Who do you have as the GOAT/better player between LeBron and MJ?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It seems the gen Z kids are pushing towards LeBron as the goat and the millennials and older are more in the MJ camp. I imagine this forum skews older but just curious what the thoughts are on here.

[DAF86]

MJ and it really isn't very close.

[chubbs]

MJ is the goat by resume, pretty tough to argue otherwise

but lebron is pretty objectively a better all around basketball player who played against more consistently tough competition and had his first 7 years of competition for championships wasted thanks to a galatically incompetent front office

[ambchang]

It's way closer than people think or willing to admit. People throw out that 6 rings thing as in:
1) They played in the same era;
2) Jordan had scrubs for teammates.

People has to understand how overwhelming that Bulls perimeter defence was. Yes, Jordan was a huge part of it, but Pippen was simply the best perimeter player I have ever seen. 1992 to 1996 Pippen was one of the most underrated primes ever. The Bulls were also carefully constructed to allow Jordan to flourish. Outside shooting bigs to open up the lanes for Jordan and also get his missed shots, non-ball handling "PGs" who does nothing but shoot open threes.

Lebron on the other hand, never really had a team that was built for him. LeGM did this to himself, but that's what it is.

Lebron's prime was every bit as dominant as Jordan's was. Jordan should've won MVP every year from 1988 to 1998 (outside of the gambling suspension years), Lebron should have won every year from 2008 to 2014, but Lebron's other years were simply stronger, the guy played 20+ years or absolutely incredible basketball, where every single year is an All-star level player. That is simply unheard of. He is just as good a scorer as Jordan was, better passer, better defender, better shooter.

Accolades, narratives, and resume, sure, Jordan, but when you really look at it objectively, and take away all the team accomplishments and just look at the individual player, Lebron.

[Donald Sterling.]

Lebron's activism and philanthropism off the court puts him over the top imho. Very reminiscent of a modern day Dr King tbh.

MJ never had to survive while being hunted in the streets on a daily basis. Lebron did. God bless Lebron James.

[Donald Sterling.]

As Harlem used to say, what MJ did to the black community was 50x worse than the crack epidemic.

#NotMyGOAT

[Rummpd]

I have strongly Jordan but this just came out using GOAT points and has James one (and Duncan 4). I need to get the book and look at the methods as the Athletic usually pretty good source. They recently published a book the Top 100 NBA Players (I need to get to see the methods) that allegedly tries to take the subjectivity out of their rankings using what is described briefly online as “GOAT” points. In this James, Jordan, Jabbar, Duncan, and Karl Malone are the top five. Malone is a relative surprise on the list, but he had a high PPG, career total several things and fairly strong analytics both sides of the ball, but no titles. Shaq is 7 and Kobe 11. Again, have to get the book to see if even makes sense. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/

[Tyronn Lue]

Lebron has had a long mostly successful career. From a career perspective, Lebron has had more success for far longer than Michael did while playing basketball. From an overall impact on the game perspective, and how bright they burned at their peaks, MJ wins easily. Even today MJ's impression on the game is greater than Lebron's. No one is comparing other players to Lebron, for example (MJ not included).

[lefty]

Levron tbh

Jordan would be Derozan at best today

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Levron tbh

Jordan would be Derozan at best today

Oh lefty my man

[lefty]

Oh lefty my man

Messi > both

[ambchang]

I have strongly Jordan but this just came out using GOAT points and has James one (and Duncan 4). I need to get the book and look at the methods as the Athletic usually pretty good source. They recently published a book the Top 100 NBA Players (I need to get to see the methods) that allegedly tries to take the subjectivity out of their rankings using what is described briefly online as “GOAT” points. In this James, Jordan, Jabbar, Duncan, and Karl Malone are the top five. Malone is a relative surprise on the list, but he had a high PPG, career total several things and fairly strong analytics both sides of the ball, but no titles. Shaq is 7 and Kobe 11. Again, have to get the book to see if even makes sense. https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5940794/2024/11/26/the-basketball-100-goat-points-book-excerpt/

The list definitely benefits longer careers and as such modern players.

Surprising that the author didn’t take all d teams or DPoY into account (mutombo and Ben Wallace didn’t even make the list and I’d take both of them over quite a few on the list). But it’s a good list directionally.

Karl Malone definitely didn’t belong.

Also didn’t take into account of eras and competition. Getting first team all nba was a lot easier for a PF during the Karl Malone years (only competition was Barkley, and both can make the team as forwards) vs as a centre during the hakeem era (robinson, shaq, ewing and to a lesser extent mutombo, mourning, Daugherty).

[Michael Jordan.]

MJ and it really isn't very close.
^

[Michael Jordan.]

LeBron for most of his career has been scared of the moment.

[FrostKing]

Considering Longevity, Lebron is certaintly Top5. But there are a few guys ahead of him.

[lefty]

Considering Longevity, Lebron is certaintly Top5. But there are a few guys ahead of him.

“a few guys ahead of him”
:lmao


who? Bob Langdowski :lmao

[FrostKing]

“a few guys ahead of him”
:lmao


who? Bob Langdowski :lmao
He got dicked by Duncan, Dirk and Stephen. Just his own Era.

[ambchang]

He got dicked by Duncan, Dirk and Stephen. Just his own Era.

Bird, Isiah, David stern, gamblor. What’s your point?

[FrostKing]

Bird, Isiah, David stern, gamblor. What’s your point?
James would have lost to all of them.

[lefty]

He got dicked by Duncan, Dirk and Stephen. Just his own Era.

exactly

he played tougher competition than Jordan or Wilt ever did

[lefty]

James would have lost to all of them.

:lmao omg

[ambchang]

James would have lost to all of them.

How would you know Jordan wouldn't have lost to Curry, Duncan and Dirk?

[GAustex]

MJ and it really isn't very close.

[baseline bum]

Gotta go MJ, that man was a fucking psycho about winning. Like a more skilled and physically gifted Jerry West.

[lefty]

I respect Michael’s psychopathic competitiveness tbh

I’m like that too minus the talent and athleticism

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

lebron the most gifted all around and he got that dawg in him

but mj was seriously oj-level psycopath on the court

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

change the poll to:

"Who do you have as more likely to outright murder another human being between LeBron and MJ?"

MJ all day

[SupremeGuy]

Lebron would have been mentally broken halfway through a season in the 80s tbh.

[chubbs]

MJ would have been cut from a roster halfway through a season in the 20s tbh

[lefty]

MJ would have been cut from a roster halfway through a season in the 20s tbh
He wouldn’t have survived, they were real men back then!!!

[lefty20]

MJ would be getting bitch slapped by Bronny in the G-League in today's NBA.

League was weak af in the 90s.

[superbigtime]

MJ all day. LeBron is a weakass showman.

[FrostKing]

Half the League today is brain dead off tik toks. Bad League that awakes for 1.5 months.

MJ had the entire globe talking NBA. Who is still watching today in USA?

[FrostKing]

I've personally seen Bulls gear in more nations than all Los Angeles combined. NY hat ofcourse tops.


When you're in a foreign city...can't speak the tongue and WiFi is kaput. But you spot amigo with Bulls shorts (they're fake but his hook isn't)

[lefty]

It’s called marketing, Frosty King


AND WHERE WAS BOB LANGDOWSKI VS LEGANES :lmao

[Donald Sterling.]

Lebron speaks out to media about teams shooting too many 3's. Goes 1-8 from 3 in his next game.

Another classic Lebron talking out of his ass moment :lol

[lefty]

Lebron speaks out to media about teams shooting too many 3's. Goes 1-8 from 3 in his next game.

Another classic Lebron talking out of his ass moment :lol
Dude is the same age as Frostking, give him a break

[TDMVPDPOY]

mj never gave up in any game he played in

as for lebron no killer instinct, when he gets outplayed he coasts or goes pad his stats against the bench ...look at all the 2 finals series aainst the spurs, fkn padded his stats against bench players cause he got shut down against the starters, gayray save that clowns reputation

[lefty]

mj never gave up in any game he played in

as for lebron no killer instinct, when he gets outplayed he coasts or goes pad his stats against the bench ...look at all the 2 finals series aainst the spurs, fkn padded his stats against bench players cause he got shut down against the starters, gayray save that clowns reputation

MJ never gave up?

Except in 4th quarters vs the Pistons in the playoffs where he went AWOL offensively and checked out defensively :lol

while getting his ass handed to him by a midget


ah the Jordan myths

[skin27]

Wenby will be the goat tbh

[Joseph Kony]

LeBron does have a legit argument for the GOAT and he certainly played better teams in a tougher era. But that argument doesnt mean much to me personally because you cant choose your competition. relative to his peers, MJ was on a completely different level than everyone else. Bron has always had KD/Curry on his tail and arguments can be made for either of them being better than LBJ during the "Lebron era."

I have MJ as the GOAT and better player. But not by a huge margin

[FrostKing]

LeBron does have a legit argument for the GOAT and he certainly played better teams in a tougher era. But that argument doesnt mean much to me personally because you cant choose your competition. relative to his peers, MJ was on a completely different level than everyone else. Bron has always had KD/Curry on his tail and arguments can be made for either of them being better than LBJ during the "Lebron era."

I have MJ as the GOAT and better player. But not by a huge margin
Well said


Maybe because I grew up in USA & 90s etc .... but Jordan is the greatest athlete I saw. Any sport. On the field of play he was perfect, the demeanor, class but getting fiery at just the most important moments. Made for TV.

I'll add he illustrated how powerful & yet easy things came for America. Glory days.

[FrostKing]

.

[lefty]

Wenby will be the goat tbh
He would have averaged 100 pts and 200 blocks per game in the shitty 90s tbh

[Killakobe81]

Prime it’s Jordan …
Longevity wise tho that’s Bron and it’s not close
Because titles matter id take MJ or Kareem
But Magic and Kobe are my favorite players

[baseline bum]

Prime it’s Jordan …
Longevity wise tho that’s Bron and it’s not close
Because titles matter id take MJ or Kareem
But Magic and Kobe are my favorite players

Hell naw Kareem over Magic is lunacy

[Rummpd]

I still have Jordan as do 8 polls I have found as a former NBA writer. I look at analytics and he still leads in PER although slightly behind in effective FG% and win shares also has stronger defensive analytics (Duncan by the way is the only player in history top three in both defensive win shares and rating.) One list hoopshype.com has James first and one new book the Athletic Top 100 has James first. I was recently invited to do an interview on an NBA history site about rankings primarily discussing the new book the Top 100 (NBA) by the Athletic written by John Hollinger the founder of PER who became a Memphis executive. It tries to use totally objective measures to rate players. 4,800 players have played in the NBA these are some of what I agree are the top 100 although disagree some on the order. Usually, Jordan is 1 but ere it is James, Jordan, Kareem and Duncan top 4, Wilt 6, Kobe 11, Curry 27 etc. Notice Kobe is usually 10-12 many lists, and Curry 14-20 and Dream ahead of Robison and Malone real high here (and Duncan about 4 spots higher but usually ahead of Kobe and Shaq.)
Link to my podcast interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_KMvvARKI Top 36 on that list. RANK PLAYER GOAT POINTS
1 LeBron James 857.3
2 Michael Jordan 750.2
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 660.1
4 Tim Duncan 504.2
5 Karl Malone 503.6
6 Wilt Chamberlain 499.0
7 Larry Bird 487.7
8 Magic Johnson 486.6
9 Bill Russell 471.5
10 Shaquille O'Neal 459.6
11 Kobe Bryant 457.1
12 Kevin Durant 373.7
13 James Harden 356.2
14 Oscar Robertson 344.5
15 David Robinson 335.1
16 Kevin Garnett 324.1
17 George Mikan 320.0
18 Bob Pettit 317.5
19 Hakeem Olajuwon 316.0
20 Jerry West 315.5
21 Nikola Jokić 307.9
22 Giannis Antetokounmpo 307.1
23 Chris Paul 305.2
24 Charles Barkley 305.0
25 Dirk Nowitzki 297.1
26 Moses Malone 286.0
27 Steph Curry 268.0
28 Julius Erving 230.5
29 Steve Nash 218.7
30 John Stockton 204.2
31 Elgin Baylor 202.5
32 Bob Cousy 196.5
33 Dolph Schayes 184.5
34 Joel Embiid 181.5
35 Dwight Howard 161.0
36 Kawhi Leonard 160.3

[Killakobe81]

Hell naw Kareem over Magic is lunacy

I likely agree with you Bum I missed most of Kareem’s prime
But his resume is crazy and even though I saw mostly older Kareem it was like Duncan on that less chip less defense but some bursts of offensive genius especially in the finals run of 85.
But Magic was the leader the driver of that team …
But you should appreciate the quiet leadership type as a spur fan

[baseline bum]

I likely agree with you Bum I missed most of Kareem’s prime
But his resume is crazy and even though I saw mostly older Kareem it was like Duncan on that less chip less defense but some bursts of offensive genius especially in the finals run of 85.
But Magic was the leader the driver of that team …
But you should appreciate the quiet leadership type as a spur fan

Ain't no leadership coming from bitter ass Kareem. To me the most telling difference was the year before Magic got there Kareem led a team with HOFers Adrian Dantley and Jamal Wilkes plus a good PG in Norm Nixon to a 47-35 record while the year Kareem retired Magic led a team with a similarly talented supporting cast in James Worthy, Byron Scott, and AC Green to a 63-19 record.

[lefty]

Ain't no leadership coming from bitter ass Kareem. To me the most telling difference was the year before Magic got there Kareem led a team with HOFers Adrian Dantley and Jamal Wilkes plus a good PG in Norm Nixon to a 47-35 record while the year Kareem retired Magic led a team with a similarly talented supporting cast in James Worthy, Byron Scott, and AC Green to a 63-19 record.

also, Kareem stat padded in the 70s and choked multiple times
The 70s was lacking in talent because a lot of stars were in the ABA

[ambchang]

I likely agree with you Bum I missed most of Kareem’s prime
But his resume is crazy and even though I saw mostly older Kareem it was like Duncan on that less chip less defense but some bursts of offensive genius especially in the finals run of 85.
But Magic was the leader the driver of that team …
But you should appreciate the quiet leadership type as a spur fan

Kareem's prime was the low point of the NBA in the 70s, the league was in bad shape, lots of talent leaked to the ABA, drugs and what not, and yet Kareem, in his prime, still missed the playoffs, twice I think. You can argue 3 of his six titles were won after he was way over his prime (85 is a maybe, but 87 and 88 he was just a role player). 80 the Lakers won with him out, 82 he was likely the main guy but that was one loaded team.

Not saying Kareem is trash, because he definitely was an all time great, but this view of him being at worst 3rd (behind Jordan and Lebron) is overrating him a bit. His defence has always been suspect, both Moses and Hakeem manhandled him, his stretch in the 70s was not really that great outside of his individual stats.

I always had him at 3 because everybody else did, but I am starting to push him down the list lately, I would take Duncan over him (homer take), I would take Magic, Bird, Hakeem or maybe even Shaq over him. I am can see Wilt and Russell over him but those are really totally different eras.

[Dirks_Finale]

MJ and it's not close.

But LeBron had the better career, and that's not close, either.

And I think this is validated by looking at the highest rated NBA Finals games ever. Most of them involve Jordan and the Bulls. This year's Final's ratings, even if Lebron made it, would likely be at the same level as the Home shopping network or the WNBA.

[chubbs]

tv ratings! the most important measure of how good an individual basketball player is :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Wtf Malone (Rating on rummpd's list he shared)

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/9YhRzCR/NEWS-130618759-AR-0-ORUJYSEFBDNI.jpg

Lebron rode the Euro Carousel

Manu, Dirk & Djokic

[lefty]

https://i.ibb.co/9YhRzCR/NEWS-130618759-AR-0-ORUJYSEFBDNI.jpg

Lebron rode the Euro Carousel

Manu, Dirk & Djokic

It’s Jokic not Djokic :lol
Also, Manu is not European

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/Ng4kPGJd/Screenshot-20250202-221708-Samsung-Internet.jpg