Let’s say PG, SG, and C positions are set. If you could wish for any SF or PF to be disgruntled and ask for a trade, who would be worth giving everything up for?

[Dejounte]

https://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

https://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf

Who from these lists is worth giving up all our valuable picks for?

Obviously, that player would be within six years of Wemby’s age so that they’re not way out of his timeline. What else? Which star or upcoming SF/ PF star would be the best fit next to Wemby, Castle, and Vassell (the hypothetical here is that all three of these players hit and are untouchable).

[DAF86]

Brown and Tatum.

[Degoat]

It’s hard a question tbh, I know it’s hypothetical but there aren’t that many Elite SF/PF on the wemby timeline worth trading for.

I guess Tatum or Bachero but I don’t love the fit lol

[scott]

https://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf

https://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf

Who from these lists is worth giving up all our valuable picks for?

Obviously, that player would be within six years of Wemby’s age so that they’re not way out of his timeline. What else? Which star or upcoming SF/ PF star would be the best fit next to Wemby, Castle, and Vassell (the hypothetical here is that all three of these players hit and are untouchable).

My PF answer is going to contain one very obvious, convenient choice... but I promise he'd be on there regardless.

Here is the PF list (not in order of preference)

Chet
Lauri
Jalen Williams
JJJ
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Paolo but I'm not sure he is really a fit
Jabari Smith Jr

SF:

Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Keegan
Scottie

The size of the load I'm willing to blow on these guys varies.

Edit: I went a little beyond the scope of the question. Some of these guys I'd give minor loads for. I bolded the guys I'd give a big load for.

[SpursBills]

Chet Holmgren

[Dejounte]

My PF answer is going to contain one very obvious, convenient choice... but I promise he'd be on there regardless.

Here is the PF list (not in order of preference)

Chet
Lauri
Jalen Williams
JJJ
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Paolo but I'm not sure he is really a fit
Jabari Smith Jr

SF:

Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Keegan
Scottie

The size of the load I'm willing to blow on these guys varies.

Edit: I went a little beyond the scope of the question. Some of these guys I'd give minor loads for. I bolded the guys I'd give a big load for.

Now do a parody of Mr Body and tell us how each of those players are trash :lmao

“… Chet is just another Luis Scola, you fucking idiots!”
”… Scottie Barnes shoots like my grandma. Why the fuck would you give up a first rounder for that guy! I would only give up a second rounder, max.”

[NASpurs]

Now do a parody of Mr Body and tell us how each of those players are trash :lmao

“… Chet is just another Luis Scola, you fucking idiots!”
”… Scottie Barnes shoots like my grandma. Why the fuck would you give up a first rounder for that guy! I would only give up a second rounder, max.”

And once those players wear a Spurs jersey, he'll defend them to the death while telling you to kill yourself for criticizing them :lol

[R. DeMurre]

Chet or a Herb Jones/Trey Murphy lll combo

[CGD]

Jarabi Smith Jr. and Trey Murphy at the wings.

[rankingtear]

Jabari surprisingly has weak off ball gravity and not a good star complement.

[Degoat]

Evan Mobley maybe?

[Raven]

donut is the only target.

[Robz4000]

donut is the only target.

Pretty much tbh, unless Jokic somehow becomes available.

[John B]

Doncic and Markkanen/JJJ

[mudyez]

I still like Franz Wagner and I think he will find his shooting stroke again, but even for him, I would not give up more than CHA+CHI+BOS+ one of our own that is later than '26.

[LeBowen]

Wrote about limited options already, but let's go in depth a bit.
To start off, my personal preference is having a max contract wing next to Wemby instead of a max contract guard, I just see elite wings as way more valuable pieces on championship teams.
And we hopefully got our guards in Castle and Devin.

As for the wings market, Markkanen is literally the best fit and opportunity that will present itself in the next few years, future rookies obviously not included.
And on this list I'll be focusing on wings with all-star potential, there are plenty of them who'd be good role player additions, but so few realistic all-star targets.

Dallas Mavericks:
Them crumbling isn't out of question in a few years, but Spurs are the last place Cuban would trade Luka to. And at that point we won't have many picks.
PJ Washington is just a solid role player.

Denver Nuggets:
MPJ is already on a max contract and isn't worth it. I actually wouldn't mind him here if Denver decides to get out of cap hell by trading him.
Gordon isn't what Wemby needs due to his subpar shooting ability.

Golden State Warriors:
Wiggins is washed already.
Moody is nothing special.
Kuminga looks to be a good player in the making, but he's not a shooter.

Houston Rockets:
A team that will be interesting to follow just for their quantity of wings.
Amen isn't someone we'd be interested in due to his lack of shooting ability.
Brooks could be a useful veteran, but is just a subpar 3pt shooter and a great defender.
Whitmore has potential and is a good archetype.
Eason could be a decent role player.
Jabari Smith Jr looks to be the best of the bunch and the most interesting one. No way Spurs could get him.

Los Angeles Clippers:
Nephew is done.
DJJ is a solid pick up for them, but just a role player.

Los Angeles Lakers:
Lebron is turning 40.
Hachimura could be a decent rotation option, nothing special.

Memphis Grizzlies:
Bane would be a great fit, but they're not trading him anytime soon.
JJJ would also be a good fit, but they're not trading him, either.
GG Jackson showed a lot of potential this season, we'll see how he develops.

Minnesota Timberwolves:
McDaniels is a good 3-D wing in the making.
Naz Reid looks like a perfect non all-star partner for Wemby.
Will be interesting which one they keep after this season, they can't pay and keep everyone. Or they trade KAT.

New Orleans Pelicans:
Trey Murhpy III looks to be a very good wing in the making, we'll see if he can take the next step and become something more than a role player.
Herb Jones is maybe the best value contract in the league, but he's just a 3-D role player, not someone who moves the needle on a bad team.
Ingram is a ball-stoper, low-effort player who's not suited for winning basketball.

Oklahoma City Thunder:
Jalen Williams is obviously the player we could've and should've drafted, but we'll never get him.
Dort is a great defender and a decent enough 3pt shooter, good role player.
Chet is a F/C hybrid who will probably be a human version of Wemby.

Phoenix Suns:
KD is turning 36 this year, maybe we see him take the hardest road in '26 and joins Wemby as a free agent.

Portland Trailblazers:
Jerami Grant would be interesting, but his contract is a big no for our timeline.

Sacramento Kings:
Keegan Murray is supposedly not available in Lauri talks. Would be a good player for us.
Harrison Barnes is a solid veteran we should try for if Kings look to dump him and we don't get Markkanen.

Utah Jazz:
Markkanen is obviously the perfect option for so many reasons.

Atlanta Hawks:
Jalen Johnson looks to be a good wing in the making.
Risacher just got drafted, unknown.
Deandre Hunter could be a solid role player option.

Boston Celtics:
Tatum and Brown are obviously franchise players for them, pointless to talk about.
If they ever become available, they'll be old and on massive contracts.

Brooklyn Nets:
Cam Johnson and DFS would be interesting role player options, not worth the asking price, most likely.

Charloette Hornets:
Brandon Miller looks like he's going to be an all-star wing. With Hornets being permanently awful, he might just become available...in like 4 years.
Salaun is an unknown, we'll see how he does.
Miles Bridges is a criminal.

Chicago Bulls:
Patrick Williams didn't live up to the expectations.

Cleveland Cavaliers:
Strus is their only wing worth mentioning and he's 6'5.
Okoro is still FA, but his shot is unreliable.

Detroit Pistons:
They're collecting those non-shooting wings like there's no tomorrow.

Indiana Pacers:
Siakam is a great player, but not that good of a fit with Wemby.
Mathurin looks to be a good wing in the making, but he's kind of undersized for a wing, better as a guard.

Miami Heat:
Jimmy is old and just causes trouble.

Milwaukee Bucks:
Giannis might ask after a few more bad seasons, but he'll be well into his 30s and they'll still want a haul.
Middleton is also getting too old.

New York Knicks:
Looks like they got all the elite role-player wings. Not much to say, none will be available.
I really rate OG if he can stay healthy.

Orlando Magic:
Banchero is on his way to stardom, no way they're moving him for at least 5 more years.
Wagner also looks to be a great player in the making, but he can't shoot.

Philadelphia 76ers:
PG is old and not worth the contract they gave him.

Toronto Raptors:
Barnes has a lot of potential, but that deal is already huge. Their franchise player.

Washington Wizards:
We'll see how Coulibaly and Sarr develop, too early to tell.
Kuzma would be a decent rotation player.


With that said, here's my list of younger wings I'd love to see play with Wemby and have potential to be more than just your avarege 3-D role players:
Jabari Smith Jr
Jaren Jackson Jr
Desmond Bane
Naz Reid
Trey Murphy III
Jalen Williams
Keegan Murray
Lauri Markkanen
Jalen Johnson
Brandon Miller
OG Anunoby
Mikal Bridges
Paolo Banchero
Scottie Barnes

Player on that list who might become available for 5 FRPs or less within the next 3 years:
Naz Reid
Lauri Markkanen

I could've missed someone, but I just don't see any high level wings under 28 becoming available anytime soon for anything less than Ainge wants for Markkanen.
Even if we talk about older wings hitting FA, there isn't any who won't be well into their 30s.

Our options are to get Markkanen, wait for Minnesota cap hell to play out next summer or to find an all-star wing in the draft.
Because none of those players I have on my shortlist are going to become available anytime soon for anything less than the biggest package we've seen in a while.

The next time you say no to Markkanen, look around the league and try to find some realistic targets who fit the timeline, have the right skillset and wouldn't gut our picks stash.
If you're still going with the draft around Wemby path, then get ready for some more mediocre choices by Brian Wright while Wemby becomes modern-day KG, held hostage by an incompetent franchise.

[heyheymymy]

Nice work LeBowen that's a solid list

Always appreciate your insightful write-ups

[Sugus]

I could've missed someone, but I just don't see any high level wings under 28 becoming available anytime soon for anything less than Ainge wants for Markkanen.
Even if we talk about older wings hitting FA, there isn't any who won't be well into their 30s.

Our options are to get Markkanen, wait for Minnesota cap hell to play out next summer or to find an all-star wing in the draft.
Because none of those players I have on my shortlist are going to become available anytime soon for anything less than the biggest package we've seen in a while.

The next time you say no to Markkanen, look around the league and try to find some realistic targets who fit the timeline, have the right skillset and wouldn't gut our picks stash.
If you're still going with the draft around Wemby path, then get ready for some more mediocre choices by Brian Wright while Wemby becomes modern-day KG, held hostage by an incompetent franchise.

Appreciate the post and insight into other teams' situations.

However, recent history and particularly the fluctuating nature of the modern NBA and team/star player relationships make me hesitant to agree to such a fixed, binary landscape outlook. While all of these teams' great players are thought of as "untouchables" and "no way they're traded" right now, the fact remains that at least one of those players is traded or asks out every year. Kawhi was once an "untouchable, he's their franchise" player on a list like yours, TBH, and we all know how that went.

Secondly, we've seen this summer the first effects of the new CBA, and I predict they will hit the currently-contending teams very hard in the next 2-3 years. Already the Clippers preferred to lose PG and perhaps give an effective close to their contending window, over going to the second apron. No doubt other asset-strapped teams, like Milwaukee, will follow suit in short time.

Lastly, I know bashing the FO's decision is common coin in ST, but on the drafting point - what's the problem with Castle, tbh? (he's a Wright pick to boot). You repeatedly hear about this "terrible drafting" by the Spurs as of late, but they've hit on as many players as they've missed, like most teams do, and many of their recent picks play high-level roles (White obviously, Dejounte as well, and our own established players). The Spurs FO might've lost the "international edge" they once had, but they're far from a bottom-tier drafting team, and I've yet to see any real evidence to the contrary as opposed to other teams' drafting output.

I say all this, to propose a fourth option: make minor, one or two-year deals, keep the pick stash, and be ready to pounce at the opportunity. As the old saying goes, you will know the opportunity when it presents itself; it's not something that can be mapped out or predicted (depends on the situation obviously).

In particular, I'm looking real, real good at all these deals BOS has handed out this summer, to put an actual team/target out there. Can't possibly keep all those contracts together with the new CBA.

[LeBowen]

However, recent history and particularly the fluctuating nature of the modern NBA and team/star player relationships make me hesitant to agree to such a fixed, binary landscape outlook. While all of these teams' great players are thought of as "untouchables" and "no way they're traded" right now, the fact remains that at least one of those players is traded or asks out every year. Kawhi was once an "untouchable, he's their franchise" player on a list like yours, TBH, and we all know how that went.


Agreed, but all those players I listed on my shortlist are under long-term contract (or will be, because noone is rejecting a $200M rookie extension), meaning the price would be hefty.
We're not getting Brandon Miller or Banchero without 5 FRPs, Devin and one more starter. At that point, is it even worth it?
For me the biggest incentive for Markkanen is his fit and the ability to keep all of our good players.


Secondly, we've seen this summer the first effects of the new CBA, and I predict they will hit the currently-contending teams very hard in the next 2-3 years. Already the Clippers preferred to lose PG and perhaps give an effective close to their contending window, over going to the second apron. No doubt other asset-strapped teams, like Milwaukee, will follow suit in short time.

Yeah, we talked about it. I said myself that we'll have a huge advantage because three max deals isn't the way to go anymore, which always works in favor of the team with the best player.
And because of new CBA, no matter how well we manage our cap, every good rookie will get the max extension.
Denver drafted their three starters, fourth is on a team-friendly deal and they're still fucked with no ability to improve.


Lastly, I know bashing the FO's decision is common coin in ST, but on the drafting point - what's the problem with Castle, tbh? (he's a Wright pick to boot). You repeatedly hear about this "terrible drafting" by the Spurs as of late, but they've hit on as many players as they've missed, like most teams do, and many of their recent picks play high-level roles (White obviously, Dejounte as well, and our own established players). The Spurs FO might've lost the "international edge" they once had, but they're far from a bottom-tier drafting team, and I've yet to see any real evidence to the contrary as opposed to other teams' drafting output.

There's no issue with Castle. In fact, he was my favorite option at #4 and I think he'll be great.
But he's not a shooter as of now and playing him together with Jeremy would be a disaster. Not just for Castle, but for everyone.
If we don't get Markkanen, we simply have to get a reliable 3pt shooter to start at PF or our entire offense and team functionality goes to shit.
Can't have two non-shooters. It's either Castle or Jeremy starting. I'd prefer Castle to start.

When we traded with Minnesota, forum went into full meltdown mode, I had a more positive take, but I said I expect them to actually get a good starter instead if they didn't want two rookies.
But building through draft and trading a #8 pick just doesn't go together, no matter how weak the class is.


I say all this, to propose a fourth option: make minor, one or two-year deals, keep the pick stash, and be ready to pounce at the opportunity. As the old saying goes, you will know the opportunity when it presents itself; it's not something that can be mapped out or predicted (depends on the situation obviously).

In particular, I'm looking real, real good at all these deals BOS has handed out this summer, to put an actual team/target out there. Can't possibly keep all those contracts together with the new CBA.

I'm looking at Minnesota, tbh.
They're just fucked after this season.
The next summer they'll be at second apron with 5 starters and 2 rookies on the roster. Conley will be 38 and who knows if these two rookies are good enough for a playoff team.
They'll definitely lose NAW and have to choose between keeping Naz or McDaniels. If there isn't anyone dumb enough to trade for KAT, that is.

Then we can either go for Naz in free agency or give them back that pick and swap for McDaniels.


TL;DR
Doesn't have to be Markkanen, but if we go into the season with Champagnie, Keldon and Jeremy as three rotation forwards, I'll honestly lose it.

[MultiTroll]

Chet
Banchero

[Sugus]

Good post, and we're in agreement over most things.


Agreed, but all those players I listed on my shortlist are under long-term contract (or will be, because noone is rejecting a $200M rookie extension), meaning the price would be hefty.
We're not getting Brandon Miller or Banchero without 5 FRPs, Devin and one more starter. At that point, is it even worth it?
For me the biggest incentive for Markkanen is his fit and the ability to keep all of our good players.

I really don't know that we'd be able to keep all of our good players to get Lauri - it depends on the package. We might well be forced to lose Sochan or Devin to actually win the sweepstakes, if GS is desperate enough. And secondly, depending on the player, yes I think such a package is worth it. Our own picks would be near bottom once we begin to contend, and if you swap Devin for a less-important player (and add an extra pick or w/e), such a trade has been the catapult of many previous championship teams into "true contention" status.

But the player for such a big package has to be right, and I hesitate on Lauri. Not only for his flaws but his availability, when paired with such a unicorn as Wemby. I want a reliable co-star first and foremost, tbh.



There's no issue with Castle. In fact, he was my favorite option at #4 and I think he'll be great.
But he's not a shooter as of now and playing him together with Jeremy would be a disaster. Not just for Castle, but for everyone.
If we don't get Markkanen, we simply have to get a reliable 3pt shooter to start at PF or our entire offense and team functionality goes to shit.
Can't have two non-shooters. It's either Castle or Jeremy starting. I'd prefer Castle to start.

I don't disagree, but that's also not relevant to evaluating Castle as a draft pick. As you say and I agree, he was BPA at 4, and a great pick for now. And it's exactly why I asked you; this farce of the Spurs' supposed bad drafting falls on its face when you look at the hit rate of teams across the league. No team drafts perfect and everyone has skeletons in the closet, but doomers here magnify the Spurs' misses without acknowledging the objectively great picks they've also made.

White, Dejounte and Keldon in consecutive years with #29 picks is an amazing drafting string, and these were extremely recent picks. But you only hear about Primo and Samanic when the Spurs' drafing is referenced as an evaluating point.


When we traded with Minnesota, forum went into full meltdown mode, I had a more positive take, but I said I expect them to actually get a good starter instead if they didn't want two rookies.
But building through draft and trading a #8 pick just doesn't go together, no matter how weak the class is.

I would agree -- had the Spurs not traded #8 for more picks, exclusively. You can perfectly argue that we need talent now, but it's just as easily argued back that spreading out draft picks into Wemby's contending years is a sound, "dynasty" move. Whether you like the trade or not, there is nothing against their "build through the draft" philosophy there, tbh. You still have to draft in the future (or trade the pick, ofc).


I'm looking at Minnesota, tbh.
They're just fucked after this season.
The next summer they'll be at second apron with 5 starters and 2 rookies on the roster. Conley will be 38 and who knows if these two rookies are good enough for a playoff team.
They'll definitely lose NAW and have to choose between keeping Naz or McDaniels. If there isn't anyone dumb enough to trade for KAT, that is.
Then we can either go for Naz in free agency or give them back that pick and swap for McDaniels.
TL;DR
Doesn't have to be Markkanen, but if we go into the season with Champagnie, Keldon and Jeremy as three rotation forwards, I'll honestly lose it.

Full agree, and MIN (and MWK) are the two teams that prompted my last response. Just no way to keep them together with the new CBA. I'd love Naz Reid on this team, perfect match with Wemby and great player all around. Just fuck no on getting KAT :lol

And I'm fully of the belief that Castle will start alongside Sochan before Champaignie starts another game. We'll have to wait and see, but I don't see the Spurs going there again at all, I'd lose it too.

[R. DeMurre]

Not bashing on the FO here, but it is pretty ironic that it seems to be established now that they really want positional size at PG-- almost to the point of obsession-- but their biggest draft miss in recent years was Haliburton, a 6'5" PG.

[LeBowen]

I really don't know that we'd be able to keep all of our good players to get Lauri - it depends on the package. We might well be forced to lose Sochan or Devin to actually win the sweepstakes, if GS is desperate enough. And secondly, depending on the player, yes I think such a package is worth it. Our own picks would be near bottom once we begin to contend, and if you swap Devin for a less-important player (and add an extra pick or w/e), such a trade has been the catapult of many previous championship teams into "true contention" status.

But the player for such a big package has to be right, and I hesitate on Lauri. Not only for his flaws but his availability, when paired with such a unicorn as Wemby. I want a reliable co-star first and foremost, tbh.

No point in going over the package again, but losing Devin for Markkanen would be a no for me, unless it's just Devin +1 FRP.
I'd draw the line at Chicago, two Minnesota and either two average Spurs picks or one good Hawks pick. I'd make Jeremy available.
If they take Collins, I'm giving them that Hornets fake pick, too. But that's just because I detest Collins.



I don't disagree, but that's also not relevant to evaluating Castle as a draft pick. As you say and I agree, he was BPA at 4, and a great pick for now. And it's exactly why I asked you; this farce of the Spurs' supposed bad drafting falls on its face when you look at the hit rate of teams across the league. No team drafts perfect and everyone has skeletons in the closet, but doomers here magnify the Spurs' misses without acknowledging the objectively great picks they've also made.

White, Dejounte and Keldon in consecutive years with #29 picks is an amazing drafting string, and these were extremely recent picks. But you only hear about Primo and Samanic when the Spurs' drafing is referenced as an evaluating point.

It's really hard to draft all-stars, that's why I feel picks are often over-valued, especially picks given up by playoff teams.
I'd be against giving up picks if Spurs had nothing left, like what Minnesota and Bucks did and now they're stuck.

None of the picks we own except '27 ATL if Trae leaves are going to be in top5 without another low percentage luck.
How many players drafted outside top5 over the past decade are better than Markkanen? That's how I look at things.


I would agree -- had the Spurs not traded #8 for more picks, exclusively. You can perfectly argue that we need talent now, but it's just as easily argued back that spreading out draft picks into Wemby's contending years is a sound, "dynasty" move. Whether you like the trade or not, there is nothing against their "build through the draft" philosophy there, tbh. You still have to draft in the future (or trade the pick, ofc).

I'd be fine if those picks were in '25-27 drafts, but '31?
We gave up something that has legit value in #8 pick for something completely unknown.
I'd say that odds of someone drafted in late lottery becoming a good starter are better than Minnesota picks being in top10.


And I'm fully of the belief that Castle will start alongside Sochan before Champaignie starts another game. We'll have to wait and see, but I don't see the Spurs going there again at all, I'd lose it too.

I really think Sochan needs a change of scenary and some pressure taken off him.
Change of scenary as coming off the bench.
I think he's a better player than Mamu, but we all saw how much better Mamu played with Wemby due to his skillset.
Sochan with his current skillset just isn't good a fit with Wemby. I'm not saying he can't get there, but I think it's Castle's turn to be put in a good position.


Not bashing on the FO here, but it is pretty ironic that it seems to be established now that they really want positional size at PG-- almost to the point of obsession-- and their biggest miss in recent years was Haliburton, a 6'5" PG.

Size doesn't matter as much if someone's a horrible defender, which Haliburton definitely is.
Luka is 6'7 and got hunted in the finals, size doesn't matter if you can't defend at all.

Also, I'm not taking that Haliburton pick against them because it was COVID draft and it was way harder to scout player.
And we had both DJ and Derrick on the roster, was pointless to go for another point guard.

[scott]

Great post LeBowen.

I'd say that if we miss out on Lauri, then Naz needs to be our major target next off-season. For all the reasons you spell out, Naz is really the next best fit for what we need that matches the availability and timeline requirements. All the rest of the list is pipedreams. With that said, more players can emerge onto that list (much like Lauri did, three years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation about him... who will emerge next?) so there is a bigger pipeline that we can currently see.

But... for all intents and purposes I think we either need to get Lauri, get Naz (which will likely have to wait a year) or build through the draft. I feel like we've already kind of shot ourselves in the foot with the building through the draft (by trading #8 and by signing CP3 which I do believe raises our floor out of the juicy pick range. And I see @Segus's dissent on trading #8, which I disagree with for a different reason which I'll outline below). If not that, then we have to accept that wing is not where the strength of this team is going to be, which is okay... but not optimal (again, for the reasons you laid out).

To my friend Segus, I disagree that punting on #8 is aligned with building through the draft, for one specific reason. I'm actually okay with the concept of moving out of #8, that is perfect fine. My biggest problem is the specific return they got does not align with a lot of paths forward. Yes, it is nice to spread out the picks and have some lined up for when Wemby is in our prime and we are presumed to be a good team... but it presumes that we will be a good team, a step that gets stepped (to use the Spurs' terminology) by doing things like punting on #8. I recognize this is a bit of nuanced, interwoven logic, but that's my take on it. With that said, punting on #8 makes a ton of sense if you've decided that you are going to reshape the roster immediately in a different way (such as signing CP3 and trading for Lauri). Now it all makes sense... but trading #8 to slow roll your way to being a good team, is illogical to me.

[bluebellmaniac]

Spurs don't sign disgruntled or upset players.

So FALSE!

We only sign hard working, respectable players. We ain't shooting for some Primo wacko.

We will stand pat if we need to.

[LeBowen]

Bumping this one since it seems that Lauri is staying in Utah. :pctoss

Post #16 has my list, I'd like someone to make me enthusiastic about our long-term wing situation.

[scott]

Bumping this one since it seems that Lauri is staying in Utah. :pctoss

Post #16 has my list, I'd like someone to make me enthusiastic about our long-term wing situation.

I feel like your list didn't go deep enough on scouting of 12 year olds. 20131 will be here before you know it.

[ambchang]

I feel like your list didn't go deep enough on scouting of 12 year olds. 20131 will be here before you know it.

Better call Karl Malone.

[Seventyniner]

Better call Karl Malone.

Is his grandson eligible for the 20131 draft?

[ambchang]

Is his grandson eligible for the 20131 draft?

He likes 12 year olds.

[pookenstein]

Option A: give up multiple picks + player(s) not named Wembanyama: Brown, Davis, JJJr, Sabonis
Option B: give up Vassell level player + pick: Franz Wagner, Keegan Murray, Zion (might have to add a pick or two)
Option C: give up Sochan level player + pick or 2-3 picks: Aaron Gordon, Herb Jones, MPJ, Naz Reid,
Give up one or two picks: Jaden McDaniels

This is all completely ignoring contracts or age. Just fit as I see it. I also left out #1 options like Tatum or Banchero, just added #2 guys or guys that have proven to accept the role of a Robin like Brown or Davis.

[spurs50_]

I wish Sidy would demand a trade, but there wouldn’t be any takers.

[LeBowen]

Just remembered this topic, let's give it a look.

From post #23 and my long analysis.
4th of July, so early offseason.


As for the wings market, Markkanen is literally the best fit and opportunity that will present itself in the next few years, future rookies obviously not included.

Well, that didn't work out.


Dallas Mavericks:
Them crumbling isn't out of question in a few years, but Spurs are the last place Cuban would trade Luka to. And at that point we won't have many picks.
PJ Washington is just a solid role player.

I guess it's too bad for them Cuban isn't in charge anymore.
We got Fox since then and we're expanding our search to role players, so PJ moves up on the list.
Expiring contract and he might want out of that shitshow. Could probably be acquired by returning the Mavs swap, but would we do it considering they could be really bad by then?


Denver Nuggets:
MPJ is already on a max contract and isn't worth it. I actually wouldn't mind him here if Denver decides to get out of cap hell by trading him.
Gordon isn't what Wemby needs due to his subpar shooting ability.

No changes here, MPJ's off the ball game and rebounding would be perfect.
Denver will probably make moves if they don't get to at least WCF.


Golden State Warriors:
Wiggins is washed already.
Moody is nothing special.
Kuminga looks to be a good player in the making, but he's not a shooter.

Trades happened.


Houston Rockets:
A team that will be interesting to follow just for their quantity of wings.
Amen isn't someone we'd be interested in due to his lack of shooting ability.
Brooks could be a useful veteran, but is just a subpar 3pt shooter and a great defender.
Whitmore has potential and is a good archetype.
Eason could be a decent role player.
Jabari Smith Jr looks to be the best of the bunch and the most interesting one. No way Spurs could get him.

We aren't a good trade partner for the Rockets, no chance to get anyone.


Los Angeles Clippers:
Nephew is done.
DJJ is a solid pick up for them, but just a role player.

Looks like nephew isn't done, but yeah.


Los Angeles Lakers:
Lebron is turning 40.
Hachimura could be a decent rotation option, nothing special.


Memphis Grizzlies:
Bane would be a great fit, but they're not trading him anytime soon.
JJJ would also be a good fit, but they're not trading him, either.
GG Jackson showed a lot of potential this season, we'll see how he develops.


Who knows what happens after the coaching change.
JJJ hasn't signed an extension yet, but even if he becomes available we wouldn't be able to get him without Castle going the other way.
Bane seems to be a scumbag.


Minnesota Timberwolves:
McDaniels is a good 3-D wing in the making.
Naz Reid looks like a perfect non all-star partner for Wemby.
Will be interesting which one they keep after this season, they can't pay and keep everyone. Or they trade KAT.

It seems that they did trade KAT, who would've thought.
Cleared space for Naz, he's staying unless he doesn't want to be there.
McDaniels is still an intriguing player for me, he's playing the best basketball of his career.
Averaging 15ppg, 45% 3pt on 3.6 attempts in March. Obviously a hot streak, but his shot looks way better.
And he's an elite defender.
His extension just kicked in, goes from $23M this season up to $30M in 2029. I'd give Timberwolves their swap back if McDaniels is available.


New Orleans Pelicans:
Trey Murhpy III looks to be a very good wing in the making, we'll see if he can take the next step and become something more than a role player.
Herb Jones is maybe the best value contract in the league, but he's just a 3-D role player, not someone who moves the needle on a bad team.
Ingram is a ball-stoper, low-effort player who's not suited for winning basketball.

Another good prediction, Murphy took the next step and is probably untradeable. But who knows, it's the Pelicans, idiotic moves happen.
Herb would be a perfect target, but he should also be untradeable.
Ingram is gone.


Oklahoma City Thunder:
Jalen Williams is obviously the player we could've and should've drafted, but we'll never get him.
Dort is a great defender and a decent enough 3pt shooter, good role player.
Chet is a F/C hybrid who will probably be a human version of Wemby.

Nothing of interest here.


Phoenix Suns:
KD is turning 36 this year, maybe we see him take the hardest road in '26 and joins Wemby as a free agent.

Maybe he even joins in '25, who knows?


Portland Trailblazers:
Jerami Grant would be interesting, but his contract is a big no for our timeline.

Or maybe not, since he's been disgustingly bad and seems to be content with collecting paychecks.


Sacramento Kings:
Keegan Murray is supposedly not available in Lauri talks. Would be a good player for us.
Harrison Barnes is a solid veteran we should try for if Kings look to dump him and we don't get Markkanen.

Boom, another lucky guess.


Utah Jazz:
Markkanen is obviously the perfect option for so many reasons.

That ship has sailed...or has it?


Atlanta Hawks:
Jalen Johnson looks to be a good wing in the making.
Risacher just got drafted, unknown.
Deandre Hunter could be a solid role player option.

Jalen is unavailable, Hunter is gone.


Boston Celtics:
Tatum and Brown are obviously franchise players for them, pointless to talk about.
If they ever become available, they'll be old and on massive contracts.

Nothing to add.


Brooklyn Nets:
Cam Johnson and DFS would be interesting role player options, not worth the asking price, most likely.

DFS is gone, Cam is still out there and could be an option this summer.


Charloette Hornets:
Brandon Miller looks like he's going to be an all-star wing. With Hornets being permanently awful, he might just become available...in like 4 years.
Salaun is an unknown, we'll see how he does.
Miles Bridges is a criminal.

Miller unfortunately got injured.


Chicago Bulls:
Patrick Williams didn't live up to the expectations.

But he still got an extension.


Cleveland Cavaliers:
Strus is their only wing worth mentioning and he's 6'5.
Okoro is still FA, but his shot is unreliable.

They did try to fix the issue with Hunter.


Detroit Pistons:
They're collecting those non-shooting wings like there's no tomorrow.

But they're making it work despite Ausar and Holland being unable to shoot.


Indiana Pacers:
Siakam is a great player, but not that good of a fit with Wemby.
Mathurin looks to be a good wing in the making, but he's kind of undersized for a wing, better as a guard.

Nothing to see here.


Miami Heat:
Jimmy is old and just causes trouble.

He indeed does.


Milwaukee Bucks:
Giannis might ask after a few more bad seasons, but he'll be well into his 30s and they'll still want a haul.
Middleton is also getting too old.

As expected.


New York Knicks:
Looks like they got all the elite role-player wings. Not much to say, none will be available.
I really rate OG if he can stay healthy.

Who knows what happens if they don't put up a fight in the second round against the Celtics.
I don't expect Thibs to be there next season and they might need to retool.


Orlando Magic:
Banchero is on his way to stardom, no way they're moving him for at least 5 more years.
Wagner also looks to be a great player in the making, but he can't shoot.

They're both great, but unavailable and noone on that roster can shoot.


Philadelphia 76ers:
PG is old and not worth the contract they gave him.

I didn't expect him to be this useless.


Toronto Raptors:
Barnes has a lot of potential, but that deal is already huge. Their franchise player.

They might regret that contract. Good player, but doesn't look like he'll be a superstar.


Washington Wizards:
We'll see how Coulibaly and Sarr develop, too early to tell.
Kuzma would be a decent rotation player.

Kuzma got traded.


The list of potential 2025 targets, with role players and PF/C hybrids added:
PJ Washington
MPJ
Aldama
McDaniels
Naz Reid
Murphy III
Herb Jones
KD
John Collins
Markkanen
Cam Johnson

Markkanen, Murphy and Herb are unrealistic, but one can hope.
Getting one of the PFs should be the priority, we can figure the nominal SF position with what we already have, but if we don't get someone with phyiscal presence to help Wemby out, we won't improve our rebounding.

[scott]

Just remembered this topic, let's give it a look.


The list of potential 2025 targets, with role players and PF/C hybrids added:
PJ Washington
MPJ
Aldama
McDaniels
Naz Reid
Murphy III
Herb Jones
KD
John Collins
Markkanen
Cam Johnson

Markkanen, Murphy and Herb are unrealistic, but one can hope.
Getting one of the PFs should be the priority, we can figure the nominal SF position with what we already have, but if we don't get someone with phyiscal presence to help Wemby out, we won't improve our rebounding.

You glossed over IND in your list, but I’d add Nesmith and Walker to the list of wings who would be good targets. I don’t know how gettable they are, but they’re both players that I think would fit well.

Jake Laravia also belongs on the list, IMO.

[LeBowen]

You glossed over IND in your list, but I’d add Nesmith and Walker to the list of wings who would be good targets. I don’t know how gettable they are, but they’re both players that I think would fit well.

Walker is an interesting player, but would he be an immediate contributor? I don't think he's ready for a starting spot, I was looking at potential starters we could get.
I know you rate Nesmith, he's a good player, but we need someone with actual forward size. Pacers aren't giving up a starter on a really cheap contract.


Jake Laravia also belongs on the list, IMO.

You think we need him if we get Knueppel and a starter?
Even if Kelvin and Evan are gone, we'd have Knueppel, Champ and Jeremy off the bench, I'd say we'd need some more creation rather than another shooter.
I'm not that concerned with bench shooters as long as we have Champ on that cheap contract. Yeah, we could upgrade, but bench shooters aren't high on my list of priorities.

[Dejounte]

Just remembered this topic, let's give it a look.

From post #23 and my long analysis.
4th of July, so early offseason.



Well, that didn't work out.



I guess it's too bad for them Cuban isn't in charge anymore.
We got Fox since then and we're expanding our search to role players, so PJ moves up on the list.
Expiring contract and he might want out of that shitshow. Could probably be acquired by returning the Mavs swap, but would we do it considering they could be really bad by then?



No changes here, MPJ's off the ball game and rebounding would be perfect.
Denver will probably make moves if they don't get to at least WCF.



Trades happened.



We aren't a good trade partner for the Rockets, no chance to get anyone.



Looks like nephew isn't done, but yeah.





Who knows what happens after the coaching change.
JJJ hasn't signed an extension yet, but even if he becomes available we wouldn't be able to get him without Castle going the other way.
Bane seems to be a scumbag.



It seems that they did trade KAT, who would've thought.
Cleared space for Naz, he's staying unless he doesn't want to be there.
McDaniels is still an intriguing player for me, he's playing the best basketball of his career.
Averaging 15ppg, 45% 3pt on 3.6 attempts in March. Obviously a hot streak, but his shot looks way better.
And he's an elite defender.
His extension just kicked in, goes from $23M this season up to $30M in 2029. I'd give Timberwolves their swap back if McDaniels is available.



Another good prediction, Murphy took the next step and is probably untradeable. But who knows, it's the Pelicans, idiotic moves happen.
Herb would be a perfect target, but he should also be untradeable.
Ingram is gone.



Nothing of interest here.



Maybe he even joins in '25, who knows?



Or maybe not, since he's been disgustingly bad and seems to be content with collecting paychecks.



Boom, another lucky guess.



That ship has sailed...or has it?



Jalen is unavailable, Hunter is gone.



Nothing to add.



DFS is gone, Cam is still out there and could be an option this summer.



Miller unfortunately got injured.



But he still got an extension.



They did try to fix the issue with Hunter.



But they're making it work despite Ausar and Holland being unable to shoot.



Nothing to see here.



He indeed does.



As expected.



Who knows what happens if they don't put up a fight in the second round against the Celtics.
I don't expect Thibs to be there next season and they might need to retool.



They're both great, but unavailable and noone on that roster can shoot.



I didn't expect him to be this useless.



They might regret that contract. Good player, but doesn't look like he'll be a superstar.



Kuzma got traded.


The list of potential 2025 targets, with role players and PF/C hybrids added:
PJ Washington
MPJ
Aldama
McDaniels
Naz Reid
Murphy III
Herb Jones
KD
John Collins
Markkanen
Cam Johnson

Markkanen, Murphy and Herb are unrealistic, but one can hope.
Getting one of the PFs should be the priority, we can figure the nominal SF position with what we already have, but if we don't get someone with phyiscal presence to help Wemby out, we won't improve our rebounding.

Barely anyone on your list has the physical prowess the team sorely needs. There’s like 1-2 guys that can help with rebounding and that’s it. This list is poor. Just getting size for the sake of size is pointless if they’re not really bangers down low, as we’ve seen with Wemby.

[LeBowen]

Barely anyone on your list has the physical prowess the team sorely needs. There’s like 1-2 guys that can help with rebounding and that’s it. This list is poor. Just getting size for the sake of size is pointless if they’re not really bangers down low, as we’ve seen with Wemby.

And which "banger" forwards who can shoot decently enough would you suggest?
John Collins is probably the best option if that's the archetype you want to play next to Wemby.

PJ Washington would also do well in that role.
8rpg in 32mpg this season after their bigs went down.

We've seen exactly what with Wemby?
1v1 matchups aren't his issue, it's just that he gets crowded because our starting lineup consists of players who offer nothing in terms of paint defense and rebounding.
MPJ isn't considered to be a physical forward, but he'd surely be a massive upgrade over starting Devin at SF.
Barnes at SF would do way better than being matched up with bigger forwards.

Something like Fox/Castle/McDaniels/Washington/Wemby would do fine. Still wouldn't be an elite rebounding team, but would be solid enough.

[SpursBills]

Barely anyone on your list has the physical prowess the team sorely needs. There’s like 1-2 guys that can help with rebounding and that’s it. This list is poor. Just getting size for the sake of size is pointless if they’re not really bangers down low, as we’ve seen with Wemby.

I'm actually curious too who your list of appropriate bigs next to Wemby is - it sounds like you want someone with
1) Requisite size and physicality inside to provide some rim protection and rebounding
2) High IQ for connective passing
3) Can kind of switch out on the perimeter
4) Has an ok-ish 3 pointer
5) Can thrive in a low-usage role

Off the top of my head, is the list just mid/late-career Al Horford? I guess if we drop the 3 pointer requirement, healthy Rob Williams would be ideal since he provides vertical spacing as a lob threat. What other guys did you have in mind?

[scott]

Walker is an interesting player, but would he be an immediate contributor? I don't think he's ready for a starting spot, I was looking at potential starters we could get.
I know you rate Nesmith, he's a good player, but we need someone with actual forward size. Pacers aren't giving up a starter on a really cheap contract.



You think we need him if we get Knueppel and a starter?
Even if Kelvin and Evan are gone, we'd have Knueppel, Champ and Jeremy off the bench, I'd say we'd need some more creation rather than another shooter.
I'm not that concerned with bench shooters as long as we have Champ on that cheap contract. Yeah, we could upgrade, but bench shooters aren't high on my list of priorities.

I don't limit targets to just starters, because we need more than just starters, IMO.

Nesmith would be a nice fit here as starting SF, but I don't know how willing IND would be willing to give him up (probably not very).

Walker I'd slot in as backup SF/PF. I think he'd be an upgrade over Sochan simply based on fit - but he's not gotten nearly as much run with IND as Sochan has here. That might be because of IND's depth, or it might be because Walker isn't ready... hard to tell.

[Dejounte]

And which "banger" forwards who can shoot decently enough would you suggest?
John Collins is probably the best option if that's the archetype you want to play next to Wemby.

PJ Washington would also do well in that role.
8rpg in 32mpg this season after their bigs went down.

We've seen exactly what with Wemby?
1v1 matchups aren't his issue, it's just that he gets crowded because our starting lineup consists of players who offer nothing in terms of paint defense and rebounding.
MPJ isn't considered to be a physical forward, but he'd surely be a massive upgrade over starting Devin at SF.
Barnes at SF would do way better than being matched up with bigger forwards.

Something like Fox/Castle/McDaniels/Washington/Wemby would do fine. Still wouldn't be an elite rebounding team, but would be solid enough.

Most ideal archetype is Bam Adebayo
Obviously, he’ll probably never be available

Onyeka Okongwu is another ideal fit next to Wemby. Also likely not available for a while

I think Washington is too small and doesn’t “man the paint” well enough. Yeah, he rebounds ok but he’s barely a body in there. He grabs more of the opportunistic rebounds and not the “i’m big and strong enough to get this rebound against you”. And, he shoots too many 3’s when the team needs a guy underneath on offense.

[Dejounte]

I'm actually curious too who your list of appropriate bigs next to Wemby is - it sounds like you want someone with
1) Requisite size and physicality inside to provide some rim protection and rebounding
2) High IQ for connective passing
3) Can kind of switch out on the perimeter
4) Has an ok-ish 3 pointer
5) Can thrive in a low-usage role

Off the top of my head, is the list just mid/late-career Al Horford? I guess if we drop the 3 pointer requirement, healthy Rob Williams would be ideal since he provides vertical spacing as a lob threat. What other guys did you have in mind?
Yes, you described the perfect PF next to Wemby. 2 is maybe not as important if everyone else is a good passer. A guy who is just tall enough and thick enough to be a presence against guys who dare try to be physical with him. On offense, not a guy who’s accustomed to being a spot up 3 pt shooter, but a guy who thrives inside, a guy who cleans up the misses, a junkyard dog, able to shove guys inside, sometimes go out for a three but only 2 times a game. Not a twig, a guy who can’t be pushed around, but fast enough to switch out from time to time.

[Dejounte]

Now that I’m describing the perfect archetype… I need to give Thomas Sorber and Yaxel Lendeborg more of a serious look in this upcoming draft… they seem closest to what I’m describing (aside from maybe CMB)

[SpursBills]

Yes, you described the perfect PF next to Wemby. 2 is maybe not as important if everyone else is a good passer. A guy who is just tall enough and thick enough to be a presence against guys who dare try to be physical with him. On offense, not a guy who’s accustomed to being a spot up 3 pt shooter, but a guy who thrives inside, a guy who cleans up the misses, a junkyard dog, able to shove guys inside, sometimes go out for a three but only 2 times a game. Not a twig, a guy who can’t be pushed around, but fast enough to switch out from time to time.

I actually think the exact same way, but I also prioritize high IQ and the ability to attack, which is why my big board looks the way it does. It's an interesting question in team-building philosophy though -

if you could put the ideal big next to Wemby, and you had to choose between Bam and JJJ, which would you choose? I know your answer, but I think the board would be very split on this

[Dejounte]

I actually think the exact same way, but I also prioritize high IQ and the ability to attack, which is why my big board looks the way it does. It's an interesting question in team-building philosophy though -

if you could put the ideal big next to Wemby, and you had to choose between Bam and JJJ, which would you choose? I know your answer, but I think the board would be very split on this

Yeah you know already

JJJ is massively overrated and would be an awful fit next to Wemby. He’d want to occupy the same spaces as Wemby on offense and it would eventually force Wemby out the door. People’s mindsets here are still stuck pre-Wemby where they think a PF with hot shooting from outside is a need— it’s not. We have that already with Wemby. He’s the guy. Now we gotta get our psuedo center (who’s actually a PF in size and versatility on defense).

p.s. JJJ is also soft on defense and rebounding

[LeBowen]

Now we gotta get our psuedo center (who’s actually a PF in size and versatility on defense).

And how would that work with Castle and Fox in the lineup? Even if the fifth guy is the best shooter in the league, we'd have spacing issues.
We need a Millsap, tbh. Maybe there's one in the second round, who knows.

[Dejounte]

And how would that work with Castle and Fox in the lineup? Even if the fifth guy is the best shooter in the league, we'd have spacing issues.
We need a Millsap, tbh. Maybe there's one in the second round, who knows.
The Spurs don’t have spacing issues because our PF is a non shooter. The Spurs have spacing issues if our two guards can’t shoot. You won’t find guards in the league who will do the rebounding and physicality inside that a PF would. I believe the “spacing issues” is an overstatement anyway since offense is not the team’s biggest problem, rebounding and defense is. Also, I don’t believe Fox and Castle are terrible shooters. I expect a slight improvement from both next season.

[mo7888]

Walker is an interesting player, but would he be an immediate contributor? I don't think he's ready for a starting spot, I was looking at potential starters we could get.
I know you rate Nesmith, he's a good player, but we need someone with actual forward size. Pacers aren't giving up a starter on a really cheap contract.



You think we need him if we get Knueppel and a starter?
Even if Kelvin and Evan are gone, we'd have Knueppel, Champ and Jeremy off the bench, I'd say we'd need some more creation rather than another shooter.
I'm not that concerned with bench shooters as long as we have Champ on that cheap contract. Yeah, we could upgrade, but bench shooters aren't high on my list of priorities.

I personally think Walker is an instant starter at the 4.

[LeBowen]

The Spurs don’t have spacing issues because our PF is a non shooter. The Spurs have spacing issues if our two guards can’t shoot.

But those issues aren't helped if they also start a wing who can't shoot.


You won’t find guards in the league who will do the rebounding and physicality inside that a PF would.

I don't get this part. What are you referring to? Or what are you thinking I referred to?


I believe the “spacing issues” is an overstatement anyway since offense is not the team’s biggest problem, rebounding and defense is.

I think you can get away with subpar spacing in the regular season, but not in the playoffs.
Look at last year's West. OKC, Nuggets, Timberwolves got eliminated because their role players couldn't hit the shots they usually do. Can happen even if those players are good shooters, but we wouldn't be helping ourselves by adding another poor shooter.

We can't have three players who prefer to drive or play inside around Wemby. Look at what happened this year whenever we couldn't hit our shots. It was easy for the opponents to crowd Wemby and significantly lower his shot quality.
Most teams have their longest wing on him, with their center taking advantage in a matchup with a non-shooter. Take that away by adding another shooter and the game gets way easier for Wemby.
I don't even think lack of PFs is what killed us this season, but lack of positional size and boxing out.
Adding a 10rpg PF would help, but wouldn't solve all the ball watching and matchups that can't work.

That's why I got my avatar. CP3 was fine as a point guard and is fine now when Fox got shut down, but two of them were too big of a burden together. Barnes has good size for a SF, but we take that away by playing him at PF.
Same goes for Devin being pushed to SF.
Spurs were always a team that started 5 players with the best fit as a unit, not 5 best players on the roster. If someone has a problem with that, they should be free to go.

With something like Fox/Castle/Barnes/J. Collins/Wemby we'd have positional size and matchups/rebounding wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Then we can hopefully add an elite 3-D role player instead of Barnes next year if it doesn't happen this summer.

After all these trades, Gordon and Randle are the only really physical forwards with size in the Western playoff picture.
We'll see what happens when Chet is fully healthy and how OKC sets it up.


Also, I don’t believe Fox and Castle are terrible shooters. I expect a slight improvement from both next season.

Fox will probably be back to his ~33% average, hopefully Castle can also get close to it.


I personally think Walker is an instant starter at the 4.

I can't say I've seen enough of him, looking at the stats in 9 games he played 25 or more 7 was the highest number of rebounds he got. 5 or less in 8 other games. Doesn't look ideal in that regard.

[RC_Drunkford]

And how would that work with Castle and Fox in the lineup? Even if the fifth guy is the best shooter in the league, we'd have spacing issues.
We need a Millsap, tbh. Maybe there's one in the second round, who knows.

CMB has been compared to Milsap A LOT

[R. DeMurre]

JJJ's rebounding is almost comically bad, and there are 7 NBA years of evidence plus a disastrous World Cup experience to back it up. The 3pt shooting is nice, but I'd be nervous putting him beside Wemby as the second big.

[cutewizard]

Naz Reid plus Yabusele

Can we have both?

[spurraider21]

Would be cool if Evan and Keldon demanded trades tbh

[Dejounte]

But those issues aren't helped if they also start a wing who can't shoot.



I don't get this part. What are you referring to? Or what are you thinking I referred to?



I think you can get away with subpar spacing in the regular season, but not in the playoffs.
Look at last year's West. OKC, Nuggets, Timberwolves got eliminated because their role players couldn't hit the shots they usually do. Can happen even if those players are good shooters, but we wouldn't be helping ourselves by adding another poor shooter.

We can't have three players who prefer to drive or play inside around Wemby. Look at what happened this year whenever we couldn't hit our shots. It was easy for the opponents to crowd Wemby and significantly lower his shot quality.
Most teams have their longest wing on him, with their center taking advantage in a matchup with a non-shooter. Take that away by adding another shooter and the game gets way easier for Wemby.
I don't even think lack of PFs is what killed us this season, but lack of positional size and boxing out.
Adding a 10rpg PF would help, but wouldn't solve all the ball watching and matchups that can't work.

That's why I got my avatar. CP3 was fine as a point guard and is fine now when Fox got shut down, but two of them were too big of a burden together. Barnes has good size for a SF, but we take that away by playing him at PF.
Same goes for Devin being pushed to SF.
Spurs were always a team that started 5 players with the best fit as a unit, not 5 best players on the roster. If someone has a problem with that, they should be free to go.

With something like Fox/Castle/Barnes/J. Collins/Wemby we'd have positional size and matchups/rebounding wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Then we can hopefully add an elite 3-D role player instead of Barnes next year if it doesn't happen this summer.

After all these trades, Gordon and Randle are the only really physical forwards with size in the Western playoff picture.
We'll see what happens when Chet is fully healthy and how OKC sets it up.



Fox will probably be back to his ~33% average, hopefully Castle can also get close to it.



I can't say I've seen enough of him, looking at the stats in 9 games he played 25 or more 7 was the highest number of rebounds he got. 5 or less in 8 other games. Doesn't look ideal in that regard.

most of my posts are made on the go and prone to have run on sentences because i make them on my phone

re: the part you dont get

im saying that if the spurs are planning to remediate the spacing issues by making sure their 4 is a volume shooter instead of addressing that by having fox and castle improve (or worse, replaced) then we have bigger problems. My point is that it’s putting a bandaid over a bigger problem. If they insist on solving the shooting issue by finding a pf who shoots it a lot, then you have to compensate the need for rebounding and physicality through the pg, sg positions… which is unrealistic given the fact that those types of players’ availability is disproportionate to what you’ll find available for guys at the pf spot. So that’s why it’s way more reasonable to upgrade shooting concerns in every other position BUT the pf spot because we need to find a guy there who WILL rebound and WILL play physical because at other positions it will be scarce.

[CGD]

Jabari Smith Jr.
Herb Jones

[Dejounte]

Jabari Smith Jr.
Herb Jones

As a pf for the spurs, herb is too much of a lightweight at 206ish lbs. who will you have defending the big guys down low when they make wemby switch on a shooter?

as a sf? Might work if we pair him with a thick forward who can shoot and defend bigs inside, like Naz Reid. But I feel like that would cause the offense to have much less movement and you can’t run as many plays because counting on a big guy to be one of your primary shooters isn’t as effective as a much more mobile sf being your primary shooter.

[Dejounte]

IMO, a perfect offseason would be something like:
1) draft Kon with Spurs pick, Sorber with ATL pick
2) trade Vassell (and Sochan, if you have to) for KD

Fox/ Paul or Wes
Castle/ Kon or Champagnie
KD/ Kon or Champagnie
Sorber/ anyone
Wemby/ anyone

we ring if this happens tbh

[LeBowen]

im saying that if the spurs are planning to remediate the spacing issues by making sure their 4 is a volume shooter instead of addressing that by having fox and castle improve (or worse, replaced) then we have bigger problems. My point is that it’s putting a bandaid over a bigger problem. If they insist on solving the shooting issue by finding a pf who shoots it a lot, then you have to compensate the need for rebounding and physicality through the pg, sg positions… which is unrealistic given the fact that those types of players’ availability is disproportionate to what you’ll find available for guys at the pf spot. So that’s why it’s way more reasonable to upgrade shooting concerns in every other position BUT the pf spot because we need to find a guy there who WILL rebound and WILL play physical because at other positions it will be scarce.

I don't think PG/SG/SF need to be the players you're describing.
Castle will surely be an imposing physical presence compared to other guards, he's averaging 4.6 rebounds in this strech with starter minutes, will surely go up to at least 6 in a year or two while actually defending people and knowing how to box out.

Let's say we play the Rockets. I don't think having Adebayo at PF would be able to fully mitigate for Rockets having Brooks/Amen crashing the glass.

I don't think it's realistic to expect 28 year old Fox to suddenly make a big 3pt improvement. If he does, great, but it's not likely.
Castle can get to let's say ~36%, but it's going to take at least 3 years, won't happen overnight.

I disagree that having an elite shooter at PF would be a bandaid, I think it would enable Castle/Fox drives and prevent opposing teams from matching up PFs on Wemby.
I guess we'll have to wait and see Wright's strategy.

[TD 21]

The actualized version of Sorber is pretty much the ideal complement to a non traditional C like Wembanyama because he'd be able to play next to him some in certain matchups and handle the solo C minutes.

In some form or fashion and barring a Durant trade, I believe they'll more so target a versatile C than a PF this off season. My sense is they're mostly content with Sochan/Barnes (stealth extension candidate) for now.

[SpursBills]

I actually had Sorber as a late lottery guy as he fits the functional athleticism-feel intersection that I'm looking for in a big (see below), but the huge wild card is his foot injury - need more information about what it is because that could have a significant impact on his athleticism/career. Non 5th metatarsal fracture that gets pinned, fine don't care. Navicular fracture that requires fixation that could develop avascular necrosis or some other major fracture? Could be a pretty huge deal.


In the past I talked about the synergy of functional athleticism + feel leading to maximizing physical tools and over performing .

There are indicator stats for this.
Functional athleticism - OREB%, STL%, BLK%
Feel: AST%, AST:TO, STL%

Bart query: Underclassmen, 6'6+, 2.5 STL%, 2.5 BLK%, 20 AST%, 5 OREB% since 2008:
Cooper Flagg
Ben Simmons
Collin Murray-Boyles
Ethan Happ
Kyle Anderson
Draymond Green

Ethan Happ is the only bust and he had limited athleticism and shot 46% from FT as a senior. Kyle Anderson might be the least explosive player to ever play in the NBA and his instincts and wingspan allowed him to carve out a career where he's top 5 in his draft class in VORP and top 10 in total win shares.

If I drop the AST% filter to 15, I add Zion, Josh Jackson (headcase), Herb Jones, Otto Porter, and Sorber (very underrated pre-injury, now questionable due to foot injury)

It's not a perfect filter/query, but it is one that has a high hit rate for versatile high-feel defenders and well-rounded players

[mo7888]

But those issues aren't helped if they also start a wing who can't shoot.



I don't get this part. What are you referring to? Or what are you thinking I referred to?



I think you can get away with subpar spacing in the regular season, but not in the playoffs.
Look at last year's West. OKC, Nuggets, Timberwolves got eliminated because their role players couldn't hit the shots they usually do. Can happen even if those players are good shooters, but we wouldn't be helping ourselves by adding another poor shooter.

We can't have three players who prefer to drive or play inside around Wemby. Look at what happened this year whenever we couldn't hit our shots. It was easy for the opponents to crowd Wemby and significantly lower his shot quality.
Most teams have their longest wing on him, with their center taking advantage in a matchup with a non-shooter. Take that away by adding another shooter and the game gets way easier for Wemby.
I don't even think lack of PFs is what killed us this season, but lack of positional size and boxing out.
Adding a 10rpg PF would help, but wouldn't solve all the ball watching and matchups that can't work.

That's why I got my avatar. CP3 was fine as a point guard and is fine now when Fox got shut down, but two of them were too big of a burden together. Barnes has good size for a SF, but we take that away by playing him at PF.
Same goes for Devin being pushed to SF.
Spurs were always a team that started 5 players with the best fit as a unit, not 5 best players on the roster. If someone has a problem with that, they should be free to go.

With something like Fox/Castle/Barnes/J. Collins/Wemby we'd have positional size and matchups/rebounding wouldn't be as much of an issue.
Then we can hopefully add an elite 3-D role player instead of Barnes next year if it doesn't happen this summer.

After all these trades, Gordon and Randle are the only really physical forwards with size in the Western playoff picture.
We'll see what happens when Chet is fully healthy and how OKC sets it up.



Fox will probably be back to his ~33% average, hopefully Castle can also get close to it.



I can't say I've seen enough of him, looking at the stats in 9 games he played 25 or more 7 was the highest number of rebounds he got. 5 or less in 8 other games. Doesn't look ideal in that regard.

I think he's misused and under utilized there. My only concern is his motor. We don't have enough data to really judge that and he did well on talent alone in college so there wasn't any way to really analyze his motor like you'd like there either. I wouldn't pay a ton for him because of that, but I think he's an excellent fit next to Wemby if he has a motor to go with that build/skillset.

[CGD]

As a pf for the spurs, herb is too much of a lightweight at 206ish lbs. who will you have defending the big guys down low when they make wemby switch on a shooter?

as a sf? Might work if we pair him with a thick forward who can shoot and defend bigs inside, like Naz Reid. But I feel like that would cause the offense to have much less movement and you can’t run as many plays because counting on a big guy to be one of your primary shooters isn’t as effective as a much more mobile sf being your primary shooter.

Herb as the 3 and Smith as the 4 is what I was going for. Smith is 6’10” and plays PF. Good defender, serious outside threat, and doesn’t need the ball on offense to be useful.

[poopbox]

Jabari Smith Jr.
Herb Jones

https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/44cadc9b744095409bdc8b4a045fa5a8.jpg

[CGD]

https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/44cadc9b744095409bdc8b4a045fa5a8.jpg

Pretty much.

I also think Stephon Castle will ultimately guard SFs for the Spurs as he bulks up, so maybe we don’t need a Herb type at the 3. But someone in the mold of Jabari would be ideal at the PF, which is why I can’t strike Ace Bailey off my draft wishlist just yet.

[Dejounte]

Pretty much.

I also think Stephon Castle will ultimately guard SFs for the Spurs as he bulks up, so maybe we don’t need a Herb type at the 3. But someone in the mold of Jabari would be ideal at the PF, which is why I can’t strike Ace Bailey off my draft wishlist just yet.

Not sure Jabari does well enough against thicker bigs, tbh

[Dejounte]

But also the Rockets will never give him away to the Spurs. Maybe ten years from now when he’s hopped around teams

[rankingtear]

Herb as the 3 and Smith as the 4 is what I was going for. Smith is 6’10” and plays PF. Good defender, serious outside threat, and doesn’t need the ball on offense to be useful.

Offense would be too stagnant, Herb is a corner shooter and Jabari can't dribble.

[exstatic]

Pretty much.

I also think Stephon Castle will ultimately guard SFs for the Spurs as he bulks up, so maybe we don’t need a Herb type at the 3. But someone in the mold of Jabari would be ideal at the PF, which is why I can’t strike Ace Bailey off my draft wishlist just yet.

Go run a comp on TaT. Even in college, Jabari shits on Ace. They’re really not comparable prospects, other than they’re both listed at 6’10”.

[R. DeMurre]

Copper Flagg's Tankathon page of stat strengths/stat weaknesses is really something to behold-- all positives and no negatives. The only other page in recent memory I recall being so extreme was Jalen Hood-Shifino's, which was all negative with no positives.


https://www.tankathon.com/players/cooper-flagg

[CGD]

But also the Rockets will never give him away to the Spurs. Maybe ten years from now when he’s hopped around teams

Totally, i was just responding to the prompt of the thread.
99.5% of the stuff we muse about here will never happen.

[poopbox]

Not sure Jabari does well enough against thicker bigs, tbh

Rockets are top 8 in lots of defensive categories. Jabari does just fine on defense against anyone he guards.

And we'd be comparing him directly to Jeremy Sochan. He has WAY better defensive metrics across the board than Sochan.

[Dejounte]

Rockets are top 8 in lots of defensive categories. Jabari does just fine on defense against anyone he guards.

And we'd be comparing him directly to Jeremy Sochan. He has WAY better defensive metrics across the board than Sochan.
The Rockets’ defensive scheme will be nowhere near similar to what the Spurs will ever run because of Wemby’s strengths and weaknesses. The Spurs will always be plagued by Wemby’s physical limitations against brute players (big and small), so they will need a player or players to counterbalance that. Does Jabari defend bigs well and is he a decent rebounder are valid questions based on what the Spurs need. We can’t keep losing the rebound battle. This isn’t only about being better than Sochan. That’s not enough for the Spurs to truly succeed. It’s also about finding the best fit.

I’ll say it again. The Spurs need a strong PF that has tree trunks for legs, ideally weighs more than 240 lb, has enough length to cover true centers, knows how to box out and do the dirty work on the boards, not afraid of bumping players in the paint, and has enough agility to sometimes switch out to perimeter players.

[LeBowen]

The Spurs will always be plagued by Wemby’s physical limitations against brute players (big and small)

Now this is just nonsense.
The only bigs who got the better of Wemby were Jokic and AD, but Wemby also got his and had good statlines. And it's not like you can find someone better to defend those two.
He easily dominated the likes of Sabonis and Sengun who rely on physical play.
Zubac had that one game with 8 offensive rebounds, but I honestly can't be bothered checking if Wemby was on the floor for most of those. And he outplayed him in two other matchups.

Wemby's length is overwhelming enough to be the equalizer against players with more physical presence and they can't keep up with him on the other end.
Mind you we're talking about a second year player, you're really trying to push the narrative of his limitations against by far the best player in the league? The player who had to adjust his game because of Wemby's presence and won the matchup that way and not just by dominating physically? Jokic's biggest advantage was conditioning when he took over in the 4th and OT.

You can talk about strength limitations, but saying Spurs will always be plagued is just one of your edgy takes just because you like to be a contrarian.

We're losing rebounding battles because Wemby had to do it by himself most of the time and not because of his physical limitations. Unless you expect him to get 15rpg.

[Dejounte]

Now this is just nonsense.
The only bigs who got the better of Wemby were Jokic and AD, but Wemby also got his and had good statlines. And it's not like you can find someone better to defend those two.
He easily dominated the likes of Sabonis and Sengun who rely on physical play.
Zubac had that one game with 8 offensive rebounds, but I honestly can't be bothered checking if Wemby was on the floor for most of those. And he outplayed him in two other matchups.

Wemby's length is overwhelming enough to be the equalizer against players with more physical presence and they can't keep up with him on the other end.
Mind you we're talking about a second year player, you're really trying to push the narrative of his limitations against by far the best player in the league? The player who had to adjust his game because of Wemby's presence and won the matchup that way and not just by dominating physically? Jokic's biggest advantage was conditioning when he took over in the 4th and OT.

You can talk about strength limitations, but saying Spurs will always be plagued is just one of your edgy takes just because you like to be a contrarian.

We're losing rebounding battles because Wemby had to do it by himself most of the time and not because of his physical limitations. Unless you expect him to get 15rpg.
Yeah, it seems like you missed my point entirely but then made my point for me entirely with your last paragraph.

You read my post with the interpretation of me criticizing how well Wemby does in his 1 on 1 matchups. I don’t care about the one on one match up and who Wemby scored more or rebounded more against.

We are losing the rebound battles because Wemby has to do it by himself… FUCKING YES!

Who the fuck do you think will help him? Another twig like Jabari? Or another 3 pt shooting PF who stays away from the rim? Come on.

it feels like you’re close to getting it. Just got to connect these two dots, man.

[LeBowen]

Yeah, it seems like you missed my point entirely but then made my point for me entirely with your last paragraph.

You read my post with the interpretation of me criticizing how well Wemby does in his 1 on 1 matchups. I don’t care about the one on one match up and who Wemby scored more or rebounded more against.

I didn't miss your point, you missed your own point. You can't say that Spurs will be plagued by Wemby's physical limitations, no matter how you try to spin it.
Unless you expect Wemby to rebound 1v3 or whatever every game.


We are losing the rebound battles because Wemby has to do it by himself… FUCKING YES!

Everyone has been saying that all year long.


Who the fuck do you think will help him? Another twig like Jabari? Come on.

Funnily enough, Rockets are #1 in RPG this season.
Sengun, Jabari and Amen combine for 24.3.
Warriors are second, noone averages more than 6.2.

It can be done in different ways.
Castle will surely be one of the better rebounding guards in the league, if we get a SF who's also a great rebounder, we won't need a bruiser at PF spot, just someone who doesn't get bullied.

[Dejounte]

I didn't miss your point, you missed your own point. You can't say that Spurs will be plagued by Wemby's physical limitations, no matter how you try to spin it.
Unless you expect Wemby to rebound 1v3 or whatever every game.



Everyone has been saying that all year long.



Funnily enough, Rockets are #1 in RPG this season.
Sengun, Jabari and Amen combine for 24.3.
Warriors are second, noone averages more than 6.2.

It can be done in different ways.
Castle will surely be one of the better rebounding guards in the league, if we get a SF who's also a great rebounder, we won't need a bruiser at PF spot, just someone who doesn't get bullied.

You’re so focused on trying to be correct that you don’t see the layers of my argument. You think me saying Wemby is an imperfect human being with physical limitations is laying judgment on him as a whole. It’s not. It’s reality. Wemby, as we’ve seen all year, prefers to play on the wing on offense. That’s a fact. He also gets switched out on a perimeter player throughout a basketball game, whether by design, choice, or opposing team’s strategy. That’s also a fact. Both of these are due to his physical limitations. Oops, are those triggering words again? Let me say it in another way, then. Both of those are due to his size being taken advantage of whether by himself or the opposing team.

The Rockets, are again, a different team than the Spurs and play a completely different style that the Spurs are unable to play because they have WEMBY. This is another fact that can’t be glossed over. It’s not apples to apples and comparing them both is a disingenuous argument at best.

[Dejounte]

Are we seriously acting as if Wemby can run and run like the Rockets do when you all have made observations all year how he huffs and puffs and struggled with energy levels all year? Come on.

edit: why do I get the feeling that LeBowen is going to answer yes to this because he’s obsessed with winning the argument and not trying to understand the other person’s point? You win, man. You’re right? Happy?

[LeBowen]

You think me saying Wemby is an imperfect human being with physical limitations is laying judgment on him as a whole.

No, I just can't accept the "plagued on defense" thing because it sounds as if Wemby is a negative that needs to be compensated for.
His length is so overwhelming that it compensates for almost all of his lack of strength even in his second season.
Just watch the matchups against Jokic and how different Jokic's shots were compared to what he usually does just because he had to adjust to Wemby.
Yeah, physical bigs can back him down all the way under the basket, but he's so long that it doesn't really matter and there's only so few of those players it's not worth worrying about.
And even fewer of them will be able to hang with Wemby on the other end once we improve our spacing.
Like how's Zubac going to defend Fox/Castle going downhill while Wemby is his matchup?


Wemby, as we’ve seen all year, prefers to play on the wing on offense. That’s a fact.

Doesn't have anything to do with defense. I'd say that most coaches would completely eliminate bigs if defense and rim protection wasn't an issue.


He also gets switched out on a perimeter player throughout a basketball game, whether by design, choice, or opposing team’s strategy. That’s also a fact. Both of these are due to his physical limitations.

Every single big in the history of the game got switched on the perimeter, what's even your point?
Not even all-defense guards with similar size can stay with offensive superstars due to how the game is officiated, Wemby's ability to contest both 3pt shots and rim attacks with his length is more than enough for us not to worry about the scenarios you're writing about.


Oops, are those triggering words again?

No, plague was the trigger word, you made it sound as if he was a worse defender than LMA.


The Rockets, are again, a different team than the Spurs and play a completely different style that the Spurs are unable to play because they have WEMBY.

It doesn't matter who the C is if perimeter players are completely lost when it comes to defensive positioning and boxing out.
Wemby is a better rebounder and more mobile than Sengun, apples and oranges argument doesn't have anything to do with Spurs constantly being out of position after the shot goes up and having awful rebounding instincts.
They're just a bunch of ball-watchers, I'd argue that CP3 is the third best rebounder on the team after Wemby and Jeremy because he's the only perimeter player who knows where to move while the shot is going up and not wait for it to bounce off the rim.

[LeBowen]

Are we seriously acting as if Wemby can run and run like the Rockets do when you all have made observations all year how he huffs and puffs and struggled with energy levels all year? Come on.

I thought this argument was about defensive rebounding, not our style of play or pace?

You're a regular, you know that most of us agree Wemby's biggest issue is conditioning, but in your posts you make it sound as if he's not going to improve it.
Conditioning is different than strength.

Back to Jokic matchup, even though severely outmatched if we're talking strength, Wemby was fine for like 3 quarters while he still had stamina. Then he got ran over because fat man has better conditioning.

[cutewizard]

Chamberlain is the best center of all time tbh

[mo7888]

On this Wemby needing help rebounding topic, I agree with alot of the points being made here (from him needing help to him helping himself through conditioning). The one thing I may see a little differently is where this help comes from. There seems to be a consensus that this help needs to be in the form of a starting 4. While, I think that would be optimal, I think there are other options depending how we structure the rest of the team. For instance, a backup 4/5 who is a top notch rebounder can fit in a 3 man rotation very nicely and accomplish alot of what we want. Castle rebounding at the 2 and an improved rebounder from the 3 in the SL likewise can cover this shortcoming. I realize with some of this I'm preaching to the choir, so to speak, but those points seem lost in the debate a little bit so I thought I'd mention it.

[scott]

I’ll say it again. The Spurs need a strong PF that has tree trunks for legs, ideally weighs more than 240 lb, has enough length to cover true centers, knows how to box out and do the dirty work on the boards, not afraid of bumping players in the paint, and has enough agility to sometimes switch out to perimeter players.

Who is this mythical player? Keep in mind this guy needs to also be a good 3 point shooter.

For the most part, this position is kind of a "pick 2 of the 3" kind of thing, as someone who possesses all three of the following traits really doesn't exist and, if he does, is a max contract guy or on rookie deals/rookie extensions and aren't really attainable:

-3 pt shooter
-Good defender
-Good rebounder

Of this, who is who I think is reasonably attainable (meaning won't cost Castle and multiple FRPs, though some of these guys might be headed towards resigning with their current teams and may not *actually* be available). Whether or not these are the kind of defender you are talking about is another question.

All of the percentiles quoted are from CraftedNBA.com. The rebounding numbers are CraftedNBA's Rebounding Quality metric. 3P%s are this season's.

Toumani Camara - 37.8% 3P%, 91st % CraftedDPM, 92nd % OREB, 70th % DREB
Santi Aldama - 36.8% 3P%, 56th % CraftedDPM, 53rd % OREB, 36th % DREB
Tobias Harris - 33.6% 3P%, 86th % CraftedDPM, 72nd % OREB, 91% DREB
Naz Reid - 38.9% 3P%, 85th % CraftedDPM, 34th % OREB, 49th % DREB
Dean Wade - 35.2% 3P%, 97th % CraftedDPM, 50th % OREB, 88th % DREB
John Collins - 39.9% 3P%, 43rd % CraftedDPM, 78th % OREB, 87% DREB
Cam Johnson - 39.0% 3P%, 28th % CraftedDPM, 60th % OREB, 64th % DREB
Obi Toppin - 37.2% 3P%, 16th % CraftedDPM, 63rd % OREB, 41st % DREB
Jarace Walker - 38.5% 3P%, 64th % CraftedDPM, 22nd % OREB, 84th% DREB
Guerschon Yabusele - 38.3% 3P%, 19th % CraftedDPM, 37th % OREB, 43rd % DREB

The guy who seems to do all three things best is Camara (who I'd love to get), but is more your Versatile D Big and not the burly tree trunks for legs guy you describe (though maybe he can do that... I honestly don't know)

I'm with you that the guy you describe who can also shoot 3s would be awesome... but I think everyone in the league is searching for that same guy. Who is he? You pretty much have to "give" on at least one of the three criteria I laid out above. It's like the old saying "Cheap, Fast or Good... you can only pick 2".

[spurraider21]

if you are talking pure archetype, this is why Fleming would be a nice target with the Hawks pick. i think top 10 is too early for him, but if its very late lotto or in the mid-teens, i think he's a fair pick there.

[scott]

On this Wemby needing help rebounding topic, I agree with alot of the points being made here (from him needing help to him helping himself through conditioning). The one thing I may see a little differently is where this help comes from. There seems to be a consensus that this help needs to be in the form of a starting 4. While, I think that would be optimal, I think there are other options depending how we structure the rest of the team. For instance, a backup 4/5 who is a top notch rebounder can fit in a 3 man rotation very nicely and accomplish alot of what we want. Castle rebounding at the 2 and an improved rebounder from the 3 in the SL likewise can cover this shortcoming. I realize with some of this I'm preaching to the choir, so to speak, but those points seem lost in the debate a little bit so I thought I'd mention it.

Yeah I don't think we need Dennis Rodman to become a significantly better rebounding team. We just need a team that has had box outs drilled into their heads. We're actually a Top 10 team in Adjusted REB Chance %, but we are near the bottom in box outs and we're below the mid point in total rebounds per game... what does that tell me? We're just often not in a good position to get rebounds. If everyone could do a better job boxing out and lead to two more rebounds per game... all of a sudden we're a top 5 team in rebounds per game. The margins are that slim. I see the rebounding issue as more fundamental and less talent at this stage.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

if you are talking pure archetype, this is why Fleming would be a nice target with the Hawks pick. i think top 10 is too early for him, but if its very late lotto or in the mid-teens, i think he's a fair pick there.

You got it!

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Dejounte and Lebowen, both of you are right! You basically agree with each other. I enjoy reading analysis from both of you.

Basic conclusion: Spurs next season will be a solid team, easily top 5 in the west, even without the big/fast/shooter you both mentioned. But if we add a player and draft a player like that, we will be instant contender.

[poopbox]

The Rockets’ defensive scheme will be nowhere near similar to what the Spurs will ever run because of Wemby’s strengths and weaknesses. The Spurs will always be plagued by Wemby’s physical limitations against brute players (big and small), so they will need a player or players to counterbalance that. Does Jabari defend bigs well and is he a decent rebounder are valid questions based on what the Spurs need. We can’t keep losing the rebound battle. This isn’t only about being better than Sochan. That’s not enough for the Spurs to truly succeed. It’s also about finding the best fit.

I’ll say it again. The Spurs need a strong PF that has tree trunks for legs, ideally weighs more than 240 lb, has enough length to cover true centers, knows how to box out and do the dirty work on the boards, not afraid of bumping players in the paint, and has enough agility to sometimes switch out to perimeter players.

It's not 1985 anymore. Very few post players even play with their back to the basket. If Jabari can make it work next to Sengun who is a complete sieve on defense he will be fine next to Victor. It's not like we need these two guys to guard 5 other guys themselves. I actually think Jabari is the perfect player to put next to Wemby. Has enough of an offensive game to give him the ball and clear out against smaller players, will shoot open 3's and he would get a lot of them on the court with Fox and Wemby, and doesn't complain about touches or roles. He definitely get more minutes here than in Houston where they are trying to play 4 and 5 guys at the power forward position.
What "true centers"? There are like 5 in the league and two of them are Jokic and Embiid who will also initiate offense out of the triple threat away from the basket.

[Dejounte]

Who is this mythical player? Keep in mind this guy needs to also be a good 3 point shooter.

For the most part, this position is kind of a "pick 2 of the 3" kind of thing, as someone who possesses all three of the following traits really doesn't exist and, if he does, is a max contract guy or on rookie deals/rookie extensions and aren't really attainable:

-3 pt shooter
-Good defender
-Good rebounder

Of this, who is who I think is reasonably attainable (meaning won't cost Castle and multiple FRPs, though some of these guys might be headed towards resigning with their current teams and may not *actually* be available). Whether or not these are the kind of defender you are talking about is another question.

All of the percentiles quoted are from CraftedNBA.com. The rebounding numbers are CraftedNBA's Rebounding Quality metric. 3P%s are this season's.

Toumani Camara - 37.8% 3P%, 91st % CraftedDPM, 92nd % OREB, 70th % DREB
Santi Aldama - 36.8% 3P%, 56th % CraftedDPM, 53rd % OREB, 36th % DREB
Tobias Harris - 33.6% 3P%, 86th % CraftedDPM, 72nd % OREB, 91% DREB
Naz Reid - 38.9% 3P%, 85th % CraftedDPM, 34th % OREB, 49th % DREB
Dean Wade - 35.2% 3P%, 97th % CraftedDPM, 50th % OREB, 88th % DREB
John Collins - 39.9% 3P%, 43rd % CraftedDPM, 78th % OREB, 87% DREB
Cam Johnson - 39.0% 3P%, 28th % CraftedDPM, 60th % OREB, 64th % DREB
Obi Toppin - 37.2% 3P%, 16th % CraftedDPM, 63rd % OREB, 41st % DREB
Jarace Walker - 38.5% 3P%, 64th % CraftedDPM, 22nd % OREB, 84th% DREB
Guerschon Yabusele - 38.3% 3P%, 19th % CraftedDPM, 37th % OREB, 43rd % DREB

The guy who seems to do all three things best is Camara (who I'd love to get), but is more your Versatile D Big and not the burly tree trunks for legs guy you describe (though maybe he can do that... I honestly don't know)

I'm with you that the guy you describe who can also shoot 3s would be awesome... but I think everyone in the league is searching for that same guy. Who is he? You pretty much have to "give" on at least one of the three criteria I laid out above. It's like the old saying "Cheap, Fast or Good... you can only pick 2".

No, this player doesn’t need to “also be a 3 pt shooter”. You remove that filter and the list should widen.

I will respond more later…

[CGD]

Who is this mythical player? Keep in mind this guy needs to also be a good 3 point shooter.

For the most part, this position is kind of a "pick 2 of the 3" kind of thing, as someone who possesses all three of the following traits really doesn't exist and, if he does, is a max contract guy or on rookie deals/rookie extensions and aren't really attainable:

-3 pt shooter
-Good defender
-Good rebounder

Of this, who is who I think is reasonably attainable (meaning won't cost Castle and multiple FRPs, though some of these guys might be headed towards resigning with their current teams and may not *actually* be available). Whether or not these are the kind of defender you are talking about is another question.

All of the percentiles quoted are from CraftedNBA.com. The rebounding numbers are CraftedNBA's Rebounding Quality metric. 3P%s are this season's.

Toumani Camara - 37.8% 3P%, 91st % CraftedDPM, 92nd % OREB, 70th % DREB
Santi Aldama - 36.8% 3P%, 56th % CraftedDPM, 53rd % OREB, 36th % DREB
Tobias Harris - 33.6% 3P%, 86th % CraftedDPM, 72nd % OREB, 91% DREB
Naz Reid - 38.9% 3P%, 85th % CraftedDPM, 34th % OREB, 49th % DREB
Dean Wade - 35.2% 3P%, 97th % CraftedDPM, 50th % OREB, 88th % DREB
John Collins - 39.9% 3P%, 43rd % CraftedDPM, 78th % OREB, 87% DREB
Cam Johnson - 39.0% 3P%, 28th % CraftedDPM, 60th % OREB, 64th % DREB
Obi Toppin - 37.2% 3P%, 16th % CraftedDPM, 63rd % OREB, 41st % DREB
Jarace Walker - 38.5% 3P%, 64th % CraftedDPM, 22nd % OREB, 84th% DREB
Guerschon Yabusele - 38.3% 3P%, 19th % CraftedDPM, 37th % OREB, 43rd % DREB

The guy who seems to do all three things best is Camara (who I'd love to get), but is more your Versatile D Big and not the burly tree trunks for legs guy you describe (though maybe he can do that... I honestly don't know)

I'm with you that the guy you describe who can also shoot 3s would be awesome... but I think everyone in the league is searching for that same guy. Who is he? You pretty much have to "give" on at least one of the three criteria I laid out above. It's like the old saying "Cheap, Fast or Good... you can only pick 2".

It’s Jarabi Smith Jr

[CGD]

No, this player doesn’t need to “also be a 3 pt shooter”. You remove that filter and the list should widen.

I will respond more later…

He kinda does, if the vision is to start a Fox/Castle backcourt.

[scott]

No, this player doesn’t need to “also be a 3 pt shooter”. You remove that filter and the list should widen.

I will respond more later…

Okay, then I disagree that is what we need (and that's okay)

[scott]

It’s Jarabi Smith Jr

Jabari Smith Jr - 35.6% 3P%, 52nd % CraftedDPM, 67th % OREB, 65th % DREB

I think Jabari is just as good an option (aside from the fact that he is likely not attainable) as any of those other guys... but he's not really the mythical creature either, IMO.

Camara is the guy who I'd most want to inquire about. He's on such a steal of a contract though that he might be untouchable (I've talked before about how guys with absurd bargain contracts become more valuable than their on the court value actually dictates. Camara, Keon Ellis, even Champ are examples of this).

[Manu&Duncan fan]

No, this player doesn’t need to “also be a 3 pt shooter”. You remove that filter and the list should widen.

I will respond more later…

If that big guy is not a 3-point shooter, our ceiling is West Conference Finals, because we won't beat Thunders. if that big guy is Big, fast and 3-point shooter, then our ceiling is a NBA title. Basically we will be unbeatable.

[Ice009]

What do you think it would take to get Jabari Smith Jr? Sounds like he would be a really good fit on the Spurs. Better fit than on the Rockets.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

What do you think it would take to get Jabari Smith Jr? Sounds like he would be a really good fit on the Spurs. Better fit than on the Rockets.

The price will be too high that it scares Spurs away. Because Rockets would want to ship him somewhere else.

[ambchang]

Jabari Smith Jr - 35.6% 3P%, 52nd % CraftedDPM, 67th % OREB, 65th % DREB

I think Jabari is just as good an option (aside from the fact that he is likely not attainable) as any of those other guys... but he's not really the mythical creature either, IMO.

Camara is the guy who I'd most want to inquire about. He's on such a steal of a contract though that he might be untouchable (I've talked before about how guys with absurd bargain contracts become more valuable than their on the court value actually dictates. Camara, Keon Ellis, even Champ are examples of this).

There is no way in a million years Portland will trade him.

[exstatic]

The price will be too high that it scares Spurs away. Because Rockets would want to ship him somewhere else.

The Spurs might have a shot in a multiple team trade. I agree that Houston would be unlikely to trade him straight up to us, but in a shuffle to get Book? They’ll need to ship some contracts out, and we may throw in some assets and ending contracts to intercept him.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The Spurs might have a shot in a multiple team trade. I agree that Houston would be unlikely to trade him straight up to us, but in a shuffle to get Book? They’ll need to ship some contracts out, and we may throw in some assets and ending contracts to intercept him.

That will be nice!