It boils down to: PATFO whiffed on the 2020/2021/2022 drafts

[spursistan]

Their failure during those years to come away with anything resembling a reliable second or third option-- a dynamic three dimensional scorer & rim-pressuring dribble driver-- is the root cause of this predicament.

Vassel & Sochan-- our touted core pieces, not to speak of Branham and Wesley-- are unplayable flotsam for the likes of Boston and OKC, and it is no coincidence that even this flawed team barely misses a beat without them. Time to fire up the trade machine..

[spursistan]

I know the draft options weren't all that enticing, but the cupboard looks empty in prospective playoffs rotational talent..The days of turning the 29th/30th picks into borderline All-Stars/ elite role players seem well and truly over..

[Mugen]

BWrong baby

Primo was such a horrible reach.

but man 2022 was really bad. To think they could have Jalen Williams and another rotation piece to basically just Sochan is depressing :lol

[KobesAchilles]

I actually disagree with this statement to a degree. Besides Primo over Sengun (which this idiot right here was clearly able to see was the far superior player) I don’t think we whiffed at all with our players. I think Vassell and Sochan were the correct picks. Long post ahead. Sorry

I think our player development is just absolute shit though. Funny because it used to be world renowned, but after losing people to other teams or just other organizations catching up to us, we are behind the 8-ball when it comes to developing players.

And my main gripe about it is that we don’t have clear tangible goals for our fucking players and instead just wing it. Tangible goals for Vassell: stay healthy, hit open shots, learn the defensive scheme, and play hard nose defense. That’s it. I don’t want him creating his own shot. I don’t want him running pick n rolls. I don’t want him taking step backs. I want him to focus on learning the game and learning a simple role. That’s it. He’s a role player. Give him role player responsibilities from the get go. Nowhere in Vassells development should he have EVER averaged 16 shots a game. That’s MC shit and he isn’t a MC player. He’s a role player. But we tried to Kawhi him and rushed the whole fucking process. Vassell has nobody (and the rock means nobody) to learn from other than DDR on how to be a shooting guard in the league and I love DDR as a person but that’s not who i wanted Vassell to learn the game from. Ideally it should’ve been Danny. Or even hire Big Balls Beli as an assistant coach. Someone who knows the game from a role player status.

And Sochan was all kinds of fucked up. Some idiot decided it would be a good idea to play him as PG. Another idiot agreed and actually played him as PG. Lots of idiots here praised how much that helped his development and bc we are run like Sacramento Kings, we ruined a pretty sure fire prospect. Sochan was known as a hustle role player with instincts to rebound and play hard nose defense. It’s really hard to fuck up that type of prospect. Except we did. Bc again we tried to MC Sochan for no reason. It was just a stupid decision and a waste of a year for his development. People complain that Sochans numbers look good bc he gets a lot of open looks and dunks from Wemby. But that’s exactly how we should use him. All Sochan had to do for development was again simple shit. Learn the defensive system, play hard on defense, hustle like a maniac, and pick and choose your opportunities on offense. Then you add a corner 3 to his game. That’s it. Just the corner 3. And then in like year 5 you can add some secondary play making opportunities. But instead of they just presented everything to him at once and said here you go, be a PG but we wont sign an actual veteran PG to teach you how to become one. We wont sign any veterans at all to teach you any aspect of the game. Hell we wont even stay on one position for you to learn. Here’s a ball and there’s the hoop. Good luck.

At the end of the day, it isn’t that our players are stupid. I mean they are, but it’s bc we are a stupid organization who just believes well Pop can do everything by himself. We don’t need high level Assitant Coaches. We don’t need smart savvy veterans who know the system. Pop complained about the kids not knowing the old system. Well did he sign any of the vet players who played in our system To teach them? Nope. We are the Sacramento Kings of the NBA and frankly I’m sick of it

[scott]

Great post, KobesAchilles. I can't believe we've dethroned the Sacramento Kings as the Sacramento Kings of the NBA LOL

It's easy to say we should have taken Sengun, Hali and JWill... but what would those players be with the exact organizational flaws in regards to development? We're lucky that Wemby is just naturally gifted enough to overcome this shit, but honestly the same criticisms apply (see: How We Failed Wemby, and How We Can Fix It).

It's easy to say that without Wemby we'd be the worst team in the league... but without CP3 and Barnes we might still be the worst team in the league. It's amazing what having two competent, but not even all that great, vets can do.

Maybe someone will hit up Brian Wright's pager while he's on his ski trip and tell him there is work to do.

[objective]

Their scouting comes across as strange to me. Yes in past drafts I killed them for Primo over Sengun, then the next year pre-draft identified Jalen Williams as the real player prospect people were pretending or imagining Primo was. But whatever.

Take the last draft. Everyone pretty much, including me, has now come around on Castle at least being a reasonable pick if not a great choice. But at least reasonable and that's fine. But what's strange are the stories the Spurs put out about how they had a scout at EVERY Castle practice and game. Like, that's cool and all, but you knew there was a fair chance of an extra first from Toronto and the second round ... After you've made up your mind that Castle is awesome, maybe go scout other players in person? Were you really going to learn that much or need to see every single practice?

Because while I know people are loving the idea of the Milwaukee pick and swaps of 30 and 31 because Minnesota is looking mid and Edwards is squawking ... I'm not forgetting that moving away from #8 is just as much about being certain no one available could improve this team just as much as it was about the expected but not guaranteed future Wemby team that will need cheap talent and the Minnesota deal could fit the bill.

Was there no one else to improve this roster or did the front office not scout thoroughly, partially because they couldn't take their eyes off Castle?

[rankingtear]

I would give them a pass and chalk it up to COVID restriction during 20-22 seasons. Optimisictally in 2 years you could say that from 22-24 draft they have built the foundation of an all time defensive team.

[LeBowen]

I actually disagree with this statement to a degree. Besides Primo over Sengun (which this idiot right here was clearly able to see was the far superior player) I don’t think we whiffed at all with our players. I think Vassell and Sochan were the correct picks. Long post ahead. Sorry

I think our player development is just absolute shit though. Funny because it used to be world renowned, but after losing people to other teams or just other organizations catching up to us, we are behind the 8-ball when it comes to developing players.

And my main gripe about it is that we don’t have clear tangible goals for our fucking players and instead just wing it. Tangible goals for Vassell: stay healthy, hit open shots, learn the defensive scheme, and play hard nose defense. That’s it. I don’t want him creating his own shot. I don’t want him running pick n rolls. I don’t want him taking step backs. I want him to focus on learning the game and learning a simple role. That’s it. He’s a role player. Give him role player responsibilities from the get go. Nowhere in Vassells development should he have EVER averaged 16 shots a game. That’s MC shit and he isn’t a MC player. He’s a role player. But we tried to Kawhi him and rushed the whole fucking process. Vassell has nobody (and the rock means nobody) to learn from other than DDR on how to be a shooting guard in the league and I love DDR as a person but that’s not who i wanted Vassell to learn the game from. Ideally it should’ve been Danny. Or even hire Big Balls Beli as an assistant coach. Someone who knows the game from a role player status.

And Sochan was all kinds of fucked up. Some idiot decided it would be a good idea to play him as PG. Another idiot agreed and actually played him as PG. Lots of idiots here praised how much that helped his development and bc we are run like Sacramento Kings, we ruined a pretty sure fire prospect. Sochan was known as a hustle role player with instincts to rebound and play hard nose defense. It’s really hard to fuck up that type of prospect. Except we did. Bc again we tried to MC Sochan for no reason. It was just a stupid decision and a waste of a year for his development. People complain that Sochans numbers look good bc he gets a lot of open looks and dunks from Wemby. But that’s exactly how we should use him. All Sochan had to do for development was again simple shit. Learn the defensive system, play hard on defense, hustle like a maniac, and pick and choose your opportunities on offense. Then you add a corner 3 to his game. That’s it. Just the corner 3. And then in like year 5 you can add some secondary play making opportunities. But instead of they just presented everything to him at once and said here you go, be a PG but we wont sign an actual veteran PG to teach you how to become one. We wont sign any veterans at all to teach you any aspect of the game. Hell we wont even stay on one position for you to learn. Here’s a ball and there’s the hoop. Good luck.

At the end of the day, it isn’t that our players are stupid. I mean they are, but it’s bc we are a stupid organization who just believes well Pop can do everything by himself. We don’t need high level Assitant Coaches. We don’t need smart savvy veterans who know the system. Pop complained about the kids not knowing the old system. Well did he sign any of the vet players who played in our system To teach them? Nope. We are the Sacramento Kings of the NBA and frankly I’m sick of it


Great post, you pinpointed the biggest issue, developing players out of their projected roles.
I actually think player development for limited role players is fine.
Players with a defined role like Tre, Champagnie or even Bassey are doing fine considering their abilities.

Issues start when they try to develop them into something more, like you described.
Trying to develop Keldon and Vassell into something more was fine because we were tanking, and who knows, every once in a while one of those role players explodes and exceeds all expectations.
Devin and Keldon didn't, which is fine.
But what's not fine is that they're still developing them as if they're going to be complete offensive weapons at some point.
They had to be sat down and explained that they're not main characters, not even close to it and that if they're to have a successful career with the Spurs they had to take a step back on offense and improve on defense.

As for Sochan, they always had this weird "I can fix him" mentality and an obsession to develop fundamentally flawed players into something more.
I was the biggest critic of Jeremy this summer because he made no improvements from first to second year, mostly due to point guard experiment.
At the start of this season he made me change my mind, he played exactly in the way you described his ideal development, but over the past month he reverted back into last season's Sochan.

Drafting Castle was fine because it's such a horrible class, but I'm honestly sick of all these "he'll be great if he develops his shot" prospects. I'd rather not draft anyone than have another non-shooter on the roster next season.
Another nephew isn't happening, get over it.

Wrote about coaching after the Bulls game, I just refuse to believe that NBA team's coaching staff doesn't see the things even casual fans see and self-sabotages themselves in most games out of ignorance.
I'd honestly like to see a completely new coaching staff. We need an experienced head coach who's going to bring like 5 of his people in. Too bad Pop didn't want to step down while there were great coaches available and decided he prefers dying on the job.
Now there's noone who would surely be an improvement.

Also, there are no more excuses for Brian Wright.
Great salesman, got the most out of our mediocre outgoing assets, but his hoarding tendencies are actively hurting the team.
The team just isn't functional without a legit backup big, not having one hurts everyone's development.
Having 13 FRPs, 4 FRP swaps, 18 SRPs and not using any to get a backup big is just atrocious.
We're probably not making the play-in, but if we do miss out by a couple of games it's going to be Wright's fault just because of backup big situation.
Even if he gets one, it should've been done months ago and we would've been way over .500 now.

[NASpurs]

In before Mr Bitch comes in and tells us that we shouldn't be "bitching" about our swing and a miss draft picks.

[RC_Drunkford]

our player development sucks? I mean just look at how we're getting Wemby ready for a physical game. This Spurs staff member is clearly stronger than Giannis and Brook Lopez :lol This is a good workout

1877183085323706784

[Light]

I actually disagree with this statement to a degree. Besides Primo over Sengun (which this idiot right here was clearly able to see was the far superior player) I don’t think we whiffed at all with our players. I think Vassell and Sochan were the correct picks. Long post ahead. Sorry

I think our player development is just absolute shit though. Funny because it used to be world renowned, but after losing people to other teams or just other organizations catching up to us, we are behind the 8-ball when it comes to developing players.

And my main gripe about it is that we don’t have clear tangible goals for our fucking players and instead just wing it. Tangible goals for Vassell: stay healthy, hit open shots, learn the defensive scheme, and play hard nose defense. That’s it. I don’t want him creating his own shot. I don’t want him running pick n rolls. I don’t want him taking step backs. I want him to focus on learning the game and learning a simple role. That’s it. He’s a role player. Give him role player responsibilities from the get go. Nowhere in Vassells development should he have EVER averaged 16 shots a game. That’s MC shit and he isn’t a MC player. He’s a role player. But we tried to Kawhi him and rushed the whole fucking process. Vassell has nobody (and the rock means nobody) to learn from other than DDR on how to be a shooting guard in the league and I love DDR as a person but that’s not who i wanted Vassell to learn the game from. Ideally it should’ve been Danny. Or even hire Big Balls Beli as an assistant coach. Someone who knows the game from a role player status.

And Sochan was all kinds of fucked up. Some idiot decided it would be a good idea to play him as PG. Another idiot agreed and actually played him as PG. Lots of idiots here praised how much that helped his development and bc we are run like Sacramento Kings, we ruined a pretty sure fire prospect. Sochan was known as a hustle role player with instincts to rebound and play hard nose defense. It’s really hard to fuck up that type of prospect. Except we did. Bc again we tried to MC Sochan for no reason. It was just a stupid decision and a waste of a year for his development. People complain that Sochans numbers look good bc he gets a lot of open looks and dunks from Wemby. But that’s exactly how we should use him. All Sochan had to do for development was again simple shit. Learn the defensive system, play hard on defense, hustle like a maniac, and pick and choose your opportunities on offense. Then you add a corner 3 to his game. That’s it. Just the corner 3. And then in like year 5 you can add some secondary play making opportunities. But instead of they just presented everything to him at once and said here you go, be a PG but we wont sign an actual veteran PG to teach you how to become one. We wont sign any veterans at all to teach you any aspect of the game. Hell we wont even stay on one position for you to learn. Here’s a ball and there’s the hoop. Good luck.

At the end of the day, it isn’t that our players are stupid. I mean they are, but it’s bc we are a stupid organization who just believes well Pop can do everything by himself. We don’t need high level Assitant Coaches. We don’t need smart savvy veterans who know the system. Pop complained about the kids not knowing the old system. Well did he sign any of the vet players who played in our system To teach them? Nope. We are the Sacramento Kings of the NBA and frankly I’m sick of it

Vassell did have role player responsibilities from the get go. It wasn't until the team got rid of everyone to tank for Wemby that his role expanded (and switched from SF to SG). Who on that '22-'23 team should've taken the most shots, if not him or Keldon? IIRC, there were people suggesting he should be in the running for MIP that year until he got hurt. Then in his 4th year, he tried to expand his playmaking with Wemby, shot creation, and improve his rim pressures. For all his flaws (and supposed bad development), this is his first year taking a step back statistically.

The point Sochan experiment lasted roughly 20 games, so its negative impact is overblown, imo. Why sign a vet PG to mentor him (especially w/ Devonte' Graham on the team) when it was always a temporary move? The goal of his development last year was to take advantage of smaller players teams tried to hide on him. He had varying success doing so, but not a bad strategy overall. He also improved his 3pt % on higher volume. IF his 3pt % made a similar tick up this year, along with his other improvements, are we still having the same conversation about him?

I agree that lack of development has been an issue overall... this team would look so much better if Makai was the legit three level scorer some hoped he could be. But I also think it's easier to draft and develop players into specific roles/skillsets once you have your foundational piece(s) and know what those roles are. We went from "get rid of everyone except Wemby" last year, to now being able to point out two to three player types that could propel the team into the playoffs, if added.

My main issue is the team still has an "anyone on the team can score/initiate the offense" mentality. It irks me to hear players claim they have a deep team and that any player can go off on any given night. Imo, that approach just leads to the ball being in the wrong player's hands during critical moments of the game; whether it be late game scenarios or during momentum swings. It also excuses players not named Wemby for not producing consistently.

[poopbox]

I know the draft options weren't all that enticing, but the cupboard looks empty in prospective playoffs rotational talent..The days of turning the 29th/30th picks into borderline All-Stars/ elite role players seem well and truly over..

Right...because all of the people who were that good a player development...don't work for the Spurs anymore.

One of the talking points around the spurs is their "player development", which just isn't true anymore. It's name brand only. Almost none of the actual humans who worked with the players and developed them are in the building for the Spurs anymore. Over the last 4 years almost none of our young players have improved in anything.

[ffadicted]

You're probably right in a vacuum, but if we make better moves in those drafts it's almost certain that we don't get Wemby, so it's a pretty big moot point. It's what we do from here with our draft capital. Clearly we havn't been shown to draft well lately, so unlike most, I'm down for moving the capital + players for some proven pieces this year/this offseason. I think outside of Wemby and CP3 (unless he wants to, gotta honor the gentleman agreement otherwise no vets will come to us in the future), everyone should be in play.

[LeBowen]

You're probably right in a vacuum, but if we make better moves in those drafts it's almost certain that we don't get Wemby, so it's a pretty big moot point.

It's not a moot point because it shows that the front office isn't capable of making difficult decisions.
It's impossible to have a perfect draft record, but not knowing when it's time to pull the plug on a player is the issue.
We could've easily had another FRP for Keldon during his 22ppg tank commander season, there were plenty of teams fooled by it. He's even an Olympic gold medalist.


I think outside of Wemby and CP3 (unless he wants to, gotta honor the gentleman agreement otherwise no vets will come to us in the future), everyone should be in play.

Castle shouldn't be in play because trading away a rookie after a couple of months is a bad look for future drafts, but others should definitely be available.
The issue is that by now everyone realized they're all awful to mediocre and they won't be worth much.

For example last season and even in the summer before they got Atkinson there was a lot of noise about Mitchell and Garland being incompatible.
Devin still had a lot of value around the league, our coaching staff and GM had to be aware he's not actually the guy most people thought he was.
We could've traded Devin and in my opinion not that many assets for Garland.

Or we could've easily had Markkanen with Hawks picks which some of us wanted to do, but 90% of the fanbase was screaming about golden tickets that will surely be top5 in the lottery.
Markkanen did decide to stay in Utah, but if the offer was right there's zero doubt Aigne would've cashed him in.
And so on. Most good teams these days are good because they found a legit player or two when their value was low. Our front office does that with reclamation projects like Champagnie, but not with potential all-star level player.

[TrainOfThought5]

Right...because all of the people who were that good a player development...don't work for the Spurs anymore.

One of the talking points around the spurs is their "player development", which just isn't true anymore. It's name brand only. Almost none of the actual humans who worked with the players and developed them are in the building for the Spurs anymore. Over the last 4 years almost none of our young players have improved in anything.

this is what it really boils down to.

[quentin_compson]

You're probably right in a vacuum, but if we make better moves in those drafts it's almost certain that we don't get Wemby ...

People keep bringing up this argument, but after tanking in 22/23, the Spurs got Wemby, a clear cut generational talent. And despite him having a better rookie season than anyone could have had any right to expect, the Spurs won 22 games in 23/24, exactly the same amount as the season before. So that kind of math just doesn't track ...

[LeBowen]

People keep bringing up this argument, but after tanking in 22/23, the Spurs got Wemby, a clear cut generational talent. And despite him having a better rookie season than anyone could have had any right to expect, the Spurs won 22 games in 23/24, exactly the same amount as the season before. So that kind of math just doesn't track ...

Not even 22 with supposed second, third and fourt best player because they sat in those final few weeks of the season, Spurs won 4 games without them.
Devin played more than 30 minutes in just 3 wins last season. Enough said.

[thOOdee]

People keep bringing up this argument, but after tanking in 22/23, the Spurs got Wemby, a clear cut generational talent. And despite him having a better rookie season than anyone could have had any right to expect, the Spurs won 22 games in 23/24, exactly the same amount as the season before. So that kind of math just doesn't track ...

Agree with this, however, if there was an option to go back in time and correct any of the previous draft/staff mistakes mentioned, when it comes down to it I don't think any one here on this forum would change a thing if it meant increase risk of losing wemby. I think landing wemby allowed this organization a pass for the meanwhile and focus should be on the decisions made from then on out. So far Castle has been a plus. Player development however is another story.

[Davidicus]

OP may be 100% right, but at the exact same time if PATFO was “better”, we wouldn’t get Wemby.

Guys, we got Wemby because 2 seasons ago we were one of the WORST teams in the league. Plain and simple. We want to have our cake and eat it too. The pieces we got (DV KJ Sochan) are just not THAT good. They’re not moving the needle towards wins. And that’s what lead to Wemby. Just because now Wemby is a top 5-10 player doesn’t mean these guys are going to take huge leaps outside of who they are.

Let’s look at the reality of the situation. We have a very young superstar who is way ahead of schedule. A very old yet talented passer who we just added this year. And a bunch of B- players. Castle and Sochan have a brighter future, the rest have plateaued.

If anything the Dejounte trade needs to be commended. It got us a potential GOAT, and some extra FRPs. Or go further back, thank you Kawhi for showing your true colors. That also got us a potential GOAT, and more FRPs.

Any other complaining pre-Wemby lacks perspective and is therefore moot. Post-Wemby: PATFO made the right pick with Castle. They brought in 2 amazing vets, 1 on his own free will with no rings, to teach our young guys. I’ll be keeping an eye on what’s to come in the offseason.

[Dex]

Not trying to make excuses, but I think the injuries have just finally caught up with Vassell. He doesn't have the same athleticism or spring that he used to so he's slow on the defensive side of the ball, and his shots don't seem to have legs under them anymore.

I've noticed he developed a tendency to crouch and lean forward on his three-point attempts, almost like he is forcing it towards the basket. And his patented mid-range seems to come up short an awful lot. The form is there and the shots look soft, but still not finding the threads.

Yes, he still has good stretches here and there...but I'm no longer counting on him becoming the next Rudy Gay or anything like that.

[poopbox]

I actually disagree with this statement to a degree. Besides Primo over Sengun (which this idiot right here was clearly able to see was the far superior player) I don’t think we whiffed at all with our players. I think Vassell and Sochan were the correct picks. Long post ahead. Sorry

I think our player development is just absolute shit though. Funny because it used to be world renowned, but after losing people to other teams or just other organizations catching up to us, we are behind the 8-ball when it comes to developing players.

And my main gripe about it is that we don’t have clear tangible goals for our fucking players and instead just wing it. Tangible goals for Vassell: stay healthy, hit open shots, learn the defensive scheme, and play hard nose defense. That’s it. I don’t want him creating his own shot. I don’t want him running pick n rolls. I don’t want him taking step backs. I want him to focus on learning the game and learning a simple role. That’s it. He’s a role player. Give him role player responsibilities from the get go. Nowhere in Vassells development should he have EVER averaged 16 shots a game. That’s MC shit and he isn’t a MC player. He’s a role player. But we tried to Kawhi him and rushed the whole fucking process. Vassell has nobody (and the rock means nobody) to learn from other than DDR on how to be a shooting guard in the league and I love DDR as a person but that’s not who i wanted Vassell to learn the game from. Ideally it should’ve been Danny. Or even hire Big Balls Beli as an assistant coach. Someone who knows the game from a role player status.

And Sochan was all kinds of fucked up. Some idiot decided it would be a good idea to play him as PG. Another idiot agreed and actually played him as PG. Lots of idiots here praised how much that helped his development and bc we are run like Sacramento Kings, we ruined a pretty sure fire prospect. Sochan was known as a hustle role player with instincts to rebound and play hard nose defense. It’s really hard to fuck up that type of prospect. Except we did. Bc again we tried to MC Sochan for no reason. It was just a stupid decision and a waste of a year for his development. People complain that Sochans numbers look good bc he gets a lot of open looks and dunks from Wemby. But that’s exactly how we should use him. All Sochan had to do for development was again simple shit. Learn the defensive system, play hard on defense, hustle like a maniac, and pick and choose your opportunities on offense. Then you add a corner 3 to his game. That’s it. Just the corner 3. And then in like year 5 you can add some secondary play making opportunities. But instead of they just presented everything to him at once and said here you go, be a PG but we wont sign an actual veteran PG to teach you how to become one. We wont sign any veterans at all to teach you any aspect of the game. Hell we wont even stay on one position for you to learn. Here’s a ball and there’s the hoop. Good luck.

At the end of the day, it isn’t that our players are stupid. I mean they are, but it’s bc we are a stupid organization who just believes well Pop can do everything by himself. We don’t need high level Assitant Coaches. We don’t need smart savvy veterans who know the system. Pop complained about the kids not knowing the old system. Well did he sign any of the vet players who played in our system To teach them? Nope. We are the Sacramento Kings of the NBA and frankly I’m sick of it

I agree 100% and I will take it a step further. The reason the Spurs end up having to have role players try and do stuff they clearly can't, is because they are not big players in free agency and trades, so they have absolutely no way to bring in the types of players who have those skillsets, thus forcing them to try and make their players learn skillsets that are beyond them. The knicks said "OG is hurt alot we can't rely on him to make it fully through the playoffs guarding the other teams best perimeter player so fuck it let's just trade all our pieces in for Bridges that way we have two instead of one." The Spurs say "we never do big trades and we don't want to overpay for really good players so let's just keep giving the ball to Devin and try to make him a dynamic scoring threat even though he doesn't really have any of the tools to be a dynamic scoring threat".

[Strategic]

Trying to think of any substantial player development since the Timmy, Tony and Manu days. It really looks like those 3 were the last player developers in south Texas.

[LeBowen]

Trying to think of any substantial player development since the Timmy, Tony and Manu days. It really looks like those 3 were the last player developers in south Texas.

Can't say that Derrick and Dejounte didn't develop nicely.
One thing I always wonder about is Derrick's shooting. He was a career 34% 3pt shooter before his first summer with Boston.
At 39% since while almost doubling the volume. That has to be a red flag when it comes to Spurs development staff.

[Kevin]

Keldon was a very good pick for being selected 29th as was Tre Jones at 41. Even so KJ and Tre were drafted in 2019/2020.

Wemby doesn't count because every FO in the NBA takes him first.

Spurs draft god era started in 1999 with Manu and ended in 2017 with Derrick White. People need to stop living in the past.

[Seventyniner]

Can't say that Derrick and Dejounte didn't develop nicely.
One thing I always wonder about is Derrick's shooting. He was a career 34% 3pt shooter before his first summer with Boston.
At 39% since while almost doubling the volume. That has to be a red flag when it comes to Spurs development staff.

Development staff is one possible reason for the improvement, but there could be others. Is there a way to look up how open his shots have been with each team?

It's also possible, and highly likely imo, that Boston does a much better job of creating and running offensive sets than the Spurs. That would be an indictment of the coaches, not the player development staff.

[Mr. Body]

Primo over Sengun is inexcusable. But pretty much the entire NBA passed on Sengun. Even SpursTalk's dreamboat Presti passed on him -- nope, he drafted him to benefit the Houston Rockets. Oops.

Branham and Wesley were whiffs, but it is not hard to think they could make it somewhere else, just not on the Spurs.

You're entirely wrong about Sochan, who is one of the top five players in his draft. Vassell is good, even if he's not going to be the volume scorer we want.

And you fail to see a pick-up like Julian Champagnie.

Where these sorts of analyses go wrong:

1. No team gets them all right. Even dreamboat Sam Presti has fucked up A TON. You just forget about them because you want to forget about them and are secretly Thunder fans.

2. Look at who was available at those picks. Really look. I mean, honestly, look. When Primo was picked, the obvious alternative was Sengun. The other was Trey Murphy, whose advanced metrics were pretty poor tbh and he didn't play a position of need. Otherwise there was no one consensus in that range who was left. It was a very weak draft at that point. For the Branham/Wesley draft, the draft was also pretty much over at that point, other than some stragglers.

3. You always mess up thinking things like Primo was never going to be good. We don't know. He had flashes (wrong way to put it). Players develop in different ways.

To me, the Spurs drafted and developed late picks like Kyle Anderson, Derrick White, Dejounte Murray, drafted Tre Jones, got Sochan completely right, did well with Vassell, got Stephon Castle completely right, and picked up Julian Champagnie and to a lesser extent Charles Bassey. They screwed up with Primo and tried out guards in Branham and Wesley in a draft that was very thin at that point.

That's it. They still need a few pieces but they're still rebuilding and the draft history is nowhere near as bad as you think. I know you get your jollies off OKC, but again they're only where they are because Kawhi Leonard forced LAC to trade them Shai and a big wad of picks and they got lucky that they sucked bad enough to get Chet.

[spursistan]

This should be a total embarrassment for this franchise. And it is a reflection of how a culture of losing has set in over the past half decade. Wemby has played over 100 games for us living up and even surpassing his generational hype, and yet we are still stuck in the depths of mediocrity. Not sure when will PATFO re-evaluate their precious "young core".

https://x.com/automaticnba/status/1877196335566242041

[CorrectCrusader]

Fire Brian Wrong

[Ni-G]

When you drafting shooters that are even worse shooters then non shooters... https://x.com/AirAlamo/status/1877371891431694360

[TimDunkem]

This should be a total embarrassment for this franchise. And it is a reflection of how a culture of losing has set in over the past half decade. Wemby has played over 100 games for us living up and even surpassing his generational hype, and yet we are still stuck in the depths of mediocrity. Not sure when will PATFO re-evaluate their precious "young core".

https://x.com/automaticnba/status/1877196335566242041
I was going to post this too. lol Even the Wizards have done it, man...Embarrassing display by our FO for the last 4-5 years.

[Mr. Body]

When you drafting shooters that are even worse shooters then non shooters... https://x.com/AirAlamo/status/1877371891431694360

Exactly why we should have moved up to get Reed Sheppard.

[RC_Drunkford]

„It wouldn’t be fair to not let the other teams win some games. That‘s not who we are.“ :pop:

[spursistan]

I was going to post this too. lol Even the Wizards have done it, man...Embarrassing display by our FO for the last 4-5 years.
I wish RC Buford or Brian Wright were on twitter; I would be spamming their mentions/inbox with that scandalous stat. This is what has become of the once proud Spurs franchise?

I am so ready to take a wrecking ball to this roster. We have seen enough, tbh..

[RC_Drunkford]

The „bigger than basketball“ mantra has turned this franchise into an organization that’s content with losing. Det culture

[vy65]

My guy Luka Samanic being criminally overlooked

[poopbox]

Primo over Sengun is inexcusable. But pretty much the entire NBA passed on Sengun. Even SpursTalk's dreamboat Presti passed on him -- nope, he drafted him to benefit the Houston Rockets. Oops.

Branham and Wesley were whiffs, but it is not hard to think they could make it somewhere else, just not on the Spurs.

You're entirely wrong about Sochan, who is one of the top five players in his draft. Vassell is good, even if he's not going to be the volume scorer we want.

And you fail to see a pick-up like Julian Champagnie.

Where these sorts of analyses go wrong:

1. No team gets them all right. Even dreamboat Sam Presti has fucked up A TON. You just forget about them because you want to forget about them and are secretly Thunder fans.

2. Look at who was available at those picks. Really look. I mean, honestly, look. When Primo was picked, the obvious alternative was Sengun. The other was Trey Murphy, whose advanced metrics were pretty poor tbh and he didn't play a position of need. Otherwise there was no one consensus in that range who was left. It was a very weak draft at that point. For the Branham/Wesley draft, the draft was also pretty much over at that point, other than some stragglers.

3. You always mess up thinking things like Primo was never going to be good. We don't know. He had flashes (wrong way to put it). Players develop in different ways.

To me, the Spurs drafted and developed late picks like Kyle Anderson, Derrick White, Dejounte Murray, drafted Tre Jones, got Sochan completely right, did well with Vassell, got Stephon Castle completely right, and picked up Julian Champagnie and to a lesser extent Charles Bassey. They screwed up with Primo and tried out guards in Branham and Wesley in a draft that was very thin at that point.

That's it. They still need a few pieces but they're still rebuilding and the draft history is nowhere near as bad as you think. I know you get your jollies off OKC, but again they're only where they are because Kawhi Leonard forced LAC to trade them Shai and a big wad of picks and they got lucky that they sucked bad enough to get Chet.

Sengun was picked 16th but "the entire nba passed on him" :lol

[spurraider21]

Primo over Sengun is inexcusable. But pretty much the entire NBA passed on Sengun. Even SpursTalk's dreamboat Presti passed on him -- nope, he drafted him to benefit the Houston Rockets. Oops.

Branham and Wesley were whiffs, but it is not hard to think they could make it somewhere else, just not on the Spurs.

You're entirely wrong about Sochan, who is one of the top five players in his draft. Vassell is good, even if he's not going to be the volume scorer we want.

And you fail to see a pick-up like Julian Champagnie.

Where these sorts of analyses go wrong:

1. No team gets them all right. Even dreamboat Sam Presti has fucked up A TON. You just forget about them because you want to forget about them and are secretly Thunder fans.

2. Look at who was available at those picks. Really look. I mean, honestly, look. When Primo was picked, the obvious alternative was Sengun. The other was Trey Murphy, whose advanced metrics were pretty poor tbh and he didn't play a position of need. Otherwise there was no one consensus in that range who was left. It was a very weak draft at that point. For the Branham/Wesley draft, the draft was also pretty much over at that point, other than some stragglers.

3. You always mess up thinking things like Primo was never going to be good. We don't know. He had flashes (wrong way to put it). Players develop in different ways.

To me, the Spurs drafted and developed late picks like Kyle Anderson, Derrick White, Dejounte Murray, drafted Tre Jones, got Sochan completely right, did well with Vassell, got Stephon Castle completely right, and picked up Julian Champagnie and to a lesser extent Charles Bassey. They screwed up with Primo and tried out guards in Branham and Wesley in a draft that was very thin at that point.

That's it. They still need a few pieces but they're still rebuilding and the draft history is nowhere near as bad as you think. I know you get your jollies off OKC, but again they're only where they are because Kawhi Leonard forced LAC to trade them Shai and a big wad of picks and they got lucky that they sucked bad enough to get Chet.
champagnie is the one guy who they actually developed as a role player... and he is doing well in his role

[TheChillFactor]

this is why i am in favor of trading SOME draft capital for a proven guy like Fox.

Yeah we have a ton of future picks but what are we going to do with another 6 or 7 Branhams and Wesleys??

[Mal]

this is why i am in favor of trading SOME draft capital for a proven guy like Fox.

Yeah we have a ton of future picks but what are we going to do with another 6 or 7 Branhams and Wesleys??

Of Juan Nunezs

[scott]

this is why i am in favor of trading SOME draft capital for a proven guy like Fox.

Yeah we have a ton of future picks but what are we going to do with another 6 or 7 Branhams and Wesleys??

Yes, we could trade for Fox or we could draft like 3 Branhams... but one of them might turn out to be great! Maybe even as good as Fox!

[kxs783kms]

They knew about Wemby for years. They had to let go of our best draft picks(*White,DM*) to be in the position to be able to draft Wemby. We had to suck at drafting. Why is no one understanding that? Now and going forward is what matters now that we've achieved that goal and Castle was/is a good start.

[vy65]

Can we start a FireJimmy thread?

[kxs783kms]

Imagine if we still had White, DM and DeRozan on this roster. We definitely wouldn't have Wemby right now, that's for sure.

[vy65]

Also, not taking Furphy at 30-whatever is looking really smart right about now. While 34% isn’t great, it is above team average as well as Sochan, Keldon, Branham and Vasselline

[scott]

They knew about Wemby for years. They had to let go of our best draft picks(*White,DM*) to be in the position to be able to draft Wemby. We had to suck at drafting. Why is no one understanding that? Now and going forward is what matters now that we've achieved that goal and Castle was/is a good start.

Because it's not really true?

Before landing the #1 pick and Paolo, Orlando drafted useful players Jalen Suggs and Franz Wagner. They didn't have to "suck" at those draft picks to still be in position to land Paolo. They just had to be bad enough on the court to put themselves in position for a little lottery luck. Similarly, the Spurs didn't need to "suck" at their 2023 draft pick in order to land #4 and take the right guy in the 2024 draft.

You are correct, however, that it was the right decision to move Derrick and DJM (our best draft picks, as you put it, who were developed by a different staff), and what matters now is what we do going forward.

I get the feeling that the Spurs FO feels like they're nailing it and everything is going to plan. From a 35,000 foot view, it's easy to understand why. We're a .500 team with our 2nd year Superstar 3rd in the NBA in actual EPM and 5th in Expected Wins (EW) added. There seems to be a lot of optimization that could take place, but maybe the FO doesn't see it that way. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

[spurraider21]

Mugen between this and the raiders cleaning house again... which is worse :lol

[Kevin]

I hope the FO has enough self awareness to know they owe almost all of their "success" to winning the Wemby lotto. Pure luck. Even they had even taken second in that lotto they would have probably ended up with Scoot who is looking like a mega bust.

[exstatic]

You're probably right in a vacuum, but if we make better moves in those drafts it's almost certain that we don't get Wemby, so it's a pretty big moot point. It's what we do from here with our draft capital. Clearly we havn't been shown to draft well lately, so unlike most, I'm down for moving the capital + players for some proven pieces this year/this offseason. I think outside of Wemby and CP3 (unless he wants to, gotta honor the gentleman agreement otherwise no vets will come to us in the future), everyone should be in play.

You’re really giving up on Castle halfway through his rookie year?

[exstatic]

Because it's not really true?

Before landing the #1 pick and Paolo, Orlando drafted useful players Jalen Suggs and Franz Wagner. They didn't have to "suck" at those draft picks to still be in position to land Paolo. They just had to be bad enough on the court to put themselves in position for a little lottery luck. Similarly, the Spurs didn't need to "suck" at their 2023 draft pick in order to land #4 and take the right guy in the 2024 draft.

You are correct, however, that it was the right decision to move Derrick and DJM (our best draft picks, as you put it, who were developed by a different staff), and what matters now is what we do going forward.

I get the feeling that the Spurs FO feels like they're nailing it and everything is going to plan. From a 35,000 foot view, it's easy to understand why. We're a .500 team with our 2nd year Superstar 3rd in the NBA in actual EPM and 5th in Expected Wins (EW) added. There seems to be a lot of optimization that could take place, but maybe the FO doesn't see it that way. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

DJ and DM were already into their extensions, fifth year players that would have had a larger effect on winning than Orlando’s previous two picks. DJ, by himself after DeRozan was jettisoned the previous summer, led us to a play in game.

[scott]

DJ and DM were already into their extensions, fifth year players that would have had a larger effect on winning than Orlando’s previous two picks. DJ, by himself after DeRozan was jettisoned the previous summer, led us to a play in game.

Agreed (and that's why I said as much in the following paragraph). However, the OP's premise that I was responding to stated that the Spurs needed to "suck" at drafting (presumably in 2020/2021/2022 since that is what this thread is about) in order to land Wemby, which is why I gave the example of Suggs and Franz. The Spurs didn't need to "suck" at drafting in order to land Wemby (and sure enough, some people have made a fair case in this thread that they didn't suck at drafting in that time frame).

[exstatic]

Agreed (and that's why I said as much in the following paragraph). However, the OP's premise that I was responding to stated that the Spurs needed to "suck" at drafting (presumably in 2020/2021/2022 since that is what this thread is about) in order to land Wemby, which is why I gave the example of Suggs and Franz. The Spurs didn't need to "suck" at drafting in order to land Wemby (and sure enough, some people have made a fair case in this thread that they didn't suck at drafting in that time frame).

Fair.

[Mr. Body]

Sengun was picked 16th but "the entire nba passed on him" :lol

Yeah, including your beloved OKC Thunder.

[Mugen]

Mugen (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15519) between this and the raiders cleaning house again... which is worse :lol

Definitely the Spurs tbh.

[Mugen]

In what universe is Sochan a top 5 player in a 2022 redraft tbh :lol

[scott]

In what universe is Sochan a top 5 player in a 2022 redraft tbh :lol

There were 58 players drafted in 2022. Of those, 6 (all SRPs) have never played in the NBA.

Of the remaining 52 players, Branham ranks #52 in VORP, Blake Wesley ranks #50 and Sochan ranks #44.

For those who prefer BPM, Wesley ranks #51, Branham #46, Sochan #31.

[spursistan]

Definitely the Spurs tbh.
As much as it sucks right now for the Spurs roster-wise, we still possess the ultimate trump card in this league: a generational superstar. We will likely never reach OKC or Boston current level of “stacked”, but prime Wemby should give us chance irrespective of the deficiencies on the roster..IMO They have 6-7 years window to figure this out (future coach, trade targets etc..) before it gets dicey,..

[Tyronn Lue]

There's a number of other non-playoff (and some playoff) caliber teams that would love the Spurs shitty drafting results.

[SouthernFried]

Their failure during those years to come away with anything resembling a reliable second or third option-- a dynamic three dimensional scorer & rim-pressuring dribble driver-- is the root cause of this predicament.

Vassel & Sochan-- our touted core pieces, not to speak of Branham and Wesley-- are unplayable flotsam for the likes of Boston and OKC, and it is no coincidence that even this flawed team barely misses a beat without them. Time to fire up the trade machine..

THIS

Regardless of what anyone else says. THIS.

Just add Rim Protection. Got none. Worse Defensive "TEAM" ever.

[slick'81]

What the hell is rc doing over there

[vy65]

There's a number of other non-playoff (and some playoff) caliber teams that would love the Spurs shitty drafting results.

For sure, including Saski Baskonia and the Windy City Bulls

[rankingtear]

There were 58 players drafted in 2022. Of those, 6 (all SRPs) have never played in the NBA.

Of the remaining 52 players, Branham ranks #52 in VORP, Blake Wesley ranks #50 and Sochan ranks #44.

For those who prefer BPM, Wesley ranks #51, Branham #46, Sochan #31.

Sochan is 4th in actual EPM in his class though this season. 11th in the past 4 draft classes. That is pretty good for a non drop big.

[Bruno]

Poor drafting in 2020-2022 is just a small part of why Spurs aren't a good team.

Since drafting Wemby, Spurs have done 10 trades. None of these trades was mainly about Spurs improving their team. Even in trades with Spurs getting back a player (Osman and Barnes), these were trades where the main incentive were future draft compensations.

In 2023 and 2024 offseasons, Spurs had over $20M in cap space and two room exceptions. They mainly use it to get future draft compensations instead of improving the team. Their only signing was Chris Paul to an one year contract.

In the 2023 and 2024 drafts, Spurs didn't even use all their picks. They traded away #33 in 2023, #8 in 2024 and use an early second round pick on a stashed player.

To sum up, Spurs are a team that isn't really trying to get better through trade and free agency. They even aren't using all opportunities given by the draft. Spurs aren't a good team because the front office isn't trying to make them a good team.

What we are currently seeing with Spurs is just a result of Spurs deciding to rebuild their team very slowly. As fans, we aren't in the driver seat and we have no choice other than being patient and hopping it will result in something great. Spurs taking 4/5 years to rebuild their team and ending with a so-so result would be quite a disaster given the generational talent Spurs luckily got (never forget that Spurs only had a 14% odd to get Wembanyama).

[exstatic]

Poor drafting in 2020-2022 is just a small part of why Spurs aren't a good team.

Since drafting Wemby, Spurs have done 10 trades. None of these trades was mainly about Spurs improving their team. Even in trades with Spurs getting back a player (Osman and Barnes), these were trades where the main incentive were future draft compensations.

In 2023 and 2024 offseasons, Spurs had over $20M in cap space and two room exceptions. They mainly use it to get future draft compensations instead of improving the team. Their only signing was Chris Paul to an one year contract.

In the 2023 and 2024 drafts, Spurs didn't even use all their picks. They traded away #33 in 2023, #8 in 2024 and use an early second round pick on a stashed player.

To sum up, Spurs are a team that isn't really trying to get better through trade and free agency. They even aren't using all opportunities given by the draft. Spurs aren't a good team because the front office isn't trying to make them a good team.

What we are currently seeing with Spurs is just a result of Spurs deciding to rebuild their team very slowly. As fans, we aren't in the driver seat and we have no choice other than being patient and hopping it will result in something great. Spurs taking 4/5 years to rebuild their team and ending with a so-so result would be quite a disaster given the generational talent Spurs luckily got (never forget that Spurs only had a 14% odd to get Wembanyama).

It’s not going to take 4-5 years. We’ll be a play in team this year, and a playoff team next year. We sold our cap space last summer because there wasn’t anyone who wasn’t super expensive that would help us, besides Chris Paul, and it was our last chance to do so. If you were upset by selling SRPs,it’s going to be a bumpy ride for you. That will continue. We have too many FRPs to onboard. There’s no way that more than one SRP will be selected and kept in any given draft.

[scott]

Poor drafting in 2020-2022 is just a small part of why Spurs aren't a good team.

Since drafting Wemby, Spurs have done 10 trades. None of these trades was mainly about Spurs improving their team. Even in trades with Spurs getting back a player (Osman and Barnes), these were trades where the main incentive were future draft compensations.

In 2023 and 2024 offseasons, Spurs had over $20M in cap space and two room exceptions. They mainly use it to get future draft compensations instead of improving the team. Their only signing was Chris Paul to an one year contract.

In the 2023 and 2024 drafts, Spurs didn't even use all their picks. They traded away #33 in 2023, #8 in 2024 and use an early second round pick on a stashed player.

To sum up, Spurs are a team that isn't really trying to get better through trade and free agency. They even aren't using all opportunities given by the draft. Spurs aren't a good team because the front office isn't trying to make them a good team.

What we are currently seeing with Spurs is just a result of Spurs deciding to rebuild their team very slowly. As fans, we aren't in the driver seat and we have no choice other than being patient and hopping it will result in something great. Spurs taking 4/5 years to rebuild their team and ending with a so-so result would be quite a disaster given the generational talent Spurs luckily got (never forget that Spurs only had a 14% odd to get Wembanyama).

Great post and I think you're 100% right. I think the FO likely feels they are exactly on track. I think it is fair of us fans to question them, but I think they're doing exactly what they set out to. They aren't going out and getting a backup C, or upgrading Keldon or Vassell right now, because making the play-in or the playoffs this year doesn't matter to them. That may be the right or wrong decision, but that's the one they've made it seems.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs family doesn't do divorces. They stick it out with their players as long as they can, and use alcohol to hide in denial from the reality. Or something like that.

[rankingtear]

Great post and I think you're 100% right. I think the FO likely feels they are exactly on track. I think it is fair of us fans to question them, but I think they're doing exactly what they set out to. They aren't going out and getting a backup C, or upgrading Keldon or Vassell right now, because making the play-in or the playoffs this year doesn't matter to them. That may be the right or wrong decision, but that's the one they've made it seems.

I think Wemby evolving so fast kinda makes it hard to commit big moves except for maybe the players that fit anywhere like the top 10 ones. The players you need for a more Jokic type Wemby his first year to this Giannis/KD type this year is much different. Mitch adress this with Devin having to adjust as Wemby evolves.

[poopbox]

It’s not going to take 4-5 years. We’ll be a play in team this year, and a playoff team next year. We sold our cap space last summer because there wasn’t anyone who wasn’t super expensive that would help us, besides Chris Paul, and it was our last chance to do so. If you were upset by selling SRPs,it’s going to be a bumpy ride for you. That will continue. We have too many FRPs to onboard. There’s no way that more than one SRP will be selected and kept in any given draft.

I believe the problem is the spurs have gotten to the point where the only way for them to really improve the team is to just overpay for players that will help us. Every team in the league has to overpay for good players. The Knicks are paying chronically injured OG damn near a max. The Grizzlies are playing their 3rd most important player, Banes, a straight up max. The Jazz are trying to be the worst team in the NBA and they literally paid Lauri a max this summer. Spurs are not going to ever get any really good players if they are not willing to pay the price that all other teams pay. Only way to avoid that is to hit on virtually every draft pick you have, and we know they not doing that.

[Brazil]

It boils down to: better draft those years no Wemby so Spurs FO get a A++ for their draft

[ffadicted]

You’re really giving up on Castle halfway through his rookie year?

You're right, and no I'm not. We can add him to that list.

[DAF86]

They really need to stop targetting non-shooting prospects for a while, tbh.

[KingKev]

PATFO needs to stop focusing on developing high character members of society and focus more on developing fking basketball players who can win.

This isn’t the boy scouts.

[Tyronn Lue]

PATFO needs to stop focusing on developing high character members of society and focus more on developing fking basketball players who can win.

This isn’t the boy scouts.
Developing the crowd at the AT&T center into more respectful people who won't boo an opposing player, that's the goal.

[jesterbobman]

2019, Samanic was a fail too. Keldon was OK production wise for a #29 pick, but he's paid more than his worth.

Vassell hasn't worked and has been legit bad this year, but he looked like a very solid bet to be a good player, given tools, defensive ability and length, and stats profile. I think the failure is more on player development, and moving to star profile shots and on ball responsibility much more than he should be.

Primo was dumb. Drafting young guys ahead of schedule is fine, but you want such a high ceiling that it's worth the risk (tools), and an age adjusted stats profile that suggests that they're going to be excellent (e.g, Fears this year looks the part, and his stats profile for a 18 year old is great). Primo didn't really hit either of those considerations to make pre-drafting seem logical.

2022, I think Sochan was a fine pick. Jalen Williams has obviously become the guy there, he was in contention (and some people did identify him), but he didn't look super obvious the whole time. He was a 21 year old wing with a 6BPM playing for Santa Clara who blew up at the combine and has really developed in OKC.
Sochan, as a decently athletic PF with some on ball skills, defensive versatility, productive in a do it all role, is an understandable pick. Shooting has been a real limit, and it might be that the shooting is a fatal flaw, or it could become less of an issue with more shooting in other roster spots.

Blake and Branham where upside swings on creation, betting on speed and off the dribble shooting. Hasn't worked. Really, not ideal / poor stats profiles (especially Blake).

The Spurs have had draft successes with shots in the dark on upside (Parker, Dejounte etc), hidden gem stats monster (George and Derrick), and seem to have swung more to trusting their gut, rather than a stats profile being a heavy consideration. I'd like them to move back towards a bit more stats focus on considerations of players. (so, Jase Richardson (Black Reed Sheppard, but mocked at 25 rather than 1) and Miles Byrd at the last 1st round pick we have / in the second at #40 or so would make me happy).

[exstatic]

2019, Samanic was a fail too. Keldon was OK production wise for a #29 pick, but he's paid more than his worth.

Vassell hasn't worked and has been legit bad this year, but he looked like a very solid bet to be a good player, given tools, defensive ability and length, and stats profile. I think the failure is more on player development, and moving to star profile shots and on ball responsibility much more than he should be.

Primo was dumb. Drafting young guys ahead of schedule is fine, but you want such a high ceiling that it's worth the risk (tools), and an age adjusted stats profile that suggests that they're going to be excellent (e.g, Fears this year looks the part, and his stats profile for a 18 year old is great). Primo didn't really hit either of those considerations to make pre-drafting seem logical.

2022, I think Sochan was a fine pick. Jalen Williams has obviously become the guy there, he was in contention (and some people did identify him), but he didn't look super obvious the whole time. He was a 21 year old wing with a 6BPM playing for Santa Clara who blew up at the combine and has really developed in OKC.
Sochan, as a decently athletic PF with some on ball skills, defensive versatility, productive in a do it all role, is an understandable pick. Shooting has been a real limit, and it might be that the shooting is a fatal flaw, or it could become less of an issue with more shooting in other roster spots.

Blake and Branham where upside swings on creation, betting on speed and off the dribble shooting. Hasn't worked. Really, not ideal / poor stats profiles (especially Blake).

The Spurs have had draft successes with shots in the dark on upside (Parker, Dejounte etc), hidden gem stats monster (George and Derrick), and seem to have swung more to trusting their gut, rather than a stats profile being a heavy consideration. I'd like them to move back towards a bit more stats focus on considerations of players. (so, Jase Richardson (Black Reed Sheppard, but mocked at 25 rather than 1) and Miles Byrd at the last 1st round pick we have / in the second at #40 or so would make me happy).

It’s never a fail when a #19 overall doesn’t pan out. The hit rate out that far is really low.

[kxs783kms]

Because it's not really true?

Before landing the #1 pick and Paolo, Orlando drafted useful players Jalen Suggs and Franz Wagner. They didn't have to "suck" at those draft picks to still be in position to land Paolo. They just had to be bad enough on the court to put themselves in position for a little lottery luck. Similarly, the Spurs didn't need to "suck" at their 2023 draft pick in order to land #4 and take the right guy in the 2024 draft.

You are correct, however, that it was the right decision to move Derrick and DJM (our best draft picks, as you put it, who were developed by a different staff), and what matters now is what we do going forward.

I get the feeling that the Spurs FO feels like they're nailing it and everything is going to plan. From a 35,000 foot view, it's easy to understand why. We're a .500 team with our 2nd year Superstar 3rd in the NBA in actual EPM and 5th in Expected Wins (EW) added. There seems to be a lot of optimization that could take place, but maybe the FO doesn't see it that way. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

You're right. Maybe I should have said we needed to suck as a team and not necessarily at drafting.

[Slippy]

Vassel is having a shooting slump not seen before from him. I mean he missing wide open 3s consistently. Great looks that from privious seasons he would mostly connect. 9 time out of 10. His defense of late has been great & what i expect.

Not ready to give up on him. This shooting slump is hurting the team & his game especially the close loses.

[ambchang]

I don’t have issues with the drafting. When looking back, KJ, Vassell, sochan and now castle all starts off great in the first year. They showed promise, they had certain traits that make them look like good decent young players, then for some reason they started being asked/directed to do things way outside of their capabilities, and they, understandably, struggle. Keldon is pretty much gone at this point, Vassell isn’t trending well at all, and sochan just started to suck after a promising start to the year because for some strange reasons he’s not doing what he was successful at doing. I’m worried with this developmental staff/coaching staff/ front office, the same thing will happen to castle.

Bassey and Manu had nothing going after showing some good flashes, Wesley actually showed some nba qualities and was then stuck at neutral. Brahma got worse by the day. The only one with any tangible improvements was champaigne, and that’s because he was just asked to shoot and defend.

Keep the roles simple and develop the players for Pete’s sake. Don’t try to turn them all into a bunch of multi skilled superstar players when they just aren’t those. They end up with a rusted and broken Swiss army knife where they can’t do anything right.

Don’t even get me started on the rotations. It’s like the coaches are actively trying to lose games …..

[Obstructed_View]

I don't have an issue with the draft picks for the most part. The Spurs tried to get guys at positions of need. Nobody could have known we would end up with people completely incapable of learning to shoot a basketball.

But many of you should realize now how big a deal it was to reach for Josh fucking Primo and what a massive fuckup it was to trade away pick number 8. The latter is a huge problem because the FO should have known about the lack of progress by the current players before drafting three guys who can't shoot and passing on Dalton Knecht for a 2031 draft pick.

[MannyIsGod]

Is this not the norm though? I mean yeah, OKC has hit some great picks, but man no one ever brings up Poku do they? Are not the majority of lottery picks misfires? I do think the Spurs have probably done worse than usual post Dejounte but I don't think they're all that far below the median NBA franchise.

[exstatic]

Is this not the norm though? I mean yeah, OKC has hit some great picks, but man no one ever brings up Poku do they? Are not the majority of lottery picks misfires? I do think the Spurs have probably done worse than usual post Dejounte but I don't think they're all that far below the median NBA franchise.

Or Ouseman Dieng. Or Giddey.

People here idolize OKC, yet they want us to trade our picks. OKC rarely does,and when they did, they aggregated 3->1. They have draft hits because they USE nearly all of their picks.

[J_Paco]

Draft positioning also plays a part in the caliber of prospect the Spurs have drafted. They've only drafted in the top 10 three times (Sochan, Wembanyama & Castle).

Ending up 'wasting' picks on Primo (prototypical self-creator) and Wieskamp (motion shooter/3-point specialist) definitely hurt the team a ton, but hopefully they can acquire those archetypes with all their upcoming 1st round picks.

[scott]

Is this not the norm though? I mean yeah, OKC has hit some great picks, but man no one ever brings up Poku do they? Are not the majority of lottery picks misfires? I do think the Spurs have probably done worse than usual post Dejounte but I don't think they're all that far below the median NBA franchise.

This is a good point and I think it illustrates:

1) not all picks are going to be winners
2) but you've got to develop the ones you "get right" properly

I don't think the Spurs have drafted talent any worse than typical, but they sure as hell haven't developed them very well. You can afford to fuck up the Poku's when you do the JWill's properly. It's a problem when you fuck them all up.

[SpursBills]

I think the reason why OKC is perceived to draft well isn't necessarily because they hit on an unusually high percentage of their picks, but rather because they've hit home runs on the picks that they did hit on. Dub and Chet being potential all-star/all-NBA caliber talents obviously changes the entire fortune of their team. Additionally, they've had more chances to hit because of the draft capital they've accumulated. So the degree of the "hit" matters from a perception standpoint as well. Otherwise if we were only counting the number of hits, Memphis would blow everyone away for hitting on so many of their second rounders and late first rounders that have turned into rotational or better players while really only missing on Ziaire Williams as a high profile draft pick.

Realistically, if a team hits a home run on 2 or more picks, the hard work is already done and it's not tough to build a contender for the next decade. Like imagine if the Spurs had the exact same drafting history and outcomes, except Devin Vassell happened to turn into Devin Booker, turning a single into a home run. All of a sudden, Wright would be a genius even if he busted his next 3 first rounders because the Spurs already have the bones of a decade-long contender.

[scott]

I think the reason why OKC is perceived to draft well isn't necessarily because they hit on an unusually high percentage of their picks, but rather because they've hit home runs on the picks that they did hit on. Dub and Chet being potential all-star/all-NBA caliber talents obviously changes the entire fortune of their team. Additionally, they've had more chances to hit because of the draft capital they've accumulated. So the degree of the "hit" matters from a perception standpoint as well. Otherwise if we were only counting the number of hits, Memphis would blow everyone away for hitting on so many of their second rounders and late first rounders that have turned into rotational or better players while really only missing on Ziaire Williams as a high profile draft pick.

Realistically, if a team hits a home run on 2 or more picks, the hard work is already done and it's not tough to build a contender for the next decade. Like imagine if the Spurs had the exact same drafting history and outcomes, except Devin Vassell happened to turn into Devin Booker, turning a single into a home run. All of a sudden, Wright would be a genius even if he busted his next 3 first rounders because the Spurs already have the bones of a decade-long contender.

It's the same thing that got PATFO the reputation of being drafting geniuses to begin with: From 1998-2003, we traded away 4 of 5 of our FRPs, and only 1 SRP amounted to anything for us. It just so happens those two guys in that 5 year stretch were Tony and Manu.

If you make your hits count, no one cares about the misses.

[scott]

Saw a reminder of this the other day... this is what Whiffing in the draft looks like. I have plenty of criticism for the Spurs FO... but it's always good to remember it could be WAY worse

https://i.redd.it/c4mp4mjr16de1.jpeg

Notable guys they passed up over this stretch:

2018: Luka (3), JJJ (4), Trae Young (5), Shai (11)
2017: Fox (5), Lauri (7), Spida (13), Bam (14)
2016: Jamal Murra (7), Saboner (11) [TBH this draft kinda sucked. Jaylen Brown was taken right before their pick... hard to be too bent out of shape about 2016]
2015: CONGRATS YOU GOT IT RIGHT!
2014: Firm handshakes for this one, good job
2013: CJ McCollum (10), Steven Adams (12), Giannis (15) [Another shitty draft that you really only aced if you had a crystal ball and took Giannis)
2012: Yet another shitty draft from their pick down, Maurice Harkless and Evan Fournier the best players taken after their pick... wow. Draymond and Middleton in the Second Round tho.

Not in this graphic:

2019: Took Jarrett Culver at 6. Pretty much anyone else taken after would have been better, though not by much.
2020: Took Jalen Smith, immediate after Vassell and Haliburton were picked.

The Suns are that rare combination of bad drafting and bad trade acquisitions.

[exstatic]

Saw a reminder of this the other day... this is what Whiffing in the draft looks like. I have plenty of criticism for the Spurs FO... but it's always good to remember it could be WAY worse

https://i.redd.it/c4mp4mjr16de1.jpeg

Notable guys they passed up over this stretch:

2018: Luka (3), JJJ (4), Trae Young (5), Shai (11)
2017: Fox (5), Lauri (7), Spida (13), Bam (14)
2016: Jamal Murra (7), Saboner (11) [TBH this draft kinda sucked. Jaylen Brown was taken right before their pick... hard to be too bent out of shape about 2016]
2015: CONGRATS YOU GOT IT RIGHT!
2014: Firm handshakes for this one, good job
2013: CJ McCollum (10), Steven Adams (12), Giannis (15) [Another shitty draft that you really only aced if you had a crystal ball and took Giannis)
2012: Yet another shitty draft from their pick down, Maurice Harkless and Evan Fournier the best players taken after their pick... wow. Draymond and Middleton in the Second Round tho.

Not in this graphic:

2019: Took Jarrett Culver at 6. Pretty much anyone else taken after would have been better, though not by much.
2020: Took Jalen Smith, immediate after Vassell and Haliburton were picked.

The Suns are that rare combination of bad drafting and bad trade acquisitions.

So, they could flip Book for their picks back, monetize KD for a couple of FRPs and still probably lose?

[spurraider21]

ayton was such a cucked pick tbh :lol... playing it safe with an athletic center with moderate talent as opposed to going for a legit franchise player. even if ayton hit his projecting ceiling that was never going to be a team's best player

[BatManu20]

Taking Sochan over Jalen Willams is looking worse by the week. Guy just continues to ball out for OKC. Still only 23 years old. He's going to be their version of Jaylen Brown imo, a 2nd All-Star caliber wing player who can be their best player on any given night and their go-to guy if/when SGA isn't playing.

1880078739280736474

[BatManu20]

There's no guarantee that we get Wemby if we draft either one of these guys so you really can't bitch about it, but imagine if had drafted Sengün and J-Will instead of Primo and Sochan. We'd be cookin right now tbh.

[spurraider21]

at some point you have to call statute of limitations on "picking player x over y was a mistake." yes with years of information and hindsight things will look different

i dont remember people on this board melting down saying i cant believe we took sochan with j-dub avaiable the way they did with primo/sengun

[baseline bum]

It's the same thing that got PATFO the reputation of being drafting geniuses to begin with: From 1998-2003, we traded away 4 of 5 of our FRPs, and only 1 SRP amounted to anything for us. It just so happens those two guys in that 5 year stretch were Tony and Manu.

If you make your hits count, no one cares about the misses.

Giricek and Scola were two more great picks they made in that period. Still salty about gift-wrapping Scola to the Rockets when he would have been amazing to throw on Gasol in the 08 WCF :pctoss

[ambchang]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/43401949/how-thunder-turned-youthful-energy-winning-culture


Focus on growing what you have and not make flashy trades. So incompatible with what our spurs talk experts want.

That said, we have to develop our talent. I do not see a single player who is on a Dort type trajectory.

[rascal]

Saw a reminder of this the other day... this is what Whiffing in the draft looks like. I have plenty of criticism for the Spurs FO... but it's always good to remember it could be WAY worse

https://i.redd.it/c4mp4mjr16de1.jpeg

Notable guys they passed up over this stretch:

2018: Luka (3), JJJ (4), Trae Young (5), Shai (11)
2017: Fox (5), Lauri (7), Spida (13), Bam (14)
2016: Jamal Murra (7), Saboner (11) [TBH this draft kinda sucked. Jaylen Brown was taken right before their pick... hard to be too bent out of shape about 2016]
2015: CONGRATS YOU GOT IT RIGHT!
2014: Firm handshakes for this one, good job
2013: CJ McCollum (10), Steven Adams (12), Giannis (15) [Another shitty draft that you really only aced if you had a crystal ball and took Giannis)
2012: Yet another shitty draft from their pick down, Maurice Harkless and Evan Fournier the best players taken after their pick... wow. Draymond and Middleton in the Second Round tho.

Not in this graphic:

2019: Took Jarrett Culver at 6. Pretty much anyone else taken after would have been better, though not by much.
2020: Took Jalen Smith, immediate after Vassell and Haliburton were picked.

The Suns are that rare combination of bad drafting and bad trade acquisitions.

Suns got Mikael Bridges for Zhaire Smith and a first rounder. That was a steal

[Obstructed_View]

Taking Sochan over Jalen Willams is looking worse by the week. Guy just continues to ball out for OKC. Still only 23 years old. He's going to be their version of Jaylen Brown imo, a 2nd All-Star caliber wing player who can be their best player on any given night and their go-to guy if/when SGA isn't playing.

1880078739280736474
Again, at some point you have to see the pattern that OKC is developing players and the Spurs are bringing guys back year after year who look like they worked on nothing in the offseason.

[RC_Drunkford]

Taking Sochan over Jalen Willams is looking worse by the week. Guy just continues to ball out for OKC. Still only 23 years old. He's going to be their version of Jaylen Brown imo, a 2nd All-Star caliber wing player who can be their best player on any given night and their go-to guy if/when SGA isn't playing.

1880078739280736474

you know what's the crazy thing about that? For years, the Spurs had put a huge emphasis on combine play. Samanic, Primo, they were also drafted because of strong play in the combine (besides some other reasons). And Jalen Williams was killing it in the combine, but of course the Spurs didn't draft him.


Again, at some point you have to see the pattern that OKC is developing players and the Spurs are bringing guys back year after year who look like they worked on nothing in the offseason.

they got Chip

[dbestpro]

Spurs are going to have to trade their way not being a playoff team.

[BatManu20]

you know what's the crazy thing about that? For years, the Spurs had put a huge emphasis on combine play. Samanic, Primo, they were also drafted because of strong play in the combine (besides some other reasons). And Jalen Williams was killing it in the combine, but of course the Spurs didn't draft him.


Yea I remember him being the fastest high-riser at the combine. He was shooting up draft boards during the pre-draft process and there were rumors that he was going to potentially be a top-10 pick. I know the Spurs had him in for a workout so he was def on their radar. I'm genuinely curious as to what their draft board looked like that year. Was J-Will right after Sochan on their board? Or was he a handful of players down. We'll never know so I guess the point is moot, but he and Sochan are completely different players obv so I wonder what went into that thought process.

Sochan is still a useful player if he can continue to improve as a 3-point shooter, but he's still not a great fit beside Wemby so I can't help but think about what a better fit Sengün would be at the 4 if he were a Spur right now + J-Will at the 3 as the legit going scorer that we so desperately need. That'd be a nasty big man combo at the 4 & 5 with both of their passing & shooting ability. Had they already had Wemby to cover some of his defensive shortcomings, I think PATFO might've gone with Sengün instead of Sochan. But as spurraider21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=31905) said, hindsight is always 20/20. No point in harping on it for too long and there's no guarantee we get Wemby if we land either Senün or J-Will so I digress.

[LeBowen]

Yea I remember him being the fastest high-riser at the combine. He was shooting up draft boards during the pre-draft process and there were rumors that he was going to potentially be a top-10 pick. I know the Spurs had him in for a workout. He was def on their radar. I'm genuinely curious as to what their draft board looked like that year. Was J-Will right after Sochan on their board? Or was he a handful of players down. We'll never know so I guess the point is moot, but he and Sochan are completely different players obv so I wonder what went into that thought process.

Sochan is still a useful player if he can continue to improve as a 3-point shooter, but he's still not a great fit beside Wemby so I can't help but think about what a better fit Sengün would be if he were a Spur right now. That'd be a nasty big man combo at the 4 & 5 with both of their passing & shooting ability. Had they already had Wemby to cover some of his defensive shortcomings, I think PATFO might've gone with Sengün instead of Sochan. But as spurraider21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=31905) said, hindsight is always 20/20. No point in harping on it for too long and there's no guarantee we get Wemby if we land either Senün or J-Will so I digress.

I think it was down to the roster construction at the time.
They got Devin instead of Haliburton because they weren't planning to blow it up, had both Derrick and Dejounte on the roster.
Then they got Jeremy instead of Williams because he was projected to be a SG and we had Devin and Primo to develop in that role, with Keldon being the only young wing.

Should've went with BPA in both cases, but what can you do.
The only picks I resent are Samanic and Primo because both times they tried to outsmart everyone and drafted players that weren't high on anyone's board.

[quentin_compson]

I think it was down to the roster construction at the time.
They got Devin instead of Haliburton because they weren't planning to blow it up, had both Derrick and Dejounte on the roster.
Then they got Jeremy instead of Williams because he was projected to be a SG and we had Devin and Primo to develop in that role, with Keldon being the only young wing.

Should've went with BPA in both cases, but what can you do.
The only picks I resent are Samanic and Primo because both times they tried to outsmart everyone and drafted players that weren't high on anyone's board.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. As you said, they should have gone with BPA (and maybe they did, who knows), as teams almost always should when picking in the lottery. Pondering the roster fit for a team that is going nowhere anyway is not a particularly smart thing to do.

[Truckules]

The only picks I resent are Samanic and Primo because both times they tried to outsmart everyone and drafted players that weren't high on anyone's board.

I agree for the most part, but I'm not as upset about Samanic. Samanic was a bad pick but overall didn't hurt the team too much. They took a swing and missed big, but the players behind him in the draft ended up being bench level players or worse. It would've been nice to have them but wouldn't have changed the team's trajectory much. The Primo pick was awful though and hopefully Wright learned a lesson from it.

[Obstructed_View]

they got Chip
Too bad there's only the one shooting coach in the entire world.

[Baam]

The situation is much more serious than you'd think.

[slick'81]

Primo vs senguin was an absolute shit show

[RC_Drunkford]

Too bad there's only the one shooting coach in the entire world.

that's not the point, he's the best in the game and we have Jimmy Baron who has no credentials.

[Pauleta14]

Too bad there's only the one shooting coach in the entire world.

Chip literally changed the careers of TP9 and Nephew.

Since he joined OKC, players that couldn't shoot or were average have become elite.

You think it's just a correlation?

I don't.

edit/ Of course it's not the only reason but if you cumulate it to the rest of the corporate knowledge that left...

[CGD]

Im my view everything reset the moment we got Wemby. The existing players turned from potential building blocks to assets, and they’ve been evaluating what they have. One or two may stick long term, but what really matters is the drafting going forward (so far Steph looks great).

Not saying they shouldn’t be scrutinized for their late lotto sections in these years, but the reality is that those picks don’t really matter anymore (or they matter to the extent they can be moved).

[cd98]

People think all our young players suck and then think we can just trade them for good players.

[z0sa]

Im my view everything reset the moment we got Wemby. The existing players turned from potential building blocks to assets, and they’ve been evaluating what they have. One or two may stick long term, but what really matters is the drafting going forward (so far Steph looks great).

Not saying they shouldn’t be scrutinized for their late lotto sections in these years, but the reality is that those picks don’t really matter anymore (or they matter to the extent they can be moved).

I agree. We were building before Wemby with no real set idea of where we'd be in 5 years.

After Wemby, the goal is crystal clear: titles.

PATFO should hold NO loyalty to guys like Branham. I wouldn't even have loyalty to a guy like Vassell if I didn't truly believe he has the make of a perfect #3 on a contender.

I'm too busy to watch many other teams or prospects too closely, but I think it's clear what we need right now.

We need a stretch 5 like nobody's business (or stretch 4, if you will, but they need outside shooting, size, rebounding, and a high IQ) first and foremost. WE need to be doing the type of spacing the best teams nowadays do thanks to the way the NBA rules work.

Castle is a guy who can get into the paint consistently but he needs an outside jumpshot. However his archetype (with at least an average outside shot) is the other missing piece in the SL.

If we can somehow draft a stretch 4/5 type, that'd be ideal as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully Steph can improve his jumpshot markedly (at least in consistency) over the course of the remainder of this season and the off-season.

Guys like Sochan should be shown zero loyalty for both trade deals and incoming draftee(s).

[Pauleta14]

Im my view everything reset the moment we got Wemby. The existing players turned from potential building blocks to assets, and they’ve been evaluating what they have. One or two may stick long term, but what really matters is the drafting going forward (so far Steph looks great).

Not saying they shouldn’t be scrutinized for their late lotto sections in these years, but the reality is that those picks don’t really matter anymore (or they matter to the extent they can be moved).


Wasn't last season enough to evaluate them?

They apparently did and thought they deserved to all come back and even extended Brahman and Wesley...

At some point we need to stop living in the past and realize this isn't the PATFO of old times, talent evaluation and players development are just awful and it's not a surprise considering all the personnel lost in recent years.

[Knoxxx]

We need some roster churn to the tune of at least 4-6 new faces, SOON.

[spursistan]

You watch that game and ask yourself: are Vassell & Sochan any different players from their rookie or sophomore seasons? What else left to see from "the let's see what we have in this young core" headlined by this duo. Third year largely cements a player status/tier in this league and that's what's they are.

[z0sa]

You watch that game and ask yourself: are Vassell & Sochan any different players from their rookie or sophomore seasons? What else left to see from "the let's see what we have in this young core" headlined by this duo. Third year largely cements a player status/tier in this league and that's what's they are.

In my opinion, Vassell has significantly regressed since last season. He got paid and ain't that good anymore, huh!

[rankingtear]

In my opinion, Vassell has significantly regressed since last season. He got paid and ain't that good anymore, huh!

A lot of fans just look at players in a vacuum but the difference in playstyle most often dictates a players performance. There is significantly less screening and handoff actions making Devin an odd fit with this new Wemby and Castle being more favored. Everything is fit outside of the top 10 players. It is no coincidence that KJ is thriving with this increased pace.

[BackHome]

I am hoping that Vassell will be able to rebound from his foot surgery next season and I’m hoping it is just a mental pain issue. If that is not the case then he needs to definitely be either traded or regulated to sixth man but hoping for the best. I think though the biggest issue is loosing Pop so suddenly as that threw everything up in the air as we are now looking at having to make major decisions without any input from who ever our future coach is.

As far as players I agree I think we have seen everyone true colors and we can and should easily replace 3 to 5 players for next season. We though desperately need to put a great coaching staff together all the way from head coach to the G League.