Grades: San Antonio Spurs at Sacramento Kings – Game #20

[spursparker9]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-spurs-kings-2025-game-20/

[tbdog]

Why has timvp abandoned us?

[Brazil]

One thing I was expecting with the arrival of CP3 is a reduced number of assists per game for Victor but as it turns out, his numbers are almost the same than last year and he is now 6 apg the last 5 games.

[RC_Drunkford]

You would think after 5 years Devin would learn how to play defense. But he hasn’t so guess what, he needs to LEARN how to play basketball. Hell there are so many things this dude needs to learnt to be a trustworthy and good basketball player that it scares me you think he knows how to play basketball.

[LeBowen]

^
Just wait until he explains how Devin took bad shots and still doesn't understand how to play the right way.

[100%duncan]

It would be nice if we had a game where we controlled it from start to finish. These comebacks have been great entertainment but hopefully we start starting games and 2nd halves with more urgency and focus.


-This has easily been Steph’s worst game. Largely to be expected that he will have bad games here and there of course.
-Wemby’s passing is really one of his most underrated skills so far. If he can just trim down on some of those lazy cross court passes from the post, he’ll see his TOs drop more.
-Mitch Johnson has been up and down but I think we can all agree that it has been more up than down. The most encouraging thing is Wemby’s’ minutes which have been in the mid 30’s which is where they should be. Big credit to Vic as well for being this “conditioned” already this early in the season. Last year it took him more than half or 3/4th into the season where it didn’t look like he was out of breath in the 4th.
-Vassell is continuing to show why he has the potential to be a #2 option. What a tough shot maker tbh. He can be the Khris to Wemby’s Giannis. Unfortunately, his health is a major concern obviously which will bring on some tough conversations when teams start calling and asking for him as part of a package. Would you pull the trigger as BWright? Tough spot tbh.
-Champ has been unbelievable. As I said in the GT, I’ll gladly eat crow if this dude gets consistent for the season.

[exstatic]

^
Just wait until he explains how Devin took bad shots and still doesn't understand how to play the right way.

His TS% after last night sits at 65%. That’s elite. Kevin Durant is currently at 65%.

[Spurs Homer]

I thought Tre jones changed the game as soon as he entered...the spurs were mostly sleepwalking and on the verge of getting blown out but tre's energy and craftiness changed the game....

of course he gets injured....

Bassey is a one step forward - three steps back -kind of player who needs to harden the fuck up-mentally because his career is not going to thrive if he cannot play with the same intensity he displayed in last weeks breakout game...

If zollins is the guy ahead of you and you are not forcing the coach to have to give you more minutes you are not seizing the moment.

[LeBowen]

His TS% after last night sits at 65%. That’s elite. Kevin Durant is currently at 65%.

But according to KobesAchilles, he doesn't know how to actually play basketball the right way.

Last night's game has shown us we really need a reliable backup big.
Bassey can be nice in some situations, but we can't rely on him or Collins if we're to stay above .500.

I honestly think that upgrading to a solid backup big and having everyone healthy would be enough to make the play-in with ease.

[ginobilized]

Nice win and write-up!

No way we win this game with lat year's team. To win with 1 starter playing horribly is a true sign of growth.

I agree that we need a strong backup center. Either of the 2 V's could be useful. I think that Wemby could share the floor with a better center in spot minutes.

KJ's running hook bank shot is starting to be a nice weapon.

Once Sochan returns, our bench is pretty legit.

[Bruno]

After 20 games, Spurs are 11-9 with their starting lineup featuring:
- Castle and Wembanyama: two 20 years old players.
- Paul: a 39 years old player who was washed up for a lot of people (including myself tbqh).
- Barnes: a solid vet whose previous team had to give up a first round pick swap just to get rid of his contract.
- Champagnie: undrafted player claimed from waivers.

And they are led by a rookie coach...

Spurs are doing damn well despite having a quite unconventional team.

[John B]

Nice win and write-up!

No way we win this game with lat year's team. To win with 1 starter playing horribly is a true sign of growth.

I agree that we need a strong backup center. Either of the 2 V's could be useful. I think that Wemby could share the floor with a better center in spot minutes.

KJ's running hook bank shot is starting to be a nice weapon.

Once Sochan returns, our bench is pretty legit.

So you think Sochan needs to play off the bench? I actually agree as Barnes have been playing great (except last night). Likewise Champ. I don’t know the SL when everybody’s back from minutes restrictions though.

[RC_Drunkford]

looks like the ceiling for this team is much higher than just the 10th seed. I actually think we might be able to get the 6th/7th seed

[John B]

looks like the ceiling for this team is much higher than just the 10th seed. I actually think we might be able to get the 6th/7th seed

It took a heroic triple-double from Wemby and 50% shooting from the 3pt to barely won against a sub-500 team. Hold your horses.

[LeBowen]

After 20 games, Spurs are 11-9 with their starting lineup featuring:
- Castle and Wembanyama: two 20 years old players.
- Paul: a 39 years old player who was washed up for a lot of people (including myself tbqh).
- Barnes: a solid vet whose previous team had to give up a first round pick swap just to get rid of his contract.
- Champagnie: undrafted player claimed from waivers.

And they are led by a rookie coach...

Spurs are doing damn well despite having a quite unconventional team.

We're playing in a strong conference, second best player from last season and one more starter have been non-factors because of injuries. Best point guard from last season has also been injured and yet we're over .500 despite also losing our coach.
Could it have been better? Obviously, but every team loses games they shouldn't, let alone one of the youngest teams in the league.
Considering how many teams that were supposed to be on pace for 50+ wins are struggling, we're in a great spot. We just need to get healthy.

[Spursfanfromafar]

After 20 games, Spurs are 11-9 with their starting lineup featuring:
- Castle and Wembanyama: two 20 years old players.
- Paul: a 39 years old player who was washed up for a lot of people (including myself tbqh).
- Barnes: a solid vet whose previous team had to give up a first round pick swap just to get rid of his contract.
- Champagnie: undrafted player claimed from waivers.

And they are led by a rookie coach...

Spurs are doing damn well despite having a quite unconventional team.

Indeed. What I like about this team is that playing with two veterans has helped the talent that are worth keeping in the team to develop further and become worthy contributors. I mean, Wemby was always going to be great, but he has added a bit more oomph in his passing, has become more versatile on offense and seems to play with a higher IQ. While Castle has been a revelation as a rookie despite his flaws. Heck, even Sochan was better before getting injured.

[spursparker9]

And how many Eastern Conference team the Spurs had played? :lol

Spurs are really to feast soon! :lol

[John B]

We're playing in a strong conference, second best player from last season and one more starter have been non-factors because of injuries. Best point guard from last season has also been injured and yet we're over .500 despite also losing our coach.
Could it have been better? Obviously, but every team loses games they shouldn't, let alone one of the youngest teams in the league.
Considering how many teams that were supposed to be on pace for 50+ wins are struggling, we're in a great spot. We just need to get healthy.

Spurs are trending up. I like Wemby getting more patient and reading plays better, especially with how he was passing last night. I like Castle a lot, obviously he had a rookie moment last night. Spurs couldn’t have gotten better veteran presence than CP3 and Barnes. Champ is becoming a Danny Green-like piece and can compete for that Starting position. I like every piece even Branham streaky shooting (hopefully a more deadlier Gary Neal) and Wesley’s defense, even Sochan’s bad-boy image that could be Spurs defensive face. But I just wish that Collins/Bassey can be more bullish. Those guys need to hit gym together, take Muay Thai or something and learn to become enforcers.

[John B]

And how many Eastern Conference team the Spurs had played? :lol

Spurs are really to feast soon! :lol

Half of the EC teams are tanking. They have 10-11 Hawks at 7th. I think you got the hemispheres reversed

[CorrectCrusader]

Half of the EC teams are tanking. They have 10-11 Hawks at 7th. I think you got the hemispheres reversed

He's saying that the Eastern conference is gonna be free wins for the spurs.

[John B]

He's saying that the Eastern conference is gonna be free wins for the spurs.

Funny I read that “feast on” instead :lol. Yup Spurs are trending up like Bitcoins :lol:bobo

[CGD]

Bassey really missed an opportunity last night. Only thing that helped him was that Collins continued to looks really rough too.

[onechance87]

This starting lineup should stay the same.Wemby has been looking like a mvp with this unit.You dont fck that up.

[John B]

After the Suns game, the Spurs will have 5 games home stand against sub.500 teams :hungry:. They could be in 6th seed by Christmas

[ginobilized]

So you think Sochan needs to play off the bench? I actually agree as Barnes have been playing great (except last night). Likewise Champ. I don’t know the SL when everybody’s back from minutes restrictions though.

Not what I meant, exactly. One of Castle, Champagne, or, most likely, Barnes goes to the bench eventually. A bench of Jones, Vassell, KJ, and one of the aforementioned would be pretty legit.
If/when Vassell starts, our bench gets another strong piece. One serviceable center and we are looking play-in bound, at least.

[Davidicus]

Easily Castles worst game of the year yes. Too much turkey.

Vic looked great but can be lackadaisical on help D sometimes. Feel like he could easily get 1-3 more blocks/gm.

Good to see Vassell burning it. Agreed with everyone here, at this point his long term future is dependent on his health.

We officially need a backup C if we want to make deep playoff runs in near future. Current guys ain’t it.

Loved that free throw cam. Is that new to the NBA or just the Kings have it?

[CGD]

This starting lineup should stay the same.Wemby has been looking like a mvp with this unit.You dont fck that up.

I think they'll end up sending Steph to the bench and inserting Dev. Last night was the first game in a while that i thought Dev played well within the flow of the offense, and not trying to be the primary dude (which hes not anymore). Meanwhile, Champ has been excellent in his role with the starters, and I'm not sure he impacts the game the same way with the second unit.

The open question is the defense. Can the combo of Dev and Sochan help cover up for CP3's lost step in the way Steph does?

[Pauleta14]

After 20 games, Spurs are 11-9 with their starting lineup featuring:
- Castle and Wembanyama: two 20 years old players.
- Paul: a 39 years old player who was washed up for a lot of people (including myself tbqh).
- Barnes: a solid vet whose previous team had to give up a first round pick swap just to get rid of his contract.
- Champagnie: undrafted player claimed from waivers.

And they are led by a rookie coach...

Spurs are doing damn well despite having a quite unconventional team.

Wemby is the definition of a "cheat code"

Just imagine if he had a proper coach and a better roster

[John B]

I think they'll end up sending Steph to the bench and inserting Dev. Last night was the first game in a while that i thought Dev played well within the flow of the offense, and not trying to be the primary dude (which hes not anymore). Meanwhile, Champ has been excellent in his role with the starters, and I'm not sure he impacts the game the same way with the second unit.

The open question is the defense. Can the combo of Dev and Sochan help cover up for CP3's lost step in the way Steph does?

That would be a crime to demote Spurs bright future to the bench. On the contrary, he needs more touches as a starter, and inserting Vassell would take those touches away from him. Champ by default is a perfect compliment as not needing as many touches and would more likely deteriorate in the 2nd squad. It’s a good problem.

[Mugen]

Nice showing from Devin. His shotmaking and shot creation is just invaluable, especially whenever CP3 is no longer on the team.

Champ continues to impress.

When everybody is healthy and off minutes restriction, the SL needs to be: CP3/Devin/Champ/Sochan/Wemby

[onechance87]

Nice showing from Devin. His shotmaking and shot creation is just invaluable, especially whenever CP3 is no longer on the team.

Champ continues to impress.

When everybody is healthy and off minutes restriction, the SL needs to be: CP3/Devin/Champ/Sochan/Wemby

Its best wemby has a pf that can shoot.Sochan needs to be on the bench

[Mugen]

Its best wemby has a pf that can shoot.Sochan needs to be on the bench

If Wemby being an average 3pt shooter is legit (and I think it is) then I think him and Sochan can co-exist in the SL especially if they have CP3/Devin/Champagnie for spacing purposes

[exstatic]

If Wemby being an average 3pt shooter is legit (and I think it is) then I think him and Sochan can co-exist in the SL especially if they have CP3/Devin/Champagnie for spacing purposes

We were starting to see a nice dynamic of Wemby hitting a cutting Sochan to the hoop. This is another area where Vic’s shooting helps us, opening lane space for cutters when the defender turns his head to look at Vic.

[CorrectCrusader]

There can only be one non shooter in the starting lineup before the spacing starts fucking up.

If you put sochan back you're losing Castle

[spurraider21]

even though Bassey faceplanted, im glad that Mitch gave him a shot. its not like Collins has played himself into some guaranteed primary reserve spot. he's been fine this year, but bassey had shown plenty of juice and he should continue to get opportunities other than garbage time. im also glad he pulled the plug and gave collins the second half minutes, even though he played poorly as well.

mitch has spoken about the team's depth in previous pressers. but its not really useful if you arent trying to make use of guys when somebody just isnt getting it done. i've felt similarly about the tre jones/blake wesley dynamic. yes Tre has the consistent track record, seniority, and is simply a more proven, competent player. but other than yesterday prior to getting hurt, he's been ineffective enough this season that i thought his leash should have been shorter. give wesley a few rotation minutes in the first half and see if he has that spark on that day, and if so, ride the hot hand.

i'd like to see more of that from mitch, hell even if it means there are games where branham finds minutes. i dont think we are some playoff team with a set 8 man rotatin or anything like that.

[scott]

A+ Grades from timvp, some of his best and most fair in awhile.

I'd continue to leave the SL as is for now. Devin adds a dynamic off the bench that we are missing. Technically he's still eligible for 6MOY right now :lol In all seriousness, he'll eventually be a long term starter but I would strongly consider letting him be the sixth man this year, still in closing lineups and getting 30+ minutes per game... him coming off the bench just really adds new layers to this team that I think we lose if he goes to the SL. We've got at least a dozen or so games to figure that part out as his ramps up his conditioning.

Sochan on the other hand, we'll have to see. I also like Barnes in the SL. He didn't light it up last night but he provided a lot of useful rebounding in a game where rebounding was becoming a problem (per usual). I would leave Barnes there for now and see what it looks like with Sochan off the bench.

Hopefully Bassey gets another opportunity. Whoever mentioned in a comment that he needs to toughen up mentally nailed it. My man let a golden opportunity slip through his giant fingers last night.

[spurraider21]

Nice showing from Devin. His shotmaking and shot creation is just invaluable, especially whenever CP3 is no longer on the team.

Champ continues to impress.

When everybody is healthy and off minutes restriction, the SL needs to be: CP3/Devin/Champ/Sochan/Wemby
yeah the key with devin is for him to get quicker with his decision making. my annoyance with him had been as soon as he caught the ball, he'd stop, measure his guy up, dribble dribble dribble, and then get into his move. im fine with him calling his own number, but he was much quicker about getting into his move yesterday

[heyheymymy]

Pretty sure Wemby completed a 4 point play last night and not sure any of us reasonably expected this (at least so soon) when we drafted him. I think even back then we knew it was in his ceiling, yes, and the KD potential comps, granted, but to see it actually unfolding is madness.

7'3 Center nailing triples with the foul.

[CGD]

That would be a crime to demote Spurs bright future to the bench. On the contrary, he needs more touches as a starter, and inserting Vassell would take those touches away from him. Champ by default is a perfect compliment as not needing as many touches and would more likely deteriorate in the 2nd squad. It’s a good problem.

I don’t want him going to the bench either to be clear. Just don’t see Vassell coming off the bench once he’s fully healthy, so something will have to give.

[CGD]

If Wemby being an average 3pt shooter is legit (and I think it is) then I think him and Sochan can co-exist in the SL especially if they have CP3/Devin/Champagnie for spacing purposes

Agree with this. Feels like the SL lineup once everyone is healthy. Steph first in for CP3 so he can get reps with those guys.

[TDomination]

Wembys minutes suggest to me that Mitch Johnson is looking to win NOW.

And i love that!

[J_Paco]

even though Bassey faceplanted, im glad that Mitch gave him a shot. its not like Collins has played himself into some guaranteed primary reserve spot. he's been fine this year, but bassey had shown plenty of juice and he should continue to get opportunities other than garbage time. im also glad he pulled the plug and gave collins the second half minutes, even though he played poorly as well.

mitch has spoken about the team's depth in previous pressers. but its not really useful if you arent trying to make use of guys when somebody just isnt getting it done. i've felt similarly about the tre jones/blake wesley dynamic. yes Tre has the consistent track record, seniority, and is simply a more proven, competent player. but other than yesterday prior to getting hurt, he's been ineffective enough this season that i thought his leash should have been shorter. give wesley a few rotation minutes in the first half and see if he has that spark on that day, and if so, ride the hot hand.

i'd like to see more of that from mitch, hell even if it means there are games where branham finds minutes. i dont think we are some playoff team with a set 8 man rotatin or anything like that.

It's a good problem to have in comparison to the last few seasons where the roster felt shallow and 'incomplete.'

Champagnie and Castle might both slide back to the bench, but that will strengthen that group. Plus, with any of Champagnie, Barnes or Sochan on the bench that will mean a lot less of Keldon playing backup PF.

[Mugen]

Wembys minutes suggest to me that Mitch Johnson is looking to win NOW.

And i love that!

I hear what you're saying. But the 20yo kid played 36mins after 4 days of rest tbh :lol

[Mugen]

Maybe it's just the ridiculously high expectations I have for him, but the gap between Bad Wemby and Good Wemby is the biggest in the league tbh. :lol

I've never seen a player look like a poor man's Jeff Ayres in one stretch and a mix of Prime Hakeem/Steph Curry in another. It's actually insane.

[LeBowen]

While Castle's shooting has exceeded all expectations, I'm still not sure starting him and Jeremy together would be a good idea.
We're starting 4 reliable shooters and Castle who can make them, but is still random and has a lot of bad misses.
Benching Champ or Barnes for Jeremy would require major adjustments to current flow of the offense and it would be way easier for the opponents defend.

When everyone's healthy, I think CP3/Devin/Champ/Jeremy/Wemby would be the strongest lineup, despite Castle and Barnes playing really well.
Tbh, after all these awful years, it's a good problem to have. It seems that Mitch won't hesitate to change the starting lineup, bench someone or even DNP them if they're not up to the task.
Have these young guys fight it out and push each other.

[John B]

even though Bassey faceplanted, im glad that Mitch gave him a shot. its not like Collins has played himself into some guaranteed primary reserve spot. he's been fine this year, but bassey had shown plenty of juice and he should continue to get opportunities other than garbage time. im also glad he pulled the plug and gave collins the second half minutes, even though he played poorly as well.

mitch has spoken about the team's depth in previous pressers. but its not really useful if you arent trying to make use of guys when somebody just isnt getting it done. i've felt similarly about the tre jones/blake wesley dynamic. yes Tre has the consistent track record, seniority, and is simply a more proven, competent player. but other than yesterday prior to getting hurt, he's been ineffective enough this season that i thought his leash should have been shorter. give wesley a few rotation minutes in the first half and see if he has that spark on that day, and if so, ride the hot hand.

i'd like to see more of that from mitch, hell even if it means there are games where branham finds minutes. i dont think we are some playoff team with a set 8 man rotatin or anything like that.

I’m sure Mitch is really having problem (in a good way) if and when to insert the starters back. Collins/Bassey is really where they are thin. I can live with Brahnam maybe developing into a Gary Neal-type specialist, and Wesley as another POA defender. Will definitely like to extend Barnes and retire as a Spur. And I hope CP3 can stay depending where Spurs record is by the deadline. IF the Spurs are somewhere in the 6th seed, I think they’ll beef-up the backup bigs with a trade and see where that takes them.

[Davidicus]

While Castle's shooting has exceeded all expectations, I'm still not sure starting him and Jeremy together would be a good idea.
We're starting 4 reliable shooters and Castle who can make them, but is still random and has a lot of bad misses.
Benching Champ or Barnes for Jeremy would require major adjustments to current flow of the offense and it would be way easier for the opponents defend.

When everyone's healthy, I think CP3/Devin/Champ/Jeremy/Wemby would be the strongest lineup, despite Castle and Barnes playing really well.
Tbh, after all these awful years, it's a good problem to have. It seems that Mitch won't hesitate to change the starting lineup, bench someone or even DNP them if they're not up to the task.
Have these young guys fight it out and push each other.

This. Castle and Sochan on the floor together is a recipe for disaster. Castle takes Champs spot when he gets a consistent 3 (or takes CP3 spot next year if CP3 is ring chasing).

Tre Castle Barnes Keldon Collins/Bassey is a solid 2nd unit. Stagger Castle Tre so we don’t have the same issue.

[heyheymymy]

Bassey's big game against OKC (12 & 8) Thunder were missing Hart and Chet and I don't think they played a player taller than 6'6. The Thunder started J Dub and Dort as bigs basically.
Bassey's big game against Jazz (11 & 9 with 6 blks) Kessler was out for the game and yeah Mark and Flip played but Flip got injured and left the game after 18mins. God bless Ewwbanks but he didn't seem to affect things too dominantly.
Small sample for my argument but his two recent big games have had a similar trend that I noticed and got me thinking. Does Bassey need to prove it against legitimate size/talent bigs? Sabonis was working him at the rim. Contributing to 4 quick fouls in 6 mins making for a short night during the Kings game.

Spurs could use one of Zollins/Bassey emerging to solve the Wemby backup question mark.

[John B]

While the goal is to Win, I doubt it’s at the expense of benching your future. Castle was trending up except for last night. You keep him learning beside the maestro.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

There can only be one non shooter in the starting lineup before the spacing starts fucking up.

If you put sochan back you're losing Castle
https://i.imgur.com/EUumCSL.png

[LeBowen]

While the goal is to Win, I doubt it’s at the expense of benching your future. Castle was trending up except for last night. You keep him learning beside the maestro.

Since Tre got injured again and it looked ugly, Castle will have to lead te bench unit, anyway.

[wildbill2u]

Bassey kept setting picks and on his roll to the basket the guard never passed it to him. he was very oopen sometimes.

[spurraider21]

Bassey kept setting picks and on his roll to the basket the guard never passed it to him. he was very oopen sometimes. Chinook

[Chinook]

Chinook

They're obviously jealous of Bassey. No other rational explanation.

[wildbill2u]

[QUOTE=Chinook;11160856]They're obviously jealous of Bassey. No other rational explanation.[/QUOTE

i think he may be starting his roll too early and that leaves the guard with a double team defense that may prevent a good pass opp

[Arcadian]

You know that one shot by Victor that had Sean Elliott saying "I don't even know what to call that"?

I call it the "finger hook" - a cross between a finger roll and a hook shot. A finger hook.

[benefactor]

Vassell needs to stay the sixth man. His microwave effect off the bench has given this team a much-needed shot in the arm. I also think we lose too much on defense when we put Castle on the bench and put Vassell in the starting lineup. Castle still has some growing and learning to do but I feel like in the long run he's going to be much more effective if he continues to start.

[Chinook]

The starters are bad on offense, which is part of the reason why they keep getting down in games. The first unit needs to be able to accommodate a second high-usage threat. Maybe that's not essential this year, but what they have isn't sustainable. It's why trying to trade for someone like DFS makes no sense. They need scoring.

[DAF86]

The starters are bad on offense, which is part of the reason why they keep getting down in games. The first unit needs to be able to accommodate a second high-usage threat. Maybe that's not essential this year, but what they have isn't sustainable. It's why trying to trade for someone like DFS makes no sense. They need scoring.

Last time I checked, the current SL for the Spurs was the lineup with the best net rating in the entire NBA, so I really doubt they are the reason they keep getting down in games, tbh.

Without doing any checking of any metric whatsoever, I'm almost certain the reason the Spurs have been getting into these big holes early are the awful lineup combinations containing Tre, Wesley, Keldon and Collins (sometimes all of them at the same time) that Mitch has been running in the first quarter when he starts with the rotation. Now that Vassell and Sochan are healthy, there should be less of a dropoff when the bench comes in, imho.

[LittleCriminal]

WEMVP!!!!

[gilmor2002]

One thing I was expecting with the arrival of CP3 is a reduced number of assists per game for Victor but as it turns out, his numbers are almost the same than last year and he is now 6 apg the last 5 games.

Difference is that we are winning more this year.

[Dex]

Bassey really missed an opportunity last night. Only thing that helped him was that Collins continued to looks really rough too.

Sabonis always gives us fits, too.

I'd like to see him get a few tries before giving up on the idea

[rankingtear]

The starters are bad on offense, which is part of the reason why they keep getting down in games. The first unit needs to be able to accommodate a second high-usage threat. Maybe that's not essential this year, but what they have isn't sustainable. It's why trying to trade for someone like DFS makes no sense. They need scoring.

It is the opposite, the defense is leaking the last few games in the SL. The hot shooting in the second half is what negating the bad defense.

[scott]

The starters are bad on offense, which is part of the reason why they keep getting down in games. The first unit needs to be able to accommodate a second high-usage threat. Maybe that's not essential this year, but what they have isn't sustainable. It's why trying to trade for someone like DFS makes no sense. They need scoring.

The current starting 5 has a ORTG of 130.7, third in the NBA for all 5-man lineups with a minimum of 75 minutes played (increasing the minimum to anything above 83 would improve them to second).

The bench needs more scoring, which is best achieved by having Devin come on as a sub, absorbing much of Keldon's usage. DFS for Keldon would be to improve upon KJ's defensive shortcomings. Throw Sochan into that mix and replace Collins with Jonas and all of a sudden you have a competent bench unit.

[CGD]

I want Castle to keep starting as much as anyone, but I don’t see Vassell stating off the bench once fully healthy. They’re just not gonna do it.

Really question is Steph v Champ v Barnes at the 3 in the SL, so long as we have CP3.

[lefty]

One thing I was expecting with the arrival of CP3 is a reduced number of assists per game for Victor but as it turns out, his numbers are almost the same than last year and he is now 6 apg the last 5 games.

Because his teammates are hitting their shots this year and we added Castle

[benefactor]

I want Castle to keep starting as much as anyone, but I don’t see Vassell stating off the bench once fully healthy. They’re just not gonna do it.

Really question is Steph v Champ v Barnes at the 3 in the SL, so long as we have CP3.
Is he ever going to be fully healthy?:lol

I really feel like trying to shoehorn Vassell or Sochan back into the starting lineup it's just going backwards. If anything the Spurs need to be looking to acquire the player that is going to replace Barnes eventually. Everyone else needs to stay where they are.

[Chinook]

Last time I checked, the current SL for the Spurs was the lineup with the best net rating in the entire NBA, so I really doubt they are the reason they keep getting down in games, tbh.

Without doing any checking of any metric whatsoever, I'm almost certain the reason the Spurs have been getting into these big holes early are the awful lineup combinations containing Tre, Wesley, Keldon and Collins (sometimes all of them at the same time) that Mitch has been running in the first quarter when he starts with the rotation. Now that Vassell and Sochan are healthy, there should be less of a dropoff when the bench comes in, imho.

They're depending on two old guys, a role-player and a rookie to carry the secondary offensive load. When those guys are having good shooting nights, it covers up their limitations. But without a secondary scoring option, they're going to struggle. I'm as happy as anyone that they're winning, but people seem to think doubling down on this recent success is the way to go, and it's just not. At least it isn't long term. As I said, if the goal is just to ride to the play-in, they don't have to do anything. But any type of system they operate that doesn't involve them having a second scorer in their first unit is just temporary.


It is the opposite, the defense is leaking the last few games in the SL. The hot shooting in the second half is what negating the bad defense.

Offense and defense play into each other. If you're turning the ball over or taking bad shots, it's going to result in better offense for the other team. I agree about what you said when it comes to their comebacks, but a lot of that hot shooting is bolstering the starting offense, with Barnes' elite shooting and Castle's above-expectations shooting being highlights. Yes, they've gotten some good games out of Keldon and now Vassell to help, but those guys can be expected to have a good scoring game between them a night. That's why the bench offense is going to be pretty stable if Vassell stays there. I imagine he'll come to the first unit sooner than later.


The current starting 5 has a ORTG of 130.7, third in the NBA for all 5-man lineups with a minimum of 75 minutes played (increasing the minimum to anything above 83 would improve them to second).

But 75 minutes isn't a lot. That's like four minutes a game. That's not nearly enough to where we can throw away the initial assumptions about this unit's offense, nor do I think the unit immediately falling apart offensively once one or more guys start getting subbed in is a reasonable counter-argument. I know you want the team to move for at least one more star, so I know you don't actually disagree with me. But my point is that the offense for the starters is fragile and unstable so long as they don't have a second scorer. I'm glad they're making the most of their time without one by shooting above where one would expect. But it wouldn't surprise me to see more games like Dallas or LAL where the bottom starts to fall out for the first-unit offense because they have no real offensive talent outside a Wemby still finding his way in a league game-planning against him.
The bench needs more scoring, which is best achieved by having Devin come on as a sub, absorbing much of Keldon's usage. DFS for Keldon would be to improve upon KJ's defensive shortcomings. Throw Sochan into that mix and replace Collins with Jonas and all of a sudden you have a competent bench unit.

[scott]

But 75 minutes isn't a lot. That's like four minutes a game. That's not nearly enough to where we can throw away the initial assumptions about this unit's offense, nor do I think the unit immediately falling apart offensively once one or more guys start getting subbed in is a reasonable counter-argument. I know you want the team to move for at least one more star, so I know you don't actually disagree with me. But my point is that the offense for the starters is fragile and unstable so long as they don't have a second scorer. I'm glad they're making the most of their time without one by shooting above where one would expect. But it wouldn't surprise me to see more games like Dallas or LAL where the bottom starts to fall out for the first-unit offense because they have no real offensive talent outside a Wemby still finding his way in a league game-planning against him.


That unit hasn't played 75 minutes, that's just the threshold I used to rank them. Our current SL has played 130 minutes over 12 games together (almost 11 mpg), which is on the low end but not too far off of what most top lineups have played together. Here are the top 10 5-man lineups (again with a threshold of 75 minutes played), their games played, their total minutes played, and their mpg together (I didn't list what the lineups were, just the statistics, with the point being that the sample size for our SL isn't a huge aberration compared to the other top 5-man lineups:




GP
MP
MPG


1
12
130
10.8


2
9
83
9.2


3
9
163
18.1


4
10
131
13.1


5
6
120
20.0


6
7
144
20.6


7
9
106
11.8


8
10
93
9.3


9
20
285
14.3


10
12
178
14.8



There are some with more MPG, some with less - but that is more a function of just the Spurs rotation philosophy. Last year the most frequently used lineup for the Spurs (Vassell-Jones-Champ-Sochan-Wembanyama) only played 10.9 mpg together (404 minutes over 37 games) and the second most used lineup (Johnson-Vassell-Jones-Sochan-Wemby, which was our closing lineups and was one of the best 5-man lineups in the league) only played 3.6 mpg (142 min over 39 games). The Spurs just rotate more than other teams.

The current SL may eventually start to fade from an offensive efficiency perspective, but I'd like see that happen in a more pronounced, measurable way before I go making major changes. My argument remains consistent at this point: Vassell and Sochan provide more incremental improvement to our bench unit right now than the the sum of [how much they'd improve the starting unit] + [how much Champ and Barnes would improve the bench unit].

I do want us to move for one more star, but it's not going to happen this season. For now I'd like to see how far we can go with some minor tweaks (which is why I've suggested Jonas and DFS, though Jonas would be by far the bigger priority for me), as that might help inform what the best fit is for that additional star (though I have pre-existing notions... #LauriThread2025). I think covering up some of our holes on this squad will help give us a lot of information on what Devin, Sochan and Castle are/will be and who the ideal target for that next star is. For example, depending on how the season goes, I could see someone like Fox or Booker being a better target than someone like Lauri (caveat: all of these targets are unlikely to be acquired... but I think there is value in understanding which archetype would be the best fit).

[DAF86]

But 75 minutes isn't a lot. That's like four minutes a game. That's not nearly enough to where we can throw away the initial assumptions about this unit's offense

Dude, you don't get to play the small sample size card when you started the entire argument with a complete an utter lie, tbh. :lol


The starters are bad on offense, which is part of the reason why they keep getting down in games.

Also, the Spurs SL has played way more than just 75 minutes together. That's only the minimum cut for lineups to qualify. Actually if the cut was bigger in minutes, the Spurs SL would be even higher in off efficiency.

[rankingtear]

They're depending on two old guys, a role-player and a rookie to carry the secondary offensive load. When those guys are having good shooting nights, it covers up their limitations. But without a secondary scoring option, they're going to struggle. I'm as happy as anyone that they're winning, but people seem to think doubling down on this recent success is the way to go, and it's just not. At least it isn't long term. As I said, if the goal is just to ride to the play-in, they don't have to do anything. But any type of system they operate that doesn't involve them having a second scorer in their first unit is just temporary.



Offense and defense play into each other. If you're turning the ball over or taking bad shots, it's going to result in better offense for the other team. I agree about what you said when it comes to their comebacks, but a lot of that hot shooting is bolstering the starting offense, with Barnes' elite shooting and Castle's above-expectations shooting being highlights. Yes, they've gotten some good games out of Keldon and now Vassell to help, but those guys can be expected to have a good scoring game between them a night. That's why the bench offense is going to be pretty stable if Vassell stays there. I imagine he'll come to the first unit sooner than later.



But 75 minutes isn't a lot. That's like four minutes a game. That's not nearly enough to where we can throw away the initial assumptions about this unit's offense, nor do I think the unit immediately falling apart offensively once one or more guys start getting subbed in is a reasonable counter-argument. I know you want the team to move for at least one more star, so I know you don't actually disagree with me. But my point is that the offense for the starters is fragile and unstable so long as they don't have a second scorer. I'm glad they're making the most of their time without one by shooting above where one would expect. But it wouldn't surprise me to see more games like Dallas or LAL where the bottom starts to fall out for the first-unit offense because they have no real offensive talent outside a Wemby still finding his way in a league game-planning against him.
The bench needs more scoring, which is best achieved by having Devin come on as a sub, absorbing much of Keldon's usage. DFS for Keldon would be to improve upon KJ's defensive shortcomings. Throw Sochan into that mix and replace Collins with Jonas and all of a sudden you have a competent bench unit.

The SL is giving up the worst OReb% recently + bottom tier to% for the opponent. The other team is exploiting the lack of size and physicality without Sochan in the SL. That is why Sochan needs to be a starter.

[KobesAchilles]

But according to KobesAchilles, he doesn't know how to actually play basketball the right way.

Last night's game has shown us we really need a reliable backup big.
Bassey can be nice in some situations, but we can't rely on him or Collins if we're to stay above .500.

I honestly think that upgrading to a solid backup big and having everyone healthy would be enough to make the play-in with ease.
So let me get this straight. I say that in order for Vassell to be a good fit for the Spurs going forward, I want Vassell to take 12 shots a game. 8 of those shots should be threes. I want him engaged on defense and to make winning plays. Vassell does literally everything I say I want from him and you're bragging to me about him playing amazing when all he did was finally play how I said he should be playing all along? And I'm the supposed stupid one?

LeBowen: Look KA Vassell took 12 shots like you said he should. :lol
8 of his 12 attempts were threes just like you said he should :lol
Did you see him engaged on defense and making winning plays :lol
Look at the great game Vassell had by doing everything KA said he should do to begin with! :lol

I can't make this shit up. I should be charging money for my expertise :rolleyes

[LeBowen]

So let me get this straight. I say that in order for Vassell to be a good fit for the Spurs going forward, I want Vassell to take 12 shots a game. 8 of those shots should be threes. I want him engaged on defense and to make winning plays. Vassell does literally everything I say I want from him and you're bragging to me about him playing amazing when all he did was finally play how I said he should be playing all along? And I'm the supposed stupid one?

LeBowen: Look KA Vassell took 12 shots like you said he should. :lol
8 of his 12 attempts were threes just like you said he should :lol
Did you see him engaged on defense and making winning plays :lol
Look at the great game Vassell had by doing everything KA said he should do to begin with! :lol

I can't make this shit up. I should be charging money for my expertise :rolleyes

A really good strawman attempt a week later, but it's not going to work.
Iirc, your entire argument back then was that Vassell isn't a winning player and with those things you listed, you'd most rather turn him into Champagnie because he's not intelligent enough to play a role that requires actual thinking and decision making.
If he's to live up to that $30M a year contract, he needs to take more than 12 shots and he definitely needs more shots at the rim because as I've said many times, Castle is our best paint penetrator, which is bad for the team. Keldon is random and others just don't do it enough.

[KobesAchilles]

A really good strawman attempt a week later, but it's not going to work.
Iirc, your entire argument back then was that Vassell isn't a winning player and with those things you listed, you'd most rather turn him into Champagnie because he's not intelligent enough to play a role that requires actual thinking and decision making.
If he's to live up to that $30M a year contract, he needs to take more than 12 shots and he definitely needs more shots at the rim because as I've said many times, Castle is our best paint penetrator, which is bad for the team. Keldon is random and others just don't do it enough.

He's not going to live up to that 30 million dollar a year contract. So that's out the door. The only way he could is if he makes an all-star team and I would love for you to tell me that he is an all-star player.

Yes my argument was that he isn't a winning player. And the way he was playing before the Kings game wasn't how a winning player plays. I stand by that. Then I laid very specific conditions for him to learn how to become a winning player. Then he does those things literally verbatim and you come bragging about how great he is playing. There's no strawman. Vassell literally played how I wanted him to play all along. That's not a strawman.

[LeBowen]

He's not going to live up to that 30 million dollar a year contract. So that's out the door. The only way he could is if he makes an all-star team and I would love for you to tell me that he is an all-star player.

He won't be an all-star player, but the cap will steadily rise and $30M will be the new $20M in a few years. It's supposed to go to $154M next summer and then to 170, 187, 205 over the duration of Devin's contract.
If he becomes a steady 22/4/4 scorer on good efficency and a solid defender, his contract will be fair value...if he can stay healthy. And will be easily tradeable for an actual star if needed.


Yes my argument was that he isn't a winning player. And the way he was playing before the Kings game wasn't how a winning player plays. I stand by that. Then I laid very specific conditions for him to learn how to become a winning player. Then he does those things literally verbatim and you come bragging about how great he is playing. There's no strawman. Vassell literally played how I wanted him to play all along. That's not a strawman.

https://i.imgur.com/4x0nmBl.png
This is the shot chart from that game.
He took so many threes because he got hot.
Just one attempt (miss) in the restricted area and 0 FTs isn't how he should play.
He played like that because he just came back from injury, but we need him to get to the rim, draw fouls and collapse the defense more.

We wrote about it over the past week, the biggest issue with our offense isn't that we go cold from 3pt line, that happens to every team, but that we have just a couple of players who can consistently attack the paint and because of it our offense is really easy to stop if 3pts aren't falling.

[KobesAchilles]

He won't be an all-star player, but the cap will steadily rise and $30M will be the new $20M in a few years. It's supposed to go to $154M next summer and then to 170, 187, 205 over the duration of Devin's contract.
If he becomes a steady 22/4/4 scorer on good efficency and a solid defender, his contract will be fair value...if he can stay healthy. And will be easily tradeable for an actual star if needed.



https://i.imgur.com/4x0nmBl.png
This is the shot chart from that game.
He took so many threes because he got hot.
Just one attempt (miss) in the restricted area and 0 FTs isn't how he should play.
He played like that because he just came back from injury, but we need him to get to the rim, draw fouls and collapse the defense more.

We wrote about it over the past week, the biggest issue with our offense isn't that we go cold from 3pt line, that happens to every team, but that we have just a couple of players who can consistently attack the paint and because of it our offense is really easy to stop if 3pts aren't falling.
I agree with the sentiment. We don't have that player who can collapse the defense. It's why I was somewhat Bullish on CP3 starting. He just can't get to the rim anymore on his old legs. I remember there was a crazy stat last year that CP3 had 4 makes at the rim last year with Golden St when you take away fast break points. But it showed how he just doesn't have it in him anymore.

Ideally he will pass it off the Castle and Castle will pick his brain on everything and learn some tricks on how to get to the lane the same way Shay did in OKC. I honestly don't believe Vassell is a good enough dribbler to constantly get in the lane, collapse a defense, and get a high percentage of free throws. If he could be that player then that would be amazing. But I'm not banking on him to become that any time soon. For this year, I want Vassell to focus on being in more of a role player mindset. In the offseason if he expands his game then that's fine. But I just want him playing comfortable and getting a rhythm instead of pressing everything

[ambchang]

He's not going to live up to that 30 million dollar a year contract. So that's out the door. The only way he could is if he makes an all-star team and I would love for you to tell me that he is an all-star player.

Yes my argument was that he isn't a winning player. And the way he was playing before the Kings game wasn't how a winning player plays. I stand by that. Then I laid very specific conditions for him to learn how to become a winning player. Then he does those things literally verbatim and you come bragging about how great he is playing. There's no strawman. Vassell literally played how I wanted him to play all along. That's not a strawman.

There are exactly 50 players making $30M or more this year. There aren't 50 all stars. I would say that he is comfortably along players like Jerami Grant, Deandre Ayton, CJ McCollum, Julius Randle, Immanuel Quickley, Khris Middleton, Dejounte Murray, Jordan Poole, Tyler Herro, Desmond Bane, Nic Claxton, Miles Bridges, Anfernee Simons, RJ Barratt, Tobias Harris, Terry Rozier, De'Aaron Fox, Ben Simmons, Fred VanVleet, Zach Lavine, Bradket Beal :lol and such.