Grades: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder – Game #15

[spursparker9]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-spurs-thunder-2025-game-15/

[Davidicus]

got to see this one in person

Yes Castle had an up and down night, but from my perspective, a very good one. He spent most of the night guarding one of the best basketball players in the world. His TOs were rough, but expected from a rookie shouldering the load. That was apparent - Mitch was relying on him for both defense and offense. Some of his zip passes while backing down his defender at the elbow / free throw were amazing to see in person, like a laser. Overall with the offensive and defensive load, Im guessing he learned more last night than any game this season, which is a very good thing.

Speaking of shouldering the offense, CP3 was awesome. Some of the shots he took were totally whack, but went in. CP3 has won us a few games this year, this was another one.

Keldon really carried us in the first half and then took a giant dump the second half. Some of his shots in the 4th were soul-crushing. However gotta give him credit on that dunk, the crowd went from murmuring to electric, and really jumpstarted the crowd for the rest of the game.

Bassey had a really nice night, putting in the lords work with rebounds / blocks / dunks. Feels like he's quickly coming back into form.

Tre I can't say the same. He was a liability out there with his hesitation to take 3s. Him and Castle on the floor together is difficult to watch with spacing. They both want to pump and drive, with mixed results. Hoping Tre can re-discover his edge.

Was fun to see Wemby in street clothes pulling the refs aside during timeouts to dispute calls. He's really got the right mindset.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Great game. Great win.

Tre needs to step up.

[Leetonidas]

Bassey was very impressive. Dude just brings what you want out of a backup C to the court. He should be Victor's primary backup

[onechance87]

Tre jones needs to be gone by this summer.Dude is a 3rd string pg.We can get a better second backup pg this summer.

[KobesAchilles]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in attitude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.

[Mr. Body]

Impressive Mitch kept with Castle handling the ball a ton down the stretch. The kid doesn't let plays get to him.

The last couple minutes was excellent basketball on both ends. Four threes in a row.

Overreact in circumstance, but this game showed the problems OKC continues to face. They overlooked the Spurs a bit, but they continue to have trouble with bigs of most any kind. Obviously they were missing Chet, but this was the issue even with him vs. Dallas in the POs. Their almost all-guard line-ups can get pushed around. And, they lack a second go-to guy other than SGA. Also a problem vs. Dallas.

As for the Spurs, this is where the vets came through massively. Paul, of course, that leaning three was vintage. Barnes also settled things. This was an L last year. The confidence of having it a win and how to handle late-games is big.

[Mr. Body]

Also, game shows how the process working with Wemby continues. This offense was more free-flowing. Eventually will get there with Vic but there's still a lot of deference and waiting around.

[LeBowen]

Finally caught up with this, great win. As already said, obvious growth compared to last season when this would've been an L because we'd crumble during OKC's late run.
CP3's best game so far, Barnes finally stepped up and wasn't just a bystander.
Bassey showed he's worth the hype some users have been making.
Champagnie's contract will be ridiculous value over the next few years. He won't ever be a star, but a great role player to have.
Castle impacted everything despite a poor shooting night. He already looks bigger than SGA, in a couple of years he'll bully every guard in the league.

I don't believe in Keldon's resurgence, though.
Should get back to .500 with a win against Utah before the next real test. Hopefully Wemby and Devin are back for GSW game.

[Mugen]

Best win of the season tbh.

Just really nice to seemingly have a coach that actually cares about winning and holds his players accountable. I know for a fact a certain somebody would have had Malaki Branham closing that game instead of Castle last night :lol

[LeBowen]

Best win of the season tbh.

Just really nice to seemingly have a coach that actually cares about winning and holds his players accountable. I know for a fact a certain somebody would have had Malaki Branham closing that game instead of Castle last night :lol

What I found interesting was Mitch's half-time speech on Tv, don't remember the last time cameras were in Spurs locker room during a game.

[jesterbobman]

Thunder have done a really good job with small lineups, but this shows the issue with missing iHart and Chet (and, Jaylin Williams) - they're small. Jalen Williams has done a decent job as a 6'5" small ball Centre, but he should be a SF.

Really good win. Castle isn't there yet as a PG against high level defences, but being trusted to deliver is great.

[ginobilized]

A couple of micro-observations:
-No Wesley = better flow and more mins for Castle
-Branham was on a shorter leash and I like this!
-Castle's passing is elite, already. Wow! That is the hardest skill to find. Even though Castle struggled against OKC's formidable pressure, he was better than anyone on last year's squad.
-Tre, as much as I love him, seems overmatched so far.
-The team is so much better than last season. Adding 15-20 wins to last year's total would be phenomenal.

[spurraider21]

ive been begging for Bassey to at least give competition fo Zollins for the backup C minutes. they are so different stylistically that you can just go by matchups. but theres no reason for him to be completely buried.

[Davidicus]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in attitude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.

This is a great point. If he wasn’t shooting we’d all be freaking out. I imagine Pop and coaching staff have reiterated to him to fire when open (like all players)

[LeBowen]

This is a great point. If he wasn’t shooting we’d all be freaking out. I imagine Pop and coaching staff have reiterated to him to fire when open (like all players)

That's the only right way and the fastest way to improve each player.
Unlike previous years we're actually trying to win, but development is still the first priority.
As in we won't sit Castle or tell him not to shoot if it would be beneficial to win that one game, we're looking at the bigger picture.
Let the players play through their mistakes.

[exstatic]

Impressive Mitch kept with Castle handling the ball a ton down the stretch. The kid doesn't let plays get to him.

The last couple minutes was excellent basketball on both ends. Four threes in a row.

Overreact in circumstance, but this game showed the problems OKC continues to face. They overlooked the Spurs a bit, but they continue to have trouble with bigs of most any kind. Obviously they were missing Chet, but this was the issue even with him vs. Dallas in the POs. Their almost all-guard line-ups can get pushed around. And, they lack a second go-to guy other than SGA. Also a problem vs. Dallas.

As for the Spurs, this is where the vets came through massively. Paul, of course, that leaning three was vintage. Barnes also settled things. This was an L last year. The confidence of having it a win and how to handle late-games is big.

A lot of that was CP3. Once he gets past half court,he often passes the ball off to Castle, or one of the other youngsters to run the sets.

[John B]

Again very satisfying win against a better team, despite OKC missing Chet, but the Spurs are missing 3 starters so I say that’s pretty much evens it out.

CP3 was the point god :worthy::worthy::worthy:. That was the reason I hated going against him. He made big baskets when they needed the most. But what caught my attention was he was letting the kid, Castle handle the pressure down the stretch. That was mentoring. Castle I’m sure is learning a lot from CP3 how to calm the situation when the opponents rally. Very commendable of CP3.

That brings to another point. Timvp mentioned that Barnes is too good to be relegated to 5th option. On the contrary, that has been very professional of him. He came here to tutor, to guide and not to takeover games. Sure last night he was more active because the Spurs were missing people, but he’s ready to step-it-up.

Bassey was a monster. I wonder if he could bring this type of game besides Wemby against athletic bigs, because that’s the big man the Spurs need until Wemby becomes post dominant. Shooting would also be good. But I like that Bassey kept it within his comforts only last night.

Keldon is who I expect him every night. I hope he could bottle it. Champs I want him to be more lethal with his 3’s. Defensively he’s getting better and he’s also no longer just a shooter but will take it down when the defense tries to crowd him.

I think last night’s win was a combination of CP3/Barnes calming the team to weather the storm. Last year they would’ve easily lost that lead. Good times. :bobo

[Mugen]

What I found interesting was Mitch's half-time speech on Tv, don't remember the last time cameras were in Spurs locker room during a game.

I mean before Mitch became acting coach, it probably went something along the lines of:
"Who cares? It's just basketball guys. The most important thing is being a great person, let's put up Harriet Tubman's wikipedia page on the big screen. Make sure to give the opponents a big hug after the game." :lol

[John B]

A lot of that was CP3. Once he gets past half court,he often passes the ball off to Castle, or one of the other youngsters to run the sets.

And that was good mentoring. I really think CP3 put it to heart to truly mentor these kids. Some assholes would just take over games and pad their stats as much until their wheels fall off. All those years I hated the guy seems melting away, except maybe 2015 last shot :lol

[scott]

And that was good mentoring. I really think CP3 put it to heart to truly mentor these kids. Some assholes would just take over games and pad their stats as much until their wheels fall off. All those years I hated the guy seems melting away, except maybe 2015 last shot :lol

It yields the same result, but I think CP3 cares less about being a mentor are cares more about not being a fucking loser. CP3 holds a very unique stat - he has led four difference franchises to their all-time winningest seasons. He's a competitor who wants to win, and I think he realizes that helping these youngsters helps winning. It's not some kind of community service project for him.

[RC_Drunkford]

ive been begging for Bassey to at least give competition fo Zollins for the backup C minutes. they are so different stylistically that you can just go by matchups. but theres no reason for him to be completely buried.

there are 35 million reasons

[Chinook]

ive been begging for Bassey to at least give competition fo Zollins for the backup C minutes. they are so different stylistically that you can just go by matchups. but theres no reason for him to be completely buried.

I don't think Bassey is suited for a single-big role, at least not on a team that lacks star guards like the Spurs. His lack of size and scoring versatility holds him back. A competition is fine, and everyone on the team should be given chances. But it doesn't surprise me that Collins is beating him out seeing as Zach is having a very good year (objectively, not just for him) and fits what this team's second unit needs more.

However, I do think Bassey should be a consideration for that utility stint next to Wemby that Mamu has been getting recently. Bass seems like a guy who fits best in the cleanup role next to another big. Think Reggie Evans next to Blake Griffin. If teams aren't going to play their centers on Victor anyway, then there is very little lost if they decide to play two bigs rather than focusing on spacing along the three-point line. Getting that good PnR roll-man on the floor rather than making forwards try to do it should help with the guards who do play in those lineups. Defensively, Bassey's no worse on the perimeter than Mamu, and he's much better at the rim. I'm not saying Sandro can't keep getting chances. I just think the Spurs should be willing to continue to see what combinations work and not just stick with the idea that you need shooters to creating spacing.

[RC_Drunkford]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

[Mr. Body]

A lot of that was CP3. Once he gets past half court,he often passes the ball off to Castle, or one of the other youngsters to run the sets.

Because that's what the staff wanted them to do. They specifically wanted Castle to handle the ball a good deal down the stretch.

[Mr. Body]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

I'm not sure I agree with this. We pounced in the third with a flurry of hits outside. That's today's NBA. They're a very well coached team with a lot of overlap down the roster who can step in and contribute. Our bench is a mess and we are behind past a certain point talent-wise.

However, as I said elsewhere, this Thunder team has appreciable gaps that get worse when Holmgren isn't available. Their tenacious, quick defense can be exploited by a tough, bigger team, and that team was the Mavericks last year. Tbh I didn't think that series last year was particularly close, despite the record, which I think was 4-2. It was pretty lopsided in my eyes. Guys like Lively and Gafford were brutal for them.

And then they depend heavily on SGA with few other options, although their players nail shots out of those routines.

They can overwhelm with defense and execution on offense. They're like the Celtics, really. Both are engineered for this era and it's already got the Celtics a championship and may get the Thunder theirs.

[Spurs Homer]

Nice effort, nice win.

I have nothing but respect and love for pop - and im not saying mitch is the answer going forward beyond this season...

but having said that - this is an example of a win that pop would have turned into a loss by;
a) overplaying branham
b) subbing castle out after a turnover or two (and replacing him with branham or wesley lololol)
c) keeping bassey on the pine and overplaying zollins
d) subbing for keldon in the first half even tho keldon was on fire - pop would have stuck with his "assigned minutes" and subbed keldon according to the regular minutes rotation ....again probably sitting keldon and more branham/wesley lol

Wish the best for pop and part of me wants him to return and let victor take him to the promised land...

But another young promising coach is my preference for the future.

[Joseph Kony]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising
Meh, this is akin to the good ol days when our big three Spurs would play down to the level of their competition and lose to the Charlotte hornets or something. great win for sure, but i wouldnt draw any real conclusions about OKC vs SA based on that, especially when they already beat us (albeit without Vassell). And yeah they are missing their entire big man rotation, not to mention guys like Isiah Joe who is a deadeye shooter and always kill us. they really just shot poorly from three yesterday and didnt get to the line much. if Joe was playing instead of Flagler (1-7 from three) they probably end up winning. Dort, another good shooter, also shot poorly (2-8)

[Joseph Kony]

also kinda crazy that they were missing their entire big rotation and still managed to outrebound us :lol

[spurraider21]

I don't think Bassey is suited for a single-big role, at least not on a team that lacks star guards like the Spurs. His lack of size and scoring versatility holds him back. A competition is fine, and everyone on the team should be given chances. But it doesn't surprise me that Collins is beating him out seeing as Zach is having a very good year (objectively, not just for him) and fits what this team's second unit needs more.

However, I do think Bassey should be a consideration for that utility stint next to Wemby that Mamu has been getting recently. Bass seems like a guy who fits best in the cleanup role next to another big. Think Reggie Evans next to Blake Griffin. If teams aren't going to play their centers on Victor anyway, then there is very little lost if they decide to play two bigs rather than focusing on spacing along the three-point line. Getting that good PnR roll-man on the floor rather than making forwards try to do it should help with the guards who do play in those lineups. Defensively, Bassey's no worse on the perimeter than Mamu, and he's much better at the rim. I'm not saying Sandro can't keep getting chances. I just think the Spurs should be willing to continue to see what combinations work and not just stick with the idea that you need shooters to creating spacing.
i see bassey as being similar to, albeit less skilled than daniel gafford. he does just fine as a single big on dallas. now obviously you have elite guard play there, which is something you mentioned. but its not like bassey has looked awful out there during the last couple of years when on the court

[sananspursfan21]

I’m not saying anything against the potential goat Wemby here, but this team just had a different attitude when he’s not playing. Reminds me so much of the last couple games of last season. It’s like they’re more deadly when they have no pressure

[exstatic]

I’m not saying anything against the potential goat Wemby here, but this team just had a different attitude when he’s not playing. Reminds me so much of the last couple games of last season. It’s like they’re more deadly when they have no pressure

Wemby played in those games, all of them, including the famous 17 points in 3 minutes Denver upset.

Edit. He was held out of the final game vs. Detroit.

[scott]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

[Robz4000]

also kinda crazy that they were missing their entire big rotation and still managed to outrebound us :lol

Spurs still have poor rebounding fundamentals for today's NBA tbh. Mitch has fixed a lot of issues that Pop allowed to fester but that one will take a while.

[Strategic]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season. Yeah his D stats are the point for me. I think he’s improved a little on offense this season but I just can’t buy into Collins yet. Not gonna mention his ball fumbling and poor finishing in the lane.

[Dejounte]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

Someone here said he’s a starting caliber C. The fuck?

[RC_Drunkford]

Someone here said he’s a starting caliber C. The fuck?

if you want the #1 pick he is. We got Wemby that way

[Mugen]

I'll retract any Zollins slander if we can use his contract in a trade that isn't a straight salary dump tbh.

[jjspur]

This would have been a loss last year even with a healthy Wemby. It shows the improvement of the rest of the team even without Wemby or Pop. Hopefully we can get everyone healthy and really show much better we are this year.

[CGD]

I'll retract any Zollins slander if we can use his contract in a trade that isn't a straight salary dump tbh.

We are aging in to peak value of that contract itself. Probably has the most value for matching over the next 2 Februarys. Not nothing given how hard it’s supposed to be for 2nd apron teams to do trades.

[Mugen]

Seems like OKC is not ahead of us by as much as we thought. They were missing guys, but we beat them without our 3 best players while they had 2 of those on the floor. Very promising

It was a good win but definitely wouldn't jump to conclusions. OKC is still far ahead of us IMO.

We're still being propped up by a 40yo CP3 tbh.

Granted, Castle looks good, Sochan looked better in those 5 games, and Vic is shaking off the early season rust.

But top to bottom, their roster is still significantly better and they've got the bigger war chest of assets tbh.

[TDomination]

Keldon Johnson has that tenacity, that aggression and energy that I think is great to have for a team that is trying to become a contender.
He is most definitely not perfect but I believe his positives outweigh his negatives and when used correctly, he is an asset to this team. He's a keeper for the long run IMO.

[timtonymanu]

Best win of the season tbh.

Just really nice to seemingly have a coach that actually cares about winning and holds his players accountable. I know for a fact a certain somebody would have had Malaki Branham closing that game instead of Castle last night :lol

Yep I want Pop to recover but it’s night and day the difference in mentality. Spurs needed a young head for so long now.

[TheBallsbreakers]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in attitude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.
Then why this forum so averse on Wemby shooting those same 3s?

[J_Paco]

Bassey was very impressive. Dude just brings what you want out of a backup C to the court. He should be Victor's primary backup

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

We need him to stay healthy and forcing the coaching staff to play him over - maybe with on rare occasions - Zach Collins. Collins has really fallen off a cliff, so to speak, since being good as Jakob's backup.

He's just too 'weak' to be a center, can't guard quick forwards and doesn't take advantage of his size (like at times last night) for my liking long-term. Plus, there is the fact he isn't good enough as post scorer or perimeter threat to do either reliably.

Just not what we need as a back up to Wemby, IMO.

[jehawk81]

This would have been a loss last year even with a healthy Wemby. It shows the improvement of the rest of the team even without Wemby or Pop. Hopefully we can get everyone healthy and really show much better we are this year.

That might be the biggest reason for the team seeming to play better. Everyone & their grandma could see that basketball hasn't really been Pop's priority for 3-5 years & it showed on the court. The team was held hostage by someone that made everything in life more important than basketball. Now that he's recovering(hopefully) & not hindering this team, we should continue to see this team growing little by little before our very eyes.

[Chinook]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

I am not going to say EPM is a bad stat. I don't really know much about it and how it's calculated, so I don't know where it's weak or strong. Advanced stats like this are more educated opinion than objective reflections of reality, and knowing what they're actually saying matters. For example, Collins having a high PER speaks well to his ability to be heavily involved during the short stints he's been getting this year. That's because the stat is biased toward usage in relation to the other members on the floor. His high win-shares per 48 are based in something similar. Explicitly, Collins has been a good offensive rebounder, is an above-average passer for his position and has scored efficiently. That's why he's doing well in offensive win-shares. He's doing well in defensive win-shares because of his defensive rating, which is mainly a consequence of him being a big on a team that is in the upper third of the league in defensive rating.

I looked into EPM a little bit, but I'm not sure it's not heavily based on on/off stats. If that's the case, Collins grading as poor defensively rather than just average might be the result of having Wembanyama has the other guy playing with him. As mentioned before, his defensive rating is positive relative to the team's score, which suggests that he's not giving up points at too high of a rate. But he's backing up a generational defender whose pull on the defense relative to the average Spur is much stronger. Combined, the stats would suggest Collins is way worse than Wemby defensively but still does enough to be positive. By that same measure, Collins' strong offensive performance as a single big is the highest on the team outside of Paul. It's very hard to fault in him.

Bassey's minutes suggest he's having a good defensive impact in the sample he's been given. That's good. His offense has been less good, but maybe that'll stabilize as he settles in with Jones and the other players. It's hard to tell Mamu's defense relative to Collins, because Mamu has played PF most of his minutes this year. He faces less challenges at the rim and thus doesn't have the same difficulty of contests that centers do. But he also has more space he has to defend being more on the perimeter.

Collins is having a good year, objectively. That means that it's not just that his stats look good for his standards. They look good for all players at his position and relative to the other players on the team. That doesn't mean you can't make an argument against it. However, I think this argument may mean more that Zach struggles to defend when compared to Wemby than it does him being so bad on that end that it negates the offensive impact he's had. As I've said before, my issue isn't with the belief that Collins can't be 80/20'd or just straight upgraded. It's been with folks who seem to need an enemy on the team to complain about. Collins isn't holding the team back just as Johnson isn't holding the team back, just as Castle isn't holding the team back, just as Jones isn't holding the team back, just as Sochan isn't holding the team back. Just because a lot of those guys won't be there when the team is good doesn't mean they aren't helping the team move forward today. This is the best Spurs team we've seen in a number of years. That fact that they aren't perfect is great, because it means things can just keep getting better.

[Chinook]

i see bassey as being similar to, albeit less skilled than daniel gafford. he does just fine as a single big on dallas. now obviously you have elite guard play there, which is something you mentioned. but its not like bassey has looked awful out there during the last couple of years when on the court

When I'm talking about "single-big", I don't simply mean the only big on the team. I think of it more as a versatile big who plays different roles depending on what the team needs in that possession. That means on ball, off ball, finishing and passing. Offensive run by elite guards don't need bigs to wear that many hats. They needs a guy who plays off them well, finish the opportunities they get and get boards. There's nothing wrong with those types of bigs, but the Spurs don't have the perimeter talent to allow their center to play such a focused role. But as I've talked about with Wemby, those parts of a center's skill-set a vital to an offense, which is why I think Bassey/Wembanyama should get some chances. Collins isn't perfect at playing that role either, but he's in the 72th percentile as a roll-man, for example. That's pretty good for a guy who's been shooting well from outside this year and has been passing well.

[CorrectCrusader]

I love the fact that Castle took 7 threes while only making one. It’s a big change in attitude from college where he would shy away from taking threes bc he was scared to miss. I want Castle to continue shooting even when he is missing. It’s an important mindset to have and one he will need if he is going to take that next step.

Agree fully. This is the modern NBA. We can't be afraid to shoot anymore

[spurraider21]

When I'm talking about "single-big", I don't simply mean the only big on the team. I think of it more as a versatile big who plays different roles depending on what the team needs in that possession. That means on ball, off ball, finishing and passing. Offensive run by elite guards don't need bigs to wear that many hats. They needs a guy who plays off them well, finish the opportunities they get and get boards. There's nothing wrong with those types of bigs, but the Spurs don't have the perimeter talent to allow their center to play such a focused role. But as I've talked about with Wemby, those parts of a center's skill-set a vital to an offense, which is why I think Bassey/Wembanyama should get some chances. Collins isn't perfect at playing that role either, but he's in the 72th percentile as a roll-man, for example. That's pretty good for a guy who's been shooting well from outside this year and has been passing well.
i've only heard "single-big" used in the context of being your team's only big on the floor, as opposed to playing alongside a traditional power forward.

but ok... yeah, bassey doesnt have a very diverse game. thats why i likened him to Gafford, who has very specialized duties on both ends and is effective. Bassey hasn't had a ton of time on the floor in the last year or so. he played 19 games last season at about 10mpg. and he's had limited run this year. obviously with that small a sample size, per 36 numbers or advanced stats aren't very reliable. but he has generally held up well, and its not like the eye test has done him a disservice either.

obviously, on/off numbers as impacted by who you are generally subbing in for. naturally, thats going to make both collins/bassey look bad since they're coming in for vic. last season, the spurs scored 1 less point per 100 possessions with bassey on the floor. they scored 6 less with collins. and this year on a very limited sample size (about 60 minutes), the spurs have been better on both ends with him on the floor.

i think at the very least it merits giving him an extended look, even if its lineup based. like sure, if the team has a weaker offensive unit out there like having Tre/Wesley/Castle/Sochan... then yeah collins' scoring/shooting/passing is going to be more valued. but if you have a mix of starters in there and have some of paul/vassell/barnes/mamu in there, its worth seeing how bassey fares.

i really think the backup C should be by committee and based on the matchup and who best rounds out the rest of the unit on the floor. but collins has the contract...

[itzsoweezee]

Collins is a fucking traffic cone on defense. He’s stiff, has zero athleticism, and doesn’t even try on defense half the time. Give all his minutes to bassey and dump Zach onto a team that doesn’t know any better

[Dejounte]

Smh get off your high horse Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) making assumptions about people who believe Collins isn’t good for this team saying that they only do so because they “need an enemy”. Fuck you, dude.

[scott]

I am not going to say EPM is a bad stat. I don't really know much about it and how it's calculated, so I don't know where it's weak or strong. Advanced stats like this are more educated opinion than objective reflections of reality, and knowing what they're actually saying matters. For example, Collins having a high PER speaks well to his ability to be heavily involved during the short stints he's been getting this year. That's because the stat is biased toward usage in relation to the other members on the floor. His high win-shares per 48 are based in something similar. Explicitly, Collins has been a good offensive rebounder, is an above-average passer for his position and has scored efficiently. That's why he's doing well in offensive win-shares. He's doing well in defensive win-shares because of his defensive rating, which is mainly a consequence of him being a big on a team that is in the upper third of the league in defensive rating.

I looked into EPM a little bit, but I'm not sure it's not heavily based on on/off stats. If that's the case, Collins grading as poor defensively rather than just average might be the result of having Wembanyama has the other guy playing with him. As mentioned before, his defensive rating is positive relative to the team's score, which suggests that he's not giving up points at too high of a rate. But he's backing up a generational defender whose pull on the defense relative to the average Spur is much stronger. Combined, the stats would suggest Collins is way worse than Wemby defensively but still does enough to be positive. By that same measure, Collins' strong offensive performance as a single big is the highest on the team outside of Paul. It's very hard to fault in him.

Bassey's minutes suggest he's having a good defensive impact in the sample he's been given. That's good. His offense has been less good, but maybe that'll stabilize as he settles in with Jones and the other players. It's hard to tell Mamu's defense relative to Collins, because Mamu has played PF most of his minutes this year. He faces less challenges at the rim and thus doesn't have the same difficulty of contests that centers do. But he also has more space he has to defend being more on the perimeter.

Collins is having a good year, objectively. That means that it's not just that his stats look good for his standards. They look good for all players at his position and relative to the other players on the team. That doesn't mean you can't make an argument against it. However, I think this argument may mean more that Zach struggles to defend when compared to Wemby than it does him being so bad on that end that it negates the offensive impact he's had. As I've said before, my issue isn't with the belief that Collins can't be 80/20'd or just straight upgraded. It's been with folks who seem to need an enemy on the team to complain about. Collins isn't holding the team back just as Johnson isn't holding the team back, just as Castle isn't holding the team back, just as Jones isn't holding the team back, just as Sochan isn't holding the team back. Just because a lot of those guys won't be there when the team is good doesn't mean they aren't helping the team move forward today. This is the best Spurs team we've seen in a number of years. That fact that they aren't perfect is great, because it means things can just keep getting better.

In this post:

1) You acknowledge you don't understand EPM (voted as the 2nd best advanced statistic by NBA executives, behind DARKO DPM (https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/))
2) instead rely on PER (voted as least preferred advanced statistic by NBA executives because it is heavily box-score dependent. You can read all about it's flaws here (https://thezscore.com/2016/02/17/the-definitive-per-criticism/).)
3) You use win shares (voted as the second least preferred advanced statistic by NBA executives) to validate what PER told you.

Aside from the fact we can all see Zach Collins getting abused on the defensive every night with our own eyeballs, the advanced metrics send mix messages. Zach's DARKO so far this is is -2.0, almost as bad as last year's -2.4 (to go along with his below-median EPM). On the other hand, Zach's BPM has improved from -2.0 last year to +3.3 this year. Other figures are just as mixed. his Crafted OPM ranks in the 16th percentile in the league, but his Craft DPM places him in the 64th percentile (his overall Craft Plus Minus rates him in the 32nd percentile, the bottom 3rd of players in the league).

What do all of these mixed signals tell us? It's hard to say. But one thing it doesn't tell us is that "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season".

For those who like Crafted Plus Minus (found at craftednba.com), Zach's career Crafted OPM places him in the 6th percentile. Yes... the bottom 6% of all players in the NBA :lol. His Crafted DPM is 35th percentile. Certainly a guy you want to pay $17MM year to.

Your entire last paragraph is just superfluous gobbledygook. The fact that Zach Collins isn't singlehandedly holding the team back is hardly a reason to spare him from criticism.

One conclusion I can draw here, however, is that your analysis here is objectively bad.

[Chinook]

Smh get off your high horse Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) making assumptions about people who believe Collins isn’t good for this team saying that they only do so because they “need an enemy”. Fuck you, dude.

To be honest, I wasn't thinking about you at all when I wrote that. But I guess it makes sense that you'd feel called out, as you're one of the biggest drama posters on this site nowadays.

[The Truth #6]

Last game I just relied on subjective eye testing, but it sure seemed like Bassey helped us go on runs and Zollins would let leads go to deficits. But Bassey was simply creating winning plays, like tip out, offensive rebounds, put backs. It seemed obvious to everyone, including the announcers who likely never heard of him before, that he was having a very impactful game.

Matchups played a big role, I imagine. At the least, he should be considered in the future when the matchups seem appropriate.

Here's the thing. It feels like Bassey is totally okay being a backup player, whereas Zollins still feels like he's supposed to be a starter in the league.

[Atl Spur]

Even a quality win doesn’t make most here happy; spurstalk will always make you pick a side:( Zach & Charles did their jobs this game and hopefully they can repeat. Dejounte, you are wilding homie… it’s just a message board. Go Spurs Go

[Dejounte]

To be honest, I wasn't thinking about you at all when I wrote that. But I guess it makes sense that you'd feel called out, as you're one of the biggest drama posters on this site nowadays.

Little do I care if the post was targeted towards me or not. It was a trash take, and very belittling of many posters here who share that view of Collins. So spare me that weak attempt at an insult when I don’t GAF what you think.

[Chinook]

In this post:

Your response will proceed to fundamentally misunderstand the entire argument. That you think EPM, PER, win-shares or DARKO DPM are supposed to be equivalent stats is a problem. All advanced stats were created to emphasize certain elements over others. That might be in an attempt to make a catch-all stat. But the performance NBA players can't and shouldn't be boiled down to one number, so it makes more sense to look at those stats through their methodology rather than trying to assign them an overarching "reliability" rating.

For example:


2) instead rely on PER (voted as least preferred advanced statistic by NBA executives because it is heavily box-score dependent. You can read all about it's flaws here (https://thezscore.com/2016/02/17/the-definitive-per-criticism/).)

This isn't what I did at all. What I did was talk about what Collins' high PER score meant. I didn't say "Collins' PER shows he's better than Bassey" I said, (paraphrasing) "Given what PER measures, Collins having a high PER reflects his efficient scoring and high number of stats collected relative to the other players on the court with him." That's not me putting one stat over the other. That's me going back through the methodology to unpack why he got a good score. It's like if I explained why Collins has a good TS%, and you slid in here complaining about how I'm trying to "rely" on it.

I know you aren't dumb, Scott. You can understand that me saying that I can't interpret EPM without having read its formula and methodology isn't the same thing as saying it's witchcraft and I don't believe in it. I also know that you've been around long enough to not fall into the trap of thinking plus-minus is a bad stat because it "doesn't say who's better". Plus-minus, win-shares, PER, DARKO, EPM -- they're all just numbers. They equal what they equal. They don't have a weight of authority to them to say who's been better or worse. Instead, they all fit into a narrative.


Aside from the fact we can all see Zach Collins getting abused on the defensive every night with our own eyeballs, the advanced metrics send mix messages. Zach's DARKO so far this is is -2.0, almost as bad as last year's -2.4 (to go along with his below-median EPM). On the other hand, Zach's BPM has improved from -2.0 last year to +3.3 this year. Other figures are just as mixed. his Crafted OPM ranks in the 16th percentile in the league, but his Craft DPM places him in the 64th percentile (his overall Craft Plus Minus rates him in the 32nd percentile, the bottom 3rd of players in the league).

What do all of these mixed signals tell us? It's hard to say. But one thing it doesn't tell us is that "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season".

I feel like at this point, you're purposefully misreading the term "objectively". It really wasn't ambiguous the first time I said it, and I clarified in the post you're responding to here. I am not saying "objective" as in "all the stats agree". I said it to mean, "not just relative to his past performances". So no, I'm not saying "You can't come up with a stat to prove me wrong, nah-nah."


Your entire last paragraph is just superfluous gobbledygook. The fact that Zach Collins isn't singlehandedly holding the team back is hardly a reason to spare him from criticism.

This is just an attempt to take the middle. No one is saying you can't criticize any player on the team. They all have deserved it at times, and even at their best, none of them is perfect. I'm talking about the fixation on the player's flaws and the need blow them out of proportion, even when the player is doing well. Yes, it's good we agree that Collins isn't singlehandely holding the team back. But what we don't agree on is that the team isn't being held back at all. Not by Collins, not by a conjunction of players. They're moving forward. And yes, I think people should come out of their caves and appreciate that.

Similar to you, I would like to see the front office recognize a chance to improve their team this year rather than hoping for the draft as the main avenue of improvement. The difference is I don't see a mediocre record this season as a failure for the team. I have a more conservative timeline for them, and they're moving along very well in relation to that. In that regard, I don't find much to complain about. I did earlier in the season and was vociferous in expressing that complaint. But when I see the changes I want start to happen, I complain less. I don't just move on to the next thing on my list.


One conclusion I can draw here, however, is that your analysis here is objectively bad.

You're a good dude, and I hope you're just frustrated about the season not meeting your ambitious targets. I don't mind vigorously debating this stuff, but I also don't want to get so lost in this back-and-forth over the team that we lose track. Ever since Teeds left hinting that he's been struggling with stuff, it just makes me think that a lot of us old-timers are getting up there. Life has thrown a lot of curve balls. I hope you're doing well, man.

[Chinook]

Little do I care if the post was targeted towards me or not. It was a trash take, and very belittling of many posters here who share that view of Collins. So spare me that weak attempt at an insult when I don’t GAF what you think.

I mean, you definitely give a fuck what a lot of posters think. Your history of getting into spats with folks over and over speaks for itself. Though I guess you might be so poorly adjusted that you say, "fuck you" to random people on the bus.

[Dejounte]

I mean, you definitely give a fuck what a lot of posters think. Your history of getting into spats with folks over and over speaks for itself. Though I guess you might be so poorly adjusted that you say, "fuck you" to random people on the bus.

Ha! Continue deflecting from your trash take and go at me, dissecting my post history for what? You’re accomplishing nothing except evidently overthinking (not a surprise here) who I am based on your characterization of me on a message board.

[exstatic]

Smh get off your high horse Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) making assumptions about people who believe Collins isn’t good for this team saying that they only do so because they “need an enemy”. Fuck you, dude.

This is basically what drives this board, Collins or whoever. Manu/Tony, Dejounte/Derrick, people need to objectify and revile someone. Pink Floyd wrote a song about it that was on the classic album Dark Side of the Moon: Us and Them.

[scott]

Your response will proceed to fundamentally misunderstand the entire argument. That you think EPM, PER, win-shares or DARKO DPM are supposed to be equivalent stats is a problem. All advanced stats were created to emphasize certain elements over others. That might be in an attempt to make a catch-all stat. But the performance NBA players can't and shouldn't be boiled down to one number, so it makes more sense to look at those stats through their methodology rather than trying to assign them an overarching "reliability" rating.

For example:



This isn't what I did at all. What I did was talk about what Collins' high PER score meant. I didn't say "Collins' PER shows he's better than Bassey" I said, (paraphrasing) "Given what PER measures, Collins having a high PER reflects his efficient scoring and high number of stats collected relative to the other players on the court with him." That's not me putting one stat over the other. That's me going back through the methodology to unpack why he got a good score. It's like if I explained why Collins has a good TS%, and you slid in here complaining about how I'm trying to "rely" on it.

I know you aren't dumb, Scott. You can understand that me saying that I can't interpret EPM without having read its formula and methodology isn't the same thing as saying it's witchcraft and I don't believe in it. I also know that you've been around long enough to not fall into the trap of thinking plus-minus is a bad stat because it "doesn't say who's better". Plus-minus, win-shares, PER, DARKO, EPM -- they're all just numbers. They equal what they equal. They don't have a weight of authority to them to say who's been better or worse. Instead, they all fit into a narrative.



I feel like at this point, you're purposefully misreading the term "objectively". It really wasn't ambiguous the first time I said it, and I clarified in the post you're responding to here. I am not saying "objective" as in "all the stats agree". I said it to mean, "not just relative to his past performances". So no, I'm not saying "You can't come up with a stat to prove me wrong, nah-nah."



This is just an attempt to take the middle. No one is saying you can't criticize any player on the team. They all have deserved it at times, and even at their best, none of them is perfect. I'm talking about the fixation on the player's flaws and the need blow them out of proportion, even when the player is doing well. Yes, it's good we agree that Collins isn't singlehandely holding the team back. But what we don't agree on is that the team isn't being held back at all. Not by Collins, not by a conjunction of players. They're moving forward. And yes, I think people should come out of their caves and appreciate that.

Similar to you, I would like to see the front office recognize a chance to improve their team this year rather than hoping for the draft as the main avenue of improvement. The difference is I don't see a mediocre record this season as a failure for the team. I have a more conservative timeline for them, and they're moving along very well in relation to that. In that regard, I don't find much to complain about. I did earlier in the season and was vociferous in expressing that complaint. But when I see the changes I want start to happen, I complain less. I don't just move on to the next thing on my list.



You're a good dude, and I hope you're just frustrated about the season not meeting your ambitious targets. I don't mind vigorously debating this stuff, but I also don't want to get so lost in this back-and-forth over the team that we lose track. Ever since Teeds left hinting that he's been struggling with stuff, it just makes me think that a lot of us old-timers are getting up there. Life has thrown a lot of curve balls. I hope you're doing well, man.

My friend, "objectively" does not have a subjective meaning. When one says "Player X is having an objectively good season" that implies that there is no subjectivity to it. The sky is objectively blue. Squares objectively have four 90-degree angles. Jokic is objectively having a great season.

You can't say Zach Collins is having an objectively good season, when 1) clearly lots of rational people disagree (in addition to the irrational ones) and 2) not even all the different ways of cutting the statistics agree.

That you've conjured up some other meaning to "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season" when, in fact, what you appear to mean is that your subjective opinion is that Zach Collins is having a good season, and not just relative to his past performance. That's a fine opinion to fine, and we could debate that. But that's not what you said. Words matter, my friend.

[rankingtear]

Zach Collins grades out in the bottom 16% of the league in Defensive EPM; and bottom 44% in overall EPM, but I'm told he's having an objectively good season.

They changed the formula though to be more like a projection. They have guys in there that haven't played a game yet.

[RC_Drunkford]

to be fair Chinook was never good when it comes to evaluating bigs. In his mind Keldon Johnson is still a PF and Gasol on his last legs was better than Poeltl (basically the same situation we have now with Collins/Bassey). Now he's gon make this longass post how all these takes were still right.

[spurraider21]

:corn:

[Chinook]

My friend, "objectively" does not have a subjective meaning. When one says "Player X is having an objectively good season" that implies that there is no subjectivity to it. The sky is objectively blue. Squares objectively have four 90-degree angles. Jokic is objectively having a great season.

You can't say Zach Collins is having an objectively good season, when 1) clearly lots of rational people disagree (in addition to the irrational ones) and 2) not even all the different ways of cutting the statistics agree.

The fact that you've conjured up some other meaning to "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season." In fact, what you appear to mean is that your subjective opinion is that Zach Collins is having a good season, and not just relative to his past performance. That's a fine opinion to fine, and we could debate that. But that's not what you said. Words matter, my friend.

I actually think the conversation about objective/subjective and relative/absolute is more complicated than you're suggesting here. In a vacuum, I concede I should have said "absolutely" instead to indicate it not being relative to Collins' past. But "absolutely good" has a more common meaning that would've made the sentence more ambiguous. More importantly, though, things can be objective but still contradicted. There's a whole series rabbit holes to go down about what words actually mean, in terms of denotation, connotation and implicature.

To spare us from that., I'll go ahead and take the L on the point. With that established, hopefully the argument about looking at advanced stats for what they actually say rather than trying to look at the in the context of being catch-all authorities makes sense. EPM doesn't disprove PER or win-shares. Despite what folks (including the creators) say, none of those stats actually measure "goodness". They are shorthand for certain batches of stats, and I think it's much more useful to use stats that I already know how to interpret rather than trying to find what execs think is the single-best. EPM might be good, but until I know what meat is going in that sausage, I won't be able to put it into the narrative.

Where is Collins scoring badly in that leads to that stat? Is it that guys are teeing off on him at the rim? It doesn't look like it, as Collins is 37th out of 90 players who've played at the position this year in terms of lowering the FG% of shots he contests. (For context, there are a lot of players above him with tiny sample sizes. Also, Wemby is fourth, dropping the FG% by more than 10 points by contesting the shots.) It's not that he doesn't contest a lot of shots -- he's 20th in the league in contests per minute, more than anyone else on the team. Maybe it's his fouling -- he does that more than any other rotation player on the team. Or maybe he's allowing a lot of offensive rebound -- that's harder to tell in a non-relative sense, but he's definitely worse than Victor in that regard.

EPM, from the very little I've read has two components: a nebulous "box score stat" and RAPM. Let's start with the latter first. If people don't know, RAPM is a great stat, but it has a lot of inertia due to its a priori element. It can provide evidence on who the best players are over a stretch of years or better yet whole careers, but it isn't designed to reflect changes in performance. A 15-game sample size is laughably small for RAPM. So the RAPM half of EPM is overwhelmingly based on Collins' career performance and very little on what he's doing this year. The other half, called SPM, is also RAPM, but adjusted with current-season data. If that's correct, then EPM is almost exclusively RAPM, especially at this point in the year with so little box score data.

This is the post I've read about EPM: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1bcxrx3/methodologies_for_epm_and_lebron/

With that in mind, I don't think it's a very good stat to use to counter the argument that Collins is having a good year right now. It's overwhelmingly influenced by Collins having a bad defensive career so far. That's valid when talking about Collins in general, but Collins could be playing perfectly and still suffering in that stat for the reasons I said above. EPM is another attempt to make RAPM more responsive to recent events, just as RPM was from ESPN a few years ago. RAPM, for all of its virtues, isn't made for instant reactions. It has so much strength because it's divorced from all that. Because of its strong base, it wouldn't be shocking to me to see it be so well liked, but using it to describe a young season feels like a misuse of the metric.

[Chinook]

to be fair Chinook was never good when it comes to evaluating bigs. In his mind Keldon Johnson is still a PF and Gasol on his last legs was better than Poeltl (basically the same situation we have now with Collins/Bassey). Now he's gon make this longass post how all these takes were still right.

I guess you'd be shocked to see what position Keldon's been playing this year.

[scott]

I actually think the conversation about objective/subjective and relative/absolute is more complicated than you're suggesting here. In a vacuum, I concede I should have said "absolutely" instead to indicate it not being relative to Collins' past. But "absolutely good" has a more common meaning that would've made the sentence more ambiguous. More importantly, though, things can be objective but still contradicted. There's a whole series rabbit holes to go down about what words actually mean, in terms of denotation, connotation and implicature.

To spare us from that., I'll go ahead and take the L on the point. With that established, hopefully the argument about looking at advanced stats for what they actually say rather than trying to look at the in the context of being catch-all authorities makes sense. EPM doesn't disprove PER or win-shares. Despite what folks (including the creators) say, none of those stats actually measure "goodness". They are shorthand for certain batches of stats, and I think it's much more useful to use stats that I already know how to interpret rather than trying to find what execs think is the single-best. EPM might be good, but until I know what meat is going in that sausage, I won't be able to put it into the narrative.

Where is Collins scoring badly in that leads to that stat? Is it that guys are teeing off on him at the rim? It doesn't look like it, as Collins is 37th out of 90 players who've played at the position this year in terms of lowering the FG% of shots he contests. (For context, there are a lot of players above him with tiny sample sizes. Also, Wemby is fourth, dropping the FG% by more than 10 points by contesting the shots.) It's not that he doesn't contest a lot of shots -- he's 20th in the league in contests per minute, more than anyone else on the team. Maybe it's his fouling -- he does that more than any other rotation player on the team. Or maybe he's allowing a lot of offensive rebound -- that's harder to tell in a non-relative sense, but he's definitely worse than Victor in that regard.

EPM, from the very little I've read has two components: a nebulous "box score stat" and RAPM. Let's start with the latter first. If people don't know, RAPM is a great stat, but it has a lot of inertia due to its a priori element. It can provide evidence on who the best players are over a stretch of years or better yet whole careers, but it isn't designed to reflect changes in performance. A 15-game sample size is laughably small for RAPM. So the RAPM half of EPM is overwhelmingly based on Collins' career performance and very little on what he's doing this year. The other half, called SPM, is also RAPM, but adjusted with current-season data. If that's correct, then EPM is almost exclusively RAPM, especially at this point in the year with so little box score data.

This is the post I've read about EPM: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1bcxrx3/methodologies_for_epm_and_lebron/

With that in mind, I don't think it's a very good stat to use to counter the argument that Collins is having a good year right now. It's overwhelmingly influenced by Collins having a bad defensive career so far. That's valid when talking about Collins in general, but Collins could be playing perfectly and still suffering in that stat for the reasons I said above. EPM is another attempt to make RAPM more responsive to recent events, just as RPM was from ESPN a few years ago. RAPM, for all of its virtues, isn't made for instant reactions. It has so much strength because it's divorced from all that. Because of its strong base, it wouldn't be shocking to me to see it be so well liked, but using it to describe a young season feels like a misuse of the metric.

At the end of the day, your opinion on the season Collins is having is just that: your opinion, which by the very nature of opinions is subjective. Likewise, my opinion of his season (in addition to everyone else's) is also just that: my opinion. Trying to categorize things into "absolutes" using terms like "objectively" just set you up for failure, unless you're talking about things that would not be disputed by most reasonable people.

Here are some examples of Spurs-related absolute/objectively statements I think one can safely make:

Wemby is objectively one of the greatest defensive forces in the league
Castle is absolutely showing promise as a rookie
Sochan has objectively shown improvement from last year
Mitch Johnson has absolutely resulted in a more modern style of game play


The degree to which any of the above are true are subject to debate, but almost no reasonable people would disagree with those statements prima facie. Whereas saying "Zach Collins is objectively having a good season" can be (and has been) disputed by reasonable people. Had you said "Zach Collins is objectively having a better season than last", then there would be less dispute.

The discussion into advanced metrics, I'm not going to get into at this time (though could make a fun thread on its own), because the only reason I got into those metrics is in direct response to the assertion that "Zach Collins is objectively having a good season". Getting into the weeds on advanced stats is besides the point here. They were brought up to show how they vary in what they tell us about Zach Collins. Something cannot be objectively true if there is contradictory data suggesting otherwise. A very elementary example: if you told me that John Doe was objectively a good person but then I showed you video evidence of John Doe killing a bunch of puppies... I think I'd have pretty easily disproven the premise that John Doe is a good person.

I'll look forward to the advanced stats discussion thread :)

[Chinook]

Bro, don't do this. I just said I took the L on the "objective" conversation. Don't immediately go and misuse the terms after I did that. "Objective" and "subjective" aren't based on consensus or being able to reasonably argue against them. That's just not what the words mean. Objecting truths are true even if nobody believes them, and a belief everyone holds can still be subjective.

I think Wemby is one of the greatest defensive forces in the league. I don't know anyone who doesn't also think that. But "Wemby is one of the greatest defensive forces in the league" is still a subjective statement. An objective statement is "Wemby has the most defensive win-shares on the team." The latter is merely saying one number is bigger than the others. That doesn't require any value judgment or interpretation. "Greatest defensive force" does require interpretation and thus is subjective. You have to determine how that is evaluated, and while it might not seem reasonable to make a rubric that doesn't lead to Victor being near or at the top, it's not illogical or impossible to do so. It is impossible to say Wemby doesn't have more win-shares than anyone else on the team, because that's just how numbers work.

By this logic, I COULD establish that Collins is "objectively" having a good season just by proving all of your counter arguments are unreasonable. I've already poked holes into EPM and gave a (albeit fallacious) argument against the eye-test. I should have a path forward to demonstrate the goodness of Collins' performance as objective reality. However, no. My statement would remain subjective even if everyone on the forum was slobbering all over Zach's knob. I conceded because a value judgment can't be objective, not because you can bring up an argument against it. I do think you've demonstrated why I was right to hesitate on using "absolutely good" instead. Our disagreement in this matter was started over whether Collins was having a good season or just "a good season by his standards". We got sidetracked because I used imprecise language, and I can own that. But I don't think the original sentiment behind the remark has been shown to be any weaker than it was when I initial stated it. This isn't an advanced stats thread, but it's not a linguistic, logic or philosophy thread either. "Objective/absolute" is the sideshow to the argument about EPM and the other stats, not the other way around. The conversation has been about gauging Collins' performance, though I understand if that's become exhausting at this point.

[CorrectCrusader]

I'm not sure I agree with this. We pounced in the third with a flurry of hits outside. That's today's NBA. They're a very well coached team with a lot of overlap down the roster who can step in and contribute. Our bench is a mess and we are behind past a certain point talent-wise.

However, as I said elsewhere, this Thunder team has appreciable gaps that get worse when Holmgren isn't available. Their tenacious, quick defense can be exploited by a tough, bigger team, and that team was the Mavericks last year. Tbh I didn't think that series last year was particularly close, despite the record, which I think was 4-2. It was pretty lopsided in my eyes. Guys like Lively and Gafford were brutal for them.

And then they depend heavily on SGA with few other options, although their players nail shots out of those routines.

They can overwhelm with defense and execution on offense. They're like the Celtics, really. Both are engineered for this era and it's already got the Celtics a championship and may get the Thunder theirs.

The problem with OKC in the playoffs last year is that they stopped hitting shots against the mavs.

[scott]

We got sidetracked because I used imprecise language

You may have gotten sidetracked, but I didn't. My entire point was going after the statement "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season."
"Objective/absolute" is the sideshow to the argument about EPM and the other stats, not the other way around. The conversation has been about gauging Collins' performance, though I understand if that's become exhausting at this point.

I disagree, and I believe it is the other way around. But we can agree to disagree there. There isn't an argument about stats here. It was entirely a discussion about whether "Zach Collins is having an objectively good season." Perhaps you're having a different conversation with someone else?

But to wrap up the conversation on objective - something is not deemed objective because the consensus of reasonable people agrees with them... you are correct. But the consensus of reasonable people agree with them is because they are objectively true. "Wemby is one of the greatest defensive forces in the league" is a vague, but still objectively true, statement that can be backed up with facts.

Anyway, you took your L, and I appreciate that. It's why you remain better than the vast majority of commentators on this website and why I enjoy and appreciate you. When Academy starts selling Bassey t-shirts, I'll get you one.

[RC_Drunkford]

I guess you'd be shocked to see what position Keldon's been playing this year.

obviously SF until Sochan got injured. He's playing PF cause we don't have any besides Barnes (we have Mamu but Mitch ain't really playing him). :lol I knew this was coming

[KobesAchilles]

Then why this forum so averse on Wemby shooting those same 3s?
2 things. There is a sweet spot in attempts and averaging like 12 a game isn’t the best for Vic. And secondly, Victor just jacking up 3s is bailing the defense out. He’s 7 foot 5. I’m not saying he has to post up every possession or something like that but his ass should be shooting closer to the basket

[Kyle_Kuzma]

shut up chinook no one reading all that shit

[Mugen]

:lol

[timtonymanu]

How long does it take Chinook to type out these responses? Everything is like an essay.

[spurraider21]

How long does it take Chinook to type out these responses? Everything is like an essay.
i like chinook and he's one of the folks here who provides meaningful input and makes this a good place to talk spurs

with that said i want to coin ChinookGPT

[timtonymanu]

i like chinook and he's one of the folks here who provides meaningful input and makes this a good place to talk spurs

with that said i want to coin ChinookGPT

Yeah I’m fine with him as he provides insightful commentary. I just cannot ever find the energy to type essay long responses on here lol.

[Chinook]

How long does it take Chinook to type out these responses? Everything is like an essay.

Real-talk: sometimes hours. It's not really the words as much as it's the research that goes behind the words. Like I had to read up on EPM in order to actually try to discuss it meaningfully. When someone posts a still pic of Wemby surrounded by a bunch of guys, I have to try to find a clip of that game and figure out what happened. When I have the time, I don't mind doing it, because I feel like explaining something to someone else helps me understand it better. However, yeah, I've had to make a point this year to let more conversations go. I wasn't kidding when I was talking about Teeds a few posts ago. We're all getting older, and fitting Spurstalk into a changing paradigm isn't always simple for me. I can afford to write short essays here or there, but I can't get into nearly as many long back-and-forths as I used to. I've had multiple long-ass draft posts binned because I realized it was a waste of time and it would be better to just that conversation end.

It's not that I have any issue separate ST from real life. It's more that I've needed to start thinking of it as a hobby rather than just down time on the computer. Otherwise, I get no scroll time because I'm too busy writing a short essay about something no one cares about anyway.

[timtonymanu]

Real-talk: sometimes hours. It's not really the words as much as it's the research that goes behind the words. Like I had to read up on EPM in order to actually try to discuss it meaningfully. When someone posts a still pic of Wemby surrounded by a bunch of guys, I have to try to find a clip of that game and figure out what happened. When I have the time, I don't mind doing it, because I feel like explaining something to someone else helps me understand it better. However, yeah, I've had to make a point this year to let more conversations go. I wasn't kidding when I was talking about Teeds a few posts ago. We're all getting older, and fitting Spurstalk into a changing paradigm isn't always simple for me. I can afford to write short essays here or there, but I can't get into nearly as many long back-and-forths as I used to. I've had multiple long-ass draft posts binned because I realized it was a waste of time and it would be better to just that conversation end.

It's not that I have any issue separate ST from real life. It's more that I've needed to start thinking of it as a hobby rather than just down time on the computer. Otherwise, I get no scroll time because I'm too busy writing a short essay about something no one cares about anyway.

Yeah do you tbh. I have no issue with your posts anyway but I just can’t imagine having the energy to do it especially when people sometimes engage in unhealthy discourse with you.

[cutewizard]

We

Are

GROWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yihaaaaaahahahahahhaahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa a