American Government

[Horry For 3!]

Are there anyone good at American Government, I have the final Tuesday and I have like 5 questions left on my review to answer and I can't find the answers. I'll post the questions to see if anyone knows the answer. Anyone out there that is willing to help me?

6. Which of the following requires auto-manufactures to reduce auto-emissions or face fines.


8. Writers of the Constitution were torn between what? What did they want out of government? What did they fear out of government? (I could probably find this one)


44. Anti-trust regulations reduce inequality by doing what?


45. When the government breaks up a company or organization, what was meant to happen?


47. The first popular spurt in favor of government regulation was prompted by what?


All of those questions I have no idea besides #8.

[midgetonadonkey]

I think number 6 is the Clean Air Act and 47 may have something to do with the book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair that had something to do with terrible working conditions in the Chicago meat packing plants.

I may be wrong.

[Horry For 3!]

Anyone willing to help?

[Horry For 3!]

I think number 6 is the Clean Air Act and 47 may have something to do with the book The Jungle by Upton Sinclair that had something to do with terrible working conditions in the Chicago meat packing plants.

I may be wrong.
I remember him talking about the meat packing plants now that you mentioned that, I think you may be right. Excellent. Thanks.

[Horry For 3!]

That leaves 8, 44 & 45 left.

[TOP-CHERRY]

8. Writers of the Constitution were torn between what? What did they want out of government? What did they fear out of government? (I could probably find this one)
Torn between decisions about representation in Congress (big states wanted to be represented according to population, while that was unfair to smaller states, so they decided on a bicameral legislature), who would have the right to vote (they left it to the states), and how to count the slaves for population and tax purposes (3/5 Compromise). And they feared a powerful central government.

[Horry For 3!]

Alright, between 2 websites, everyone has answered the questions. Thanks all :elephant now I can study

[iminlakerland]

Horry # 45 has to do with market monopolies, dealing with Antitrust Laws that intend to promote greater economic competition. Refer to the Clayton Antitrust act of 1914.

Hope this helps

[1Parker1]

44 & 45 I believe are related. Anti-Trust reduce inequality by creating more open competition between businesses. 45: Govern breaks up company to keep them from forming monopolies and keeping competition open and thus prices lower.

[1Parker1]

:lol Lakerland beat me to it! Fast typer!

[1Parker1]

Alright now, who knows about the Eurobond market, Currency Swaps, Derivatives, and Stock Options?

[iminlakerland]

LoL i actually thought about my Poli Sci class back in 2001 lol... i cant believe i still have retained that information :) im pretty proud of myself...brought back memories of me going to class with crutches after a bball injury lol! In order to forget the pain i focused on the lecture lol!

[iminlakerland]

Alright now, who knows about the Eurobond market, Currency Swaps, Derivatives, and Stock Options?

:( got a finance final on tuesday, all im thinking about right now is Leverage, IRR, WACC...I cant wait till this class is over loL!

[1Parker1]

:( got a finance final on tuesday, all im thinking about right now is Leverage, IRR, WACC...I cant wait till this class is over loL!

:lol I have that on Thursday. Good ol Capital Asset Pricing Model. Fun Shit. :spin

[iminlakerland]

:lol I have that on Thursday. Good ol Capital Asset Pricing Model. Fun Shit. :spin

Hmm guessing you are a finance major? I'm so glad this is going to be my last finance course...

[Horry For 3!]

One more question....

50. Which president initiated and proposed more liberal legislature than other president since the concession of the United States?

[Trainwreck2100]

One more question....

50. Which president initiated and proposed more liberal legislature than other president since the concession of the United States?


I'd have to go with Roosevelt.

[MannyIsGod]

Horry, nothing personal but I'm going to rant here about many students in general....


These are very simple and fundemental tenants of American history/government. There is tons of information a google away if not in your notes. I don't understand why so many students - especially those in college - want information liket his spoonfed to them.

This is one reason BA/BS degrees are worth so little now. The sad fact is that universities are graduating students who need reviews as simple as this broken down. Take some inititave and use the index in your history text book and I guarntee you can find the answers to each one of those questions.

I can't tell you how often I've been asked to "give" someone answers for a review. The point of going to college and taking these courses isn't to regurgitate information. It is to learn the importance of that information and understand why it is important to begin with.

I know people with UTSA degrees in subjects such as English who display high school literacy levels. I'm really sad that a 4 year degree is now the equivilant of a high school diploma.

[Trainwreck2100]

I know someone in college who could not do multiplication tables. How do you graduate w/out that?

[mikejones99]

Walmart saves lives.

[midgetonadonkey]

You know the higher education system in this country is fucked up when Shaq has his masters.

[MannyIsGod]

I know someone in college who could not do multiplication tables. How do you graduate w/out that?
Jekka is in all upper level history classes that should only be filled with juniors and seniors at UTSA and at one point this semester one of her professors had to give a 30 minute lecture on what a thesis statment is and how to develop it.

What the fuck? Freshman comp anyone?

[Jekka]

Edit: Manny stole my example.

[Horry For 3!]

Horry, nothing personal but I'm going to rant here about many students in general....


These are very simple and fundemental tenants of American history/government. There is tons of information a google away if not in your notes. I don't understand why so many students - especially those in college - want information liket his spoonfed to them.

This is one reason BA/BS degrees are worth so little now. The sad fact is that universities are graduating students who need reviews as simple as this broken down. Take some inititave and use the index in your history text book and I guarntee you can find the answers to each one of those questions.

I can't tell you how often I've been asked to "give" someone answers for a review. The point of going to college and taking these courses isn't to regurgitate information. It is to learn the importance of that information and understand why it is important to begin with.

I know people with UTSA degrees in subjects such as English who display high school literacy levels. I'm really sad that a 4 year degree is now the equivilant of a high school diploma.
Actually some of those questions are not even in the book. One of my friends told me one of the answers and I remembered about the professor talking about it but I must have forgot to put it in my notes as well as midgetonadonkey with his answer and I forgot to put it in my notes. Also I did google all those questions and couldn't find anything.

[Horry For 3!]

Jekka is in all upper level history classes that should only be filled with juniors and seniors at UTSA and at one point this semester one of her professors had to give a 30 minute lecture on what a thesis statment is and how to develop it.

What the fuck? Freshman comp anyone?
Now that is just pathetic :lol

[Horry For 3!]

But actually about Government, I could careless, I just have to have a year of American & State Government so I am taking it to get it over with. My major is Sports Information.

[MannyIsGod]

But actually about Government, I could careless, I just have to have a year of American & State Government so I am taking it to get it over with. My major is Sports Information.
And thus the devaluation of the 4 year degree. Universities have turned into trade schools (and poor ones at that) as opposed to places of higher learning.

[Horry For 3!]

I mean I learned a lot of stuff in my class but I didn't know about those questions.

[midgetonadonkey]

Actually some of those questions are not even in the book. One of my friends told me one of the answers and I remembered about the professor talking about it but I must have forgot to put it in my notes as well as midgetonadonkey with his answer and I forgot to put it in my notes. Also I did google all those questions and couldn't find anything.

There are more valuable resource tools than google. If you log onto your library's website, you can use the databases they provide for exactly this purpose.

[Horry For 3!]

There are more valuable resource tools than google. If you log onto your library's website, you can use the databases they provide for exactly this purpose.
My public library? I don't even think it even has a site :lol I live in a small town, Karnes City

[midgetonadonkey]

My public library? I don't even think it even has a site :lol I live in a small town, Karnes City

Your college library.

[Horry For 3!]

Your college library.
Oh, ok. I don't think they have a site either but i'll check.

[midgetonadonkey]

http://vct.coastalbend.edu/content/index.cfm/fa/viewpage/category_id/206.htm

This should take you straight to their list of databases. Start off with Academic Search Premier, that one has the broadest collection of material.

[Horry For 3!]

http://vct.coastalbend.edu/content/index.cfm/fa/viewpage/category_id/206.htm

This should take you straight to their list of databases. Start off with Academic Search Premier, that one has the broadest collection of material.
Please enter you email username and password.
Username:
Password:

If your email address is [email protected]
then you would enter just student1234 for the user name.


I don't have an e-mail. I don't think they ever give you an student e-mail unless you ask for one.

[midgetonadonkey]

You sound pretty fucked then.

[Horry For 3!]

You sound pretty fucked then.
I wonder if I put in some teacher's e-mail if it would work :lol

[Horry For 3!]

I wonder if I put in some teacher's e-mail if it would work :lol
Nope didn't work :depressed

[midgetonadonkey]

If you know their password. Seriously though, if you find out your email address and password, you should take advantage of those databases. Your library fees pay for those so since you pay for them might as well use them. It's a big help.

[Horry For 3!]

If you know their password. Seriously though, if you find out your email address and password, you should take advantage of those databases. Your library fees pay for those so since you pay for them might as well use them. It's a big help.
I will have to go and ask for an student e-mail to have one. They won't give you one unless you ask for one.

[MannyIsGod]

I use Jekka's access to UTSA's academic databses all the time. JSTOR is indeed good shit.

[midgetonadonkey]

I use Jekka's access to UTSA's academic databses all the time. JSTOR is indeed good shit.

You got that right my friend.

[iminlakerland]

Many of those sites are great resources for all students, but the sad thing about it is, many arent informed that these services are provided for them. I myself did not know until i spoke to a professor a few years ago at my community college.

In order for me to access these sites I was required to go to the library and be given the schools ID# and password for me to even create an account. Had I not enquired about more information i would have never known. There are unlimited amount of resources on those sites that help all college students, but unfortunately colleges dont inform their students, and that is a shame, especially since the student technically pays for it with their tuition.

[Horry For 3!]

Many of those sites are great resources for all students, but the sad thing about it is, many arent informed that these services are provided for them. I myself did not know until i spoke to a professor a few years ago at my community college.

In order for me to access these sites I was required to go to the library and be given the schools ID# and password for me to even create an account. Had I not enquired about more information i would have never known. There are unlimited amount of resources on those sites that help all college students, but unfortunately colleges dont inform their students, and that is a shame, especially since the student technically pays for it with their tuition.
Yeah, I had no idea there was even one until he mentioned it in here.

[Silver21_Black20]

Check the back of your textbook, sometimes there is a website for further resources and other help.

[Kdfelicity]

Shit, you think Amer. govt is hard? Ha!

Wait till you get to World Civilization...and I have the POS final tommorow...wish me luck!!

[SpursWoman]

Damn....I wish I would have had the internet when I was in college to find all my answers for me. It's not fair, dammit....I actually had to work at it. :depressed



I liked World Civilization better than American Government....good luck! :)

[Samr]

Jekka is in all upper level history classes that should only be filled with juniors and seniors at UTSA and at one point this semester one of her professors had to give a 30 minute lecture on what a thesis statment is and how to develop it.


Wow....and I thought it was bad when we had a similar lecture in my senior (HS) speech class. It is times like this that I lose what little remaining faith I have in humanity.

Personally, I think the entire American system of education is fucked up. I firmly believe that, starting as young as a freshman in highschool, it is clear which students have an aptitude for certain areas (i.e. math, English, history, etc). If someone is good with numbers, and especially if he likes them, then there is no shame in pushing him towards a career such as engineering, architecture, et al. Similarly, if someone is a natural writer, and has absolutely no aptitude or interest in calculations, then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO FEED THE KID SHIT HE WON'T KEEP DOWN!?!?!

Our entire system of education is based upon "allowing opportunities for success" and putting every kind of bait in the water with the hopes that the kid will bite on a hook he likes. That's great and all, but why waste your time putting stink bait on hooks when you're fishing for bass instead of catfish? Why not, as soon as it become apparent that the kid is going to follow a certain route, remove all the excess bullcrap classes in his way and instead put more hooks in the water with the kind of food he likes? Why not, when someone declares a major, give him only classes RELEVANT TO MAKING HIM THE BEST POSSIBLE STUDENT HE CAN BE WITH HIS DEGREE?

Why not? Because you still have juniors and seniors in college without the basic intelligence necessary to understand what a fucking thesis is.

[FromWayDowntown]

I couldn't agree more with Manny on this point. Bachelor's degrees are worth nothing now, for the most part, because there is no real emphasis on learning anything. The curriculum seems bent more towards providing information that is regurgitated on an examination without any need for critical thought or analysis, both of which are essential to learning anything.

I also don't understand anyone who could say that he could care less about a course in government, since what the government does and how the government works are among the most important things citizens of this country need to know. The idea that one shouldn't be concerned with anything that is beyond his major would make that person someone I wouldn't want to hire; professionals who are only competent and knowledgable in their own fields don't tend to be great at what they choose to do.

[iminlakerland]

To take this talk further I realized what i do for classes that I am really not interested in or really hate. I usually study for the teacher and not the class. The problem is most people arent studying to learn and retain the information, but more and more people including myself (in a few classes) are studying the teacher, once you figure out what he wants, its pretty much a guaranteed A for me atleast.

But as far as the classes ive been taking that are my upper division business core, i think they are all interesting and very important not only in the business world but for anyone who deals with groups/money etc.

[Kdfelicity]

I liked World Civilization better than American Government....good luck! :)

Thanks SW. I need some...:shootme

[iminlakerland]

I actually liked American Government 100X more than World Civilizations!

[MannyIsGod]

Upper division classes are just interesting as hell. I've gone to sit in on Jess' classes just because I find the material fascinating. I think that fascination is what is missing from many college student bodies. Everyone wants to get a job and they've been told you need to get a degree first but no one actually wants to learn the material.

[SpursWoman]

I actually liked American Government 100X more than World Civilizations!

:lol

History was my favorite subject all through high school & college...I actually wanted to teach it. But I ended up majoring in accounting. :wtf http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif

[iminlakerland]

:lol

History was my favorite subject all through high school & college...I actually wanted to teach it. But I ended up majoring in accounting. :wtf http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif

Good God lol...honestly tho i somewhat looked into accounting as a career but after financial and managerial accounting i decided it wasnt for me. If you like what you do tho all power to you. But hey everyone needs an accountant lol :)

[Horry For 3!]

Shit, you think Amer. govt is hard? Ha!

Wait till you get to World Civilization...and I have the POS final tommorow...wish me luck!!
No. I just couldn't find those 5 questions.

[Horry For 3!]

I couldn't agree more with Manny on this point. Bachelor's degrees are worth nothing now, for the most part, because there is no real emphasis on learning anything. The curriculum seems bent more towards providing information that is regurgitated on an examination without any need for critical thought or analysis, both of which are essential to learning anything.

I also don't understand anyone who could say that he could care less about a course in government, since what the government does and how the government works are among the most important things citizens of this country need to know. The idea that one shouldn't be concerned with anything that is beyond his major would make that person someone I wouldn't want to hire; professionals who are only competent and knowledgable in their own fields don't tend to be great at what they choose to do.
I wouldn't want you to hire me whatever you do anyways.

[MannyIsGod]

I wouldn't want you to hire me whatever you do anyways.
:lol

FWD, when you make partner (I'm assuming you haven't already) at a firm, hire me as an associate. :D

[Kori Ellis]

:lol

FWD, when you make partner (I'm assuming you haven't already) at a firm, hire me as an associate. :D

I think FWD is already a partner if I'm not mistaken.

... Hmm.. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[King]

In all fairness, classes aren't even taught like that anymore. A lot of teachers don't care that you know why or how - they just care that you know it. I've had math teachers give a 'you just do' answers when someone needs an explanation.

Or teachers let you bring a 3x5 notecard to tests.

The teachers care about it as little as the students do.

[1Parker1]

That is very true. Undergraduate degrees are becoming less and less valuable. Simply because like FWD said, there's more an emphasis on "textbook learning" and just trying to memorize the info for the exam or whatever, and there's less emphasis on how concepts and theories can be applied in the Real World. I find that I'm learning so much more from my internship than I am from a textbook.

[Samr]

You know normally I think GiG is a complete ass, if not an irreperable idiot, but that was damn funny and I don't care who you are.

[iminlakerland]

It's many of the lower division GE classes that i have disliked especially when teachers read right out of the text book. When teachers use the socratic form i find the class very interesting. I agree its great to diversify yourself and not just be interested in your own subject, but lets be honest there are many professors who could care less, come very unprepared to class and know they will be taking home a paycheck at the end of the month.

[cecil collins]

:jack

Dude, what the fuck are you doing your life that is so great?

Why does it matter if Horry for 3! wants some help on a class he needs to pass but has no interest in?

When you become a fuckin billionaire, we might take you seriously. Stop complaining about the fucking world...u can't change it.

Manny, do yourself a favor:

Take a midol, drive to Walmart, and buy a 40-pack of tampons
So only billionaires are taken seriously? He makes some very valid points, unlike yourself.

[easjer]

I have to contribute a couple things to this discussion.

One, I work for the honors program at a large university in Houston. We lose more and more kids every year because our classes 'are too hard' and 'take up too much time' and 'aren't in my degree.' Too many kids today are going to school because that is what you do next. Without any aim. Or to make more money. So it's a race to get out as quickly as possible and get a job. But given that the educations they recieve aren't worth much these days (it's been devalued by commonality and decreasing expectations and poor preparation) they start entry level when they could have done that four years earlier and be making more money now. And have someone else pay for their degree when they need it.

On top of that? Kids are not prepared for college. Everyday, I answer emails asking what an 'academic essay' is (required for our applications) and we even get plagarized admissions essays. I TA'd a basic American Government course when I was a senior for my dear friend is now losing a battle to pancreatic cancer. To give you an example of my experiences from that class:

First test, essay portion, choice of questions. One question asks about "The American Declaration of Government" and it's impact (all questions were argument driven, not informational respones, meaning they had to take a side and make an argument). Of course, there is no such document - it was a misprint. The question should have referred to the Dec. of Independence. We caught our error and made an announcement in class explaining the error. Some people went ahead and wrote about the Dec of Independence. But I graded (and failed) ten essays (from my thirty-fourty students) on the Declaration of Goverment. A document which does not exist.

Another example? Second test. On Thanksgiving Day, I graded an essay about how the Pilgrims left France to establish religious intolerance on the English in America. And the non-native students (many of whom barely spoke English, they must have had a very difficult time in this class) did way better, despite horrifying essays.


A final example? This professor, when he came to the University? For this American Goverment class, his booklist was 14 books long. The department chair told him it was too short and not academically rigorous enough. The last time he taught the course (2001 - when I was a TA), they told him the same booklist was too extensive and would be impossible to cover in the timespan of a single semester, and he ought to go down to six books, maximum.

[SWC Bonfire]

Upper division classes are just interesting as hell. I've gone to sit in on Jess' classes just because I find the material fascinating. I think that fascination is what is missing from many college student bodies. Everyone wants to get a job and they've been told you need to get a degree first but no one actually wants to learn the material.

Manny, you can't be facinated in everything. American government is decidedly not upper level, at least the questions he was asking were pretty basic.

What's your degree in, Manny? I had a cousin that was "facinated" with all sorts of classes in college. He never graduated, because it takes more than facination to get a degree. It takes determination to take and complete courses that you are not interested in because they are obstacles that must be surpassed in order for you to get to your goal.

[SWC Bonfire]

That is very true. Undergraduate degrees are becoming less and less valuable. Simply because like FWD said, there's more an emphasis on "textbook learning" and just trying to memorize the info for the exam or whatever, and there's less emphasis on how concepts and theories can be applied in the Real World. I find that I'm learning so much more from my internship than I am from a textbook.

I was quite fortunate that an emphasis on real world, practical use of my education was stressed throughout my time at school. It probably has as much to do with the school (TAMU) as well as the subject matter at hand (engineering).

[Cant_Be_Faded]

JSTOR is indeed good shit.

:tu :tu

hyeah

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Wow, hearing all this shit you guys are talking about the common college student sure does boost my self esteem at least.

[xrayzebra]

I was quite fortunate that an emphasis on real world, practical use of my education was stressed throughout my time at school. It probably has as much to do with the school (TAMU) as well as the subject matter at hand (engineering).

Boy I hope they emphasised the real world in your degree, I wouldn't
want someone building a bridge that they were fascinated in/by. :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

hahahaha
yeah
I wish i could start over and major in Philosophy. Then I'd be better able to defend my points of view and keep them logically air tight (even if they're totally wrong) :lol

[SpursWoman]

I was quite fortunate that an emphasis on real world, practical use of my education was stressed throughout my time at school.

Me, too ... all of my upper-level accounting classes were taught by part-timers who actually had full time careers in the classes they were teaching, so the real-world lessons/applications were invaluable.

We got to take our Indiviual Tax final using Turbo Tax ... "Because that's what you'll use in the real world." :tu :hat

[xrayzebra]

hahahaha
yeah
Then I'd be better able to defend my points of view and keep them logically air tight (even if they're totally wrong) :lol

I think all of us wish this. Is Santa Clause reading this?
:lol

[SWC Bonfire]

Boy I hope they emphasised the real world in your degree, I wouldn't
want someone building a bridge that they were fascinated in/by. :lol

Good point.

I was quite fortunate that I went to one of the best engineering schools in the country (yes, the t-sippers are good, too). That is one thing that the state of Texas has done well: they went a long way to ensure that adequate technical knowledge is available statewide. I think that the Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas was a good investment back in 1876.

[JoeChalupa]

I need to go back to school in the worse way.

[SpursWoman]

hahahaha
yeah
I wish i could start over and major in Philosophy. Then I'd be better able to defend my points of view and keep them logically air tight (even if they're totally wrong) :lol


I had more hours in philosophy than I did in my *minor*....they offered some awesome classes that I just couldn't resist...

Making me the philosophizing accountant, :lol

[xrayzebra]

Good point.

I was quite fortunate that I went to one of the best engineering schools in the country (yes, the t-sippers are good, too). That is one thing that the state of Texas has done well: they went a long way to ensure that adequate technical knowledge is available statewide. I think that the Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas was a good investment back in 1876.


Well one problem I have is that I have one Grandchild who graduated from
UT-Austin and one going to A&M-Galveston and one who graduated from
Texas-Tech-Lubbock and I like football....so, sometimes things get a little
hairy. :lol :lol

[SWC Bonfire]

I need to go back to school in the worse way.

Well, one of the benefits of a college education was the ability and wherewithal to dig for the information needed to complete a task. I will agree with Manny's earlier post and say that this has been diminished somewhat as the years have passed.

That said, an older graduate probably has a lot more invested in their degree, and takes it more seriously.

[xrayzebra]

Good point.

I was quite fortunate that I went to one of the best engineering schools in the country.

I have a good friend who graduated from the Naval Academy and went to
A&M for his engineering degree, he would definitely agree with you on A&M's
standards in Engineering. His field was Civil Engineering. Of course he
ended his Engineering career in Louisiana working for the Highway Department, which he got thoroughly hated. He did a lot of work on the
interstate which runs from North/South.

[TurnNiggazDreams2Flames]

Fuck American Government

[pache100]

Damn....I wish I would have had the internet when I was in college to find all my answers for me. It's not fair, dammit....I actually had to work at it. :depressed

ME, TOO!!!! I would have been in heaven with the internet when I was in college.


I liked World Civilization better than American Government....good luck! :)

I loved both; I like Government classes better AFTER you get past the "philosophy" parts. I hate that crap. Just give me the guts...I don't really want to know "why?" in this case.

[1Parker1]

I think the biggest problem is the curriculum. Generally, you have to declare your major in your second year, however, you don't really start taking your "major" classes--those upper level classes that directly relate to your major, until Junior and Senior year. And people realize to late that what they thought the major/subject was about is actually quite different than what it actually is. And therefore, they find out they don't really like it, but continue to major in it because they've spend the last 3 years gearing towards it.

BTW, :tu to my fellow accountant SpursWoman! We rock! :nerd :nerd :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

I think FWD is already a partner if I'm not mistaken.

... Hmm.. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Not a partner -- not yet, anyway. Staying where I am, I'm still a couple of years away from that, but that's cool.

The work I get in my current job varies from day-to-day and case-to-case. Like a diverse college curriculum, is "fascinating" to me, which I'm sure will get a rise out of some straight line thinkers and challenging.

My point in the earlier post comes from the truth that if all I knew was law, I wouldn't be a very good lawyer. Every day I work, I call on the education I have in history and government and philosophy and psychology and sociology and literature and countless other subjects. Had I just gone to class to regurgitate facts from a textbook and not spent time thinking about those other subjects and actually learning something about each of them, I wouldn't be any good at my job.


FWD, when you make partner (I'm assuming you haven't already) at a firm, hire me as an associate.

I'd be happy to, Manny. :D

[FromWayDowntown]

I wouldn't want you to hire me whatever you do anyways.

Sure. I'm not in your field. But I have friends in a variety of fields and I'm pretty certain that they'd all prefer someone who excelled with a well-rounded educational background over someone who didn't care about certain classes because they weren't within a particular major.

[easjer]

Man, political theory is the best part of government. I LOVE Machiavelli and Thucydides. Of course, par tof why I love Thucydides is because I'm a Thucydidean historian. I like political history over social history nearly any day of the week. It's where the action is.

Anyhow, I'm a nerd, because I loved college and being required to take outside classes (except math classes. Blech.). I wanted the educational experience. It's generally done well for me. I still think about writing the thesis I started on a Machiavellian reading of the Reformation (ie, if the Church had admitted it was not an eccesliastical prinicpality and followed Machiavelli's advice in The Prince, they could have maintained their political hold on Germany and England, but instead, by acting in the way they did they were destined to lose out to Protestantism).

Happy sigh.

[easjer]

Of course . . . I haven't been able to do much with my BA in History. I need a much higher degree to make it job applicable, and well, yeah. It's a serviceable enough basic degree, and I'm happy I went into history instead of sticking with theatre, but I also wish (now in the midst of a job search with three years of professional work and increasing responsibility) that I'd gotten a different degree that would aid in actually getting a decent job.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Man, political theory is the best part of government. I LOVE Machiavelli and Thucydides. Of course, par tof why I love Thucydides is because I'm a Thucydidean historian. I like political history over social history nearly any day of the week. It's where the action is.

Anyhow, I'm a nerd, because I loved college and being required to take outside classes (except math classes. Blech.). I wanted the educational experience. It's generally done well for me. I still think about writing the thesis I started on a Machiavellian reading of the Reformation (ie, if the Church had admitted it was not an eccesliastical prinicpality and followed Machiavelli's advice in The Prince, they could have maintained their political hold on Germany and England, but instead, by acting in the way they did they were destined to lose out to Protestantism).

Happy sigh.


is thucydides the guy who wrote the 'account' of the peleponesian war in which he basically argued for moral relativism?

[easjer]

Argued for moral relativism? I so completely disagree with that - look at the way he handles the question of justice! The way he utilizes the speeches/dialogue in the book make it entirely clear that he disagrees with the way Athens handles the latter parts of the war. Look at how justice is handled from the early Corcyrean debate to the Mytelinean Debate to the Melian dialogue! Thucydides takes a clear stance that justice is NOT merely the advantage of the stronger, as the Athenians claim to the Melians.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

.

[Johnny Tightlips]

Who said I been slaughterin' and rapin'?

[easjer]

Sorry, Cant_Be_Faded, I get excited about that topic. I wrote a very long term paper on it for one of my senior history classes on historiography. It was probably the best paper I ever wrote (the prof said that I should lengthen it and submit it for publication or as a shining example of my work for grad schools, but I changed my mind about fast-tracking a PhD).

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so you're saying he used the athenian brutality to argue against brutality
right

[SpursWoman]

Of course . . . I haven't been able to do much with my BA in History.....but I also wish (now in the midst of a job search with three years of professional work and increasing responsibility) that I'd gotten a different degree that would aid in actually getting a decent job.


Which is why I am now the philosophizing accountant. :fro :lol

[Peter]

So the kid had work to be done and he went about it in an expeditious manner by positing some queries to this hotbed of internet know-it-alls. Perhaps he won't be a prof one day or a master googler, but he has a good chance to be one who will get shit done, which the last time I checked is what helps one to procure and maintain gainful employment.

[easjer]

so you're saying he used the athenian brutality to argue against brutality
right


Nooooo, that's not what I am saying. Take a closer look at the Melian Dialogue. First, we know it's an important speech in the narrative because it's not a public one, and it's in a dialogue format, not a dialectical argument. Because this was an account a) in private and b) after his own exile, this is one 'speech' Thucydides himself crafted.

In that dialogue, the Athenians scoff at justice as an universal truth, scoff at the Gods and in other ways indicate that they are immoral (their disregard for what is right, what is traditional, their insistence on violence, their greed). The Melians plead for their homes arguing what had previously been argued and accepted as valid argument (justice as an universal truth, rather than abstract concept) by Cleon, no less (who, remember, Thucydides hates - but nevertheless has speaking for the truth because it's an important point). The Athens crush the Melians anyway, and look at the prose there.

The dialogues are always Thucydides way of representing the major questions and his own impressions of the answers to them. At most, you could argue that he doesn't present a clear cut answer to the questions, but I think it would be difficult to argue that he was the first relativist philosopher.

[1369]

Nooooo, that's not what I am saying. Take a closer look at the Melian Dialogue. First, we know it's an important speech in the narrative because it's not a public one, and it's in a dialogue format, not a dialectical argument. Because this was an account a) in private and b) after his own exile, this is one 'speech' Thucydides himself crafted.

In that dialogue, the Athenians scoff at justice as an universal truth, scoff at the Gods and in other ways indicate that they are immoral (their disregard for what is right, what is traditional, their insistence on violence, their greed). The Melians plead for their homes arguing what had previously been argued and accepted as valid argument (justice as an universal truth, rather than abstract concept) by Cleon, no less (who, remember, Thucydides hates - but nevertheless has speaking for the truth because it's an important point). The Athens crush the Melians anyway, and look at the prose there.

The dialogues are always Thucydides way of representing the major questions and his own impressions of the answers to them. At most, you could argue that he doesn't present a clear cut answer to the questions, but I think it would be difficult to argue that he was the first relativist philosopher.

Ok, that made my brain hurt.

Since you're so into history, why don't you consider teaching?

[easjer]

I'm not certified to teach. And the certification process makes my brain hurt. I basically have to shell out a bunch of $ I don't have to take classes that most people agree are a total joke for the honor of baby-sitting a bunch of teenagers.

It's hard to teach today. My parents are/were both teachers (my dad teaches . . . yep, history and government) and neither of them think I'd do very well at it. I tend to agree now. I don't have much patience for stupidity and bureaucracy, and that's about where things land in public schools these days. There is no more focus on fundamentals and no real accountability for actually learning anything. Children in the late 1800's who only went to 8th grade were better educated than most of our high school graduates today.

And I would be much more interested in teaching in higher education, but the students aren't really that much better since thei fundamentals are so off. And acadmia sucks. It's so cutthroat. And I don't think I'm smart enough for it. And especially history - there isn't much new to say about it, so everyone has to try a new slant on it (feminist, colonialist) and that not of much use, in my opinion. And it doesn't pay well unless you take on an insane number of classes or make tenure.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Thucydides takes a clear stance that justice is NOT merely the advantage of the stronger, as the Athenians claim to the Melians


At most, you could argue that he doesn't present a clear cut answer to the questions, but I think it would be difficult to argue that he was the first relativist philosopher.

que?

[easjer]

I'm arguing that he did take a stand. I don't think you can argue the opposite, that he embraced relativity. I am saying that at most, I think you can argue he never states his own opinions on the larger philosophical questions he clearly presents.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny, you can't be facinated in everything. American government is decidedly not upper level, at least the questions he was asking were pretty basic.
Go back and read the posts in the proper context. The fascination was aimed at upper level course students, not Horry. In fact, as I stated to begin with, none of the posts were directed at Horry but at at the general student population and its collective mindset.



What's your degree in, Manny? I had a cousin that was "facinated" with all sorts of classes in college. He never graduated, because it takes more than facination to get a degree. It takes determination to take and complete courses that you are not interested in because they are obstacles that must be surpassed in order for you to get to your goal. I choose to enter the workforce after high school. I've held down several jobs due to my fascination that all requried degrees to hold. That shows you how valuable those 4 year degress are now. I held jobs with fortune 500 companies that required a 4 year degree in marketing simply because I displayed an ability to do things college graduates couldn't do and a better understanding of what was to be their core material.

Anyhow, In a couple of years I'll be done with my Bachelors in PoliSci. Then after several more years, I'll be done with Law School. Regardless, when I reenter the professional work force, I will be far better off than a typical holder of a 4 year degree due to the experience I already hold under my belt.

But lots of determination? Right. I'm sorry, but the realitve ease of most University degree plans is ridiculous now. UTSA's business students are regarded incredibly lowly by the companies around town for this reason. And its a damn shame for the students in other departments who are still undertaking a large workload to have their degrees valued by association.

By the way, you made my point quite nicely that Universities have turned into glorified trade schools. You shouldn't try to contradict someone and then enforce what they are saying.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I'm arguing that he did take a stand. I don't think you can argue the opposite, that he embraced relativity. I am saying that at most, I think you can argue he never states his own opinions on the larger philosophical questions he clearly presents.


I never said he embraced relativity, i was asking if he did. I've read most of the melian dialogue and knew that it was different from the rest of his histories, but i haven't read thucydides so didn't know what context it was in within his overall work.

So do you think he thought the Athenians wrong or right

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Manny what exactly do you mean by trade schools

[MannyIsGod]

I think unless you are in a humanities program/sciences/arts program at a typical university, the primary focus is on getting people in and out the door with degrees. The more people the better. Quantity over quality. And why I don't think this is the case at many of the nations better schools, I'm sure it is the case at all of the nations "commuter" and smaller schools that are publicly funded.

When you can turn to your state legislature and say "Hi we're UTEP we graduted 129028402842084 students last year we need more money" or "Hi we're UT Pam Am and we did too!" there is obviosly an advandtadge to that approach. UTSA's president is more concerned about securing funding for additional rec centers and a football stadium to add prestiege to the school as opposed to graduating qualified entrants into the work force.

I don't think this nearly applies as much to the schools such as A&M, UT or privately funded schools such as Trinity. They are already well established as schools of higher learning. But most students don't go to those schools.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Ahh, I get it. I think it does apply to those bigger schools to some extent though. Maybe more cuz of the attitude of the student. being a science major, i see premeds around me all the time, who have that 'in and out with a 4.0' mindset programmed into their brains or something

[Peter]

For general management jobs, sales jobs, etc...the value of an undergraduate degree is probably overrated. Salesmanship and people skills cannot be learned in a classroom. While a work ethic can be honed and exhibited in undergrad, it is not necessarily something that you have to go to class to pick up. The likely reason employers look for candidates with an undergrad degree is that it is a quick and simple sorting factor (or signal.) On average, someone who has earned an undergrad degree is probably viewed as having the intellect and discipline to succeed in a certain position. I'm sure that there are plenty of examples to the contrary, but as a general rule, it would seem to work fairly well.

Obviously, for more technical positions (accounting, engineering, etc) an undergraduate education does matter somewhat. I don't know about you, but I could care less if my CPA received an A in Intro to American Government or not. I don't want to discuss John Rawls with an engineer or Keats with my attorney.

[Peter]

The ability to land business is why you often see folks without a stellar educational background having successful careers. Do not underestimate the value of being able to sell something in a professional setting.

[Peter]

If that's what you think, your game is still stuck in college.

[SWC Bonfire]

By the way, you made my point quite nicely that Universities have turned into glorified trade schools. You shouldn't try to contradict someone and then enforce what they are saying.

Its called introducing a discussion. You do it all the time, kettle.

[SWC Bonfire]

Do not underestimate the value of being able to sell something in a professional setting.

Agreed. I know salespeople that have no college education whatsoever, but the skill set that they have naturally matches the job perfectly.

[Peter]

Agreed. I know salespeople that have no college education whatsoever, but the skill set that they have naturally matches the job perfectly.


It's also why at any university you have plenty of profs making $40K a year while peeps without even a BA are millionaires many times over.

[Peter]

If one is not in business to make money then they teach, I guess.

[SWC Bonfire]

some people don't make money their career objective

you have incredibly brilliant people writing textbooks and idiots making millions by being on reality shows

You sure do, and they make their own imprint on society. But instead of bitching about others making more money, perhaps some should realize that there were compromises and decisions that they made that directly affected their income.

[Peter]

My observations were made in the context of this thread, in which the discussion has been about the value of an undergrad degree for a career in business.

[SWC Bonfire]

salesmanship and people skills = ability and willingness to act like something/someone is the greatest thing in the world, regardless of personal conviction

I'm sure that salespeople never sell a product that they personally believe is superior to the competition, or that their company is superior to the competition. :rolleyes

[SWC Bonfire]

anyway i think undergraduate education in this country is getting shittier by the year

1. more grad students and part-time professors teaching classes
2. undergrads who just want a 4 yr/4.0 degree in order to make money
3. undergrads who think they are smarter than the professor and use classtime to argue their own poitns
4. bs classes that professors use just to bounce their own ideas off students for their next book

5. Students (a majority of which are women by my observation and recent enrollment statistics) that are leery of entering the business world and stay in an environment that is more familiar - academia.

Exhibit B, I know three women with advanced degrees who now stay at home with the kids. Not that I'm against that by any means, but you could have saved yourself and your family a lot of $$$.

[SWC Bonfire]

hey and i'm sure a prostitute never has thought his/her client was attractive

I hate to go Shelly/Mookie on you (:lol), but if you've ever had to do a sales job, you know that there is a special set of skills required that are needed to truly excel in that line of business. I did engineered sales for several years, and it was right on the edge of my personal limits.

[MannyIsGod]

SWC is not friendly torwards the women folk.

[SWC Bonfire]

SWC is not friendly torwards the women folk.

???

[Jekka]

5. Students (a majority of which are women by my observation and recent enrollment statistics) that are leery of entering the business world and stay in an environment that is more familiar - academia.

Exhibit B, I know three women with advanced degrees who now stay at home with the kids. Not that I'm against that by any means, but you could have saved yourself and your family a lot of $$$.

I'm so glad they bothered to have the women's lib movement for men like you.

I personally do not know any women who are "leery of entering the business world" - that's bullshit, and you're undermining the integrity of the entire gender. I wonder if you're the same type of guy who calls an ambitious woman a bitch.

And your comment about wasting money to have a degree is pretty sad. Forget that it was a personal achievement for them, or that they might be able to use it when the kids are gone or if they for any reason want to get a job again later.

[Peter]

anyway i think undergraduate education in this country is getting shittier by the year

1. more grad students and part-time professors teaching classes

No doubt. Publish or perish rules the day. Depending on the discipline, you can actually learn more from the part-time prof who has actually had to work in the field instead of someone who has spent their entire career in academia.



2. undergrads who just want a 4 yr/4.0 degree in order to make money


Nothing wrong with that. A little motivation isn't a bad thing.



3. undergrads who think they are smarter than the professor and use classtime to argue their own poitns


No doubt. Nothing is worse than someone who seeks to dominate the airtime in class to stroke their own ego (or the prof's).




4. bs classes that professors use just to bounce their own ideas off students for their next book

Those can be interesting.

[MannyIsGod]

Ah, I hate the fuckers who never shut up in class because they want to talk 10 minutes about a book they read on the subject that nobody cares about. Dipshits.

[MannyIsGod]

I agree with many of MB's points. Salesmanship and the ability to take control of a situation and lead it in a certain direction will take you a million times farther into the business world than any degree on its own.

[Peter]

the problem with the part-timers is a lot of them are 25 year olds who just got their phd, work cheap, and are looking to get published

if you have a discussion-based class where the professor is a genius, then it's cool

but alot of times it will be some ahole ready to plagiarize the 5 most inciteful comments the students make during the semester


Well, I was thinking about the "part-time" prof who is someone who has spent 15 to 20 years doing what the class covers. Yeah, grad students who are learning to teach and have just started learning the subject themselves aren't usually the best choice to lead a course.

[MannyIsGod]

People in that position are much better off teaching on the JC level.

[Peter]

I think that private sector experience should be a requirement to teach in some disciplines (ie accounting, engineering, etc). In high school my physics teacher was a PhD in Geophysics. Probably the best class I had in HS. In undergrad and grad I had a handful of profs who were lecturers with extensive experience. Those were definitely among the best classes I had.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'm so glad they bothered to have the women's lib movement for men like you.

Name one time that I have been rude towards you.


I personally do not know any women who are "leery of entering the business world" - that's bullshit, and you're undermining the integrity of the entire gender. I wonder if you're the same type of guy who calls an ambitious woman a bitch.

I know many. I won't bother everyone with details, nor am I saying that it is wrong or bad in some way (other than a waste of higher educational resources that could have been avoided had they had a clearer vision of what they actually wanted to do). And I can count on one hand the number of women that I have called a bitch in my lifetime (and one time was said jokingly).


And your comment about wasting money to have a degree is pretty sad. Forget that it was a personal achievement for them, or that they might be able to use it when the kids are gone or if they for any reason want to get a job again later.

We're talking some pretty specialized degrees. Would take some serious refresher courses to get back up to speed in 10-20 years from now, and recertification/licencing in one instance.

[Peter]

5. Students (a majority of which are women by my observation and recent enrollment statistics) that are leery of entering the business world and stay in an environment that is more familiar - academia.

Exhibit B, I know three women with advanced degrees who now stay at home with the kids. Not that I'm against that by any means, but you could have saved yourself and your family a lot of $$$.


I think the female attrition is due more to the usual suspects (married life and child bearing and raising) than any fear of working. Academia is also more conducive to being able to swing both roles of mother and professional.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

i never said possessing "salesmanship" or "people skills" wasn't lucrative or that selling a product was easy
i just think the mentality is the equivalent to sucking dick for money

SORRY SENORS


ahahahahahahhahahaha, that's my dawg


this thread rules

[Jekka]

Name one time that I have been rude towards you.

It's not just about me, it's your attitude in general. Otherwise I would have said the "Jessica Lib Movement".




I know many. I won't bother everyone with details, nor am I saying that it is wrong or bad in some way (other than a waste of higher educational resources that could have been avoided had they had a clearer vision of what they actually wanted to do). And I can count on one hand the number of women that I have called a bitch in my lifetime (and one time was said jokingly).

I know just as many men as women you think are wasting higher education rescources without a "clear vision of what they actually want to do". This goes back to the point a couple of people have mentioned that college has become a glorified trade school - it feels like the only people in college who are genuinely there to learn (God forbid) for the sake of becoming more knowledgable - not necessarily with a monetary payoff - are the people in arts, sciences, and humanities. Yes, people who want to don't want to be ignorant members of society are most definitely wasting space :rolleyes


We're talking some pretty specialized degrees. Would take some serious refresher courses to get back up to speed in 10-20 years from now, and recertification/licencing in one instance.

Because it takes so much more time to take a refresher course than it did to get the degree in the first place? What's wrong with having a foundation to go back to? Educating someone is never a "waste" of resources.

[FromWayDowntown]

We're talking some pretty specialized degrees. Would take some serious refresher courses to get back up to speed in 10-20 years from now, and recertification/licencing in one instance.

I went to law school with women who said without equivocation that as soon as they were pregnant, they were done practicing law until their children were grown. Some in my class were angry at that sentiment, but I really don't understand the hostility and think it's badly misplaced. Any person who wishes to better him or herself by attaining degrees should do so. If they are more qualified than others to pursue those degrees, so be it. There's absolutely nothing that says that you must pursue a profession corresponding to a degree.

[Peter]

I went to law school with women who said without equivocation that as soon as they were pregnant, they were done practicing law until their children were grown. Some in my class were angry at that sentiment, but I really don't understand the hostility and think it's badly misplaced. Any person who wishes to better him or herself by attaining degrees should do so. If they are more qualified than others to pursue those degrees, so be it. There's absolutely nothing that says that you must pursue a profession corresponding to a degree.


Does one need to practice law after attaining a law degree to have made such education worthwhile? A law degree is a great asset for one pursuing a career in business generally and specifically in areas such as real estate development and private equity. I am considering applying to an evening law school program for this very reason (or at a minimum picking up some legal casebooks/outlines that cover certain areas).

[FromWayDowntown]

Does one need to practice law after attaining a law degree to have made such education worthwhile? A law degree is a great asset for one pursuing a career in business generally and specifically in areas such as real estate development and private equity. I am considering applying to an evening law school program for this very reason (or at a minimum picking up some legal casebooks/outlines that cover certain areas).

I think a law degree (or any other professional degree) is a worthwhile pursuit, regardless of what one chooses to do after graduation.

But I sense that SWC believes (as do many others, I suppose) that it is a waste of time and resources for the women who would prefer to be mothers to take up a seat in any educational environment if they don't intend to pursue a career after obtaining the degree. I think that's bogus for a number of reasons, many of them outlined eloquently by Jekka.

Frankly, people who pursue learning for the sake of learning are extremely valuable to our society, even if that value isn't expressed in purely economic terms. A stay-at-home mom who is well-educated is quite likely to instill in her children the virtues of learning (as opposed to the virtues of simply going through the motions with sufficient effort to obtain a degree). Working mothers are just as likely to do the same. But a woman who has the choice and decides to stay home with kids shouldn't be derided for her refusal to fulfill some chauvinistic belief concerning what one should or must do with a degree.

[MannyIsGod]

When I win the lotto on Saturday, my career as a professional student will begin.

[FromWayDowntown]

I am considering applying to an evening law school program for this very reason (or at a minimum picking up some legal casebooks/outlines that cover certain areas).

Reading casebooks and outlines are no substitute for law school if your desire is to think critically about the law the way a lawyer does. Law school is much more expensive and occupies much, much more time, but if that's what you're aiming to achieve, there is no comparison between the two options you propose. Law school is only superficially about learning the law; its about learning to think through legal problems and solve them, given some basic tools and research.

The process as a whole, not the substance of any particular course, is what makes law school valuable for those wanting to learn the law

[easjer]

I think a law degree (or any other professional degree) is a worthwhile pursuit, regardless of what one chooses to do after graduation.

But I sense that SWC believes (as do many others, I suppose) that it is a waste of time and resources for the women who would prefer to be mothers to take up a seat in any educational environment if they don't intend to pursue a career after obtaining the degree. I think that's bogus for a number of reasons, many of them outlined eloquently by Jekka.

Frankly, people who pursue learning for the sake of learning are extremely valuable to our society, even if that value isn't expressed in purely economic terms. A stay-at-home mom who is well-educated is quite likely to instill in her children the virtues of learning (as opposed to the virtues of simply going through the motions with sufficient effort to obtain a degree). Working mothers are just as likely to do the same. But a woman who has the choice and decides to stay home with kids shouldn't be derided for her refusal to fulfill some chauvinistic belief concerning what one should or must do with a degree.

Beautifully stated.

Of course I'm the new psycho feminist, so take it with a grain of salt. . . :lol

[SpursWoman]

When I win the lotto on Saturday, my career as a professional student will begin.


:tu :tu :tu


If I could afford it, I would have a PhD in everything. :)

[SWC Bonfire]

I don't think a stay-at-home mother is going to teach her kids graduate-level organic chemistry.

On the other hand, I sure could use a chemist that could come up with a new adhesive to economically bond urethane coated fabric to FRP and/or PE foam.

[MannyIsGod]

:tu :tu :tu


If I could afford it, I would have a PhD in everything. :)
I would probably find a few things to focus on, but if I ever get the knid of funds where I never have to work another day in my life, I'll probably spend my time doing some kind of research.

Oh, the joys it would be to build my own hurricane hunter. :lol

[1369]

On the other hand, I sure could use a chemist that could come up with a new adhesive to economically bond urethane coated fabric to FRP and/or PE foam.

Whatcha trying to make SWC?

You might have a look at this line of stuff Belzona (http://www.belzona.com/)

[Peter]

Reading casebooks and outlines are no substitute for law school if your desire is to think critically about the law the way a lawyer does. Law school is much more expensive and occupies much, much more time, but if that's what you're aiming to achieve, there is no comparison between the two options you propose. Law school is only superficially about learning the law; its about learning to think through legal problems and solve them, given some basic tools and research.

The process as a whole, not the substance of any particular course, is what makes law school valuable for those wanting to learn the law


The thing is, I have no desire to practice as an attorney. My desire is to learn more about specific areas such as land use, real estate transactions and tax, and corporate formation and what not. I feel that given the tradeoffs, reading a few books would be more effective for my purposes than going back to school, though an evening program would make the full experience somewhat more attainable for myself.

[JoeChalupa]

You all are great encouragement for me to get back to school.

I'd think a law degree would be an asset for anyone. Nobody is above the law.

[SWC Bonfire]

Whatcha trying to make SWC?

You might have a look at this line of stuff Belzona (http://www.belzona.com/)

It's a marine application. Doesn't look exactly like what I'm looking for, but thanks for the link, I'll check them out.

[1369]

If nothing more, I can give you the contact info for the local (San Antonio) rep to bounce your need off of. He's a chemical sort from UT (that might give you pause). I've used their products on a few applications in the industrial construction area and they always seem to have something that fits a particular problem we encounter.

[SWC Bonfire]

The thing is, I have no desire to practice as an attorney. My desire is to learn more about specific areas such as land use, real estate transactions and tax, and corporate formation and what not. I feel that given the tradeoffs, reading a few books would be more effective for my purposes than going back to school, though an evening program would make the full experience somewhat more attainable for myself.

I never said anything about taking the initiative to educate yourself. But tying up STATE resources with the knowledge that you will never return the taxpayers of the state the investment that they have made with public money is a waste of resources. If it weren't, schools wouldn't be offering reduced tuition and other incentives for people to get the hell out of school on time and out into the workforce.

[SWC Bonfire]

If nothing more, I can give you the contact info for the local (San Antonio) rep to bounce your need off of. He's a chemical sort from UT (that might give you pause). I've used their products on a few applications in the industrial construction area and they always seem to have something that fits a particular problem we encounter.

PM his contact info. I'll dust off the ol' agriculturer/t-sip translator that I have sitting around here somewhere. :lol

[Peter]

I never said anything about taking the initiative to educate yourself. But tying up STATE resources with the knowledge that you will never return the taxpayers of the state the investment that they have made with public money is a waste of resources. If it weren't, schools wouldn't be offering reduced tuition and other incentives for people to get the hell out of school on time and out into the workforce.


Well, what's the point of PhD programs in the humanities offered by state universities? Not everyone can be a prof, the room isn't likely there.

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, what's the point of PhD programs in the humanities offered by state universities? Not everyone can be a prof, the room isn't likely there.

I never said that the degrees I was speaking of were in the humanities. I'm talking: organic chemistry & mechanical engineering (one of which was a PE). All at a particular state university in College Station, which would kind of like to see that $$$ come back at the very least in the form of some private application or teaching.

[FromWayDowntown]

I never said anything about taking the initiative to educate yourself. But tying up STATE resources with the knowledge that you will never return the taxpayers of the state the investment that they have made with public money is a waste of resources. If it weren't, schools wouldn't be offering reduced tuition and other incentives for people to get the hell out of school on time and out into the workforce.

So, if a woman has a desire to be a stay-at-home mom rather than a working professional, she should be categorically excluded from professional schools? or should there be some requirement that anyone obtaining a professional degree from a state-funded institution be required to fulfill some professional/working requirement for a set period of time following graduation?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth and perhaps your position is more nuanced than I'm understanding, but those strike me as the only two alternatives for ensuring efficient use of state educational resources, and neither strikes me as particularly pragmatic, given that many men who attend professional schools also choose not to enter the fields in which they are professionally degreed. Attending professional school should open opportunities for those who take up that challenge; it shouldn't create obligations to the state (unless you're proposing some sort of communist/socialist system).

[Kori Ellis]

I have my MBA and I'm a writer who works from home. When we have kids, I'll be a stay at home mom who just writes sometimes.

And Bonfire, I don't see how it's any of your business or anyone else's what I do with my degree.

I too considered going to law school just for the hell of it with no intent on ever practicing law. It's not my obligation, moral or otherwise to give back to society as you see fit.

[Peter]

I never said that the degrees I was speaking of were in the humanities. I'm talking: organic chemistry & mechanical engineering (one of which was a PE). All at a particular state university in College Station, which would kind of like to see that $$$ come back at the very least in the form of some private application or teaching.

Then perhaps the individual takes some time off and then comes back. It's not like women are the only ones who will leave a given occupation for a time and then come back.

[SWC Bonfire]

The Eleventh Texas Legislature approved a joint resolution on November 1, 1866, accepting the terms of the federal government's Morrill Land-Grant College Act of July 2, 1862, which provided for the donation of public lands in a quantity equal to 30,000 acres for each senator and representative in Congress to a state for the establishment of at least one college "where the leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactics, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts."

That doesn't say "act like a day care for young adults of either gender".

[MannyIsGod]

I have my MBA and I'm a writer who works from home. When we have kids, I'll be a stay at home mom who just writes sometimes.

And Bonfire, I don't see how it's any of your business or anyone else's what I do with my degree.

I too considered going to law school just for the hell of it with no intent on ever practicing law. It's not my obligation, moral or otherwise to give back to society as you see fit.
I was just telling Jess about you and your MBA. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

That doesn't say "act like a day care for young adults of either gender".
You're so off base in this thread. You're all over the place and you're grasping at straws to make some kind of point that keeps changing.

One of the freedoms we have in this country is to better ourselves by going to school for the sake of nothing other than learning. You made it seem as though thats all women were doing with no basis other than your extremely small sample size based on perception. I don't know if you took a statistics class anywhere along the way, but the information one gathers from such a course might come in handy just a bit here.

[Kori Ellis]

I originally went to UCLA on an Engineering scholarship. Damn, I'm glad I decided to switch sides and major in "the arts" or else SWCBonfire would really think I was a loser right now. :rolleyes. Damn all the women out their getting degrees and not using them properly.

[Peter]

What about the PhD in mechanical engineering who leaves that field to go into property development or just to kick back and collect checks from his rental properties and spend time with his family/goof off? Is he given a pass while the woman with the same educational/professional profile opts to stay at home and raise her children has to pay back the state?

[xrayzebra]

I originally went to UCLA on an Engineering scholarship. Damn, I'm glad I decided to switch sides and major in "the arts" or else SWCBonfire would really think I was a loser right now. :rolleyes. Damn all the women out their getting degrees and not using them properly.

Kori, I love the fact women are getting degrees, have three daughters,
all with degrees and six Granddaughters and two Grandsons, so far,
all three of my Girls have degrees, two of my Granddaughters have degrees
and one Grandson. One Granddaughter is still working on her's. All of them
are doing what they got their degrees in. Yeah, I'm bragging. Opps, forgot
one of my Grandsons has a associate degree, he isn't working in his field.
He is in the Air Force.

[MannyIsGod]

Kori, I love the fact women are getting degrees, have three daughters,
all with degrees and six Granddaughters and two Grandsons, so far,
all three of my Girls have degrees, two of my Granddaughters have degrees
and one Grandson. One Granddaughter is still working on her's. All of them
are doing what they got their degrees in. Yeah, I'm bragging. Opps, forgot
one of my Grandsons has a associate degree, he isn't working in his field.
He is in the Air Force.
Thats definetly something to brag about. You should get that all put on a Tshirt. :lol

[SpursWoman]

Damn all the women out their getting degrees and not using them properly.


So, can I be just that much more self-righteous that am currently in, and doing extremely well in, the exact profession for which I obtained my degree?

:rolleyes :lol

[iminlakerland]

I'm just going to get a degree in business cuz it will sound cool saying i got a degree, i really just want to stay home and do laundry and wash dishes.

[easjer]

So if I work while my husband stays home with the kids, am I wasting my degree since I'm not working as a historian/curator/teacher? Oh right, foolish question. I'm sure it would be wrong, progressive and feminist of me to work while my husband stays home.

When did I become the crazy liberal?

Education is what you make of it and at it's best if for personal enrichment. The diploma mills churning out graduates who cannot identify a thesis, let alone make a structured argument will always fall behind someone who can make a coherent statement, regardless of education.

And lord knows it's not like bachelor's degrees actually get you anywhere these days.

And state schools don't have all that much money to pay for graduate educations. So I'm sure these women that are being talked of paid something towards their education or worked for the school during their education. Something it would behoove colleges or educational instituations to remember is that they are supposed to be in the business of educating students, not money-making.

[xrayzebra]

Thats definetly something to brag about. You should get that all put on a Tshirt. :lol

Yeah, Manny, maybe I should. But the kids all know I am proud of them. And maybe I shouldn't post it on the forum. But I did. Don't know why
you would make fun of the fact some people are proud of their kids and
grandkids. But you are MannyisGod. And guess it bothers you. So be it.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So if I major in chemical engineering at A&M they will pay for my entire tuition and room and board and living expenses only with the requirement that I get a job that puts my degree to use and/or teach?????

[Samr]

Edumacation?

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, Manny, maybe I should. But the kids all know I am proud of them. And maybe I shouldn't post it on the forum. But I did. Don't know why
you would make fun of the fact some people are proud of their kids and
grandkids. But you are MannyisGod. And guess it bothers you. So be it.
I was being completely serious! That is somethign to be very proud of! I wasn't joking in any way!

[Mixability]

I choose to enter the workforce after high school. I've held down several jobs due to my fascination that all requried degrees to hold. That shows you how valuable those 4 year degress are now. I held jobs with fortune 500 companies that required a 4 year degree in marketing simply because I displayed an ability to do things college graduates couldn't do and a better understanding of what was to be their core material.

I'm in the same boat now! I supervise about 10 people, most of whom have 4 year degrees from UT or Southwest or wherever. I feel kinda bad sometimes when I boss them around, since I only went to St. Philips for a couple of months. :lol :angel

[SA Gunslinger]

Corporate Knowledge, in some jobs, is more important than a degree.

[xrayzebra]

I was being completely serious! That is somethign to be very proud of! I wasn't joking in any way!

Please accept my apology then. I misinterpreted your post.

[MannyIsGod]

Please accept my apology then. I misinterpreted your post.
:lol

Man, If I spawn that many people who are making something of themselves, I'd put it on a tshirt! The apples really don't fall far from the tree.

[Kdfelicity]

UPDATE: My World Civ final was some hard ass shit. I hope I pulled off that B I was gunning for.

How'd your little Govt test go Josh?


Now it's off to the Racism class final for me... :rolleyes

[SpursWoman]

Racism class final? :wtf


I'm afraid to ask.... :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

Racism class final? :wtf


I'm afraid to ask.... :lol

I took that class in law school; pulled an A. Same with Gender Discrimination.

I covered all the bases. . . . .

[SpursWoman]

So there is actually a class about racism? I thought it might be in reference to something else. :oops :lol

[Kdfelicity]

So there is actually a class about racism? I thought it might be in reference to something else. :oops :lol


Yea it is ridiculous. If you're white and don't admit that you're a racist, you don't pass.

So the whole time they try to convince you that all whites are racists, they only end up showing that they're all racist.

So everyone's racist! Nooo, really? :rolleyes :rolleyes

You could be discriminatory about bread and then you're racist towards bread.

[Horry For 3!]

Yea it is ridiculous. If you're white and don't admit that you're a racist, you don't pass.

So the whole time they try to convince you that all whites are racists, they only end up showing that they're all racist.
:lmao

[Horry For 3!]

UPDATE: My World Civ final was some hard ass shit. I hope I pulled off that B I was gunning for.

How'd your little Govt test go Josh?


Now it's off to the Racism class final for me... :rolleyes
I don't know, I think I did alright. I remembered a lot of answers but some of the questions had answers where it could be both but you had to choose one from some specific word. So that was kinda hard.

[Kdfelicity]

I don't know, I think I did alright. I remembered a lot of answers but some of the questions had answers where it could be both but you had to choose one from some specific word. So that was kinda hard.

Don't you hate that?

If the answer is supposed to have 2 parts to it, they need to put them in the same freakin answer choice!

[Horry For 3!]

Don't you hate that?

If the answer is supposed to have 2 parts to it, they need to put them in the same freakin answer choice!
Yeah, they always have to make some really specific. Oh well.

[Samr]

Today I took my two mid-terms. Studied for the first one (English) an hour in the morning, and studied for stats about 45 minutes after lunch. I think I did pretty well.

Yeah, BIG fan of the morning-of method.

[SpursWoman]

Yea it is ridiculous. If you're white and don't admit that you're a racist, you don't pass.

So the whole time they try to convince you that all whites are racists, they only end up showing that they're all racist.

So everyone's racist! Nooo, really? :rolleyes :rolleyes

You could be discriminatory about bread and then you're racist towards bread.

That's awful ... I think I'd be a little too opinionated for that class. That's probably the most offensive thing I've ever been (very wrongly) accused of. :cuss :lol

[Samr]

I am in no way racist, but I am dangerously politically incorrect. I still maintain there is a difference.

[SpursWoman]

I agree. :lol

[Jekka]

So there is actually a class about racism? I thought it might be in reference to something else. :oops :lol

My support work for my major was classified as "Racial and Religious History of the Americas" by my faculty advisor. I've never had the option to take a class explicitly on racism, but with as many as I've taken on Latin American history it's come up a whole lot.

[Horry For 3!]

I must of got an A on my final because I just checked my grades and I passed Government :elephant

1 more semester left and i'm off to Texas State :)

[tlongII]

I must of got an A on my final because I just checked my grades and I passed Government :elephant

1 more semester left and i'm off to Texas State :)

Where is Texas State located?

[Horry For 3!]

Where is Texas State located?
San Marcos, 30 mins from Austin.