Game Thread: Wemby vs FIBA Patty

[LeBowen]

Might aswell make a topic, this one is about to start.

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[LeBowen]

Every French possession when Wemby doesn't get the ball is tragic.

Patty is the best guard on the floor, lmao.

[Pauleta14]

If I'm the opposite coach, the game plan is easy vs France, just make Gobert their go to guy on offense :lol

[LeBowen]

I just don't understand French coach and his persistance on this bench lineup with 6'9 Lessort at C.
Is it that hard to stagger Wemby and Gobert in a 40 minute game so one of them is always on the floor? And have Wemby play some minutes with Lessort since Lessort and Gobert can't play together.

[Pauleta14]

I just don't understand French coach and his persistance on this bench lineup with 6'9 Lessort at C.
Is it that hard to stagger Wemby and Gobert in a 40 minute game so one of them is always on the floor? And have Wemby play some minutes with Lessort since Lessort and Gobert can't play together.

That's bc the coach doesn't have balls

It's obvious Gobert should be on the bench most of the time Wemby is on the floor

They'll probably realise it when it's too late

[lefty20]

Is it really that hard to stagger Wemby and Gobert? France was incapable of securing a rebound at the end of the 3rd Q with both of them on the bench.

Did Wemby really only take 1 shot in the 3rd Q?

France coaching staff trynna tank for Cooper Flagg or something?

[LeBowen]

Wemby is easily the best playmaker on French team, noone else makes that bounce pass.

They don't look good at all, if they weren't playing at home, I wouldn't give them much chance to get a medal.

[r0drig0lac]

Wemby is a monster

[mudyez]

Kay the human fouling machine

[mudyez]

I was 100% sure FIBA Patty was gonna sink this shot.

[Pauleta14]

What kind of defense is that ffs

[ace3g]

Terrible defense...

[LeBowen]

Wemby with 17/12/8, wasn't enough to overcome FIBA Patty and his 24 points.

Dyson Daniels with the game-winning layup, amazing scheme to have Wemby on the inbound and Gobert away from the basket when you're just 1 point up.

[TD 21]

:lmao At Collet running Ntilikina off of staggered screens for a catch and shoot 3 (a player who fell out of the NBA because of his inability to be so much as a reliable spot up 3-point shooter) with less than a minute to go in a one possession game.

Seeing Turiaf reminds me of my dumbest take on SpursTalk, which was preferring him over Diaw in the '12 buyout market.

[Spurs Homer]

De- culo sucks balls...

turnover on offense followed by

turnover after batum- gets the ball and hands it to him - he loses it out of bounds -

followed by shitty defense on dyson daniels who he allows to roll freely to the basket for a layup/winning basket


he should retire
asshole

[Pauleta14]

If at least this summer can allow Wemby to be freed from Collet for the rest of his career...

[emanueldavidginobili]

Another painful game to watch from France, its a cluster fuck every time down the court on offense for them.

[CorrectCrusader]

French coach might be worse than pop

[Limguogolo]

Colletive failure.

It's going to be difficult to explain what the team's worst defender was doing on the floor for the last possession with 2.5 seconds left on the baseline. At this point, Kamala Harris would do a better job than Collet.

I would dream of seeing the French team play with the intelligence of South Sudan. Intelligence is making things simple, not complicating them. You have possession, you run, you drive, you pass to the open player if you don't make the difference, and you shoot. Simple, effective.

Have you ever played French billiards? Three balls, no holes, one “dick” (literally how the stick is called). This sums up quite simply the French basketball team.

[Pauleta14]

Colletive failure.

It's going to be difficult to explain what the team's worst defender was doing on the floor for the last possession with 2.5 seconds left on the baseline. At this point, Kamala Harris would do a better job than Collet.

I would dream of seeing the French team play with the intelligence of South Sudan. Intelligence is making things simple, not complicating them. You have possession, you run, you drive, you pass to the open player if you don't make the difference, and you shoot. Simple, effective.

Have you ever played French billiards? Three balls, no holes, one “dick” (literally how the stick is called). This sums up quite simply the French basketball team.

Bro... :lmao

It's called a "queue" in french and it's the same word that UK & US use.

It's not called a "dick", we just use the word "queue" as a synonym of "dick"

I get the analogy attempt tho ^^

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

wait is france still a country now?

[timtonymanu]

Seeing Turiaf reminds me of my dumbest take on SpursTalk, which was preferring him over Diaw in the '12 buyout market.

I wanted him too even though Diaw was clearly the better fit. Bobcats Diaw towards the end of his stay really let himself go so I thought that he would bring that to the Spurs. The Spurs rejuvenated him.

[MultiTroll]

As always the main game question is

How did Wemby look?

[Obstructed_View]

I wanted him too even though Diaw was clearly the better fit. Bobcats Diaw towards the end of his stay really let himself go so I thought that he would bring that to the Spurs. The Spurs rejuvenated him.

Yeah, Diaw looked like he hated life and didn't give a shit about basketball anymore. His attitude was as poor as his conditioning.

[Limguogolo]

Bro... :lmao

It's called a "queue" in french and it's the same word that UK & US use.

It's not called a "dick", we just use the word "queue" as a synonym of "dick"

I get the analogy attempt tho ^^
Anything long and made of wood is a "stick" for me.


“we just use the word “queue” as a synonym of dick”. I don't get it, whatever. I guess I missed my Dick Reverse attempt.

[Limguogolo]

As always the main game question is

How did Wemby look?
Like always. Wemby things. He plays more PG than C delivering nice assists. Shots coming from nowhere (long distance). No play near the basket (or on off reb). And stupid TO on the dribble. Usual regular season Spurs game.

[Ice009]

Wemby with 17/12/8, wasn't enough to overcome FIBA Patty and his 24 points.

Dyson Daniels with the game-winning layup, amazing scheme to have Wemby on the inbound and Gobert away from the basket when you're just 1 point up.

Darn it. I shouldn't have read the thread as I was just watching the game now and it's the start of the 4th quarter. I don't really want to watch the rest of it if Patty ended up outplaying Victor :(.

Are blocks harder to come by in FIBA, can anyone comment on that? I don't think I've seen Victor block one shot.


If at least this summer can allow Wemby to be freed from Collet for the rest of his career...

Is Collet not coaching the French NT anymore after these Olympics?

[Ice009]

Like always. Wemby things. He plays more PG than C delivering nice assists. Shots coming from nowhere (long distance). No play near the basket (or on off reb). And stupid TO on the dribble. Usual regular season Spurs game.

So do you think he needs to play inside more and dribble less?

[Dejounte]

It’s really hurting the team and Wemby’s overall game that he’s not playing center.

[Limguogolo]

So do you think he needs to play inside more and dribble less?
He is twenty years old. I hope he avoids it in an important match, otherwise he has to go through it to find out what his limits are. Dribbling when you're that big doesn't just involve dexterity. For the moment, I always prefer him associated with another big precisely because he has a way of making another big great better. Especially in the French team where at least part of the time the association with Gobert does not seem so interesting to me. If it is to play with another interior who is not good either in attack or defense, you might as well fill another position on the wing and leave Victor alone on the interior, especially in NBA game (the bigs are great in FNT, so no, Victor should play with another big).


The problem if we want Victor alone near the circle is that some players know that it is imperative to prevent him from accessing the area. In FIBA, it's even simpler: the defense is more aggressive than in the NBA and the spaces are less important. Victor can therefore only find himself in the paint after a pick and roll or after various changes on defense, which would mean that the attack is moving well, but this is not the case with guards also struggling to hold the ball. Playing C or PF will not change the story. It's especially up to Victor to take advantage when he has the ball not far from the paint to use his dexterity and body play to get closer to the circle. This would at least cause mistakes. I'm fine with him losing the ball from time to time in this situation, but there's a difference between trying a move to get close while being aggressive and dribbling in a fancy manner which is more about improvising and not seeing the help on defense. In other words, yes, it's more of a version (but with more shot skill) from before January what we're seeing at the moment in EDF (a lot of shots outside the paint). I can live with it. This Victor's version is OK in FIBA and he remains the best player with Yabusele.

I can live with four or five turn-overs by Victor if he delivers as many assists and if he has the ball a lot. Guards lose the ball so much with stupid pass attempts, so... It's not all black or white. On the other hand, there is no longer much doubt that it would be much less dark without Collet with his French billiards strategy with three balls and no holes not adapted to instinctive and sometimes distracted players.


For the block, it is the combined effect of his presence and Gobert. Apart from the last basket taken on a static attack where the Australian interior took Gobert out of the paint while Victor was put on the baseline by Collet, the opponents will not risk themselves in the paint other than on a counter-attack.

[Ice009]

He is twenty years old. I hope he avoids it in an important match, otherwise he has to go through it to find out what his limits are. Dribbling when you're that big doesn't just involve dexterity. For the moment, I always prefer him associated with another big precisely because he has a way of making another big great better. Especially in the French team where at least part of the time the association with Gobert does not seem so interesting to me. If it is to play with another interior who is not good either in attack or defense, you might as well fill another position on the wing and leave Victor alone on the interior, especially in NBA game (the bigs are great in FNT, so no, Victor should play with another big).

OK, so I understand where you're coming from in most of what you said and it makes sense. Just the first paragraph, I'm a little unsure what you mean. You said he makes another big great better. Do you mean only if that other big is a good player. And then you say you don't like the pairing with Gobert all that much? Is that because you don't consider Gobert a great big. I'm confused with your first paragraph. Who on the French national team do you consider good enough to play with Victor as another big man that would work well with him? Yabusele?


The problem if we want Victor alone near the circle is that some players know that it is imperative to prevent him from accessing the area. In FIBA, it's even simpler: the defense is more aggressive than in the NBA and the spaces are less important. Victor can therefore only find himself in the paint after a pick and roll or after various changes on defense, which would mean that the attack is moving well, but this is not the case with guards also struggling to hold the ball. Playing C or PF will not change the story. It's especially up to Victor to take advantage when he has the ball not far from the paint to use his dexterity and body play to get closer to the circle. This would at least cause mistakes. I'm fine with him losing the ball from time to time in this situation, but there's a difference between trying a move to get close while being aggressive and dribbling in a fancy manner which is more about improvising and not seeing the help on defense. In other words, yes, it's more of a version (but with more shot skill) from before January what we're seeing at the moment in EDF (a lot of shots outside the paint). I can live with it. This Victor's version is OK in FIBA and he remains the best player with Yabusele.

OK, thanks for explaining this as I don't know a lot of the FIBA style of play. So space isn't as important in FIBA like in the NBA? And playing C or PF won't change this much for him getting more room to operate. And that is a very good point about when he should or shouldn't try and handle the ball. I'd agree with you there about doing it closer to the paint to get closer to the rim and either score or draw the foul.


I can live with four or five turn-overs by Victor if he delivers as many assists and if he has the ball a lot. Guards lose the ball so much with stupid pass attempts, so... It's not all black or white. On the other hand, there is no longer much doubt that it would be much less dark without Collet with his French billiards strategy with three balls and no holes not adapted to instinctive and sometimes distracted players.

I haven't watched every minute of these warmup games, but it looks to me, his guards are terrible passers and Victor looks like one of the best passers on the team. I'd rather he be the guy to make more of the plays than any of the current guards the team has.



For the block, it is the combined effect of his presence and Gobert. Apart from the last basket taken on a static attack where the Australian interior took Gobert out of the paint while Victor was put on the baseline by Collet, the opponents will not risk themselves in the paint other than on a counter-attack.

So because Gobert and Victor are out there, they're not getting challenged much? I was sort of asking, just in general, is there many blocks in FIBA games, or not really?

[CorrectCrusader]

It’s really hurting the team and Wemby’s overall game that he’s not playing center.

Yep, he's so far beyond Rudy at this point already it's insane.

[couchman]

Wemby will benefit from the NBA spacing and touchy refs but after enough of these games for France we definitely see turnovers continue to be an issue.

The question the Spurs and Wemby should be thinking about for the long term in his development is whether they think he can be the primary playmaker or whether he needs to be the finisher with someone else being that playmaker.
If you want Wemby to be a primary playmaker then you have to let him continue to make these mistakes, take potentially inefficient shots, and turn it over a lot until he figures out what he can and can't do and develops skills around that.
If you want to build him into an elite finisher with someone else being the primary playmaker then you start to coach him towards efficiency in shot selection AND reduction of TO's.
I'm in favor of a soft tank this season, so my preference is to continue letting Wemby figure it out and developing his game as a primary playmaker for the long term, even if it hurts his short term efficiency and TO numbers.

On the plus side, he's shooting almost 80% on 2pt fgs and 40% on 3s so far in international play.

[Limguogolo]

OK, so I understand where you're coming from in most of what you said and it makes sense. Just the first paragraph, I'm a little unsure what you mean. You said he makes another big great better. Do you mean only if that other big is a good player. And then you say you don't like the pairing with Gobert all that much? Is that because you don't consider Gobert a great big. I'm confused with your first paragraph. Who on the French national team do you consider good enough to play with Victor as another big man that would work well with him? Yabusele?


Sorry for the confusion, I missed my double negative. No, unlike Pauleta here, I have no problem with the association with Gobert. With the Mets, he played with another good big at the start of the season, and he was very good playing PF. Like Duncan, I also think he prefers not to be considered a C and to play with a big. Victor needs his Nazr Mohammed or his Nesterović. I know he started to have more of an impact from January when he was alone inside, but it was a matter of circumstances. Having a more massive interior at his side does not prevent Victor from being more aggressive towards the rim. In any case, it would be a mistake if with the Spurs, Pop definitively forbade himself from this option.


To be frank, I didn't have time to look at which French interior seemed best to me apart from Gobert. The most obvious seems to be Lessort since he can't shoot long distance.


Space is important in FIBA ​. The paint is just more closed and the defense in general more intense. But there would be much better specialists able to explain that.


De Colo is an excellent passer, Batum too. But De Colo also tends to dare too many complicated passes. The problem perhaps lies more in the general quality of play of the guards: between their difficulty or lack of will to attack and their simply inability to shoot. A good passer is not simply a player capable of sending the ball where it is needed, it is knowing how to attack defenses to disrupt them and then making the right choice if the defense comes to him. If the guards never attack with drives or shots, they are easy targets for defenders who will not hesitate to harass them. In my opinion, it is often the first to initiate the movement that has an advantage. However, the French guards are never provocative or proactive. Because Collet's systems don't allow it: they stop playing and watch a guard or a forward take advantage of a screen, turn all around the defense to finally get the ball... Rarely seen such a repeated, ineffective and telegraphed system. A possession where the feet of the guard who has the ball are statics, for me, is a possession that has already been annihilated, a high risk of turnover. It's less a problem of a good passer than a problem of spontaneity, of taking initiative, of the desire to attack, of attacking the defense, of movement. French Team systems are punched cards printed with a medieval punch hole in the semiconductor era.


I don't see why there would be fewer blocks in FIBA ​. Blocks do not constitute the alpha and omega of good defense in any case. When a player refuses to challenge the two rim protectors, it is not visible in the stats.

[Pauleta14]

Anything long and made of wood is a "stick" for me.


“we just use the word “queue” as a synonym of dick”. I don't get it, whatever. I guess I missed my Dick Reverse attempt.

Haha, you're right except it's not limited to wood stuff but anything long than could be used as an analogy...

"Faire la queue" ou "queue de billard" c'est la meme idee d'un truc long :lmao

[Pauleta14]

Like always. Wemby things. He plays more PG than C delivering nice assists. Shots coming from nowhere (long distance). No play near the basket (or on off reb). And stupid TO on the dribble. Usual regular season Spurs game.

As much as I love seing his versatility and talent, I'm wondering if it's not too much by default bc of the lack of skills of his teammates.

In the end he can't do it all but he's such a cheat code I'm not sure what to think about it tbh...

[Pauleta14]

Is Collet not coaching the French NT anymore after these Olympics?

Just me copping after the horrible spectacle this team offers unfortunately.

Collet has his job for life, as much bc of lack of competition (no french elite coaches) than french basketball federation's culture.

Trying to find silver linings to the potential massive failure in the Olympics. THAT could maybe end Collet, but again there are no french possible replacements and leaders are too proud (at best) to hire an elite foreigner (like so many nations like Italy Sapin etc did to grow in the past)

[Pauleta14]

Wemby will benefit from the NBA spacing and touchy refs but after enough of these games for France we definitely see turnovers continue to be an issue.

The question the Spurs and Wemby should be thinking about for the long term in his development is whether they think he can be the primary playmaker or whether he needs to be the finisher with someone else being that playmaker.
If you want Wemby to be a primary playmaker then you have to let him continue to make these mistakes, take potentially inefficient shots, and turn it over a lot until he figures out what he can and can't do and develops skills around that.
If you want to build him into an elite finisher with someone else being the primary playmaker then you start to coach him towards efficiency in shot selection AND reduction of TO's.
I'm in favor of a soft tank this season, so my preference is to continue letting Wemby figure it out and developing his game as a primary playmaker for the long term, even if it hurts his short term efficiency and TO numbers.

On the plus side, he's shooting almost 80% on 2pt fgs and 40% on 3s so far in international play.

2 things...

1, Even if his future was as a playmaker, he's good bro, barely 20 and keeps getting better with already above average skillset

2, Whatever u see now as much with Spurs last season than FNT now shouldn't be over interpreted bc of the lack of PG or any playmaking talent surrounding him that are the main reason he's taking so many playmaking responsabilities.

Wemby is by far the most talented passer of the French and Spurs rosters. It shouldn't be the case

We'll see huge differences thanks to CP3 but imo it would be stupid not to use Vic's incredible passing abilities when he's always towering everybody...

[LeBowen]

There are many elements to playmaking.
Wemby is a great passer, has amazing vision, but his execution is sometimes lacking, passes are too optimistic. Still, nothing to worry about and he'll definitely be one of the best passing bigs ever, right below Jokic.
The thing is that no player of his size can dribble like 6 foot guards. The ball is simply not safe and he'll often get stripped, no matter how much he improves. Jokic rarely beats anyone off the dribble or does any advanced moves.

He shouldn't try to dribble like a guard unless he's isoing against a slower big and there's no danger of guards with quick hand stripping him.
But so far he had to do it because neither Spurs nor France had good enough playmaking that will get him the ball in good positions. It's just beyond frustrating to watch ho he can't get any service while he's in good positions around the paint.
CP3 will solve that for us.
Then Wemby becomes a great playmaker from inside the paint. He shouldn't be the initiator.

[exstatic]

Wemby will benefit from the NBA spacing and touchy refs but after enough of these games for France we definitely see turnovers continue to be an issue.

The question the Spurs and Wemby should be thinking about for the long term in his development is whether they think he can be the primary playmaker or whether he needs to be the finisher with someone else being that playmaker.
If you want Wemby to be a primary playmaker then you have to let him continue to make these mistakes, take potentially inefficient shots, and turn it over a lot until he figures out what he can and can't do and develops skills around that.
If you want to build him into an elite finisher with someone else being the primary playmaker then you start to coach him towards efficiency in shot selection AND reduction of TO's.
I'm in favor of a soft tank this season, so my preference is to continue letting Wemby figure it out and developing his game as a primary playmaker for the long term, even if it hurts his short term efficiency and TO numbers.

On the plus side, he's shooting almost 80% on 2pt fgs and 40% on 3s so far in international play.

The thing is, if he’s being spoonfed things to finish, he’ll never be an MVP, and certainly not the GOAT. He needs to go through these growing pains in order to learn how to create for himself and for others. He’ll never be great if he doesn’t.

[TD 21]

No, unlike Pauleta here, I have no problem with the association with Gobert. With the Mets, he played with another good big at the start of the season, and he was very good playing PF. Like Duncan, I also think he prefers not to be considered a C and to play with a big. Victor needs his Nazr Mohammed or his Nesterović. I know he started to have more of an impact from January when he was alone inside, but it was a matter of circumstances. Having a more massive interior at his side does not prevent Victor from being more aggressive towards the rim. In any case, it would be a mistake if with the Spurs, Pop definitively forbade himself from this option.

Different era. Two C lineups haven't been good enough offensively to win at the highest level with in a long time. Not even the best shooting C (Towns) could make it work (Timberwolves were 16th offensively).

Even back then, post Robinson, the Spurs almost always closed with a stretch four and if they really got pushed/in trouble in the playoffs, oftentimes altogether did away with two C lineups.

[Pauleta14]

There are many elements to playmaking.
Wemby is a great passer, has amazing vision, but his execution is sometimes lacking, passes are too optimistic. Still, nothing to worry about and he'll definitely be one of the best passing bigs ever, right below Jokic.
The thing is that no player of his size can dribble like 6 foot guards. The ball is simply not safe and he'll often get stripped, no matter how much he improves. Jokic rarely beats anyone off the dribble or does any advanced moves.

He shouldn't try to dribble like a guard unless he's isoing against a slower big and there's no danger of guards with quick hand stripping him.
But so far he had to do it because neither Spurs nor France had good enough playmaking that will get him the ball in good positions. It's just beyond frustrating to watch ho he can't get any service while he's in good positions around the paint.
CP3 will solve that for us.
Then Wemby becomes a great playmaker from inside the paint. He shouldn't be the initiator.

He'll evolve but will never change.

The same way Manu was Manu, you have to take the good with the bad. He'll never be a "safe" player, he'll always try crazy shit

I hope Pop doesn't waste as much time as he did with Manu, but he seems to have gotten it tbh

[Pauleta14]

No, unlike Pauleta here, I have no problem with the association with Gobert. With the Mets, he played with another good big at the start of the season, and he was very good playing PF. Like Duncan, I also think he prefers not to be considered a C and to play with a big. Victor needs his Nazr Mohammed or his Nesterović. I know he started to have more of an impact from January when he was alone inside, but it was a matter of circumstances. Having a more massive interior at his side does not prevent Victor from being more aggressive towards the rim. In any case, it would be a mistake if with the Spurs, Pop definitively forbade himself from this option.

Just to be clear, I'm not against the idea, I'm just against the profile of Gobert. Vic needs a big with a good technique, that can put the ball on the floor, pass and score.

Gobert is too limited and there are no better profile in the NT, hence my pov, Wemby should be used the same way Spurs did, as a defensive anchor and use speed and passing with wings and guards.

That's the only way we can make it tough on our opponents imho

[rjv]

patty is a FIBA goat.

[MultiTroll]

Is Collet not coaching the French NT anymore after these Olympics?


Just me copping after the horrible spectacle this team offers unfortunately.

Collet has his job for life, as much bc of lack of competition (no french elite coaches) than french basketball federation's culture.
How far back in time do we have to go to when Wama had a good head coach?
Or has he ever had one?

[Ice009]

patty is a FIBA goat.

How if the h*ll does he play so well in FIBA? It's ridiculous how he dominates there, but doesn't come close to doing the same in the NBA. I just remembered that is was during the last Olympics that KD and the Nets recruited him hard after they saw his performances there.

[exstatic]

How if the h*ll does he play so well in FIBA? It's ridiculous how he dominates there, but doesn't come close to doing the same in the NBA. I just remembered that is was during the last Olympics that KD and the Nets recruited him hard after they saw his performances there.

Someone on a pod pointed out that one of the reasons the FIBA game is foreign to us is that teams are either guard or big centric, unlike the NBA which is wing and big wing centric. We’re not used to chasing a dominant guard all game who can put the team on his back and win it. Probably one of the reasons the Warriors were so effective. They’re guard centric and share the ball.

[Ice009]

I guess that is as good an explanation as any if you're comparing to the current NBA. I guess I'm still lost in the big man days of Hakeem, Shaq, D-Rob, Alonzo, then the new guys TD, KG, Dirk, Webber, Rasheed (sorry if I missed someone). I guess that's the era I grew up with. Didn't watch it before (too young and no access to see the games - still didn't get to see the games of these guys, but at least was able to follow it) and didn't watch is as much recently, either.

[rjv]

what is funny is listening to Turiaf translate what Collet is saying during timeouts and then watching the team go back out there and not do any of what he is telling them to do (i.e., get the damn ball to Wemby).

[exstatic]

what is funny is listening to Turiaf translate what Collet is saying during timeouts and then watching the team go back out there and not do any of what he is telling them to do (i.e., get the damn ball to Wemby).

If Collet had roster input or control, he has only himself to blame. Picking some younger guys like Traore probably would have resulted in them listening to him.