omg bruce bowen just owned dwayne wade [Archive]

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implacable44

12-08-2005, 01:38 PM

wow did you see how he locked dwayne wade up last night - er wait actually he couldnt keep d wade in front of him for nothing. he needed help all the help he could get last night.

sa_butta

12-08-2005, 01:45 PM

He must have done something right the Spurs still won the game. I dont care if Wade goes for 50, we still got a W. And actually he took 20 shots last night he was bound to be the high scorer.

Solid D

12-08-2005, 01:48 PM

I think Silent Bob would be the best one to address this particular thread.

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 01:49 PM

The author of this thread is a douche of the first order.

travis2

12-08-2005, 01:50 PM

Gee...he went 8-20...that's 0.400 for the mathematically challenged.

Coming into the game last night, Wade was shooting 0.452 for the season.

Sounds like a decent job to me.

sa_butta

12-08-2005, 01:51 PM

wow did you see how he locked dwayne wade up last night.You should be locked up as well.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 02:01 PM

The author of this thread is a douche of the first order.

comical

implacable44

12-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Gee...he went 8-20...that's 0.400 for the mathematically challenged.

Coming into the game last night, Wade was shooting 0.452 for the season.

Sounds like a decent job to me.

see i was man enough to come in here and give bruce bowen props- - he got used last night - he shot 8 for 20 because other spurs stepped up and he just missed shots. Bowen could not stay in front of him for anything - I doubt anybody can - why can't you apologists be man enough to admit he cannot guard Dwade?

not to mention that vicious dunk after he split 2 spurs and threw down on Timmy

Sec24Row7

12-08-2005, 02:05 PM

wade is awesome.

Spurs won, by a LOT.

I don't see your point.

The Spurs suck because they won and wade had a good game?

Cant_Be_Faded

12-08-2005, 02:09 PM

The author of this thread is a douche of the first order.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLOLOLO LOOLOLOL

Oh, Gee!!

12-08-2005, 02:10 PM

DWade is a beast. Nevertheless, he won't be getting a ring anytime soon.

http://gblx.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundodeporte/especiales/2004/10/nba/albumes/marzo/imagenes/wade_reu.jpg

TOP-CHERRY

12-08-2005, 02:10 PM

If having to put down a player from his own team just to prove he was "right" in an old argument makes him feel happier than a Spurs win, let him.

Kori Ellis

12-08-2005, 02:11 PM

wade is awesome.

Spurs won, by a LOT.

I don't see your point.

The Spurs suck because they won and wade had a good game?

His point is that he hates Bowen. And wants to prove that Bowen is too old and can't stay in front of any of the league's best scorers. Refer to any of his prior posts for the same mantra.

Kori Ellis

12-08-2005, 02:13 PM

If I was responding to a real post regarding this subject, here's what I'd say:

Dwyane Wade is awesome, though last night wasn't one of his better nights. At one point in the game he was 3-for-11 or 3-for-12. But he is definitely one of the more difficult players in the league for Bowen to guard.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 02:14 PM

His point is that he hates Bowen. And wants to prove that Bowen is too old and can't stay in front of any of the league's best scorers. Refer to any of his prior posts for the same mantra.

kori - you know that isnt true - I have given Bowen his respect and recognized that he has played great defense on several players in the league - the issue at hand is some of you apologists think he can do no wrong and won't allow any critique - you think he can lock up any and everyone in the league and I say he cant. I was big enough to recognize my error -- why can't you ?

Kori Ellis

12-08-2005, 02:19 PM

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 02:23 PM

the issue at hand is some of you apologists think he can do no wrong and won't allow any critique - you think he can lock up any and everyone in the leagueBullshit and bullshit.

Anyone who has followed Bruce's career has seen him get burned by great scorers. The thing that makes Bruce special is he never gives up in the face of that kind of ownage. He always comes back for more the next play, the next quarter, the next game, the next season -- learning from his mistakes and always throwing new looks at his covers. He's fucking relentless -- even more relentless than the worst douche of a troll that just hangs around for weeks waiting for some top 10 player to exceed his scoring average against Bruce.

In short:

Bruce > douche

samikeyp

12-08-2005, 02:24 PM

Spurs 98
Heat 84

next.

sa_butta

12-08-2005, 02:31 PM

Drew Rosenhaus-"Next Question"

Spurminator

12-08-2005, 02:47 PM

Apparently this is the first time implacable has seen the Spurs' team defensive scheme of funnelling scorers into the big man.... And did you happen to notice that the entire Heat offense was predicated on screening Bowen off of Wade?

Let me repeat that...

BRUCE BOWEN WAS THE CENTRAL FACTOR OF THE ENTIRE HEAT OFFENSE LAST NIGHT.

sprrs

12-08-2005, 02:59 PM

duncan2k5

12-08-2005, 03:04 PM

it would be hard for anyone to stay in front of wade when the head is setting like 100 picks for him. even the announcers said they never saw a team come on with such a focused plan for a defender...especially so early in the game. notice the few times he was alone with bruce and tried to cross him bruce would slide in front of him. then a big man could come to set a pick. anyway wade is one of my fav players...no one can guard him 1 on 1, but bruce did a helluva job frustrating him.

DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

12-08-2005, 03:05 PM

Good offense trumps good defense a majority of the time....

EDIT: Meant on an individual basis...

Horry For 3!

12-08-2005, 03:08 PM

Wade rarely scored when Bruce was on him. Ginobili played Wade a lot and thats when Wade scored.

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 03:14 PM

I don't think anyone has ever tried to contend that Bruce Bowen dominates the NBA's best perimeter players and is capable of shutting those guys down completely. I think the argument has always encompassed two ideas: (1) over time, in terms of creating inefficiency, Bowen wins those matchups more frequently than he loses them; and (2) there is nobody else in the NBA who wins those matchups as frequently as Bowen.

There's a reason great scorers score, and it's not because they are susceptible to being shut down for 4 quarters on many nights. Bowen's job isn't to hold Wade, Kobe, McGrady, or anyone else in that category to single digits every night. His job is to make them take a boatload of difficult shots under duress and earn whatever points they accumulate. Again, implacable, who is better in the NBA at doing that than Bowen on a night-in/night-out basis? I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with more than maybe 5 guys who are even remotely close.

Josh810

12-08-2005, 03:16 PM

They were setting picks on Bruce like no other, and on basically every play. Obviously he should have defied physics and gone THROUGH solid mass to stay with Wade. Bruce sucks. :rolleyes

Aggie Hoopsfan

12-08-2005, 03:22 PM

When the other team's office revolves entirely around minimizing Bowen's D, we've already won.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 03:25 PM

Spurminator

12-08-2005, 03:37 PM

bunch of apologists with black and silver colored glasses- d wayde doesnt need a pick to go around anyone

Then why the fuck was that the entire gameplan last night?

Did you notice when they stopped doing that for a stretch in the 3rd that was when Wade was having the most problems?

Your schtick is transparent.

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 03:38 PM

bunch of apologists with black and silver colored glasses- d wayde doesnt need a pick to go around anyone.

You might consult with Stan Van Gundy about that assertion. He apparently disagreed with that idea last night.

the team defense is one of the main reasons bowen is successful as a defender

And the team defense works because Bruce is an exceptional on the ball defender.

the other is his desire to be a great defender- which he is - but if it wasnt for the rest of the spurs playing help man and funneling people into tim - bruce would not be the defender he is -- he knows he has help so he is allowed to cheat or play more up on his man than he normally would.

So he's a great defender, but he's not a great defender?

you guys are pathetic in your bias view of basketball.

Translation: You guys don't agree with me and I can't possibly be wrong, so you are a bunch of pathetic homers.

If that's true, why on Earth do you have any interest in discussing any of this with anyone here?

implacable44

12-08-2005, 03:41 PM

You might consult with Stan Van Gundy about that assertion. He apparently disagreed with that idea last night.

And the team defense works because Bruce is an exceptional on the ball defender.

So he's a great defender, but he's not a great defender?

Translation: You guys don't agree with me and I can't possibly be wrong, so you are a bunch of pathetic homers.

If that's true, why on Earth do you have any interest in discussing any of this with anyone here?

actually I don't because you guys are a bunch of homer clowns. I said Bruce was a great defender and he is because of the Spurs team defense. If we went to a gym and Dwayne Wade walked in and Bruce Bowen was there - wade would kill him off the dribble - the pick and roll is part of the offense the HEAT ALWAYS RUN no matter who they play.

tlongII

12-08-2005, 03:42 PM

Wade's dunk over Duncan was SICK!

Spurminator

12-08-2005, 03:45 PM

the pick and roll is part of the offense the HEAT ALWAYS RUN no matter who they play.

A pick and roll would involve Wade passing the ball to the player who set a screen for him. You're talking about Wade scoring all over Bowen.

Make up your mind.

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 03:46 PM

duncan2k5

12-08-2005, 03:48 PM

true...he doesn't NEED picls to go around anyone, just like the spurs dont NEED to pass the ball around when they can simply pound it into duncan all the time. however, my, implacable friend, it creates a more efficient offense because there are more options off a pick and roll than to simply break a man down. plus its easier...by far. and like i said. there were a few times wade tried to cross him, bu bruce went in his way, then the pick came. i was pleased with bruce's defense and pleased with the help side defense that came after bruce got picked off

Spurminator

12-08-2005, 03:48 PM

For a bunch of homers, we sure do pick on Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tim Duncan, Rasho, Nazr, Barry, Malik Rose, David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Steve Smith, Hedo Turkoglu, Derek Anderson and Charlie Ward a lot.

Bowen escapes a lot of criticism primarily because you'd have to be pretty dense to miss what he brings to the team.

Josh810

12-08-2005, 03:55 PM

implacable44

12-08-2005, 03:59 PM

A pick and roll would involve Wade passing the ball to the player who set a screen for him. You're talking about Wade scoring all over Bowen.

Make up your mind.

Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage - several options - both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper.

cheguevara

12-08-2005, 03:59 PM

Bowen plays hard defense and succesfully contains teams stars night in and night out. He can guard multiple positions from PG to SF. And a Spur fan is gonna call him out the one night he doesn't do a great job?????

These kind of spur fans make me sick

Useruser666

12-08-2005, 04:01 PM

Maybe we can package this Bowen fellow with that dead weight Duncan?

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:03 PM

That's all find and dandy, but you do realize that Bowen was as proficient defensively when he played in Miami, right? In Miami, with bigs like Brian Grant and Anthony Mason (Zo played 13 games in 2001 and Bowen was 2nd Team All-NBA defense).

The NBA game isn't about who would shut down who in a gym, unless you're concerned more with SportsCenter highlights than with wins and titles.

If we're a bunch of homers, why do you even bother?

he was a lot younger back then too. i dont know if he was as efficient though - what years was he with the heat again --well which time i guess would be more appropriate - he was signed and let go by the heat numerous times and if he was such a staunch defender why didnt he stick on any team for more than 1 year and a half until he came to san antonio - waived by the bulkls - waived by the heat - waived by the celtics - and on and on -

i am not taking away his value to the spurs --this team is an absolute perfect fit for him. PERFECT and he excels here thanks to the team defense -- but he did not shut down or impede dwayne wade

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:04 PM

nkdlunch

12-08-2005, 04:06 PM

wow did you see how he locked dwayne wade up last night - er wait actually he couldnt keep d wade in front of him for nothing. he needed help all the help he could get last night.

WTF is your point?? Duncan, Manu, Kobe, AI, etc,etc everyone has a bad night once in a while. Not that Bowen had a bad night, for your info, Manu guarded Wade just as much. Are u gonna call him out too???

Wade made half his points from the free throw line, cause the refs were calling everything.

I say STFU fake ass fan.

cheguevara

12-08-2005, 04:07 PM

this is an ongoing conversation el guapo-- probably should have just pm'ed the guy it was meant for.

huh?? this is a freaking thread on the Spurs board moron. And ure the fan that makes me sick.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:08 PM

WTF is your point?? Duncan, Manu, Kobe, AI, etc,etc everyone has a bad night once in a while. Not that Bowen had a bad night, for your info, Manu guarded Wade just as much. Are u gonna call him out too???

Wade made half his points from the free throw line, cause the refs were calling everything.

I say STFU fake ass fan.

I say piss off and go away idiota. the refs were calling everything ? bowen didnt deserve those 5 fouls that forced pop to put manu on him so bowen didnt foul out in the first half ?

Useruser666

12-08-2005, 04:08 PM

he was a lot younger back then too. i dont know if he was as efficient though - what years was he with the heat again --well which time i guess would be more appropriate - he was signed and let go by the heat numerous times and if he was such a staunch defender why didnt he stick on any team for more than 1 year and a half until he came to san antonio - waived by the bulkls - waived by the heat - waived by the celtics - and on and on -

i am not taking away his value to the spurs --this team is an absolute perfect fit for him. PERFECT and he excels here thanks to the team defense -- but he did not shut down or impede dwayne wade

Do you want the stats for every play Bowen has defended on? How about the tons of coaches, players, and fans that talk about how great a defender he is? How about Kobe's performance in the LA game?

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:09 PM

huh?? this is a freaking thread on the Spurs board moron. And ure the fan that makes me sick.

then go get some tussin homie - you are not my concern. i should have pmed fromwaydowntown to avoid idiots like you.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:10 PM

Do you want the stats for every play Bowen has defended on? How about the tons of coaches, players, and fans that talk about how great a defender he is? How about Kobe's performance in the LA game?

already been discussed - we discussed kobes and mcgradys performances against other teams and how they played worse than they did against the spurs.

nkdlunch

12-08-2005, 04:12 PM

I say piss off and go away idiota. the refs were calling everything ? bowen didnt deserve those 5 fouls that forced pop to put manu on him so bowen didnt foul out in the first half ?

why don't u try sticking ur head up your ass see if it fits :)

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:14 PM

why don't u try sticking ur head up your ass see if it fits :)

why dont you stop putting stuff in yours ?

Useruser666

12-08-2005, 04:16 PM

already been discussed - we discussed kobes and mcgradys performances against other teams and how they played worse than they did against the spurs.

So then what? Is he not a good defender? Does he not make the opposing players job on offense harder? Did he not punish Kobe for leaving him with 5-7 fg? What about Ray Allen, Shawn Marion, Rip Hamilton, and Melo during last years playoffs?

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 04:21 PM

Give it a rest man. Bruce has merely fooled the entire league into thinking he's an elite defender. He's fooled the coaches into making their offenses revolve around him AND fooled voters into making him DPOY runner up. This internet wonk knows more than all of them put together.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:21 PM

polandprzem

12-08-2005, 04:23 PM

:lol

This disscussion is funny, but keep going.

Ps. I think that Wade is one of the players which Bowen have a lot trouble with. Bowen is a great 1-1 defender and also great team defender (maybe even more). The defense is defense no amtter the athleticism and all the funny stuff. The defender must prevent the basket.

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 04:23 PM

Stay on topic.

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 04:24 PM

never said that -- how come he never stuck anywhere before here?Riley wanted him back and made him an offer much larger than the Spurs'.

You really aren't very bright, are you.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:31 PM

Riley wanted him back and made him an offer much larger than the Spurs'.

You really aren't very bright, are you.

you are pretty dense arent you ? I did not ask 1 question and the heat had him and let him go a few times - as did the celtics - sixers etc -- but you already knew that -

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 04:34 PM

you are pretty dense arent you ? I did not ask 1 question and the heat had him and let him go a few times - as did the celtics - sixers etc -- but you already knew that -

Pointing to Bowen's transience before 2001 as proof that his defense is aided only by playing for the Spurs suggests that his defensive prowess always existed.

It's certainly reasonable to conclude that after years of bouncing around, Bowen made a decision to work hard on his defense and through that process, became such a good defender that he never had to worry about being cut again. Those would seem to be the true facts, after all.

cheguevara

12-08-2005, 04:35 PM

Why are posts getting deleted??

it never happened before, that's what I liked about this board!

Josh810

12-08-2005, 04:38 PM

never said that -- how come he never stuck anywhere before here?

Cause we are actually a defense-oriented team, which Bowen thrives in. He didn't succeed as much until he found the perfect team for his style of play. You basically already answered that question yourself, douche...

this team is an absolute perfect fit for him. PERFECT and he excels here thanks to the team defense

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 04:38 PM

I did not ask 1 question and the heat had him and let him go a few times - as did the celtics - sixers etc -- but you already knew that -That wasn't your question, was it?
Why are posts getting deleted??Your respective mothers have nothing to do with this topic.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:43 PM

That wasn't your question, was it?Your respective mothers have nothing to do with this topic.

it wasnt ? my question was how come he never stuck anywhere before here. and you only addressed his last stint with heat when slick was his coach -

Aggie Hoopsfan

12-08-2005, 04:51 PM

Okay, even though everyone else is doing a good job of making implacable look like a twit, I'm gonna jump in here.

bunch of apologists with black and silver colored glasses- d wayde doesnt need a pick to go around anyone.

Then why did every single Miami play for DWade start off with attempting to screen Bowen? EVERY SINGLE TIME.

the other is his desire to be a great defender- which he is -

You should have stopped here, you wouldn't look so dumb.

he knows he has help so he is allowed to cheat or play more up on his man than he normally would.

He plays up on his man because he knows NBA players aren't comfortable unless they have their three feet of personal space. Take it away, you make the guy uncomfortable.

Hell, what am I saying? When I played in HS, and also playing pick up ball in college, it was the same way. Offensive players hate having someone in their grill.

you guys are pathetic in your bias view of basketball.

Actually you're the pathetic one. You have your panties in a wad about Bruce Bowen, always have on this site. And you are trying to argue that you know more about Bowen than the league's coaches, GMs, and opposing players who aren't whiny bitches.

THAT'S pathetic and biased.

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 04:56 PM

my question was how come he never stuck anywhere before here. and you only addressed his last stint with heat when slick was his coach -What more do I need to address? You implied he was never wanted, I showed he was. Game over.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 04:59 PM

What more do I need to address? You implied he was never wanted, I showed he was. Game over.

no actually my previous post detailed all teams he played for. i didnt say he wasnt wanted - i asked why he didnt stick anywhere?

implacable44

12-08-2005, 05:01 PM

Okay, even though everyone else is doing a good job of making implacable look like a twit, I'm gonna jump in here.

Then why did every single Miami play for DWade start off with attempting to screen Bowen? EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You should have stopped here, you wouldn't look so dumb.

He plays up on his man because he knows NBA players aren't comfortable unless they have their three feet of personal space. Take it away, you make the guy uncomfortable.

Hell, what am I saying? When I played in HS, and also playing pick up ball in college, it was the same way. Offensive players hate having someone in their grill.

Actually you're the pathetic one. You have your panties in a wad about Bruce Bowen, always have on this site. And you are trying to argue that you know more about Bowen than the league's coaches, GMs, and opposing players who aren't whiny bitches.

THAT'S pathetic and biased.

you played highschool and pick up ball in college so you know offensive players hate having someone in their grill ? I played too and I love it when someone gets in my grill when i have the ball in my hand - that is the challenge and it much much easier to get around someone who gets all in your grill.

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 05:03 PM

no actually my previous post detailed all teams he played for. i didnt say he wasnt wanted - i asked why he didnt stick anywhere?Right, and I answered he chose not to stick in Miami. I can't dumb it down for you any more than that.

Useruser666

12-08-2005, 05:05 PM

http://www.inhi-fi.com/robots/01/tzone4.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9697/tshirt5zj.jpg

implacable44

12-08-2005, 05:10 PM

Right, and I answered he chose not to stick in Miami. I can't dumb it down for you any more than that.

you dont have to dumb it down for me -- you are dumbing it down for yourself because that is the only way it suits your purpose. he got waived by miami - philly and boston and miami again. dumb it down for you to support the chumpmentality.

samikeyp

12-08-2005, 05:19 PM

Does it matter? The Spurs won. Bottom line....that is all that counts.

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 05:20 PM

you dont have to dumb it down for me -- you are dumbing it down for yourself because that is the only way it suits your purpose. he got waived by miami - philly and boston and miami again. dumb it down for you to support the chumpmentality.

This isn't some static situation.

Bruce made himself a great defender after being waived several times. His improvement as a defender has made him much more valuable to teams than he was before 2001. It's not like the teams that waived Bowen before 2001 were waiving a player with the same skills and mindset that he now has.

You might ask Mark Cuban why there were such ramblings a few years ago about the Mavericks trying to lure Bowen to Dallas. It's probably because Bruce is just some replaceable piece. :rolleyes

ChumpDumper

12-08-2005, 05:28 PM

I'll put it in Tarzan-speak so maybe if you read it slowly some 20-watt bulb may go off in that haed of yours.

Bruce not as good before.

Bruce got better.

Riley want Bruce stick after Bruce better.

Bruce choose no stick Riley.

Bruce Spur.

Douche think Spur Bruce same France Bruce.

Douche wrong.

sandman

12-08-2005, 05:29 PM

you dont have to dumb it down for me -- you are dumbing it down for yourself because that is the only way it suits your purpose. he got waived by miami - philly and boston and miami again. dumb it down for you to support the chumpmentality.

So three teams that haven't won championships in decades don't want a player that the Spurs have integrated into the foundation of their success, and the Spurs are the idiots? The votes for the All-D first team are rigged by the Teamsters in an effort to keep the foriegner Dirk from getting on? Kobe shots 9 for 32 because he is afraid to take it to Rasho in the paint? What point are you trying to make? Other than a vitriol-induced back-handed compliment? Damn, Bruce is going to have to take out a TRO on you. :rolleyes

Spurminator

12-08-2005, 05:39 PM

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 06:10 PM

On that whole screening thing we've all apparently imagined -- from today's Daily Dime:

Every time up the floor, the Heat seemed to run a play run for Wade, or he at least touched the ball. That's a good thing, and a bad thing. It's good thing because he's a great player. But it's a bad thing because the other team knows what's going to happen.

Wade is not just a Reggie Miller-type that runs off screens. Wade's got more ball-handling skills. And when Bowen's playing a guy like Paul Pierce, he can use his smarts, positioning and savvy. But the Heat set a lot of screens for Wade, which limits Bowen's individual effectiveness as a defender. [/homer]

spurs_fan_in_exile

12-08-2005, 06:15 PM

Impy's getting owned.

5ToolMan

12-08-2005, 06:21 PM

kori - you know that isnt true - I have given Bowen his respect and recognized that he has played great defense on several players in the league - the issue at hand is some of you apologists think he can do no wrong and won't allow any critique - you think he can lock up any and everyone in the league and I say he cant. I was big enough to recognize my error -- why can't you ?

Bowen's success defending the best in the league tends to get better with experience. Once Bruce develops more knowledge on where Wade wants the ball, he will get progressively better in making Wade work harder for everything he gets. Bruce has seen much more of Kobe, T-Mac, Allen and Carter, and his experience in how to slow their games is thus more evident.

Wade, based on his size and physical skills, is obviously one of the tougher players and toughest matchups Bruce will have in the league. But as good as Wade is, he does not have anything on the four mentioned above, except that Bruce has seen much less of him on the floor.

5ToolMan

12-08-2005, 06:37 PM

bunch of apologists with black and silver colored glasses- d wayde doesnt need a pick to go around anyone. the team defense is one of the main reasons bowen is successful as a defender -- the other is his desire to be a great defender- which he is - but if it wasnt for the rest of the spurs playing help man and funneling people into tim - bruce would not be the defender he is -- he knows he has help so he is allowed to cheat or play more up on his man than he normally would. you guys are pathetic in your bias view of basketball. i was arguing with this cat yesterday named lonny - i guess he used to post here - anyway - he was talking about how you cant say anything negative about parker, bowen, ginobili, horry or duncan on this board or you get banned and stoned - i told him no way - the mavs apologists that i am subjected to up here are far worse than the spurs fans - -but i guess he was right - and kori i dont want to hear back from you until you finish our other conversation about shooting percentages etc..

If Wade does not need screens to consistantly get away from Bruce, why was the entire Heat offense predicated on setting multiple screens on every set? I guess SVG does not know how easy Wade could beat Bruce. LOL!

As to your next point, what is it that you don't understand about NBA Hoops being a TEAM sport?

Players become great players only if they know how to play within and through their TEAM. This is not a game of horse, or one on one. It is NBA hoops, where the only title that counts in the NBA Championship. That takes great players who understand how to play as a TEAM ... period. When one tries to critize a player's greatness, saying he would not be great without his team, it is clear they don't have a clue as to what the game is all about.

Another hint for you in regards to critizing Spurs players on this board. It is not only allowed, it is incouraged ... when it is valid. But when it reaks of ignorance like your lame BS, it is quickly shot down.

Kori Ellis

12-08-2005, 06:54 PM

he was talking about how you cant say anything negative about parker, bowen, ginobili, horry or duncan on this board or you get banned and stoned - i told him no way - the mavs apologists that i am subjected to up here are far worse than the spurs fans - -but i guess he was right - and kori i dont want to hear back from you until you finish our other conversation about shooting percentages etc..

This is the funniest part of the whole thread. You just sit and make up crap. No one has ever been banned for saying anything bad about Spurs players. I think your "friend" has our board confused with someone else's. And I'm sorry you don't want to "hear back" from me, I just was calling you right now. :rolleyes If you don't want to read any of my posts about Bowen, then I suggest you scroll. I already killed you on the field goal conversation.

As for last night if you watched the game, as several people pointed out here, Wade wasn't even primarily Bruce's assignment. He was guarded by Manu, Tony, Bruce, and just about every other Spur. As a team, they guarded him fairly well.

I have already said in this thread that one-on-one Wade is a difficult matchup for Bowen. But I believe that's primarily because Bowen hasn't had that many opportunities to guard him yet. Last season Wade was out one of the games against the Spurs and I believe the season before, that was the case as well. The more that Bowen guards Wade, the better he'll get at it. That's his M.O.

You aren't even a Spurs fan, so it's time you change "your team" under name. There's no reason to undercover troll here. Be proud.

Beerjitsu

12-08-2005, 06:57 PM

I'm a rookie to these boards, so I'm obviously missing something here. Did Bruce run over Implacable's dog or something?

5ToolMan

12-08-2005, 06:59 PM

actually I don't because you guys are a bunch of homer clowns. I said Bruce was a great defender and he is because of the Spurs team defense. If we went to a gym and Dwayne Wade walked in and Bruce Bowen was there - wade would kill him off the dribble - the pick and roll is part of the offense the HEAT ALWAYS RUN no matter who they play.

The only thing revealing about your statement that Wade would kill Bruce off the dribble one on one, is your ignorance of the game. Because I am a nice guy, and I have taken on the mission is to eradicate ignorance from this board, I will try in my way to help you. :smokin

The first thing you should know; NBA hoops is a TEAM game, so your entire point is moot. But since you insist on exposing your mindless chatter, let us move on to solving your ignorance.

Just to clue you in so you don't appear quite as ignorant the next time you decide to play the @ss, the skilled offensive player will always have the advantage when matched against the skilled defensive players ONE ON ONE.

You can take any top defensive player of any era, even those who would be classified as great one on one defenders, and matched against the top offensive players of all time ONE ON ONE, the defender would get beaten more often than they make stops.

Aggie Hoopsfan

12-08-2005, 07:11 PM

you dont have to dumb it down for me -- you are dumbing it down for yourself because that is the only way it suits your purpose. he got waived by miami

Jordan got waived by his high school team

He obviously never got better either :spin

Solid D

12-08-2005, 07:53 PM

I can't believe this thread has gone 4 pages. I just checked the game log and Wade scored 24 points while Bowen was on the floor. 14 on FGs and 10 on FTs. Only 3 of the FTs came on fouls by Bowen.

The Spurs sagged with 3 across the front on Wade to inhibit his penetrations. They also doubled Wade and switched off screens. That's why this thread is so ridiculous.

Shaolin-Style

12-08-2005, 08:20 PM

Who let the espn trolls in?

Obstructed_View

12-08-2005, 08:37 PM

In football, the guy who gets double teamed and chipped the entire game doesn't get the sack, but he's no less responsible for the fact that his teammates get to the quarterback, or for the team getting a win. Wade getting lots of points after his team was down by 20 points is really really impressive, and we should all agree that Bruce Bowen sucks.

implacable44

12-08-2005, 11:18 PM

This is the funniest part of the whole thread. You just sit and make up crap. No one has ever been banned for saying anything bad about Spurs players. I think your "friend" has our board confused with someone else's. And I'm sorry you don't want to "hear back" from me, I just was calling you right now. :rolleyes If you don't want to read any of my posts about Bowen, then I suggest you scroll. I already killed you on the field goal conversation.

As for last night if you watched the game, as several people pointed out here, Wade wasn't even primarily Bruce's assignment. He was guarded by Manu, Tony, Bruce, and just about every other Spur. As a team, they guarded him fairly well.

I have already said in this thread that one-on-one Wade is a difficult matchup for Bowen. But I believe that's primarily because Bowen hasn't had that many opportunities to guard him yet. Last season Wade was out one of the games against the Spurs and I believe the season before, that was the case as well. The more that Bowen guards Wade, the better he'll get at it. That's his M.O.

You aren't even a Spurs fan, so it's time you change "your team" under name. There's no reason to undercover troll here. Be proud.

why wouldnt bruce be assigned to wade ssince he is the best player ? looked to me like he was checking him -- but whatever -
and how did you own me - tried to say 40% is better than 30% and I told you not really because some dude that shoots 3 for 10 from the 3 point line and another dude shots 4 for 10 for 2 who is the more efficient one ? and you took percentages from one game and tried to compare it to a whole season - you are pathetic with the rest of the apologists - dont you have an obituary or some minute article to write?

now as for the obsession with the picks - the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no -- it creates mismatches and opportunities. for you low bball iq folks and in the words of the extreme chump i cant dumb it down for you anymore unless we go into x's and o;s .-

chump -- nice tarzan speak - it becomes you - if you cant admit you only addressed the part of the post to suit your arguement then you have integrity issues and that creates issues because you are dishonest even with yourself.

FromWayDowntown

12-08-2005, 11:56 PM

now as for the obsession with the picks - the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no -- it creates mismatches and opportunities. for you low bball iq folks and in the words of the extreme chump i cant dumb it down for you anymore unless we go into x's and o;s .-

Sure, Red Auerbach -- but there's also a difference between running a guy off of screens to spring him and playing pick-and-roll. You're right that pick and roll is designed to create mismatches. But the Heat weren't playing pick and roll last night. They were setting screens all over the place not to create mismatches, but to spring Wade by freeing him from Bowen. Had the Heat played screen-roll last night, you might have a point, but they weren't.

If you want to go x's and o's from an actual game, don't bring fiction to try to bolster an invalid point.

LilMissSPURfect

12-09-2005, 12:06 AM

can i buy a vowel?

Solid D

12-09-2005, 12:55 AM

the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no --

Wrong answer. Of course Parker needs screens to get open. The Spurs even run the 4 down the middle after COP to give Tony space. It's part of basketball. Quit posing. It doesn't fit you. Back to the shallow pool.

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:08 AM

kori - you know that isnt true - I have given Bowen his respect and recognized that he has played great defense on several players in the league - the issue at hand is some of you apologists think he can do no wrong and won't allow any critique - you think he can lock up any and everyone in the league and I say he cant. I was big enough to recognize my error -- why can't you ?
You have it on reverse. You said he couldn't guard any elite wing this year, he proceeded to lock up Kobe, LeBron, Pierce, TMac and Dirk.
It is just sad that a person got owned for saying that Bruce Bowen cannot stop an elite wing this year, and come back every single time Bowen didn't completely stop another player when nobody ever said that Bowen can stop every single elite player every single game just to prove that his/her original assessment was correct.
The sad part does not come in the lack of ability to admit him/herself being wrong in the first place, it comes in the part where a person does not have any ability to understand and remember what s/he was originally arguing about.
But if putting down a Spurs player for his lack of ability to stop an opposing player makes you happy because it shows that Bowen cannot shut down every single person in the league, then go ahead, it still doesn't change the fact that he is one of the leading candidates for DPoY, and the Spurs are having a very good record despite not playing to their potential yet.

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:16 AM

bunch of apologists with black and silver colored glasses- d wayde doesnt need a pick to go around anyone.

Wade is not just a Reggie Miller-type that runs off screens. Wade's got more ball-handling skills. And when Bowen's playing a guy like Paul Pierce, he can use his smarts, positioning and savvy. But the Heat set a lot of screens for Wade, which limits Bowen's individual effectiveness as a defender.

the team defense is one of the main reasons bowen is successful as a defender -- the other is his desire to be a great defender- which he is - but if it wasnt for the rest of the spurs playing help man and funneling people into tim - bruce would not be the defender he is -- he knows he has help so he is allowed to cheat or play more up on his man than he normally would. you guys are pathetic in your bias view of basketball. i was arguing with this cat yesterday named lonny - i guess he used to post here - anyway - he was talking about how you cant say anything negative about parker, bowen, ginobili, horry or duncan on this board or you get banned and stoned - i told him no way - the mavs apologists that i am subjected to up here are far worse than the spurs fans - -but i guess he was right - and kori i dont want to hear back from you until you finish our other conversation about shooting percentages etc..

I suppose everybody is wrong but you. People say negative things about Duncan ALL the time, same with Parker, Ginobili, Rasho and well, every single member of the Spurs. Even a Spurs legend like David Robinson and George Gervin gets their share of criticism. To throw out a blanket statement that negative statements about Spurs players are not allowed on this board is not just incorrect, it exposes you as either a person who doesn't spend anytime reading other people's posts, or a person with absolutely no ability to absorb information that you do not agree with.
And what is that don't want to hear back from Kori thing about? She can reply to whichever post whenever she wants. What are you now? Trying to limit how people reply on this board?

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:28 AM

Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage - several options - both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper.
Oh my goodness, this is the most idiotic thing I have heard about. Do you know why it's called the pick and roll? It's because the person who sets the pick rolls to the basket, opening up MORE options than you just described. True, both of what you said could take place after the pick, but the one who sets the pick can also roll to the basket if both defenders follow the ball handler, a pass would made to the one setting the pick rolling to the basket, resulting in an easy layup. The one who sets the pick can also pop out, and get a wide open jumper.
But then of course, if you were coaching you would ask both defenders to "go with the pick", who, might I remind you, is NOT the one with the ball. I mean, let me get my head around this. Say Player B sets a pick for Player A, player A has the ball, now I am on defense, and when I see Player B setting the pick, I just think to myself. "Gee, Player B doesn't have the ball, let's go guard him" :rolleyes
And to have you critique other people's basketball knowledge on this? This is just absolutely ridiculously funny.
BTW, some suggestions on your comebacks. Pick on my grammar and spelling, go ahead, English isn't even my first language.
Before then, read up
http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/fndmntl8.htm#PLAY%20%233

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:33 AM

you played highschool and pick up ball in college so you know offensive players hate having someone in their grill ? I played too and I love it when someone gets in my grill when i have the ball in my hand - that is the challenge and it much much easier to get around someone who gets all in your grill.

He played HS ball, so he MUST know that teams run the screen and roll so that they do not get the ball to the one setting the pick. :elephant

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:42 AM

I'm a rookie to these boards, so I'm obviously missing something here. Did Bruce run over Implacable's dog or something?
:lmao :lmao :lmao
Probably, and maybe Bruce didn't pass him the ball after he set a pick for Bruce last time they were playing the game at the Y. No wait, the whole point for him setting the pick was because he doesn't want to get the ball back :lmao
This was just too much.

sprrs

12-09-2005, 01:48 AM

Implacable's not even arguing anymore, he's throwing out insults. . . I think it's pretty clear who's lost

ambchang

12-09-2005, 01:49 AM

now as for the obsession with the picks - the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no -- it creates mismatches and opportunities. for you low bball iq folks and in the words of the extreme chump i cant dumb it down for you anymore unless we go into x's and o;s .-
Yeah, you are the only one with high bball IQ. I mean, who can argue with you about not passing the ball to the guy setting the pick? I guess the old Jazz pick and roll system was all wrong, what's with Malone setting a pick for Stockton, rolling to the basket, getting a sweet pass and an easy layup? The defenders should all crowd around Malone every single time, so Stockton can roll to the basket or shoot a jumper. Damn, Stockton should have been 2nd in the all-time scoring list, and Malone should just be #1 on the all time not getting the ball after setting the pick list.

sprrs

12-09-2005, 01:52 AM

I'm a rookie to these boards, so I'm obviously missing something here. Did Bruce run over Implacable's dog or something?

The whole thing started because he thought Manu was a better defender than Bruce.

Solid D

12-09-2005, 02:07 AM

It's a tar baby thread.

Just for conversation's sake, the old, seasoned veteran announcer for ESPN, Brent Musberger noticed special Bowen attention before the 1st period was over in the Miami game. He said something like, the Heat are just relentless. They are sending high screens at Bruce Bowen every play. It's very seldom that you see a defensive player become the focal point like that.

The screens they sent at Bruce weren't really even screen/rolls that often. They were basically blockers sent to free up the movers, specifically Wade. Just good solid back-screens or up-screens, and if those didn't work just screen and re-screen to be sure to nail Bruce.

Through all that Wade only made 7 FGs while Bruce was on the floor.

callo1

12-09-2005, 02:09 AM

see i was man enough to come in here and give bruce bowen props- - he got used last night - he shot 8 for 20 because other spurs stepped up and he just missed shots. Bowen could not stay in front of him for anything - I doubt anybody can - why can't you apologists be man enough to admit he cannot guard Dwade?

not to mention that vicious dunk after he split 2 spurs and threw down on Timmy

When the guy gets 3 picks set for him per possesion, its hard for anyone to stay with him.

ChumpDumper

12-09-2005, 02:39 AM

chump -- nice tarzan speak - it becomes you - if you cant admit you only addressed the part of the post to suit your arguement then you have integrity issues and that creates issues because you are dishonest even with yourself.What part of "Bruce got better" does your douchey douche of a brain not get?

I adressed every part of your "argument" and you whined about it like the bitch troll you are.

Do I really need to go back to Fullerton to prove that Bruce is better now than he was 15 years ago? Is that what you are asking?

Ask it then.

Do you honestly think that Bruce Bown is a better basketball player now than he was at Edison High School?
Yes, douche. I do.

duncan2k5

12-09-2005, 02:42 AM

who's bruce Bowen? sounds like this Bruce character sucks. is he the guy that let melo, ray ray, shawn frickin marion and rip hamilton go off on him in last year's playoffs? im sure i saw him guarding billups in game 7 too. damn he got his ass lit up. trade that b*tch for smush parker...HE GETS STEALS!!!

5ToolMan

12-09-2005, 08:42 AM

Wrong answer. Of course Parker needs screens to get open. The Spurs even run the 4 down the middle after COP to give Tony space. It's part of basketball. Quit posing. It doesn't fit you. Back to the shallow pool.

I hate to inform you, but his post shows a better knowledge of the game than yours, at least on this one.

An effective offensive team player can always get away from a single defender one on one. If you are going to contend Tony needs screens to get open, please name one defender who you think can stay with him one on one, and I am sure someone can get you scores of tape to show you are mistaken.

A primary reason players don't only use one on one skill to beat players off the dribble, is because the defensive support is much better position to help. His statement, that the pick-n-roll is to create mismatches where the team with the ball can build an even bigger advantage, is right on.

Now, let him back into the big pool. :hat

Solid D

12-09-2005, 10:19 AM

I hate to inform you, but his post shows a better knowledge of the game than yours, at least on this one.

An effective offensive team player can always get away from a single defender one on one. If you are going to contend Tony needs screens to get open, please name one defender who you think can stay with him one on one, and I am sure someone can get you scores of tape to show you are mistaken.

A primary reason players don't only use one on one skill to beat players off the dribble, is because the defensive support is much better position to help. His statement, that the pick-n-roll is to create mismatches where the team with the ball can build an even bigger advantage, is right on.

Now, let him back into the big pool. :hat

I disagree. Basketball is a game based on getting good shot opportunities. Screens are a vital part of the game. Every player needs screens to get better space to shoot, unless players are sagging off them and already giving them space. It's just basketball.

Every scorer needs screens. Slater Martin needed screens. Bob Cousy needed screens, Bob Petit, Dave Bing, Lou Hudson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordon, Reggie Miller, Tony Parker, etc. Down screens, flare screens, back screens, screens and re-screens, ball screens, dribble hand-offs.

Off those blocks you have movement by the screener. Rolls, pops, pin-down and post, etc. Those movements can create mismatches, if a switch occurs. What if a switch doesn't occur? The screen or movement off that screen can still get a player extra space. You don't run screen actions just to get mismatches. You run them to get a better shot opportunity.

Think about it 5Tool.

Bowen defends Wade very well but he needed help. Wade can score but he needed help with screens to get space to score. TP or Wade or any player needs space for better shot opportunities, particularly when trapped or doubled. Even the greatest can't get any shot they want, any time they want.

5ToolMan

12-09-2005, 10:47 AM

I disagree. Basketball is a game based on getting good shot opportunities. Screens are a vital part of the game. Every player needs screens to get better space to shoot, unless players are sagging off them and already giving them space. It's just basketball.

Every scorer needs screens. Slater Martin needed screens. Bob Cousy needed screens, Bob Petit, Dave Bing, Lou Hudson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordon, Reggie Miller, Tony Parker, etc. Down screens, flare screens, back screens, screens and re-screens, ball screens, dribble hand-offs.

Off those blocks you have movement by the screener. Rolls, pops, pin-down and post, etc. Those movements can create mismatches, if a switch occurs. What if a switch doesn't occur? The screen or movement off that screen can still get a player extra space. You don't run screen actions just to get mismatches. You run them to get a better shot opportunity.

Think about it 5Tool.

Bowen defends Wade very well but he needed help. Wade can score but he needed help with screens to get space to score. TP or Wade or any player needs space for better shot opportunities, particularly when trapped or doubled. Even the greatest can't get any shot they want, any time they want.

I agree with most of what you are saying in this post. And I agree, screens and pick-n-rolls are essential to give offensive advantage in this team game.

My only exception to what was said earlier, would be emphisize my view that a great offensive player does not need a screen to get open in a one on one setting. Without defensive support, the great one on one offensive player will leave the great one on one defender in the dust, many more times than not.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 11:40 AM

You have it on reverse. You said he couldn't guard any elite wing this year, he proceeded to lock up Kobe, LeBron, Pierce, TMac and Dirk.
It is just sad that a person got owned for saying that Bruce Bowen cannot stop an elite wing this year, and come back every single time Bowen didn't completely stop another player when nobody ever said that Bowen can stop every single elite player every single game just to prove that his/her original assessment was correct.
The sad part does not come in the lack of ability to admit him/herself being wrong in the first place, it comes in the part where a person does not have any ability to understand and remember what s/he was originally arguing about.
But if putting down a Spurs player for his lack of ability to stop an opposing player makes you happy because it shows that Bowen cannot shut down every single person in the league, then go ahead, it still doesn't change the fact that he is one of the leading candidates for DPoY, and the Spurs are having a very good record despite not playing to their potential yet.

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league

Useruser666

12-09-2005, 11:52 AM

Three true facts:

Bruce makes it difficult for players to score points.

Fire is hot.

Water is wet.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 11:58 AM

Oh my goodness, this is the most idiotic thing I have heard about. Do you know why it's called the pick and roll? It's because the person who sets the pick rolls to the basket, opening up MORE options than you just described. True, both of what you said could take place after the pick, but the one who sets the pick can also roll to the basket if both defenders follow the ball handler, a pass would made to the one setting the pick rolling to the basket, resulting in an easy layup. The one who sets the pick can also pop out, and get a wide open jumper.
But then of course, if you were coaching you would ask both defenders to "go with the pick", who, might I remind you, is NOT the one with the ball. I mean, let me get my head around this. Say Player B sets a pick for Player A, player A has the ball, now I am on defense, and when I see Player B setting the pick, I just think to myself. "Gee, Player B doesn't have the ball, let's go guard him" :rolleyes
And to have you critique other people's basketball knowledge on this? This is just absolutely ridiculously funny.
BTW, some suggestions on your comebacks. Pick on my grammar and spelling, go ahead, English isn't even my first language.
Before then, read up
http://www.guidetocoachingbasketball.com/fndmntl8.htm#PLAY%20%233

hey wang chung - we will make this post the most idiotic thing you have ever heard okay - because I said and I will break it down for you piece by piece :
Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick ( THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL _ IT MIGHT BE A RESULT BUT NOT THE PURPOSE -- THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE POST THAT PROMPTED MY REPLY-- - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage ( THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL) - several options ( NOTE ___SEVERAL OPTIONS- both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper ( HAPPENS ALL THE TIME _ AND DEPENDING ON THE GUARD WITH THE BALL MORE OFTEN) - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j ( ANOTHER OPTION) - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper ( ANOTHER OPTION CREATED BY THE PICK AND ROLL). -- IN EFFECT THE PICK AND ROLL WHICH WORKED WONDERS FOR STOCKTON MALONE AS WELL AS NASH AND AMARE CREATES OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE IT FORCES THE DEFENSE TO MAKE A DECISION AND REACT JUST LIKE I SAID WANGCHUNG

implacable44

12-09-2005, 11:59 AM

Implacable's not even arguing anymore, he's throwing out insults. . . I think it's pretty clear who's lost

insults are constantly thrown out on this board - as is vulgar language -- by everyone - look at chumpstump - I mean the only reasonable conclusion I have come to for him calling me a douch is because I am constantly cleaning out his moms plumbing with my tools.

ambchang

12-09-2005, 12:07 PM

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league
so what are you complaining about when Dwayne Wade shot 8-20 and scored 31 points on the Spurs on a loss? The whole Heat offense concentrated on getting Wade shots over Bowen, and made the rest of the team stand around and watch.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 12:12 PM

so what are you complaining about when Dwayne Wade shot 8-20 and scored 31 points on the Spurs on a loss? The whole Heat offense concentrated on getting Wade shots over Bowen, and made the rest of the team stand around and watch.

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?

cheguevara

12-09-2005, 12:15 PM

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?

:lol now he's using Word thesaurus on his posts

ambchang

12-09-2005, 12:15 PM

hey wang chung - we will make this post the most idiotic thing you have ever heard okay - because I said and I will break it down for you piece by piece :
Going forward I will disregard all your comments about basketball knowledge - You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick ( THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL _ IT MIGHT BE A RESULT BUT NOT THE PURPOSE -- THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE POST THAT PROMPTED MY REPLY-- - that purpose is to force the defense to make a decision that will lead to an offensive advantage ( THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE PICK AND ROLL) - several options ( NOTE ___SEVERAL OPTIONS- both guys go with the pick leaving the ball handler free to penetrate or shoot a jumper ( HAPPENS ALL THE TIME _ AND DEPENDING ON THE GUARD WITH THE BALL MORE OFTEN) - or both defender go under the pick leaving an open j ( ANOTHER OPTION) - both guys attack the ball handler leaving the pass open to the guy setting the pick for a dunk or a jumper ( ANOTHER OPTION CREATED BY THE PICK AND ROLL). -- IN EFFECT THE PICK AND ROLL WHICH WORKED WONDERS FOR STOCKTON MALONE AS WELL AS NASH AND AMARE CREATES OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE IT FORCES THE DEFENSE TO MAKE A DECISION AND REACT JUST LIKE I SAID WANGCHUNG
Yeah, the purpose is to gain an offensive advantage, well duh! What would you expect? The offensive team runs a play so that the defense can gain an advantage? Every single offensive set is ran to force the defense make a decision and have the offense gain an advantage. But the purpose of the pick and roll is NOT to not pass the ball to the player setting the pick. That is one of the MAIN options of the play.
I can't even believe I am arguing with a person of self-proclaimed high basketball IQ about whether pick-and-rolls were set so that the purpose is NOT to pass the ball to the one setting the pick. And no, don't go on and change the purpose now and say that it is about creating offensive advantage, because like I said, every single offensive set is done for that purpose.
And I am glad you brought up Nash and Stoudemire, another example of getting the ball to the one setting the pick.
The term pick-and-roll probably cued you in that the one setting the pick will roll to the basket for an easy deuce, but then again, your high basketball IQ is revolutionizing the game of basketball.

ambchang

12-09-2005, 12:19 PM

no the question is why would you post a comment so completely void of integrity with such malicious intent ?
Huh? void of integrity and of malicious intent? what do you think my purpose of the post was? did it somehow lead to some catastrophic events?
perhaps you should look at your original intent of THIS post when you talked about how Bowen couldn't contain Wade in a game in which the Spurs destroyed the Heat.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 12:21 PM

ambchang

12-09-2005, 12:25 PM

Again, however, Miami wasn't running pick and roll plays on Wednesday night. They were setting screens for Wade, hoping to give Wade an advantage against Bowen. I don't see why all the discussion of screen/roll when Miami basically wasn't running screen/roll at all.

Not every screen is intended to create a pick and roll situation.
True, but then the guy was saying another person was an idiot because the purpose of the pick-and-roll is not to get the ball to the one setting the pick. I just can't let that one fly.
and now that you mentioned it, Mr. High-basketball-IQ probably mixed up setting a screen with pick and rolls.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 12:28 PM

dude you know better than anyone i also came in here and posted recognizing bruce was a man among boys and was still capable of playing great defense -- against most players in the league

Which was obviously the point of your original lament in October/November that the Spurs didn't move Bruce for Ray Allen and the inimitable Jerome James.

You said back then that the Spurs would be fine defensively with Allen, because Manu was a as good a defender, if not better than Bowen. Would it be your argument that Manu would have done a better job on Wade or Kobe or McGrady this season than Bowen has? If not, then you've completely undermined your own point. If that would be your argument, I'm still hard pressed to buy it, particularly given Manu's injuries and Bowen's successes.

And, oh yeah, I'm overwhelmed by Jerome James' stellar play so far -- Jerome James makes Rasho Nesterovic look like a fusion of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. I'm bent the Spurs didn't give that dude a huge contract.

Solid D

12-09-2005, 12:28 PM

and then there is the Aggie pick 'n roll...which incorporates the index finger and thumb.

:smokin (sorry AHF, just playin')

Marcus Bryant

12-09-2005, 12:32 PM

How did this thread last for 5 pages? What is happening to this forum?

PS...StD, I saw that.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 12:34 PM

True, but then the guy was saying another person was an idiot because the purpose of the pick-and-roll is not to get the ball to the one setting the pick. I just can't let that one fly.
and now that you mentioned it, Mr. High-basketball-IQ probably mixed up setting a screen with pick and rolls.

Implacable is wrong about a lot of things, but he's right that screen-roll is designed to create mismatches and confusion. Not every screen-roll is intended to get the ball back to the screener. I mean, if the defense decides to double the screener or to play off of the ball-handler, it doesn't make much sense to run the play to get it to the screener.

A good point (like Stockton) reads the play as it develops and assesses which mismatch is most helpful to the offense and keeps or distributes the ball accordingly. Stockton, for example, was deadly at coming over the screen and either pulling up for an open jumper or beating his man to the rack. But he was equally adept at spotting a mismatch on Malone and getting the ball to Karl for easy baskets.

wildbill2u

12-09-2005, 12:48 PM

wow did you see how he locked dwayne wade up last night - er wait actually he couldnt keep d wade in front of him for nothing. he needed help all the help he could get last night.

As a rule, SF CANT stay in front of guards, especially guards of All-Star caliber like Wade. It's a tribute to Bowen that he takes on whichever All-star threat is on the other team night after night--and usually does a great job.

Aggie Hoopsfan

12-09-2005, 12:51 PM

Nice Solid :lol no offense taken.

Implacable, you crack me up...

you played highschool and pick up ball in college so you know offensive players hate having someone in their grill ? I played too and I love it when someone gets in my grill when i have the ball in my hand - that is the challenge and it much much easier to get around someone who gets all in your grill.

Yep. I was the guy who played people tight defensively. I never heard more whining than when I had a guy locked up, bodied up on him, and he couldn't get breathing room. Guys who love scoring hate having someone crowd their space.

now as for the obsession with the picks - the spurs run the pick and roll - does parker need them to get open ? no -- it creates mismatches and opportunities. for you low bball iq folks and in the words of the extreme chump i cant dumb it down for you anymore unless we go into x's and o;s .-

You aren't even arguing the same thing anymore. The fact is the Miami offense, in order to get Bowen off of Wade, was running screens, sometimes with even 2-3 guys involved, just to get Wade a clean look.

So way back on page 1 when you said Bowen couldn't handle Wade, you were and still are wrong - Bowen couldn't handle Wade + 1-3 players on Miami setting screens for Wade.

There's a big difference, but you wouldn't know this because you've already proven to be the most basketball illiterate person in this thread (and that's saying something).

ambchang

12-09-2005, 12:52 PM

Implacable is wrong about a lot of things, but he's right that screen-roll is designed to create mismatches and confusion. Not every screen-roll is intended to get the ball back to the screener. I mean, if the defense decides to double the screener or to play off of the ball-handler, it doesn't make much sense to run the play to get it to the screener.

A good point (like Stockton) reads the play as it develops and assesses which mismatch is most helpful to the offense and keeps or distributes the ball accordingly. Stockton, for example, was deadly at coming over the screen and either pulling up for an open jumper or beating his man to the rack. But he was equally adept at spotting a mismatch on Malone and getting the ball to Karl for easy baskets.

Sure, I agree that the pick-and-roll is used to create mismatches and confusion, but then what he said was:
a) that its purpose was to NOT pass the ball to the one setting the pick, and then
b) to create an offensive advantage.

a) is obviously wrong, because passing the ball to the screener is one of the major options in the play, while
b) is just true for every single offensive set.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Yeah, the purpose is to gain an offensive advantage, well duh! What would you expect? The offensive team runs a play so that the defense can gain an advantage? Every single offensive set is ran to force the defense make a decision and have the offense gain an advantage. But the purpose of the pick and roll is NOT to not pass the ball to the player setting the pick. That is one of the MAIN options of the play.
I can't even believe I am arguing with a person of self-proclaimed high basketball IQ about whether pick-and-rolls were set so that the purpose is NOT to pass the ball to the one setting the pick. And no, don't go on and change the purpose now and say that it is about creating offensive advantage, because like I said, every single offensive set is done for that purpose.
And I am glad you brought up Nash and Stoudemire, another example of getting the ball to the one setting the pick.
The term pick-and-roll probably cued you in that the one setting the pick will roll to the basket for an easy deuce, but then again, your high basketball IQ is revolutionizing the game of basketball.

dude -- you are so blinded by intent to insult you can't see the forest for the trees man - someone made a comment about the purpose of the pick and roll being to pass to the the guy setting the pick - i said that is not the purpose but it is a possible result of the pick and roll. the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick. it is to force the defense to make a decision to create opportunities or mismatches. my comment about "the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick" was in response to someone saying that was the purpose.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 12:58 PM

Which was obviously the point of your original lament in October/November that the Spurs didn't move Bruce for Ray Allen and the inimitable Jerome James.

You said back then that the Spurs would be fine defensively with Allen, because Manu was a as good a defender, if not better than Bowen. Would it be your argument that Manu would have done a better job on Wade or Kobe or McGrady this season than Bowen has? If not, then you've completely undermined your own point. If that would be your argument, I'm still hard pressed to buy it, particularly given Manu's injuries and Bowen's successes.

And, oh yeah, I'm overwhelmed by Jerome James' stellar play so far -- Jerome James makes Rasho Nesterovic look like a fusion of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. I'm bent the Spurs didn't give that dude a huge contract.

is rasho doing that great?

implacable44

12-09-2005, 12:59 PM

Sure, I agree that the pick-and-roll is used to create mismatches and confusion, but then what he said was:
a) that its purpose was to NOT pass the ball to the one setting the pick, and then
b) to create an offensive advantage.

a) is obviously wrong, because passing the ball to the screener is one of the major options in the play, while
b) is just true for every single offensive set.

again - you are reading the post wrong. the SOLE purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:01 PM

Nice Solid :lol no offense taken.

Implacable, you crack me up...

Yep. I was the guy who played people tight defensively. I never heard more whining than when I had a guy locked up, bodied up on him, and he couldn't get breathing room. Guys who love scoring hate having someone crowd their space.

You aren't even arguing the same thing anymore. The fact is the Miami offense, in order to get Bowen off of Wade, was running screens, sometimes with even 2-3 guys involved, just to get Wade a clean look.

So way back on page 1 when you said Bowen couldn't handle Wade, you were and still are wrong - Bowen couldn't handle Wade + 1-3 players on Miami setting screens for Wade.

There's a big difference, but you wouldn't know this because you've already proven to be the most basketball illiterate person in this thread (and that's saying something).

I wish you would have checked me like that - anybody who can go off the dribble loves guys like you because that is an easy bucket or foul. LOVE IT. I would give you 50.

as far as arguing the same thing - it is impossible to argue the same topic in a forum because there are so many conversations going on at once - topic changes - focus of topic changes - comments etcc

2centsworth

12-09-2005, 01:02 PM

this has to be the most irrelevant thread ever. spurs fans must be bored out of their minds or the most defensive people on the planet.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:02 PM

As a rule, SF CANT stay in front of guards, especially guards of All-Star caliber like Wade. It's a tribute to Bowen that he takes on whichever All-star threat is on the other team night after night--and usually does a great job.

totally agreed

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:04 PM

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:06 PM

How did this thread last for 5 pages? What is happening to this forum?

PS...StD, I saw that.

you are right - perhaps we should switch this thread to one discussing how cheap Peter Holt and the SPurs are

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:07 PM

this has to be the most irrelevant thread ever. spurs fans must be bored out of their minds or the most defensive people on the planet.

totally agree with the 2nd part of your post.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:07 PM

is rasho doing that great?

Let's see: Rasho has started 17 of 18 games this season for the defending champions and is averaging 6 ppg, 4 rpg, and 1 bpg. Your guy Jerome, meanwhile, has played in 6 games for the Knicks, has been a net negative for them when on the floor, and has the distinction of being deemed an F- free agent pickup.

Obviously, Rasho is not dominating in the real world, but compared to Jerome James, he's practically all-star-ific!

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:10 PM

I did say that and I still think Manu -- when healthy can match up just as well if not better with some players - especially kobe but that is just an opinion - but since you know I said that - then you -- like AMBCHANG also know that I came in here and recognized my error in judgment and my poor assumption of how Bruce would perform this year -- might you have integrity issues too ?

Yet, everytime you think you can, you continue to beat this dead horse about Bowen being unable to defend great scorers. I don't really understand where you're going with this; it's like you gave a mea culpa, only to continue to hope to find evidence that might suggest that you weren't ever wrong.

There's no lack of integrity in observing what's happening and pointing out disingenous statements.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:11 PM

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:13 PM

look at you using latin and legal jargon - are you in law school ? Am I to expect a res ipsa loquitor out of you soon ?

Right. Forgot that I'm talking to a top 10 percenter possessed of a remarkable knack for changing the subject.

Of course, were I to throw out some legal jargon, I'd probably go to the bother of actually spelling the words correctly. Just me, though.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:13 PM

Let's see: Rasho has started 17 of 18 games this season for the defending champions and is averaging 6 ppg, 4 rpg, and 1 bpg. Your guy Jerome, meanwhile, has played in 6 games for the Knicks, has been a net negative for them when on the floor, and has the distinction of being deemed an F- free agent pickup.

Obviously, Rasho is not dominating in the real world, but compared to Jerome James, he's practically all-star-ific!

whos to say what he would be doing on the spurs though - attitude reflects altitude - here he would be on a winning franchise - with winners and a diferent mindset - maybe he would be inspired to perform - block some shots - rebound and would play great 0- like many of you have noted bruce has done since arriving. or maybe he would be just normal hovering and Rasho's numbers or even Nazr's -- who can say?

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:15 PM

whos to say what he would be doing on the spurs though - attitude reflects altitude - here he would be on a winning franchise - with winners and a diferent mindset - maybe he would be inspired to perform - block some shots - rebound and would play great 0- like many of you have noted bruce has done since arriving. or maybe he would be just normal hovering and Rasho's numbers or even Nazr's -- who can say?

I'd say that the entirety of Jerome James' career to date is proof that he wouldn't even be playing at Rasho-esque levels were he in San Antonio.

2centsworth

12-09-2005, 01:16 PM

totally agree with the 2nd part of your post.
you can't agree with part 2 w/o part 1. but whatever i'll practice what i preach and go elsewhere.

nkdlunch

12-09-2005, 01:16 PM

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/nkdlunch/yawn.jpg

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:16 PM

Yet, everytime you think you can, you continue to beat this dead horse about Bowen being unable to defend great scorers. I don't really understand where you're going with this; it's like you gave a mea culpa, only to continue to hope to find evidence that might suggest that you weren't ever wrong.

There's no lack of integrity in observing what's happening and pointing out disingenous statements.

There is no mea culpa - I already recognized my fault and error in judgment. There are some ---possibly even including law students such as yourself who claim that bruce can stop anyone and is the best defender on the planet - so when he fails to shut someone down i point it out - bruce had 5 fouls and should have fouled out. I mean - after Mcgrady went down with his injury the game after San Antonio I didn't make a big stink of it -- I still let it be said that Bowen shut him down and injury had nothing to do with it -- and even when Lebron went and had a terrible performance 0 I think it was against the magic a few nights after the spurs I just asked did that make Hedo the new best defender on the planet based on Lebron's performance.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:17 PM

Right. Forgot that I'm talking to a top 10 percenter possessed of a remarkable knack for changing the subject.

Of course, were I to throw out some legal jargon, I'd probably go to the bother of actually spelling the words correctly. Just me, though.

I didnt change the subject I was typing the second post - just wanted to recognize your excellent use of legal jargon you picked up at St. Marys law school ?

leemajors

12-09-2005, 01:21 PM

bowen should not have fouled out. you are way off there. he should have had 3-4 fouls.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:22 PM

There is no mea culpa - I already recognized my fault and error in judgment. There are some ---possibly even including law students such as yourself who claim that bruce can stop anyone and is the best defender on the planet - so when he fails to shut someone down i point it out - bruce had 5 fouls and should have fouled out. I mean - after Mcgrady went down with his injury the game after San Antonio I didn't make a big stink of it -- I still let it be said that Bowen shut him down and injury had nothing to do with it -- and even when Lebron went and had a terrible performance 0 I think it was against the magic a few nights after the spurs I just asked did that make Hedo the new best defender on the planet based on Lebron's performance.

I think you've said enough there to prove my point. Suggesting that you could have pointed to all of the "faults" of Bruce Bowen as a defender, but chose not to isn't particularly indicative of a belief that you erred in your initial conclusion about Bowen's defensive prowess. Rather than seeing proof of the point you claim to have realized, you're looking for evidence to prove your original point.

I have no idea why you're fascinated with the idea that I might be in law school, though. Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:26 PM

I think you've said enough there to prove my point. Suggesting that you could have pointed to all of the "faults" of Bruce Bowen as a defender, but chose not to isn't particularly indicative of a belief that you erred in your initial conclusion about Bowen's defensive prowess. Rather than seeing proof of the point you claim to have realized, you're looking for evidence to prove your original point.

I have no idea why you're fascinated with the idea that I might be in law school, though. Is that supposed to be some sort of insult?

no i am not trying to defend my original post - I believe that dude is amazing - at his age and still able to do what he does defensively is amazing - my college coach told us defense was 90% pure desire and he has desire. I truly think he is one of the best defenders in the league especially with his versatility.

my point is that you -- among several other apologists in here see with balck and silver colored glasses and find little to no fault with spurs. Although there is some critical analysis this message board is "homer" to a tee.

leemajors

12-09-2005, 01:30 PM

from what i have seen of FWD's posts, he is anything but a pure spurs apologist. if he wore silver and black tinted glasses his replies to your criticism would consist of "shut up dude spurs rule why is your team the spurs when all you do is talk shit about bowen" etc etc. regardless, i don't see why you are so shocked to find spurs homers on a spurs board.

Solid D

12-09-2005, 01:30 PM

implacable doesn't seem to be appeased or pacified.

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:32 PM

my point is that you -- among several other apologists in here see with balck and silver colored glasses and find little to no fault with spurs. Although there is some critical analysis this message board is "homer" to a tee.

That's not true at all. You should spend a bit more time reading what I say before you start blasting at me like that. I may not be as deeply critical as, say AHF is about Pop's lack of offensive creativity, or as Marcus is about Holt's wallet, but I'm certainly not some blinded homer who can't see faults where they exist. I happen to think that Bruce Bowen is the best on-the-ball defender in the NBA. I'd likely think that if he played somewhere other than San Antonio. I guess using your logic, you'd call me a myopic homer if I said I thought Tim Duncan was the best player in the game, too?

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:34 PM

implacable doesn't seem to be appeased or pacified.

Indeed. I even took up for him a page or so ago and I've still been branded a homer and had my educational background questioned.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:39 PM

That's not true at all. You should spend a bit more time reading what I say before you start blasting at me like that. I may not be as deeply critical as, say AHF is about Pop's lack of offensive creativity, or as Marcus is about Holt's wallet, but I'm certainly not some blinded homer who can't see faults where they exist. I happen to think that Bruce Bowen is the best on-the-ball defender in the NBA. I'd likely think that if he played somewhere other than San Antonio. I guess using your logic, you'd call me a myopic homer if I said I thought Tim Duncan was the best player in the game, too?

I think Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA. I do not think Bruce Bowen is the best on ball defender , I do think he is dang good though- top 5 defenders in the league for sure. IMO.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 01:40 PM

Indeed. I even took up for him a page or so ago and I've still been branded a homer and had my educational background questioned.

I am not questioning your education - I was asking if you were in law school or a lawyer

FromWayDowntown

12-09-2005, 01:40 PM

I think Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA. I do not think Bruce Bowen is the best on ball defender , I do think he is dang good though- top 5 defenders in the league for sure. IMO.

Yet, somehow, in arguing that Bowen is better than Top 5 (Top 2? Top 1?) I'm a blinded homer with no objectivity? WTF is that?

Integrity indeed, old man.

mavsfan1000

12-09-2005, 02:36 PM

I would rather have Ben Wallace over Bruce Bowen.

sprrs

12-09-2005, 02:51 PM

With Dampier as a center I'd take Ben Wallace too

ambchang

12-09-2005, 02:51 PM

dude -- you are so blinded by intent to insult you can't see the forest for the trees man - someone made a comment about the purpose of the pick and roll being to pass to the the guy setting the pick - i said that is not the purpose but it is a possible result of the pick and roll. the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick. it is to force the defense to make a decision to create opportunities or mismatches. my comment about "the purpose of the pick and roll is not to pass to the guy setting the pick" was in response to someone saying that was the purpose.
This is brand new, I am the one blinded by intent to insult, yet you were the one hurling insults at whoever coming your way.
I will quote you said originally

You obviously have never played or studied basketball the pick and roll serves one purpose - and that purpose is not to pass the ball to the guy who set the pick
Meaning that the reason to run a pick-and-roll is to not pass the ball to the screener, which is obviously not the case.

mavsfan1000

12-09-2005, 02:54 PM

With Dampier as a center I'd take Ben Wallace too

same with Rasho Nesterovic. Mr softy.

5ToolMan

12-09-2005, 04:12 PM

my point is that you -- among several other apologists in here see with balck and silver colored glasses and find little to no fault with spurs. Although there is some critical analysis this message board is "homer" to a tee.

Psst .. the Spurs have won 2 of the last 3 and are odds on favorites to make it 3 of 4. If you are so insistant on finding fault with recent past champions, the Laker Board is WAY down the hall.

I don't even need my Black and Silver Glasses to see that. But, both facts do look much better with them on. :hat

Useruser666

12-09-2005, 04:21 PM

http://www.searchlores.org/schopeng.htm

1 Carry your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.
The more general your opponent's statement becomes, the more objections you can find against it.
The more restricted and narrow your own propositions remain, the easier they are to defend.

2 Use different meanings of your opponent's words to refute his argument.
Example: Person A says, "You do not understand the mysteries of Kant's philosophy."
Person B replies, "Of, if it's mysteries you're talking about, I'll have nothing to do with them."

3 Ignore your opponent's proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing.
Rather, understand it in some quite different sense, and then refute it.
Attack something different than what was asserted.

4 Hide your conclusion from your opponent until the end.
Mingle your premises here and there in your talk.
Get your opponent to agree to them in no definite order.
By this circuitous route you conceal your goal until you have reached all the admissions necessary to reach your goal.

5 Use your opponent's beliefs against him.
If your opponent refuses to accept your premises, use his own premises to your advantage.
Example, if the opponent is a member of an organization or a religious sect to which you do not belong, you may employ the declared opinions of this group against the opponent.

6 Confuse the issue by changing your opponent's words or what he or she seeks to prove.
Example: Call something by a different name: "good repute" instead of "honor," "virtue" instead of "virginity," "red-blooded" instead of "vertebrates".

7 State your proposition and show the truth of it by asking the opponent many questions.
By asking many wide-reaching questions at once, you may hide what you want to get admitted.
Then you quickly propound the argument resulting from the proponent's admissions.

8 Make your opponent angry.
An angry person is less capable of using judgment or perceiving where his or her advantage lies.

9 Use your opponent's answers to your question to reach different or even opposite conclusions.

10 If you opponent answers all your questions negatively and refuses to grant you any points, ask him or her to concede the opposite of your premises.
This may confuse the opponent as to which point you actually seek him to concede.

11 If the opponent grants you the truth of some of your premises, refrain from asking him or her to agree to your conclusion.
Later, introduce your conclusions as a settled and admitted fact.
Your opponent and others in attendance may come to believe that your conclusion was admitted.

12 If the argument turns upon general ideas with no particular names, you must use language or a metaphor that is favorable to your proposition.
Example: What an impartial person would call "public worship" or a "system of religion" is described by an adherent as "piety" or "godliness" and by an opponent as "bigotry" or "superstition."
In other words, inset what you intend to prove into the definition of the idea.

13 To make your opponent accept a proposition , you must give him an opposite, counter-proposition as well.
If the contrast is glaring, the opponent will accept your proposition to avoid being paradoxical.
Example: If you want him to admit that a boy must to everything that his father tells him to do, ask him, "whether in all things we must obey or disobey our parents."
Or , if a thing is said to occur "often" you are to understand few or many times, the opponent will say "many."
It is as though you were to put gray next to black and call it white; or gray next to white and call it black.

14 Try to bluff your opponent.
If he or she has answered several of your question without the answers turning out in favor of your conclusion, advance your conclusion triumphantly, even if it does not follow.
If your opponent is shy or stupid, and you yourself possess a great deal of impudence and a good voice, the technique may succeed.

15 If you wish to advance a proposition that is difficult to prove, put it aside for the moment.
Instead, submit for your opponent's acceptance or rejection some true proposition, as though you wished to draw your proof from it.
Should the opponent reject it because he suspects a trick, you can obtain your triumph by showing how absurd the opponent is to reject an obviously true proposition.
Should the opponent accept it, you now have reason on your side for the moment.
You can either try to prove your original proposition, as in #14, maintain that your original proposition is proved by what your opponent accepted.
For this an extreme degree of impudence is required, but experience shows cases of it succeeding.

16 When your opponent puts forth a proposition, find it inconsistent with his or her other statements, beliefs, actions or lack of action.
Example: Should your opponent defend suicide, you may at once exclaim, "Why don't you hang yourself?"
Should the opponent maintain that his city is an unpleasant place to live, you may say, "Why don't you leave on the first plane?"

17 If your opponent presses you with a counter-proof, you will often be able to save yourself by advancing some subtle distinction.
Try to find a second meaning or an ambiguous sense for your opponent's idea.

18 If your opponent has taken up a line of argument that will end in your defeat, you must not allow him to carry it to its conclusion.
Interrupt the dispute, break it off altogether, or lead the opponent to a different subject.

19 Should your opponent expressly challenge you to produce any objection to some definite point in his argument, and you have nothing to say, try to make the argument less specific.
Example: If you are asked why a particular hypothesis cannot be accepted, you may speak of the fallibility of human knowledge, and give various illustrations of it.

20 If your opponent has admitted to all or most of your premises, do not ask him or her directly to accept your conclusion.
Rather, draw the conclusion yourself as if it too had been admitted.

21 When your opponent uses an argument that is superficial and you see the falsehood, you can refute it by setting forth its superficial character.
But it is better to meet the opponent with acounter-argument that is just as superficial, and so dispose of him.
For it is with victory that you are concerned, not with truth.
Example: If the opponent appeals to prejudice, emotion or attacks you personally, return the attack in the same manner.

22 If your opponent asks you to admit something from which the point in dispute will immediately follow, you must refuse to do so, declaring that it begs the question.

23 Contradiction and contention irritate a person into exaggerating their statements.
By contradicting your opponent you may drive him into extending the statement beyond its natural limit.
When you then contradict the exaggerated form of it, you look as though you had refuted the original statement.
Contrarily, if your opponent tries to extend your own statement further than your intended, redefine your statement's limits and say, "That is what I said, no more."

24 State a false syllogism.
Your opponent makes a proposition, and by false inference and distortion of his ideas you force from the proposition other propositions that are not intended and that appear absurd.
It then appears that opponent's proposition gave rise to these inconsistencies, and so appears to be indirectly refuted.

25 If your opponent is making a generalization, find an instance to the contrary.
Only one valid contradiction is needed to overthrow the opponent's proposition.
Example: "All ruminants are horned," is a generalization that may be upset by the single instance of the camel.

26 A brilliant move is to turn the tables and use your opponent's arguments against himself.
Example: Your opponent declares: "so and so is a child, you must make an allowance for him."
You retort, "Just because he is a child, I must correct him; otherwise he will persist in his bad habits."

27 Should your opponent suprise you by becoming particularly angry at an argument, you must urge it with all the more zeal.
No only will this make your opponent angry, but it will appear that you have put your finger on the weak side of his case, and your opponent is more open to attack on this point than you expected.

28 When the audience consists of individuals (or a person) who is not an expert on a subject, you make an invalid objection to your opponent who seems to be defeated in the eyes of the audience.
This strategy is particularly effective if your objection makes your opponent look ridiculous or if the audience laughs.
If your opponent must make a long, winded and complicated explanation to correct you, the audience will not be disposed to listen to him.

29 If you find that you are being beaten, you can create a diversion--that is, you can suddenly begin to talk of something else, as though it had a bearing on the matter in dispute.
This may be done without presumption if the diversion has some general bearing on the matter.

30 Make an appeal to authority rather than reason.
If your opponent respects an authority or an expert, quote that authority to further your case.
If needed, quote what the authority said in some other sense or circumstance.
Authorities that your opponent fails to understand are those which he generally admires the most.
You may also, should it be necessary, not only twist your authorities, but actually falsify them, or quote something that you have entirely invented yourself.

31 If you know that you have no reply to the arguments that your opponent advances, you by a find stroke of irony declare yourself to be an incompetent judge.
Example: "What you say passes my poor powers of comprehension; it may well be all very true, but I can't understand it, and I refrain from any expression of opinion on it."
In this way you insinuate to the audience, with whom you are in good repute, that what your opponent says is nonsense.
This technique may be used only when you are quite sure that the audience thinks much better of you than your opponent.

32 A quick way of getting rid of an opponent's assertion, or of throwing suspicion on it, is by putting it into some odious category.
Example: You can say, "That is fascism" or "Atheism" or "Superstition."
In making an objection of this kind you take for granted
1)That the assertion or question is identical with, or at least contained in, the category cited;
and
2)The system referred to has been entirely refuted by the current audience.

33 You admit your opponent's premises but deny the conclusion.
Example: "That's all very well in theory, but it won't work in practice."

34 When you state a question or an argument, and your opponent gives you no direct answer, or evades it with a counter question, or tries to change the subject, it is sure sign you have touched a weak spot, sometimes without intending to do so.
You have, as it were, reduced your opponent to silence.
You must, therefore, urge the point all the more, and not let your opponent evade it, even when you do not know where the weakness that you have hit upon really lies.

35 Instead of working on an opponent's intellect or the rigor of his arguments, work on his motive.
If you success in making your opponent's opinion, should it prove true, seem distinctly prejudicial to his own interest, he will drop it immediately.
Example: A clergyman is defending some philosophical dogma.
You show him that his proposition contradicts a fundamental doctrine of his church.
He will abandon the argument.

36 You may also puzzle and bewilder your opponent by mere bombast.
If your opponent is weak or does not wish to appear as if he has no idea what your are talking about, you can easily impose upon him some argument that sounds very deep or learned, or that sounds indisputable.

37 Should your opponent be in the right but, luckily for you, choose a faulty proof, you can easily refute it and then claim that you have refuted the whole position.
This is the way in which bad advocates lose good cases.
If no accurate proof occurs to your opponent, you have won the day.

38 Become personal, insulting and rude as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand.
In becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack on the person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character.
This is a very popular technique, because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 04:25 PM

This is brand new, I am the one blinded by intent to insult, yet you were the one hurling insults at whoever coming your way.
I will quote you said originally

Meaning that the reason to run a pick-and-roll is to not pass the ball to the screener, which is obviously not the case.

Ambchang quote the whole post dude - dont be stupid about it. and I already explained it to you. i responded to this comment by the spurminator - A pick and roll would involve Wade passing the ball to the player who set a screen for him. which implies that a pick and roll is designed so that the guard passes to whoever set the screen. not true -
Not to mention later in that post - which you conveniently did not quote as a whole - i say that one of the results of the pick and roll is the guy who sets the pick comes open for a jumper or slides to the hoop for a layup or dunk. - are you too much of a B* to admit you were wrong - seems like you and i have had this discussion before and i admitted i was wrong.

ambchang

12-09-2005, 04:40 PM

Ambchang quote the whole post dude - dont be stupid about it. and I already explained it to you. i responded to this comment by the spurminator - A pick and roll would involve Wade passing the ball to the player who set a screen for him. which implies that a pick and roll is designed so that the guard passes to whoever set the screen. not true -
Not to mention later in that post - which you conveniently did not quote as a whole - i say that one of the results of the pick and roll is the guy who sets the pick comes open for a jumper or slides to the hoop for a layup or dunk. - are you too much of a B* to admit you were wrong - seems like you and i have had this discussion before and i admitted i was wrong.
What is wrong with what spurminator suggested? A pick-and-roll WOULD involve Wade passing the ball to the screener, at least under certain situations, he never said that the sole purpose of the pick and roll was to have the ball passed to the screener. Besides, the plays the Heat was running was setting multiple screens for Wade, not pick and rolls.
What you were suggesting is that the play was set for the sole purpose of not passing the ball to the screener. Or did you mean that the purpose of the pick and roll is create an advantage rather than for the sole purpose of passing the ball to the screener? Which was not you originally said.

implacable44

12-09-2005, 04:54 PM

What is wrong with what spurminator suggested? A pick-and-roll WOULD involve Wade passing the ball to the screener, at least under certain situations, he never said that the sole purpose of the pick and roll was to have the ball passed to the screener. Besides, the plays the Heat was running was setting multiple screens for Wade, not pick and rolls.
What you were suggesting is that the play was set for the sole purpose of not passing the ball to the screener. Or did you mean that the purpose of the pick and roll is create an advantage rather than for the sole purpose of passing the ball to the screener? Which was not you originally said.

that is what i originally said wangchung - read my entire post and take it as a whole instead of picking one phrase - the spurminator only mentioned one purpose of the pick and roll - to get the ball to the guy setting the pick that is it - he said nothing else. I mentioned all possibilities and i said the sole purpose of the pick and roll is to create opportunities because you force the defense to make a decision reacting to your pick and roll. I know you are not as stupid as you are pretending to be. it is funny because you demanded an apology from me when i was wrong a few months ago and here you are holding on to this stupid act -- it is like the chinese lady who tried to charge me $70 to dry clean some of my suits - then she pretended like she couldn't speak very good english

Solid D

12-09-2005, 05:01 PM

I'd be interested to know what picnroll has to say. His name is being used in some fairly inappropriate ways.

Useruser666

12-09-2005, 05:20 PM

Bruce Bowen doesn't even know how to spell your name Solid D!

Aggie Hoopsfan

12-09-2005, 07:05 PM

anybody who can go off the dribble loves guys like you because that is an easy bucket or foul. LOVE IT. I would give you 50.

:lol That's the same thing Kobe was thinking before Bowen forced him into 9-33.

smeagol

12-09-2005, 07:28 PM

I'm waiting for Implacable to say that Bruce sneaked his feet under Wade on purpose

leemajors

12-10-2005, 01:20 AM

rasho > dampier, and less brittle too.

ambchang

12-10-2005, 01:48 AM

that is what i originally said wangchung - read my entire post and take it as a whole instead of picking one phrase - the spurminator only mentioned one purpose of the pick and roll - to get the ball to the guy setting the pick that is it - he said nothing else. I mentioned all possibilities and i said the sole purpose of the pick and roll is to create opportunities because you force the defense to make a decision reacting to your pick and roll. I know you are not as stupid as you are pretending to be. it is funny because you demanded an apology from me when i was wrong a few months ago and here you are holding on to this stupid act -- it is like the chinese lady who tried to charge me $70 to dry clean some of my suits - then she pretended like she couldn't speak very good english

I did read the entire post, and I read what spurminator. There wasn't one instance where he mentioned that the pick and roll has the sole purpose of passing the ball to the screener, he mentioned that a pick and roll would involve passes to the screener, and you replied by saying that the purpose of the screen and roll is to not pass the ball to the screener.
Again, EVERY SINGLE offensive play was to create confusion and gain an offensive advantage, perhaps you pointing out something not as blatantly obvious would have been at least constructive.
Whatever happened to the intent of the post? Ever replied to that one?

sprrs

12-10-2005, 03:15 AM

same with Rasho Nesterovic. Mr softy.

Very true, but if it meant giving up Bowen for Wallace, no way

Useruser666

12-10-2005, 02:19 PM

So how about Bowen on Pierce?

Pierce, dogged throughout by Bruce Bowen, had a particularly frustrating 24-point, 7-for-17 night. Though Ricky Davis heated up for a 10-point fourth, he and Pierce shot a combined 16-for-35 and spent most of their time struggling to find an opening.

And did anyone else remember Stromile Swift's first quarter against Atlanta and then his production for the next three quarters? Who was guarding him?