Legit Dilemma III: Fox incoming. CP3 vs Castle for starter spot. Do you think Mitch dares to bench CP3's old ass or to hinder Castle's growth?

[spursparker9]

Fox is starting for sure.

Who should start at the other guard spot? CP3 or Castle?

Click on the number of the poll to see who voted for who

[John B]

Remember CP3 came here after a stint with the Dubs and not liking to be a second fiddle to Curry. That was Curry!! CP3 came here to ball and play significant minutes. He was very clear about that:

What should be:
Fox, Vassell, Castle, Barnes, Wemby

But since Mitch will have no balls to sit CP3
CP3, Fox, Vassell, Sochan, Wemby
Castle, Champ, Keldon, Barnes, Mamu/Bassey

I think that would be the compromise that people could live by. I think Castle still gets plenty of minutes running the 2nd team. It would be interesting how Sochan can feed-off all the shooters around him, maybe he’ll fit right in. But what happens when CP3 retires and Castle has to start? Castle and Sochan are unplayable together unless one of them miraculously starts shooting high percentages. I guess they’ll cross that bridge and hope for the best.

[LeBowen]

CP3's intangibles are as good as it gets.
A perfect mentor, leader, floor general, we all know it.
But his style of play slows these young guys down way too much and their skillsets are way more suited for high pace.

He won't get benched out of respect, though.
CP3/Fox/Castle can still work.
No matter who starts at guard positions, Devin can't be in the starting lineup because we'd get murdered on defense.

My preferred lineup would be Fox/Castle/Champ/Barnes/Wemby, but that's also not going to happen.
Jeremy also can't be a starter with his current skillset.

I actually hope that Mitch won't have a starting lineup set in stone and that he'll try out every possible combination, we should use the rest of the season to figure out what works best.
Devin and Keldon should be made aware that they need to get their shit together because right now the team is legit better without them, even if we have noone else and the stats show it. Even without Fox.
Jeremy's extension is also a big question mark. Right now he's not worth more than 15 to 18 a year. Even that's generous.

[thOOdee]

I think w the fox trade a message was also sent of how valuable we consider castle. The rest of this year should be used to test things out. They’ll be times he starts and is in the second unit. I’m fine w either for this year.

[Uriel]

If Mitch's goal is to make the playoffs (which it is), he will bench Castle and start CP3 (which he will).

[Guru of Nothing]

I have no idea what CP3's long term ambitions are, but things could really be lining up nicely for him to finally get a ring - with the Spurs. Unless there's a deal putting him in an OKC or Boston uniform, his best opportunity to win a ring is right where he is, where I think he can gear up for about two more years of carefully curated load balancing (say 50 games at about 20-25 minutes per). Maybe he starts, maybe he doesn't, but if this roster comes together like we all hope it does, CP3 can put a John Elway like cap on his career - and I'll be here for it. And who knows, another year or two of CP3 could have enough gravity to pull in a third veteran for the rotation at a discount (KD would be the dream here, so adjust downwardly from here)

And then he can transition to head coach, if Becky doesn't already have the job, and begin to double his HoF credentials.

[LeBowen]

If Mitch's goal is to make the playoffs (which it is), he will bench Castle and start CP3 (which he will).

Are you sure that CP3 will be a bigger contributor than Castle with Fox also on the floor?
Idk if you noticed, but Grizzlies scored on CP3 many times and there was nothing he could do about it because our nominal SF had to guard their PG and then the matchups got scrambles, with CP3 being left on players he had no chance to defend.

[spursparker9]

Tbh we are already more than half way through the season and I think we have seen the maximum effect of CP3's influence already.

There is only so much CP3 can do and his non-scoring threat + defensive liability is an eyesore at times.

CP3 can't fix Vassell's slump; Sochan's 3 point shot; Champaigne's clumsy hand; Wemby's TO due to trying to dribble too much.

Not sure about CP3's contract but I hope he is gone before start of next season. It is time for Castle to shine

[itzsoweezee]

CP3 wouldn’t have come to San Antonio for a bench role. He basically said as much in his interviews. I think it’s very unlikely he goes to the bench.

[BatManu20]

CP3 ain't getting benched. It'll likely be Castle who does, which sucks because he's been playing by far his best ball of the season over the past 10 games.

[Dex]

Frankly, he should bench Sochan who has been playing like ass.

CP3 / Fox / Castle / Barnes / Wemby

Stagger minutes with Fox/Castle off the bench, with KJ / Vassell / Sochan / Bassey


I know that makes for a terribly small lineup, but we still have Wemby and Jeremy is doing more harm than good right now

We also can't expect Fox to come in Day 1 and understand the system or players around him, so having CP3 to run the show will be necessary imo

[TD 21]

Not sold Paul will remain post deadline, but if so, I don't see how Castle doesn't start for two reasons. 1) To provide a POA defender and 2) In a related note, to stagger him with Sochan.

[Spurminator]

I'd prefer to maximize Castle's minutes on the floor with Wemby and Fox.

Paul off the bench makes sense, if only to add some much needed BBIQ to the bench unit, but he may not go for that. If that's the case, hopefully we can facilitate a trade + buy-out.

[baseline bum]

Tbh we are already more than half way through the season and I think we have seen the maximum effect of CP3's influence already.

There is only so much CP3 can do and his non-scoring threat + defensive liability is an eyesore at times.

CP3 can't fix Vassell's slump; Sochan's 3 point shot; Champaigne's clumsy hand; Wemby's TO due to trying to dribble too much.

Not sure about CP3's contract but I hope he is gone before start of next season. It is time for Castle to shine

???

https://craftednba.com/players/chris-paul

[R. DeMurre]

Undersized back courts almost never win at high levels and are probably my biggest single pet peeve when it comes to roster construction, but then it's not like the Spurs are hoping to get a ring this year. But it does Fox a disservice right off the bat, making him guard SGs instead of PGs in his introductory games as a Spur. He has good size for a PG, but is still an undersized SG defender. I still hope they package and send CP3 and someone else off to a contender for some value. There was lots of talk that the Spurs had a wink/wink deal with Paul when he signed, and I hope it's true.

[DAF86]

I would start all 3, tbh.

[Arguendo]

CP3's intangibles are as good as it gets.
A perfect mentor, leader, floor general, we all know it.
But his style of play slows these young guys down way too much and their skillsets are way more suited for high pace.

He won't get benched out of respect, though.
CP3/Fox/Castle can still work.
No matter who starts at guard positions, Devin can't be in the starting lineup because we'd get murdered on defense.

You make some great points and CP3s play is still absolutely ELITE as a floor general today.
He's 2nd in NBA in ASS/100p behind only Trae, but way better than Trae whose A/TO per 100 is 14.8:6.0 vs 13.6:2.6 for Paul, Jokic at 13.6:4.1. Paul is easily the best, high volume efficient creator (for others) in the league today at 40. Only Hali is close (12.1:2.5).
Paul actually has a great argument to keep playing 29ish mpg, he is basically as efficient as he has ever been, but of course now he can't get to the rim and he is slow/crushing Pace. But Fox and Castle can get to the rim, Paul can efficiently create for everyone and hit 3s, Wemby's and Fox gravity provide space for everyone. Harrison can sharpshoot and fill gaps.

Castle must start because as POA defender + simply earned it. Castles splits are 15.1/4.2/3.2/0.9s/2.2TOs as a starter vs 7.2/2.8/2.2 off bench.

Personally I really want to see Paul lead our bench unit, give Fox/CAstle/Wemby/Vassell 19mpg to push the pace, and come in as a change of paceand limit possessions/pace with Sochan/KJ/Bassey/etc while up their efficiency and give Vassell the best opportunity to grow/improve his value.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking it doesn't much matter because the minutes will be staggered. 1 of Fox or Paul will be on the floor at all times, with Castle/Vassell providing 2nd and/or 3rd handling duties.

There also doesn't have to be any minutes problem. With a 5man small rotation of Paul/Fox/Castle/Vassel/Champ there are enough minutes. 48x3=144. Paul at 29.1, Castle 25.6, Vassell 30.1, Champ 25.4= 110.2, leaving 33.8 for Fox with minutes to take from Champ and days off/injuries.
Also, Paul hasn't missed a game yet, after missing 60 games the prior 3 years, more days off are likely ahead for him.

[dbestpro]

The best way for Castle to learn is to be on the floor with Paul and Fox. Johnson and Vassel can come off the bench and chuck away with any of the three starters rotating as PG with the second unit.

[BacktoBasics]

Paul isn't going to command 30-35 minutes or anything. Nor has he to this point. I think we gain more fulfilling our obligations to him than we do making a change to the starting lineup. We're really talking about the first 7-8 minutes of a game anyway. Then run our lineups accordingly from there.

There would be no shortage of instances where we would have CP3 and Fox finish the game together anyway. Paul gets the first 7 minutes and then they utilize him for 17 minutes over the final 41 minutes of the game.

This really doesn't seem like a dilemma.

[Arguendo]

The best way for Castle to learn is to be on the floor with Paul and Fox. Johnson and Vassel can come off the bench and chuck away with any of the three starters rotating as PG with the second unit.
Agree with Castle, but leaving KJ and Vassel to chuck together leads to a fast pace and lots of very inefficient possessions where leads will evaporate. If we want to win more games this year which allows Castle and Wemby to get more big game/meaningful minutes, the best way may be to get Castle 1/2 his minutes with Paul & Fox, and Paul to get 1/2 his minutes limiting the damage KJ/Vassell can do.

[Arguendo]

Paul isn't going to command 30-35 minutes or anything. Nor has he to this point. I think we gain more fulfilling our obligations to him than we do making a change to the starting lineup. We're really talking about the first 7-8 minutes of a game anyway. Then run our lineups accordingly from there.

There would be no shortage of instances where we would have CP3 and Fox finish the game together anyway. Paul gets the first 7 minutes and then they utilize him for 17 minutes over the final 41 minutes of the game.

This really doesn't seem like a dilemma.
Paul is averaging 29.1mpg, you just laid out a scenario where he loses 5.1mpg. Paul is the most efficient creator for his teammate in the NBA today and by a significant margin.

[SPURt]

None of the above? I’d prefer keeping Barnes starting at the 4 and giving Vassell the Manu role until CP3’s wheels fall off

[BacktoBasics]

Paul is averaging 29.1mpg, you just laid out a scenario where he loses 5.1mpg. Paul is the most efficient creator for his teammate in the NBA today and by a significant margin.

You don’t add an all star and expect more minutes. He should start. Get 25-26 minutes a game. Seems appropriate.

[Arguendo]

Tbh we are already more than half way through the season and I think we have seen the maximum effect of CP3's influence already.
There is only so much CP3 can do and his non-scoring threat + defensive liability is an eyesore at times.
CP3 can't fix Vassell's slump; Sochan's 3 point shot; Champaigne's clumsy hand; Wemby's TO due to trying to dribble too much.
Not sure about CP3's contract but I hope he is gone before start of next season. It is time for Castle to shine

You've got an interesting mix a good points sprinkled in with horrible takes here.
Why would CP3 fix Vassell's slump? Could Fox pushing Vassell down to his proper 3/4 option role help with the slump?

CP3 can't fix Sochan's 3 shot? Sure, but he's already helped drastically improve it. Sochan is shooting 32.6% from 3 while being elite at the rim (68.8%), Sochan was at 24.6% and 30.8% his first 2 years, he has shown significant improvement. Him shooting 34% next season would fit with this improvement. Aaron Gordon shot 27%, 30%, 29% before jumping to 34% his 4th year. Sochan is better at the rim and from 3 compared to a 3rd year AG, while being a significantly better rebounder and passer, and getting more steals and blocks in less minutes than a 3rd year AG (who didn't have a flukely thumb injury to stall his growth). Sochan has actually shown the improvements everyone (reasonable) wanted, he looks prime to be an elite role player next season, many of you are simply too dense to observe it because perfect is the enemy of good for you and reasonable expectations don't exit.

Better passing lanes and passes help mitigate clumsy hands and need to dribble. Fox helps all this not least by taking the #2 role and pushing everyone down.
If CP3 is healthy next year, he is likely to easily be the best backup PG in the league and I doubt a 41y/o CP3 expects to start. I would love to have CP3 playing 20-25mpg and leading our bench next year, that's how we take a jump to a 50+ win team, with a bench that is not constantly getting destroyed.

[DPG21920]

Move CP and Dev to bench.

[Arguendo]

You don’t add an all star and expect more minutes. He should start. Get 25-26 minutes a game. Seems appropriate.
Who said more minutes?
But fair enough, Paul has maybe been forced to play more minutes than ideal, but he's been as efficient with A/TO as ever, still the best in the league. I think that's valuable to utilize to limit Vassell/KJ/bad possessions, but 3mpg isn't worth really discussing and Wemby obvi hides a lot of CP3 D short comings, so more time without Wemby could be very ugly.

[Davidicus]

I care more about ensuring CP3 is happy, BECAUSE we have the PnR Yoda on the same team as Fox and Wemby. Who cares, start CP3 Fox and have Castle sub in for CP3 6-7min in.

If CP3 cares about minutes, and/or starting, then give it to him. He’s more valuable to keep him here and teaching Castle Wemby and Fox.

[Arguendo]

I care more about ensuring CP3 is happy, BECAUSE we have the PnR Yoda on the same team as Fox and Wemby
Great point. Paul still has plenty to give. I'd also love to see CP3 as our future coach, but I never want to see Pop on the bench again so the timing may not be possible.

[BacktoBasics]

Who said more minutes?
But fair enough, Paul has maybe been forced to play more minutes than ideal, but he's been as efficient with A/TO as ever, still the best in the league. I think that's valuable to utilize to limit Vassell/KJ/bad possessions, but 3mpg isn't worth really discussing and Wemby obvi hides a lot of CP3 D short comings, so more time without Wemby could be very ugly.
Poor wording on my part. Really I meant to expect similar minutes. Essentially with us being below .500

[Seventyniner]

Great point. Paul still has plenty to give. I'd also love to see CP3 as our future coach, but I never want to see Pop on the bench again so the timing may not be possible.

Sign CP3 to a two-year contract this summer and have him be a player-coach. Pop can be Coach Emeritus and do Zoom calls from his house.

[RC_Drunkford]

you don't bench the rookie of the month

1886853433698722191

[scott]

This one is an actual Legit Dilemma, but I think it's easily solvable!

1) I think you start CP3/Fox/Castle but then have a pretty quick rotation that effectively moves CP3 and Fox into a staggered role so that they only play around 5-10 minutes with each other, and the CP3/Fox/Castle trio only plays around 6-8 minutes with each other. This appeases any kind of ego issue that might exist with CP3, and keeps Castle starting while sending a message to Devin that his place on this team is not etched in stone.

2) CP3 running the bench unit might be exactly what the doctor ordered. He slows the game down considerably, and while added pace might be good for our starting unit, a slower pace might help us from getting obliterated in our bench units like is currently happening. CP3 can be that calming influence to weather these storms that come at us when Wemby sits.

[Obstructed_View]

Cp3 needs to be shipped to a contender with a thank you. It's time for Champagne and Castle to start. Barnes is the only non-retard on the team, so he should be sixth man to stabilize the bench production.

[Joseph Kony]

you don't bench the rookie of the month

1886853433698722191

100% agree. imo the starting lineup should be:

Fox
Castle
Champagnie
Barnes
Victor

bench unit:

CP3
Vassell
Keldon
Sochan
*serviceable backup C acquired via trade


Team would function much better imo

[z0sa]

This my friend is truly an actual dilemma. CP3 made it clear he came here for playing time. He wants to not only play but have an impact after coming off the bench in GS.

I think he still starts and plays. Castle is likely the odd man out, unfortunately. That said, with how much of a turd Vassell has become, it's possible he comes off the bench and Castle starts. Just hate the "spacing" but Vassell isn't exactly a good shooter anymore so who knows. Will be very interesting moving forward.

[spurraider21]

This my friend is truly an actual dilemma. CP3 made it clear he came here for playing time. He wants to not only play but have an impact after coming off the bench in GS.

I think he still starts and plays. Castle is likely the odd man out, unfortunately. That said, with how much of a turd Vassell has become, it's possible he comes off the bench and Castle starts. Just hate the "spacing" but Vassell isn't exactly a good shooter anymore so who knows. Will be very interesting moving forward.
there was also a lot of smoke about whether or not the spurs had a handshake agreement to send paul to a contender at the deadline, and his contract was actually specifically below MLE amount so he could hit the buyout market even for 2nd apron teams

[Spurminator]

100% agree. imo the starting lineup should be:

Fox
Castle
Champagnie
Barnes
Victor

bench unit:

CP3
Vassell
Keldon
Sochan
*serviceable backup C acquired via trade


Team would function much better imo

Almost offered up this exact lineup, except I'd go ahead and start Sochan. With Fox and Castle in there with Wemby, there's really no scenario where Sochan should be trying to create offense or drive to the paint. He can focus on his strengths and work towards being an elite defensive player and rebounder.

[Ice009]

Cp3 needs to be shipped to a contender with a thank you. It's time for Champagne and Castle to start. Barnes is the only non-retard on the team, so he should be sixth man to stabilize the bench production.

CP3 can also teach De'Aaron Fox. I think it would be beneficial to have him stay.

I believe he really helped/played a part in Shai Gilgeous-Alexander becoming the player he is now with the tutelage he got from CP3 early on. He could help take Fox's game to another level. Victor and Stephon have probably already learned a lot, but I think he can also teach Fox some stuff too.

[ffadicted]

Cp3 needs to be shipped to a contender with a thank you. It's time for Champagne and Castle to start. Barnes is the only non-retard on the team, so he should be sixth man to stabilize the bench production.

Why do people want Julian to start lol there's no chance a lineup with him is better than a CP3 Fox Castle, fit or otherwise. Castle is also not ready to be a ball handler PG, so we need CP3 and Fox to do those duties with Tre gone.
If CP3 is ok with coming off the bench that's ideal, but shipping him off causes more problems and solves none.

[DesignatedT]

I guess I could see CP3 starting with Fox for a couple weeks until he gets his feet wet and is comfortable in the offense but I would like to see Fox-Castle-Vassell-Barnes-Wemby in the S5.

[LeBowen]

Why do people want Julian to start lol there's no chance a lineup with him is better than a CP3 Fox Castle, fit or otherwise. Castle is also not ready to be a ball handler PG, so we need CP3 and Fox to do those duties with Tre gone.
If CP3 is ok with coming off the bench that's ideal, but shipping him off causes more problems and solves none.

Because Julian is our only textbook shooter. Noone else has natural off the ball shooter's movements.
You don't need 5 players who can score 20 in the starting lineup, you need someone who's going to fill their role.

He averages 13ppg on 37% from 3pt as a starter and he's not a negative on defense.
Even if Devin goes to like 18ppg on 42% from 3pt which is highly unlikely, I'm not sure the difference would be worth it because it forces us into a 3 guard lineup and our defense gets way worse.

PATFO's long-term idea is obvious. A team with good size without defensive liabilities and everyone being able to shoot.
Fox/Castle/Champ/Barnes/Wemby is the only lineup that somewhat goes along those lines. Ideally you want to upgrade Champ and even Barnes, but I'd rather have worse versions of ideal solutions in the lineup than have players who don't fit role-wise.

[DesignatedT]

Vassell needs to start concentrating on playing off the ball and shooting. I think playing off of Fox will greatly benefit Vassell. He's been asked to do to much offensively and he won't be in that position with Fox.

[Arguendo]

This one is an actual Legit Dilemma, but I think it's easily solvable!

1) I think you start CP3/Fox/Castle but then have a pretty quick rotation that effectively moves CP3 and Fox into a staggered role so that they only play around 5-10 minutes with each other, and the CP3/Fox/Castle trio only plays around 6-8 minutes with each other. This appeases any kind of ego issue that might exist with CP3, and keeps Castle starting while sending a message to Devin that his place on this team is not etched in stone.

2) CP3 running the bench unit might be exactly what the doctor ordered. He slows the game down considerably, and while added pace might be good for our starting unit, a slower pace might help us from getting obliterated in our bench units like is currently happening. CP3 can be that calming influence to weather these storms that come at us when Wemby sits.

Same page club, with #2 being the biggest gainer.
CP3 slows down the pace, bad for efficient players Fox/Wemby (while they have fresh legs) but perfect for the Vassells/KJs. CP3 limits damage (including his own D liability) simply with his pace while improving the efficiency on O significantly.
Only nit to pick is shared minutes, if Fox plays 34mpg there's only 14 off-court, CP3 will have to spend 10+mpg with Fox, unless you think CP3 should only play 19mpg, a 35% minutes reduction.
I want CP3 at 28ish, Fox at 34ish, Castle & Vassel at 30ish, with Champ taking the remaining 22. CP3 plays every minute Fox is off, shares the court the other 14minutes, setting up the O and giving Fox/Wemby a breather which always them to push all-out for about 20 minutes a game.

[ffadicted]

Because Julian is our only textbook shooter. Noone else has natural off the ball shooter's movements.
You don't need 5 players who can score 20 in the starting lineup, you need someone who's going to fill their role.

He averages 13ppg on 37% from 3pt as a starter and he's not a negative on defense.
Even if Devin goes to like 18ppg on 42% from 3pt which is highly unlikely, I'm not sure the difference would be worth it because it forces us into a 3 guard lineup and our defense gets way worse.

PATFO's long-term idea is obvious. A team with good size without defensive liabilities and everyone being able to shoot.
Fox/Castle/Champ/Barnes/Wemby is the only lineup that somewhat goes along those lines. Ideally you want to upgrade Champ and even Barnes, but I'd rather have worse versions of ideal solutions in the lineup than have players who don't fit role-wise.

I kind of see your point, but maybe I'm just not as high on Julian as some people. In my eyes he's not Danny Green or Derrick White where he can be a solid 3 and D guy that can live in a starting lineup, I struggle to see him getting more value for our Fox/Wemby pairing than CP3, especially knowing how well CP3 has matched up with other guards before.
I guess we'll see what Brian wants to do, but I guess to your point, hopefully he's willing to test some things out.

[Arguendo]

you don't bench the rookie of the month
Especially when that rookie has averaged 17.7/3.8/4.4/2.5TOs on 46.8/34.7/72.5 splits on 4.6 3s, 4 FTa over his last 10 starts. He was almost that good filling in for Sochan injury time in his first string of starts being 15.1/4.2/3.2 as across 29 starts, but his 3pt shot is really coming around, at least the non-Sochan starters.

Castle is looking like he can be a legit #3 next year, assuming him and Fox can mesh. Vassell either becomes a spot-up, #4 option or he gets moved.

[TDomination]

CP3, Fox, Castle, Barnes, Wemby <-- Best players on the team should equal starting 5

This is an awesome dilemma to have, we'll see how the players gel together.
And btw i truly hope we are able to keep cp3, i still believe having him is better for our team than not with his intangibles.

[scott]

Same page club, with #2 being the biggest gainer.
CP3 slows down the pace, bad for efficient players Fox/Wemby (while they have fresh legs) but perfect for the Vassells/KJs. CP3 limits damage (including his own D liability) simply with his pace while improving the efficiency on O significantly.
Only nit to pick is shared minutes, if Fox plays 34mpg there's only 14 off-court, CP3 will have to spend 10+mpg with Fox, unless you think CP3 should only play 19mpg, a 35% minutes reduction.
I want CP3 at 28ish, Fox at 34ish, Castle & Vassel at 30ish, with Champ taking the remaining 22. CP3 plays every minute Fox is off, shares the court the other 14minutes, setting up the O and giving Fox/Wemby a breather which always them to push all-out for about 20 minutes a game.

Good stuff. I haven't tried to fully breakdown a rotation pattern, but I think you've got it. My only thought is that maybe we scale Fox back to the 31-32 range to keep him fresh.

[LeBowen]

CP3, Fox, Castle, Barnes, Wemby <-- Best players on the team should equal starting 5

I wounder what would Manu say about this?
Team's success should always be the #1 priority, if someone has too big of an ego they're welcome to request a trade.
Even if that someone is CP3.


This is an awesome dilemma to have, we'll see how the players gel together.
And btw i truly hope we are able to keep cp3, i still believe having him is better for our team than not with his intangibles.

I fully agree with this, but I don't think it make sense to start both him and Fox and hinder Castle's development.
As already said, CP3 would be perfect for the bench unit to slow the game down and get lower IQ players like Devin and Keldon into best possible positions.
With Fox/Castle/Wemby trio we have serious potential to run teams off the floor.

[scott]

I kind of see your point, but maybe I'm just not as high on Julian as some people. In my eyes he's not Danny Green or Derrick White where he can be a solid 3 and D guy that can live in a starting lineup, I struggle to see him getting more value for our Fox/Wemby pairing than CP3, especially knowing how well CP3 has matched up with other guards before.
I guess we'll see what Brian wants to do, but I guess to your point, hopefully he's willing to test some things out.

I'm kind in the Champ club as well, not becaus eI Think he's Danny Green but because I think Danny Green is the best archetype for what we need and Champ is the closest we have to it. I think if we have a rough facsimile, it may benefit us to play that way even if we don't have the right guy. Devin just brings a completely different playstyle (and not in a good way). Maybe Devin can adapt into the 3&D he was drafted to be.

[DesignatedT]

Ehh Devin gets a lot of flack for his defense and deservedly so but Champ is not a good defender either. I've actually seen more effort from Devin on that side of the ball recently out of the two.

[heyheymymy]

I want to do

CP3
Fox
Castle
Barnes
Wemby

But think both Paul and Fox need to play the 1 slot and not sure about sliding Fox up to SG simply due to positional size concerns.
You could pull that off against certain teams however. Fox at 6'3" and with decent length in wingspan could start at SG against say, HOU with a 6'4" Jalen Green or DAL with a 6'2" Kyrie Irving, for example.

[heyheymymy]

But yeah you can't send CP3 to the bench so not sure what they end up going with and makes me wonder if additional moves are incoming?

[heyheymymy]

To be clear: I'm open to benching CP3 and eventually gotta figure it'll happen just due to and and ability. But I feel like a big reason he came over to SA was to play and start and I did kinda feel like he bristled at the idea of coming off the bench for Curry on GSW.

Does he relent, does his ability depreciate to the point where it's inevitable or does Fox and Castle command the start with their talented performance?

Moving Vassell to the bench makes the most sense and I'm really liking the idea of a reduced role for Devin where he just comes in as surplus scoring in hopes he can settle into that expectation with a bit more positive results and then we can work back up from there be it a trade out or him earning more mins/spotlight with his increased production tethered to efficiency.

[Arguendo]

Ehh Devin gets a lot of flack for his defense and deservedly so but Champ is not a good defender either. I've actually seen more effort from Devin on that side of the ball recently out of the two.
Truth, but I think that's due to role/expectations/cost.

Vassell was drafted as a potential dynamic O guy with high D potential, a 3&D at worst. His 3rd and 4th years led people to believe he could maybe be a #2 or at worst a #3 option. This season he's looking like an inefficient #4/5 option with bad D, making $27M a year, so he's disappointing in every reasonable expectation while making real money.

Champ was claimed off the scrap heap, surprised everyone, is an above average shooter making and locked into a near minimum deal who has proven to be consistent as both a starter and bench player.

Its easy to nit-pick a guy you reasonably thought would be a core franchise piece who is disappointing at the price of a lottery pick.
Its much harder to nit-pick a guy who is surprising who, making (NBA) couch cushion money, who cost you nothing, who simply provides average-to-above average play, especially when that guy is (sadly) the second best shooter on your team.

[Davidicus]

This one is an actual Legit Dilemma, but I think it's easily solvable!

1) I think you start CP3/Fox/Castle but then have a pretty quick rotation that effectively moves CP3 and Fox into a staggered role so that they only play around 5-10 minutes with each other, and the CP3/Fox/Castle trio only plays around 6-8 minutes with each other. This appeases any kind of ego issue that might exist with CP3, and keeps Castle starting while sending a message to Devin that his place on this team is not etched in stone.

2) CP3 running the bench unit might be exactly what the doctor ordered. He slows the game down considerably, and while added pace might be good for our starting unit, a slower pace might help us from getting obliterated in our bench units like is currently happening. CP3 can be that calming influence to weather these storms that come at us when Wemby sits.

I like a lot of this. If Vassell is de facto relegated to a 3rd option / floor spacer now that we have Fox…I trust CP3 to make that open 3pt shot more than Vassell. I only worry about defense - Vassell is bad but CP3 is really bad.

Watching the second unit run around like chickens with their heads cut off all the time, would love to see CP3 out there yelling at Keldon and Bassey to quit fuckin around.

[Mr. Body]

I just run Fox and Paul together. Castle and Sochan have looked great at times this year, and that's largely due to CP setting the table. I want the rest of the 30 or so games with him in tutor mode, even if it futzes up the mainline starters. That's okay.

Try out Vassell, Sochan, or Castle alongside them. If you make the play-in, fantastic, but that's not my ulterior goal.

Come summer, I pitch Paul on a full-on backup role. He's slowing down and likely doesn't get a starting gig anywhere at this point, much less for a team that's on the elevator going up. I think he'd accept his last year or so with the Spurs coming off the bench, and barring bad luck this is a play-off team next season.

[Arguendo]

Haven't seen anyone mention this.
Fox and Castle have fairly similar styles, take it to the hoop and get to the line, but both are way below avg 3shooters this season.

With both those guys are on the court at the same time, the other 3 guys have to provide some spacing.
Spurs only have 3 rotation guys above league avg (35.9%), Barnes, Champ, and CP3 (41.6%, 36.5%, 36.2%, respectively- Wemby is at 35.8% so damn near average).

We can expect Wemby + Fox's shared gravity to open up more 3s, but we may need CP3 out there with Castle/Fox simply for spacing alone.

[scott]

Haven't seen anyone mention this.
Fox and Castle have fairly similar styles, take it to the hoop and get to the line, but both are way below avg 3shooters this season.

With both those guys are on the court at the same time, the other 3 guys have to provide some spacing.
Spurs only have 3 rotation guys above league avg (35.9%), Barnes, Champ, and CP3 (41.6%, 36.5%, 36.2%, respectively- Wemby is at 35.8% so damn near average).

We can expect Wemby + Fox's shared gravity to open up more 3s, but we may need CP3 out there with Castle/Fox simply for spacing alone.

I'm hoping Castle's last 10 games (35% from 3) is a trend and not a blip and that he's growing into that shot. Some of his misses still look pretty bad, but so do Wemby's to be honest.

I also think Fox is going to surprise some folks and we're going to see that percentage come up next to Wemby.

[heyheymymy]

Shit I have seen the light and agree with Lebowen, Spurm and Kony

Fox/CP3
Castle/Vassell
Champ/Johnson
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Rebounding big or Bassey

* barring additional moves


- Love the call that CP3 slows the game down perfectly with the bench unit of classic spurs Vassell, Johnson, Sochan
- Champ needs to start so the magnitude of other starters gives Champ more wide open windows for threes where he can shine
- Castles triple still needs work but has improved in Jan and if he starts with Champ/Barnes/Wemby that should be sufficient spacing especially if Fox can uptick any at all

[heyheymymy]

Wondering too if Fox will do the Sacramento freshen up that Barnes seemed to do when he arrived where playing for the Kings was so depressing that players were kinda not their best versions of themselves but once they get into the Spurs system and a less dysfunctional franchise they perk up a little bit

which would be crazy because Fox was pretty sensational already but I could totally see him holding back a little in SAC like why go full throttle on my body for this?

[Arguendo]

I'm hoping Castle's last 10 games (35% from 3) is a trend and not a blip and that he's growing into that shot. Some of his misses still look pretty bad, but so do Wemby's to be honest.
I also think Fox is going to surprise some folks and we're going to see that percentage come up next to Wemby.

Blip is very possible, if not likely on the 3%. But its enough to give me real hope he can get to that 33+% and get there sooner rather than later.

I'm confident Castle's overall showing in those 10 games is a definite trend, because that dude gets to the line a lot, like 30% of the time. Steph is now 27th amongst all PG/SG/SF in FTr. Steph is elite at getting to the rim and drawing fouls (or finishing at the rim) and that should give him more cushion from 3. Future is bright, can't wait to get Fox here!

[Raven]

think they should both be benched tbh

[Ice009]

think they should both be benched tbh

Again, what is your problem with Castle? Lay it out. Tell us basketball wise why you don't like him.

[Obstructed_View]

Why do people want Julian to start lol there's no chance a lineup with him is better than a CP3 Fox Castle, fit or otherwise. Castle is also not ready to be a ball handler PG, so we need CP3 and Fox to do those duties with Tre gone.
If CP3 is ok with coming off the bench that's ideal, but shipping him off causes more problems and solves none.
There is so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start.

Julian is the best shooter on the team. He is rounding into a 3 and D role far quicker than LDN did. He would not be replacing Paul, Castle or Fox in the SL. Castle is outstanding with the ball in his hands, but Fox will be the primary ball handler. The two of them in the backcourt together will be amazing.

Tre was shit. Glad he's gone. CP3 is old AF and is being worn out. Let him run the bench team and keep his wind for the playoffs if he wants to stay around, but he didn't sign here to stay here. This was an audition.

[Raven]

Again, what is your problem with Castle? Lay it out. Tell us basketball wise why you don't like him.

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle.

[Arguendo]

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle.
I'll just leave this here:
As a starter-
21G 33.0MPG 16.1Pts 4.7R 3.2A 14.8FGA 6.7 3PA .415/.333/.733 with a .156 Free Throw rate- 24.5 yrs old, 5th season
29G 29.7MPG 15.1Pts 3.4R 4.2A 12.8FGA 4.9 3PA .419/.310/.748 with a .299 Free Throw rate- 20 yrs old, 1st season

[dn0774]

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle.

Not having a proper backup big, Vassell's big time regression, low iq Keldon, and Castle going through rookie struggles are all reasons why we are racking up losses. Even Wemby had a rough January which cost us some games. Throwing this entirely on Castle is a bit excessive. Hell, our best stretch this season (mid/late November) Castle was playing more minutes than he is now.

That being said, for a guy who was expected to make his mark on the defensive end first and foremost it has been a rough go. He bites on fakes and feints for too often, no discipline in that area. The best defensive players move their feet and stay between man and basket which is another thing he often fails to do (even with Wemby in the paint its bad outcomes to let your man get by). He has the physical tools to be a good, sturdy and versatile defender but we have only seen flashes of it at best.

[Arguendo]

Apparently hero mode equals getting to the line at the 27th* best clip in the NBA, but iso-dribbling for 18 seconds a possession isn't hero mode. One is a clearly superior defender, even if you think both are atrocious, one is clearly better and more versatile.
(*Amongst all PG/SG/SF, non-bigs)

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Paul would make a horrible coach.

[ffadicted]

There is so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start.

Julian is the best shooter on the team. He is rounding into a 3 and D role far quicker than LDN did. He would not be replacing Paul, Castle or Fox in the SL. Castle is outstanding with the ball in his hands, but Fox will be the primary ball handler. The two of them in the backcourt together will be amazing.

Tre was shit. Glad he's gone. CP3 is old AF and is being worn out. Let him run the bench team and keep his wind for the playoffs if he wants to stay around, but he didn't sign here to stay here. This was an audition.

IDK if you remember last year, but our team without Tre on the floor was absolute dogshit. If we let go of CP3 we’re right back to that any minute Fox isn’t on the floor. Castle is def not ready to take on those duties. Like I said, I’d be fine with CP3 off the bench and that’d be ideal, but he might not be and we need him in the roster.

Happy to be proven wrong about Julian but despite his shooting I still he him as a liability on the court against starter level NBA players on good teams.

[scott]

Not having a proper backup big, Vassell's big time regression, low iq Keldon, and Castle going through rookie struggles are all reasons why we are racking up losses. Even Wemby had a rough January which cost us some games. Throwing this entirely on Castle is a bit excessive. Hell, our best stretch this season (mid/late November) Castle was playing more minutes than he is now.

That being said, for a guy who was expected to make his mark on the defensive end first and foremost it has been a rough go. He bites on fakes and feints for too often, no discipline in that area. The best defensive players move their feet and stay between man and basket which is another thing he often fails to do (even with Wemby in the paint its bad outcomes to let your man get by). He has the physical tools to be a good, sturdy and versatile defender but we have only seen flashes of it at best.


Apparently hero mode equals getting to the line at the 27th best clip in the NBA, but iso-dribbling for 18 seconds a possession isn't hero mode. One is a clearly superior defender, even if you think both are atrocious, one is clearly better and more versatile.

You guys are trying to have a logical conversation with a person who said "Devin is pretty darn good, consistently" and "Devin is a legit #2 and Keldon is a legit #3". They didn't say these things last year or even this past summer... these are things they typed within the last few weeks.

Save your time.

[spursparker9]

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle.

tbh I rather see Castle go hero mode than Vassell and Keldon go hero mode.

[Rosewood]

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle. Is this a serious take? What the hell dude…

[gilmor2002]

Is this a serious take? What the hell dude…

He is watching the wrong games from us all..

[Strategic]

Guess we’ll find out tomorrow. Fox is available

[Splits]

I already have multiple times. He's an atrocious defender at this stage and he hero modes with the ball in his hands.. Lots of talent for sure and i don't have a problem with his shooting, but there is a reason why we have been loosing so much, and it is castle.

LOOSING :lmao

You are a loser.
The Spurs have been losing.
Your wife's pussy is loose.
She's fucking another guy, which is why her pussy is loosing.

[Arguendo]

You guys are trying to have a logical conversation with a person who said "Devin is pretty darn good, consistently" and "Devin is a legit #2 and Keldon is a legit #3". They didn't say these things last year or even this past summer... these are things they typed within the last few weeks.
Save your time.
Thanks for the heads up, I'm mostly a lurker and don't pay that much attention to user names hahahah

[slick'81]

Speaking of cp3


https://youtu.be/c-IoVFb_w8k?si=Y3qrk1nUg7aOumsT

[Knoxxx]

Has OP not watched a single Spurs game since Jan 13, whereby Castle is averaging 18 PPG!?!

[cutewizard]

Castle should start, continue his development

We reward CP3 as Playing Assistant Coach now......

[Arguendo]

Shit I have seen the light and agree with Lebowen, Spurm and Kony

Fox/CP3
Castle/Vassell
Champ/Johnson
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Rebounding big or Bassey

Think I've been swayed on this too. This SL surrounds Fox+Castle with 3 of our 4 best shooters, provides better D and balance, and let's CP3 limit and lift DV/KJ/Sochan. That bench is actually a really great fit together with Paul orchestrating, CP3 & Vassell can hit the 3, Vassell & KJ can drive and push, Sochan/Bassey or C to be named better can board and clean up. D will be bad, but CP3 halts the pace for the 10ish min that lineup will play together.

That said, I'd rather CP3 be happy with his role given he came here and hugely accelerated our development, that's what the Spurs do, and that philosophy landed us Paul (got Graham to play ball which got us a 2nd, got Barnes to waive his kicker, so many examples- that just 2024 offseason- it pays to be the franchise that does right by its players), so if he's happier playing the first 5-7mpg with the starters it really doesn't matter, I'd still expect him to play 10ish min per with this lineup, just a matter of when in-game.

[scott]

Speaking of cp3


https://youtu.be/c-IoVFb_w8k?si=Y3qrk1nUg7aOumsT

Even if Giannis did come available like some folks are hoping... I don't think he's coming here :lol

[heyheymymy]

Think I've been swayed on this too. This SL surrounds Fox+Castle with 3 of our 4 best shooters, provides better D and balance, and let's CP3 limit and lift DV/KJ/Sochan. That bench is actually a really great fit together with Paul orchestrating, CP3 & Vassell can hit the 3, Vassell & KJ can drive and push, Sochan/Bassey or C to be named better can board and clean up. D will be bad, but CP3 halts the pace for the 10ish min that lineup will play together.

That said, I'd rather CP3 be happy with his role given he came here and hugely accelerated our development, that's what the Spurs do, and that philosophy landed us Paul (got Graham to play ball which got us a 2nd, got Barnes to waive his kicker, so many examples- that just 2024 offseason- it pays to be the franchise that does right by its players), so if he's happier playing the first 5-7mpg with the starters it really doesn't matter, I'd still expect him to play 10ish min per with this lineup, just a matter of when in-game.

Solid assessment and I agree. Appreciate your thoughts here.

And yeah, maybe we do start with CP3/Fox/Castle for the first shift and like I think scott said, pull CP3 quick and slide Fox down to PG with Castle and Champ while still keeping the initial Barnes/Wemby front court for a bit. Where is Chinook or scott with those minutes tables to show how to stagger substitutions.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Frankly, he should bench Sochan who has been playing like ass.

CP3 / Fox / Castle / Barnes / Wemby

Stagger minutes with Fox/Castle off the bench, with KJ / Vassell / Sochan / Bassey


I know that makes for a terribly small lineup, but we still have Wemby and Jeremy is doing more harm than good right now

We also can't expect Fox to come in Day 1 and understand the system or players around him, so having CP3 to run the show will be necessary imo

I’ll have what he’s having.

This is the right game plan. Paul can run the offense better than anyone else on the team. Let him start with Fox and sub freely. Castle can start at the three and then shift over.

Folks seem to quickly forget how terrible this team looked last year without a point guard. CP3 Deserves a little more respect.

[Knoxxx]

Fox is a PG yall are tripping balls. Fox off the bench more nonsense.

[rankingtear]

CP3 already playing with the second unit more lately it is probably him. He has no legs anymore compared to the first few months.

[Arguendo]

Fox is a PG yall are tripping balls. Fox off the bench more nonsense.
Huh? I guess you misread the question: Paul or Castle?

But the thread seems to be 99% Paul vs Vassell (or Champ) in SL- with Fox/Castle/Barnes/Wemby

I don't think a single person has suggested Fox off the bench
Maybe your thinking "Stagger minutes with Fox/Castle off the bench, with KJ / Vassell / Sochan / Bassey" but that still had Fox/Castle in the SL, talking about how to stagger minutes with bench guys.

[Slippy]

Ypu gotta bench Chris. Doesn't make sense at all to keep him as a starter.

You can tell Chris is showing signs of his age going by last months play. Keep him fresh and healthy . If spurs make playsoffs he could be a huge x factor off the bench.

Also don't stifle Steph Castles development . Its trending the right way since going back to start

[scott]

Here's kind of what I'm thinking. You could increase Jeremy's minutes by giving him some time at the 5 against small lineups.

Shit as I was about to post this I realized I left out Champ, which I don't actually want to do, but I'll go ahead and post it anyway. We're one Vassell or Keldon too heavy and it kind of just fucks everything up.

https://i.imgur.com/tRus000.png

[scott]

What I'd actually prefer if we could clear out one of Vassell or Keldon (everyone knows my preference, but I'll do one of each) would be one of these two (left is with Devin, right is with Keldon)

https://i.imgur.com/PhjEBez.png

[Arguendo]

Thanks scott!
That's pretty damn close to what I was thinking. With injuries/off-nights, I think most stay fairly close to their current avgs losing a min or 3, with Sochan getting 5+ of those C minutes w/Keldon at the 4, and Castle getting a deserved bump.
But this makes a great case to move Keldon plus 52 2nds for Herb Jones. Log-jam solved. Go do it BWright!

[jiggy_55]

Honestly if I'm CP3, I'm the veteran here and I would be the one to go to the coach and tell him start Fox and Castle and I'll come off the bench. Knowing coach won't have the balls to do that from day 1. Not sure CP3's pride would allow him to do this, but it is the right thing to do in my opinion. Let the young guys go and gel together and he will still probably play a good 25mpg a night anyway down from his season average of 29. He gets all of Tre Jones minutes and splits his time on the court mostly between sharing the court with Castle and Fox.

I doubt he wants to be traded unless there's a big chance for him with a major contender which I don't personally see happening, I feel he enjoys it here and has been a happy Spur so far and should be looking forward to staying here another year or so and trying to mentor and win with this group and with the addition of Fox we should be a much improved team, if not this season then next season definitely.

[onechance87]

bench vassell untill he starts playing good.

[Raven]

Not having a proper backup big, Vassell's big time regression, low iq Keldon, and Castle going through rookie struggles are all reasons why we are racking up losses. Even Wemby had a rough January which cost us some games. Throwing this entirely on Castle is a bit excessive. Hell, our best stretch this season (mid/late November) Castle was playing more minutes than he is now.

That being said, for a guy who was expected to make his mark on the defensive end first and foremost it has been a rough go. He bites on fakes and feints for too often, no discipline in that area. The best defensive players move their feet and stay between man and basket which is another thing he often fails to do (even with Wemby in the paint its bad outcomes to let your man get by). He has the physical tools to be a good, sturdy and versatile defender but we have only seen flashes of it at best.

i'm not, it gets misunderstood, because since he's new, i tend to speak more about him than other guys. It's just more interesting, that's all. I think Castle has everything to be a great pg defender, but when in the first quarter about 30ish points from the opposition are scored in your face, it's safe to say you're not quite there yet..

[heyheymymy]

Great way to visualize it. Thank you for the tables, scott. Appreciate your time throwing that together. Actually noticing some pretty good positional balance since the Fox trade. Just need a bonafide backup big situation.

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz5n7OvkaTA

Just to share. :bobo

Castle's really remind of Nephew based on his talking tone :lol

[Ice009]

I watched that video earlier, but thanks for posting it. He smiles a lot more than Kawhi. I think he's similar to Kawhi in that they both live and breathe basketball. You might be right about the talking tone. I do think they both have personality (I always thought that Kawhi doesn't open up unless he knows you), but since I don't know either of them at all, I can't say if one is easier to talk to than the other, or if one has more personality than the other. Stephon seems a lot more approachable, though.
Having said that, I like Steph's personality. He comes off as having a huge passion for basketball and also being an easy going/good guy. Hopefully Stephon and De'Aaron and also Victor mesh well on and off the court.

[spursparker9]

Fuck Mitch...

Saw the post game interview where a reporter asked if this will be the future starting lineup and he acknowledged.

I knew he don't dare to bench CP3.