KOC's Take on the Spurs (Does he read ST.com, tbh?)

[scott]

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[LeBowen]

Might aswell rename the topic to "every basketball fan with half a brain's take on the Spurs".

[scott]

Might aswell rename the topic to "every basketball fan with half a brain's take on the Spurs".

Things Everyone But Gregg Popovich and Brian Wright Can See

[The Truth #6]

I need more time before blaming Sochan. But agree with much of the rest.

[LeBowen]

Trying to compete this season would be kind of simple.

CP3/Castle at point. Trade Tre or extend him and tell him he'll be Castle's long-term backup. We got no use for him this season in games where both CP3 and Castle play.
Devin/Champagnie at SG. Nothing to add.
Jeremy/Barnes at PF.
Get a legit starting forward and find a backup for Wemby.
Mamu as backup forward, with new winger, Jeremy and Barnes playing starter minutes and Mamu filling the rest. Some minutes at C if opposition bench plays small.
Wesley, Branham, Sidy as third stringers.

We got Keldon, Zach and Tre to work with. 17.5+18+9 million contracts.
Can combine them for a more expensive player or just attach picks for each trade.

Realistic wing targets: Cam Johnson, Kuzma, Ingram
Realistic backup big targets: Vucevic, Poeltl, Brook Lopez, Ayton (big contract, but only until 2026, Keldon+Collins is a perfect match)

As I said before, I'd take a chance on Keldon+Zach+SRPs for Ingram. Even if he doesn't sign an extension, we'd be getting rid of those useless contracts earlier.

[Dejounte]

The team crumbles due to inexperience from the bench and low iq from the usual suspects (keldon, collins, branham). Continue increasing the iq of the team and the team will see success. Continue relying on low iq players, however, and we will see bad losses. We’re almost done purging the low iq players from the team… we got rid of eubanks, rudy gay, lonnie, mills (mills was useful when there was 6 players above him in priority level), forbes… just need to keep going.

[baseline bum]

As I said before, I'd take a chance on Keldon+Zach+SRPs for Ingram. Even if he doesn't sign an extension, we'd be getting rid of those useless contracts earlier.

Really? You'd trade a moldy trashcan of stink for a good player?

[LeBowen]

Really? You'd trade a moldy trashcan of stink for a good player?

:rollin
He's obviously not staying there and they just gave Murphy an extension.
Their starting C is even worse than Collins, believe it or not.

[baseline bum]

Tried to tell everyone the Spurs needed to move Keldon ASAP last summer. Now no one is trading for a scrub with a PER of 7.0 who is even worse defensively and makes $19 million.

[baseline bum]

:rollin
He's obviously not staying there and they just gave Murphy an extension.
Their starting C is even worse than Collins, believe it or not.

Zollins is signed through 25-26 and Kelon through 26-27. They'd be better off just letting him walk for nothing.

[playblair]

timvp had his work stolen from an espn writer & he got fired

[LeBowen]

Zollins is signed through 25-26 and Kelon through 26-27. They'd be better off just letting him walk for nothing.

I think a decent number of teams still sees Keldon as a solid bench player. The incompetent ones, mostly.

[baseline bum]

I think a decent number of teams still sees Keldon as a solid bench player. The incompetent ones, mostly.

I think only one does

[Mr. Body]

Sochan came off the bench at Baylor. And that lead to him becoming a top 10 pick. Question is whether he can fit the team long-term if he cannot play next to Wembanyama much. But the defensive possessions with the two of them and Castle have looked really promising.

Keldon might have value in the league. Some teams need a motor off the bench. I just don't know who would give up much for him.

[Uriel]

IIRC, KOC also had Castle ranked near the top of his Big Board pre-draft.

[scott]

Tonight’s game against MIN kind of demonstrated what this team can do with production out of Keldon’s role on the team. Problem is that Keldon has zero consistency, and that’s the problem.

Also, Collins was still fucking horrible.

I do think they are wrong about Sochan though. He’s been great this season - the spacing will come.

[LeBowen]

I think only one does

Gotta strike while the iron is hot.

[timtonymanu]

Keldon did well but he follows it up with stinker 3-12, 0-5 from 3 type of games.

I'm not on the "keep Keldon" train just yet but we also don't need to trade him tomorrow. Let the team get comfortable with each other at this point.

[couchman]

Sochan is the only player we have who can roll effectively on the PnR and who can do damage from the dunker spot.

[John B]

Some of the takes in here are not aging well :rollin

[timtonymanu]

Some of the takes in here are not aging well :rollin

Wake me up when he does this consistently. It's on par with Keldon.

[John B]

Sochan success rolling to the basket is CP3 obviously a great PG finding him, but also I think Wemby drawing the shot blocker outside with his ability to shoot the 3. Cancels out takes 1 and 3.

Keldon if he continues his play like tonight is a perfect 6th man with his quick offense and motor.

I think they make the playin with the current squad. I doubt they make any moves by deadline, that includes CP3 staying to continue his fine work with the team.

[spursgu]

Keldon shit on all you losers tonight.

[Ni-G]

Keldon shit on all you losers tonight.

Thing is that with his experience he should be shitting on us a bit more consistently.

[Chinook]

Just like in the other thread based on this conversation, it's pretty clear they don't watch the Spurs and don't know what they're talking about. They basically shredded their credibility in my eyes with that video.

[J_Paco]

Kevin O'Connor is a buffoon. This is the same guy that swore Killian Hayes (and some other mega bust that I can't remember) was gonna be a star.

I'd take Hollinger, Ben Taylor or Zach Lowe's opinions on the Spurs before that idiot.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

K:lolC

This board should know better.

[RC_Drunkford]

he just read the Pauleta thread on spurstalk and thought it would be a smart take

[Pauleta14]

Just like in the other thread based on this conversation, it's pretty clear they don't watch the Spurs and don't know what they're talking about. They basically shredded their credibility in my eyes with that video.

They, like we do, base their pov on recency bias most of the time.

It's been only 6 games and most players have looked from really bad, to decent, to excellent.

Let's wait a few more games to start any trend

[exstatic]

Wake me up when he does this consistently. It's on par with Keldon.

He’s literally had one meh game this year. That’s 5-1, about the highest consistency you can get from a 21 year old.

[The Truth #6]

I think KOC only looked on the offensive side and discounted Jeremy's defense or what seems to be a team goal of prioritizing defense. And, that VW actually likes hanging outside the 3P line by choice.

[Dejounte]

I think KOC only looked on the offensive side and discounted Jeremy's defense or what seems to be a team goal of prioritizing defense. And, that VW actually likes hanging outside the 3P line by choice.

This. A Wemby who learns to be elite on the perimeter would be more valuable than one who stays inside. I just wish he’d dribble less. Run around and get to your spots. You’re more Dirk than T-Mac tbh.

[timtonymanu]

He’s literally had one meh game this year. That’s 5-1, about the highest consistency you can get from a 21 year old.

Except he’s 25 now.

[scott]

I don't even know who people are talking about at this point... but nothing aged Poorly about KOC's take, except the part about Sochan which was off base from the start. Despite a good game from Keldon and Collins, everything said about them is still true. Both of these bums will hold our team back, which might be by design... who knows

[exstatic]

Except he’s 25 now.

The discussion is about Sochan. Please try to pick upon context and not be so wrong all the time.

[timtonymanu]

The discussion is about Sochan. Please try to pick upon context and not be so wrong all the time.

I was referring to Keldon when the thread was about Sochan. Don’t talk to me about not being wrong when your dumbass is always wrong.

:lol Jeff Errors uh huh

[exstatic]

You’re right. I talked about Keldon when the thread was about Sochan. Don’t talk to me about not being wrong when your dumbass is always wrong.

:lol Jeff Errors uh huh
Do you see that X on your browser tab? Click on it, and go away. The adults, and generally people that can read for context are talking.

[timtonymanu]

Do you see that X on your browser tab? Click on it, and go away. The adults, and generally people that can read for context are talking.

Shut up faggot. How about that?

Not even sure why you’re flexing today. :lol

Keldon was mentioned in the article. I was referring to him in John B’s post. That’s why I mentioned Keldon. So go fuck off with your nonsense, bitch boy.

[exstatic]

Shut up faggot. How about that?

Not even sure why you’re flexing today. :lol

Keldon was mentioned in the article. I was referring to him in John B’s post. That’s why I mentioned Keldon. So go fuck off with your nonsense, bitch boy.

You quoted me, smoothie.

[timtonymanu]

You quoted me, smoothie.

After you quoted me. Do you have dementia? You’re way too retarded to be so smug.

[exstatic]

After you quoted me. Do you have dementia? You’re way too retarded to be so smug.

I would only quote you point out a fuckup, which you admitted to. You’re just not interesting or knowledgeable enough to discuss basketball with.

[timtonymanu]

I would only quote you point out a fuckup, which you admitted to. You’re just not interesting or knowledgeable enough to discuss basketball with.

John b says take does not age well.

I said Keldon needs to do more before we clamor for him.

You responded to me thinking I was talking about sochan. That was the disconnect.

You proceeded to be more of a retard. I didn’t realize i triggered such a reaction but okay feel what you feel. A lot of people on here think you’re a dumbass too.

[timtonymanu]

Ex is on her period today. Attacking me because he’s too dumb to understand I wasn’t referring to Sochan.

[Chinook]

I don't even know who people are talking about at this point... but nothing aged Poorly about KOC's take, except the part about Sochan which was off base from the start. Despite a good game from Keldon and Collins, everything said about them is still true. Both of these bums will hold our team back, which might be by design... who knows

I agree the take didn't age poorly, but that's only because it was bad when it was made. I've already talked about it being wrong in premise because it was making assumptions that were not sound. Their whole argument comes from the assumption that Wemby is the guy he was against the Jazz but artificially looks like the guy he was against Houston and OKC because the team around him makes him look bad. That's obviously wrong, and that opinion can only come from not actually watching the games. The team reaching the play-in is not based on what two of their bench players do. Like we can talk about Johnson and Collins all we want. There's obviously a ton of criticism for them on this site. But the Spurs struggled early because of how disorganized they'd become on offense, and that has nothing to do with their backup wing or backup center.

The only premise that had merit at all is the Pop needing to be more creative on offense. That was true, and last game was progress in that area. But attacking Sochan, Johnson and Collins to excuse Wemby not being ready to score against good defenders playing an updated game plan. Wemby is not the Jazz guy, or rather he's both the Jazz guy and the Rockets/Thunder guy. KOC and his friend watch so little of the Spurs that they didn't understand that and listed off a number of silly ideas to explain a question that already had an answer. The Spurs' supporting cast can get better, but it's plenty good for Victor to take the steps he needed as it is. There's more evidence now that a Markkanen deal would've been a big mistake.

[exstatic]

Wake me up when he does this consistently. It's on par with Keldon.

You weren’t talking about Keldon, smoothie, you were comparing someone to him. Who was that? Sochan, maybe?

[timtonymanu]

You weren’t talking about Keldon, smoothie, you were comparing someone to him. Who was that? Sochan, maybe?

It’s on par with Keldon to be inconsistent. He has bad games that follow good games. That’s what I meant. I thought I wasn’t worth your time so why you still engaging? You clearly have dementia and are just finding ways to take my post out of context.

Also smoothie? What a fucking twink. Is that what you say to Mrs Body when she’s ramming you?

[exstatic]

It’s on par with Keldon to be inconsistent. He has bad games that follow good games. That’s what I meant. I thought I wasn’t worth your time so why you still engaging? You clearly have dementia and are just finding ways to take my post out of context.

Also smoothie? What a fucking twink. Is that what you say to Mrs Body when she’s ramming you?

Well, it was another fuckup, so I quoted you, and proved you WERE talking about Sochan, even though you tried to weasel and lie your way out of it. ‘Smoothie’ refers to your brain surface topography. You might have to look up that last word. It’s OK if you do.

[timtonymanu]

I’m also a sochan fan and have been praising him so far. Ex’s dumbass didn’t realize that lol.

[timtonymanu]

Well, it was another fuckup, so I quoted you, and proved you WERE talking about Sochan, even though you tried to weasel and lie your way out of it. ‘Smoothie’ refers to your brain surface topography. You might have to look up that last word. It’s OK if you do.

Yeah you’re just making shit up now, go take your meds you senile fuck

[timtonymanu]

Not worth your time to engage but still doing it and shooting yourself in the foot more lol

[exstatic]

I’m also a sochan fan and have been praising him so far. Ex’s dumbass didn’t realize that lol.

My original quote of you was referring to Sochan as 25, meaning you weren’t comprehending that the discussion was about Sochan and not Keldon. I quoted a post that I requoted of yours comparing Sochan to Keldon. Keldon was only the comparison, not the subject of discussion, yet when I said ‘he’ is only 21, and Sochan, the subject of the discussion is, in fact 21, you had to trip on your dick and try to flex on ME by saying he was 25. That as only the first error in a long line of them, as you try to weasel out of your original error.

China must be terrified of you as some new secret weapon, digging all the way there in an attempt to undermine Three Gorges dam,

[timtonymanu]

My original quote of you was referring to Sochan as 25, meaning you weren’t comprehending that the discussion was about Sochan and not Keldon. I quoted a post that I requoted of yours comparing Sochan to Keldon. Keldon was only the comparison, not the subject of discussion, yet when I said ‘he’ is only 21, and Sochan, the subject of the discussion is, in fact 21, you had to trip on your dick and try to flex on ME by saying he was 25. That as only the first error in a long line of them, as you try to weasel out of your original error.

China must be terrified of you as some new secret weapon, digging all the way there in an attempt to undermine Three Gorges dam,

You’re interpreting me saying he was 25 as flexing when it was just a disconnect, you’re being so butthurt over nothing. :lol I get it you constantly get shat on in here so you have a me against the world complex. But it wasn’t that deep. Anyway go take your meds. I know you have dementia, you senile fart.

[scott]

I agree the take didn't age poorly, but that's only because it was bad when it was made. I've already talked about it being wrong in premise because it was making assumptions that were not sound. Their whole argument comes from the assumption that Wemby is the guy he was against the Jazz but artificially looks like the guy he was against Houston and OKC because the team around him makes him look bad. That's obviously wrong, and that opinion can only come from not actually watching the games. The team reaching the play-in is not based on what two of their bench players do. Like we can talk about Johnson and Collins all we want. There's obviously a ton of criticism for them on this site. But the Spurs struggled early because of how disorganized they'd become on offense, and that has nothing to do with their backup wing or backup center.

The only premise that had merit at all is the Pop needing to be more creative on offense. That was true, and last game was progress in that area. But attacking Sochan, Johnson and Collins to excuse Wemby not being ready to score against good defenders playing an updated game plan. Wemby is not the Jazz guy, or rather he's both the Jazz guy and the Rockets/Thunder guy. KOC and his friend watch so little of the Spurs that they didn't understand that and listed off a number of silly ideas to explain a question that already had an answer. The Spurs' supporting cast can get better, but it's plenty good for Victor to take the steps he needed as it is. There's more evidence now that a Markkanen deal would've been a big mistake.

Nah, you’re wrong.

The premise that the Spurs should suck until Wemby is ready to single handily carry them on his back is just absurd on its face. The fact that Wemby is “the Jazz guy” and “the Rockets/Thunder guy” shouldn’t be a reason to not put a better team around Wemby or excuse subpar players like Johnson and Collins. That’s accepting that the Spurs can only be as good as Wemby lets them. How about, instead, we put a team that can overcome Wemby being “the Rockets/Thunder guy” instead of NEEDING him to be “the Jazz guy” to win.

The MIN game was a great example. Wemby played an effective, but not dominant offensive game, but a rare outburst by Keldon was enough to carry us. Imagine being able to get those kind of contributions more regularly. Imagine winning not because Wemby is super human, but rather because we have a well constructed, capable basketball team with good coaching.

[Chinook]

The premise that the Spurs should suck until Wemby is ready to single handily carry them on his back is just absurd on its face.

Scott, you know damned well I didn't say that. In fact, I can't imagine you don't know that I believe the opposite -- that the Spurs will be better once Wemby starts to play his role and NOT try to carry them on his back. I think the last two-and-a-half games have indicated that.


The fact that Wemby is “the Jazz guy” and “the Rockets/Thunder guy” shouldn’t be a reason to not put a better team around Wemby or excuse subpar players like Johnson and Collins

We went over that in the off-season. You know I wanted a better team. However, that's not "the problem" with the Spurs. It's at least as much that they lack actualized star power as it is that they lack a supporting cast. But when Johnson and Collins are your sixth- and eight-best players rather than your third or fourth, it dramatically changes the team's talent level. No serious playoff team is being held back by their bench guys being inconsistent.


That’s accepting that the Spurs can only be as good as Wemby lets them.

You're assuming the Spurs are doing everything they can to win -- that they want to do that. Many of your fellow Wemby fans would argue the team is purposefully willing to sacrifice wins if it means Wemby can experiment and develop. I personally don't think that's true and look to the recent games as evidence for that. But even though you seem to personally believe Wemby needs stars next to him to develop doesn't mean it's a universal belief. This feels like a far better situation for growth than one with a second star.


How about, instead, we put a team that can overcome Wemby being “the Rockets/Thunder guy” instead of NEEDING him to be “the Jazz guy” to win.

Wemby hasn't needed to be the "Jazz" guy to win, and I actually don't think the Spurs can meaningfully overcome Wemby being shut down by a wing without basically benching Wemby and being carried by an actual offensive system OR by deemphasizing Wemby like they've done recently and reduce the number of iso touches he gets. "Rockets/Thunder" Wemby isn't just a guy a wing locked up --it's a guy a wing locked up who kept breaking the sequence of the offense and wasting touches, then ultimately letting his frustration affect his defense.


The MIN game was a great example. Wemby played an effective, but not dominant offensive game, but a rare outburst by Keldon was enough to carry us.

Yes, because right now the Spurs don't have the guy who averaged almost 20ppg last year and had to rely on their sixth man to carry them. It's like how Danny Green and Patty Mills would carry the Spurs sometimes when the Big Three were out. It just feeds into the weakness of this argument. A team shouldn't be carried by a bench player. That they have one averaging 13 points instead of 25 a night doesn't strike alarm bells. Time will tell how sustainable the team's play can be with a more integrated Wemby like we saw last game. Hopefully it's a trend, but Paul has to keep this going at least until Jones comes back. But right now, the Spurs are getting next to nothing from Champagnie. Devin can add play-making to help offset Paul returning to Earth and add shooting to make up for Champ's slump.


Imagine being able to get those kind of contributions more regularly. Imagine winning not because Wemby is super human, but rather because we have a well constructed, capable basketball team with good coaching.

That doesn't mean trade Keldon, and it obviously has nothing to do with Collins. I have nothing against the team looking into acquiring a scoring guard for the bench. I think if the Spurs end up being in the mix in a few months, it should be high on their wish list. But that's not to replace Johnson. It's to solidify the Jones, Castle, Johnson, Collins bench. Trading Johnson and Collins to try to put Champ and Bassey/Mamu in their place isn't a serious step toward improvement.