Does Jokic still have the ability to reach Timmy Duncan career level influence?

[MultiTroll]

Or did this game 7 just take a huge step backwards in terms of legacy for Joker?

Previously on Spurstalk.com, we discussed whether or not Greek Freak had reached "Early" Tim Dunkar level influence after his 2021 Championship and legit MVP level performance. Wow, that turned out to be a solid No since 2021. Voting at the time 2022 had a little over half thinking Greek had not even reached Early Duncan level, but about half thought he did. The poll was just before the 2022 Playoffs.
Has Greek Freak approached early Timmy Duncan level? (spurstalk.com) (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299813)

Joker. I was playing poker so had a distracted view of the game, but from what i saw Joker looked gassed in the 2nd half but still put up a couple huge treys in the stretch run for a comeback attempt. Oof 0-8 on the rest of Jokers treys. I look fwd to reading all your takes. Rob has already said it looked like the Nuggets "quit", as far back as the 2nd qtr.
Not gonna lie, i also got a vibe like they were quitting on purpose. WTH was that?

As to being gassed, also what is up with that? Game is in Denver, you know the Mile High city where host purportedly have a huge advantage because they are used to breathing Mile High air? Hmmn have NBA opponents leveled the field on the oxygen intake?

Back to Joker, in Game 7
34/19/7 with a team high 47 minutes.
Pretty damn good. We saw Timmy Dunker get F'd out of game and Finals winning performances by a bird brained coach (2006 and 2013) and Ginobilis hero ball 06 and then temp Alzheimer's '13. Which makes Duncans 5 legit Championships all the more impressive imo.

So maybe Joker did all he could to win 2024s game 7? Surrounding cast and coach were inadequate?

Where does Joker go from here?
Doe he get a better cast and win more Chips?
Or was that it? 1 and done for Jokers career. Okay mmmaybe 2 but no way he's getting 5 and matching Player of His Generation Timmy Duncan. Tall order, indeed.

[Robz4000]

He can still surpass Timmy. Every all-time great has had some tough playoff losses tbh.

[Texas_Ranger]

sure, if he gets into an all defensive team the next 10 seasons in a row.... At least Tim had to face great players at his position. Jokic faces like 2 per season.

[Ice009]

Darn, I was going to watch the game, but the thread title gave me a spoiler. Oh well. Tough loss for Jokic. I thought for sure they'd win game 7 at home. I didn't expect him to be bounced this early. He's a great player, but it kind of bothers me that guys like Giannis, and now the Joker get elevated above TD and TD is never even mentioned.

Jokic is darn good (great), but as I said with Giannis, he has a long, long way to go, but also, the comparison with Joker can't forget the defensive side of the ball. TD was GREAT on both ends of the court, Nikola, not so much.

I wonder if TD watched the game, as I remember in an interview (not sure if it was the RJ one or a different one?) where he said that Jokic was his favourite player to watch. At least he has TD's backing.

I was actually thinking of 2006 upon reading your thread title as I was saying that Tim's never lost a game 7 at home, but then remembered 2006 :(. He did all he could that game. Manu should not have fouled. I didn't watch this game, but looking at the stats you put up, did Joker do all he could?

[spursparker9]

His game and stats have already well exceed Timmy tbh.

If he has 4 rings as well then Timmy will be surely ranked below him.

[Ignazzz]

Can You Imagine: jokic didnt win PO series with +50 wins team. Never.

[TDMVPDPOY]

blowing a 20pt lead in a elimination game, thats just lame...just lame as hero ball antics that costs spurs rings also

[Ice009]

Can You Imagine: jokic didnt win PO series with +50 wins team. Never.

What do you mean by this? Are you talking about one of the years the Spurs lost with a 50+ win team in the first round?


blowing a 20pt lead in a elimination game, thats just lame...just lame as hero ball antics that costs spurs rings also

Who are you referring to here? Were the Nuggets up 20pts in last night's game?
What are the hero ball antics you're referring to that cost Spurs rings? Are you talking about TP, Manu or someone else?


His game and stats have already well exceed Timmy tbh.

If he has 4 rings as well then Timmy will be surely ranked below him.

Yeah, that's all great IF he get to at least 4 rings. Tim also played in a different system. Even if Joker has better stats on offense, why are people forgetting TD was also a DPOY level player for most of his career. He anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. Jokic will never get to that level defensively. Can him being better on offense wipe out how much better Tim was on defense? TD anchored both the offense and defense. That's pretty freaking great. I just don't get why Tim is not mentioned much (he was never boring for me to watch ever). It sucks not ever hearing him mentioned with all those greats that weren't as good as him, but they get brought up all the time in conversation.

[daslicer]

He's 29 and Duncan had 3 titles when he was 29. It will definitely be hard for him to catch Duncan. He needed to win this year to have a shot at it. I would also say defensively he's nowhere near Duncan. Prime Duncan would have been able to easily shut down KAT, and Naz Reid defensively. I say this as someone who wanted to see him win last night.

[z0sa]

He's outdone Timmy on MVPs, but he'll never catch him in rings. That said, I think this is apples to oranges, considering their respective draft positions. Jokic even pulling even an MVP out, much less being The Guy on a title team, has to be winning-the-powerball odds.

One thing I do think is similar is that Jokic isn't going to appreciably drop off into his mid 30s, much like Timmy (always barring injuries). That will leave Denver's window open for a while -- hoping Wemby and Jokic have at least one duel for the ages while Joker's in his prime.

[Brazil]

:lol this loss and the serie are not on Jokic, not sure what more you can ask from him. It changes absolutely nothing on Jokic actual and future legacy... he is not going to win every year and he is still young.

Comparaisons with Tim are way too soon anyway

[daslicer]

He's outdone Timmy on MVPs, but he'll never catch him in rings. That said, I think this is apples to oranges, considering their respective draft positions. Jokic even pulling even an MVP out, much less being The Guy on a title team, has to be winning-the-powerball odds.

One thing I do think is similar is that Jokic isn't going to appreciably drop off into his mid 30s, much like Timmy (always barring injuries). That will leave Denver's window open for a while -- hoping Wemby and Jokic have at least one duel for the ages while Joker's in his prime.

I don't think he will ever win another MVP again. The media has pretty much made sure this will be his last MVP after what happened yesterday. He edges out Tim with the league MVP 3-2, but Tim will most likely still edge him out in rings and Finals MVPS. I don't think if things hold up, he will have enough to pass Tim resume wise.

[daslicer]

:lol this loss and the serie are not on Jokic, not sure what more you can ask from him. It changes absolutely nothing on Jokic actual and future legacy... he is not going to win every year and he is still young.

Comparaisons with Tim are way too soon anyway

Long term it could affect his legacy in the sense of being short of rings. Every year that you have opportunity to win a title and you don't is a lost year. For example, in Tim's career I would say '04, '06, '13 were all lost years. If he somehow got a title in any of those years, the way people look at him today would be different since he would have 6 rings or more. Legacy wise that would have been a huge boost for him.

[CorrectCrusader]

His game and stats have already well exceed Timmy tbh.

If he has 4 rings as well then Timmy will be surely ranked below him.

Dumb, different era

[z0sa]

I don't think he will ever win another MVP again. The media has pretty much made sure this will be his last MVP after what happened yesterday. He edges out Tim with the league MVP 3-2, but Tim will most likely still edge him out in rings and Finals MVPS. I don't think if things hold up, he will have enough to pass Tim resume wise.

I think you're right, but it is two different types of resume. One was a 2nd rounder who is one of the biggest stat stuffers there ever was, while the other was a #1 choice who was expected to win rings from the beginning. Every ring Jokic secures is worth about 1.25 or 1.5 of Timmy's, I'd say, trying very hard to be objective. Subjectively, though, I don't think the two are even close. Timmy is certainly the more competent defender, and definitely more athletic 2001 and back. In today's NBA, I think he'd be reasonably close stat stuffing and I think he'd also have extended his range to the 3pt line. It's an era thing, now, which makes me feel old.

[Brazil]

Long term it could affect his legacy in the sense of being short of rings. Every year that you have opportunity to win a title and you don't is a lost year. For example, in Tim's career I would say '04, '06, '13 were all lost years. If he somehow got a title in any of those years, the way people look at him today would be different since he would have 6 rings or more. Legacy wise that would have been a huge boost for him.

I agree with the "could" but Tim won his last ring at 38 y/o and was still the best player of the run. Jokic game is aging well, he still has a lot of years in front of him, so it is clearly too soon to conclude. One thing is for sure is that at 29 Tim already had 3 rings.

Also I don't know if Jokic will still play at 38 for instance and I don't think he cares a lot about legacy anyway

[KobesAchilles]

5 rings is an impossible as for any al-time great. There's only been 5 all-time players to do it since the merger. Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, and Tim. That's the list. So no Jokic will not catch him in titles. However, I believe that he will be considered the greatest offensive bigman to ever play the game. No other center come close to his offensive talent

[MultiTroll]

Spurs notes. Get a competent backup for Wemby.
Joker looked gassed.

[Texas_Ranger]

Can You Imagine: jokic didnt win PO series with +50 wins team. Never.

lol, had to check it out. and yea he has no wins vs a 50W team in the playoffs... pretty pathetic.

[Mikeanaro]

This is so stupid, Duncan had a very tough era, Joker on the other hand has a weak pussy ass era and cant even make it to the Finals.
Now if Boston cant win it all this year, they need to kill themselves or play chess because they are a failure.

[daslicer]

This is so stupid, Duncan had a very tough era, Joker on the other hand has a weak pussy ass era and cant even make it to the Finals.
Now if Boston cant win it all this year, they need to kill themselves or play chess because they are a failure.

I have to agree as good as the Wolves are Anthony Edwards is not on the level of Kobe, Shaq, Dirk who were constant foils Duncan had to deal with in the West.

[Texas_Ranger]

This is so stupid, Duncan had a very tough era, Joker on the other hand has a weak pussy ass era and cant even make it to the Finals.
Now if Boston cant win it all this year, they need to kill themselves or play chess because they are a failure.

the era is guard heavy... The only other great center in the league is Embiid and those two will never face eachother in the finals... Tim actually had to face and guard other great players at his position.

[poopbox]

There has never been a point in time where Jokic has been in the same galaxy as Timmy.

Timmy will end up having more all nba 1st team selections than Jokic will have all nba selections period :rollin

[Ice009]

the era is guard heavy... The only other great center in the league is Embiid and those two will never face eachother in the finals... Tim actually had to face and guard other great players at his position.

I don't really want to talk any crap about Jokic as he's a great player, but I wonder how he would have went against the 2005 Detroit Pistons frontline that Tim had to take on that series with two injured ankles by the time the time the finals started. I still think Game 7 was an amazing show of leadership and bringing/willing his home against the frontline in the second half of that game getting their bigs in foul trouble (Manu was great too that series, but it was dual finals MVP at best IMO. He wasn't sole MVP over TD). That Pistons frontline was one of the best (apart from the Spurs themselves, but the Spurs couldn't play themselves in the finals), and Tim really willed us to that win. I don't know the state of his ankles by the end of the playoffs, but going into them, his missed the end of the regular season and I was very worried going into the playoffs (I thought he might not even play). He then injured his good ankle against Seattle towards the end of game 6 in Seattle where the crowd cheered, and I think he hit the game winner/go ahead basket to win that games/series. Robert Horry did bail out Tim a little bit in game 5, but I wonder what state TD's ankles were going into that series (I don't know if the one he injured before the playoffs had healed fully by that point). I don't think he was fully healthy at all.

I remember TD really took it to them in the first regular season meeting between the two teams when he was healthier/not carrying any injuries. I can't remember who it was on, but I think he dunked it on Ben Wallace and then after the game said something like, if we have to go through them to win the Championship, then that's who we're going to go through. I just haven't forgotten how hard he battled it out. He still took us home in a pressure packed game 7 against a Detroit team that would have been full of confidence after winning game 6 on the Spurs' home floor. Basically, injured or not, TD really tried to step up all the time, and most of the time he did. He also had the plantar fasciitis in the 2006 season and was IMO the best player in those playoffs despite losing to Dallas in a BS series filled with BS calls. TD was great both of those seasons, but wasn't fully healthy for large parts of both seasons.

[itzsoweezee]

Denver’s roster is pretty stuck. I don’t see how they improve much. The wolves could be even better next year. So I think we saw the nuggets at their peak last year.

Jokic will still be great, but he’ll never be on Duncan’s level. That’s nothing to be ashamed of. There are only 10 or so players in NBA history on Duncan’s level.

[Dex]

His game and stats have already well exceed Timmy tbh.

If he has 4 rings as well then Timmy will be surely ranked below him.

Tim has 5 rings over three decades, and more accolades to boast (All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defense, ROY, etc)

Jokic has 1 ring so far. Stat-wise, you can say Jokic is the better passer but worse defender.

This really shouldn't even be a topic of conversation until Jokic hits 4 rings, at least.

[Ice009]

Tim has 5 rings over three decades, and more accolades to boast (All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defense, ROY, etc)

Jokic has 1 ring so far. Stat-wise, you can say Jokic is the better passer but worse defender.

This really shouldn't even be a topic of conversation until Jokic hits 4 rings, at least.

Yeah, all solid points. I agree.

I will add, I just hope one day Victor is in this conversation. The kid has a chance to be that great. I really do believe in him.

And one other thing, I don't follow Jokic closely enough at all, but does he actually work as hard on his game as some of the greats did? It kind of bothers me with some of the stories I heard in past off-seasons that he drinks beer and does his cart horse racing or whatever you call it (I have no problem with him doing this if he's still working hard on his basketball skills), I feel to be the best, you really have to push yourself to the edge/limit. If he doesn't (again, I don't know his work ethic), I kind of feel like he's cheating if he's just going out there and playing carefree and doing all this. I just can't fathom that if that is what he's doing.

[LeBowen]

And one other thing, I don't follow Jokic closely enough at all, but does he actually work as hard on his game as some of the greats did? It kind of bothers me with some of the stories I heard in past off-seasons that he drinks beer and does his cart horse racing or whatever you call it (I have no problem with him doing this if he's still working hard on his basketball skills), I feel to be the best, you really have to push yourself to the edge/limit. If he doesn't (again, I don't know his work ethic), I kind of feel like he's cheating if he's just going out there and playing carefree and doing all this. I just can't fathom that if that is what he's doing.

That's just mainstream media nonsense because Jokic is the closest thing to Timmy if we talk personality. They can't digest that the best player in the league is someone who gives zero fucks about what anyone thinks.
Just look at his minutes and usage, he's one of the most durable players in the league.
This season his front office and role players let him down. He was supposed to do literally everything on offense, but he's not a perimeter player that could get some rest on defense, got gassed and it was just too much.
Not a great defender, but he'd be solid if he didn't have such high usage on offense.

For me he's one of the best offensive players ever because he can do everything and gets his elite playmaking numbers without needing to pound the ball for 10 seconds every possession. He's got a similar number of touches to other MVP candidates, but like half the time on the ball. Timberwolves built a roster to counter the Nuggets while Nuggets had Deandre's corpse as the only backup big, just inexcusable.

With that being said, he's not close to Duncan.

[SPURt]

Denver’s roster is pretty stuck. I don’t see how they improve much. The wolves could be even better next year. So I think we saw the nuggets at their peak last year.

Jokic will still be great, but he’ll never be on Duncan’s level. That’s nothing to be ashamed of. There are only 10 or so players in NBA history on Duncan’s level.
This right here

[MultiTroll]

Tim has 5 rings over three decades, and more accolades to boast (All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defense, ROY, etc)

Jokic has 1 ring so far. Stat-wise, you can say Jokic is the better passer but worse defender.

This really shouldn't even be a topic of conversation until Jokic hits 4 rings, at least.
Has Jokic had teamates the equal of Manu GNob, Parker, Kwa Leonard and role players like Super Bob Horry?
All on the same team?
I don't think so.

[ismael-robert]

I'm curious what a healthy Vlatco Cankar can bring

[MultiTroll]

I'm curious what a healthy Vlatco Cankar can bring
Nice find.
I didn't even notice Vlatco last season.
60 games 15 min per game.

[TD 21]

Flawed premise. If you believe he had it beforehand, one game at age 29 shouldn't change anything.

He's got a decent chance to finish around Duncan, but he's going to need at least one more championship and probably two.

Stat geeks will probably favor him in the end anyway, but a lot of players in this era have inflated stats (counting and advanced) due to a game and rules that now prioritize and cater to it (for sure, players are more skilled in general too), unlike previous generations.

I'll always give the edge to Duncan though because if all else is close enough, I prefer my center by an elite defensive anchor first and foremost.

[Ice009]

That's just mainstream media nonsense because Jokic is the closest thing to Timmy if we talk personality. They can't digest that the best player in the league is someone who gives zero fucks about what anyone thinks.
Just look at his minutes and usage, he's one of the most durable players in the league.
This season his front office and role players let him down. He was supposed to do literally everything on offense, but he's not a perimeter player that could get some rest on defense, got gassed and it was just too much.
Not a great defender, but he'd be solid if he didn't have such high usage on offense.

For me he's one of the best offensive players ever because he can do everything and gets his elite playmaking numbers without needing to pound the ball for 10 seconds every possession. He's got a similar number of touches to other MVP candidates, but like half the time on the ball. Timberwolves built a roster to counter the Nuggets while Nuggets had Deandre's corpse as the only backup big, just inexcusable.

With that being said, he's not close to Duncan.

Yeah, you could be right. It's just the stories about his off-season, I don't hear much about him training/working on his game that has my opinion skewed a bit.

Like TD21 said, if all else is close, I still prefer my big man to be an elite defender over an elite offensive player. I'd take TDs great defense defense along with his very good offense compared to Jokic's great offense and average defense.

Both great players. It's too bad there's not many elite big men around so we can actually see what kind of defense Jokic could play if he had to focus on guarding other great big men (centers and power forwards) like TD did.

[Tyronn Lue]

This again. Players aren't chasing each other. They are all carving out their own legacies. The faces on Rushmore aren't in competition. Tim isn't in competition with Joker.

[Tyronn Lue]

Has Jokic had teamates the equal of Manu GNob, Parker, Kwa Leonard and role players like Super Bob Horry?
All on the same team?
I don't think so.
Players build their resumes in synch with the development of all time greats. When it's all said and done, some of the players on Denver's team could be HOFers that are currently not in that conversation. When that happens, people will use that to detract from Jokic's greatness "well he had other HOFers with him".

[MultiTroll]

Has Jokic had teamates the equal of Manu GNob, Parker, Kwa Leonard and role players like Super Bob Horry?
All on the same team?
I don't think so.


Players build their resumes in synch with the development of all time greats. When it's all said and done, some of the players on Denver's team could be HOFers that are currently not in that conversation. When that happens, people will use that to detract from Jokic's greatness "well he had other HOFers with him".
Nooo.
Bob Horry had already sank clutch Championship shots for Houston and the Flamers.
Kwa Leonard went on to lead Toronto to a Chip. (with plenty of great mentoring prior from Duncan and the Spurs).
GNob i believe would have been a multi year legit All Star on any team, including potential Chip teams.
Parker maybe not soo much but still All Star potential for sure.

If some of Denvers current support team reaches the above Spurs level well great. I don't see it happening. Jomal Murray off to a good start.

Duncan still light years ahead of Joker.

[Mr. Body]

With the new CBA, keeping teams together will become extremely hard. I think we're just now seeing how difficult it will be. Boston, Minny, all these teams are going to face cold hard reality in a year or so. Making it worse, moving expensive players will be even harder. Used to be you could push an expensive contract onto a bad team with cap room, but teams will become more wary of doing this.

[OldMan88]

No comparison to Duncan. Tim played & won championships across 3 eras of NBA basketball when every time the Spurs won, the NBA changed the rules to take away whatever advantage the Spurs exploited to win. Yet he was able to adapt his game to remain dominant even though his body was failing him. He had 2 great wingmen and some great role players along the way. Tim’s game was more balanced than Jokic’s, and Jokic seems to follow Babe Ruth’s training regimen.

[Pero]

Yeah, all solid points. I agree.

I will add, I just hope one day Victor is in this conversation. The kid has a chance to be that great. I really do believe in him.

And one other thing, I don't follow Jokic closely enough at all, but does he actually work as hard on his game as some of the greats did? It kind of bothers me with some of the stories I heard in past off-seasons that he drinks beer and does his cart horse racing or whatever you call it (I have no problem with him doing this if he's still working hard on his basketball skills), I feel to be the best, you really have to push yourself to the edge/limit. If he doesn't (again, I don't know his work ethic), I kind of feel like he's cheating if he's just going out there and playing carefree and doing all this. I just can't fathom that if that is what he's doing.

I don't understand what you're saying. Dude just got his 3rd MVP, what does it matter if he works out or not, if he's that good? How is that cheating? That's kind of like saying Wembanyama is cheating because he's 7' 4'' tall. He didn't have to work for it after all. Unless you were joking or something haha.

[Thomas82]

No comparison to Duncan. Tim played & won championships across 3 eras of NBA basketball when every time the Spurs won, the NBA changed the rules to take away whatever advantage the Spurs exploited to win. Yet he was able to adapt his game to remain dominant even though his body was failing him. He had 2 great wingmen and some great role players along the way. Tim’s game was more balanced than Jokic’s, and Jokic seems to follow Babe Ruth’s training regimen.

Cosign!!

[Ice009]

I don't understand what you're saying. Dude just got his 3rd MVP, what does it matter if he works out or not, if he's that good? How is that cheating? That's kind of like saying Wembanyama is cheating because he's 7' 4'' tall. He didn't have to work for it after all. Unless you were joking or something haha.

Well half and half. I always absolutely believed to be the best, you have to work your ass off. If he doesn't, I find it hard to believe (can't fathom it) he's able to be as good as he is. Tim, Kobe, MJ, Lebron, all of these guys worked their asses off. If Jokic isn't, I'm sort of saying I'm amazed that he's able to what he's doing out there. I've never seen anyone not put in a shit ton of work and rack up MVPs. It's crazy is what I'm saying. To be that good and not put in the work to get there, it feels like cheating. Having said that, since I don't follow him, I wanted to know if those stories don't tell the whole story. Yeah, he might do the cart horse racing (I don't know the correct term/name for this) and drink beer, but he also might actually spend a decent amount of time working on his game, so I was curious if anyone has read that he does actually put the work in while doing those other activities, or at some point later in the off-season, maybe he starts training his ass off?

[Pero]

Well half and half. I always absolutely believed to be the best, you have to work your ass off. If he doesn't, I find it hard to believe (can't fathom it) he's able to be as good as he is. Tim, Kobe, MJ, Lebron, all of these guys worked their asses off. If Jokic isn't, I'm sort of saying I'm amazed that he's able to what he's doing out there. I've never seen anyone not put in a shit ton of work and rack up MVPs. It's crazy is what I'm saying. To be that good and not put in the work to get there, it feels like cheating. Having said that, since I don't follow him, I wanted to know if those stories don't tell the whole story. Yeah, he might do the cart horse racing (I don't know the correct term/name for this) and drink beer, but he also might actually spend a decent amount of time working on his game, so I was curious if anyone has read that he does actually put the work in while doing those other activities, or at some point later in the off-season, maybe he starts training his ass off?

Maybe I'm getting you better now. I still think it shouldn't matter haha. IIRC he wasn't taking training seriously till the off-season before the season he got his first MVP. I can't remember why but something clicked in his head that time and he decided he has to become more serious about it, so he trained a lot, lost weight and got himself in great shape... Then ended up becoming the MVP. Pretty sure he's taking it seriously now, though I really doubt he's anything close to a training maniac like Kobe. Dude is probably just one of the most talented players in history. Oh yeah, years back I saw a clip of Inside The NBA on TNT where they were asking him how come he's getting to games in suits now and he said that at some point it hit him that this is his job and so he should act like it, be professional, show that he's taking it seriously and get himself in the mindset as well. But it's clear baskteball is just one part of his life to him and not everything.