Better running make for Wemby long term, Castle or Harper?

[$pursDynasty]

They are both elite talents, one we have seen in the league for a year the other is just draft potential and projection but which is the better prospect for Wemby and the Spurs long term? They seem to overlap position wise so that means if the Spurs are going big game hunting Free agency wise one or the other would be a major chip to be included. I as a Spurs fan prefer to keep the better prospect so which prospect is that? Castle looked incredible his rookie year but does Harper have a higher ceiling?

[benefactor]

They don't overlap. The plan is to keep them both

[SpursFan86]

Harper has the higher ceiling and is the better prospect, but I see no reason we can’t keep both.

[CorrectCrusader]

I'll answer this question in 20 years when all three are hall of famers.

[Chinook]

Boozer when the Spurs get more lotto luck with the Hawks pick.

[CorrectCrusader]

Boozer when the Spurs get more lotto luck with the Hawks pick.

You'll get Nate Ament and like it

[spurraider21]

if you had to pick 1, its Harper. i dont think you have to pick 1

in fact the long term prospects of a Harper/Castle backcourt are exciting af

[mo7888]

They are both elite talents, one we have seen in the league for a year the other is just draft potential and projection but which is the better prospect for Wemby and the Spurs long term? They seem to overlap position wise so that means if the Spurs are going big game hunting Free agency wise one or the other would be a major chip to be included. I as a Spurs fan prefer to keep the better prospect so which prospect is that? Castle looked incredible his rookie year but does Harper have a higher ceiling?

Harper has the higher ceiling, bit it's way to early to tell of he's the better player. If they both become max-type players then I expect we'll move one. I don't see the Spurs being a 3-max player team.

[Guru of Nothing]

Watching these two compete ranks high on my list of things I want to see this season. This has to be a coach's dream. Kind of looking forward to finding out just how personal Castle might be taking the Harper hype.

[spurs10]

We will keep both...I'm hoping. Lucky us.

[Ariel]

We don't yet know, and that is exactly why we shouldn't trade any of the top 3 guards (Fox, Castle, Harper). Keep them together one year, and if it becomes obvious it's unsustainable, then you move one but with a much better idea of whom and for what.

[Dex]

I know they are labeled as guards, but both Castle and Harper are listed at 6'6 and could still grow. Castle also seems to play bigger than his height.

Just saying, having one of those two kinda fill the SF role isn't impossible. Not ideal, perhaps (as you'd want someone a few inches taller), but that is how they are going to have to function tbh

For reference, Kawhi was 6'7 and his height never seemed to be a problem (although he had crazy wingspan)

[Chinook]

if you had to pick 1, its Harper. i dont think you have to pick 1

in fact the long term prospects of a Harper/Castle backcourt are exciting af

Are you giving up on Wesley?

[dn0774]

I think Harper has some inherent on-ball instincts that can't be taught and Castle has higher defensive potential (though Harper will surprise people with his defensive event creation ie steals/tips). I think both are awesome prospects to have going forward, especially at their cost controlled salaries for the near term future.

[RC_Drunkford]

ah the early version of the stupid Parker vs. Ginobili thread is finally here. Let's hope it gets bumped for 15 years while we win multiple rings with both on the team.

[scott]

I know they are labeled as guards, but both Castle and Harper are listed at 6'6 and could still grow. Castle also seems to play bigger than his height.

Just saying, having one of those two kinda fill the SF role isn't impossible. Not ideal, perhaps (as you'd want someone a few inches taller), but that is how they are going to have to function tbh

For reference, Kawhi was 6'7 and his height never seemed to be a problem (although he had crazy wingspan)

I'm beginning the campaign.

Castle is a SF.

[bluebellmaniac]

Why not both?!

[spurraider21]

Are you giving up on Wesley?
:lol

i actually like Wesley and think he'll have a decent career as a bench guy who comes in and plays full court press. i'll enjoy having him around this season

[K...]

its sochan and you know that

[Mal]

They can both play next to each other. I need to see how Harper Castle Fox Wemby lineup would look like, and what kind of player with fit with them.

[John B]

I’m glad you’re not the GM or we’ve lost either Manu or Tony. Both can score and/or play the lead guard

[exstatic]

I'm beginning the campaign.

Castle is a SF.

He can certainly play minutes there. He has wing size. It’s nice to have a guy you can plugin at 3, who can also back up the 1 or 2.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Hopefully, they both will turn out great so that people can like one of the guards in the Big 3 and kinda-sorta root against the other one, as is Spur fan tradition.

[Ariel]

Boozer when the Spurs get more lotto luck with the Hawks pick.
That's one way I could see this ending up if the Harper situation becomes murky. Trading down this year feels like a massive downgrade, especially if you're doing so outside the top 4/5, so ven if Harper isn't delighted at the current guard logjam, you take him and ride it out for a year. If he performs up to expectations, you can probably pique the interest of a team with a high lottery pick next year, when you're expected to have several franchise caliber forwards, liike Boozer, Dybantsa, Ament, among others. Or you dangle Fox or Castle, whatever option is better.

[scott]

Twilight Zone scenario:

Spurs, with their collection of picks with Swaps attached (and the 27 ATL pick) continuously jump into places in the lottery that they don't deserve... but it is always at a spot where the only logical pick is for a point guard. It's the Basketball Gods ironic humor for giving us Wemby.

[baseline bum]

Harper has the higher ceiling, bit it's way to early to tell of he's the better player. If they both become max-type players then I expect we'll move one. I don't see the Spurs being a 3-max player team.

If it's a 30% max (Victor) and two 25% maxes (Harper + Castle) I think they'll keep it together with De'Aaron being traded in 3-4 years. A 30% and two 25% or even two 30% and a 25% on a cap raising 10% per year is a way different situation than Phoenix paying three 35% max deals on a stagnant cap where those contracts got worse every year from the player raises being higher than the cap bumps.

[The Truth #6]

I think the Big 3 era might be over. I'm thinking Victor plus the best of our point guards and get affordable role players. It would still be super expensive to get a team at least 8 deep. Saving draft capital for trades to keep reinventing every 3-4 years would probably be needed. It's not easy to do. In this new era you hope for a good 3-4 year run. Have to avoid mortgaging the future if possible. That's why I have no interest in going for a big trade now.

[mo7888]

If it's a 30% max (Victor) and two 25% maxes (Harper + Castle) I think they'll keep it together with De'Aaron being traded in 3-4 years. A 30% and two 25% or even two 30% and a 25% on a cap raising 10% per year is a way different situation than Phoenix paying three 35% max deals on a stagnant cap where those contracts got worse every year from the player raises being higher than the cap bumps.

In my mind it's more than just caps and aprons. It's more of allocation of funds. I just think they only want 2 max guys and use the rest to build out a roster and acquire picks from trading whichever one they move.

[scott]

In my mind it's more than just caps and aprons. It's more of allocation of funds. I just think they only want 2 max guys and use the rest to build out a roster and acquire picks from trading whichever one they move.

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

[mo7888]

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

That could be... it'll depend on how Castle does since his extension comes 1 year earlier, so he has less time to take over the Fox position (not necessarily the PG, but the 2nd best player)

[Ariel]

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.
We're probably getting too far ahead of ourselves if we're thinking about max extensions 4 years down the road, surely something would have to be done by then, but if in 3 years we're pondering this scenario, well, let's just say it'd be an awesome problem to have (multiple young players still on rookie scale contracts worthy of a max extension).

[mo7888]

We're probably getting too far ahead of ourselves if we're thinking about max extensions 4 years down the road, surely something would have to be done by then, but if in 3 years we're pondering this scenario, well, let's just say it'd be an awesome problem to have.

I think we all agree with that..

[scott]

We're probably getting too far ahead of ourselves if we're thinking about max extensions 4 years down the road, surely something would have to be done by then, but if in 3 years we're pondering this scenario, well, let's just say it'd be an awesome problem to have (multiple young players still on rookie scale contracts worthy of a max extension).

For sure. The "worst case" scenario (having to pay Castle and Harper max rookie extensions) would actually be quite a great scenario. I'm not worried about it.

[baseline bum]

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

The way they earn them is by becoming better than Fox. It's not set in stone that De'Aaron is going to be the second or even third option three years from now.

[paperboy77]

I don't know about elite. Castle, my second favorite Spur right now, seems to be a very good player but remember he did a lot of this for a shitty team. I think Castle... if things go right can be the Sean Elliott of the group. Not an all timer but crucial to a title team.

We don't know anything about Harper when it comes to the NBA so we'll have to wait. If anything we flip him him since he's a mystery for a giant return. (This should at least be considered.)

[baseline bum]

In my mind it's more than just caps and aprons. It's more of allocation of funds. I just think they only want 2 max guys and use the rest to build out a roster and acquire picks from trading whichever one they move.

IDK I think it becomes a real problem at year 9 when all of a sudden you're looking at paying 35% for Jaylen Brown after he made an All-NBA 2nd team and you're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. So third contract is when you're having to make really tough decisions. Second one you're probably thrilled to pay a 30% max deal if your 24 year old guy has made All NBA, won MVP, won DPOY, etc to qualify for that supermax. If they're at 25% max salaries meh, Vassell makes 83% of a 25% max right now.

[scott]

The way they earn them is by becoming better than Fox. It's not set in stone that De'Aaron is going to be the second or even third option three years from now.

Oh that's it? Cool, no problem.

[baseline bum]

I don't know about elite. Castle, my second favorite Spur right now, seems to be a very good player but remember he did a lot of this for a shitty team. I think Castle... if things go right can be the Sean Elliott of the group. Not an all timer but crucial to a title team.

We don't know anything about Harper when it comes to the NBA so we'll have to wait. If anything we flip him him since he's a mystery for a giant return. (This should at least be considered.)

I don't think I'm trading Harper for anything short of Giannis. Can't think of anyone else on the block that it's worth giving up on the upside of Harper and Giannis is the only sure thing vet seemingly available.

[baseline bum]

Oh that's it? Cool, no problem.

Also I think Castle can earn it largely on the defensive end. It's not inconceivable when you note the Spurs are already paying Vassell 83% of what a 25% max deal would be right now and he has never shown the upside Castle did this season.

[Knoxxx]

For sure. The "worst case" scenario (having to pay Castle and Harper max rookie extensions) would actually be quite a great scenario. I'm not worried about it.

Having 3 straight rookie of the years would really suck as too! Oh the horror!

[baseline bum]

I think the Big 3 era might be over. I'm thinking Victor plus the best of our point guards and get affordable role players. It would still be super expensive to get a team at least 8 deep. Saving draft capital for trades to keep reinventing every 3-4 years would probably be needed. It's not easy to do. In this new era you hope for a good 3-4 year run. Have to avoid mortgaging the future if possible. That's why I have no interest in going for a big trade now.

I don't. I expect OKC to be paying supermax to SGA and maybe JDub and 25% max to Holmgren while playing musical chairs with the role players. Hartenstein and Caruso are surely gone in a year or two, probably Dort too, but they'll just keep reloading with draft picks. Appears the Spurs will try to do similar with all the swaps they have from Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, Minnesota, and Sacramento. I do think that OKC core is built to contend for titles for another five years at least and the Spurs can have that kind of long run too if Harper ends up being the player he looks like he could become.

[mo7888]

IDK I think it becomes a real problem at year 9 when all of a sudden you're looking at paying 35% for Jaylen Brown after he made an All-NBA 2nd team and you're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. So third contract is when you're having to make really tough decisions. Second one you're probably thrilled to pay a 30% max deal if your 24 year old guy has made All NBA, won MVP, won DPOY, etc to qualify for that supermax. If they're at 25% max salaries meh, Vassell makes 83% of a 25% max right now.

I get that they can do it, I just think where this FO goes won't include paying 80-85% of the cap on just 3 players. I think they'll opt to spend 55% of the cap on 2 and use they other 45% to put players around them.

[baseline bum]

I get that they can do it, I just think where this FO goes won't include paying 80-85% of the cap on just 3 players. I think they'll opt to spend 55% of the cap on 2 and use they other 45% to put players around them.

Might as well trade Wemby to the Lakers and move the team already if that's the plan. More realistic is 80% of the cap to Wemby / Harper / Castle and then 45% of the cap to the supporting cast. Puts them into the luxury tax but not in the punitive aprons.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Twilight Zone scenario:

Spurs, with their collection of picks with Swaps attached (and the 27 ATL pick) continuously jump into places in the lottery that they don't deserve... but it is always at a spot where the only logical pick is for a point guard. It's the Basketball Gods ironic humor for giving us Wemby.

Sign me up for this. Wheeler dealer Brian Wright will take care of it.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think the Big 3 era might be over. I'm thinking Victor plus the best of our point guards and get affordable role players. It would still be super expensive to get a team at least 8 deep. Saving draft capital for trades to keep reinventing every 3-4 years would probably be needed. It's not easy to do. In this new era you hope for a good 3-4 year run. Have to avoid mortgaging the future if possible. That's why I have no interest in going for a big trade now.

this new era doesn't affect the Spurs since we have cheap ownership that never wants to pay the luxury tax anyway. The only teams affected by this are franchises like the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Knicks, Celtics, etc. where the owner doesn't care how much he spends.


I get that they can do it, I just think where this FO goes won't include paying 80-85% of the cap on just 3 players. I think they'll opt to spend 55% of the cap on 2 and use they other 45% to put players around them.

I already did the math on that. We should be save until 2032 with all 3 on the team. The cap will literally double until then. The Spurs will always have room for all 3. What's more important is that they have role players on good longterm contracts and don't overpay on them.


I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

one thing about this 3-guard rotation is that it will hurt their statlines, which could result into smaller extensions.

[poopbox]

TO early to tell. Possibly neither. Funny thing is when you look at the History of the league, the second or 3rd best player is rarely ever someone the team drafted. Out of the conference finals teams somewhere between 1 and 3 of their top 3 players were traded for or signed in free agency. Only team in recent memory to win chips with their top 3 being drafted by the team are spurs and warriors

Also people are seriously underrating Fox. For Castle or Harper to be even as good as him they would have to show the ability to be the best player on a team that was the 3rd seed. Castle hasn't remotely shown he could do that and Harper couldn't even lead Rutgers to a winning record.

[poopbox]

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

Well it's not about what they "earn" it's about what the market dictates they can get. If they know that other teams will pay them the max, why would they settle for anything less than that in San Antonio?

If we are talking about "earn" in the since that the Spurs can't mathematically pay Castle and Harper rookie max extensions because of the money invested in Victor and Fox, they can cause you can go over the cap to sign your own players, but obviously having 4 players on outright max contracts is going to completely destroy your cap. You won't even have a full MLE to work with if you did that.

NBA teams never pay a player more than they have to, and the market dictates what they have to, not the team itself. That's how business works.

[ambchang]

OKC is smart in how they are managing the new cap era, where there is one clear super max guy (SGA) and 2 high level max guys (Chet and J-dub), with a supporting group of interchangeable players that are smart, can shoot somewhat and can definitely defend. Then they have a bunch of picks to replace those players as they come along, either through drafting and development, or through trades (I-hart, Caruso). These players are not rare by any means, as long as they have a list of players who are given developmental opportunities and a clearly defined role, they could be found in later first or even second round picks comparatively easily.

The spurs have their super max guy (wemby) and now players are auditioning for the max roles. I’d argue with wemby, you may not even need two other max level guys, but only two 3rd option level players. Whether Harper and castle are those, we will see. But players like Vassell, keldon, and my favourite sochan are part of those rotation of peripheral players. Develop them if they could be, but trade them for picks or other useful pieces if they can’t show any ability to develop. I still don’t believe the spurs drafted a bunch of no talents where they CAN’T develop in a few years in the league, but a matter of poor development and role definition. At this level, these players are clearly some of the best in the world in terms of basketball abilities, they are also young and have room to grow. The basketball abilities and improvement capacities for players drafted by the spurs vs those drafted by OKC shouldn't be so drastically different to the point where OKC is batting at 60/70% while the spurs are batting at 0. There is randomness in success rate when players are this talented but underdeveloped comes into play, so there is luck involved. I refuse to believe the spurs are this unlucky while OKC is that lucky, there some scouting involved but overall it’s really development. You slot a kid to do a couple of things and they should be able to play that at a high level easily, this isn’t rocket science. But if you just throw a kid in the court and make them figure it out by getting over themselves it would be a disaster. These are not largely developed players when drafted, it’s not like they played four years of college with top level coaches to learn the game.

Anyways, the spurs don’t have that many picks so the management of that pipeline is crucial. If either castle or Harper hits, we will have a strong framework in place. Picks, whether first, second or undrafted will determine how long the team can play at a high level.

[Sugus]

I might be viewed as a Debbie Downer with this take, but I actually don't see a way for both Castle and Harper to earn max rookie extensions with Wemby and Fox being the #1 and #2 options. Maybe one of them can, but I'm not seeing how both do.

It's not a Debbie Downer but a realist outlook. Even with a salary cap increase, there's no room for all the contracts realistically without the Spurs being placed on the feared Second Apron.

I think everyone will start to see the writing on the wall during the next season, as Harper comes into his own -- there's no space on the team for all 3 guards to be featured. Sucks to be Fox, really, after he's burned his bridges with Sacramento to get here.

[exstatic]

It's not a Debbie Downer but a realist outlook. Even with a salary cap increase, there's no room for all the contracts realistically without the Spurs being placed on the feared Second Apron.

I think everyone will start to see the writing on the wall during the next season, as Harper comes into his own -- there's no space on the team for all 3 guards to be featured. Sucks to be Fox, really, after he's burned his bridges with Sacramento to get here.

You need high level guards to beat OKC, so we need to run this trio as long as possible.

[RC_Drunkford]

It's not a Debbie Downer but a realist outlook. Even with a salary cap increase, there's no room for all the contracts realistically without the Spurs being placed on the feared Second Apron.

I think everyone will start to see the writing on the wall during the next season, as Harper comes into his own -- there's no space on the team for all 3 guards to be featured. Sucks to be Fox, really, after he's burned his bridges with Sacramento to get here.

doesn't surprise me that you don't understand how the salary cap works, since you already lack basic comprehension when it comes to the english language.

[Sugus]

doesn't surprise me that you don't understand how the salary cap works, since you already lack basic comprehension when it comes to the english language.

Damn, get off my dick dude, I'm not fucking you even if you ask :lol

[Ariel]

It's not a Debbie Downer but a realist outlook. Even with a salary cap increase, there's no room for all the contracts realistically without the Spurs being placed on the feared Second Apron.

I think everyone will start to see the writing on the wall during the next season, as Harper comes into his own -- there's no space on the team for all 3 guards to be featured. Sucks to be Fox, really, after he's burned his bridges with Sacramento to get here.
That might be a thing one day, but I don't think that's next year. But if it becomes obvious Harper is the one, I'm sure you can find a destination both he and the Spurs would be comfortable with. Houston comes to mind.

[Sugus]

That might be a thing one day, but I don't think that's next year. But if becomes obvious Harper is the one, I'm sure you can find a destination both he and the Spurs would be comfortable with. Houston comes to mind.

No way I'm helping Houston get the dynamic scoring PG they need to level-up in the playoffs! They might not even need him if Amen develops as they hope, anyways.

But yeah, good problem to have as they say. Harper might also not develop as we all think, and overlap too much with Castle if neither improves their shooting, making the FO pivot into trading one of them instead of Fox.... Many things could happen.

[CGD]

Boozer when the Spurs get more lotto luck with the Hawks pick.

Sadly there is a legit shot that Atlanta is a playoff team in that shitty conference nullifying the upshot of that swap.

[RC_Drunkford]

Damn, get off my dick dude, I'm not fucking you even if you ask :lol

what? You don’t have one, you‘re pussy :lol

[scott]

It's not a Debbie Downer but a realist outlook. Even with a salary cap increase, there's no room for all the contracts realistically without the Spurs being placed on the feared Second Apron.

I think everyone will start to see the writing on the wall during the next season, as Harper comes into his own -- there's no space on the team for all 3 guards to be featured. Sucks to be Fox, really, after he's burned his bridges with Sacramento to get here.


My comment isn't even about the salary cap. Everyone is penciling in max deals for Castle and Harper and worrying about Fox's trade destination... but we've got a long way to go before we get there. Before we worry about this, one of Castle or Harper needs to be better than De'Aaron Fox, for starters. Fox is a Top 30 player in the NBA. This is by no means a shoo in (shout out: spurraider21). Fox will start declining as he ages, as all players do, but no one knows what that looks like just like no one knows what Castle or Harper's career arc will look like. But I do expect Fox to perform at a very high level for the next few years, in which case Castle and Harper will naturally have fewer opportunities to showcase and prove themselves worthy of this theoretical max extension.

By comparison, we have a team like OKC where JDub and Chet are clearly the 2nd and 3rd guy... but I think Williams is still a fringe max guy and (in my opinion) Chet is not a max guy. If there was another player above them in the pecking order the last few years, I think their path towards a max would look even more difficult.

This isn't a bad thing for the Spurs by any means (though I think this is certainly on player's minds... we all like to assume that all these guys are willing to sacrifice millions of dollars for winning... but we forget this is their job. How many of us on this forum are willing to sacrifice their paycheck so their companies can "win"? At the end of the day... these guys need to look out for #1).

[Sugus]

what? You don’t have one, you‘re pussy :lol

Bend over, I'll show you a pussy...

[Sugus]

My comment isn't even about the salary cap. Everyone is penciling in max deals for Castle and Harper and worrying about Fox's trade destination... but we've got a long way to go before we get there. Before we worry about this, one of Castle or Harper needs to be better than De'Aaron Fox, for starters. Fox is a Top 30 player in the NBA. This is by no means a shoo in (shout out: spurraider21). Fox will start declining as he ages, as all players do, but no one knows what that looks like just like no one knows what Castle or Harper's career arc will look like. But I do expect Fox to perform at a very high level for the next few years, in which case Castle and Harper will naturally have fewer opportunities to showcase and prove themselves worthy of this theoretical max extension.

By comparison, we have a team like OKC where JDub and Chet are clearly the 2nd and 3rd guy... but I think Williams is still a fringe max guy and (in my opinion) Chet is not a max guy. If there was another player above them in the pecking order the last few years, I think their path towards a max would look even more difficult.

Ah, I see. Yeah, I just mentioned in the other thread, Harper rising to max-worthy level is far from a given yet - same goes for Castle, though I think his ROTY season has already earned him a rookie max extension unless he terribly shits the bed moving forward.

I don't see Chet going for anything less than a max tbh, be it OKC or another team that gives it to him. He's way too valuable an archetype, and a significantly productive player at that, to accept a deal below the max. It's great news for the Spurs and I hope to see OKC mismanage his extension and break up that core... But it's wishful thinking.


This isn't a bad thing for the Spurs by any means (though I think this is certainly on player's minds... we all like to assume that all these guys are willing to sacrifice millions of dollars for winning... but we forget this is their job. How many of us on this forum are willing to sacrifice their paycheck so their companies can "win"? At the end of the day... these guys need to look out for #1).

This is absolutely true, and a big reason I want to get Durant and make this team a contender ASAP. The only scenario I see Fox (or anyone) going for a discount is on the back of tangible playoff success for the Spurs. Especially considering Fox's ties to San Antonio, it would be the best possible outcome, while ensuring the Spurs have a solid contending present in Fox + Durant, and can also transition into the "future" of Castle + Harper (with Wemby being a constant, of course) in a few years.

It's high time to put some chips on the table.

[RC_Drunkford]

Ah, I see. Yeah, I just mentioned in the other thread, Harper rising to max-worthy level is far from a given yet - same goes for Castle, though I think his ROTY season has already earned him a rookie max extension unless he terribly shits the bed moving forward.



Like a rookie of the year award in 2025 warrants a max contract in 2028. What a dumbo :lmao

[exstatic]

Sadly there is a legit shot that Atlanta is a playoff team in that shitty conference nullifying the upshot of that swap.

There’s a better chance that Trae is elsewhere.

[south side spur]

Sadly there is a legit shot that Atlanta is a playoff team in that shitty conference nullifying the upshot of that swap.

Regardless of how shitty the Eastern Conference is perceived to be, the Hawks have just as much of a chance to be in the lottery again. It’ll be between the same teams for that 8th seed. Atlanta, Chicago, Miami and who knows, maybe Philadelphia will have Embiid, George and McCain all back and be in the Play-In. For as much as the Trae Young fanboys were whining about how losing Johnson was too much to overcome and how great the Hawks looked before his injury, his games missed don’t even compare to what Orlando and Philadelphia experienced. Atlanta isn’t leapfrogging any of the top 7 teams no matter how much Spurstalk loves Trae Young. I guess y’all are hoping Milwaukee falls off but that’s still just wishful thinking.

[mystargtr34]

Agree. Philly should jump Atlanta, I think Toronto makes a moderate leap with better health and Ingram addition. They could end up equal or better than Hawks record.

The only teams garuanteed to be worse than the Hawks are Washington, Charlotte, Brooklyn. In the West it’s only Utah.

Next years Hawks pick could be anywhere from 5-14 imo. I’m bullish on it.

[scott]

Just make sure we're better than ATL so the swap actually conveys, pls

[Sugus]

Like a rookie of the year award in 2025 warrants a max contract in 2028. What a dumbo :lmao

I told you already, bend down, I'll show you a dumbo :lol

[CGD]

Regardless of how shitty the Eastern Conference is perceived to be, the Hawks have just as much of a chance to be in the lottery again. It’ll be between the same teams for that 8th seed. Atlanta, Chicago, Miami and who knows, maybe Philadelphia will have Embiid, George and McCain all back and be in the Play-In. For as much as the Trae Young fanboys were whining about how losing Johnson was too much to overcome and how great the Hawks looked before his injury, his games missed don’t even compare to what Orlando and Philadelphia experienced. Atlanta isn’t leapfrogging any of the top 7 teams no matter how much Spurstalk loves Trae Young. I guess y’all are hoping Milwaukee falls off but that’s still just wishful thinking.

It’s a closer call. Orlando needs to fix its shooting woes, Milwaukee may lose its star, Philly is injured, Heat may land KD, and Boston’s financial situation (plus Tatums injury) makes them a wildcard.

I think our best outcome is we’re awesome, and ATL whiffs in the play-in again.

[RC_Drunkford]

I told you already, bend down, I'll show you a dumbo :lol

I guess that's what your father told you when you were younger :lol

[baseline bum]

My comment isn't even about the salary cap. Everyone is penciling in max deals for Castle and Harper and worrying about Fox's trade destination... but we've got a long way to go before we get there. Before we worry about this, one of Castle or Harper needs to be better than De'Aaron Fox, for starters. Fox is a Top 30 player in the NBA. This is by no means a shoo in (shout out: spurraider21). Fox will start declining as he ages, as all players do, but no one knows what that looks like just like no one knows what Castle or Harper's career arc will look like. But I do expect Fox to perform at a very high level for the next few years, in which case Castle and Harper will naturally have fewer opportunities to showcase and prove themselves worthy of this theoretical max extension.

By comparison, we have a team like OKC where JDub and Chet are clearly the 2nd and 3rd guy... but I think Williams is still a fringe max guy and (in my opinion) Chet is not a max guy. If there was another player above them in the pecking order the last few years, I think their path towards a max would look even more difficult.

This isn't a bad thing for the Spurs by any means (though I think this is certainly on player's minds... we all like to assume that all these guys are willing to sacrifice millions of dollars for winning... but we forget this is their job. How many of us on this forum are willing to sacrifice their paycheck so their companies can "win"? At the end of the day... these guys need to look out for #1).

I pencil them in at max just as a kind of worst case money wise to show that it's probably not going to be a problem with money until 29-30 (when Harper would be due an extension). At that point if Castle and Harper are max players then you have to trade either Fox or one of them since it would be nearly impossible to avoid the two aprons at that point with at least 108% of the cap invested in four players. So the Spurs have plenty of time to figure things out with the three of them.

[south side spur]

It’s a closer call. Orlando needs to fix its shooting woes, Milwaukee may lose its star, Philly is injured, Heat may land KD, and Boston’s financial situation (plus Tatums injury) makes them a wildcard.

I think our best outcome is we’re awesome, and ATL whiffs in the play-in again.

Atlanta has to fix their defensive woes. Atlanta might lose their star. The Hawks aren’t any more of a contender in the East than Chicago or Miami. This whole worst case scenario perspective of all the Eastern Conference except Atlanta in order to prop up Trae Young is strange. As far as us being awesome I’ve become disheartened with all the tanking in recent years, but the ping pong balls continue to go in our favor so it’s just about being patient. I think the Spurs and Hawks win totals will be within a few games again so it won’t make much of a difference. We sneak in as an 8th seed (hopefully) and Atlanta loses out in the Play In once again. I think that’s the most realistic outcome.

[xellos88330]

I think they both can be valuable staying here with the Spurs. There is no negative in keeping them both. I get that people can say that their positions overlap, but that isn't the way the game is played these days. There is still some potential for them to get taller, so they may be swappable at the 1-3 slots. All I am hoping for is a solid rebounder who can set mean picks. That will solve a lot of the Spurs issues from last season. Shooting 3's so much is only as effective as the opponents rebounding ability. If every missed 3 is rebounded by the defending team, then it's efficiency drops as a strategy imo. If that is combined with the ability of having a lineup featuring 3 ball handlers, the transition game could be sick af.

[tbdog]

Castles shooting is so bad.

[ambchang]

I’m not exactly sure where this desire to trad away one of castle or Harper came from. There has been plenty of two PGl lineups. Sometimes they work some times they don’t. Reality is that nobody knows who is the one or if they can work together.

Norm Nixon and magic won two titles together before Nixon was sent out for Scott (that worked out well). Harden and Westbrook or harden and CP3 sort of worked. White and holiday won a title. Kyrie and doncic worked surprisingly well even though you can argue kyrie is more a sg.

These two PG lineups usually works when one of the two is a big point. Both castle and Harper can big for a PG and castle didn’t even player point in college or in his rookie year.

I also remember the cavs panicked and shipped out Kevin Johnson because they already have mark price. They certainly could’ve showcased and increased the price for KJ prior to shipping him out

[scott]

This seems like a great opportunity to continue my propaganda campaign:

Castle is a SF

[ambchang]

Castle being a SF makes sense. He’s got the size and speed to play the position without giving up too much. The only draw back is that he will lose his size advantage over other PGs.

In my opinion castle playing PG at the end of the season is akin to sochan playing PG at the beginning of year two. It isn’t necessarily prepping him for the role but more to see what he can or cannot do in a decision making role. Castle passed the test while sochan didn’t. But to say castle is destined to be a PG based on those few games is a big stretch and I’d be really concerned if the spurs are actually thinking that.

While castle out up solid raw numbers during that stretch, his efficiency and +/- were dreadful. PG is a tough position to learn and castle did pretty well for a rookie. What was impressive though was that he was able to improve in decision as the experiment went on. With him as a secondary play maker, whether as a SG or SF, can only be a positive.

I also am starting to think the importance of shooting is a bit overblown. First, the spurs were middle of the league in 3P shooting and attempts. Second, it’s not like players aren’t allowed to move when there are no shooters. Sure it’s tougher, but fox was never a great shooter playing for a team that was even worse than the spurs in 3 pt shooting and he can get in the paint at will. Castle attacked the paint just fine last year. Even spurstalk whipping boys sochan and Wesley were able to go in the paint at a decent clip, just that they werent that great finishing. Having players like fox, castle and Harper constantly applying pressure will wear all but the best defences down.

[CGD]

This seems like a great opportunity to continue my propaganda campaign:

Castle is a SF

100%
Dude has the size for it

[spursistan]

You don't trade Castle this soon. Here is why:

https://x.com/HoopMixOnly/status/1929523615067775191

I would even argue Castle looked more composed and imposing as a rookie than SGA. Harper and Castle is the ultimate "good problem to have" situation from a basketball standpoint. There is a 96 minutes per-game/82 games window to solve it..

[scott]

Also... because Castle is a SF.

[CGD]

Also... because Castle is a SF.

Keep speaking it into existence!