How We Failed Wemby (and How We Can Fix It)

[Dejounte]

Plan A: top of the key 3
Plan B: post up
Plan C: roll to the basket (opened up by plan A)

If this is the game plan, it’s something the NBA has never seen before. An offense that revolves around a center who’s unstoppable from 3, can pass to open players, and mix it up inside. That’s unique. That’s even a different style than Durant because Durant doesn’t shoot as much from the top of the key as Wemby does, he has to go to his spots. It’s much harder to alter Wemby’s shots from the 3 and he doesn’t put as much effort in in order to take those 3’s, which is good for his longevity. So this style is good in multiple ways. Wemby’s forging a path unique to himself and we have a brand of basketball on offense that’s never been done before.

[Brazil]

Plan A: top of the key 3
Plan B: post up
Plan C: roll to the basket (opened up by plan A)

If this is the game plan, it’s something the NBA has never seen before. An offense that revolves around a center who’s unstoppable from 3, can pass to open players, and mix it up inside. That’s unique. That’s even a different style than Durant because Durant doesn’t shoot as much from the top of the key as Wemby does, he has to go to his spots. It’s much harder to alter Wemby’s shots from the 3 and he doesn’t put as much effort in in order to take those 3’s, which is good for his longevity. So this style is good in multiple ways. Wemby’s forging a path unique to himself and we have a brand of basketball on offense that’s never been done before.

pretty much this, people were asking on what Victor was working on offense in the offseason well here we are

[skin27]

Plan A: top of the key 3
Plan B: post up
Plan C: roll to the basket (opened up by plan A)

If this is the game plan, it’s something the NBA has never seen before. An offense that revolves around a center who’s unstoppable from 3, can pass to open players, and mix it up inside. That’s unique. That’s even a different style than Durant because Durant doesn’t shoot as much from the top of the key as Wemby does, he has to go to his spots. It’s much harder to alter Wemby’s shots from the 3 and he doesn’t put as much effort in in order to take those 3’s, which is good for his longevity. So this style is good in multiple ways. Wemby’s forging a path unique to himself and we have a brand of basketball on offense that’s never been done before.

the problem with this is if wemby has an off night from3pt land:lol

he still needs to leran how ro get to the freethrow line consistently

[Dejounte]

the problem with this is if wemby has an off night from3pt land:lol

he still needs to leran how ro get to the freethrow line consistently

If his 3 game is off, then he goes to Plan B.

[skin27]

If his 3 game is off, then he goes to Plan B.
he doesnt have a post up game

[Spurs Homer]

Plan A: top of the key 3
Plan B: post up
Plan C: roll to the basket (opened up by plan A)

If this is the game plan, it’s something the NBA has never seen before. An offense that revolves around a center who’s unstoppable from 3, can pass to open players, and mix it up inside. That’s unique. That’s even a different style than Durant because Durant doesn’t shoot as much from the top of the key as Wemby does, he has to go to his spots. It’s much harder to alter Wemby’s shots from the 3 and he doesn’t put as much effort in in order to take those 3’s, which is good for his longevity. So this style is good in multiple ways. Wemby’s forging a path unique to himself and we have a brand of basketball on offense that’s never been done before.


welcome to the future..

been waiting for you guys to catch up

[vy65]

I’ll be honest - perhaps it was my own lack of imagination before, but tonight I saw for the first time what perhaps was the point of all of this. If Wemby even shoots 36% from three, then these pump fake and drives he did tonight against the Wizards are going to be there. Eventually teams will adjust somewhat but it will just leave someone else open to shoot a three.

So, I eat some crow and say that I understand what the game plan might be here. I don’t expect Wemby to continue the tear he has been on the last 3 games from 3… but he doesn’t need to. When he’s shooting 22%, it’s a bad strategy. When he’s shooting 50%, he’s going to post insane games. When he’s shooting closer to average (which hopefully be in the 35%+ range), then the Spurs offense is going to work the way I assume they envision it.

Some of the shot selection can be cleaned up, but that will come over time.

It’s still early, but if we’re going to be around a .500 team, then my main point about having a high performing vet leader still stands. While I didn’t (and still wouldn’t) want DDR back, he’s an example of the kind of short term, All-Star Caliber vet who the team could use, IMO.

Anyway, this crow is delicious, and I’m happy to be eating it.

I think it was Chinook who first suggested it, but I keep coming back to Jimmy Buckets. He has a player option for '25 - '26 and could function as an expiring. He's having a rough year from 3, but is historically a decent shooter. We figure to have up to 4 FRP picks this year. Keldon and Collins seem like "Heat Culture" guys. Malaki + Keldon + Zollins for Jimmy works, and has the attendant benefit of clearing up some runway for an extra rookie or two in the '25 draft.

A CP3-Vassell-Jimmy Buckets-Sochan-Wemby lineup feels like a solid play-in team with the chance of snagging the 7 or 8 seed depending on the matchup.

[exstatic]

I think it was Chinook who first suggested it, but I keep coming back to Jimmy Buckets. He has a player option for '25 - '26 and could function as an expiring. He's having a rough year from 3, but is historically a decent shooter. We figure to have up to 4 FRP picks this year. Keldon and Collins seem like "Heat Culture" guys. Malaki + Keldon + Zollins for Jimmy works, and has the attendant benefit of clearing up some runway for an extra rookie or two in the '25 draft.

A CP3-Vassell-Jimmy Buckets-Sochan-Wemby lineup feels like a solid play-in team with the chance of snagging the 7 or 8 seed depending on the matchup.

He’s not a historically decent shooter. His career mark is 32.8%. He’s also 35 fucking years old. Historically, he’s been a malcontent who has burned his bridges and forced his way out at every stop.

No thanks.

[rjv]

yeah, i'd pass on buckets.

[scott]

Jimmy also isn’t someone I’d be too interested in, but I think that’s the right train of thought. Jimmy brings some baggage and has some flaws in his game which are inconsistent with what the Spurs need - but that kind of playoff performer is along the right train of thought, IMO. There may not be many of these king of guys available though.

If we are still around .500 headed towards the deadline, there is no reason to not make a move that pushes us towards the playoffs. The playoff experience will be HUGE for our team, much more valuable than picking 13th or some shit. I’d rather spend a few of these assets (and ideally, CHA and CHI are trending towards conveying and we can just flip those) and get the Playoff experience.

I’m also not opposed to the kind of deal where we pick up a useful Josh Richardson-type vet for a handful of SRPs. Dorian Finney Smith comes to mind as the Nets eventually fall to earth.

[LeBowen]

If we're around .500 at the deadline and trying to compete I want Vucevic.
$20M this and $21.5M the next season, averaging 20/10, he'd just murder every bench big and he's shooting 45% from 3pt on 4 attempts per game.

[vy65]

I get the Jimmy criticism, it's not wrong per se. But he's a proven playoff performer - and if we're looking to compete in the play offs/play in, I struggle to think he'd be more detrimental than beneficial. I also like the idea of SC learning a few things from Jimmy since there's some similarity in their game.

[LeBowen]

Jimmy makes 50 million, Heat are way over the cap and aren't taking 4 players.
Riley would want one of our good young players. That trade isn't happening.

I've got no issue with trading for older players, but 35 is too old if we have to give up assets.

[Seventyniner]

I can see the Bucks trading for Jimmy if they get really desperate. It would cost them Middleton and Portis. Though I don't know if the Bucks are allowed to aggregate players in a trade like that due to their apron status.

[DPG21920]

Hell no to Jimmy Butler

[Sugus]

There is the interesting theory that perhaps the Spurs are engaging in another 20-game experiment... but I think this begs the question of "Why?". Why do the Spurs feel the need to engage in these long trial periods to test something that almost everyone can see going in (or very quickly into the experiment) isn't going to work. We didn't need 20 games to see if Sochan was a point guard. We don't need 20 games to see if Wemby is Steph Curry. What will start with next season? Finding out if Steph Castle can be our starting center?

I very much enjoy your takes here, Scott, I love a "good guy gone bad" story. And while you often have very valid points... These are the things where you may have strayed too far off "Snifferland" for comfort, and reason.

Since you made this comment, bluntly questioning what the fuck the staff was even thinking letting Wemby shoot these 3's, he's gone on to achieve a new career-high of 6 3pt's made - then repeated it the very next game, another 6 threes, and lastly, a new career high of 8 made 3's, on his way to a 50-point performance.

It's quite safe to say the Spurs were completely right in allowing and focusing on this "experiment", and I hope your future analysis acknowledges this and takes into account that what we, outsiders, ascribe to randomness or bad coaching (mostly the latter in this forum), can give great results, given time and patience.

Paging also LeBowen, who I think had the most unfortunate timing ever in hopping on the "Wemby shoots too much" train, right before these games :lol

[Sugus]

Plan A: top of the key 3
Plan B: post up
Plan C: roll to the basket (opened up by plan A)

If this is the game plan, it’s something the NBA has never seen before. An offense that revolves around a center who’s unstoppable from 3, can pass to open players, and mix it up inside. That’s unique. That’s even a different style than Durant because Durant doesn’t shoot as much from the top of the key as Wemby does, he has to go to his spots. It’s much harder to alter Wemby’s shots from the 3 and he doesn’t put as much effort in in order to take those 3’s, which is good for his longevity. So this style is good in multiple ways. Wemby’s forging a path unique to himself and we have a brand of basketball on offense that’s never been done before.

Love this, the plan is great and the vision is clearly aligned with what both the FO and Wemby himself sees in his game and potential.

People here really underestimate the potential of a sharpshooting Wemby. The league might be legit fucked, Jordan-style.

[Mal]

No way Jimmy Butler would give a fuck without securing contract extension, which would run through his 40th birthday. Pass

[DAF86]

He’s not a historically decent shooter. His career mark is 32.8%. He’s also 35 fucking years old. Historically, he’s been a malcontent who has burned his bridges and forced his way out at every stop.

No thanks.

This is the type of things people would say about CP3 whenever he was brought up as an option in years' past.

[scott]

I very much enjoy your takes here, Scott, I love a "good guy gone bad" story. And while you often have very valid points... These are the things where you may have strayed too far off "Snifferland" for comfort, and reason.

Since you made this comment, bluntly questioning what the fuck the staff was even thinking letting Wemby shoot these 3's, he's gone on to achieve a new career-high of 6 3pt's made - then repeated it the very next game, another 6 threes, and lastly, a new career high of 8 made 3's, on his way to a 50-point performance.

It's quite safe to say the Spurs were completely right in allowing and focusing on this "experiment", and I hope your future analysis acknowledges this and takes into account that what we, outsiders, ascribe to randomness or bad coaching (mostly the latter in this forum), can give great results, given time and patience.

Paging also LeBowen (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54457), who I think had the most unfortunate timing ever in hopping on the "Wemby shoots too much" train, right before these games :lol

I’ll direct you to post #247 of this thread.

[Fireball]

The only other players to have 6+ 3 pointers in each game of a three game stretch are Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, James Harden and Damian Lillard. This shows you probably are a good shooter AND/OR you have the ultimate green light :lol

[Seventyniner]

The only other players to have 6+ 3 pointers in each game of a three game stretch are Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, James Harden and Damian Lillard. This shows you probably are a good shooter AND/OR you have the ultimate green light :lol

I wonder how many of those hit at least half of their threes in each of those games.

[exstatic]

This is the type of things people would say about CP3 whenever he was brought up as an option in years' past.

If Jimmy Buckets comes as a FA for $10 M one year, costing us zero assets, I’ll reconsider.

[DAF86]

If Jimmy Buckets comes as a FA for $10 M one year, costing us zero assets, I’ll reconsider.

Then talk about that, not all that other stuff, tbh. :lol

[exstatic]

Then talk about that, not all that other stuff, tbh. :lol

The post and poster I was replying to were talking about a trade at his current salary. I’m a hard no on that,which is what we were discussing when you threw in the side track of Chris Paul, who I would have opposed trading for. The logical comparison, would be comparing trades, not trading for JB vs. Signing Chris Paul.

[LeBowen]

Paging also LeBowen (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54457), who I think had the most unfortunate timing ever in hopping on the "Wemby shoots too much" train, right before these games :lol

Tbf, the shots he's been taking over the past few games are different from those shots he's been missing early on in the season.
There are no more iso sidestep or stepback 3pts, very few attempts against the flow of the game, he's just taking shooter's 3pts.

[scott]

Tbf, the shots he's been taking over the past few games are different from those shots he's been missing early on in the season.
There are no more iso sidestep or stepback 3pts, very few attempts against the flow of the game, he's just taking shooter's 3pts.

I agree, but as part of my Crow Diet I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt that Wemby needed those games of ill advised brick 3s to morph into what he is right now, and that he learns at an otherworldly pace.

it’s possible that he’s just on a hot streak, but I’m going to chose to believe this is closer to who he is and that marginal improvements in shot selection lead to major improvements in results.

curious to see how he adjusts to the next time he is shooting cold

[pRoshi]

No need to eat crow, your eyes didn't deceive you watching Wemby at the beginning of the season. To me his lack of effort was obvious on both ends of the court, Wemby is insanely gifted we all know that but some of those games he gave up on defensive plays and settled for bad shots when he couldn't find his way into the paint. Either he was sick early on or he truly needed to get his legs under him, either way we expected greatness from him every game and he wasn't showing that.

These last games are exactly what we envision for him, take the open shots with no hesitation, make a few, throw out the pump fakes and make your moves early. He absolutely learns at an ungodly pace but his effort will need to be there every game to show how dominant he truly is.

[ginobilized]

For the love of god, just let the boy shoot the 3.

[Pauleta14]

the problem with this is if wemby has an off night from3pt land:lol

he still needs to leran how ro get to the freethrow line consistently

He needs to keep shooting the same way and amount whether he scores or not, the same way a SG would do to keep the defenders respecting his shot.

Very soon, teams will start game planning this situation and he'll have even more opportunities to fake and penetrate with an open lane.

[Seventyniner]

For the love of god, just let the boy shoot the 3.

https://i.imgflip.com/9afa7m.jpg

[ginobilized]

https://i.imgflip.com/9afa7m.jpg

Meme of the year, so far! Nice work

[Knoxxx]

I knew this thread wouldn’t age well LOL.

[MannyIsGod]

I just think you jumped the small sample size train my friend. If 3 good - VERY GOOD - games can erase the stats to make an argument then its too soon to make that argument. Wemby has improved somewhat on shot selection and not having Sochan out there helps his defensive matchup but also not playing hte rockets (who just defend him very well right now) 3 times is a big deal too.

Honestly what makes Scott better than 99% of the posters here is just the willingness to admit when he's wrong. A lot more people should be willing to do that.

[Bill_Brasky]

I just think you jumped the small sample size train my friend. If 3 good - VERY GOOD - games can erase the stats to make an argument then its too soon to make that argument. Wemby has improved somewhat on shot selection and not having Sochan out there helps his defensive matchup but also not playing hte rockets (who just defend him very well right now) 3 times is a big deal too.

Honestly what makes Scott better than 99% of the posters here is just the willingness to admit when he's wrong. A lot more people should be willing to do that.

Yeah he's just making them now. He said himself don't overreact either way. What i will say is that if you watch Wemby shoot a basketball, he has great form. That would be the dumbest thing ever to watch a guy shoot like that and tell him he shouldn't shoot 3s. Shot selection like you said just needs to be good. Save those "heat check" early in the shot clock types of shots for when you've actually caught fire.

[scott]

I just think you jumped the small sample size train my friend. If 3 good - VERY GOOD - games can erase the stats to make an argument then its too soon to make that argument. Wemby has improved somewhat on shot selection and not having Sochan out there helps his defensive matchup but also not playing hte rockets (who just defend him very well right now) 3 times is a big deal too.

Honestly what makes Scott better than 99% of the posters here is just the willingness to admit when he's wrong. A lot more people should be willing to do that.

Thanks Manny. On admitting being wrong... it's so fucking easy, I don't know why people have a problem with it. Manny is the only person on this website who I actually know personally and GAF to even the smallest degree what he thinks of me, so what's the point in trying to impress a bunch of internet strangers with machismo and bullshit? Just say you are wrong and carry on with productive conversations :lol

[scott]

But if Wemby goes 1-9 tonight against LA, you best your ass I'm going to be back in here with a vengeance! lol jk... maybe

[Tyronn Lue]

Unlike almost every other NBA player, Victor almost always has an open look at a 3. He doesn't need to swing it like they do and rush his shot like they do. He doesn't need a pick even if he still uses one because he seems to feel like he's 6'9 vs 7'5. No one is going to block his three. From that regard, he's a good option from 3 even if he's shooting a lower percentage. He also avoid the Chet Holmgren, Anthony Davis, Joel Embiid type injuries under the basket if he can be out there.

The Spurs need another 3pt threat though, not someone who shoots about the same as Victor but who has to fight for open looks.

[The Truth #6]

I'm trying to recall who or what type of player has been guarding him the last three games... I'm thinking it was more traditional bigs, right? And not small forwards? That could have an impact, too.

[TVI]

Wemby shot 40% on pull-up threes last year, and he's been taking those more in the last 3 games.

I think that's going to continue to be his secret weapon, as it's nearly impossible to block, and it forces the defense to react to him much differently than when the Spurs tried to force feed it to him down on the low block.

There's a little bit of the "element of surprise" right now, and it's working for him.

And, as defenses adjust to it, he's already shown himself to be an unselfish player and a good passer, so there should be space to move the ball if/when they try to collapse on him earlier.

[TimmyBuckets]

8/16 from 3 and 50 points in 26-28 minutes. What a failure.

[DAF86]

I'm trying to recall who or what type of player has been guarding him the last three games... I'm thinking it was more traditional bigs, right? And not small forwards? That could have an impact, too.

Yep, this might have something to do. If Wemby is guarded by small forwards and he just keeps bricking 3's over them, it's not gonna be a good look.

[scott]

Tonight (versus the Lakers) was a good example of what I was talking about. While I am finally understanding the outline of what Wemby is trying to become, he’d really be aided by someone else to take the pressure of and help him in these moments when his shot isn’t falling and he can’t get to the FT line. I generally like the game he played aside from some youthful turnovers and an ill-advised 3 in crunch time (and a few others I could have done without, but they weren’t the worst). It was our rookie Steph Castle who kept us in this game.

I don’t want to have to rely on Wemby having a superhuman performance to win basketball games. As much as no one really wanted or wants DDR back on this team, having him (or a guy like him) tonight might have meant victory. Someone in addition to Castle who can manufacture some offense, get fouls, keep it moving. Devin also stepped up at moments tonight, but we were missing just one more piece. Could Sochan and Tre (or even just one of them) made the difference? Maybe? But this looks to be a play-in contending team. Let’s make the steps to take that a little further.

[Pauleta14]

Tonight (versus the Lakers) was a good example of what I was talking about. While I am finally understanding the outline of what Wemby is trying to become, he’d really be aided by someone else to take the pressure of and help him in these moments when his shot isn’t falling and he can’t get to the FT line. I generally like the game he played aside from some youthful turnovers and an ill-advised 3 in crunch time (and a few others I could have done without, but they weren’t the worst). It was our rookie Steph Castle who kept us in this game.

I don’t want to have to rely on Wemby having a superhuman performance to win basketball games. As much as no one really wanted or wants DDR back on this team, having him (or a guy like him) tonight might have meant victory. Someone in addition to Castle who can manufacture some offense, get fouls, keep it moving. Devin also stepped up at moments tonight, but we were missing just one more piece. Could Sochan and Tre (or even just one of them) made the difference? Maybe? But this looks to be a play-in contending team. Let’s make the steps to take that a little further.

I agree, but we'll have to do this season again with Wemby being the sole focus of all our opponents. He'll learn the hard way, let's hope he doesn't end up too damaged...

Tre won't change much and Sochan as much as he's missed on D wouldn't be a diff maker to take opponents off of Wemby.

Castle is the only hope depending on how fast he develops (he's already learning so fast tbh) and we badly need a another one next draft or via trade