BSPN: Ranking The Top 25 NBA Players Of The 21st Century

[TD 21]

Ranking the top 25 NBA players of the 21st century - ESPN (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40616441/ranking-top-25-nba-players-21st-century)

Without their bias and propaganda . . .

Tier 1: James
Tier 2: Duncan, O'Neal
Tier 3: Bryant, Durant, Curry
Tier 4: Garnett, Jokic, Nowitzki, Wade, Antetokounmpo
Tier 5: Paul, Harden, P. Gasol, Ginobili, Davis, Scumbag
Tier 6: Doncic, Nash, Kidd, Parker, Green, Iverson, Allen, Westbrook

[Joseph Kony]

i assume if tim's first couple seasons were in the 21st century he'd be #2 at worst on this list

[Seventyniner]

Technically the 21st century didn't start until January 1, 2001 so the first of the Kobe/Shaq titles shouldn't affect the rankings.

[DAF86]

Kobe is the most overrated player ever, tbh.

[FlAVaK]

Which Green are you talking about? LDN, Jeff or even Gerald would be ok. But keep the mouthbreather off of that list...

[couchman]

If we are counting their entire careers
1. Lebron
T2. TD & Steph
4. Kobe
5. Shaq
6. Jokic
7. KG

[LeBowen]

You look at the rosters Steph and Kobe missed the playoffs with, then you look at some of the rosters Timmy won 50 games with and won playoff series, even a ring since '03 roster was arguably the worst supporting cast out of any championship roster ever.

[scott]

While I'd move Tim to #2, I think Kobe and Steph belong in the same tier as Timmy and Shaq. Honestly I think Dirk, Pau and AI are getting the biggest disrespect on this list. Pau and AI should go ahead of Harden, IMO, and Dirk probably right behind KG.

[SpursFan86]

Kobe over Duncan doesn’t surprise me - it’s obviously wildly inaccurate but Kobe has always been massively overrated by the media and his unfortunate passing only exacerbated that. But I can’t believe they put Steph over Duncan too.

I mostly agree with OP’s tiers. I’d probably lean towards moving KG and Jokic into the third tier if we’re solely talking about impact on the court and putting less important on accolades. Once you get into tiers 4-6 it gets really into “splitting hairs” territory.

[LeBowen]

He won only one ring and it looks like Nuggets roster is getting worse each year, but Jokic is easily a top5 player in the past 25 years for me.

In 21-22 season his supporting cast was Aaron Gordon, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Will Barton, Bones Hyland, Jamychal Green, Austin Rivers, Campazzo, Davon Reed, Bryn Forbes and Zeke Nnaji.
In 23-24 season none of those players except Gordon had a relevant role, most of them either out of the league or barely hanging on. And none of them except Jeff Green were too old or seriously injured.
He won 47 games with that roster and had 6th best offense.

His playoff stats and performances are beyond ridiculous, noone has had so few bad games in the playoffs.

Timmy, Shaq, Steph and Kobe are the only players who have a case to be above him on this list, imo.
He's a clearly better and more consistent performer than everyone else. Noone else would've been able to win a ring with such poor supporting cast other than Timmy and Shaq.

[TD 21]

Kobe over Duncan doesn’t surprise me - it’s obviously wildly inaccurate but Kobe has always been massively overrated by the media and his unfortunate passing only exacerbated that. But I can’t believe they put Steph over Duncan too.

I mostly agree with OP’s tiers. I’d probably lean towards moving KG and Jokic into the third tier if we’re solely talking about impact on the court and putting less important on accolades. Once you get into tiers 4-6 it gets really into “splitting hairs” territory.

Not surprised. Golden Boy has joined Bryant as their ultimate pets. Essentially, this is BSPN's payment for their both being good for business and highly accessible (so they could control the narrative and have these unprofessional pawns doing what they were now, which is overrating and mythologizing them incessantly).

Agreed. Jokic is the fifth best player I've ever seen (Jordan and James in either order, Duncan, O'Neal), but needs more longevity.

Garnett, my only quibble is his offensive game wasn't conducive to being the hub a championship offense in the way all the others ranked above were.

[DAF86]

You look at the rosters Steph and Kobe missed the playoffs with, then you look at some of the rosters Timmy won 50 games with and won playoff series, even a ring since '03 roster was arguably the worst supporting cast out of any championship roster ever.

I know neither Rob, Manu nor Tony were in their primes, but greatness is greatneass and it still manifests itself in some way. There's not a chance in hell a supporting cast that had 3 future hall of famers can ever be categorized as the worst ever in any category.

[LeBowen]

I know neither Rob, Manu nor Tony were in their primes, but greatness is greatneass and it still manifests itself in some way. There's not a chance in hell a supporting cast that had 3 future hall of famers can ever be categorized as the worst ever in any category.

Obviously they showed flashes, but it was a ridiculous carry job.

https://i.imgur.com/RFzFaeY.png

Those are playoff stats for '03 run.

Dirk had Jet averaging 17ppg on 44% from 3pt in 2011.
Hakeem's supporting cast was poor in '94, but they were all in their primes and 4 of them averaged 11ppg.

[KobesAchilles]

1. Bron
2-4 any order you want; TD, Kobe, Shaq
5. Steph
6. Jokic
7. Dirk
8. KD
9. Giannis
10. Scumbag
KG is not a top 10 player from the 00s. Dude is extremely overrated on most all time lists

[DAF86]

1. Bron
2-4 any order you want; TD, Kobe, Shaq
5. Steph
6. Jokic
7. Dirk
8. KD
9. Giannis
10. Scumbag
KG is not a top 10 player from the 00s. Dude is extremely overrated on most all time lists

This is ignorant coming from anyone, but it is specially bad coming from a Spurs fan. There isn't any reasonable argument to have Kobe over Duncan, even taking out the 99 season.

[John B]

I stop reading any list with LeSoft on top

[scott]

I stop reading any list with LeSoft on top

Honestly, you should stop reading any list that doesn't have LeBron at the top of the greatest players of the 21st century. Like... c'mon man.

[benefactor]

Honestly, you should stop reading any list that doesn't have LeBron at the top of the greatest players of the 21st century. Like... c'mon man.
He's probably a Jordan stan. They hate LeBron with a passion.

[scott]

He's probably a Jordan stan. They hate LeBron with a passion.

Anyone who uses "LeSoft" is clearly just a hater, but trying argue he isn't the best of the 21st century is just making yourself look stupid.

[John B]

Anyone who uses "LeSoft" is clearly just a hater, but trying argue he isn't the best of the 21st century is just making yourself look stupid.

I’m not going to argue with Bron’s followers. But simply argue that Timmy is better. Never missed playoffs in a small market, 50+ wins every single year without other top players. Anybody on that list comes close??

[Proxy]

TD and Shaq belong over Kobe and Steph tbh

guess this settles the manu vs enrique debate

[Proxy]

ray over FMVPs, DPOYs, and MVPs lmao

the recency bias to overlook howard entirely and place westbrick that low is hilarious

[KobesAchilles]

I’m not going to argue with Bron’s followers. But simply argue that Timmy is better. Never missed playoffs in a small market, 50+ wins every single year without other top players. Anybody on that list comes close??
Same amount of titles. 4 each
More MVPs: 4-2
More Finals MVPs: 4-2
More All NBA 1st teams
More Points, More assists, more playoff wins, more finals appearances. Lebron is clearly one of the 21st century

[blackbucket]

Kobe is the most overrated player ever, tbh.

This is so accurate. I understand his greatness, but he was vastly overrated; especially after he died. That’s what happens to people when they pass.

[KobesAchilles]

This is ignorant coming from anyone, but it is specially bad coming from a Spurs fan. There isn't any reasonable argument to have Kobe over Duncan, even taking out the 99 season.
There really is though. 2000 Kobe kinda was mid. But from 01-2012 he was pretty damn good. Duncan was top peak from 01-08. Duncan got hurt in 2000.

Kobe has 5 titles and 2 Finals MVPs and 1 MVP. He has a 3peat and Shaq aside Kobe was really damn good in 01 and 02. He didn’t 3peat from 08-10 but he went to 3 straight finals and won back to back which Duncan never did. He also scored more points than Tim and has 7 finals appearances.

He missed the playoffs in 2005 and that hurts him. He blew a 3-1 lead in 06 and quit on his team in game 7 and that really hurts him too. I know Spurstalk likes to just shit on Kobe and downplay his whole career but that man was great.

Points against Tim (who didn’t miss the playoffs) is his 2011 year where he did shit in the regular season and played even worse in the playoffs and losing to the 8th seed in the playoffs. That hurts his case anyway you look at it. Plus Duncan shat the bed in the 08 WCFs too and lost first round again in 2009 and got swept by Phoenix in 2010. Duncan was great but if you’re looking at his overall career there are warts on it too.

[timtonymanu]

I don't fault any Spurs fans for thinking Duncan is better than LeBron but yeah let's not act like LeBron is "lesoft" or that he didn't earn the honors. Unlike Kobe Bryant, who was overrated and became even moreso after his unfortunate death, I don't think it's ridiculous to consider LeBron better than Timmy. John B is just being his usual homer self. :lol

[timtonymanu]

This is ignorant coming from anyone, but it is specially bad coming from a Spurs fan. There isn't any reasonable argument to have Kobe over Duncan, even taking out the 99 season.

Well Achilles is a Kobe fan. Even goes as far as calling Timmy "Jim", that lame laker fan nickname, when people dare talk about his precious Kobe Bryant :lol

[timtonymanu]

Spurs fans just need to accept the media will prefer guys like Kobe/Lebron over Tim. Thankfully Wemby actually has a personality and isn't boring so he should get the flowers he deserves.

[John B]

Same amount of titles. 4 each
More MVPs: 4-2
More Finals MVPs: 4-2
More All NBA 1st teams
More Points, More assists, more playoff wins, more finals appearances. Lebron is clearly one of the 21st century

It’s hard to argue stats when talking about Tim Duncan, and vastly underrate his greatness. Spurs fans should know better Spurs egalitarian way of spreading points, assists, etc to get the W, winning 50+ wins every year, not missing playoffs, with mainly role players. So don’t compare stats. They didn’t even give Timmy DPOY despite being in the All-Defensive for 30 years. Come on man. I would give LeBron more credit had he stayed with Cleveland and built it up, like Nowitzky did. Easier to win games if you have the Banana Boat and pad them stats, just saying.

[DAF86]

There really is though. 2000 Kobe kinda was mid. But from 01-2012 he was pretty damn good. Duncan was top peak from 01-08. Duncan got hurt in 2000.

Kobe has 5 titles and 2 Finals MVPs and 1 MVP. He has a 3peat and Shaq aside Kobe was really damn good in 01 and 02. He didn’t 3peat from 08-10 but he went to 3 straight finals and won back to back which Duncan never did. He also scored more points than Tim and has 7 finals appearances.

He missed the playoffs in 2005 and that hurts him. He blew a 3-1 lead in 06 and quit on his team in game 7 and that really hurts him too. I know Spurstalk likes to just shit on Kobe and downplay his whole career but that man was great.

Points against Tim (who didn’t miss the playoffs) is his 2011 year where he did shit in the regular season and played even worse in the playoffs and losing to the 8th seed in the playoffs. That hurts his case anyway you look at it. Plus Duncan shat the bed in the 08 WCFs too and lost first round again in 2009 and got swept by Phoenix in 2010. Duncan was great but if you’re looking at his overall career there are warts on it too.

Duncan has more MVP's, more finals MVP's, more rings as the best player on his team. A better VORP, OBPM, win share % and pretty much any other signficant stat you want to consider. He also never missed the playoffs in his prime, or at any other time for that matter.

So no, unless you are some kind of dumb Kobe sniffing Stan, there isn't a single credible argument to have Kobe over Duncan.

[ambchang]

Shaq is the only laker who gets underrated, and the only reason is kobe. You look at players like magic, Kareem, semi stars like Goodrich, scott and worthy, and even role players like cooper, rambis and mychael Thompson and they are consistently overrated by media and thus fans.

While shaq just gets underrated like crazy and is skipping year over year. There isn’t a single reason shaq would rank below kobe. The only thing people throw out is the five rings argument as if it wasn’t shaq who won all three fmvps, an mvp, led the lakers in almost all advanced stats during that time.

[SpursFan86]

It’s hard to argue stats when talking about Tim Duncan, and vastly underrate his greatness. Spurs fans should know better Spurs egalitarian way of spreading points, assists, etc to get the W, winning 50+ wins every year, not missing playoffs, with mainly role players. So don’t compare stats. They didn’t even give Timmy DPOY despite being in the All-Defensive for 30 years. Come on man. I would give LeBron more credit had he stayed with Cleveland and built it up, like Nowitzky did. Easier to win games if you have the Banana Boat and pad them stats, just saying.

Did I just step into a time machine and get transported back to 2012? :lmao

I’m pretty much as high on Duncan as any somewhat reasonable person could be; I only have LeBron/MJ/Kareem ahead of him. But arguing Duncan over LeBron is absolutely insane Spurs homerism mixed with LeBron hatred :lol It’s a shame how many people truly didn’t get to enjoy LeBron’s career because of ridiculous notions in their head of what makes a good basketball player.

[widowmaker]

Lebron james has a loosing record in the finals. 6 losses out of 10 appearances to be exact.

[exstatic]

Did I just step into a time machine and get transported back to 2012? :lmao

I’m pretty much as high on Duncan as any somewhat reasonable person could be; I only have LeBron/MJ/Kareem ahead of him. But arguing Duncan over LeBron is absolutely insane Spurs homerism mixed with LeBron hatred :lol It’s a shame how many people truly didn’t get to enjoy LeBron’s career because of ridiculous notions in their head of what makes a good basketball player.

The one thing I’ve held against LeBron is that he always took the easy path. Staying in the Eastern Conference for most of his career. Forming super teams when he couldn’t get the job done himself.

Also, the flopping. Everyone bitches at the officials, but I never remember MJ falling down like he’d been shot because someone brushed against his jersey.

[CGD]

The idea of KG being in the same tier as Duncan is ridiculous, and shows how much narratives drive this shit.

[SpursFan86]

The one thing I’ve held against LeBron is that he always took the easy path. Staying in the Eastern Conference for most of his career. Forming super teams when he couldn’t get the job done himself.

Also, the flopping. Everyone bitches at the officials, but I never remember MJ falling down like he’d been shot because someone brushed against his jersey.

Look, if you dislike LeBron that’s one thing. I’m not saying he has to be everyone’s favorite player. But denying his greatness or acting like he’s not indisputably a top 2 player of all-time is just going into hater territory IMO. I personally have a hard time even seeing the argument for MJ over him at this point.

[KobesAchilles]

Duncan has more MVP's, more finals MVP's, more rings as the best player on his team. A better VORP, OBPM, win share % and pretty much any other signficant stat you want to consider. He also never missed the playoffs in his prime, or at any other time for that matter.

So no, unless you are some kind of dumb Kobe sniffing Stan, there isn't a single credible argument to have Kobe over Duncan.

1999 ring isn’t included in this so they don’t have the same amount of rings. He also has the same amount of finals mvps in the 21st century. It’s not talking about career. It’s talking about from 2000- on. And Kobe has more all nba 1st teams, more finals appearances, more points, more rings, one less mvp and same finals mvp. They are in the same tier for the century.

Kobe missed the playoffs once and Duncan lost to the 8th seed as the 1 seed. Those cancel each other out tbh

[KobesAchilles]

It’s hard to argue stats when talking about Tim Duncan, and vastly underrate his greatness. Spurs fans should know better Spurs egalitarian way of spreading points, assists, etc to get the W, winning 50+ wins every year, not missing playoffs, with mainly role players. So don’t compare stats. They didn’t even give Timmy DPOY despite being in the All-Defensive for 30 years. Come on man. I would give LeBron more credit had he stayed with Cleveland and built it up, like Nowitzky did. Easier to win games if you have the Banana Boat and pad them stats, just saying.
Your post is one giant contradiction. You say it’s easier to win with the Banana Boat people yet also say it’s easier to pad stats with them as well? I also bet you think Ginobili is better than Wade/Kyrie and TP is better than Bosh/Love…

Lebron led his teams in points and assists and was second in rebounds. And he played with other HOFers. That’s actually harder to do when you have better players next to you. Dude took a team with Booby Gibson to the finals in 07 and then took a team with hurt midget Isiah Thomas as the PG another time.

You can’t say it’s not about stats with Duncan it’s about winning and then dismiss all the winning that Lebron did. Like somehow winning 50 games a year is more impressive than going to 10 NBA finals. And the reason you can’t compare stats is bc Duncan isn’t good enough to compare stats. I love Tim, but even with stat padding, he wouldn’t be giving you 28, 7, and 7 at age 40.

[widowmaker]

Your post is one giant contradiction. You say it’s easier to win with the Banana Boat people yet also say it’s easier to pad stats with them as well? I also bet you think Ginobili is better than Wade/Kyrie and TP is better than Bosh/Love…

Lebron led his teams in points and assists and was second in rebounds. And he played with other HOFers. That’s actually harder to do when you have better players next to you. Dude took a team with Booby Gibson to the finals in 07 and then took a team with hurt midget Isiah Thomas as the PG another time.

You can’t say it’s not about stats with Duncan it’s about winning and then dismiss all the winning that Lebron did. Like somehow winning 50 games a year is more impressive than going to 10 NBA finals. And the reason you can’t compare stats is bc Duncan isn’t good enough to compare stats. I love Tim, but even with stat padding, he wouldn’t be giving you 28, 7, and 7 at age 40.


And loosing 6 out of those 10 finals.

[SpursFan86]

And loosing 6 out of those 10 finals.


See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:

2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.

2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.

2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring

2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)

2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.

2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.

2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors

2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.

2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.

So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater :lol

[John B]

See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:

2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.

2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.

2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring

2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)

2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.

2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.

2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors

2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.

2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.

So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater :lol

And he lost 6 out of 10

[TD 21]

2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.

Irving missed games 2-6 and Love missed the entire series (Varejao was injured too, but he wasn't a key player at that point).

Given how James emasculated the terrified frauds, it's probable that if just one of Irving or Love were healthy, they'd have won.

[LeBowen]

Other than Celtics which forced him to go to Miami, East was a joke during his prime.
PG led Pacers were probably the best team he had to face in the East for 8 straight seasons, joke coference that allowed him to be at his best in the finals while West had at least three finals worthy teams every year that murdered each other.
All-NBA teams during those years are all you need to check to see how weak the East was.

2016 is the prime example of Spurs, Thunder and Warriors killing each other and Lebron taking advantage of hobbled opponent in the finals. I'd even say he got lucky he faced the Warriors since they never had anything to stop him. Spurs and Thunder were well-equipped with wing defenders and rim protectors.
He averaged 28, 25 an 28 ppg against the Thunder and Spurs in the finals, only to jump to 35, 30, 34, 34 against the Warriors. Their plan was to let him have his.

Was he unbelievable? Yes. Was he the best player on the floor? Yes.
Were the Warriors a favorable matchup for him personally? Obviously.

2007 Cavs were a joke, but their competition was some of the worst ever.
In closeout game against the Pistons he shot 3-11, Daniel Gibson dropped 31 off the bench.

He was young and not ready, but his 2007 finals performance was atrocious. Iirc he shot 22% outside the paint.
Three games were close and getting swept is a bad look, no matter how much better Spurs were back then.

I'd say that '86 Bulls vs Celtics is a comparable series if we talk unfavorable matchups.
MJ got swept...averaging 43/6/6 on 50% FG at 23 years old.

2011 just takes him out of GOAT debate even if he had 6 rings.
That was one of the worst chokejobs by an all-time great ever. His team was doing well, they needed him to just not shit the bed...and he got outscored by Jason Terry.

That's just the pure basketball ability side of things. He's the second best player ever, no doubt.
But if we talk everything else, he's way lower...if you're a fan of a certain team and not just one player.
He sets his teams so far back it's not worth it if you're a big market team.

I'm personally a fan of players enabling their teams to win long term and elevating the culture.
In that regard, only Bill Russell compares to Timmy.

[SpursFan86]

Which player in NBA history leads the 2007 Cavs, 2014 Heat, 2015 Cavs, or 2017/2018 Cavs to a title? Seriously, I would love to hear this argument :lol

Saying he didn’t elevate his teams to winning is just insane levels of hate. You can bitch about his competition all you want, and of course the East wasn’t as strong as the West. But acting like that means he isn’t a top 2 player at worst is hilarious to me. I can’t believe we’re still having these discussions in 2024 when we’ve watched him continue to be a top 10 player in the league at 38-39 years old :lol

[widowmaker]

See, this is the type of stuff I’m talking about when I mean people’s hatred for LeBron just makes it impossible to have any honest discussion. Lets examine LeBron’s Finals performances:

2007: Took a Cavs team that had no business being in the Finals and went up against arguably the greatest Spurs team ever. Admittedly LeBron didn’t have a great series here, but again, the fact they even got this far should be a positive on his resume. His performance in the ECF against the Pistons was incredible.

2011: We all know this one. Not going to stick up for him here, he totally disappointed.

2012: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring

2013: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals —> won a ring (if you really try to say Ray Allen was the main reason they won this year then please save your response for someone else)

2014: Was incredible all playoffs and in the Finals. Ran up against the other SA team that has an argument as the best Spurs team ever. Would love to hear someone tell me that MJ would’ve led this Heat team over the Spurs that year.

2015: He put up 36/13/9 in the Finals against a 67-win GS team. His efficiency was sub-par but again, if we’re really going to act like there’s anyone else in the history of the league who takes this Cavs team and beats GS I’d love to hear the argument.

2016: Right up there with Duncan’s 2003 run as the most impressive playoff run I’ve ever seen. Put up 30/11/9 in the Finals and took down the 73-win Warriors

2017 and 2018: Broken record at this point. LeBron was absolutely unbelievable in both of these Finals but never had a shot against the KD-era Warriors. Someone please tell me that MJ would’ve won in either of these series. Not to mention this is 32/33 year-old Bron by this point.

2020: This playoff run admittedly wasn’t super impressive from a strength of opponent standpoint, but he easily took down everyone in his path. 30/12/8 on insane efficiency to win in the Finals.

So out of his 10 Finals appearances he has played incredible in 8 of them, and in one of the others he was 22 years old. If you seriously think 2011 outweighs every other ridiculous playoff run he’s put together then there’s no way around it: you’re a hater :lol


Im just not a fan and my standard for thr greatest of all time is different than yours.

[R. DeMurre]

Kobe really is the recipient of kind romanticized takes since his passing, but there are a lot of marks against him. The Lakers won three in a row with Shaq as the highest usage rate guy on the team but then Kobe's ego got involved. Kobe had a sky high usage rate in the 2003 playoff series against the Spurs, and the Lakers lost, and it was more of the same in 2004 against the Pistons. Billups and other Pistons are on record saying they knew Kobe wanted a finals MVP and that he was going to shun Shaq to a certain degree to get it, and that let them use single coverage on Shaq while forcing Kobe to take more ill advised shots. Kobe shot 38.1 FG% on 113 FGA in those finals, while Shaq shot 63.1 FG% on 84 FGA. Then Kobe basically forced the Shaq trade, and afterwards the Lakers don't get past the first round of the playoffs for three years. Meanwhile Phil Jackson writes a book calling him uncoachable and generally a pain in the ass to deal with. They win two after the Pau trade, and then they're a non factor and Kobe posts two of the worst imaginable ball hogging low efficiency years ever for a star, winning 21 and 17 games before retiring. I would rank him a very definitive level below LeBron and Timmy.

[LeBowen]

Which player in NBA history leads the 2007 Cavs, 2014 Heat, 2015 Cavs, or 2017/2018 Cavs to a title? Seriously, I would love to hear this argument :lol

I didn't say he had to lead them to the title, I said he had to do better in 2007 if he wanted to be the GOAT.
MJ surely wouldn't have 1-12 total record in 2007, 2017 and 2018 finals when chances of winning were almost non-existant.


Saying he didn’t elevate his teams to winning is just insane levels of hate.

I didn't say that. I just said he's credited for way more than he actually did.


But acting like that means he isn’t a top 2 player at worst is hilarious to me.

I said he is if we just talk pure ability.


I can’t believe we’re still having these discussions in 2024 when we’ve watched him continue to be a top 10 player in the league at 38-39 years old :lol

If both him and AD are top10 players, how come the Lakers can't do shit year in and year out?
Two top10 players went 1-8 in two series against the Nuggets.


Overall, my biggest issue with Lebron is that when he won it was always about him carrying a bunch of scrubs in magnificant feats of grandeur.
But when he lost, it was never his fault.

[SpurSpike]

Maybe they would have ranked him higher if they realize he had 5 championships... says 4 time champion, lol.

[daslicer]

Kobe really is the recipient of kind romanticized takes since his passing, but there are a lot of marks against him. The Lakers won three in a row with Shaq as the highest usage rate guy on the team but then Kobe's ego got involved. Kobe had a sky high usage rate in the 2003 playoff series against the Spurs, and the Lakers lost, and it was more of the same in 2004 against the Pistons. Billups and other Pistons are on record saying they knew Kobe wanted a finals MVP and that he was going to shun Shaq to a certain degree to get it, and that let them use single coverage on Shaq while forcing Kobe to take more ill advised shots. Kobe shot 38.1 FG% on 113 FGA in those finals, while Shaq shot 63.1 FG% on 84 FGA. Then Kobe basically forced the Shaq trade, and afterwards the Lakers don't get past the first round of the playoffs for three years. Meanwhile Phil Jackson writes a book calling him uncoachable and generally a pain in the ass to deal with. They win two after the Pau trade, and then they're a non factor and Kobe posts two of the worst imaginable ball hogging low efficiency years ever for a star, winning 21 and 17 games before retiring. I would rank him a very definitive level below LeBron and Timmy.

Agreed. After Duncan won in 2014 the consensus flipped back to Duncan being better than Kobe in all time rankings and stayed that way until Kobe passed away in 2020 and immediately flipped back to these clowns putting Kobe ahead of Duncan simply because his death added to his legacy. It's annoying how Kobe's death has inflated his all-time rankings and value.

[KobesAchilles]

And he lost 6 out of 10
So he has the same amount of rings as Duncan. Remember you can’t count 99. And twice the amount of MVPs and finals mvps. He also has two gold medals. And he has twice the amount of finals as Tim in this century. He has more points than anyone in league history. He’s top 5 in assists all time as well. And he’s playing at all nba level at age 40. He has the most 1st team all nba in nba history. The most all star games in nba history. And he’s still the best player on his team at age 40.

[DAF86]

1999 ring isn’t included in this so they don’t have the same amount of rings. He also has the same amount of finals mvps in the 21st century. It’s not talking about career. It’s talking about from 2000- on. And Kobe has more all nba 1st teams, more finals appearances, more points, more rings, one less mvp and same finals mvp. They are in the same tier for the century.

Kobe missed the playoffs once and Duncan lost to the 8th seed as the 1 seed. Those cancel each other out tbh

Why, because you say so? :lol

I don't care how many rings and finals appearances Kobe has as a second banana, Duncan was still pretty clearly the better player of the 2 in the 21st century.

Kobe shouldn't even be ahead of Shaq or Curry.

[Ice009]

Look, if you dislike LeBron that’s one thing. I’m not saying he has to be everyone’s favorite player. But denying his greatness or acting like he’s not indisputably a top 2 player of all-time is just going into hater territory IMO. I personally have a hard time even seeing the argument for MJ over him at this point.

Sorry, I both dislike Lebron (I don't hate him), and still rate TD higher (A prime TD that is). Same with MJ at his best. I don't look at every single season, don't care about the tail end as it wasn't Tim's fault his body broke down. I look at them at their best, and I don't like Lebron over either of those guys. If starting a team, I'd pick TD, Hakeem, MJ over Lebron.

Lebron formed super teams to win. He couldn't win without them. He has TD's 2013 finals MVP (Tim put the Spurs in position to win it, but he had to watch from the bench as his teammates let him down). 2011, Lebron pissed his pants in those finals (I probably shouldn't say that, but he did play poorly in those finals and it looks like the Mavs strategy/game plan got to him. You'll never see TD play like that in the finals IMO). 2012, yeah, sure they won that one legit, but the Thunder shouldn't have been there in the first place. Spurs got screwed over in that WCF series and who knows how the Heat would have played against the Spurs (I guess we'll never know). His only legit championship is the 2012 one, but I would have loved to have seen how they would have went against the Spurs instead, as the Thunder didn't get the same BS goaltending calls (game 5 HUGE momentum swing on that call) and touch fouls (game 6 after Spurs had a 20 point lead, they get in the bonus super early in the second half. Sjax, T-d up for staring at the bench when they were probably talking all kinds of shit to him) against the Heat like they did against the Spurs. 2016, well Draymond fucked that one up, Cleveland didn't really win it so much as Draymond screwing up (I kept telling my friends if he pulls that shit in the finals in might cost the Warriors and it did - serves him right, though. I was quite happy with the outcome). The bubble championship, it's unfortunate that happened and it's not his fault with all the shit that was going on, but I don't know how anyone can hold that Championship up against most others in NBA history.

Lebron is a great player, top 5, but personally, I won't put him ahead of TD (I'd always pick TD at his best over Lebron if starting a team - if we're talking longevity, then that is the only time I'd take Lebron. I'll give him that, he's been consistently great for a long, long time). It's my choice/opinion, and if people don't like it, I don't care. How many finals would TD have gone to in that Eastern Conference in his prime. The amount of finals appearances LBJ has had is not that impressive, as being in the Eastern Conference when the West was the stronger conference most of the time helped him immensely. I doubt he makes anywhere near that amount of finals if he were in the west. I'm coming off as a hater, but that's my opinion on it all. He is probably top 2 or 3 due to his longevity, but for me, if I were a GM and was starting a team, I prefer to go with those other players.

[Seventyniner]

Kobe missed the playoffs once and Duncan lost to the 8th seed as the 1 seed. Those cancel each other out tbh

Missing the playoffs and being the 1 seed cancel each other out?!

btw Kobe missed the playoffs 4 times. Maybe you can't hold 2013-2014 against him because he only played 6 games, but the 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 Lakers were abysmal.

Even age can't be the determining factor: Kobe was 36 and 37 in those last two seasons but Tim Duncan nearly won a Finals MVP at age 36.

[LeBowen]

What are the arguments for Lebron over Duncan if you're a fan of a team and not a player?
As much as I loved Timmy, the main objective was for Spurs to win, not Duncan.

With Lebron in his place, what would've happened to Tony and Manu?
How many picks would Spurs have traded away just to get some short-term help that would leave the franchise crippled long term and then Lebron would've ditched the team.

The only reason he returned to the Cavs was Kyrie already being a lock to develop into one of the best playmakers in the league and Cavs getting another #1 pick that was immediately traded away for Love.
Then as years went by, all of their assets were depleted on mostly bad moves, he forced the front office to give awful extensions to JR and TT, ruined all of their flexibility and future.
Worked out because Draymond was an idiot and Cavs as a small franchise are happy to win one, but Lebron decided to force them to waste all of their assets in a losing battle instead of riding it out for a couple more years and building a well-rounded roster.

He's currently making a mockery out of the Lakers. Monumental failure if not for the bubble and everything going their way.
I don't think Lakers fans are happy with a mickey mouse ring and two series wins in 5 years outside the bubble.
That's pathetic for a franchise that has a huge advantage compared to every other team in the league.

[CorrectCrusader]

You look at the rosters Steph and Kobe missed the playoffs with, then you look at some of the rosters Timmy won 50 games with and won playoff series, even a ring since '03 roster was arguably the worst supporting cast out of any championship roster ever.

03 was the biggest carry job of all time

[LeBowen]

Also, if we talk finals, how many finals would Lebron's Cavs and Heat make in the West?
I'd say Heat makes maybe two, Cavs don't make a single one.

2016 Spurs and OKC would do a way better job against the Cavs than the Warriors that were all about outgunning the opponent.

[SpursFan86]

Yeah, I don’t base my GOAT rankings on loyalty to owners :lol Since we’re firing off hypotheticals left and right: who is to say LeBron wouldn’t have stuck with Cleveland in the first place if they had Popovich and consistent hall of fame talent around him? Who is to say Duncan would’ve stuck with SA if they weren’t a well-run and competent organizations? We can go in circles about “what ifs” all day.

My argument for LeBron has nothing to do with “Look at all the Finals he made!”, so arguing that that the Cavs wouldn’t have made the Finals in the West doesn’t really say anything. Yes, the East was generally weak during LeBron’s time in the conference. He also had shit for help for many of those years. The first Cavs stint goes without saying. The Heat era is majorly overblown as people act like Wade/Bosh were in their primes and healthy the whole time (or even funnier: “LeBron was why they declined!” :lol). The 2nd Cavs stint…are we supposed to act like Kyrie and past-his-prime Kevin Love are a stacked team? Take LeBron off those teams and they aren’t winning 40 games. Seriously - look at the on-off splits from those years :lol The funny thing is that I’m usually the one defending how much people overrate Duncan’s help during the first half of his career, but what people do when discussing LeBron’s help is even worse.

Sorry but these arguments just don’t seem genuine at all. Nitpicking stuff like “Look at this game/series LeBron played poorly!”. Are we going to pretend that Duncan never had a bad game/series…?

The argument for LeBron over Duncan is that he’s a more impactful player on the court. He has a comparable prime to MJ/Shaq and better longevity than Kareem/Duncan. If you want to start arguing the most loyal player of all-time then go for it but if we’re talking about the best basketball players then it’s simply absurd to not have LeBron top two (which to be fair you already more or less admitted).

[Seventyniner]

Also, if we talk finals, how many finals would Lebron's Cavs and Heat make in the West?
I'd say Heat makes maybe two, Cavs don't make a single one.

2016 Spurs and OKC would do a way better job against the Cavs than the Warriors that were all about outgunning the opponent.

I may have posted this before, but here's a table of the average SRS values of the playoff opponents for Duncan and James in their careers.



Player

All Playoff Opp SRS

Round 1 Opp SRS

Round 2 Opp SRS

CF Opp SRS

Finals Opp SRS



Duncan

3.906
2.453
4.591
5.801
3.948


James

3.336
0.782
3.147
3.803
7.399



The numbers bear out the narrative: Duncan faced far tougher competition in the first three rounds of the playoffs while James faced far tougher competition in the Finals.

[LeBowen]

Yeah, I don’t base my GOAT rankings on loyalty to owners :lol

Ownerships can change, franchises (mostly) remain the same.


Since we’re firing off hypotheticals left and right: who is to say LeBron wouldn’t have stuck with Cleveland in the first place if they had Popovich and consistent hall of fame talent around him? Who is to say Duncan would’ve stuck with SA if they weren’t a well-run and competent organizations? We can go in circles about “what ifs” all day.

But were Spurs a well-ran organization before Duncan?
And while Lebron's first Cleveland exit is understandable, everything he's done since joining Miami undermined his coaches and GMs.
If Spoelstra didn't have Riley backing him, he wouldn't have been in charge after Lebron's first season in Miami.


My argument for LeBron has nothing to do with “Look at all the Finals he made!”, so arguing that that the Cavs wouldn’t have made the Finals in the West doesn’t really say anything. Yes, the East was generally weak during LeBron’s time in the conference. He also had shit for help for many of those years. The first Cavs stint goes without saying. The Heat era is majorly overblown as people act like Wade/Bosh were in their primes and healthy the whole time (or even funnier: “LeBron was why they declined!” :lol).

First stint Cavaliers were shit and I think that they're the reason for his obsessive need to control roster moves. He didn't want to be let down again, but he just made things worse most of the time.
Lebron wasn't the reason some of his teammates declined, but you can't deny that every star teammate of his had to take a step back. It was worth most of the time since he was the best player in the world, but still.
He made a lot of money for role players, can't deny that.

Imo, Jokic is a way better teammate to have. Yes, Lebron is a better player overall, but if I'm an all-star looking to join a contender, I'd much rather play with Jokic because he enables everyone to be the best version of themselves and his role players get way more credit than they deserve.


The 2nd Cavs stint…are we supposed to act like Kyrie and past-his-prime Kevin Love are a stacked team? Take LeBron off those teams and they aren’t winning 40 games. Seriously - look at the on-off splits from those years :lol The funny thing is that I’m usually the one defending how much people overrate Duncan’s help during the first half of his career, but what people do when discussing LeBron’s help is even worse.

Yeah, let's act like KLove just randomly declined over one summer.
Went from 26/12/4 to 16/10/2 just like that. That was before Olynyk injured his shoulder.
Bosh went from 24/11 to 18/8.

Obviously numbers go down on stacked teams, but you can't deny that a lot of it is on them having to adapt to Lebron.
Again, it's fine to adapt to the best player on the team, but then you can't shit on players who had to take a step back and say they weren't good enough.

Their on/off numbers were awful because Cavs were built to function only around Lebron and it all crumbled without him.
They never had an actual backup point guard.


Sorry but these arguments just don’t seem genuine at all. Nitpicking stuff like “Look at this game/series LeBron played poorly!”. Are we going to pretend that Duncan never had a bad game/series…?

I'm nitpicking those because there should be no margin for error if te talk who's the GOAT. You can lose, even get swept, but you have to be the best player on the floor.
Lebron often wasn't.
I think he's top3 no matter which criteria you use, but I just can't make the case for him over MJ. The only thing he's got is longetivity and masterful stad-padding in his last few years.


The argument for LeBron over Duncan is that he’s a more impactful player on the court. He has a comparable prime to MJ/Shaq and better longevity than Kareem/Duncan. If you want to start arguing the most loyal player of all-time then go for it but if we’re talking about the best basketball players then it’s simply absurd to not have LeBron top two (which to be fair you already more or less admitted).

But winning championships is more than just playing well while on the court.
Idk if I wrote this in here already, but I'd split Lebron into three categories:
1) He's a second/third best player ever if we talk on court impact and pure ability.
2) He's a great role model off the floor because he dealt with so much pressure ever since he was a teenager and never had a major slip-up.
3) But his off the floor basketball persona is fucking unbearable and cost him more rings. Always complaining about needing more help, always trying to find excuses backed by his media machinery, always putting coaches and GMs under pressure and always getting his way...only to leave when it doesn't work out.

My opinion is that he took the GOAT case away from himself with his constant pressure towards GMs and coaches.
Also, both him and MJ won their last ring at 35.
While Lebron is amazing for a 36-39 year old, his stats are way better than his impact.
He practically has the same stats he had a decade ago and yet it's obvious he's like 30% of a player he was. Which is still great considering his age, but he's not even a top10 player in the league these days.
Otherwise he would've done something against mediocre Nuggets considering how well AD played and how poor the Nuggets actually were, got exposed by Minnesota that turned out to be nothing special.


I may have posted this before, but here's a table of the average SRS values of the playoff opponents for Duncan and James in their careers.



Player

All Playoff Opp SRS

Round 1 Opp SRS

Round 2 Opp SRS

CF Opp SRS

Finals Opp SRS



Duncan

3.906
2.453
4.591
5.801
3.948


James

3.336
0.782
3.147
3.803
7.399



The numbers bear out the narrative: Duncan faced far tougher competition in the first three rounds of the playoffs while James faced far tougher competition in the Finals.


That's actually great.
Just proves how weak the East was.
That's why FMVPs can sometimes be deceiving.
For example Tony deservedly won it in 2007 because there was no need for Duncan to carry.
In the actual finals that year against the Suns, Timmy averaged 27/14 with 4 blocks. On 57% FG.

[K...]

i think lebron has a problem where he was actually too good for too long. They'll say he was statpadding in a weak era. there's a weird feeling that he didn't have a true rival; dirk, duncan and curry got over him but don't play his position. Kawhi is a what if .... Hes efficient and boring, like a blue chip stock. Is there enough of nomadic pro lebron crowd to keep him relevant over the next big thing (wemby) ? if he isn't in the case for 1 (because nike/nba continue jordan push for example) i could see him fall among the top 50.

[CorrectCrusader]

I may have posted this before, but here's a table of the average SRS values of the playoff opponents for Duncan and James in their careers.



Player

All Playoff Opp SRS

Round 1 Opp SRS

Round 2 Opp SRS

CF Opp SRS

Finals Opp SRS



Duncan

3.906
2.453
4.591
5.801
3.948


James

3.336
0.782
3.147
3.803
7.399



The numbers bear out the narrative: Duncan faced far tougher competition in the first three rounds of the playoffs while James faced far tougher competition in the Finals.

Easy to make a bunch of finals when you're in the east. Easy to win the finals when you've won the west.

[TD 21]

:lmao There's no credible argument for James not being a top 2 player of all time and the worst argument of all is his Finals record.

Jordan never faced a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors in the Finals. The two James won against them, it took him playing about as well as anyone ever has to barely survive those teams, but somehow Jordan was going to swing those other definitive results?




Why, because you say so? :lol

I don't care how many rings and finals appearances Kobe has as a second banana, Duncan was still pretty clearly the better player of the 2 in the 21st century.

Kobe shouldn't even be ahead of Shaq or Curry.



i think lebron has a problem where he was actually too good for too long. They'll say he was statpadding in a weak era. there's a weird feeling that he didn't have a true rival; dirk, duncan and curry got over him but don't play his position. Kawhi is a what if .... Hes efficient and boring, like a blue chip stock. Is there enough of nomadic pro lebron crowd to keep him relevant over the next big thing (wemby) ? if he isn't in the case for 1 (because nike/nba continue jordan push for example) i could see him fall among the top 50.

I love the hypocrisy with Bryant compared to Golden Boy. To be clear, virtually everything said about the former is true, but the latter benefitted from the same things.

He's never beaten a non decimated James team when he didn't have Durant holding his hand and his two non Durant championships came with unprecedented opponent injury luck/avoidance.

Absent those two things, he's also repeatedly fallen flat on his face.

[DAF86]

:lmao There's no credible argument for James not being a top 2 player of all time and the worst argument of all is his Finals record.

As if Jordan, who never faced a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors in the Finals, would have had any chance at winning most of those series had he replaced him.

The two James won against them, it took him playing about as well as anyone ever has to barely survive those teams.






I love the hypocrisy with Bryant compared to Golden Boy. To be clear, virtually everything said about the former is true, but the latter benefitted from the same things.

He's never beaten a non decimated James team when he didn't have Durant holding his hand and his two non Durant championships came with unprecedented opponent injury luck/avoidance.

Absent those two things, he's also repeatedly fallen flat on his face.

Dude, you aren't objective when it comes to the Raptors, Curry and Kawhi. Sit this one out. :lol

[itzsoweezee]

1. LeBron
2. TD
3. Shaq
4. Steph
5. Kobe
6. KD
7. Giannis/Jokic
9. Dirk
10. Harden

[TD 21]

Dude, you aren't objective when it comes to the Raptors, Curry and Kawhi. Sit this one out. :lol

If I can't stand Bryant, Curry and Durant, then how am I not?

You people mention O'Neal repeatedly being Finals MVP, but not Durant (who was also considered the consensus second best player throughout this era until the masses pretended to forget and claim Golden Boy was post '22).

You mention Bryant not doing anything between the O'Neal and Gasol eras, but not Golden Boy doing the same when he didn't have loaded teams. He's always given a free pass.

[DAF86]

If I can't stand Bryant, Curry and Durant, then how am I not?

You people mention O'Neal repeatedly being Finals MVP, but not Durant (who was also considered the consensus second best player throughout this era until the masses pretended to forget and claim Golden Boy was post '22).

You mention Bryant not doing anything between the O'Neal and Gasol eras, but not Golden Boy doing the same when he didn't have loaded teams. He's always given a free pass.

Curry won 2 rings without Durant and broke the all-time record for wins in the regular season the year prior to Durant joining. Even with Durant on the team, metrics proved that Curry remained the most impactful player on the team.

Curry is also the victim of the worst robbery for finals MVP in the history of the league, when they gave it to Igoudala over him, yet he's supposedly the media's "Golden Boy".

In my books, Curry won 4 rings as the top dog on his team, that doubles Kobe's tally, and gets him in the Lebron, Duncan, Shaq tier, who all have 4+ as the top dog.

And I don't care about injury luck, every season has injuries. In fact, if it weren't for injuries I would argue Curry would have 5 rings instead of 4 now, because he would keep all the rings he has, and he would add the one that the Raptors won.

[TD 21]

Curry won 2 rings without Durant and broke the all-time record for wins in the regular season the year prior to Durant joining. Even with Durant on the team, metrics proved that Curry remained the most impactful player on the team.

Curry is also the victim of the worst robbery for finals MVP in the history of the league, when they gave it to Igoudala over him, yet he's supposedly the media's "Golden Boy".

In my books, Curry won 4 rings as the top dog on his team, that doubles Kobe's tally, and gets him in the Lebron, Duncan, Shaq tier, who all have 4+ as the top dog.

And I don't care about injury luck, every season has injuries. In fact, if it weren't for injuries I would argue Curry would have 5 rings instead of 4 now, because he would keep all the rings he has, and he would add the one that the Raptors won.

He was in the early stages of who he's become in '15 and the league wasn't covered in quite the same way yet, which is why they didn't hand him Finals MVP. Also keep in mind, only 9 vote on it.

The 73 wins (expected was 65 wins compared to Spurs 67 and the latter didn't go all out for them) are nice, this is mostly about the playoffs.

This again? The injury luck wasn't the typical kind virtually everyone gets, it was unprecedented. Somehow played nothing but teams with multiple key injuries while avoiding every contender in '15 save the Cavaliers (who also had multiple significant injuries). The in '22, it was a similar story (they did get a non contending healthy Mavericks team).

Metrics or not and whether you agree or not, Durant was the consensus second best player in the league.

[DAF86]

He was in the early stages of who he's become in '15 and the league wasn't covered in quite the same way yet, which is why they didn't hand him Finals MVP. Also keep in mind, only 9 vote on it.

The 73 wins (expected was 65 wins compared to Spurs 67 and the latter didn't go all out for them) are nice, this is mostly about the playoffs.

This again? The injury luck wasn't the typical kind virtually everyone gets, it was unprecedented. Somehow played nothing but teams with multiple key injuries while avoiding every contender in '15 save the Cavaliers (who also had multiple significant injuries). The in '22, it was a similar story (they did get a non contending healthy Mavericks team).

I don't care, the Warriors would have beaten any of those teams full strength either way. The Raptors wouldn't have beaten the Warriors full strength. So, no, the injury excuse doesn't fly.


Metrics or not and whether you agree or not, Durant was the consensus second best player in the league.

First, I'm not sure the consensus was that Durant was the 2nd best player in the World. Many had Curry even ahead of Lebron. Nowadays it is talked as the Lebron/Curry era. And, again, IDGF about the consensus, the "consensus" now has Kobe over Shaq and Duncan, when it should never be the case.

Curry is an all-time that is closer to Lebron, than Kobe is to him. I don't care how much you hate his guts, tbh.

[TD 21]

I don't care, the Warriors would have beaten any of those teams full strength either way. The Raptors wouldn't have beaten the Warriors full strength. So, no, the injury excuse doesn't fly.



First, I'm not sure the consensus was that Durant was the 2nd best player in the World. Many had Curry even ahead of Lebron. Nowadays it is talked as the Lebron/Curry era. And, again, IDGF about the consensus, the "consensus" now has Kobe over Shaq and Duncan, when it should never be the case.

Curry is an all-time great more comparable to Lebron than to Kobe. I don't care how much you hate his guts, tbh.

Wrong.

As I said, even with one of Irving or Love, the Cavaliers almost certainly beat them in '15, while the Spurs, Thunder (no Durant) and Clippers would have had a legit shot.

In '22, the Bucks almost certainly beat them with a healthy Middleton, while the Nuggets (no Murray and Porter Jr.), Clippers and Grizzlies (up 2-1 when Morant got injured) would have had a legit shot.

It was consensus, but they were near equals, so you can stop pretending your boy has 4 as the clear lead dog. With Bryant and Duncan, contrary to popular belief, when publications do their lists, the latter is often ranked higher.

I fundamentally disagree with the premise of all championships being equal, but if you're going to argue otherwise, then make sure to do so with Bryant too. He doesn't get short shrift because you hate him, while Golden Boy gets a free pass because you love him.

Saying he's closer to James is absurd.

[KobesAchilles]

1. LeBron
2. TD
3. Shaq
4. Steph
5. Kobe
6. KD
7. Giannis/Jokic
9. Dirk
10. Harden
How is Jokic below KD?

[KobesAchilles]

Missing the playoffs and being the 1 seed cancel each other out?!

btw Kobe missed the playoffs 4 times. Maybe you can't hold 2013-2014 against him because he only played 6 games, but the 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 Lakers were abysmal.

Even age can't be the determining factor: Kobe was 36 and 37 in those last two seasons but Tim Duncan nearly won a Finals MVP at age 36.
I don’t count after he tore his Achilles. Dude was never the same after that. And we were the one seed in 2011 but it wasn’t bc of Duncan. He was garbage that year. I thought he was going to retire he was so bad. Were you even a fan back in 2011 or do you just not remember that season at all? Bc Duncan was the reason we lost that series. It was painful to watch as a Duncan fan.

IMO Kobe scored 35 a game and missed the playoffs. I never thought in that season well if Kobe played better they would’ve made the playoffs. However in 2011 I remember thinking we are fools gold and it’s bc Duncan was sucking and I left the season thinking if Duncan did play better we would’ve won. You don’t have to think the way I do. But that’s how I feel.

[ambchang]

Agreed. After Duncan won in 2014 the consensus flipped back to Duncan being better than Kobe in all time rankings and stayed that way until Kobe passed away in 2020 and immediately flipped back to these clowns putting Kobe ahead of Duncan simply because his death added to his legacy. It's annoying how Kobe's death has inflated his all-time rankings and value.

The best accomplishment kobe had is killing himself, his daughter and five other innocent people. Pushed him at least 10 spots up the all time list.

[DAF86]

Wrong.

As I said, even with one of Irving or Love, the Cavaliers almost certainly beat them in '15, while the Spurs, Thunder (no Durant) and Clippers would have had a legit shot.

In '22, the Bucks almost certainly beat them with a healthy Middleton, while the Nuggets (no Murray and Porter Jr.), Clippers and Grizzlies (up 2-1 when Morant got injured) would have had a legit shot.

It was consensus, but they were near equals, so you can stop pretending your boy has 4 as the clear lead dog. With Bryant and Duncan, contrary to popular belief, when publications do their lists, the latter is often ranked higher.

I fundamentally disagree with the premise of all championships being equal, but if you're going to argue otherwise, then make sure to do so with Bryant too. He doesn't get short shrift because you hate him, while Golden Boy gets a free pass because you love him.

Saying he's closer to James is absurd.

I don't love Curry at all, I just don't irrationally hate him like you do. :lol

Curry - 4 rings as the most impactuful player on his team (statistically proven)

Kobe- 1.5 as the top dog.

Anything else is subjective bullshit.

[HankChinaski]

Duncan is still top on that list. A lot of what he did doesn't show up on the stat sheet. But the team definitely felt the impact when he put up the jersey.

He competed against tough opponents and got the better of them through the 21st century.

I would have Duncan and Shaq going either direction for 1 and 2. Duncan over Shaq only because he was more relevant to the team in the last decade of either career.

Lebron is a generational talent but made decisions that benefited his brand.

I think that top 5 is mostly right the order is wrong but honestly arguments could be made swapping each of those around in a game of round robin

[exstatic]

When the rubber meets the road Tim Duncan is the only player on that list that could have put the 2002-2003 Spurs on his back and led them to a title. Tony was a second year player who couldn’t shoot. Manu was a rookie who missed 30% of the season. David was old and broken, playing 64 games at 24 minutes per, his lowest minutes other than his 6 game season. The second best player on that team was probably Stephen Jackson.

[TD 21]

I don't love Curry at all, I just don't irrationally hate him like you do. :lol

Curry - 4 rings as the most impactuful player on his team (statistically proven)

Kobe- 1.5 as the top dog.

Anything else is subjective bullshit.

Then apply the same standards you did to Bryant to him. I don't "irrationally hate him", I hate how he's portrayed because of his telegenic style of play and non threatening appearance.

Two rings where Durant won Finals MVP (the same criteria utilized with O'Neal), that he receives next to no credit for, but Golden Boy, the king of starting on the two-yard line, somehow does.

It's not subjective; the unprecedented opponent injury luck is fact. If you didn't have to face or beat anyone at full strength capable of beating you, it clearly denigrates the accomplishment.

Why else would people constantly reference Jordan overcoming the Pistons? Or Spurs fans do so with '03 Duncan? Or James beating the '16 Warriors? Etc.

[ambchang]

Lebron duncan and shaq is 1-2-3 for me, in that order. I can understand if people move them around one way or another, but anything else is hard to justify.

[DAF86]

Then apply the same standards you did to Bryant to him. I don't "irrationally hate him", I hate how he's portrayed because of his telegenic style of play and non threatening appearance.

Two rings where Durant won Finals MVP (the same criteria utilized with O'Neal), that he receives next to no credit for, but Golden Boy, the king of starting on the two-yard line, somehow does.

Why do you lie? I clearly stated that Curry was the #1 guy on the Warriors because metrics showed he was. The same happens with Shaq and Kobe. I don't care about finals MVPs. Wade in 06, Tony in 07, Kawhi in 14, Iggy in 15, Brown now. Many example of finals MVPs that weren't the #1 guy during the season. Throw Durbeta in there too.


It's not subjective; the unprecedented opponent injury luck is fact. If you didn't have to face or beat anyone at full strength capable of beating you, it clearly denigrates the accomplishment.

Why else would people constantly reference Jordan overcoming the Pistons? Or Spurs fans do so with '03 Duncan? Or James beating the '16 Warriors? Etc.

Injuries happen every season, how much importance you place on those is entirely subjective. I remember once Bill Simmons saying the 2005 Spurs were the worst Champions of his lifetime because Joe Johnson and Leandro Barbosa missed games against us and, according to him, the best team of that season, the Pacers, had all its stars suspended. That's how mind numbing dumb arguments can get when you start getting your bias in the way.

[TD 21]

Why do you lie? I clearly stated that Curry was the #1 guy on the Warriors because metrics showed he was. The same happens with Shaq and Kobe. I don't care about finals MVPs. Wade in 06, Tony in 07, Kawhi in 14, Iggy in 15, Brown now. Many example of finals MVPs that weren't the #1 guy during the season. Throw Durbeta in there too.



Injuries happen every season, how much importance you place on those is entirely subjective. I remember once Bill Simmons saying the 2005 Spurs were the worst Champions of his lifetime because Joe Johnson and Leandro Barbosa missed games against us and, according to him, the best team of that season, the Pacers, had all its stars suspended. That's how mind numbing dumb arguments can get when you start getting your bias in the way.

It doesn't really matter whether you said the part about O'Neal or not because either way there's this:


Duncan has more MVP's, more finals MVP's, more rings as the best player on his team.

Finals MVP's suddenly mattered when used to denigrate Bryant.

Again, why are you pretending there was a gulf either way? Even if you want to argue he was slightly better (nonsense considering Durant's superior size gives him access to so many more secondary skills, like ISO scoring, which Kerr himself admitted was the impetus for recruiting him), he wasn't the clear lead dog which is really the crux of the matter.

Apparently you don't know what the word unprecedented means. That's the difference between him and the others. The '05 Spurs still had to face the Suns big 3 and the Pistons at full strength with Duncan on two sprained ankles. Far more difficult than anything the Warriors did in any of their runs.

Again, I can't stand Bryant, Durant and Curry . . . you only can't stand two, but I'm the one who is biased? Give your head a shake.

[DAF86]

It doesn't really matter whether you said the part about O'Neal or not because either way there's this:



Finals MVP's suddenly mattered when used to denigrate Bryant.

Again, why are you pretending there was a gulf either way? Even if you want to argue he was slightly better (nonsense considering Durant's superior size gives him access to so many more secondary skills, like ISO scoring, which Kerr himself admitted was the impetus for recruiting him), he wasn't the clear lead dog which is really the crux of the matter.

Apparently you don't know what the word unprecedented means. That's the difference between him and the others. The '05 Spurs still had to face the Suns big 3 and the Pistons at full strength with Duncan on two sprained ankles. Far more difficult than anything the Warriors did in any of their runs.

Again, I can't stand Bryant, Durant and Curry . . . you only can't stand two, but I'm the one who is biased? Give your head a shake.

I don't hate Durant, tbh. It's the same as Curry for me, I don't hate them, but I don't particularly care for them either. I just realize that Durant was a big enough bitch to join a team that had won 73 games and had knocked him out on the previous season. So, sorry if I don't think that guy can claim to be the most important player in those Warriors, specially since metrics indeed indicate he wasn't.

Regarding the Duncan comparisson, it was made like that just because it was easier than to explain it the other way. The real reason why Duncan >> Kobe, is because Timmy won 4 (in the 21st century) as the best guy on his team, and Kobe only 2. Finals MVPs be damned.

And the whole injuries argument is just tiring at this point. I already told you what I think about that, you won't make change my mind, and you won't change yours. At the end of the day, what happened is what happened, and Curry won 4 rings as the most impactful player of his team. Something only the elitest of the elite have managed to do, and Kobe isn't on that level.

[TD 21]

I don't hate Durant, tbh. It's the same as Curry for me, I don't hate them, but I don't particularly care for them either. I just realize that Durant was a big enough bitch to join a team that had won 73 games and had knocked him out on the previous season. So, sorry if I don't think that guy can claim to be the most important player in those Warriors, specially since metrics indeed indicate he wasn't.

Regarding the Duncan comparisson, it was made like that just because it was easier than to explain it the other way. The real reason why Duncan >> Kobe, is because Timmy won 4 (in the 21st century) as the best guy on his team, and Kobe only 2. Finals MVPs be damned.

And the whole injuries argument is just tiring at this point. I already told you what I think about that, you won't make change my mind, and you won't change yours. At the end of the day, what happened is what happened, and Curry won 4 rings as the most impactful player of his team. Something only the elitest of the elite have managed to do, and Kobe isn't on that level.

Agreed and Golden Boy was a big enough bitch to recruit him so he could dismantle what probably would have been his stiffest competition throughout his prime and start on the two-yard line.

But who cares? Apparently neither that nor having to beat anyone worthwhile due to injuries is no different than the other all-time greats championships. That makes a lot of sense.

This is no different than people saying, despite strong on/off numbers, player X doesn't impact winning because his team has a poor record or despite a wide gulf in advanced metrics and malleability, player Y is no better than player X because of comparable counting stats.

[Brazil]

Kobe is the most overrated player ever, tbh.

yep, his death is helping his legacy for sure

[spurraider21]

OP soft as always, being offended by some shit ESPN throws out :lol

[TD 21]

OP soft as always, being offended by some shit ESPN throws out :lol

Yeah, if I'm debating it (which is the whole point of these lists) then it must mean I'm offended by it.

You're just mad because you're another clown who loves to gargle Golden Boy's cum.

[Barfunk]

ESPN could've really marketed the Spurs as the New England Patriots of the NBA when they were chipping/perennial contenders, but they weren't having any of that. The disrespect and it not being cool to **TAKE** Tim Duncan above guys like Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Chris Webber, Hakeem, Lebron, etc is the result of that.

[Barfunk]

I gotta give credit where it's due though, I've seen people like Stephen A. Smith give more and more props to the Spurs/Tim/Tony/Manu/Pop as the years go by, so that's good at least.