How We Failed Vassell (and How We Can Fix It)

[Dejounte]

Whether you’re a fan of his or not, we need this anti jinx thread to fucking work like the Wemby one. It’s good for the Spurs in the long run— ups his trade value or he becomes a key piece.

[scott]

Great thread title, OP.

[Dejounte]

Great thread title, OP.

You and I (or me and myself) are never going to let those alt conspiracies die. ;)

[Ni-G]

IMHO coaching staff let him down by allowing him to focus mostly on offence ignoring defensive game. He hasn't became reliable no2 offensively (yet) and his defensive metrics are nose diving last 2 seasons. Let's hope that with health improving he will find consistency and energy to play well on both sides most of the time.

[Dejounte]

Honestly, maybe everyone needs to give up the idea that he needs to become a two way star to justify his worth. If he becomes a good player on offense, I don’t think I’ll care about his defense. Just surround him (and Wemby) with defensive players at that point… we already are in a way doing that. I think the bar is so low around the league on stars playing defense anyway. I don’t think Devin Booker is much of a defender and I don’t think Devin is much worse than him on that end even if the stats say otherwise.

[z0sa]

In the spirit of the thread, the Spurs have failed him health-wise. They need to either restrict his minutes relatively speaking permanently or find some way to keep him healthy. If they can do that, I have no doubt he'll find his offensive rhythm again. Defensively, well, what Scott has said recently has really resonated with me and been an eye opener but I'm still in his camp - IF he can stay healthy.

[exstatic]

IMHO coaching staff let him down by allowing him to focus mostly on offence ignoring defensive game. He hasn't became reliable no2 offensively (yet) and his defensive metrics are nose diving last 2 seasons. Let's hope that with health improving he will find consistency and energy to play well on both sides most of the time.

The whole team, including the coaching staff, ignored defense for two years. How do you just snap out of that?

[vy65]

We let his MCS (main character syndrome) metastasize instead of chemo’ing the fuck out of it early on

[Maddog]

Trade him for Champagnie

[scott]

Maybe if we get this thread to two pages it will work. So far, no dice.

[vy65]

Think the only thing holding this dude back is not getting up enough shots. I think Wemby needs to get over himself and let DV24 start pounding that rock

[KobesAchilles]

There is no fix. Dude has no idea how to play winning basketball. He’s a role player ideally who thinks he’s a MC. On every contender he would be the 3rd or 4th option at best and yet Spurstalk mistakenly believed he could be a 2 option. He isn’t smart enough bb iq wise to be that. And that’s more of the American youth basketball failing than the Spurs.

Dude was “taught” basketball by AAU which has become corrupt and focuses mainly on money rather than teaching kids the correct way to play. KG has spoken on this aspect in one of his podcasts with the Pierce. Then he goes to college and plays all of one year and doesn’t learn how to play winning basketball. Then we draft him at 19 for his upside but he is clearly lost on defense bc nobody has ever taught him advanced defensive sets. He’s never thinking two or three steps ahead on offense and focuses on himself most of the time. Some people just aren’t basketball savvy.

Ofc I would’ve done what they did in the old days. Sign a championship vet and assign him to Vassell. Show him the ins and outs of the games. Show him how to work on his body and diet. Put actual pressure on Vassell to learn how to play basketball correctly. But instead we were happy being the young stupid team for the past 5 years.

[tbdog]

Vassell off ball instincts were vastly better in the first two seasons than now. His D on bigger players were bad and I just assumed as he got thicker, he'll do fine. For some reason his D just went way downhill, while his shot is so pure. I don't expect him to miss. This season, he had that hot streak off the bench but struggled since joining the starting lineup.

He is an obvious keeper.

[baseline bum]

Honestly, maybe everyone needs to give up the idea that he needs to become a two way star to justify his worth. If he becomes a good player on offense, I don’t think I’ll care about his defense. Just surround him (and Wemby) with defensive players at that point… we already are in a way doing that. I think the bar is so low around the league on stars playing defense anyway. I don’t think Devin Booker is much of a defender and I don’t think Devin is much worse than him on that end even if the stats say otherwise.

He doesn't have to be a two way star, no one is asking him to be Ant. He just has to not be dogshit level defensively. If he was an average defender he'd be enormously valuable and no one would be wanting to trade him for Fox.

[Dejounte]

He doesn't have to be a two way star, no one is asking him to be Ant. He just has to not be dogshit level defensively. If he was an average defender he'd be enormously valuable and no one would be wanting to trade him for Fox.
And I’m saying I would gladly accept him being a dogshit defender if he was our legit #2 scorer.

[scott]

Let me come out and state my opinion very directly: this guy is a loser. The sooner we dump him, the better. I’d rather have Keldon and Collins in their roles than Devin in his.

[Dejounte]

And again, I’m a stat geek as much as anybody else and I don’t accept the stats saying he’s a dogshit defender. When you’ve been through years of Forbes, you know what i’m talking about. Vassell is nowhere near Forbes (or Patty Mills) level on defense.

[scott]

And again, I’m a stat geek as much as anybody else and I don’t accept the stats saying he’s a dogshit defender. When you’ve been through years of Forbes, you know what i’m talking about. Vassell is nowhere near Forbes (or Patty Mills) level on defense.

No need to bait me like this… you can just ask me to build a chart, lol. Will have it in about an hour, boss.

[Obstructed_View]

If only he were clutch.
Or consistent.
Or durable.
Or gave effort on defense.
Or made hustle plays.

[Obstructed_View]

Vassell is nowhere near Forbes (or Patty Mills) level on defense.

Gee, what a glowing endorsement. Where's his supermax?

[onechance87]

And again, I’m a stat geek as much as anybody else and I don’t accept the stats saying he’s a dogshit defender. When you’ve been through years of Forbes, you know what i’m talking about. Vassell is nowhere near Forbes (or Patty Mills) level on defense.

for his contract yes he has.

[Dejounte]

No need to bait me like this… you can just ask me to build a chart, lol. Will have it in about an hour, boss.

I know the stats will say they’re comparable. I’m merely going by my eyes and watching Vassell on defense doesn’t make me want to pull my hair out and burn the house down. It’s not even as bad as Branham.

[100%duncan]

Parker was never good defensively and yet we didnt really care because he could score buckets and become Tim’s #2. Manu regressed defensively and we didnt care because he could be #2 at any given night. These 2 dudes could give you at least 20 even on a bad night. Vassell’s bad night can be 6 points. That is totally unacceptable.

[scott]

Damn, I wasn't even expecting this

https://i.ibb.co/NySMJr0/bad-d-darko.png

[onechance87]

send his ass back to the bench....Seems to play better from there anyways.

[vy65]

Jesus Christ, and this guy is getting paid more, overall, than Zollins or Keldon?

[TimmyBuckets]

He's probably still a little wobbly defensively cuz of his knee. Just needs some more time. He'll step up when it counts. He's got the tools just needs maybe another 5-10 games to ruminate.

[scott]

Looks like's he's been pretty consistent (consistently ass) for the last 150 or so games of his career. IDK why people wanna keep blaming his knee :lol

https://i.ibb.co/0DWB9Vm/devin-d-darko.png

[SpursBills]

Maybe when it's all said and done, Vassell is going to be this generation's successor to DeMar DeRozan who was the prior generation's successor to Jerry Stackhouse.

Stack played in an age where shooting percentages didn't matter and raw point totals were all people cared about. His numbers looked great, but had limited impact on winning.

Then DeRozan came along when people started paying attention to shooting percentages, but didn't fully appreciate the concept of shot diet and the importance of shooting 3s over midrange, so even though his numbers looked good, he still had a limited impact on winning.

Now Vassell comes along gets to the rim and shoots 3s at a good clip, but advanced catch-all metrics like EPM and DARKO haven't made it to the mainstream yet, so even though his percentages and 3 point volume look great, he's had a limited impact on winning.

Still hoping he turns it around this season and buys into more of a two-way role even if it's as more of a role player

[spursparker9]

I say Champaigne deserved the starting spot over Vassell.

[Das Texan]

And again, I’m a stat geek as much as anybody else and I don’t accept the stats saying he’s a dogshit defender. When you’ve been through years of Forbes, you know what i’m talking about. Vassell is nowhere near Forbes (or Patty Mills) level on defense.

doenst get paid forbes (or patty mills) level money either. For his salary he is dogshit.

[Das Texan]

Damn, I wasn't even expecting this

https://i.ibb.co/NySMJr0/bad-d-darko.png

damn Patty was better than we all seem to assume?

[Jordan Jackson]

Looks like's he's been pretty consistent (consistently ass) for the last 150 or so games of his career. IDK why people wanna keep blaming his knee :lol

https://i.ibb.co/0DWB9Vm/devin-d-darko.png

The only thing they haven’t blamed yet is the boogie.

Anyway - it looks like player politics are driving the Spurs rotations. Probably doesn’t end well.

[Obstructed_View]

I say Champaigne deserved the starting spot over Vassell.
Possibly, but at least Julian is finding a way to thrive in his role.

[Obstructed_View]

The only thing they haven’t blamed yet is the boogie.

Anyway - it looks like player politics are driving the Spurs rotations. Probably doesn’t end well.
You gotta start with the sunshine.

[RC_Drunkford]

the problem with Vassell on defense is that he

1: gets lost on screens to easily
2: when he closes out and his man drives he somehow always has his body in a sideways position which allows his defender to just bump him and score/draw a foul
3: has played on a team with terrible defensive schemes for years

So yeah his defense is not that good, but it's not like he's a black hole. He still gets deflections here and there and contests shots. Given his physical profile he should be better though.

Offensively I've always said he's an offball player. Once this team gets a PG who can get into the paint consistently Devin should just get catch and shoot jumpers. We saw some glimpses of that in the Nets game. He also seems to be in a shooting slump right now.

What I'm missing is last year's Vassell who was around 1.2 PPP in pick & rolls and hit tough shots at top NBA shooting percentages. I hope that still comes along during the season.

[RC_Drunkford]

Looks like's he's been pretty consistent (consistently ass) for the last 150 or so games of his career. IDK why people wanna keep blaming his knee :lol

https://i.ibb.co/0DWB9Vm/devin-d-darko.png

you know what's funny about that? Vassell has played a total of 255 NBA games, yet your graphic has a graph for 350 :lol

The area above 0 is basically 150 games which are his first 3 seasons, as he missed the majority at the end of the tank for Wemby season. So the lines below 0 are only from last season (which was a tanking season with us still running drop coverage, playing Zach Collins and nobody being in the gaps) and 16 games of this season. You should reevaluate that one :lol 100 games in this graphic say Vassell is a bad defender because he was OUT

[exstatic]

doenst get paid forbes (or patty mills) level money either. For his salary he is dogshit.

People here HOWLED over Patty’s 4/$48M deal, and that money was 7 years and one CBA ago.

[Dejounte]

doenst get paid forbes (or patty mills) level money either. For his salary he is dogshit.

Read my other posts because my point is flying over your head. Smh one more time: if he elevates his offense to be the #2 guy, TO ME his salary is worth it even if his defense is dogshit.

[KingKev]

We, collectively as a board tend to get almost everything wrong so the fact that the entire board is done with him should serve as a pretty good contrarian indicator.

Vassell about to go offfff

[Das Texan]

Read my other posts because my point is flying over your head. Smh one more time: if he elevates his offense to be the #2 guy, TO ME his salary is worth it even if his defense is dogshit.

For his salary level he shouldnt be a giant question mark of if if if. For what he is paid he shouldnt be a 11 ppg for 5 games and then a 18 ppg for 5 games swings.

He should be #3 guy easily and honestly on many nights he is far from that.

And honestly dogshit would be an improvement over his current level of defense.

His BBIQ is fucking awful and I dont see that changing anytime soon. Cut bait quickly while you can and bring in a higher IQ guy.

[LeBowen]

I'll say it again, the biggest issue is that he's the most common archetype, easiest type of player to find in the league.
Shooting guards who don't do anything other than score aren't that valuable today, even if they're efficent, consistent 20ppg scorers.
Unless you're a 25+ a night player, you better either defend or create on high level, days of pure scorers are long gone if we're talking average starters.

No contender in the league starts a pure shooting guard right now.
Mitchell is a ballhandler, averages almost 5 assists and is one of those 25+ whenever it's needed scorers.

If we assume Castle/Wemby is the core, we need two 3-D players for the starting lineup and a legit triple threat who can score with ease and create for others.
Champ is the placeholder 3-D guy. Who knows, at this rate he might take another leap and become a legit starter.
CP3 is the temporary creator solution.
Obviously Jeremy is starting ahead of Castle, but it's going to be really hard to incorporate both in the starting lineup if they don't develop reliable jumpshots and Castle obviously has a higher ceiling.

Devin is just redundant. It's his 5th season, even if he becomes the best realistic version of himself, he's still a common player.

[Dejounte]

For his salary level he shouldnt be a giant question mark of if if if. For what he is paid he shouldnt be a 11 ppg for 5 games and then a 18 ppg for 5 games swings.

He should be #3 guy easily and honestly on many nights he is far from that.

And honestly dogshit would be an improvement over his current level of defense.

His BBIQ is fucking awful and I dont see that changing anytime soon. Cut bait quickly while you can and bring in a higher IQ guy.

I haven’t defended his current level of play. This begs the question, how many guys in the league are actually performing to their salary level? I bet you there are fans on other forums complaining about their underperforming players? Isn’t Vassell really on the first year of his extension?

[Obstructed_View]

Read my other posts because my point is flying over your head. Smh one more time: if he elevates his offense to be the #2 guy, TO ME his salary is worth it even if his defense is dogshit.
If he made up for his offensive inconsistencies with hustle and effort in other areas he might do it too. Wake me if either happens.

[Das Texan]

I haven’t defended his current level of play. This begs the question, how many guys in the league are actually performing to their salary level? I bet you there are fans on other forums complaining about their underperforming players? Isn’t Vassell really on the first year of his extension?

it is year 1.

the real issue is that he has shown no signs of growth you'd expect from a young player. His BBIQ is the biggest issue and a fatal issue I feel. Even if he returned to his scoring ways, his fit on this roster is terrible due to said terrible BBIQ. If the 'goal' is a return to the Beautiful Way, it wont happen with Vassel on the roster ever.

[Dejounte]

Resident BI guy, scott

Is there a metric somewhere that shows your performance stat over contract years (and salary size overlay?)

[KingKev]

What worries me is that we likely have multiple FRPs in the 10-20 range over the next say 3 years and Vassell is a prime example of the level of talent and development curve we can expect.

[CGD]

Looks like's he's been pretty consistent (consistently ass) for the last 150 or so games of his career. IDK why people wanna keep blaming his knee :lol

https://i.ibb.co/0DWB9Vm/devin-d-darko.png

It kinda matches the eye test too. I’ve notice in the past games that the other team is going to the matchup he’s on. Not an accident Bridges exploded on us with Vassell guarding him, for example, but the Nets were doing it too. Something to watch now that he’s with the SL and facing better talent.

[CGD]

What worries me is that we likely have multiple FRPs in the 10-20 range over the next say 3 years and Vassell is a prime example of what of the level of talent and development curve we can expect.

If all goes well… Many of those will bust.

[KingKev]

If all goes well… Many of those will bust.

It is a genuine concern. We don’t seem to draft as well in the mid lottery and end up drafting guys 10 spots to early.

I fear the first part of Wemby’s career will resemble Robinson’s.

[Russo21]

Wasn't long ago a lot here were criticising me for even to dare criticise DV. The guy with the biggest contract on the team is a huge disappointment. Mr Quadruple Zero as I like to call him. Never seen a highly paid so called centrepiece pull off 0 rebound 0 assists 0 steals and 0 block statlines so often.

He's a dumb basketball player, only cares about scoring which he's average at that also, makes nobody around him better and provides zero value to the team. It's no coincidence the worst stretch ever in Spurs history comes where he's the highest paid centrepiece of the team.

Hopefully there's a dumb as shit GM out there who will see his 17 point or whatever he gets, overvalues him and offers something for him. And yes the Spurs and Pop failed him. He came into the league with Defensive upside but he doesn't care to play defense, they haven't helped improve his play making, his intellect has stayed the same or regressed even. Failure everywhere.

To think about it, It's embarrassing the highest paid guy on the team gets outplayed by the last 3 top rookie picks we made. Sochan, Victor and Castle. With next year's draft class looking good he'll move down the valuable list again. Each year he's moving down the pecking order in place of rookies, good for the team, not good for him.

[LeBowen]

It is a genuine concern. We don’t seem to draft as well in the mid lottery and end up drafting guys 10 spots to early.

I fear the first part of Wemby’s career will resemble Robinson’s.

We'll be drafting differently when we (hopefully) have a set roster that just needs a few role players.
PATFO obviously went with high upside players in recent drafts, won't be the case in a few years. We'll be looking for steady role players who can contribute right away.

[KingKev]

John B might be the last DV supporter left. Where you at bro.

[Dex]

Parker was never good defensively and yet we didnt really care because he could score buckets and become Tim’s #2. Manu regressed defensively and we didnt care because he could be #2 at any given night. These 2 dudes could give you at least 20 even on a bad night. Vassell’s bad night can be 6 points. That is totally unacceptable.

Parker and Manu also could sense when they didn't have it going, and would defer to Tim or the others.

When Vassell's shot isn't falling...he just keeps firing away. I understand you don't want a shooter to start being passive, but he doesn't have the other skills (passing, cutting, setting screens) to make him a positive on the floor when he is tossing up bricks.

[LeBowen]

When Vassell's shot isn't falling...he just keeps firing away. I understand you don't want a shooter to start being passive, but he doesn't have the other skills (passing, cutting, setting screens) to make him a positive on the floor when he is tossing up bricks.

The thing is that we don't have many others who should be taking shots.
Barnes is really passive in most games, doesn't assert himself and just gets frozen out. Nothing to do with Vassell, he played the same while Devin was injured.
Champagnie is getting the short end of the stick because of veterans, he's been our most reliable perimeter shooter.
We don't want Keldon taking even more shots and there's noone left.
CP3 takes them when he feels like it, doesn't have the legs for increased volume, others are bad shooters.
I'd say that if PATFO aren't serious about getting into the play-in this season (as in we must get a backup big at the very least) then Castle and Jeremy should be forced to take more 3s, would be good for their development. Sometimes brute force approach is the best.

[Tyronn Lue]

The thing is that we don't have many others who should be taking shots.
Barnes is really passive in most games, doesn't assert himself and just gets frozen out. Nothing to do with Vassell, he played the same while Devin was injured.
Champagnie is getting the short end of the stick because of veterans, he's been our most reliable perimeter shooter.
We don't want Keldon taking even more shots and there's noone left.
CP3 takes them when he feels like it, doesn't have the legs for increased volume, others are bad shooters.
I'd say that if PATFO aren't serious about getting into the play-in this season (as in we must get a backup big at the very least) then Castle and Jeremy should be forced to take more 3s, would be good for their development. Sometimes brute force approach is the best.
Julian should get 15 3's a game.

[LeBowen]

Julian should get 15 3's a game.

I'd argue that Julian is our third most functional offensive player after CP3 and Wemby.
He's obviously limited, but in his role he's invaluable and every team wants a player like him.
Textbook shooter movements, knows when to cut and not just stand in the corner, has solid size and is not a negative defensively, fights for rebounds instead of leaking out, never complains, just a perfect complementary piece.
He simply must play at least 25 minutes every game because whoever else is out there is a defensive downgrade in his position.

He obviously shouldn't be tasked with some things like he was in Phily, but as a role player he fits in every lineup and gameplan.
I'd go as far as projecting him as a long term starter because odds of finding a 20ppg wing are very low.

He's just 23 and lost years of development because he got drafted late and was on a Doc Rivers team after. Younger than Knecht for example.
Up to 37% from 3pt on more than 7 attempts.

[Tyronn Lue]

I'd argue that Julian is our third most functional offensive player after CP3 and Wemby.
He's obviously limited, but in his role he's invaluable and every team wants a player like him.
Textbook shooter movements, knows when to cut and not just stand in the corner, has solid size and is not a negative defensively, fights for rebounds instead of leaking out, never complains, just a perfect complementary piece.
He simply must play at least 25 minutes every game because whoever else is out there is a defensive downgrade in his position.

He obviously shouldn't be tasked with some things like he was in Phily, but as a role player he fits in every lineup and gameplan.
I'd go as far as projecting him as a long term starter because odds of finding a 20ppg wing are very low.

He's just 23 and lost years of development because he got drafted late and was on a Doc Rivers team after. Younger than Knecht for example.
Up to 37% from 3pt on more than 7 attempts.
It's not uncommon that NBA caliber brothers play hard because they had each other to compete against day in and day out. Look at the Lopez brothers, Steph and Seth, Melo/Lonzo ball (I forget the youngest one's name) Greek freak and his brother, the Morris brothers, etc.

Julian might be a staple on the Spurs for quite some time. I hope he continues to improve. The entire team needs to work on limiting turnovers and handling clutch time possessions.

[John B]

John B (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=42719) might be the last DV supporter left. Where you at bro.

LOL, nah at this time I want Julian to start and Devin to play the Manu-role. Julian has shown he is committed defensively and fast becoming a reliable 3&D plus more with his rebounding and height. I’m a team-fan not a player-fan.

[MannyIsGod]

Wait, what is up with Devin's stats on the Darko site? Why does it show him with 100 more games than he's played?

[scott]

you know what's funny about that? Vassell has played a total of 255 NBA games, yet your graphic has a graph for 350 :lol

The area above 0 is basically 150 games which are his first 3 seasons, as he missed the majority at the end of the tank for Wemby season. So the lines below 0 are only from last season (which was a tanking season with us still running drop coverage, playing Zach Collins and nobody being in the gaps) and 16 games of this season. You should reevaluate that one :lol 100 games in this graphic say Vassell is a bad defender because he was OUT

That's the way DARKO DPM works. It's a Bayesian projection system, so it makes projections that are updated in response to new inputs. The model doesn't know when Devin will be out, but it knows that based on all the past information what it would project his next game to be. Each of those dots is a projection of the next game.

That sounds like a weird way to look at things, and it's not perfect (it's not intended to be, it's just one metric... but it conforms to all of the other metrics and the "eye test"). What you don't see on the chart is a wide variation of the projections (like you do on some of the other DARKO charts I've posted) because it's not like Devin will have a bad defensive game and then follow it up with some good ones. Devin's projections are fairly consistent because his performance generally conforms to what the model projects. The "What is DARKO" tab here is worth reading for those interested: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

But if you don't like that... then here's a metric calculated differently that tells us the same thing. If someone wants to buy me a DunksandThrees.com subscription, we could chart out multi-year D-EPM and it would tell us the same thing as well.

https://i.ibb.co/X4d2bLL/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-7.png

Devin's not been a good defender for several years now. Coming back from injury this year doesn't really hold up as an excuse. Now, if you want to explain this by saying he was put in a bad system, or being on a tanking team instilled bad habits in him that are very hard to break, etc... I don't disagree with any of those. Tanking has consequences, which is why it's kind of absurd that so many think we can just tank our way to a winning roster and then flip a switch to being a championship team.

[scott]

I'll say it again, the biggest issue is that he's the most common archetype, easiest type of player to find in the league.
Shooting guards who don't do anything other than score aren't that valuable today, even if they're efficent, consistent 20ppg scorers.
Unless you're a 25+ a night player, you better either defend or create on high level, days of pure scorers are long gone if we're talking average starters.

No contender in the league starts a pure shooting guard right now.
Mitchell is a ballhandler, averages almost 5 assists and is one of those 25+ whenever it's needed scorers.

If we assume Castle/Wemby is the core, we need two 3-D players for the starting lineup and a legit triple threat who can score with ease and create for others.
Champ is the placeholder 3-D guy. Who knows, at this rate he might take another leap and become a legit starter.
CP3 is the temporary creator solution.
Obviously Jeremy is starting ahead of Castle, but it's going to be really hard to incorporate both in the starting lineup if they don't develop reliable jumpshots and Castle obviously has a higher ceiling.

Devin is just redundant. It's his 5th season, even if he becomes the best realistic version of himself, he's still a common player.

Here's a serious question for folks... assuming both players have reached their final form, would they rather have Devin Vassell on the team today, or Collin Sexton? I'll let folks respond before I provide some data.

[scott]

Resident BI guy, scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150)

Is there a metric somewhere that shows your performance stat over contract years (and salary size overlay?)

It would be interesting to build out... but I'm not the guy to do it. I've passed the building and creation stage of my career and am now more of a "use and interpret" kind of guy :lol

[scott]

Wait, what is up with Devin's stats on the Darko site? Why does it show him with 100 more games than he's played?

See the post right below yours (#61)

[LeBowen]

Here's a serious question for folks... assuming both players have reached their final form, would they rather have Devin Vassell on the team today, or Collin Sexton? I'll let folks respond before I provide some data.

On the team or in the starting lineup?
I'd rather have Sexton and I'd use him as a 6th man.
Devin doesn't look like a player who would benefit from that role.

I'll give you another hypothetical scenario.
Would you rather have Devin or McDaniels? Same draft, they got pretty much the same extension, it's just that Devin's is front loaded.

[scott]

On the team or in the starting lineup?
I'd rather have Sexton and I'd use him as a 6th man.
Devin doesn't look like a player who would benefit from that role.

I'll give you another hypothetical scenario.
Would you rather have Devin or McDaniels? Same draft, they got pretty much the same extension, it's just that Devin's is front loaded.

Just on the team, in whatever role someone would want to assign.

Devin or McDaniels is a fun question, but very different players. I chose Sexton because he's exactly the common archetype you described in the post I quoted: scoring guard who can't do anything else. Sexton is a scoring guard who does nothing else. In fact, Sexton is absolutely one of the worst defenders in the NBA. We're talking sub-dogwater, Malaki Branham levels of defense. However, he is a more consistent, better offensive player at this point.

Two charts, the first compares their LEBRON ranks by season, and the second overlays them by experience so you can see the development paths. You'll note that the pool of players thins out in the second chart that has experience on the X-axis, which is because it is comparing them against all players with that level of experience (of which there are less and less every year).

https://i.ibb.co/zV6QJph/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-8.png

https://i.ibb.co/vY4JbD2/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-9.png

Devin is a better overall player because Sexton's defense is so absolutely horrid - but if you put them in a role where you don't care about their defense, just the scoring (like a 6th man role), then Sexton might be a better choice. Personally, because our team still needs core players, I want a guy who is at least semi-decent defensively. I can find that 6th man, microwave scorer later (which, by the way, we definitely need)

[RC_Drunkford]

Devin's not been a good defender for several years now. Coming back from injury this year doesn't really hold up as an excuse. Now, if you want to explain this by saying he was put in a bad system, or being on a tanking team instilled bad habits in him that are very hard to break, etc... I don't disagree with any of those. Tanking has consequences, which is why it's kind of absurd that so many think we can just tank our way to a winning roster and then flip a switch to being a championship team.

thanks, that is exactly what I'm saying. He has only played 16 games in 2025 (where we finally have good defensive schemes), so I'll need a larger sample size. I agree though that it's concerning.

[scott]

thanks, that is exactly what I'm saying. He has only played 16 games in 2025 (where we finally have good defensive schemes), so I'll need a larger sample size. I agree though that it's concerning.

Right on, and I think that's fair, but I'm not expecting much change. I think whatever habits Devin has developed are going to be extremely hard to break. It now seems that he's even being somewhat hunted on the defensive end, it could get ugly. For the sake of the team (even if only for Devin's trade value), I hope your optimism comes true and he turns it around.

[RC_Drunkford]

I mean he used to be a pretty good help defender, but for whatever reason now he has problems staying in front of guys like he's Malaki Branham. I can't put my finger on it what's the cause of it.

[Dejounte]

Right on, and I think that's fair, but I'm not expecting much change. I think whatever habits Devin has developed are going to be extremely hard to break. It now seems that he's even being somewhat hunted on the defensive end, it could get ugly. For the sake of the team (even if only for Devin's trade value), I hope your optimism comes true and he turns it around.

The upcoming game should be prime for a breakout from Devin given that this thread has reached three pages. Kudos to everyone who participated. If this reaches six, he might have a career game. Unlikely, but let’s see.

[KingKev]

^ if this reaches fifty we will finally have ourselves a 3rd option

[PhantomDashCam]

My biggest issue with Vassell is his lack of game sense/flow - (admittedly an ephemeral and almost unquantifiable metric). This wasn't a problem early in his career in a more ancillary role.

There is a reason why that "snorkel motion, hand gesture" has taken off with the team - The idea of taking a tough shot and making it in the face of solid defense...the LMA and DDR shot diet.

Vassell loves to take them in some of the most inopportune moments too, game to game.

[z0sa]

Wasn't long ago a lot here were criticising me for even to dare criticise DV. The guy with the biggest contract on the team is a huge disappointment. Mr Quadruple Zero as I like to call him. Never seen a highly paid so called centrepiece pull off 0 rebound 0 assists 0 steals and 0 block statlines so often.

He's a dumb basketball player, only cares about scoring which he's average at that also, makes nobody around him better and provides zero value to the team. It's no coincidence the worst stretch ever in Spurs history comes where he's the highest paid centrepiece of the team.

Hopefully there's a dumb as shit GM out there who will see his 17 point or whatever he gets, overvalues him and offers something for him. And yes the Spurs and Pop failed him. He came into the league with Defensive upside but he doesn't care to play defense, they haven't helped improve his play making, his intellect has stayed the same or regressed even. Failure everywhere.

To think about it, It's embarrassing the highest paid guy on the team gets outplayed by the last 3 top rookie picks we made. Sochan, Victor and Castle. With next year's draft class looking good he'll move down the valuable list again. Each year he's moving down the pecking order in place of rookies, good for the team, not good for him.

He literally just had 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals, and a 1 block on 1 TO. He also shot 40% on 3s though his % overall obviously was trash. Could he have scored better? Certainly, but dunno what game you watched to spark this type of critique, js. Tanking teams or no, he just proved he's capable of making an imprint if he's healthy and gets some consistent time in his role.

Again, I'm no Vassell homer, I've made that abundantly clear last season numerous times and even this season -- but getting rid of him at the first possible opportunity for a guy like Fox? Not a fan of that, either.

I would've bit the bullet for Markannen., tbh. But not Fox.

[Dex]

The thing is that we don't have many others who should be taking shots.
Barnes is really passive in most games, doesn't assert himself and just gets frozen out. Nothing to do with Vassell, he played the same while Devin was injured.
Champagnie is getting the short end of the stick because of veterans, he's been our most reliable perimeter shooter.
We don't want Keldon taking even more shots and there's noone left.
CP3 takes them when he feels like it, doesn't have the legs for increased volume, others are bad shooters.
I'd say that if PATFO aren't serious about getting into the play-in this season (as in we must get a backup big at the very least) then Castle and Jeremy should be forced to take more 3s, would be good for their development. Sometimes brute force approach is the best.

For better or worse, I don't see the Spurs making any big moves this season unless there is just an offer they can't resist. And in today's NBA landscape, those don't come around much and can often backfire.

The most likely scenario: they play it out with this group, wrestle with the rotations and see if they have enough for a play-in spot. Making the playoffs would be huge for Wemby's morale...and the West seems kinda wide-open right now.

Another wild card here is Pop being out. With his future uncertain, I'm sure the FO is going to be hard-pressed to make a "win-now" move.

[diego]

The roster is so bad that tossing vassel isn't an easy decision. Clearly the spurs have failed him both with his development and health, in the end for me he doesn't need to be a star just solid starter but I lean on the negative with his health, it seems like he gets dinged up a lot for a guy with his play style..

[onechance87]

The roster is so bad that tossing vassel isn't an easy decision. Clearly the spurs have failed him both with his development and health, in the end for me he doesn't need to be a star just solid starter but I lean on the negative with his health, it seems like he gets dinged up a lot for a guy with his play style..

this front office is naive.Extending branham and wesley when everybody knew they arent good.Yet they still look at them it seems in there
future plans.Some of us were calling for us to trade vassell last year including myself.Im not sure about about sochan either.Hope we dont
make another mistake of giving him a big contract this offseason.Hes been playing ok.But his shooting did get worst.

[Chomag]

He would be on the bench on a contender yet some of you here want us to stick with him an force him to be our 2nd option.

Spurs should be looking to trade him now while his stock is the highest because his value is going to keep dropping at this point

You guys wanting to hold on to all these low tier players will never give us the legit talent needed to build around Wemby

[scott]

He would be on the bench on a contender yet some of you here want us to stick with him an force him to be our 2nd option.

Spurs should be looking to trade him now while his stock is the highest because his value is going to keep dropping at this point

You guys wanting to hold on to all these low tier players will never give us the legit talent needed to build around Wemby

There are a lot of people on this forum who want to give too long of a leash to our below average players... but at least they also don't want to give up any of our precious draft picks for any good players either :lol

[Slippy]

DV is adjusting to his newer role. He gone from having freedom to shoot off the bench with mins restrictions to no mins restrictions but lesser freedom to shoot, playing around victor & now Chris as well. Previous seasons he had to be his own shot creator. Once comfortable in his role and in rhythm , I'm hoping he comes out of his shooting slump soon. Reckon the spurs think the same unlike many flakey fans here

[KobesAchilles]

DV is adjusting to his newer role. He gone from having freedom to shoot off the bench with mins restrictions to no mins restrictions but lesser freedom to shoot, playing around victor & now Chris as well. Previous seasons he had to be his own shot creator. Once comfortable in his role and in rhythm , I'm hoping he comes out of his shooting slump soon. Reckon the spurs think the same unlike many flakey fans here
Flakey fans :lol
so the dude has to adjust to playing actual basketball instead of dumbass basketball of where he just puts up whatever shot he wants. Also nobody really gives a fuck about his shooting slump. It’s his lack of effort and IQ on defense that us flakey fans are tired of. And every time it got brought up it was always glossed over by non-flakey fans as him being young and him needing to learn the system and him adjusting. 5 fuxking years later and it’s still the same shit. Just say he’s moronic basketball player and get it over with. Bc after 5 years of playing with the Spurs, it isn’t that you’re actually defending Vassell when you say he needs to “adjust,” you are admitting he’s a fucking dumbass.

[onechance87]

DV is adjusting to his newer role. He gone from having freedom to shoot off the bench with mins restrictions to no mins restrictions but lesser freedom to shoot, playing around victor & now Chris as well. Previous seasons he had to be his own shot creator. Once comfortable in his role and in rhythm , I'm hoping he comes out of his shooting slump soon. Reckon the spurs think the same unlike many flakey fans here

lol...........

[z0sa]

22 points
7 rebs
4 ast
0 TO
+5/8-14 FG

Let's chill on the DV hate, maybe? Just a thought.

[scott]

22 points
7 rebs
4 ast
0 TO
+5/8-14 FG

Let's chill on the DV hate, maybe? Just a thought.

Now let's see him do it consistently. That's the problem with Devin. He'll do this for a few games, then go back to 12 point performances (or out for 10-12 games with a boo boo)

[z0sa]

Now let's see him do it consistently. That's the problem with Devin. He'll do this for a few games, then go back to 12 point performances (or out for 10-12 games with a boo boo)

Agreed. Simple but truly, I agree completely.

It's his consistency that, in my humble opinion, has confused and/or frustrated some of the Spurs' biggest fans, such as you and I. I just feel he deserves this season after being given the rope to hang himself last season (figuratively, of course). He had every opportunity to fuck up and while it did happen from time to time, he approached everything as a professional. He's a millionaire and I hesitate to say a millionaire deserves shit, but he has a chance to do something great over the next 5-6 weeks. If not, yeah put him on the trading block.

[Fireball]

22 points
7 rebs
4 ast
0 TO
+5/8-14 FG

Let's chill on the DV hate, maybe? Just a thought.

not bad against a defense like Minnesota ... lets hope he can build on that and be consistent

[RC_Drunkford]

loved his passing in this game, he found wide open shooters at the 3-point line a bunch of times instead of shooting a tough fadeaway. When it's Sochan though, I'd rather have Devin shoot the tough shot :lol

[Slippy]

Flakey fans :lol
so the dude has to adjust to playing actual basketball instead of dumbass basketball of where he just puts up whatever shot he wants. Also nobody really gives a fuck about his shooting slump. It’s his lack of effort and IQ on defense that us flakey fans are tired of. And every time it got brought up it was always glossed over by non-flakey fans as him being young and him needing to learn the system and him adjusting. 5 fuxking years later and it’s still the same shit. Just say he’s moronic basketball player and get it over with. Bc after 5 years of playing with the Spurs, it isn’t that you’re actually defending Vassell when you say he needs to “adjust,” you are admitting he’s a fucking dumbass.

:lol You think that's funny. I aint going around saying a full time pro who probably live and dies playing ball doesn't know how to play the game. Actually funnier is Scott with his BS graphics= thats a man on a misson with alot of time on his hands.

Aside ffrom what ive already posted the biggest adjustment DV has to make is learning to play around his 7foot3 teammate who loves to live ou5side shooting alreast 10 fuking threes in games. Keeping in mind Devs is a shooter.

Would love to see a graphic illustrating the 3s Vic takes in comparison to other centres of the nba & all his peers. Got a feeling he'll be a standout.:lol

Lost count how many trashy 3s Vic put up in the 4th. Then finally went inside for an easy left hand dunk.

[CorrectCrusader]

Damn, I wasn't even expecting this

https://i.ibb.co/NySMJr0/bad-d-darko.png
Worse than Bryn Forbes defensively is simply unacceptable.
Bench player status

[The Truth #6]

It seems he's playing a better brand lately generally speaking. But I still notice a few ball stopping isolation plays now and then. Hopefully he learns the point is to shoot more easy shots.

[KobesAchilles]

:lol You think that's funny. I aint going around saying a full time pro who probably live and dies playing ball doesn't know how to play the game. Actually funnier is Scott with his BS graphics= thats a man on a misson with alot of time on his hands.

Aside ffrom what ive already posted the biggest adjustment DV has to make is learning to play around his 7foot3 teammate who loves to live ou5side shooting alreast 10 fuking threes in games. Keeping in mind Devs is a shooter.

Would love to see a graphic illustrating the 3s Vic takes in comparison to other centres of the nba & all his peers. Got a feeling he'll be a standout.:lol

Lost count how many trashy 3s Vic put up in the 4th. Then finally went inside for an easy left hand dunk.
You keep posting about offense. I already said idgaf about his offense. But on the topic of offense, Vic is the franchise player. There’s a big fucking difference between him and Vassell in importance. If Vassell can’t adjust to Vic’s game then he needs to get the fuck out immediately. What a stupid argument. I mean the horror of a 17ppg scorer having to adjust his game to the 5th best player in the world…

But what’s your excuse on defense? The dude is a traffic cone on defense. And he has had 5 years to learn how to play defense. Castle looks better on D after 2 months but genius DV still sucks after 5 years. Lots of guys are talented but don’t know how to play winning basketball. Devin is one of those guys. Imagine “living and dying” basketball and still not knowing how to play defense or play around an all generational talent as a fucking role player :lol

[scott]

Agreed. Simple but truly, I agree completely.

It's his consistency that, in my humble opinion, has confused and/or frustrated some of the Spurs' biggest fans, such as you and I. I just feel he deserves this season after being given the rope to hang himself last season (figuratively, of course). He had every opportunity to fuck up and while it did happen from time to time, he approached everything as a professional. He's a millionaire and I hesitate to say a millionaire deserves shit, but he has a chance to do something great over the next 5-6 weeks. If not, yeah put him on the trading block.

I agree, unless of course a great deal that we can't refuse comes along (which I doubt it will) that we give it the rest of this season and see where he's at. My only fear is that he gets hot for the last 10 games and gives us fools gold - but that will be on the FO to figure out.

[Slippy]

You keep posting about offense. I already said idgaf about his offense. But on the topic of offense, Vic is the franchise player. There’s a big fucking difference between him and Vassell in importance. If Vassell can’t adjust to Vic’s game then he needs to get the fuck out immediately. What a stupid argument. I mean the horror of a 17ppg scorer having to adjust his game to the 5th best player in the world…

But what’s your excuse on defense? The dude is a traffic cone on defense. And he has had 5 years to learn how to play defense. Castle looks better on D after 2 months but genius DV still sucks after 5 years. Lots of guys are talented but don’t know how to play winning basketball. Devin is one of those guys. Imagine “living and dying” basketball and still not knowing how to play defense or play around an all generational talent as a fucking role player :lol

This isnt asn argument. Its a fact. Devs the one making the adjustment along with the rest of his teammates. Their starting centre takes an abnormally crazy high amount of threes meaning if they dont adjust they pretty much become a perimeter orientated team.

Devs defence is not bad as posted on here or the graphics suggest. lol Yes his man on man could be better as in staying in front more often but theres no way he reached 100% fitness yet. The 1on1 D should get better once he familiarizes with his starter teammates & regains that fitness.
Also think he more than makes up for it as a help defender. Seeing alot of rebounds, protection of passing lanes and helping his teammates contest shots. Its been more than adequate.

Wow im amazed at the excuses for the 5th best players in the world is afforded. for example from last nights game . Vic takes a trashy 3 early out of the offense, then excuses himself by telling the coaches get me out. im tired. As a conerstone of the of the team thats not good enough in my book. He needs to lead by example. Good thing we arnt holding Vic to the standard of Dave, Tim or Manu.

[KobesAchilles]

DV has never been a good defender. He’s not as bad as the graphics or his ratings or his metrics? Now who is making excuses. :lol

You’re a weird troll. The hype DV train and shit on Wemby train isn’t exactly one I would tie myself to. Somehow bc Wemby takes threes that means that DV can’t take threes? Makes sense to me. Vassell needs to continue to take bad shots bc Wemby is taking too many threes. Oh ok. Also who would you like taking threes then seeing as we are a horrible 3 point shooting team and would be the worst 3 point shooting team in the league if Wemby wasn’t making 4 a game.

Look maybe you’re DVs family and just defending your own. But what exactly does Devin bring to the table? 17 ppg and zero defense. We can find that anywhere. What does Wemby bring to the table? All world defense, leading the team in blocks, rebounds, points, FG%, second in assists.

Also I wonder what the Spurs record is with DV as a starter vs DV coming off the bench or DV not playing at all. Look it up and then get back to me at how essential DV is this year.

[spurraider21]

Damn, I wasn't even expecting this

https://i.ibb.co/NySMJr0/bad-d-darko.png
tracks with the eye test that he was actually a good defender during his first 2 years and has just continued to get worse

[Russo21]

Absolutely loving this DV hate around here recently. Glad you guys are catching on finally :clap Mr Quadruple Zero is trash. Sellfish, low IQ hero baller.

Honestly you can be a fan of the team, but you don't have to blindly love every player who wears silver and black and love every move the FO makes. Call a spade a spade, it is what it is. It was a rebuilding era sure, but it's no surprise to me the worst stretch in San Antonio Spurs history coincides with DV being the guy on the team with the biggest contract and being a foundation piece. It's time to move on and the sooner the better. Hopefully some dumb as shit GM sees DV'S 17ppg and offers something for him soon enough.

Hilariously and sadly for Vassell he keeps being taken over by rookie after rookie after rookie. Sochan? Not sold on him but he's better and more complete than DV. Victor? Better than DV. Castle? Better than DV already. Our last 3 main rookies? All better than him. All 3 way younger. All have higher ceilings. Every year he is moving down the order of importance to the team for freaking rookie after rookie. That's sad, it's pathetic. Next year's draft looks good and deep, he'll likely move down the importance list yet again to yet another 1 or possibly even 2 rookies. It's embarrassing and says a lot about him as a player. Time to move on.

[scott]

DV has never been a good defender. He’s not as bad as the graphics or his ratings or his metrics? Now who is making excuses. :lol

You’re a weird troll. The hype DV train and shit on Wemby train isn’t exactly one I would tie myself to. Somehow bc Wemby takes threes that means that DV can’t take threes? Makes sense to me. Vassell needs to continue to take bad shots bc Wemby is taking too many threes. Oh ok. Also who would you like taking threes then seeing as we are a horrible 3 point shooting team and would be the worst 3 point shooting team in the league if Wemby wasn’t making 4 a game.

Look maybe you’re DVs family and just defending your own. But what exactly does Devin bring to the table? 17 ppg and zero defense. We can find that anywhere. What does Wemby bring to the table? All world defense, leading the team in blocks, rebounds, points, FG%, second in assists.

Also I wonder what the Spurs record is with DV as a starter vs DV coming off the bench or DV not playing at all. Look it up and then get back to me at how essential DV is this year.

Wemby: Ranks in the 99.9% in Crafted PlusMinus (95% OPM, 99.9% DPM)
Devin Vassell: Ranks 34% in Crafted PlusMinus (72% OPM, 8% DPM)

Sounds like Wemby needs to adjust his game around Vassell.

[scott]

At this point, my expectation is for Devin Vassell's career trajectory to look a lot like D'Angelo Russell's. Young, promising, 20ppg scorer who eventually just becomes a no-defense playing offensive specialist with an oversized contract that no one really wants. I'm just gonna start calling him D'Vin.

[baseline bum]

There are a lot of people on this forum who want to give too long of a leash to our below average players... but at least they also don't want to give up any of our precious draft picks for any good players either :lol

The boat is a boat, but the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat!

[baseline bum]

At this point, my expectation is for Devin Vassell's career trajectory to look a lot like D'Angelo Russell's. Young, promising, 20ppg scorer who eventually just becomes a no-defense playing offensive specialist with an oversized contract that no one really wants. I'm just gonna start calling him D'Vin.

IDK man, D'Bust made an allstar team. Maybe Devin can become poor man's D'Angelo Russell.

[LeBowen]

At this point, my expectation is for Devin Vassell's career trajectory to look a lot like D'Angelo Russell's. Young, promising, 20ppg scorer who eventually just becomes a no-defense playing offensive specialist with an oversized contract that no one really wants. I'm just gonna start calling him D'Vin.

We'd be lucky if he becomes an offensive 20ppg specialist. He disappears way too often. My biggest issue with him last season was how passive he got at times and just stood there while Keldon and Jeremy chuck us out of games.
This season he adopted main character syndrome, beyond furstrating to watch.

We can try hope to get him back on the right path, but if he continues like this everyone around the league will realize he's just a tank commander and then we got another Keldon on our hands.

[jehawk81]

We'd be lucky if he becomes an offensive 20ppg specialist. He disappears way too often. My biggest issue with him last season was how passive he got at times and just stood there while Keldon and Jeremy chuck us out of games.
This season he adopted main character syndrome, beyond furstrating to watch.

We can try hope to get him back on the right path, but if he continues like this everyone around the league will realize he's just a tank commander and then we got another Keldon on our hands.

I can't stand watching him play on both sides of the court. IDK why people on here were talking about him like he was the 2nd star Wemby needs. The comparisons to D-Russ are actually very bad as Vassell is looking more & more like Keldon.

[onechance87]

Vassell may have to go back to the bench if he cant get it together.

[Slippy]

DV has never been a good defender. He’s not as bad as the graphics or his ratings or his metrics? Now who is making excuses. :lol

You’re a weird troll. The hype DV train and shit on Wemby train isn’t exactly one I would tie myself to. Somehow bc Wemby takes threes that means that DV can’t take threes? Makes sense to me. Vassell needs to continue to take bad shots bc Wemby is taking too many threes. Oh ok. Also who would you like taking threes then seeing as we are a horrible 3 point shooting team and would be the worst 3 point shooting team in the league if Wemby wasn’t making 4 a game.

Look maybe you’re DVs family and just defending your own. But what exactly does Devin bring to the table? 17 ppg and zero defense. We can find that anywhere. What does Wemby bring to the table? All world defense, leading the team in blocks, rebounds, points, FG%, second in assists.

Also I wonder what the Spurs record is with DV as a starter vs DV coming off the bench or DV not playing at all. Look it up and then get back to me at how essential DV is this year.

If you cant make sense of what im saying. Well, watch tonights clips game. Cant ask for more from Vic.

He didnt settle for the 3. Made it a focus to go inside from the 1st q& dominated both ends. He was a presence to his teammates . Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Lead by example

DV however I'm definitely concerned after a step in the right direction previous game. His lack of ability to stay in front of his man looks worse this season..especially on the 1st step.Thats why im hoping it's a confidence or fitness issue to do with with his knee.

[spursparker9]

Vassell's jumpers look broken tbh

His upper body is leaning too forward when he was pulling up.

[LeBowen]

Looking at Castle's stats as a starter got me thinking...

Castle as a starter, 17 games: 14.6/2.6/4.5 with 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks and 2.1 turnovers on 40/31/78
Devin as a starter, 7 games: 14.3/4.6/3.0 with 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1 turnover on 41/31/86

If we take into account that Castle is a way better defender, should it even be a discussion? Yeah, I know people are going to say Devin is coming off an injury, but we're talking about a rookie here who's got way more untapped potential when he figures things out.

Also, obviously it can't just be a Castle/Devin change, it's more like Castle+Champ vs Devin+Jeremy.
Mitch should seriously consider making it matchup based. If there's no big wing Jeremy needs to take care of, lineup with Castle and Champ is obviously doing better.

[Raven]

vassell is playing perfectly fine, i don't know what you guys are talking about

[Raven]

Looking at Castle's stats as a starter got me thinking...

Castle as a starter, 17 games: 14.6/2.6/4.5 with 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks and 2.1 turnovers on 40/31/78
Devin as a starter, 7 games: 14.3/4.6/3.0 with 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1 turnover on 41/31/86

If we take into account that Castle is a way better defender, should it even be a discussion? Yeah, I know people are going to say Devin is coming off an injury, but we're talking about a rookie here who's got way more untapped potential when he figures things out.

Also, obviously it can't just be a Castle/Devin change, it's more like Castle+Champ vs Devin+Jeremy.
Mitch should seriously consider making it matchup based. If there's no big wing Jeremy needs to take care of, lineup with Castle and Champ is obviously doing better.

castle is a better defender __potentially__.. he is currently pretty bad and gets exposed a lot.

[LeBowen]

castle is a better defender __potentially__.. he is currently pretty bad and gets exposed a lot.

Devin has been a turnstile this season, not just when it comes to staying in front of his man, but he's got defensive decision making of someone who never played basketball before.

Nvm, I just remembered you're the guy who keeps shitting on Castle's defense, that's your gimmick. We got so many posters with strange gimmicks in here, tbh.

[exstatic]

Looking at Castle's stats as a starter got me thinking...

Castle as a starter, 17 games: 14.6/2.6/4.5 with 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks and 2.1 turnovers on 40/31/78
Devin as a starter, 7 games: 14.3/4.6/3.0 with 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1 turnover on 41/31/86

If we take into account that Castle is a way better defender, should it even be a discussion? Yeah, I know people are going to say Devin is coming off an injury, but we're talking about a rookie here who's got way more untapped potential when he figures things out.

Also, obviously it can't just be a Castle/Devin change, it's more like Castle+Champ vs Devin+Jeremy.
Mitch should seriously consider making it matchup based. If there's no big wing Jeremy needs to take care of, lineup with Castle and Champ is obviously doing better.

The problem with that comparison is that it’s the best Castle has played, and the worst that Vassell has EVER played.

[LeBowen]

The problem with that comparison is that it’s the best Castle has played, and the worst that Vassell has EVER played.

It's Castle's rookie season and he's playing the most difficult position for a rookie. Point of attack defender on defense and point guard on offense. That's why not playing point full time helps him so much.

It's Devin's 5th year and at some point you have to ask what's his actual level? Every tanking team has those ~20ppg scorers who look good, but in the end it turns out they didn't really contribute to winning.
Vassell has yet to prove he's a winning player.

[exstatic]

It's Castle's rookie season and he's playing the most difficult position for a rookie. Point of attack defender on defense and point guard on offense. That's why not playing point full time helps him so much.

It's Devin's 5th year and at some point you have to ask what's his actual level? Every tanking team has those ~20ppg scorers who look good, but in the end it turns out they didn't really contribute to winning.
Vassell has yet to prove he's a winning player.

Yeah, but none of that changes the fact that a worst to best comparison is neither fair nor valid. I’d take rookie Devin in a starter comparison over rookie Castle. In fact, I’d take any year Devin except this injury recovery season.

[LeBowen]

Yeah, but none of that changes the fact that a worst to best comparison is neither fair nor valid.

It's absolutely valid. You can have a different opinion on who should be the starter going forward, but the comparison is valid because the goal of this comparison isn't to determine who's a better player individually, but who will the team benefit from more long-term.

Do you want to maximize your rookie who's obviously got potential to be a high end, two-way starter?
Or you want to get your supposed second option back on track even though he's been unable to stay healthy for some time now and some aspects of his game are raising serious questions?


As for Devin's actual impact, I'm sure scott has some not so flattering advanced metrics. ;)

[scott]

vassell is playing perfectly fine, i don't know what you guys are talking about

Another "Collins is having an objectively good season" take - perfect!

[scott]

As for Devin's actual impact, I'm sure scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150) has some not so flattering advanced metrics. ;)

Don't even need an advanced metric, just this one:

https://i.ibb.co/v3fc8GF/onoff.png

Spurs are a better team with Castle in over Devin. What's left to discuss?

[scott]

Been debating with the homers on Reddit over Vassell this morning. People are truly delusional. One dude's legitimately saying Devin can't be having a bad season, because he is shooting the second best TS% of his career (.558)... nevermind that .558 isn't actually all that impressive (.572 is the cutoff to even crack the Top-50 among SGs).

People have been really bamboozled into think Vassell is a lot better player than he really is.

[timtonymanu]

Been debating with the homers on Reddit over Vassell this morning. People are truly delusional. One dude's legitimately saying Devin can't be having a bad season, because he is shooting the second best TS% of his career (.558)... nevermind that .558 isn't actually all that impressive (.572 is the cutoff to even crack the Top-50 among SGs).

People have been really bamboozled into think Vassell is a lot better player than he really is.

Reddit makes the sniffers on here look like “edgelords.” Has to be young fans who are use to the Spurs losing. They literally defend every one of our rotation players and don’t want to trade any of them because the players are all :cry so nice and wholesome.

[The Truth #6]

Can we talk about me for a second? After his first playback from injury, he immediately went into hero mode. It was obvious to me then and more so now that he will need to adjust and it's not going to be that much by choice. To give credit where credit is due, it does seem like Mitch is guiding him in this way to some degree, and Devin is playing less like a moron, but then there's still the defensive issues.

[SpursBills]

Been debating with the homers on Reddit over Vassell this morning. People are truly delusional. One dude's legitimately saying Devin can't be having a bad season, because he is shooting the second best TS% of his career (.558)... nevermind that .558 isn't actually all that impressive (.572 is the cutoff to even crack the Top-50 among SGs).

People have been really bamboozled into think Vassell is a lot better player than he really is.

Your prior comparison of De'Andre Hunter is actually spot on for Vassell. Came into the league as a 3 and D player, showed some promise early, signed to a bloated contract, defense is actually terrible, ends up having renaissance of sorts off the bench as a still-shitty defender but good 3 point shooter giving the second unit some juice.

[scott]

Your prior comparison of De'Andre Hunter is actually spot on for Vassell. Came into the league as a 3 and D player, showed some promise early, signed to a bloated contract, defense is actually terrible, ends up having renaissance of sorts off the bench as a still-shitty defender but good 3 point shooter giving the second unit some juice.

Indeed. And while his contract is bigger than what you'd like to pay your 6th man, it's really not that bad if he could be a high-level contributor in that role since we have Wemby and Castle on rookie deals. Just jettisoning Keldon and Collins gets you massive amount of cap flexibility so Devin's deal really isn't that problematic.

Can Devin make the D'Andre transition?

I don't think there is a way to actually achieve it (well, I guess more picks always does the trick) but I'd be down for a Fox/Castle/Vassell 3-man primary guard rotation. You just need to sprinkle in a player like Tre to absorb some extra minutes here and there. Castle's versatility to play alongside Fox or Vassell is key.

While I like the picture you've painted of Fears, I don't think Fears/Castle/Vassell works the same way simply because I don't want to wait 2-3 years for Fears to become a high level NBA player. I want to maximize having a Top3 player on an MLE-level deal for the next 2.5 years.

[baseline bum]

Blows me away how shitty a defender Vassell can be with that 6'10" wingspan.

[LeBowen]

Blows me away how shitty a defender Vassell can be with that 6'10" wingspan.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/mvx-VmWQxDR4Uw-_EVMFMVptIQU=/0x0:8640x5760/1200x800/filters:focal(2929x1770:4311x3152)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/73338964/usa_today_22687813.0.jpg

[ambchang]

Vassell has never been seen as the second star by PATFO, or even himself, otherwise his contract would be a better contract. He is being paid as a 3rd or 4th option on a team but the problem is he’s not even living up to that now. Vassell either has to really go his offensive efficiency or get back as a lockdown defender to justify that contract, otherwise he’d be a liability.

[Dejounte]

Vassell has never been seen as the second star by PATFO, or even himself, otherwise his contract would be a better contract. He is being paid as a 3rd or 4th option on a team but the problem is he’s not even living up to that now. Vassell either has to really go his offensive efficiency or get back as a lockdown defender to justify that contract, otherwise he’d be a liability.

Disagree. This is an org that has had its past stars paid below average. They were likely hoping he’d play above his salary and become their 2nd guu.

[scott]

Vassell has never been seen as the second star by PATFO, or even himself, otherwise his contract would be a better contract. He is being paid as a 3rd or 4th option on a team but the problem is he’s not even living up to that now. Vassell either has to really go his offensive efficiency or get back as a lockdown defender to justify that contract, otherwise he’d be a liability.

I have no way of knowing for certain, but Devin puts off the vibes that he thinks of himself as the Primary Star

[timtonymanu]

I have no way of knowing for certain, but Devin puts off the vibes that he thinks of himself as the Primary Star

I remember pre-Wemby, Dev was doing a live and then a spurs fans said something like tank for Wemby and then dev does “why bring up Wemby? We’re gonna surprise some people this year.” Only for them to win 22 games lol.

[NASpurs]

I have no way of knowing for certain, but Devin puts off the vibes that he thinks of himself as the Primary Star

Yeah this is exactly I called him a poser in the past. Sounds like someone hasn't gotten over himself. Un-Spursy

[ambchang]

I have no way of knowing for certain, but Devin puts off the vibes that he thinks of himself as the Primary Star

Same here, can’t tell for sure, but if he did he’d gotten a better deal elsewhere, so I’m concluding he knew.

Also agree that he’s jacking shots up like he’s prime kobe, so maybe that’s the only way he knows how to play, which is an even bigger problem

[LeBowen]

wrong topic

[scott]

Yo... fuck this dude.

[SpursBills]

Damn it seems like just yesterday when most of us thought that Vassell had more value than Tyler Herro because "6'10" wingspan" and "two way potential". I'd kill for stubby arms-no-defense-unathletic white guy Herro in place of Vassell on this team right now. Or shit, even Austin Reaves.

[onechance87]

Damn it seems like just yesterday when most of us thought that Vassell had more value than Tyler Herro because "6'10" wingspan" and "two way potential". I'd kill for stubby arms-no-defense-unathletic white guy Herro in place of Vassell on this team right now. Or shit, even Austin Reaves.

yup...i wanted austin a couple of years ago when we got wemby.Claimed he would be a better fit next to wemby compared to vassell.
Majority of spurs fans said i was a dumbass that vassell was better by miles lol.Now im saying rn sochan dont fit next to wemby either.
Hope we dont make the same mistake giving him a big contract.

[dn0774]

Devin has been the same player for 3 seasons now, concerning to see that during his prime development years. The Spurs are going to have to make some hard decisions over the next 6 months (potential Fox trade, draft ofc, Sochan extension) and I am concerned Wright and Co don’t have the stones to make tough decisions, especially ones that could disappoint casual fans (like moving on from Sochan, Vassell if trades or extensions warrant it).

Sochan is going to get a big ass extension based on his improved counting stats this season despite the fact his on court fit is problematic. His offensive profile is so odd/non traditional that he has to have a near Draymond impact on defense to make the juice worth the squeeze and that just isn’t the case. Dude has a cool personality and has been fun on the Spurs, I just think a big financial commitment to him would be a mistake going forward due to his obvious shortcomings. But like I said, I’m expecting Wright to drop a bag in his lap this summer anyway. Oh well.

[RC_Drunkford]

Devin has been in a terrible shooting slump since he got inserted back in the starting line up. Shooting way below 30% from 3. He's a way better shooter than that, but he needs to get out of it ASAP.

[jermaine]

Devin was my favorite player since Kawhi. I truly thought he was gonna be #1 option an wemby would compliment him. Boooooy, he's proving me wrong.

[KingKev]

Devin was my favorite player since Kawhi. I truly thought he was gonna be #1 option an wemby would compliment him. Boooooy, he's proving me wrong.

Up until recently DV also thought that!

[TheChillFactor]

I really like Devin, I'm higher than most on him. I know he's in a bad shooting slump, but I feel like he's showing us he can't be a Pippen to Wemby.

He just doesn't affect the game if he isn't shooting well.

[onechance87]

How the fck is 40 year old cp3 outplaying and showing more heart then vassell...Send his ass back to the bench.

[scott]

Just checking in on whether this guy is still untouchable.

[Kurik]

Just checking in on whether this guy is still untouchable.

Look at it this way, no other teams are gonna want to touch if this slump continues.

[KingKev]

Just checking in on whether this guy is still untouchable.

Like a leper!

[vy65]

If basketball were school, he would have failed kindergarten

[Manu-of-steel]

DV has low to average basketball IQ. He needs to go to the bench. His role should be like Jordan Clarkson. If his shot isnt falling, he's not good for the team

[vy65]

Long hair Eddie House minus the clutch-ness

[mystargtr34]

Moving Vassell to the bench is like shitting your pants and changing your t shirt.

He needs to be traded this off season while the dumb teams still think he has some value.

[DPG21920]

Honestly, his shot is just off (and selection too). But before these last few games, he wasn’t doing anything else to play winning ball much. But lately? He’s busting his butt on defense, hes grabbing boards and even passing a bit better.

Once his shot starts to fall (which IMO it will hes a very solid shooter) I think people will see what he can do. But that’s just my take.

[Ice009]

No one has failed Vassell. He has failed. This team is full of scrubs. Without Chris Paul, this team would still be bottom 5 in the league, and without Victor (if the Spurs didn't win the lottery), I don't even know how bad they'd be.

[TVI]

Devin has been in a terrible shooting slumpk since he got inserted back in the starting line up. Shooting way below 30% from 3. He's a way better shooter than that, but he needs to get out of it ASAP.

Bring him off the bench. Champs is a better fit with Wemby and CP3, and this gives Vassell the green light to chuck away while Wemby is resting. Win-Win.

[KingKev]

Bring him off the bench. Champs is a better fit with Wemby and CP3, and this gives Vassell the green light to chuck away while Wemby is resting. Win-Win.

Agreed Champ fits better in the starting lineup but his chucking is exactly the problem. He has had a green light since year 3 during the tanking days. It was given not earned and now PATFO reap what they sow.

Dejounte didn’t get that green light till his final year. Let that shit burn.

[RC_Drunkford]

He‘s now shooting 40% from the field and 27% from 3 since becoming a starter. Yikes! He‘s obviously much better than that, I hope he gets back to his regular percentages.

[spurraider21]

Honestly, his shot is just off (and selection too). But before these last few games, he wasn’t doing anything else to play winning ball much. But lately? He’s busting his butt on defense, hes grabbing boards and even passing a bit better.

Once his shot starts to fall (which IMO it will hes a very solid shooter) I think people will see what he can do. But that’s just my take.
i actually agree. the ancillary parts of his game have looked better as of late, but its come alongside a very nast shooting slump. he's now down to 34% from 3 on the season

[Atl Spur]

Vassell is ok he just needs to increase that bbiq; slumps happens to the best shooters so why would he be exempt?

[100%duncan]

:lmao

[100%duncan]

Just checking in on whether this guy is still untouchable.


Look at it this way, no other teams are gonna want to touch if this slump continues.


Long hair Eddie House minus the clutch-ness


Up until recently DV also thought that!


Moving Vassell to the bench is like shitting your pants and changing your t shirt.

He needs to be traded this off season while the dumb teams still think he has some value.

Some golden comments here :lmao

[KingKev]

I read a kid got bullied at a local SA middle school for wearing Devin Vassell’s clothing line. Trying to find the link. Rough out here guys. Stay safe.

[timtonymanu]

Spurs players that wear #24 :lol

Although Richard Jefferson would have done more than this bum on the current Spurs

[Robz4000]

Honestly, his shot is just off (and selection too). But before these last few games, he wasn’t doing anything else to play winning ball much. But lately? He’s busting his butt on defense, hes grabbing boards and even passing a bit better.

Once his shot starts to fall (which IMO it will hes a very solid shooter) I think people will see what he can do. But that’s just my take.


i actually agree. the ancillary parts of his game have looked better as of late, but its come alongside a very nast shooting slump. he's now down to 34% from 3 on the season

I feel the opposite tbh, his overall game has somehow gotten worse; gotta wonder if his foot injuries have fucked him. Also might have a fatal case of the Kirby's.

[scott]

Been waiting for this guy to make me and my new avatar look stupid.

The wait goes on…

[KobesAchilles]

All those vocal Vassell defenders when I called him a low iq player who doesn’t know how to play winning basketball are awfully quiet now…

I want to hear RC Drunkford defend this dude some more and tell me how stupid I am to have that opinion. Good times. Good times.

[onechance87]

All those vocal Vassell defenders when I called him a low iq player who doesn’t know how to play winning basketball are awfully quiet now…

I want to hear RC Drunkford defend this dude some more and tell me how stupid I am to have that opinion. Good times. Good times.

yup some of us called it awhile ago.But got called haters and that we didnt know anything about basketball.They actually called
him untouchable lmao

[Russo21]

4/17FG �� useless heroballer thinks he's the man

[KobesAchilles]

yup some of us called it awhile ago.But got called haters and that we didnt know anything about basketball.They actually called
him untouchable lmao
Vassell is untouchable. For other teams :lol

[spursparker9]

Why didn't we draft Haliburton in 2020? :lol

[dbestpro]

Time to Vassel late.

[LeBowen]

Why didn't we draft Haliburton in 2020? :lol

Because we had both Dejounte and Derrick on the roster, PATFO masterminds went with a better positional fit...only to trade away both of our point guards within two years.

[objective]

Worst shooting season of his career so far, and 4 games in January he's hitting 23% from 3.

Dunc'd On had a stat over the weekend about Vassell having the 10th hardest shot diet in the league. Clearly he's being asked to do too much

The shooting slump I hope will turn around, but he should be put in plays where he can move into a shot off the catch rather than the "here's the ball now dribble dribble dribble into a midrange or worse" offense they have been doing

[SpurSpike]

With CP3 and Wemby on the team his shot selection shouldn't be so bad...

[The Truth #6]

Worst shooting season of his career so far, and 4 games in January he's hitting 23% from 3.

Dunc'd On had a stat over the weekend about Vassell having the 10th hardest shot diet in the league. Clearly he's being asked to do too much

The shooting slump I hope will turn around, but he should be put in plays where he can move into a shot off the catch rather than the "here's the ball now dribble dribble dribble into a midrange or worse" offense they have been doing

I don't think he's being asked, I think he's just convinced himself this is what he needs to do.

Overall, his trajectory is crazy. Underrecruited. Overachiever. Came in as a defensive player with seeds of an offensive game. Now he's a chucker. That's wild.

I don't think he has low bbq; it's way better than Keldon, the problem is he CHOOSES to play this way.

Keldon wants to be a smart team player that wins, but it's just not there.

[BatManu20]

Vassell's trade value has plummeted this season tbh. Our best hope is that he turns it around and finds his stride down the backstretch of the season and brings that value back up so we can formulate a trade this offseason with him as the centerpiece for a true 2nd option to Wemby.

[RC_Drunkford]

I don't think he's being asked, I think he's just convinced himself this is what he needs to do.

Overall, his trajectory is crazy. Underrecruited. Overachiever. Came in as a defensive player with seeds of an offensive game. Now he's a chucker. That's wild.

I don't think he has low bbq; it's way better than Keldon, the problem is he CHOOSES to play this way.

Keldon wants to be a smart team player that wins, but it's just not there.

it‘s not that he chooses to play that way, it’s that the coaches tell him to play that way. Mitch just said in his postgame interview that he only gets on Devin when he is passing up shots.

[BatManu20]

With CP3 and Wemby on the team his shot selection shouldn't be so bad...

You could see CP3's frustration last night with this team. It's been more apparent lately with these losses lately. He's tired of mentoring these young scrubs. Not saying it'll happen, but also wouldn't be surprised if he's shipped off by the deadline tbh.

[SpurSpike]

Spurs failed Vassell by giving him a big contract that he hadn't shown that he deserved and because of that contract they felt they had to play him as the #2. I said it was an overpay the second the news broke, he was not consistent or healthy enough to warrant the gamble but many here disagreed. I guess there is still time for him to turn things around but his recent regression is not encouraging.

[spurraider21]

You could see CP3's frustration last night with this team. It's been more apparent lately with these losses lately. He's tired of mentoring these young scrubs. Not saying it'll happen, but also wouldn't be surprised if he's shipped off by the deadline tbh.
CP3 has actually poopped off last 2 games and the rest of the team, including wemby, has let him down

[BatManu20]

CP3 has actually poopped off last 2 games and the rest of the team, including wemby, has let him down

Agreed. He got tired of watching the youngins shit the bed and decided to take over at times. But he's still 40. Can't do it for long stretches. I imagine there's definitely a market for him though. One of these contenders would probably love to add him to their bench unit tbh. OKC comes to mind with their backup PG Ajay Mitchell being a bit underwhelming this season. Cason Wallace too tbh, though he starts for them sometimes with Caruso being in and out of the lineup with that hip injury. Either way, CP3 would be a great addition to their bench unit and they have plenty of draft capital to spare.

[KingKev]

Spurs failed Vassell by giving him a big contract that he hadn't shown that he deserved and because of that contract they felt they had to play him as the #2. I said it was an overpay the second the news broke, he was not consistent or healthy enough to warrant the gamble but many here disagreed. I guess there is still time for him to turn things around but his recent regression is not encouraging.

I’ll echo this. We are all Products of our environment and DV’s is that of tanking. Dejounte didn’t get the green light till his AS Season. DV had it much earlier and off the rip. I always saw guys like himself and Keldon as players you draft, develop and sell high on. But these two aren’t White or Dejounte; both of their games are seriously flawed and now have little to no value.

[scott]

I’ll echo this. We are all Products of our environment and DV’s is that of tanking. Dejounte didn’t get the green light till his AS Season. DV had it much earlier and off the rip. I always saw guys like himself and Keldon as players you draft, develop and sell high on. But these two aren’t White or Dejounte; both of their games are seriously flawed and now have little to no value.

I find it fascinating that I think this Board generally adheres to the ideology that players who put up good stats on bad teams aren't players we should go after... but at the same time this Board generally overrates its own players who put up good stats on bad teams (and, perhaps more importantly, see their stats decline as the team improves).

[Kevin]

Spurs fans have forgotten what multi-dimensional players look like. DJM had defense, size, plus rebounding with PG skills. White had defense, PG skills, decent three ball, high IQ. Guys like Keldon(scoring) Dev (shooting) and Tre (play making) Sochan (defense) are mostly one dimensional players.

After a nice start Castle is looking more and more one dimensional with mostly defense. Once opposing players figure out guy cant score his play making abilities quickly vanish because they don't respect his shot and dare him to shoot.

[poopbox]

Worst shooting season of his career so far, and 4 games in January he's hitting 23% from 3.

Dunc'd On had a stat over the weekend about Vassell having the 10th hardest shot diet in the league. Clearly he's being asked to do too much

The shooting slump I hope will turn around, but he should be put in plays where he can move into a shot off the catch rather than the "here's the ball now dribble dribble dribble into a midrange or worse" offense they have been doing

Most of his hard shots are his own fault because he doesn't know when to shoot vs when to pass and just doesn't know how to create space for himself in general.

[Dejounte]

exstatic is bumping random threads with no context behind it. He probably would have found this one and had no idea why I created it, so might as well bump it