doesn't even suggest it measures who's a championship centerpiece, so I don't see why it's evidence in either direction. Most advanced stats are calibrated by seeing if they are able to say good players are good. So this stat doing that doesn't give it strength. When I'm talking about the intangible gaps, they aren't going to be captured in a sample of data, especially not one that relies on Victor being the best player on a bad team getting all the shots he wants. It's a completely alien situation from the one I'm talking about. I don't know if there are stats that can answer these questions.

I do think it takes years to develop skills and experience. There's nothing about Wemby that makes me think he doesn't have a human brain and a physical body that has to obey the laws of physics and nature. I have not and am not saying Wemby will take seven years to develop. I have said that he deserves seven years to develop, and the Spurs need to be willing to see his progress clearly to avoid accelerating passed him and missing his window by making poor moves. They have the powder to be patient for multiple years rather than rushing him. It's in their best interest to take advantage of this necessary developmental time to draft and build other players either as part of the puzzle for a contending team or as trade pieces. If they don't act prematurely, they can always act later. If they act too soon, they won't be able to go back.

[Sugus]

We're both starting off at the same point: Wemby has holes in his game to correct. The only difference in your take is those holes will take years for Wemby to fix, whereas my take is that the process will go much faster. We have the single best forward-looking predictive model (DARKO) seemingly backing up my perspective, whereas yours seems to be based on the historical progression of players who are not Wemby. We'll see which one turns out more accurate.

I'm missing the part where DARKO DPM is a prediction model for a players' readiness to lead a title team? That's not my understanding of the stat, and the graph also doesn't seem to show that.

While I'm on the sooner-than-later camp, it's pretty obvious that Wemby is not ready at this point to lead a team deep into the playoffs, and it perfectly can take him 2-3-4 years to grow and mature into that. Is that a knock on his play or talent? Not at all. But some things, especially the "mind" aspects, simply cannot be rushed. Not only that, you just need to fail, and fail again, in order to learn how to succeed. It's a very valid point to make.

Does that mean the Spurs sit and twiddle their thumbs while Wemby learns in practice? Of course not - making the POs as soon as next season is exactly how you grow those abilities, and gather that experience.

But it also means that, even if you shell out in FA and deplete your assets this off-season to build a "contender", Wemby simply isn't surviving multiple 7-game playoff series as the 1A focal point of contending defenses. He's just too young and inexperienced right now, his window is certainly not open yet.

How long this growth takes is anyone's guess, but 2 to 3 years is a perfectly reasonable expectation - he would be only twenty three years old by that point. Far from the worst that can happen.

[scott]

As you said, Chinook, there is no stat that measures "championship centerpiece" (however that is defined). All we have are proxies that can act as data points to guide our best guesses as to someone's ability and timeline to develop into a centerpiece, (or a useful role player, or starter, or whatever). The proxies that we use have been the same throughout the history of organized sports: some combination of statistics and the "eye test". The mixture of the two has changed over time with the advent of Sabermetrics, Moneyball and the host of other advanced analytics that are in play now. But that's all we have.

You have your opinion of Wemby's timeline, I have mine (which appears to be more heavily dependent on analytics). There is not a right or wrong answer until there is one, which will come at some point in the future and we'll really only know one half of the equation (it's very possible both paths are right or wrong. It's possible Wemby will become a championship centerpiece regardless. It's also possible he never becomes one).

I am disinclined to be overly patient for a few reasons:

The aforementioned patience trap. It's easy to get baited into just being a little more patient, convincing yourself that your patience is a virtue, unaware of your own paralysis
What I would perceive as a false premise that moves today inherently lock you into a future with no ability to course correct. That has been shown to not be the case in a multitude of sports, repeatedly over time. This is the notion that if we (for example) traded for Trae Young, then we would be stuck with him and have given up our ability to do anything else. This ignores the fact that Trae Young may still (and in all likelihood) will continue to have value that can be salvaged later. A recently example would be how the 76ers essentially got back what they paid for James Harden. Yes, there are also examples where teams bungle this and end up worse off, but that isn't necessarily the case.
The question of whether Wemby's own perception of his timeline matches up with a prolonged vision for him. This doesn't mean that Wemby will immediately demand a trade or anything like that... but in year 7 when it's time to start thinking about his big extension... I don't want him in a place where he is thinking about how half of his time here was wasted slowly climbing steps when he wants to run up them. Even if that was the right thing to do from an outside observers POV (which will be debatable, and the media likely won't be sharing that narrative), what will matter most is whether Wemby feels that was the right thing to do. To this point, I do get the sense that Wemby and the Spurs have found a place where they are working together appropriately in this regard and whatever we see the Spurs do, it will have significantly involved Victor and this point will be mooted to some extent.

[Alain]

First, this isn't about "hype". The hype wasn't wrong with any of those players. They're all great. What was wrong was the impulse to rush.

And what kind of forced that impulse to rush ?
Well, mostly .... hype.

[scott]

I'm missing the part where DARKO DPM is a prediction model for a players' readiness to lead a title team? That's not my understanding of the stat, and the graph also doesn't seem to show that.

Hi Sugus, I addressed this in the post directly after yours, so I won't address again but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post.


While I'm on the sooner-than-later camp, it's pretty obvious that Wemby is not ready at this point to lead a team deep into the playoffs, and it perfectly can take him 2-3-4 years to grow and mature into that. Is that a knock on his play or talent? Not at all. But some things, especially the "mind" aspects, simply cannot be rushed. Not only that, you just need to fail, and fail again, in order to learn how to succeed. It's a very valid point to make.

Does that mean the Spurs sit and twiddle their thumbs while Wemby learns in practice? Of course not - making the POs as soon as next season is exactly how you grow those abilities, and gather that experience.

But it also means that, even if you shell out in FA and deplete your assets this off-season to build a "contender", Wemby simply isn't surviving multiple 7-game playoff series as the 1A focal point of contending defenses. He's just too young and inexperienced right now, his window is certainly not open yet.

How long this growth takes is anyone's guess, but 2 to 3 years is a perfectly reasonable expectation - he would be only twenty three years old by that point. Far from the worst that can happen.

I'm not really in disagreement with any of this. I think there is a strong possibility that Year 3 Wemby is ready to lead a title team. So much so that this is the outcome I'd be willing to bet on if I were the GM, and I'd build the team around this premise. If it ends up being Year 4 Wemby instead... that really doesn't change much. If it is Year 5 Wemby who is finally ready, then I've probably misgauged things a little bit but that is still okay because the team you built for Year 3 Wemby is probably largely still in tact and applicable to Year 5*. I disagree with the notion that it's better to be late than early (in terms of the team building), because if you are early - you can still adjust. But if you are late, you've missed an opportunity. If Year 3 Wemby is that Championship Centerpiece, but you've surrounded him with a non-championship caliber supporting cast, you've done him and the franchise a disservice. There is no recapturing that after the fact.

With that said, I do not advocate depleting all of our assets to build a contender this offseason. And at a price that would be acceptable to pay for Trae Young, I don't think that move even does that. The Spurs and Brian Wright have done a masterful job loading up the war chest - in fact to me it is their greatest achievement in the post-Kawhi era. I think they can use some of that capital now, while by no means depleting it, to start building the team that best supports Year 3-5 Wemby (but is READY for Year 3 Wemby). I also think it is important for some of those elements to be in place in Year 2, so they can grow together, go to the playoffs (and be eliminated) together, etc.

*This asterisks is specifically to the notion of acquiring some aging veterans, like Chinook has proposed. That would be a scenario where your Year 3 Wemby team is no longer capable of being your Year 5 Wemby team, because those players will be completely washed or retired by then. I'm actually not sure I understand the point of acquiring a Durant now at all. He will still cost significant assets, for a short window in which Wemby is supposedly not ready, and relegates Wemby to a supporting role. I don't think that makes us a championship team in the short run - so what's the point?

[KobesAchilles]

This board generally praises OKC for stacking picks, building up from scratch, not throwing money at washed up FAs but when the Spurs do the same, FO sucks :lol

Spurs wanted to know what they had with Victor before committing now they know, let's see what next moves are going to be.

They developped a first round pick in a healthy potential goat, if you don't see the great work they are doing developing Victor incredible skill set you are blind. I'm fine for now with FO not giving up picks and flexibility on whatever flavor of the month FA.
I would love to go the OKC route. Presti replaced pretty much everybody he drafted. Wright doing that would be my wish. Not realistic to assume we are getting rid of Sochan, Vassell, and KJ, but Presti was a stonecold killer of getting rid of first round players.

And OKC made trades to get their current star. So we would could go that option. We could also keep our picks and use them on young players, continue to develop our current "core" in KJ Vassell and Sochan, AND sign expensive vets on short term deals that wouldn't get us over the hump to win a championship, but would give us actual playoff experience. Chris Paul on a one year deal, Klay on a 3 year deal. Middleton's contract. Even Gordon Hayward would be a gem to get. This team needs vets who are both good and have playoff experience and know how to play/mentor our stupid ass young player. Bc if there's one thing our players have shown, Pop has no idea how to reach them.

The reason why nobody believes in OKC and the Wolves is bc they've never done shit in the playoffs. Getting Wemby battle tested asap is the best route for us to go. I don't see how anybody is arguing against that.

[KobesAchilles]

Also Chinook I know you say that signing flawed star players will hamper our future. But the Spurs are doing the same thing anyways but instead of all-stars we are doing it with flawed non-allstar players. We gave Collins an extension, KJ is making 20 million, Vassell is making 30(?), and Sochan's extension is coming up as well. IMO we could just as easily hamper our future with shitty players and given the choice I'd rather go with a flawed allstar

[Brazil]

Wright is nowhere near the drafter that Presti is. Biggest difference right there.

I'd go all in on Lauri and Trea Young and form a affordable big three for the next three years.

Presti drafter gets a lot of credit but SGA is a trade, chet is a 2nd overall pick, durant is also a 2nd, westbrook a 4th, harden 3rd... its not like the big names are coming from bottom second rounds guys.. ibaka was a good pick at 24 there are other examples and you can find also some good picks from wright

[Brazil]

I would love to go the OKC route. Presti replaced pretty much everybody he drafted. Wright doing that would be my wish. Not realistic to assume we are getting rid of Sochan, Vassell, and KJ, but Presti was a stonecold killer of getting rid of first round players.

And OKC made trades to get their current star. So we would could go that option. We could also keep our picks and use them on young players, continue to develop our current "core" in KJ Vassell and Sochan, AND sign expensive vets on short term deals that wouldn't get us over the hump to win a championship, but would give us actual playoff experience. Chris Paul on a one year deal, Klay on a 3 year deal. Middleton's contract. Even Gordon Hayward would be a gem to get. This team needs vets who are both good and have playoff experience and know how to play/mentor our stupid ass young player. Bc if there's one thing our players have shown, Pop has no idea how to reach them.

The reason why nobody believes in OKC and the Wolves is bc they've never done shit in the playoffs. Getting Wemby battle tested asap is the best route for us to go. I don't see how anybody is arguing against that.

I'm with you on getting Wemby battle tested as soon as possible but what FO has done so far is ok in my books, let see what they will do next year

[scott]

As to the question of DARKO's use as a potential proxy for "championship readiness", this is a tweet from the middle of a good thread on why I like DARKO. Essentially, DARKO proves to be the best predictor of game outcomes, and I take the simplistic view that the cumulative result of game outcomes are the best indicator for "championship readiness" (which is another way of saying... good players make good teams, and good teams are the ones who contend for chips)

1355310193131872258

[Alain]

Presti drafter gets a lot of credit but SGA is a trade, chet is a 2nd overall pick, durant is also a 2nd, westbrook a 4th, harden 3rd... its not like the big names are coming from bottom second rounds guys.. ibaka was a good pick at 24 there are other examples and you can find also some good picks from wright

Presti credit in SA comes from the time he sold TP to Pop and Buford. He bet on the young inexperienced frenchman and won. But I'm sure you know the story already...
But other than that you're right, there is not much to write home about.

[scott]

Presti drafter gets a lot of credit but SGA is a trade, chet is a 2nd overall pick, durant is also a 2nd, westbrook a 4th, harden 3rd... its not like the big names are coming from bottom second rounds guys.. ibaka was a good pick at 24 there are other examples and you can find also some good picks from wright

PAFTO have historically been one of the best drafting teams, but as of late (2018-2021) they've kind of fallen back to the median. Hard to blame anyone who lacks some faith in the Spurs FO based on recent drafts. With that said, outside of JWill and the obvious Chet pick... I don't think Presti has been exactly crushing it himself. In fact, you could make a pretty decent young team just out of the picks he's traded away (Quickly, Lively, Sengun, McBride)

[Chinook]

And what kind of forced that impulse to rush ?
Well, mostly .... hype.

Eh, I'm not going to get into semantic games. The FOs didn't make the bad choices because of the players they had. They could've seen what they had and made better choices, and those choices would've been just as much supported by "hype". The reason why I felt the need to point out that it wasn't "hype"'s fault is because the players weren't fool's gold. They were very good right away. This has nothing to do with them creating a false impression they were more ready than they were. It is all about how execs made short-sighted decisions because they were unwilling to entertain that players don't becoming championship centerpieces over night. Tim's readiness was just as superlative as Wemby's size/skill combo, and even he was only partially ready until 2002.

[Chinook]

Also Chinook I know you say that signing flawed star players will hamper our future. But the Spurs are doing the same thing anyways but instead of all-stars we are doing it with flawed non-allstar players. We gave Collins an extension, KJ is making 20 million, Vassell is making 30(?), and Sochan's extension is coming up as well. IMO we could just as easily hamper our future with shitty players and given the choice I'd rather go with a flawed allstar

It's not about "flaws". It's about direction and timing. Young doesn't open a window. There are players who do open windows, but Wemby is going to be the most likely person to do that, and that's not really something the Spurs can rush. The Spurs having contracts won't stop that. They can still trade for almost anyone, and having Dillingham or whomever to trade instead of an undifferentiated pick isn't going to stop that.

Moreover, I don't know why I'm getting painted with a brush of saying I don't want the team to make moves. This thread, according to its OP, is about Young and Mitchell. Not thinking they're good targets is not the same thing as wanting the team to do nothing.

[Brazil]

PAFTO have historically been one of the best drafting teams, but as of late (2018-2021) they've kind of fallen back to the median. Hard to blame anyone who lacks some faith in the Spurs FO based on recent drafts. With that said, outside of JWill and the obvious Chet pick... I don't think Presti has been exactly crushing it himself. In fact, you could make a pretty decent young team just out of the picks he's traded away (Quickly, Lively, Sengun, McBride)

We tend to forget that White is 30th pick as Murray even though we are talking 2016/17 draft... I mean it is a bit soon to call 18 to 21 picks bust, Vessel at 11, Keldon at 29 and Tre at 41 are great value already

[scott]

We tend to forget that White is 30th pick as Murray even though we are talking 2016/17 draft... I mean it is a bit soon to call 18 to 21 picks bust, Vessel at 11, Keldon at 29 and Tre at 41 are great value already

Didn't say they were a bust... just that they had fallen to the median. I go by this methodology (and my opinion doesn't play into any of this - I believe what this tells me):

https://towardsdatascience.com/which-nba-teams-are-best-at-drafting-20070ccd1702

If you go to the Dashboard (here: https://braydengerrard.shinyapps.io/Draft_Scores/) - you can filter by timeframe. If you take the longest possible view (2009-2021), the Spurs rank as the 3rd best drafting team. But 2018-2021, they rank as the 12th best (even with Keldon and Tre rating as "excellent" picks). Vassell is rated an Average pick, with Lonnie, Luka, Primo and Wieskamp rated as bad picks.

[Chinook]

As you said, Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), there is no stat that measures "championship centerpiece" (however that is defined). All we have are proxies that can act as data points to guide our best guesses as to someone's ability and timeline to develop into a centerpiece, (or a useful role player, or starter, or whatever). The proxies that we use have been the same throughout the history of organized sports: some combination of statistics and the "eye test". The mixture of the two has changed over time with the advent of Sabermetrics, Moneyball and the host of other advanced analytics that are in play now. But that's all we have.

You have your opinion of Wemby's timeline, I have mine (which appears to be more heavily dependent on analytics). There is not a right or wrong answer until there is one, which will come at some point in the future and we'll really only know one half of the equation (it's very possible both paths are right or wrong. It's possible Wemby will become a championship centerpiece regardless. It's also possible he never becomes one).

Intangibles are called that for a reason. I don't think overlooking them in an attempt to have an objective measurement makes sense. The Spurs are going to have to go with their subjective evaluation of the situation and not be able to rely on some suite of stats to get them through. That's not just an "eye-test" thing, in large part because a lot of the evaluation will be about off-court elements to Wemby's life. Victor's a kid, and part of the journey to becoming a centerpiece will be him maturing as a human being. I doubt any of us are so young as to not know how much time that takes. None of us crammed for the test and came out the other side as adults. In that same way, Wemby being 7-4 and able to dribble a ball doesn't automatically mean he doesn't need the hours in the gym and film room and off-seasons to learn how to become his best self. That doesn't just come out of nowhere. With the overseas commitments, I'm not even sure how much he'll be able to work on that stuff this summer.


I am disinclined to be overly patient for a few reasons:

The aforementioned patience trap. It's easy to get baited into just being a little more patient, convincing yourself that your patience is a virtue, unaware of your own paralysis


I don't think that applies here. Victor hasn't been a Spur for even a year yet. There's no reason to believe the Spurs are going to do nothing, and there are a lot of options between that and being ultra aggressive to acquire additional players.




What I would perceive as a false premise that moves today inherently lock you into a future with no ability to course correct. That has been shown to not be the case in a multitude of sports, repeatedly over time. This is the notion that if we (for example) traded for Trae Young, then we would be stuck with him and have given up our ability to do anything else. This ignores the fact that Trae Young may still (and in all likelihood) will continue to have value that can be salvaged later. A recently example would be how the 76ers essentially got back what they paid for James Harden. Yes, there are also examples where teams bungle this and end up worse off, but that isn't necessarily the case.


It's not about one iteration. It's about the cycle to occurs. A team that accelerates their timeline cannot go back. They can undo a Young trade in the sense they can trade him to another team, but they can't get back the picks they used to trade for him or the time they could've been spent on developing those picks. They'd instead get another win-now trade that is either less valuable and thus likely to be a downgrade or more valuable and including additional assets. They could get future picks or prospects, but at that point it's not really possible to take the time to develop them. Trading for a guy like Young also locks up salary space in one player, making it harder to be flexibility in acquiring more talent. If the Spurs are going to stay around the first apron or below, they aren't going to be able to build up mid-size salary slots while carrying multiple max contracts. That's not a problem if Young works out, but it's bigger deal if he only partially works out and the team needs to acquire another high-priced player to try to shore up the talent.




The question of whether Wemby's own perception of his timeline matches up with a prolonged vision for him. This doesn't mean that Wemby will immediately demand a trade or anything like that... but in year 7 when it's time to start thinking about his big extension... I don't want him in a place where he is thinking about how half of his time here was wasted slowly climbing steps when he wants to run up them. Even if that was the right thing to do from an outside observers POV (which will be debatable, and the media likely won't be sharing that narrative), what will matter most is whether Wemby feels that was the right thing to do. To this point, I do get the sense that Wemby and the Spurs have found a place where they are working together appropriately in this regard and whatever we see the Spurs do, it will have significantly involved Victor and this point will be mooted to some extent.


I don't know anyone who's advocating for building toward starting to compete in Year 7. Even Pop didn't say that. But Wemby's going to be battle expectations his whole career, which is part of the reason why I do think it's important to talk about how fans view Victor. Seeing him progressing more normally than some thought shouldn't be an issue, but fans and the media are making a huge deal about it. It doesn't matter how much Wemby sees himself as a centerpiece if he hasn't gotten there yet. That doesn't change reality. Yes, I agree that the Spurs do have to be in constant communication with Victor to make sure they're on the same page, and everything I've seen from them recently makes me think they FO is prepared to do that going forward. But they also need to be willing to respond. They aren't going to have the leverage to direct the conversation for too much longer, and that's why it's important that they try to shape it now.

[objective]

I'm on the side that Wemby will be ready to contend as soon as next year. His improvement through the year, the brief apparitions of a rookie wall, how his body has handled the increased workload of an NBA season, how good he has been in the clutch, his competitiveness...

Wemby is the window, even modestly successful drafting and roster additions with solid Wemby health will have them in the play-in at least. I look at how this team has been in games and winning with Wemby minutes only for wrecks to explode everything else.

The team's winning is going to flip like climate change. Small changes like replacing scrubs and Wemby being Wemby without the rookie non-calls, without the rookie minutes limits .... And all those games that the Spurs were in respectably are going to flip like a runaway greenhouse effect and will not be survivable for most teams.

[scott]

We strongly disagree. We'll see what happens.

[Joseph Kony]

Trae Young is the obvious answer. Get someone like Risacher in the draft, trade for Young, and suddenly our prospects at competing look much better. If Spurs only need to give up the Hawks picks for Young, you do that all day. This allows them to basically keep all their other assets for another big move. Young/Wemby duo will be absolutely lethal on offense, Spurs just need a couple two way wings to fill out the roster and they're winning 50+ games and contending for the foreseeable future, imo

[TD 21]

where do you guys get this shit tbh

Paying attention.



I feel like I've made my stance abundantly clear in multiple threads, so I won't spend too much time on it now. In short, the Spurs being patient has nothing to do with finding the right co-star for Wemby. It's because there are no co-stars for Wemby that can alter the team's window besides a handful of top vets like Durant, James, Curry, Leonard and maybe Butler (this is excluding the top-five players who aren't going to be traded). Young, Mitchell or whoever else is not going to do anything until Victor becomes a championship centerpiece, and that will take years. Once he's there, the specific differences between those players won't matter. It's like how James won titles with a bunch of different co-stars. They have the time to draft players they like and develop them, because Victor's window isn't open yet. Once that changes, then they can make a trade for the co-star, if one is even necessary at that point.

Very little matters besides Victor leveling up. There's basically zero reason to hand-wring about the team during this stretch. There are players who I think could help him do that, but changing the culture of the Spurs, mentoring Wemby are not the same as winning games or having the highest team ratings in 2K. Young, Mitchell and Markkanen are basically the exact wrong guys for the team to bring in my mind. If the question is "If not them, who?" then the answer is "Basically anyone else." Besides those aforementioned stars, I would be really interested in Khris Middleton and Paul George, less interested in Gordon Hayward, Robert Covington, Klay Thompson, DeMar DeRozan and Jerami Grant, and even less interested in James Harden, Tobias Harris and D'Angelo Russell. At the same time, drafting and developing players remains a high priority. As I've mentioned before, my ideal rotation (assuming no one major gets cut or traded) would look like this:

First-Round PG, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champagnie
Big Money Vet Wing, Johnson, First-Round Wing
Sochan, RE-Level Vet Defensive Forward, Developmental Forward
Wembanyama, Collins, Min-Level Vet Center

There are other combinations that I think make sense, or course, but paying a bunch of assets and salary space for a PG isn't that high on my personal list.


Trae and Garland are extremely overrated considering the hype they are getting on here.

Spurs shouldn't pursue either unless they can be had for 30 cents on the dollar of their perceived value IMO.

Both would be a massive mistake if Spurs had to pay 4 high end 1sts and pay near max money on the cap.

Hawks have been doing just fine without Tre the past 6 weeks, I wonder why that is.


AKA, PATFO are above reproach, know more about basketball than you ever will, 99% of the players in the league either suck or aren't good enough in some way to fit into the Spurs precious "culture" and if they're just patient, they'll either stumble into a perfect roster via the draft or will trade for Antetokounmpo or Doncic.


How does this thread differ from the likely offseason scenarios thread or the free agent signings thread? Seems like we have multiple threads on the same topic or just slight variations. And no, I am not a serial complainer about people starting bad threads, normally.

The answer is literally in the titles. Don't blame me for the usual suspects hijacking it to push their agendas.

[jesterbobman]

Wemby might well be ready to be a championship centrepiece earlier in his career than others were who won in year 7/8 of their careers. I know we crushed the Cavs in 07, but if LeBron had a better cast I think he was ready in year 4 - that, to me is the comparison point.

LeBron is an outlier success, and in terms of impact, probably is the closest to Wemby as a young rookie (Wemby's better, though older as a rookie, close enough) with a dominant path. If the Cavs did a better job building up the roster they might have been good enough to win if they got a break their way in the finals.

I think the Spurs should be thinking that Wemby is on that type of path, rather than a ready in year 8 path. I still think it's worth patience to build slowly (ish) with year 4 in mind, rather than thinking he's ready now. As good as he is, there are things to work on (Timing of taking early shots off the dribble, physical strength and ability to post up (see Holiday in the Denver game ), screen angles and slipping to take advantage of switches). Those little things will magnify his impact, move him up the total impact boards and make him a more championship ready piece as he'll have fewer holes to attack.

Slowly doesn't mean nothing, and if something comes up that means the Spurs can get an All NBA caliber player who fits, it's worth it to get the Shaq to Wemby's Wade. I don't see that as a realistic option - Curry, Luka, Shai, Hali, Brunson ain't moving, Mitchell might in FA (seems dumb to trade for him at his asset value, perfectly fine swinging on him as a FA target), then you get into more fringe guys who aren't at that all NBA level (to me, Trae isn't an All-NBA level player), where trading for them is more about an asset play than truly opening up a championship window.

[Chinook]

Again, no one thinks the Spurs should plan for Wemby to not be a centerpiece until his eighth year. Pop himself said they're hoping it's sooner than that in the very interview that brought this up. The point Pop was making as far as I can tell was to try to get folks to appreciate how high that mountain actually is and to recognize the difference between talent and mastery. GOAT candidates still take years despite basically every one of them having "all the talent in the world". It takes years to hone that talent into a refined edge. Wemby's talent is not honed at all. His talent is just large enough to where it doesn't have to be honed to obliterate his competition.

(Aside: That's why, to the dumbasses in the back, no one in their right mind is picking Chet over him. It only looks close right now because Wemby's at the start of his journey. Vic has so many more levels than Chet that it doesn't make sense to make them rivals. It would be like if Marcus Camby were set as Tim Duncan's rival. It'd be shitty to Camby to judge him by that standard, and in that same way, it'd be shitty to Holmgren is he has to be compared to someone that far out of his league his whole career.)

People want to assume that Victor having a lot of talent will speed up his ability to hone it. It may happen, but it's not a given just because he has a lot of talent. They're different qualities.

With that in mind, we can set a window opening somewhere between Wemby's fourth and sixths seasons (ranging from when Jordan exploded to when James, Durant and Leonard did), it should make more sense why trading for Young on his two-year max deal isn't really that great. People keep trying to say, "Trae's young, so he and Wemby will be a duo for 10 years." The reality is that by the time Wemby's ready to go, Trae will be either gone or on a new max deal making 30-something percent of the cap as an aging small-guard -- and that's like the best-case scenario. The numbers look even worse for Mitchell. No I'm not saying the team should be trying to go even younger. I firmly believe in the team staggering the ages of their main guys. But the team shouldn't make the decision to lock themselves into that kind of commitment right now. If you're looking for guys to raise the ceiling now, then sign actualized vets. If you're looking to build long term, draft and develop. If you're looking for a balance of the two ideas, do both. What you don't do is trying to split the difference. Get vets and draft. Don't try to get early mid-career vets instead of drafting.

[KobesAchilles]

It's not about "flaws". It's about direction and timing. Young doesn't open a window. There are players who do open windows, but Wemby is going to be the most likely person to do that, and that's not really something the Spurs can rush. The Spurs having contracts won't stop that. They can still trade for almost anyone, and having Dillingham or whomever to trade instead of an undifferentiated pick isn't going to stop that.

Moreover, I don't know why I'm getting painted with a brush of saying I don't want the team to make moves. This thread, according to its OP, is about Young and Mitchell. Not thinking they're good targets is not the same thing as wanting the team to do nothing.
I’m almost in full agreement with who you want. Everyone on your list is exactly who I want. Vets that are professionals, winners, and embrace leadership and youth. Except Demar. I don’t need him clogging the lane with another non shooter next to Wemby. But I think where we differ is that if we don’t get those vets then I believe we should trade for Mitchell or Trae. It’s not ideal. But Wemby being on a 25 win team next year doesn’t get him closer to championship caliber Wemby. He has to get to the playoffs asap. Even as the 7/8 seed. We might be pigeonholed into a second round team max for the next 3 years but I prefer that than not making the playoffs in the next 3 years.

Bc honestly as constructed, this team is 3 years away from being the7/8 seed.

[exstatic]

I’m almost in full agreement with who you want. Everyone on your list is exactly who I want. Vets that are professionals, winners, and embrace leadership and youth. Except Demar. I don’t need him clogging the lane with another non shooter next to Wemby. But I think where we differ is that if we don’t get those vets then I believe we should trade for Mitchell or Trae. It’s not ideal. But Wemby being on a 25 win team next year doesn’t get him closer to championship caliber Wemby. He has to get to the playoffs asap. Even as the 7/8 seed. We might be pigeonholed into a second round team max for the next 3 years but I prefer that than not making the playoffs in the next 3 years.

Bc honestly as constructed, this team is 3 years away from being the7/8 seed.

TBH, anyone will get undeserved wins next year off of teams that are Pooping for Cooper. If the bottom 10 teams are split evenly between EC and WC, you’ll get 10 games against the east and 18-20 games against the west where teams are actively trying to lose. You’ll likely pick up 25 wins just from tankers. There are 19 more teams for like 54 more games, so if you just average 1 win each, that puts you at 44 wins.

[lefty]

FUCK PATIENCE

[KobesAchilles]

TBH, anyone will get undeserved wins next year off of teams that are Pooping for Cooper. If the bottom 10 teams are split evenly between EC and WC, you’ll get 10 games against the east and 18-20 games against the west where teams are actively trying to lose. You’ll likely pick up 25 wins just from tankers. There are 19 more teams for like 54 more games, so if you just average 1 win each, that puts you at 44 wins.
Besides Portland, who in the West is tanking?

[ambchang]

I think people are just being unrealistic in their expectations of wemby at 20 years old. All this talk about him being the best player in the league by year three and this should be leading a team to titles.

Lebron became, arguably, the best player in the league around 2008, his year 5. He didn’t win a title until 2012, his year 9.

Jordan became the best player in the league in about 1988, his year 4, and then got the ring in year 7, 1991.

Two points. These two goats didn’t become champions until a few years after they get in the conversations as the best in the league. The reason is because the front office had to find the right pieces for them once they got into their final dominant form (in Lebrons case he found it himself). The other is that they took a few years to win a ring, so to think that wemby to start winning a ring in year 3 is some mighty high expectation bordering on unrealistic.

Unlike Duncan, magic and bird, wemby didn’t get drafted onto a good team. He’s more like jordan and lebron who got drafted onto bad teams. It will take a few more than three years for the spurs to become a title team. The only person I think who got a ring shortly after he got drafted on a bad team was Kareem with the bucks, and that’s because they got the big O, who fell off the map due to age that the bucks sucked for years until Kareem demanded a trade.

[DAF86]

I think people are just being unrealistic in their expectations of wemby at 20 years old. All this talk about him being the best player in the league by year three and this should be leading a team to titles.

Lebron became, arguably, the best player in the league around 2008, his year 5. He didn’t win a title until 2012, his year 9.

Jordan became the best player in the league in about 1988, his year 4, and then got the ring in year 7, 1991.

Two points. These two goats didn’t become champions until a few years after they get in the conversations as the best in the league. The reason is because the front office had to find the right pieces for them once they got into their final dominant form (in Lebrons case he found it himself). The other is that they took a few years to win a ring, so to think that wemby to start winning a ring in year 3 is some mighty high expectation bordering on unrealistic.

Unlike Duncan, magic and bird, wemby didn’t get drafted onto a good team. He’s more like jordan and lebron who got drafted onto bad teams. It will take a few more than three years for the spurs to become a title team. The only person I think who got a ring shortly after he got drafted on a bad team was Kareem with the bucks, and that’s because they got the big O, who fell off the map due to age that the bucks sucked for years until Kareem demanded a trade.

Lebron rang in year 9, Jordan in year 7, Shaq by year 8, Giannis in year 9, Jokic in year 9, Curry by year 6, Durant by year 10, Doncic is in year 7 and no ring in sight, unless they win 4 series without home court advantage. Those are the best players I've seen in my lifetime (outside of Timmy and Kobe that won it early because they were drafted into good teams). Spurs fans are really tripping with Wemby having to contend by year 3.

[spursparker9]

True but hopefully Wemby can remain calm after seeing Chet won multiple rings with OKC first.

[ambchang]

True but hopefully Wemby can remain calm after seeing Chet won multiple rings with OKC first.

OKC looks good, but we have all seen promising young cores came back with nothing. The 80s bucks, the hawks, the 80s Mavs, the rockets (the hakeem b2b was totally overhauled of the twin towers version), the jailblazers, the Webber kings, SSOL, the durant Westbrook harden ibaka core.

A couple of years ago the grizzlies were going to be the next great thing. OKC looks good now, but there are still som holes to fill and the title is not as easy to get as people think it is.

[JPB]

Lebron rang in year 9, Jordan in year 7, Shaq by year 8, Giannis in year 9, Jokic in year 9, Curry by year 6, Durant by year 10, Doncic is in year 7 and no ring in sight, unless they win 4 series without home court advantage. Those are the best players I've seen in my lifetime (outside of Timmy and Kobe that won it early because they were drafted into good teams). Spurs fans are really tripping with Wemby having to contend by year 3.

Show me anyone here who is "really tripping with Wemby having to contend by year 3? Anyone, just one person who said that?

[VBM]

Lebron rang in year 9, Jordan in year 7, Shaq by year 8, Giannis in year 9, Jokic in year 9, Curry by year 6, Durant by year 10, Doncic is in year 7 and no ring in sight, unless they win 4 series without home court advantage. Those are the best players I've seen in my lifetime (outside of Timmy and Kobe that won it early because they were drafted into good teams). Spurs fans are really tripping with Wemby having to contend by year 3.

Bron - won a playoff series and was a game away from the ECF in year 3

Jordan - made the playoffs every year until he became a Wizard, won first playoff series in year 4

Shaq - playoffs in year 2, went to the finals in year 3

Giannis - playoffs year 2, first playoff series win year 6

Jokic - playoffs year 5, game away from WCF

Curry - playoffs year 4, first series win

Durant - playoffs year 3, first series win year 4

Doncic - playoffs year 2, first series win year 4

Just for reference

[JPB]

I think people are just being unrealistic in their expectations of wemby at 20 years old. All this talk about him being the best player in the league by year three and this should be leading a team to titles.

Lebron became, arguably, the best player in the league around 2008, his year 5. He didn’t win a title until 2012, his year 9.

Jordan became the best player in the league in about 1988, his year 4, and then got the ring in year 7, 1991.

Two points. These two goats didn’t become champions until a few years after they get in the conversations as the best in the league. The reason is because the front office had to find the right pieces for them once they got into their final dominant form (in Lebrons case he found it himself). The other is that they took a few years to win a ring, so to think that wemby to start winning a ring in year 3 is some mighty high expectation bordering on unrealistic.

Unlike Duncan, magic and bird, wemby didn’t get drafted onto a good team. He’s more like jordan and lebron who got drafted onto bad teams. It will take a few more than three years for the spurs to become a title team. The only person I think who got a ring shortly after he got drafted on a bad team was Kareem with the bucks, and that’s because they got the big O, who fell off the map due to age that the bucks sucked for years until Kareem demanded a trade.


Again, show me anyone here who expects Wemby to contend in year 3 ? Now can Wemby be the best player in the league in year 3? Yup, He could be in the MVP convo next year already. As pundits said, it took Victor half a season what takes other players 5 years to improve like he did.

Anyway, all your comparisons with GOAT players who played or stopped playing 20 years ago are pointless, specially in today's much more offensive NBA. We have NEVER seen somebody like Wemby in the NBA. Never. He's an alien.

- How many of the guys you named, were in the convo for defensive player of the year in their rookie season? Lebron or Bird never were once in their career, Wemby might be just that for the NEXT 12 YEARS IN A ROW.

- How many posted 5x5 in their rookie season? Only 13 players ( or so) had a 5x5 IN HISTORY. From all the players you named, only Olajuwon did. Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Lebron NEVER HAD ONE IN THEIR ENTIRE CAREER... WEMBY HAD ONE AND ALMOST BACK TO BACK 5x5 IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON....

Victor could post several quadruple doubles by next season already and has broken bunches ALL NBA HISTORY records (not just rookie records) in his rookie season.

We have never seen a player who can dominate and intimidate on both sides of the floor like that. Never. And bringing 20 years old comparisons is pointless, it's not becasue it happened like that with former GOATs that it will with Victor.

[MultiTroll]

We have NEVER seen somebody like Wemby in the NBA. Never. He's an alien.
All done with an alcoholic bird brain hindering him via his strategies and roster.

Worth mentioning.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs aren't getting anyone at 30 cents a dollar of their perceived value, lol.


No shit?

Which is why it won't happen if the Spurs are smart.

Trae and Garland are all highlights and volume scoring while being some of the biggest liabilities on D. The stuff that isn't conducive to winning.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs should wait for Giannis or Luka.

However, if they can hit 1 or 2 home runs in the next 2 drafts that could be the difference to put the Spurs over the top in the near future as Wemby, Dev, Jeremy keep improving.

It's a year to year evaluation, but as it sits now, it would be beyond impatient and stupid to get desperate for fools gold All Stars in Trae and Garland.

[VBM]

Spurs should wait for Giannis or Luka.

However, if they can hit 1 or 2 home runs in the next 2 drafts that could be the difference to put the Spurs over the top in the near future as Wemby, Dev, Jeremy keep improving.

It's a year to year evaluation, but as it sits now, it would be beyond impatient and stupid to get desperate for fools gold All Stars in Trae and Garland.

If Luka bolts Dallas, you'd have to think it's to team up with Jokic.

[scott]

Show me anyone here who is "really tripping with Wemby having to contend by year 3? Anyone, just one person who said that?

My guess is the closest anyone will come will be when I said this:


I think there is a strong possibility that Year 3 Wemby is ready to lead a title team. So much so that this is the outcome I'd be willing to bet on if I were the GM, and I'd build the team around this premise. If it ends up being Year 4 Wemby instead... that really doesn't change much. If it is Year 5 Wemby who is finally ready, then I've probably misgauged things a little bit but that is still okay because the team you built for Year 3 Wemby is probably largely still in tact and applicable to Year 5*. I disagree with the notion that it's better to be late than early (in terms of the team building), because if you are early - you can still adjust. But if you are late, you've missed an opportunity. If Year 3 Wemby is that Championship Centerpiece, but you've surrounded him with a non-championship caliber supporting cast, you've done him and the franchise a disservice. There is no recapturing that after the fact.

But there is a pretty distinct difference between my argument and that idea that Wemby is expected to, or "has to" contend by Year 3. That isn't my expectation of Wemby, but rather it's my feeling of what he is capable of, and one I'd be willing to bet on (with roster construction).

[DAF86]

Bron - won a playoff series and was a game away from the ECF in year 3

Jordan - made the playoffs every year until he became a Wizard, won first playoff series in year 4

Shaq - playoffs in year 2, went to the finals in year 3

Giannis - playoffs year 2, first playoff series win year 6

Jokic - playoffs year 5, game away from WCF

Curry - playoffs year 4, first series win

Durant - playoffs year 3, first series win year 4

Doncic - playoffs year 2, first series win year 4

Just for reference

Well, yeah, I expect Wemby to make the playoffs by year 3, tbh. :lol Ringig is a whole different thing, though.

Shaq moved franchises to ring, after that rushed start with the Magic.

[KobesAchilles]

Well, yeah, I expect Wemby to make the playoffs by year 3, tbh. :lol Ringig is a whole different thing, though.

Shaq moved franchises to ring, after that rushed start with the Magic.
Nah Shaq left bc of money and jealousy. He said it himself many times. He wanted to be paid more than Penny and felt (correctly) that he was more important to the Magic than Penny was. But the Magic lowballed him a bit and Shaq was insecure about Penny being the face of the franchise.

The problem is that there are a lot of people here that want the Spurs to make zero moves besides draft player and we won't make the playoffs doing that. Our team isn't good enough and it just won't be good enough for us to stand pat and "wait" for bench players to improve.

[scott]

Nah Shaq left bc of money and jealousy. He said it himself many times. He wanted to be paid more than Penny and felt (correctly) that he was more important to the Magic than Penny was. But the Magic lowballed him a bit and Shaq was insecure about Penny being the face of the franchise.

The problem is that there are a lot of people here that want the Spurs to make zero moves besides draft player and we won't make the playoffs doing that. Our team isn't good enough and it just won't be good enough for us to stand pat and "wait" for bench players to improve.

I’ve actually noticed far less people in this camp as the season has progressed and we’ve seen what Wemby brings. At this point it seems more a debate over what are the right moves and players to bring in and those debates are what make this board great (until people start telling others to commit suicide and other psychotic shit like that).

With that said, I’m still not 100% sure the Spurs FO is on this page :lol

So long as we take any reasonable path that can be construed as trying to improve the team quickly, I’ll be relatively happy this offseason. However, if it means resigning Cedi, bringing back Doug and Patty, a “big” FA signing of Evan Fournier or some bullshit, and drafting some guys… I’ll be pretty disappointed.

[JPB]

My guess is the closest anyone will come will be when I said this:



But there is a pretty distinct difference between my argument and that idea that Wemby is expected to, or "has to" contend by Year 3. That isn't my expectation of Wemby, but rather it's my feeling of what he is capable of, and one I'd be willing to bet on (with roster construction). [/COLOR]

OK Scott, but I meant a legit, regular poster, not that same guy who said spurs are in the play in next even they keep the same exact same roster... But if that the guy poeple were answering then, my bad...

Now saying this, if they can add another star and a couple elite role players in the next 2 years, that could be interesting since I believe Victor is an MVP candidate in year 3.

[scott]

OK Scott, but I meant a legit, regular poster, not that same guy who said spurs are in the play in next even they keep the same exact same roster... But if that the guy poeple were answering then, my bad...

Now saying this, if they can add another star and a couple elite role players in the next 2 years, that could be interesting since I believe Victor is an MVP candidate in year 3.

Maybe I'm misreading your post... but I'm pretty sure I've never come close to implying the Spurs are in the play-in next year if they keep the same roster...

[The Truth #6]

Jordan had Gervin. Duncan had David. Wemby had... McDermott. That's objectively hilarious. But Wemby transcends. Regardless, even most bad teams had veterans. They need to at least get Wemby some grizzled vets that play hard to set some expectations for the young players.

[ambchang]

Hi Sugus, I addressed this in the post directly after yours, so I won't address again but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post.

I'm not really in disagreement with any of this. I think there is a strong possibility that Year 3 Wemby is ready to lead a title team. So much so that this is the outcome I'd be willing to bet on if I were the GM, and I'd build the team around this premise. If it ends up being Year 4 Wemby instead... that really doesn't change much. If it is Year 5 Wemby who is finally ready, then I've probably misgauged things a little bit but that is still okay because the team you built for Year 3 Wemby is probably largely still in tact and applicable to Year 5*. I disagree with the notion that it's better to be late than early (in terms of the team building), because if you are early - you can still adjust. But if you are late, you've missed an opportunity. If Year 3 Wemby is that Championship Centerpiece, but you've surrounded him with a non-championship caliber supporting cast, you've done him and the franchise a disservice. There is no recapturing that after the fact.


]I'm on the side that Wemby will be ready to contend as soon as next year[/B]. His improvement through the year, the brief apparitions of a rookie wall, how his body has handled the increased workload of an NBA season, how good he has been in the clutch, his competitiveness...

Wemby is the window, even modestly successful drafting and roster additions with solid Wemby health will have them in the play-in at least. I look at how this team has been in games and winning with Wemby minutes only for wrecks to explode everything else.

The team's winning is going to flip like climate change. Small changes like replacing scrubs and Wemby being Wemby without the rookie non-calls, without the rookie minutes limits .... And all those games that the Spurs were in respectably are going to flip like a runaway greenhouse effect and will not be survivable for most teams.


Wemby might well be ready to be a championship centrepiece earlier in his career than others were who won in year 7/8 of their careers. I know we crushed the Cavs in 07, but if LeBron had a better cast I think he was ready in year 4 - that, to me is the comparison point.

LeBron is an outlier success, and in terms of impact, probably is the closest to Wemby as a young rookie (Wemby's better, though older as a rookie, close enough) with a dominant path. If the Cavs did a better job building up the roster they might have been good enough to win if they got a break their way in the finals.

I think the Spurs should be thinking that Wemby is on that type of path, rather than a ready in year 8 path. I still think it's worth patience to build slowly (ish) with year 4 in mind, rather than thinking he's ready now. As good as he is, there are things to work on (Timing of taking early shots off the dribble, physical strength and ability to post up (see Holiday in the Denver game ), screen angles and slipping to take advantage of switches). Those little things will magnify his impact, move him up the total impact boards and make him a more championship ready piece as he'll have fewer holes to attack.

Slowly doesn't mean nothing, and if something comes up that means the Spurs can get an All NBA caliber player who fits, it's worth it to get the Shaq to Wemby's Wade. I don't see that as a realistic option - Curry, Luka, Shai, Hali, Brunson ain't moving, Mitchell might in FA (seems dumb to trade for him at his asset value, perfectly fine swinging on him as a FA target), then you get into more fringe guys who aren't at that all NBA level (to me, Trae isn't an All-NBA level player), where trading for them is more about an asset play than truly opening up a championship window.

See above.



Again, show me anyone here who expects Wemby to contend in year 3 ? Now can Wemby be the best player in the league in year 3? Yup, He could be in the MVP convo next year already. As pundits said, it took Victor half a season what takes other players 5 years to improve like he did.

Anyway, all your comparisons with GOAT players who played or stopped playing 20 years ago are pointless, specially in today's much more offensive NBA. We have NEVER seen somebody like Wemby in the NBA. Never. He's an alien.

- How many of the guys you named, were in the convo for defensive player of the year in their rookie season? Lebron or Bird never were once in their career, Wemby might be just that for the NEXT 12 YEARS IN A ROW.

- How many posted 5x5 in their rookie season? Only 13 players ( or so) had a 5x5 IN HISTORY. From all the players you named, only Olajuwon did. Jordan, Bird, Duncan, Lebron NEVER HAD ONE IN THEIR ENTIRE CAREER... WEMBY HAD ONE AND ALMOST BACK TO BACK 5x5 IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON....

Victor could post several quadruple doubles by next season already and has broken bunches ALL NBA HISTORY records (not just rookie records) in his rookie season.

We have never seen a player who can dominate and intimidate on both sides of the floor like that. Never. And bringing 20 years old comparisons is pointless, it's not becasue it happened like that with former GOATs that it will with Victor.

So what’s your point? Wemby is different and better than all these players and he’s NOT ready to contend by year 3?

[TD 21]

For those who subscribe to this . . .


AKA, PATFO are above reproach, know more about basketball than you ever will, 99% of the players in the league either suck or aren't good enough in some way to fit into the Spurs precious "culture" and if they're just patient, they'll either stumble into a perfect roster via the draft or will trade for Antetokounmpo or Doncic.

Say they go about it your preferred way, we get down the road a few years and they're in a similar spot, with Wembanyama growing impatient, then what?

[buttsR4rebounding]

OK Scott, but I meant a legit, regular poster, not that same guy who said spurs are in the play in next even they keep the same exact same roster... But if that the guy poeple were answering then, my bad...

Now saying this, if they can add another star and a couple elite role players in the next 2 years, that could be interesting since I believe Victor is an MVP candidate in year 3.

I am not advocating the Spurs make no moves. I would love to see them get Naz Reid for example. I am just saying that people are underestimating Wemby’s impact. Since the AS break when he is on the floor the Spurs are a playoff level team. His minutes will increase next year as will his effectiveness during those minutes. While most are trashing the 2022 draft picks they all will be entering their 3rd year when historically we seen a significant jump. If one of the 3 make that jump it will be huge. I think Sochan has shown a lot of flashes of excellence the past 20 games. Spending the summer working on his jumper instead of learning to be a PG will be extremely beneficial. Several others will benefit from having better defined roles as well.

[MaNu4Tres]

For those who subscribe to this . . .



Say they go about it your preferred way, we get down the road a few years and they're in a similar spot, with Wembanyama growing impatient, then what?

There will always be an opportunity to overpay for a fringe AS talent from a middle play in team if desperation is at an all time high. Spurs are far away from that.

[Pauleta14]

https://youtu.be/2SpRUbP9MEo?si=bqzFnlvcwxRTFzYs

[rankingtear]

Wemby is such a unique player, but as we have seen in Gobert , Giannis and AD you don't compromise defense in any position. You can easily get roped into thinking you can hide a major weak link or multiple ones because of how good they are on defense. We have to wait for that kind if co-star no matter what.

[TD 21]

There will always be an opportunity to overpay for a fringe AS talent from a middle play in team if desperation is at an all time high. Spurs are far away from that.

I don't know why this devolved into another discussion about Young when the whole point was essentially, who else?

To sum it up: I like the notion more conceptually than specifically, but would give it more consideration than I'd prefer because . . .

1) It stopped being a "normal" re-build when they got a GOAT caliber prospect.

2) For all the defensive concerns (of course, small guard would be far down the list if you could pick stars), he'd be a good fit offensively.

3) It's rare that things line up in terms of needs (role, age, having assets no one else can offer) with a potentially available star.

[JPB]

I don't know why this devolved into another discussion about Young when the whole point was essentially, who else?

To sum it up: I like the notion more conceptually than specifically, but would give it more consideration than I'd prefer because . . .

1) It stopped being a "normal" re-build when they got a GOAT caliber prospect.

2) For all the defensive concerns (of course, small guard would be far down the list if you could pick stars), he'd be a good fit offensively.

3) It's rare that things line up in terms of needs (role, age, having assets no one else can offer) with a potentially available star.

All good points.

you don't decide when the "right" star, in the right window, for the right price is available. It's pretty rare and they don't necessarily end up in your team.

Is Trae, the "right" star? Who is, I should answer to get back the topic? Trae certainly fits huge needs for this team and what he brings certainly overcome his flaws, speically if you complete the roster with the "right" role players who are easier to find. I mean sure, a Giannis or Tatum would be just fine but you probably won't get that kind of star, and do they actually fit with Wemby as your alpha?

Any potentially accessibe ones will come up with flaws and you have zero guarantee a Luka will be available down the road. And Dallas has been starting to get things going recently (which I didn't necessarily expect). How picky can you be with the stars you NEED to add to your team? Specially when you're SA, Wemby or not. Do you entirely bet on getting your star via the draft, which means another 4-5 years of "developing" before starting to get relevant? What if you don't (and chances are you won't)?

You souldn't take luck or you good star for granted, nor judge your quality as a organisation withtout taking it into consideration. How competent spurs organisation would be considered if they didn't luck into DRob or Duncan? That obviously changes a lot of things on how you're perceived, and that's the same for Pop who didn't look that good when there was suddenly no MVP or HOFer caliber player in their prime and a contending roster around.

Spurs should be careful of not being overconfident or trusting their program too much. Buidling though the draft, that's for a big part building on luck. Where would that franchise and program be if spurs picked 3 or 4 last year? In pretty bad shape. So yeah, maybe don't be too picky or beleive that patience will necessarily will bring you where you'd like to be.

[jesterbobman]

I think the ideal roster around Wemby (fully evolved) is:
Aggressive PG with off the dribble 3 ability primary (Trae, Ant Simons), really as the thing that makes the PnR soar.
Secondary / tertiary creator 2 / 3 (e.g Vassell)
3&D + wing (Better Champagnie - probably want one of the two guys on the wing to be a real off movement shooting threat to open up weak side actions and occupy help)
Rebounding / secondary rim protection PF / second big (Isaac?)

Plenty of debate with that, as you could opt against the heliocentric / always in Trae's hands offence to be more shared responsibility, and move to something like Derrick White /Franz Wagner.

Trae is a good fit in one version of the lineup.

The other debate about Trae is if he's good enough as a second star. He (and Simmons' lack of confidence at making a layup / attempting FTs) got the Hawks to the ECF, and he's a wonderful offensive player. The question is if he's too limited against the mega wings who'll matchup hunt in the playoffs that his defense is a major limiting factor, and that his overall impact might be worth a lot less than the package it would (seemingly ) take to get him.
I think he's a bit overrated (more top 30-40 player than top 20) I'm concerned that the crackdown on foul-hunting methods will limit him, and think the likely package (Atlanta picks back + stuff (Keldon, Chicago pick)) to get him is an overpay.

Won't be a perfect star, but there should be future opportunities in FA or the trade market to get a good fit at a good price, and the assets that aren't used can upgrade other positions.