Will Spurs Start Both Castle and Sochan?

[TD 21]

Conventional wisdom is that its an either/or and that Barnes should and will start and given the presumed internal pressure (even though it's unlikely anything seismic happens if they don't) to make the playoffs and the "soft landing" early portion of the schedule, it'd be risky.

To play devil's advocate, it's not like Sochan fits any better with Kornet off the bench and his 1-4 POA defense/rebounding are more needed with the starters anyway.

They also just need to know if they can get away with Castle and Sochan playing some together, otherwise neither is going to get the minutes they'd probably prefer and it'd be difficult to justify an extension for the latter.

[Dejounte]

It’s going to be a priority for the Spurs to give Castle minutes moreso than Sochan. Castle showing up in pretty much every offseason workout, even the summer league one displays the leadership normally sought after from this organization. I can’t imagine a scenario where his overall minutes is decreased from last season. The Spurs typically ride the momentum of their player’s growth, and Castle is trending up.

On the other hand, Sochan has been trending down ever since Barnes was acquired (and because of his mid-season injury) and has to prove again he’s worth the meaningful minutes he was getting in years prior. Whether Sochan will thrive in an environment where minutes are not a given and he has a lot to prove, time will tell.

[tbdog]

Maybe in the preseason, to see how it doesn't work (unless magnifically both their shots have improved)

[tbdog]

Another point that people are neglecting, is the second unit spacing around possibly Harper as the leading guard.

It's all good when you say, you need to start Devin and Barnes for Spacing, then look at the second unit with Kornet, Keldon, Castle/Sochan, Julian and Harper. It's like Barnes fits that second unit like a glove.

[tonight...you]

Sochan hasn't started for a hot minute.

[Dex]

Sochan hasn't started for a hot minute.

Hopefully it stays that way tbh

[Gagnrath]

At the same time? Only in games that Fox is out/off for some reason of which in an 82 game season there will probably be a handful. Otherwise I predict the starting line-up to be Fox, Castle, Champaigne, Barnes, Wemby. I expect Vassel to get a few starts at small forward as well as keldon but not many for either, We're pretty weak/thin at power-forward with only Barnes and Olneyk really slotting there (Though I expect that will be Bryant's natural position after about age 25) with neither of them being more than a replacement level starter at this point in their careers. For team with a bunch of small forwards and guards who can pull some minutes there we don't have one who is above league average really.

[heyheymymy]

Sochan may be a slow integration back after this injury concern if it's something that lingers.

[BSfromTX]

Castle will start. Question should just be, will Sochan?

[ffadicted]

Maybe... Fox Castle and Wemby should start every game, but I'm not sure if Vassell/Julian or Barnes/Sochan would make sense to start, and in which combination. Something we can iron out depending how the second unit being run by Harper goes, and if Bryant is any useful as an NBA level player at this point and can be a serviceable 3+D shooter or not.

[ginobilized]

Castle is starting, 100%.
Sochan will have to earn it and his calf injury may derail his cause a bit.

The big issue around this is the coaching staff. How will they structure things? Will Pop still be playing mad scientist from behind the scenes?
We have grown accustomed to Pop's oddities of lineups for the past 29 years. This is the first season with a new head coach. It will take some games to see where the horizon line is compared to past teams.

I'd imagine that Barnes and Fox will be the starting vets with Wemby, Castle and most likely Vassell. I see KJ, Sochan and Vassell as being invited to embrace new, and hopefully, clearly defined roles. There is also the chance that Harper is just too good to not start and Vassell becomes the 2nd unit scorer.

These dog days of the NBA summer are excruciating!

[KobesAchilles]

We aren’t tanking any more OP. We better not start Sochan. But Castle needs to start. Vassell is our 3 and Barnes and Wemby will finish up our line up. Sochan will go better with Harper, Kornet, KJ, and Champ off the bench.

[spurs10]

I see Castle starting and Sochan off the bench for Barnes.

[TD 21]

This board is weird. I know I had it written along the lines of conventional wisdom is Castle will start and at the least its an either/or between him and Sochan, so it was meant more so as Sochan or Barnes, even if it didn't read that way.

Anyway, I've never been a Sochan fan. Just wondering if we're missing something in terms of their plan for his role and given their lack of depth at the four (he's basically the only true one), rebounding and sizable POA defenders, they unfortunately probably need him more than they should.

[LeBowen]

so it was meant more so as Sochan or Barnes

We can't bench our by far the best 3pt shooter from last season until others show their 3pt has improved.
Especially not if Castle is also starting.
Castle/Sochan is the discussion because they were our POA defenders last season. Should be the same again and I'd personally never play them together.
~30mpg for Castle and ~18mpg (even that's generous) for Sochan until he shows he's not scared to take wide open shots.

[Dex]

My biggest problem with Sochan is his lack of basketball IQ and general feel for the game.

He is just...all over the place on both offense and defense. Sometimes that chaos leads to results, sometimes that chaos breaks down any semblance of structure the Spurs are trying to build. I don't think he really fits with the starting lineup...but don't know how he really fits with the bench either.

That kind of player is fine when you are tanking and running a bunch of guys out there to "see what they can do", but it is not a formula for building a championship team or anywhere near what we had with the Beautiful Game where everything was done with purpose.

I know that's a high bar to set, but that should be the goal even if we never get back there.

[TD 21]

We can't bench our by far the best 3pt shooter from last season until others show their 3pt has improved.
Especially not if Castle is also starting.
Castle/Sochan is the discussion because they were our POA defenders last season. Should be the same again and I'd personally never play them together.
~30mpg for Castle and ~18mpg (even that's generous) for Sochan until he shows he's not scared to take wide open shots.

Probably not and I've repeatedly said much of this myself, but like I said, Sochan doesn't fit any better off the bench and a Barnes/Vassell starting forward duo is giving up a lot defensively/rebounding/physicality wise and putting a ton on Wembanyama's plate in those areas.

Ultimately, it's about maximizing Wembanyama/Fox, so eventually I expect them to settle on the lineup that best suits them . . . but on the way to that, I could see them experimenting with the one(s) they think can suit more of the rotation.

[scott]

I think a better question is how much of a role will Sochan even have in the rotation.

He has his fans who see him as a crucial part of a championship core... but I get the feeling the Spurs don't see it the same way right now and view him more along the lines of the way they viewed Lonnie going into Year 4 of his rookie deal. A "shit or get off the pot" season for Sochan.

[Seventyniner]

Probably not and I've repeatedly said much of this myself, but like I said, Sochan doesn't fit any better off the bench and a Barnes/Vassell starting forward duo is giving up a lot defensively/rebounding/physicality wise and putting a ton on Wembanyama's plate in those areas.

This is a good counterpoint. It might be less about not playing Castle and Sochan together due to lack of shooting, and more about not playing Barnes and Vassell together due to lack of everything else.

[tonight...you]

Dumb reply. Never mind.

[spursistan]

I think a better question is how much of a role will Sochan even have in the rotation.

He has his fans who see him as a crucial part of a championship core... but I get the feeling the Spurs don't see it the same way right now and view him more along the lines of the way they viewed Lonnie going into Year 4 of his rookie deal. A "shit or get off the pot" season for Sochan.
I could see things unraveling very fast for him if the season starts and he is still nursing his calf allowing Carter Bryant to crave out a role for himself and therefore stealing some of Sochan's minutes as their skillsets overlap greatly..At that point, i don't see any logic in continuing any extension talks when you have a facsimile of Sochan who is two and half years younger on a rookie deal..

[scott]

I could see things unraveling very fast for him if the season starts and he is still nursing his calf allowing Carter Bryant to crave out a role for himself and therefore stealing some of Sochan's minutes as their skillsets overlap greatly..At that point, i don't see any logic in continuing any extension talks when you have a facsimile of Sochan who is two and half years younger on a rookie deal..

...and who (theoretically) can shoot.

[TD 21]

This is a good counterpoint. It might be less about not playing Castle and Sochan together due to lack of shooting, and more about not playing Barnes and Vassell together due to lack of everything else.

Yeah, I could see them thinking, this team is going to have spacing issues no matter what.

So they can either have them for the first 6 minutes of each half and hope that, along with upgrading the defense/rebounding, their fringe MVP and All-Star caliber stars can mitigate those issues enough to offset the offensive downgrade.

Or they can have even worse spacing off the bench (and they're likely to play them a lot), with a unit that lacks star power to make up for it.

New era granted, but they've also historically preferred to start big.

[Dex]

Yeah, I could see them thinking, this team is going to have spacing issues no matter what.

So they can either have them for the first 6 minutes of each half and hope that, along with upgrading the defense/rebounding, their fringe MVP and All-Star caliber stars can mitigate those issues enough to offset the offensive downgrade.

Or they can have even worse spacing off the bench (and they're likely to play them a lot), with a unit that lacks star power to make up for it.

New era granted, but they've also historically preferred to start big.

We just need to get out of this rut of "first unit starts okay, game is even for 6 minutes....bench comes in and suddenly we're in a 15-20 point hole that we spend the rest of the game trying to climb out of"

Even if we start well and are up 10-20....those disappear in a blink.

[talkspurs]

I think the starting lineup will be Fox castle vassell Champagnie and Wemby. This would be at least to start the season/preseason.

[scott]

I think the starting lineup will be Fox castle vassell Champagnie and Wemby. This would be at least to start the season/preseason.

First time I've seen this suggestion. Seems a bit undersized, IMO. Personally I'd sub Barnes in for Devin and let him and Harper lead the second unit. Harper/Devin/Sochan/Lunch Lady/Korndog is what I would run as the second unit (sorry Keldon).

[talkspurs]

First time I've seen this suggestion. Seems a bit undersized, IMO. Personally I'd sub Barnes in for Devin and let him and Harper lead the second unit. Harper/Devin/Sochan/Lunch Lady/Korndog is what I would run as the second unit (sorry Keldon).

I dont see a 10 man rotation. People want to post 10 men rotation but most teams dont run that many. I think Devin will start and see how he goes with the starters. It is as big as what most people are saying. Champagnie is as big as barnes and Sochan.

I would actually like to see them start 2 bigs but I dont see them doing that.

[The Truth #6]

I think that unit is undersized. To me, Sochan is noticeably bigger than Champ.

[talkspurs]

6'7 217 vs 6'8 230. some but not much. and I have seen them listed at different heights and weights depending on where you look. Bryant is 6'8 220. Barns is 6,8 225 as well. These are off espn.

[dn0774]

I'm actually most curious to see the role/playing time Devin is going to get this season. I expect MatFO will give him a solid 25 games to show if a healthy off season got him back on track or not. Him being paid $27 mil means there is certainly a lot of interest in Devin succeeding this season.

[Dejounte]

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[cutewizard]

Kornet
Wemby
Champagne
Fox
Castle

Is interesting

[talkspurs]

I am switching mine. No because I think it is better but I think Barnes continues to start until injured or traded. He has the second longest starting streak in the NBA and I think Spurs continue that until he is injured or traded.

[dbestpro]

Kornet
Wemby
Champagne
Fox
Castle

Is interesting

Champagne will have trouble seeing the floor once Harper is healthy or a trade loosens the log jam.

[Gagnrath]

I dont see a 10 man rotation. People want to post 10 men rotation but most teams dont run that many. I think Devin will start and see how he goes with the starters. It is as big as what most people are saying. Champagnie is as big as barnes and Sochan.

I would actually like to see them start 2 bigs but I dont see them doing that.
Champagnie Is as big, height wise but he's more lightly built when it comes to fighting for position and setting picks/blocking out that makes a difference.

I actually think Champagnie will see a good bit of floor time, he's a pretty good defender and one of our better 3 point shooters, I think We're not going to see a lot of Carter Bryant and that he gets a good bit of run in Austin. I think Vassel is going to be told he's basically playing for his future with the Spurs till December. Sochan is weird, He needs to either pull a Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman direction, or get something going where he isn't a liability on the offensive end. This he can almost but not quite be completely ignored on offense and is good but not great as a defender isn't good enough for a rotation player on fringe contender. I think Barnes Starts as PF, Wemby as center Vassel & Castle as wings Fox as PG. Harper once healthy is first off bench for any of Castle Vassel or Fox, Champ will get subbed in for either Vassel or Barnes, Luke Kornet is Wemby's back-up and Olynyk will get some run as well.

[talkspurs]

Champagnie Is as big, height wise but he's more lightly built when it comes to fighting for position and setting picks/blocking out that makes a difference.

I actually think Champagnie will see a good bit of floor time, he's a pretty good defender and one of our better 3 point shooters, I think We're not going to see a lot of Carter Bryant and that he gets a good bit of run in Austin. I think Vassel is going to be told he's basically playing for his future with the Spurs till December. Sochan is weird, He needs to either pull a Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman direction, or get something going where he isn't a liability on the offensive end. This he can almost but not quite be completely ignored on offense and is good but not great as a defender isn't good enough for a rotation player on fringe contender. I think Barnes Starts as PF, Wemby as center Vassel & Castle as wings Fox as PG. Harper once healthy is first off bench for any of Castle Vassel or Fox, Champ will get subbed in for either Vassel or Barnes, Luke Kornet is Wemby's back-up and Olynyk will get some run as well.

I agree with most of what you said except for him being to small. The weight difference is small. You kind of even allude to this by saying he could sub in for Barnes. I actually see the rotation more like you mentioned but more because Barnes has been starting for so long and has an active game streak.
I will say he is not ideal but with what we have and I dont see us playing 2 bigs he is who I see being the best. That being said I think Barns starts due to his starting streak.

[Gagnrath]

I agree with most of what you said except for him being to small. The weight difference is small. You kind of even allude to this by saying he could sub in for Barnes. I actually see the rotation more like you mentioned but more because Barnes has been starting for so long and has an active game streak.
I will say he is not ideal but with what we have and I dont see us playing 2 bigs he is who I see being the best. That being said I think Barns starts due to his starting streak.
I'm not disagreeing and I'm not saying that Champaignie is "to small" to play a decent amount of minutes as a 4. I am saying that when it comes to starting and his draft profile Barnes was slated/projected as a small forward who could get some minutes as a PF especially down the road when he filled out and got his man strength. Now 12 years into his nba career he's thicker heavier and has lost a step or two he's probably a little more in tune with banging as a power forward. That happens in your late 20s early 30s. Champagnie is on a similar course and similar body type but about 8 years younger. Give him pretty decent sub minutes at 4 sure. Have him set the tone for the game doesn't seem like a great idea. Is he flat "two small to play 4"? No, for starting and to set tone, though you want someone who's a bit bigger. Also add in that he's a fairly young player on a young team and it makes sense to have Barnes in the spot to be an. experienced hand.

[dbestpro]

Trying to juggle minutes for Fox, Cassel, Harper, Vassel, Johnson and Champagnie is why I see the later the odd man out unless injury or a trade.

[Gagnrath]

Trying to juggle minutes for Fox, Cassel, Harper, Vassel, Johnson and Champagnie is why I see the later the odd man out unless injury or a trade. Champagnie is a forward, Mostly a 3 can do some time at 4. Fox, Castle and Harper are guards Castle and Harper can do some fill minutes as 3s but they are not going to be able to bang all game in as 3's for defense and rebounding.

[talkspurs]

I'm not disagreeing and I'm not saying that Champaignie is "to small" to play a decent amount of minutes as a 4. I am saying that when it comes to starting and his draft profile Barnes was slated/projected as a small forward who could get some minutes as a PF especially down the road when he filled out and got his man strength. Now 12 years into his nba career he's thicker heavier and has lost a step or two he's probably a little more in tune with banging as a power forward. That happens in your late 20s early 30s. Champagnie is on a similar course and similar body type but about 8 years younger. Give him pretty decent sub minutes at 4 sure. Have him set the tone for the game doesn't seem like a great idea. Is he flat "two small to play 4"? No, for starting and to set tone, though you want someone who's a bit bigger. Also add in that he's a fairly young player on a young team and it makes sense to have Barnes in the spot to be an. experienced hand.

Were not to far apart. I think champ is the better player. I think barnes starts because of start streak. He shouldnt for that reason but I think he gets it for that. he gets hurt and then I could see it change.