On This Season And Looking Ahead To The Off Season

[TD 21]

Since Wembanyama's diagnosis was obviously the final nail in the coffin.

They'll mostly be absolved of external blame due to the health status of Popovich and Wembanyama, but this season has been an unmitigated disaster.

The offense was only functional with a 39 year old initiating it and the defense was only functional with the future GOAT defensive anchor backstopping it.

Otherwise, not a single young or youngish player showed marked improvement (you could argue Sochan, but not with his biggest weakness). In fact, most regressed. The atrocious amateur scouting and development of the past three quarters of a decade remains.

The excuses/reasons for the constant ineptitude end the moment this season does. Presuming relative health for Wembanyama and Fox, it's playoffs or bust and the organization should (but won't) own it immediately at the onset of the off season.

The obvious needs are size, shooting and toughness, but here's some questions (and a few answers) I have . . .

Who starts between Sochan and Castle? Probably Sochan. The starters desperately need more size, he needs a floor spacing rim protector alongside and since he'll be tasked with defending POA 1-4 by default, also a wing-forward who can defend up.

Can Castle handle primary creation duties off the bench? Probably not, but either way he's likely to be in line for it, given the investment made in their signed top three guards and various other needs.

Did Vassell's surgeries change the trajectory of his career or were they just a bump in the road that a healthy off season/training can solve? If they believe it's the former . . .

Does Vassell or Johnson get traded to balance the roster? They'd be selling low obviously and I'll believe a significant trade that they weren't nudged into when I see it.

If not, what is the plan for the front court and how do they intend to structure it? Continue to exclusively play wing-forwards at the 4 or with the league shifting back to more two big lineups, target a combo-hybrid big?

If the 1sts land in the projected range, do they get consolidated or one traded for a future pick(s) to replenish some of what was sent out in the Fox trade?

Do they think outside the box and utilize one to target an otherwise unavailable, cost controlled young veteran who can help now?

[scott]

Thanks OP, I think this is a good meta thread topic for the doldrums of yet another meaningless final stretch of the season for our Spurs.

I presume the "they" you refer to in your second line is the Front Office/organization at large? I agree with you on that. I think they'll be largely given a pass by everyone involved.

Right now I think there is only a 40% chance we see a coaching change this offseason, and a 60% chance that it's either Pop back as HC to start next season, or Mitch still with an interim tag, awaiting Pop's maybe-return.

I also think there is a very strong possibility next year that the roster is essentially just run-it-back without CP3 and with two rookies and maybe some turnover at the end of the bench. It would be a 0% surprise to me if this is our opening day roster:

PG: Fox, Wesley
SG: Vassell, Castle, Branham
SF: Johnson, Champagnie
PF: Barnes, Sochan
C: Wemby

That's 10 guys. Add two rookies, maybe even three if we use our SRP. Then just some cheap backup bigs.

The rationale given by the team, and slurped up by Sniffers world wide, is that we made major additions in Fox and two FRPs. The FriendshipCore of Vassell, Keldon and Sochan showed promise at the end of the season (whether or not they actually do) and we shouldn't give up on them.

Someone please tell me there is no way you see this happening... because I can totally see this happening.

[dn0774]

I can only hope Pop has the strength to see that his time as an NBA coach has reached its conclusion and to pass the baton off to the best candidate after an exhaustive coaching search/recruitment is conducted. Pop still has wisdom to share but it can be done from another role in the organization. If we run it back with interim Mitch or Pop it will tell me they aren’t serious about contending. Pop should learn from Ruth Bader Ginsburg about holding on to the reins for too long.

[spursistan]

Glad you are finally coming around the idea that coaching is major issue for this team TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) :tu. I mean I agree with you, that in this league, when all things are more or less equal, talent (elite one) carries the day irrespective of the coaching variable. But at the developmental/formative level it still matters. I would even argue they've failed to unlock Wemby as much as they should in his sophomore season.


They story of this so-called improvement this season was the product of Wembanyama going on a torrid 7-week run-- from the first week of Nov until the second Denver game-- playing at essentially Top 5 level (all relevant adv metrics bore that out.. EPM, BPM etc..) and Paul proving he still has something left in the tank to floor-raise an offense to respectability. The moment both dropped off; the team cratered in their wake.


In a way, we really lucked out with the timing of Wembanyama’s diagnosis having already secured Fox, gotten ENOUGH of a look at the supposed original young core (Johnson, Vassell, Sochan), and seen the inadequacy of the crew/committee subbing in for Pop in what was trending somewhat like a 'lost season'. It would have been two if a laboring Wembanyama fell down with the DVT during Euro Basket or in a futile attempt to chase the play-in in mid April..

[Robz4000]

Thanks OP, I think this is a good meta thread topic for the doldrums of yet another meaningless final stretch of the season for our Spurs.

I presume the "they" you refer to in your second line is the Front Office/organization at large? I agree with you on that. I think they'll be largely given a pass by everyone involved.

Right now I think there is only a 40% chance we see a coaching change this offseason, and a 60% chance that it's either Pop back as HC to start next season, or Mitch still with an interim tag, awaiting Pop's maybe-return.

I also think there is a very strong possibility next year that the roster is essentially just run-it-back without CP3 and with two rookies and maybe some turnover at the end of the bench. It would be a 0% surprise to me if this is our opening day roster:

PG: Fox, Wesley
SG: Vassell, Castle, Branham
SF: Johnson, Champagnie
PF: Barnes, Sochan
C: Wemby

That's 10 guys. Add two rookies, maybe even three if we use our SRP. Then just some cheap backup bigs.

The rationale given by the team, and slurped up by Sniffers world wide, is that we made major additions in Fox and two FRPs. The FriendshipCore of Vassell, Keldon and Sochan showed promise at the end of the season (whether or not they actually do) and we shouldn't give up on them.

Someone please tell me there is no way you see this happening... because I can totally see this happening.

I absolutely see all of that happening tbh. Also wouldn't shock me if Wemby is forced into retirement and the franchise is sunk.

[John B]

Wemby is back with a vengeance, pissed and hungrier than ever after missing out on DPOY, and the playoffs again! He didn’t plan his NBA career to go like this. The FO will appease its franchise player and will go ALL IN agreeing to all Wemby’s demands! Will target a PF/C to help, getting rid of Brahnam and any of Sochan/Keldon/Vassell in the process. Silver will reward the Spurs a top 4 pick, even maybe Cooper Flagg. Will go WCF next year losing to OKC. But will win it all the following year.

[Frenchfred]

I don't think that they'll run with the same team. They have to optimize salaries while Wemby and Castle are on cheap deals. They need to spend the money now and get some decent players. Of course they need to get rid of Vassel and potentially Johnson

[The Truth #6]

Good thoughts. I see CP3 returning because he wants to hoop and the team won't tell him no. I expect minimal to change. But we'll see. They got rid of Zach, which showed skill and sanity, so might be a disconnect/power vacuum between Wright and then Pop on the sidelines and Mitch lost in the middle. Hard to say being on the outside.

[ambchang]

I’m basically giving up until we get an overhaul in coaching, player development and the front office, in that order.

[Ice009]

I absolutely see all of that happening tbh. Also wouldn't shock me if Wemby is forced into retirement and the franchise is sunk.

I don't even want to talk about this at all as I hope he's OK and there is no issues going forward with what happened. Anyway, do you mean because of health issues? Otherwise, Victor will be on another team before he's "forced into retirement."

[J_Paco]

They need shooting, size and defense in that order, IMO.

A cheap, rebounding specialist would be very helpful as well as not playing small line ups so often.

[Robz4000]

I don't even want to talk about this at all as I hope he's OK and there is no issues going forward with what happened. Anyway, do you mean because of health issues? Otherwise, Victor will be on another team before he's "forced into retirement."

Health issues. Hoping it really is just a one-off but you don't fuck around with blood clots tbh.

[DPG21920]

I think there will be significant change this off season.

[J_Paco]

I think there will be significant change this off season.

Yeah, they've hit 'fast-forward' with the Fox trade (and his likely extension) so they need to start going 'all-out.'

I wanted a more gradual rebuild, but Wemby's health issue proves that it's now or never with such a unique (body type) player.

I just don't want them to make two or three 'bad moves' (or moves that don't fully pan out) and end up on the treadmill like New Orleans.

[scott]

I’m afraid that a complete revamp of the staff and the roster is going to need another full year of feeling out. We thought we were a year behind Houston, but it feels like more than that at this point, even with the Fox acquisition.

[Ice009]

Health issues. Hoping it really is just a one-off but you don't fuck around with blood clots tbh.

Yeah, OK, thanks. I hope it is too. I thought you might have also been referring to the team building around him being so bad, that it might take it's toll physically on him, and in turn, shortening his career. That's why I was saying he won't stick around for that if the Spurs can't get it together and put a very good team and coaches around him.

[Atl Spur]

I think there will be significant change this off season.

This^.

[slick'81]

There better be significant changes or its another wasted wemby season

[poopbox]

Logic would tell you that this is the off season you step on the gas and shed the dead weight because Fox didn't come here to play for a worse team than he left, and you are going to no doubt max him. Him and Victor give you two win now players and you don't "rebuild" with two all nba caliber players on your team. This should be the biggest off season in spurs history where they cast off all the dead weight, bring in new players, and cash in some more of their draft capital to trade for maybe another really good player or two. Once you enter "win now" mode draft picks are almost useless, which is why most teams that are trying to win trade their picks, because if some 19 year old is a major player on your team, he is either a generational player like Victor is or your team is not very good. You look at Boston, Denver, Cleveland, New York, Bucks. All teams who are trying to win a title. They all have one thing in common, they traded virtually ever pick they have to build a team they think can compete at the highest level. So what should be happening this year is that the spurs trade Keldon, Devin, and Sochan, who are clearly NOT winning players, for players who are winning players, or who are just better. Getting rid of one of these guys and bringing in say Bruce Brown would be an example.

But...the spurs front office doesn't operate logically. They operate like pussies. Victor fell in their lap, so I can't give them to much credit for that. Fox is only here cause he wants to play with Victor AND because Rich Paul told other teams it didn't matter if they traded for Fox to get his bird rights he would still leave in free agency for the spurs next season. So I can't give Wright to much credit for the Fox trade because Rich Paul scared every other team off and so Wright was able to dictate terms. That is the only time this front office has done anything is when they can dictate terms. When they can't do that they have failed at everything. Drafting players, developing players, trades. And they won't be able to dictate terms in free agency. If they want Naz Reid they are going to have to cash him out because if they won't somebody else will. If they want Bruce Brown it will cost more than they probably want to play because he has proven he can be a big part of a title team so most teams who have any cap space and are trying to win are going to be trying to get him. This has to be the off season the spurs stop being cheap, stop being pussies, stop waiting for stuff to fall in their lap, and make some deals either in free agency or through trades for some real actual good nba players. They haven't done that in 6 years so I will believe it when I see it.

And pop has to go. No nba player wants to play for a 70 something year old coming off a stroke and 6 straight losing seasons. The first thing the Spurs need to do is get an actual nba head coach that nba players would want to or don't mind playing for. Who am I kidding I think it's all but guaranteed Mike Brown is the next coach, which is why Fox is here. If Pop is actually the coach of this team opening night aint no point in watching one game next year whole season will be a disaster.

[PhantomDashCam]

The team desperately needs an identity.
I’m all for starting both Sochan and Castle next season. It’s not like we’ve been lighting it up from three anyway.

I also want to see some genuine creativity in Defensive sets.
Team should absolutely have been trying out some zone, even something crazy like a 2-1-2 with Wemby as the 1.

Agree though TD with the overall sentiment of the thread.
Lack of improvement and in some ways regression is uncomfortable and dare I say unconscionable.

[cutewizard]

Wemby is back with a vengeance, pissed and hungrier than ever after missing out on DPOY, and the playoffs again! He didn’t plan his NBA career to go like this. The FO will appease its franchise player and will go ALL IN agreeing to all Wemby’s demands! Will target a PF/C to help, getting rid of Brahnam and any of Sochan/Keldon/Vassell in the process. Silver will reward the Spurs a top 4 pick, even maybe Cooper Flagg. Will go WCF next year losing to OKC. But will win it all the following year.

.................................................. ..................

Rooting for this scenario

[cutewizard]

Start the recruitment now >>>>>>>

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n6pD02AdrE

[cutewizard]

He has the "gravitas" to be an NBA Head Coach, tbh

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMRXuJy16s

[Russo21]

Should shut Fox down and get the surgery asap so he's ok for training camp if possible. With the finger bothering him, while he's been with the Spurs he's averaging 19.6ppg (3rd lowest of his career) 42.8FG% (lowest since his rookie season) 26.83PT% (lowest of his career) -5 (worst since his rookie season) plus with the excitement of trading for him you don't want to put a bad taste in people's mouths. I'm not nitpicking, I'm excited to have him here but without Victor the rest of the season I don't see the point in putting off surgery.

It's not like Victor is there for them to grow chemistry together. And a lot of the team likely won't be back next year so no point building chemistry. So I'm definitely an advocate of shutting him down asap.

There is very likely mass changes coming this off-season probably starting from the coach all the way down to the 2 high draft picks and likely a few trades. So I hope he sits it out soon enough. There's just no point

[John B]

Start the recruitment now >>>>>>>

-------------------------------------------------------------


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n6pD02AdrE

Hurley is a good candidate George Spurs head coach

[stnick2261]

I’m afraid that a complete revamp of the staff and the roster is going to need another full year of feeling out. We thought we were a year behind Houston, but it feels like more than that at this point, even with the Fox acquisition.

I really hope we are not "feeling out" any more. We need to commit to bringing in some new players and bring in a coach where you can say, "These are your guys. It's up to you to make them play well together."

This was the last year I was (not rooting for losses but) accepting of losses for a good draft pick. I really hope to see some changes over the summer. By next year I want to feel sad at a loss and really get excited for game days.

[ginobilized]

Great thread, thanks for posting!

I'll preface this with being a bit pessimistic and as one who is not seeing the bigger picture here in a realistic way. I've lost the plot on the Spurs goals and methods.

These are the more meta concerns that I'm having:

1.) What is the Spurs System? Was it really just Pop, mostly?
2.) How much data do the Spurs need to see that whatever they are doing is not working on so many levels?
3.) Will bringing in more youthful talent improve a team with systemic issues?
4.) Why do we pass on athleticism and height and get so outplayed by teams with, wait for it..........athleticism and height? Do the Spurs FO and coaches think that they can coach up shorter, less athletic players? If so, maybe look at some data.
5.) When will it be time to bring in a fresh coach and system?
6.) Lastly, will it be too late when the Spurs finally move toward a fresh start?

Please don't tell me to step off the ledge. I'd love to hear how others are contextualizing this season and what the system here really is.

[exstatic]

Great thread, thanks for posting!

I'll preface this with being a bit pessimistic and as one who is not seeing the bigger picture here in a realistic way. I've lost the plot on the Spurs goals and methods.

These are the more meta concerns that I'm having:

1.) What is the Spurs System? Was it really just Pop, mostly?
2.) How much data do the Spurs need to see that whatever they are doing is not working on so many levels?
3.) Will bringing in more youthful talent improve a team with systemic issues?
4.) Why do we pass on athleticism and height and get so outplayed by teams with, wait for it..........athleticism and height? Do the Spurs FO and coaches think that they can coach up shorter, less athletic players? If so, maybe look at some data.
5.) When will it be time to bring in a fresh coach and system?
6.) Lastly, will it be too late when the Spurs finally move toward a fresh start?

Please don't tell me to step off the ledge. I'd love to hear how others are contextualizing this season and what the system here really is.

How are you seeing this team lacking athleticism and height? If anything, PATFO are lured by those two qualities and overlook poor shooting.

[ginobilized]

How are you seeing this team lacking athleticism and height? If anything, PATFO are lured by those two qualities and overlook poor shooting.

I see us playing undersized players out of position for a while now.

CP3 6'
Vassell 6'4" SF
Sochan 6'8" C
KJ 6'4" PF

Off the top of my head, HOU, MEM, DET even NO are killing us with their height and athleticism.
And, by no means am I even implying that shooting isn't also lacking. That's horrible, too.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean we are getting Flagg and then signing Naz Reid in the offseason. Our starting 5 is Fox, Castle, Reid, Flagg, Wemby and our bench is CP3, Barnes, Sochan, Vassell and Wolf. We explore options for KJ to be traded to the Pistons

[LeBowen]

We explore options for KJ to be traded to the Pistons

Pistons are good now, they'd have no interest in a scrub like Keldon.

[cutewizard]

I mean we are getting Flagg and then signing Naz Reid in the offseason. Our starting 5 is Fox, Castle, Reid, Flagg, Wemby and our bench is CP3, Barnes, Sochan, Vassell and Wolf. We explore options for KJ to be traded to the Pistons


Best dream scenario but......probably top four pick?

[KobesAchilles]

Pistons are good now, they'd have no interest in a scrub like Keldon.
Meh it’s my speaking it into existence scenario :lol

[Frenchfred]

I mean we are getting Flagg and then signing Naz Reid in the offseason. Our starting 5 is Fox, Castle, Reid, Flagg, Wemby and our bench is CP3, Barnes, Sochan, Vassell and Wolf. We explore options for KJ to be traded to the Pistons

If we get Flagg, I would not go after Reid as he is a PF/C and he would be really expensive for a backup. Fox, Castle, Barnes, Flagg, Wemby is actually not too bad. Then we need a backup center and another combo guard and of course unload Vassel's contract.

[TDomination]

The fact that we got Fox gives me hope that the front office will do what they need to, to build a good team around Wemby this offseason.
It was fair for them to try and be sure what they had in Vassell, Johnson, Sochan will work or not alongside Wemby.
And the answer obviously is a resounding NO.

I can't say what the answer is but its definitely not these 3. Of the 3, i would keep Sochan, thats it. But probably on a bench role.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think there will be significant change this off season.

Me too, or if not significant at least some move made to get that third fringe star. The Fox move happened quickly, I think the FO is aware that they need to accelerate the timeline. Most worried about the coaching.

[TimDunkem]

I see us playing undersized players out of position for a while now.

CP3 6'
Vassell 6'4" SF
Sochan 6'8" C
KJ 6'4" PF

Off the top of my head, HOU, MEM, DET even NO are killing us with their height and athleticism.
And, by no means am I even implying that shooting isn't also lacking. That's horrible, too.
You can get away with that on the wing these days. Problem is most of our perimeter players cannot do anything well. Fox, CP3, and Castle are fine, but KJ and Vassell have been disappointments. We just need more talent and depth there overall. Someone who can hit a fucking 3 maybe? :lol

They definitely need more size and athleticism in the frontcourt though. Sochan should never be more than a spot minute, energy big off the bench. He sucks. Unlike most of the great teams, we do not have a versatile, athletic big. It would be nice to have one, preferably with size, and a 3rd string center.

[scott]

I really hope we are not "feeling out" any more. We need to commit to bringing in some new players and bring in a coach where you can say, "These are your guys. It's up to you to make them play well together."

This was the last year I was (not rooting for losses but) accepting of losses for a good draft pick. I really hope to see some changes over the summer. By next year I want to feel sad at a loss and really get excited for game days.

I'm in full alignment with your perspective... I just already can envision the justification for doing very little with the roster over the offseason.

[rjv]

Thanks OP, I think this is a good meta thread topic for the doldrums of yet another meaningless final stretch of the season for our Spurs.

I presume the "they" you refer to in your second line is the Front Office/organization at large? I agree with you on that. I think they'll be largely given a pass by everyone involved.

Right now I think there is only a 40% chance we see a coaching change this offseason, and a 60% chance that it's either Pop back as HC to start next season, or Mitch still with an interim tag, awaiting Pop's maybe-return.

I also think there is a very strong possibility next year that the roster is essentially just run-it-back without CP3 and with two rookies and maybe some turnover at the end of the bench. It would be a 0% surprise to me if this is our opening day roster:

PG: Fox, Wesley
SG: Vassell, Castle, Branham
SF: Johnson, Champagnie
PF: Barnes, Sochan
C: Wemby

That's 10 guys. Add two rookies, maybe even three if we use our SRP. Then just some cheap backup bigs.

The rationale given by the team, and slurped up by Sniffers world wide, is that we made major additions in Fox and two FRPs. The FriendshipCore of Vassell, Keldon and Sochan showed promise at the end of the season (whether or not they actually do) and we shouldn't give up on them.

Someone please tell me there is no way you see this happening... because I can totally see this happening.

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[sfernald]

Is there any chance at all they cut Branham and Wesley to make room for the rookies coming on next year? It's really time to move on from these dead beats.

[Kevin]

I'd like to move on from CP3 and re-sign Tre Jones if he's open to it. He had a rough season but he's still a good backup PG who's fine with coming off the bench and he had great chemistry with Wemby. Bring back Tre on 3 year deal and let CP3 go. Tre is younger, should be fine with a bench role and everyone knows each other.

My realistic dream off season as of todays draft standings.

Draft a 4/5 tweener big with a three ball at 9.

Trade the 11 for Cam Johnson and the 27. Draft and stash at 27.

This draft allows the Spurs to move on from paying Sochan if he doesn't develop a three ball over the summer.

Re-sign Tre Jones and let CP3 walk.

Explore KJ and Dev's trade market. KJ's value is probably getting out of the final year of his deal plus one or two second rounders in exchange for waivable player(s). Not sure what Dev's value even is right now coming off such a bad season. He's a sell low guy right now. Better off keeping him around and hope he rehabs his value.

Bring Mal and Wesley to camp and if they don't show improvement one or both of them should be waived before the season starts. Bring in some fresh prospects to occupy the bench.

[LeBowen]

No. We don't need or want any of the current or former losers.
No more family values or nice guys. Tre is a nice guy, but he's got no size and can't shoot.

Ideally, come 2026 the only current players who will be on the Spurs roster are Wemby, Fox and Castle.
Maybe Jeremy and Champ as cheap bench guys, everyone else has to go. We need to purge the losing culture.
That includes the coaching staff.

[dn0774]

It's a classic case, if you can label something as "feeling out" or "figuring out what we have" you can avoid expectations which means you can avoid failing to meet expectations which means you get to keep your job for a bit longer. Bringing Fox into the fold will hopefully snap the front office out of that mentality, Fox is clearly looking to be in a winning situation in the prime of his career.

I am curious what they do with their draft picks this year, specifically the lower of the two 1st rounders we have (probably the Hawks pick). They could consolidate both 1st rounders and try to move up a couple spots or trade the lower pick for a win now player. If they punt it into the future (20131 style) that will tell me they are shying away from trying to truly contend next season.

[DPG21920]

I would not at all be surprised to see one or more of Dev+Keldon+Sochan traded this off season. If the Naz stuff turns out true, I can definitely see a sign and trade using a player from that pool to get it done.

[DPG21920]

I would not at all be surprised to see one or more of Dev+Keldon+Sochan traded this off season. If the Naz stuff turns out true, I can definitely see a sign and trade using a player from that pool to get it done.

[scott]

I would not at all be surprised to see one or more of Dev+Keldon+Sochan traded this off season. If the Naz stuff turns out true, I can definitely see a sign and trade using a player from that pool to get it done.

Is there "Naz stuff" beyond him opting out (which was predictable) and some online Sports Book putting the Spurs at the best odds to land him (like they seem to do with all players these days)? Like, has there been anything actually linking Naz and the Spurs?

[DPG21920]

Is there "Naz stuff" beyond him opting out (which was predictable) and some online Sports Book putting the Spurs at the best odds to land him (like they seem to do with all players these days)? Like, has there been anything actually linking Naz and the Spurs?

Nope - just the speculation

[TD 21]

I said toughness, but meant more so physicality and strength. Johnson and Castle are the only ones with those attributes in their preferred rotation and the former's is often mitigated by playing out of position. Teams, especially big, physical, athletic ones, just play through these string beans.

Identity or lack thereof is a major issue. This team is mediocre - bad at virtually everything because the only requirement is to come off as a perceived choir boy.

They've mostly targeted defense first and sometimes only with their 1st round picks, yet failed to build a good defensive team because they ignore outlier physical tools and play making on that side of the ball.

I'm also not convinced the Fox trade accelerated the timeline or means more significant moves are coming now that they have most of a core set. They were nudged into it and the price was too good to pass up.

I could easily see them thinking adding 1-2 1sts, replacing Paul's rotation spot with a big, mostly shifting others down to their more natural positions and beginning to build continuity is sufficient.

Wright should do a "state of the franchise" address at the end of the season and start by making it clear that this season was unacceptable and dismiss the excuses and x more wins despite it that'll inevitably follow from the sycophant local media.



Glad you are finally coming around the idea that coaching is major issue for this team TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) :tu. I mean I agree with you, that in this league, when all things are more or less equal, talent (elite one) carries the day irrespective of the coaching variable. But at the developmental/formative level it still matters. I would even argue they've failed to unlock Wemby as much as they should in his sophomore season.


They story of this so-called improvement this season was the product of Wembanyama going on a torrid 7-week run-- from the first week of Nov until the second Denver game-- playing at essentially Top 5 level (all relevant adv metrics bore that out.. EPM, BPM etc..) and Paul proving he still has something left in the tank to floor-raise an offense to respectability. The moment both dropped off; the team cratered in their wake.


In a way, we really lucked out with the timing of Wembanyama’s diagnosis having already secured Fox, gotten ENOUGH of a look at the supposed original young core (Johnson, Vassell, Sochan), and seen the inadequacy of the crew/committee subbing in for Pop in what was trending somewhat like a 'lost season'. It would have been two if a laboring Wembanyama fell down with the DVT during Euro Basket or in a futile attempt to chase the play-in in mid April..

I'm skeptical that Johnson has the presence or personality needed to be a head coach, but not the aptitude. No one would sniff a coaching job in the best league in the world without being well versed in the x's and o's, which are mostly homogenous and personnel dependent, while the rotational decisions are mostly politics.

Developmentally, it's strictly based on results. I'm not naive enough to think other teams player developmental staffs know something the Spurs one doesn't, but the bottom line they've failed miserably for three quarters of a decide.

Shooting in particular, but generally speaking, who's the last "find" or out of nowhere hit? Champagnie comes closest, but even he is just an average shooter and defender. He just stands out on this team because he's not abysmal at either or undersized.

[exstatic]

I'd like to move on from CP3 and re-sign Tre Jones if he's open to it. He had a rough season but he's still a good backup PG who's fine with coming off the bench and he had great chemistry with Wemby. Bring back Tre on 3 year deal and let CP3 go. Tre is younger, should be fine with a bench role and everyone knows each other.

My realistic dream off season as of todays draft standings.

Draft a 4/5 tweener big with a three ball at 9.

Trade the 11 for Cam Johnson and the 27. Draft and stash at 27.

This draft allows the Spurs to move on from paying Sochan if he doesn't develop a three ball over the summer.

Re-sign Tre Jones and let CP3 walk.

Explore KJ and Dev's trade market. KJ's value is probably getting out of the final year of his deal plus one or two second rounders in exchange for waivable player(s). Not sure what Dev's value even is right now coming off such a bad season. He's a sell low guy right now. Better off keeping him around and hope he rehabs his value.

Bring Mal and Wesley to camp and if they don't show improvement one or both of them should be waived before the season starts. Bring in some fresh prospects to occupy the bench.

Can’t do it. That loophole has been closed. You have to wait a minimum of a year before you can re-sign a player that you traded away.

[exstatic]

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As big a Pop fan as I am, he needs to be on the sideline or out of the picture next fall.

[scott]

Can’t do it. That loophole has been closed. You have to wait a minimum of a year before you can re-sign a player that you traded away.

We went through this before with Jak... this is not true. Tre can re-sign with the Spurs this summer if he wants because he is a Free Agent. The loophole applies to players traded and waived. Likewise, the Spurs could have signed Doug after trading him.

Edit: Source, Q101 of the CBA Faq:

A team cannot reacquire a player it traded away during the same season (a season for this purpose being defined as starting on the first day of the regular season and ending on the last day of the Finals). If the player was traded between seasons (i.e., from the first day after the Finals to the last day prior to the start of the next regular season), it cannot reacquire the player prior to the end of the next season. If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first6. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, it can reacquire the player during the same season.

[Kevin]

Can’t do it. That loophole has been closed. You have to wait a minimum of a year before you can re-sign a player that you traded away.

It’s for every season not calendar year. He was traded this season and can be signed this summer when the new league calendar begins.

[rankingtear]

Great thread, thanks for posting!

I'll preface this with being a bit pessimistic and as one who is not seeing the bigger picture here in a realistic way. I've lost the plot on the Spurs goals and methods.

These are the more meta concerns that I'm having:

1.) What is the Spurs System? Was it really just Pop, mostly?
2.) How much data do the Spurs need to see that whatever they are doing is not working on so many levels?
3.) Will bringing in more youthful talent improve a team with systemic issues?
4.) Why do we pass on athleticism and height and get so outplayed by teams with, wait for it..........athleticism and height? Do the Spurs FO and coaches think that they can coach up shorter, less athletic players? If so, maybe look at some data.
5.) When will it be time to bring in a fresh coach and system?
6.) Lastly, will it be too late when the Spurs finally move toward a fresh start?

Please don't tell me to step off the ledge. I'd love to hear how others are contextualizing this season and what the system here really is.

It all comes down to what is Wemby on offense. They checked every box from post hub to pick and pop. Can't really post or screen well so the next thing is using him as
a sort of wing who can attack bent defense from the 2 downhill guards. All 3 system needs different complementary players. 1st need off ball movers, 2nd a pnr ballhandler and corner 3, 3rd iso and downhill guards.

[spursistan]

I said toughness, but meant more so physicality and strength. Johnson and Castle are the only ones with those attributes in their preferred rotation and the former's is often mitigated by playing out of position. Teams, especially big, physical, athletic ones, just play through these string beans.


Yep. A case in point. Rebound in traffic and attack the rack. Straight out bully ball. We haven't had someone doing it on a consistent basis since the Scumbag. I think Castle's craftiness and poise (beyond his years really) is what makes me more bullish on his ceiling even if the shooting never graduates above league average (it's certainly not as bad as scouting assumed it to be)

https://x.com/EricSal_7/status/1896416866454962618

[ginobilized]

I'll stick with my early season predictions that the Spurs will end up with around 34 wins. I'm not sure it will make much difference in the draft as they are not likely in the top 4. There might even be a win streak incoming. Not sure how much difference there is between the 6th pick and the 12th. I get the bigger picture intelligence of tanking, but, I think they'll win some games, like last season. Maybe they get lucky with the ping pong balls one more time, maybe not.

My bigger concern is that the Hawks win their play-in game. Either way, there is a lot to look forward to next season and I can see the Spurs making the leap to a 40+ win team next season.Even with the frustrations we've endured this season, adding Fox and seeing Castle emerge as Wemby has added dimensions to his game make this season a success. Add some height, shooting and rebounding to this roster and we are on our way.

[exstatic]

I'll stick with my early season predictions that the Spurs will end up with around 34 wins. I'm not sure it will make much difference in the draft as they are not likely in the top 4. There might even be a win streak incoming. Not sure how much difference there is between the 6th pick and the 12th. I get the bigger picture intelligence of tanking, but, I think they'll win some games, like last season. Maybe they get lucky with the ping pong balls one more time, maybe not.

My bigger concern is that the Hawks win their play-in game. Either way, there is a lot to look forward to next season and I can see the Spurs making the leap to a 40+ win team next season.Even with the frustrations we've endured this season, adding Fox and seeing Castle emerge as Wemby has added dimensions to his game make this season a success. Add some height, shooting and rebounding to this roster and we are on our way.

Unless the climb to 7 or 8, they have to win TWO games to make the playoffs.

[Dex]

As big a Pop fan as I am, he needs to be on the sideline or out of the picture next fall.

I'd be fine with Pop staying on as the president role, and let his coaching days be behind him.

For his own health, the stressors of coaching and traveling can't be good for a 76-year-old who suffered a stroke, but I think him being around the team and being a consultant for the next phase would be a benefit.

[ginobilized]

Unless the climb to 7 or 8, they have to win TWO games to make the playoffs.

Right!
I'd prefer they lose that first game, though.

[scott]

Unless the climb to 7 or 8, they have to win TWO games to make the playoffs.

The bad part is that their first game is going to be against a team that probably doesn't want to even be there (one of CHI/BKN/TOR), and ATL gets a de facto bye for that first game. I'm hoping that BI comes back for TOR soon and they decide to go for it because why the fuck not.

[exstatic]

The bad part is that their first game is going to be against a team that probably doesn't want to even be there (one of CHI/BKN/TOR), and ATL gets a de facto bye for that first game. I'm hoping that BI comes back for TOR soon and they decide to go for it because why the fuck not.

It’ll be Chicago, and Zach will drop a 30/15 on Okungwu.

[scott]

It’ll be Chicago, and Zach will drop a 30/15 on Okungwu.

That would be fantastic. Zollins greatest contribution to the Spurs, a final thank you for that contract he'd never get elsewhere.

[exstatic]

That would be fantastic. Zollins greatest contribution to the Spurs, a final thank you for that contract he'd never get elsewhere.

No one else was calling when his ankle was fucked up. Total Scott Hatteburg scenario.

[scott]

No one else was calling when his ankle was fucked up. Total Scott Hatteburg scenario.

I was referring to the 2/35.

[dn0774]

No one else was calling when his ankle was fucked up. Total Scott Hatteburg scenario.

"Zach, you're not a 3 point shooter anymore."