Argentina will be ready for World Cup, says Pekerman

[ducks]

Argentina will be ready for World Cup, says Pekerman
Argentina will be ready for World Cup, says Pekerman

BUENOS AIRES, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Argentina are aware of the strengths of their World Cup Group C rivals but will be ready to have a good tournament, coach Jose Pekerman said.

Pekerman's seeded team were drawn in one of the toughest groups with the Netherlands, Serbia & Montenegro and Ivory Coast for the June 9-July 9 tournament in Germany.

"The team will be in good shape when they get to the World Cup. We have a very good team and I'm sure we'll have a great World Cup," Pekerman told the Argentine news agency Telam in an interview published on Tuesday.

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"You have to go to the World Cup in your best form. We Argentines are affected by our elimination in the first round of Korea-Japan," he said referring to the 2002 tournament.

Pekerman implied that talk about how tough Argentina's group rivals are has been based largely on their poor tournament four years ago in an even tougher group with England, Sweden and Nigeria and their erratic form in the last six months.

"But if the team were okay (now), like for example in the first half at home against Brazil, we wouldn't even worry today about our rivals," he said. Argentina beat Brazil 3-1 in Buenos Aires in June to clinch an early World Cup berth.

"Brazil are the best team at the moment, for the way they play. I like their players, their ideas, their football...and England are getting there with greater aspirations than 2002. Position by position, they are complete and will do very well."

Pekerman is leaving himself with little further preparation, however, saying: "There are six months left for the World Cup but we're only going to play one (warm-up) friendly, maybe against Croatia.

"In other words, the state in which the players get there will depend on what they do with their clubs."

He said he had never called up Juan Sebastian Veron of Inter Milan, Argentina's captain in 2002 when he was a Manchester United player, because "up to now there is a squad that has responded (to my wishes)."

[ShoogarBear]

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Sorry, I haven't been able to read anything past "Pekerman".

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Extra Stout]

I thought this was the Spurs forum, not El Foro del Mundial.

[Trainwreck2100]

Won't go anywhere forum

[kolko]

wrong forum

[manubili]

Ginobili and Nalbandian should play in our soccer team. Maybe then.... :drunk

[smeagol]

ducks follows soccer?

[Phenomanul]

Why does the Argentianian national team discriminate against Argentinian players who play in Mexico???

The only one on the squad is el "Chelo" Delgado...

Bruno Marioni is pretty good
So is Walter Gaitan...

Do they only have "eyes" for players that play in Europe????

[smeagol]

Why does the Argentianian national team discriminate against Argentinian players who play in Mexico???

The only one on the squad is el "Chelo" Delgado...

Bruno Marioni is pretty good
So is Walter Gaitan...

Do they only have "eyes" for players that play in Europe????
The better playrs are playing in Europe. That's the only reason.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Why does the Argentianian national team discriminate against Argentinian players who play in Mexico???

The only one on the squad is el "Chelo" Delgado...

Bruno Marioni is pretty good
So is Walter Gaitan...

Do they only have "eyes" for players that play in Europe????

Marioni is crap, Gaitan is a decent player but he doesn't have enough quality to play in the national team. They never were stars here, and they failed to impress in their short spells in the European leagues. Where would Gaitan fit into a squad with Riquelme, Messi, Aimar, D'Alessandro, Luis Gonzalez, etc? Same could be said for Marioni: Crespo, Saviola, Tevez, Cruz, Diego Milito, Lisandro Lopez, etc., they are all better players.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

@ducks: You did notice that this article is about the soccer World Cup, now did you?

[CavsSuperFan]

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/pics/75gupdate2.jpg

Thank you Ducks...In other news...Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead ...

[ShoogarBear]

I don't follow soccer at all, but I distinctly remember we've already had a Mexico vs. Argentina scrap on this board before . . .

[ducks]

I posted this for the Argentina spur fans ........................

[Phenomanul]

Marioni is crap, Gaitan is a decent player but he doesn't have enough quality to play in the national team. They never were stars here, and they failed to impress in their short spells in the European leagues. Where would Gaitan fit into a squad with Riquelme, Messi, Aimar, D'Alessandro, Luis Gonzalez, etc? Same could be said for Marioni: Crespo, Saviola, Tevez, Cruz, Diego Milito, Lisandro Lopez, etc., they are all better players.


And yet a Marioni led attack sent PUMAS to the Final of the Nissan Cup (over Velez I should add)?

Of the players you mentioned who are better than Gaitan, only one has a better 'touch' with their left foot. They didn't give him the apodo of "El Divino" for nothing.

With regards to smeagol's comment;
I think that is part of the problem, the European leagues are percieved to be immensely superior to the clubs in this hemisphere, and yet teams from this side of the world have gotten the best of european clubs in the few "World Club Championships" that have been held.

Even Necaxa of Mexico which hasn't been very strong since the mid-90's ended up ahead of Real Madrid in one of those tournaments.

Foreign players in Mexico get paid well and get more guaranteed playing time cause Mexican team rosters only have like 22-24 slots. European rosters, on the other hand, sometimes carry as many as 45 players!!!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And yet a Marioni led attack sent PUMAS to the Final of the Nissan Cup (over Velez I should add)?

Of the players you mentioned who are better than Gaitan, only one has a better 'touch' with their left foot. They didn't give him the apodo of "El Divino" for nothing.

With regards to smeagol's comment;
I think that is part of the problem, the European leagues are percieved to be immensely superior to the clubs in this hemisphere, and yet teams from this side of the world have gotten the best of european clubs in the few "World Club Championships" that have been held.

Even Necaxa of Mexico which hasn't been very strong since the mid-90's ended up ahead of Real Madrid in one of those tournaments.

Foreign players in Mexico get paid well and get more guaranteed playing time cause Mexican team rosters only have like 22-24 slots. European rosters, on the other hand, sometimes carry as many as 45 players!!!
You're seriously comparing the Mexican league with the likes of the Spanish, Italian or the English? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's funny

[Phenomanul]

You're seriously comparing the Mexican league with the likes of the Spanish, Italian or the English? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's funny


Read between the lines....

[Phenomanul]

You are laughing at your own countrymen... nice sig BTW..

[Phenomanul]

Boca Jrs, Velez Sarsfield, River Plate, Corinthians are all better teams currently than about 15 teams in the Spanish league, about 15 teams in the Premier League, better than most of the teams in the Bundesliga, better than about 3/4 of the teams in the Italian League....

You can't just say that becuase someone plays in Europe they are better. That is the blanket statement I was debating.... Certain teams in Mexico can go 'tu por tu' with teams in Europe as well.

Top to bottom Euroleagues are better yes...

But to say that the better teams from this hemisphere don't belong in the same sentence as the Euro clubs.... now that is laughable. They have proven they belong with the cream of the crop European clubs in FIFA's World Club Championship tournaments...

[Spurologist]

Brazil has soo much talent that their top 5 player in the world talent will be on the bench

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Look, it is common knowledge that the "big leagues" are not here in America. Its not always how much you get paid. Face it, playing for say Cruz Azul is not the same as playing for FC Barcelona or Real Madrid, no matter how much you would like that to be the case. The point is in soccer if you are great you go to europe, and anyone who tells you otherwise is copping out.

Besides, no offense but I wouldn't put Mexico's league at the same level as Brasil's or Argentina's, however, that's my opinion.

[Phenomanul]

Look, it is common knowledge that the "big leagues" are not here in America. Its not always how much you get paid. Face it, playing for say Cruz Azul is not the same as playing for FC Barcelona or Real Madrid, no matter how much you would like that to be the case. The point is in soccer if you are great you go to europe, and anyone who tells you otherwise is copping out.

Besides, no offense but I wouldn't put Mexico's league at the same level as Brasil's or Argentina's, however, that's my opinion.

Historically no... but I never stated that to be a fact.... If you look at the trend of the lastest Libertadores Cups and this latest Nissan Cup... two Mexican squads have crept into the top 8 slots 4 times and at least 1 has reached the semi-finals 3 times. This is the second time a Mexican club has reached the Finals since they started getting invites back in 1999. To suggest that they have no talent is also rather naive.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I already answered to you why. They had their chance when they played in the Argentinian League, and they weren't something spectacular to deserve a call-up to the national team. Gaitán played in Boca and Marioni in Independiente and their performances weren't enough to deserve a spot in the Argentinian team: Gaitán was released by Boca after a while, and Marioni was sold to a relegation battler team in Spain. When they played in Europe (Gaitán in Villareal, Marioni in Tenerife) they didn't exactly set the Spanish League on fire.

Now they are playing in a League that is of lesser quality than Argentina, and can't be even compared to the Spanish, so they won't be called up. The truth is that most Argentinians that move to Mexico aren't stars here, they are just good role players and nothing else, with the only possible exception of Cesar Delgado, but he isn't a fixture in the Argentina National Team either.


Boca Jrs, Velez Sarsfield, River Plate, Corinthians are all better teams currently than about 15 teams in the Spanish league, about 15 teams in the Premier League, better than most of the teams in the Bundesliga, better than about 3/4 of the teams in the Italian League....

You can't just say that becuase someone plays in Europe they are better. That is the blanket statement I was debating.... Certain teams in Mexico can go 'tu por tu' with teams in Europe as well.

Top to bottom Euroleagues are better yes...

But to say that the better teams from this hemisphere don't belong in the same sentence as the Euro clubs.... now that is laughable. They have proven they belong witht the cream of the crop in FIFA's World Club Championships...

Still, the better Argentinian and Brazilian players are scattered in European teams. Both countries are exporters, they constantly sell players to the top European leagues, and always produce new talent to replace those who were sold. If you had to make a list out of Argentinian fowards, Marioni would hardly make it into the Top 20 (only based on current form), and that's for four or five spots for the World Cup squad. Gaitán may have a sweet touch and be called "El Divino" in Mexico, but he is nowhere near Riquelme, Aimar or Messi. He could fight for a spot with D'Alessandro or Veron, but only based on the poor form of those two, if they gain back their form, Gaitan has nothing to do near the National Team.

FIFA World Club Championships you say? Then why the hell is Costa Rica's Deportivo Saprissa getting their asses beaten by Liverpool if the Mexican teams are better? Brazilian and Argentinian teams have beaten European clubs before, so I credit them.

By the way, the South American Cup stinks, so far it's a tournament made only for money without any prestige (many teams qualify based on how good their TV ratings are, not how good on the pitch they were last season). The only real prestigious competittion is the Libertadores.

[smeagol]

Many South American teams have won the Toyota Cup in Japan, beating their European counterparts. That being said, European teams are better, you cannot argue that. They have the better talent. Its like saying the Euro League B-ball teams are better than the NBA teams.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Many South American teams have won the Toyota Cup in Japan, beating their European counterparts. That being said, European teams are better, you cannot argue that. They have the better talent. Its like saying the Euro League B-ball teams are better than the NBA teams.

Exactly, the best South American players play in Europe, with very few exceptions that will move to Europe soon (Tevez, Mascherano, Gago, Palacio, Aguero, Cicinho).

[Phenomanul]

I already answered to you why. They had their chance when they played in the Argentinian League, and they weren't something spectacular to deserve a call-up to the national team. Gaitán played in Boca and Marioni in Independiente and their performances weren't enough to deserve a spot in the Argentinian team: Gaitán was released by Boca after a while, and Marioni was sold to a relegation battler team in Spain. When they played in Europe (Gaitán in Villareal, Marioni in Tenerife) they didn't exactly set the Spanish League on fire.

Now they are playing in a League that is of lesser quality than Argentina, and can't be even compared to the Spanish, so they won't be called up. The truth is that most Argentinians that move to Mexico aren't stars here, they are just good role players and nothing else, with the only possible exception of Cesar Delgado, but he isn't a fixture in the Argentina National Team either.



Still, the better Argentinian and Brazilian players are scattered in European teams. Both countries are exporters, they constantly sell players to the top European leagues, and always produce new talent to replace those who were sold. If you had to make a list out of Argentinian fowards, Marioni would hardly make it into the Top 20 (only based on current form), and that's for four or five spots for the World Cup squad. Gaitán may have a sweet touch and be called "El Divino" in Mexico, but he is nowhere near Riquelme, Aimar or Messi. He could fight for a spot with D'Alessandro or Veron, but only based on the poor form of those two, if they gain back their form, Gaitan has nothing to do near the National Team.

FIFA World Club Championships you say? Then why the hell is Costa Rica's Deportivo Saprissa getting their asses beaten by Liverpool if the Mexican teams are better? Brazilian and Argentinian teams have beaten European clubs before, so I credit them.

By the way, the South American Cup stinks, so far it's a tournament made only for money without any prestige (many teams qualify based on how good their TV ratings are, not how good on the pitch they were last season). The only real prestigious competittion is the Libertadores.


Good points....

Saprissa is playing because the U.S. Referee tandem that called the game against Pumas allowed two blatant... not one... offsides goals as legitimate scores.....

Pumas beat both Real Madrid and FC Barcelona in Spain two years ago.... and the Spanish clubs were fielding their "A" Squads..... hmmm. Yeah... "Mexican clubs can never beat elite European clubs" is not an accurate statement either...

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Historically no... but I never stated that to be a fact.... If you look at the trend of the lastest Libertadores Cups and this latest Nissan Cup... two Mexican squads have crept into the top 8 slots 4 times and at least 1 has reached the semi-finals 3 times. This is the second time a Mexican club has reached the Finals since they started getting invites back in 1999. To suggest that they have no talent is also rather naive.

Talent does not equal trophies. Until Mexico gets some real silverware, that's all they are, a good team. Would you call the TWolves, Kings, Suns or Pacers a powerhouse in the NBA? They had a couple of good years without any trophies, and then faded into obscurity again.


Good points....

Saprissa is playing because the U.S. Referee tandem that called the game against Pumas allowed two blatant... not one... offsides goals as legitimate scores.....

Pumas beat both Real Madrid and FC Barcelona in Spain two years ago.... and the Spanish clubs were fielding their "A" Squads..... hmmm. Yeah... "Mexican clubs can never beat elite European clubs" is not an accurate statement either...

In friendlies. Barcelona and Real Madrid lost and drew against Japanese clubs three years ago in preseasons friendlies. Did that make the Japanese League and National Team world beaters?

[Phenomanul]

Also, you asume that players that transfer from the Argentinian leagues to Mexico aren't developing or getting better.... that they remain stagnant...

It's like the Trailblazers saying "we'll trade Jermaine O'Neal to the Pacers cause he hasn't shown much of anything playing behind Rasheed...." Yeah, bad decision... Smart players develop and add things to their game. Jermaine busted out simply because he was getting playing time...

Anyways...

[Phenomanul]

Talent does not equal trophies. Until Mexico gets some real silverware, that's all they are, a good team. Would you call the TWolves, Kings, Suns or Pacers a powerhouse in the NBA? They had a couple of good years without any trophies, and then faded into obscurity again.



In friendlies. Barcelona and Real Madrid lost and drew against Japanese clubs three years ago in preseasons friendlies. Did that make the Japanese League and National Team world beaters?

I also stated that Necaxa placed 3rd and above Real Madrid in the first Edition of the World Club Championships....

And I'm talking clubs here... strictly clubs... the whole "Japanese being National Team world beaters..." was way off-base from anything I said....

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Also, you asume that players that transfer from the Argentinian leagues to Mexico aren't developing or getting better.... that they remain stagnant...

It's like the Trailblazers saying "we'll trade Jermaine O'Neal to the Pacers cause he hasn't shown much of anything playing behind Rasheed...." Yeah, bad decision... Smart players develop and add things to their game. Jermaine busted out simply because he was getting playing time...

Anyways...

But you are comparing different levels of opposition and leagues, this would be like the Blazers saying "let's trade Jermaine O'Neal to some Spanish/Italian/Israeli team".

But before we get into a mess, let's stop comparing different sports.

The most simple explanation is: There are many better Argentinian players than Gaitán, Marioni or Franco (before he decided to play for Mexico), and that's why they weren't called up for the National Team.

[smeagol]

Put in layman's terms


The most simple explanation is: There are many better Argentinian players than Gaitán, Marioni or Franco (before he decided to play for Mexico), and that's why they weren't called up for the National Team.

[Phenomanul]

But you are comparing different levels of opposition and leagues, this would be like the Blazers saying "let's trade Jermaine O'Neal to some Spanish/Italian/Israeli team".

But before we get into a mess, let's stop comparing different sports.

The most simple explanation is: There are many better Argentinian players than Gaitán, Marioni or Franco (before he decided to play for Mexico), and that's why they weren't called up for the National Team.


Fair enough... I'm simply trying to point out the fact Argentina choses not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit (which happens to pay better salaries than that offered by most Argentinean clubs).

Most Argentineans would be apalled by that notion... and that is why it rarely happens. Comparable talent aside, I believe that 'discrimination' to be one of the underlying reasons for said trend.

[smeagol]

Fair enough... I'm simply trying to point out the fact Argentina choses not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit (which happens to pay better salaries than that offered by most Argentinean clubs).

Most Argentineans would be apalled by that notion... and that is why it rarely happens. Comparable talent aside, I believe that 'discrimination' to be one of the underlying reasons for said trend.
BS.

C'mon Hector, you know better than that.

They don't chose Argentine players playing in the Mexican league because there are better Argie players playing elsewhere.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Fair enough... I'm simply trying to point out the fact Argentina choses not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit (which happens to pay better salaries than that offered by most Argentinean clubs).

Most Argentineans would be apalled by that notion... and that is why it rarely happens. Comparable talent aside, I believe that 'discrimination' to be one of the underlying reasons for said trend.

You are making an issue where there is none. Argentinian common people couldn't care less about the Mexican league, and not because they don't like it, people simply don't watch it. Most of the people don't even think about the Mexicans as rivals, in fact, there is more bitter rivalry with Brazil, Chile and Colombia. That's not really an issue, if so, then Tevez and Mascherano wouldn't be called because they are playing in Brazil. Simply put it this way: the Argentinians that move to the Mexican league aren't the better players, if so, then a Mexican team would be buying Aguero or Palacio for €20 million in the next Northern Hemisphere summer.

"not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit "

Very few players playing in Argentina are called up to the team. In fact, only Abbondanzieri, the goalie, is the only regular face in Pekerman's call ups who isn't playing in Europe.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Fair enough... I'm simply trying to point out the fact Argentina choses not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit (which happens to pay better salaries than that offered by most Argentinean clubs).

Most Argentineans would be apalled by that notion... and that is why it rarely happens. Comparable talent aside, I believe that 'discrimination' to be one of the underlying reasons for said trend. it seems to me you're more eager to have the MeXican League regarded as legit than the Argies are of making any concession about it. The Mexican league will be regarded as legit when it actually accomplishes something. Look the reason why those Argentinians in the Mexican league aren't chosen is because they are simply not good enough, if you are desperate in need of another explanation, then that's your issue.

[Phenomanul]

BS.

C'mon Hector, you know better than that.

They don't chose Argentine players playing in the Mexican league because there are better Argie players playing elsewhere.


Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....

Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...

What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

By the same token, when Boca's fans started throwing things at Guadalajara's Chivas and started luring Adolfo Bautista into fighting... I didn't see that committee levy any fines or suspensions against the poster child organization of your Federation. Now that was B.S.

How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....

Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...

What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

By the same token, when Boca's fans started throwing things at Guadalajara's Chivas and started luring Adolfo Bautista into fighting... I didn't see that committee levy any fines or suspensions against the poster child organization of your Federation. Now that was B.S.

How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol... right, because we should choose our players for our national team so as to appease your need to feel important? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Give me a break!

[Phenomanul]

it seems to me you're more eager to have the MeXican League regarded as legit than the Argies are of making any concession about it. The Mexican league will be regarded as legit when it actually accomplishes something. Look the reason why those Argentinians in the Mexican league aren't chosen is because they are simply not good enough, if you are desperate in need of another explanation, then that's your issue.


It will in time... once the FMF (Federación Mexicana de Fútbol) starts making better decisions that promote the development of young Mexican players as opposed to seeking money for their own pockets....

Some of that is already changing... the results... Mexico's first U-17 World Championship....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....

Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...

What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

By the same token, when Boca's fans started throwing things at Guadalajara's Chivas and started luring Adolfo Bautista into fighting... I didn't see that committee levy any fines or suspensions against the poster child organization of your Federation. Now that was B.S.

How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol...
oh and by the way, Boca's coach was fired if you didn't notice, so what the fuck are you talking about?

[Phenomanul]

right, because we should choose our players for our national team so as to appease your need to feel important? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Give me a break!


Read a little more before you respond in that fashion..... please.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Read a little more before you respond in that fashion..... please.
I read everything you posted and I think its bullshit. Satisfied?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Look, face it, there is no great conspiracy against Mexicans or their league. The Argentinian players over there are simply not the best we have, now deal with it or STFU

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....

Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...

What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

By the same token, when Boca's fans started throwing things at Guadalajara's Chivas and started luring Adolfo Bautista into fighting... I didn't see that committee levy any fines or suspensions against the poster child organization of your Federation. Now that was B.S.

How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol...


Your points are slipping mate...


You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...

Some may do, but I don't see what other "races" are you talking about...what's the difference between an Argentinian and a Chilean? or what's the difference with a Costa Rican?


Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....

Like who? If Pekerman has to make a choice, who would he select? Rodrigo Palacio or Bruno Marioni? 99% of coaches would chose Palacio.


What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

Blanco did that against a Brazilian team, Boca wasn't involved at all in that.


How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol..

Ok, someone has to say it: this is bullshit. Who wrote something against Delgado? Who suggested that a local player should be selected? The voices that talk about local players being selected, do it even before big names in Europe (they say Palacio, Bilos or Aguero should be called instead of Crespo or Saviola).

I'm sorry, but you are losing it. With the amount of pressure to get results that it means to be the Argentinian National Coach, Pekerman can't leave better players out of his call ups because "they play in Mexico". He has some more important things to think about, like winning every game because the fans will ask him to quit if he fails to.

[Phenomanul]

oh and by the way, Boca's coach was fired if you didn't notice, so what the fuck are you talking about?

Yeah, but how did that hurt Boca... they hired Basile... the sanctions imposed on Blanco and on Azteca stadium were intended to keep Club América from winning a CONMEBOL tournament....

And what Boca's fans did was 10 times worse than what happened at Azteca Stadium...

Understand first and then launch your counter-arguments.... your response only showed a lack of comprehension on the problem that I was exposing....

Anyways I hate it when things get personal so we'll just agree to disagree.... :hat

[Phenomanul]

Your points are slipping mate...



Some may do, but I don't see what other "races" are you talking about...what's the difference between an Argentinian and a Chilean? or what's the difference with a Costa Rican?

Many Argentineans consider themselves "white" and consider the Chileans, the Costa Ricans, Ecuatorianos, Colombians, Mexicans... as Indians.... Don't be naive that that is not the case.... It is not the rule, but it is definitely not the exception.




Like who? If Pekerman has to make a choice, who would he select? Rodrigo Palacio or Bruno Marioni? 99% of coaches would chose Palacio.



Blanco did that against a Brazilian team, Boca wasn't involved at all in that.



Ok, someone has to say it: this is bullshit. Who wrote something against Delgado? Who suggested that a local player should be selected? The voices that talk about local players being selected, do it even before big names in Europe (they say Palacio, Bilos or Aguero should be called instead of Crespo or Saviola).

I'm sorry, but you are losing it. With the amount of pressure to get results that it means to be the Argentinian National Coach, Pekerman can't leave better players out of his call ups because "they play in Mexico". He has some more important things to think about, like winning every game because the fans will ask him to quit if he fails to.

You're correct about it being against a brazillian squad... same difference, the sanctions were imposed by CONMEBOL.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yeah, but how did that hurt Boca... they hired Basile... the sanctions imposed on Blanco and on Azteca stadium were intended to keep America from winning a CONMEBOL tournament....

And what Boca's fans did was 10 times worse than what happened at Azteca Stadium...

Understand first and then launch your counter-arguments.... your response only showed a lack of comprehension on the problem that I was exposing....

Anyways I hate it when things get personal so we'll just agree to disagree.... :hat
no, the point is you're trying to imply that us Argentinians have a problem with Mexicans and that is why we don't choose players from there, which is ofcourse bullshit. The fact is those players are not good enough, and thats why they are playing over in Mexico instead of playing in Europe. There is no conspiracy, no plan to "put down" the Mexican people. Mexican futbol is imply not good enough, get it? got it? good

[Phenomanul]

no, the point is you're trying to imply that us Argentinians have a problem with Mexicans and that is why we don't choose players from there, which is ofcourse bullshit. The fact is those players are not good enough, and thats why they are playing over in Mexico instead of playing in Europe. There is no conspiracy, no plan to "put down" the Mexican people. Mexican futbol is imply not good enough, get it? got it? good

We'll see Sunday... of course if Pumas wins... You all will start throwing the history....

Anyways I'm not saying all Argentineans are aware of this or behave this way....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Many Argentineans consider themselves "white" and consider the Chileans, the Costa Ricans, Ecuatorianos, Colombians, Mexicans... as Indians.... Don't be naive that that is not the case.... It is not the rule, but it is definitely not the exception.




You're correct about it being against a brazillian squad... same difference, the sanctions were imposed by CONMEBOL.
I love it, a Mexican telling us how our society works http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Ever lived over here princess? 'cause if you haven't I don't see how you're qualified to make an assesment as to how our culture thinks and what is the rule or the exception.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I don't think we are better than Mexicans, just that we are better at soccer than Mexicans, and that is a fact baby, just as it is a fact that Americans are better at basketball than most. If you can't handle that, then thats your problem.

[Phenomanul]

I love it, a Mexican telling us how our society works http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Ever lived over here princess? 'cause if you haven't I don't see how you're qualified to make an assesment as to how our culture thinks and what is the rule or the exception.


Don't be assinine... that is a general phrase.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Don't be assinine... that is a general phrase. well that general phrase comes with a meaning, unless ofcourse you just said it to fill up space

by the asinine with one s

[Phenomanul]

I love it, a Mexican telling us how our society works http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Ever lived over here princess? 'cause if you haven't I don't see how you're qualified to make an assesment as to how our culture thinks and what is the rule or the exception.


And I dealt with many Argentineans at school who, without failure, acted as the former...

[Phenomanul]

well that general phrase comes with a meaning, unless ofcourse you just said it to fill up space

LEARN to READ....

IT means there are exceptions... But I have personally encountered many Argentineans who fit the description of the former....

Unless the 80 or so people I have met which acted this way were kicked out of your country for racism... then I have no basis for my theory.. They simply all felt that way about people of hispanic-american descent...

Oh yeah, and from the time my dad went to Buenos Aires and many 'random' people called him 'negro' in a derrogatory tone.... I wonder what they would call people of African descent?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And I dealt with many Argentineans at school who, without failure, acted as the former...
I see, so your VERY limited experience with a few Argentinians qualifies you to make an assesment as to what is rule or exception in our culture? Look, obviously this is getting out of hand, all I'm saying is try not to make ignorant (not meant to insult, but rather because it was made out of lack of knowledge) statements like that in the future, please.

Getting back to the issue. Look, regardless of what you think, we are not as stupid as to risk a chance at the World Cup just to spite you Mexicans. Like Manu'sMagicalLeftHand told you, those players are simply not the best we have got, and that is why Pekerman has not chosen them.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

And I dealt with many Argentineans at school who, without failure, acted as the former...

Well, if that's the case, I could say that all I've read from Mexicans is nothing but an attempt to prove themselves superior to everyone else. "Mexico this, Mexico that, bla bla bla", however, when you meet them, not all are the arrogant nationalistic fuckers they seem to be.

[Phenomanul]

Why do you think Manu is my Favorite Argentinean.... he is completely humble about his abilities and completely genuine. Even my dad was surprised...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

LEARN to READ....

IT means there are exceptions... But I have personally encountered many Argentineans who fit the description of the former....

Unless the 80 or so people I have met which acted this way were kicked out of your country for racism... then I have no basis for my theory.. They simply all felt that way about people of hispanic-american descent...

Oh yeah, and from the time my dad went to Buenos Aires and many 'random' people called him 'negro' in a derrogatory tone.... I wonder what they would call people of African descent?
Look I don't know who the hell your dad got mixed up with but people over here are generally courtious. i'm talking about educated people ofcourse. Obviously you don't know jack shit about us Argentinians so please save us the ranting

[Phenomanul]

Well, if that's the case, I could say that all I've read from Mexicans is nothing but an attempt to prove themselves superior to everyone else. "Mexico this, Mexico that, bla bla bla", however, when you meet them, not all are the arrogant nationalistic fuckers they seem to be.


I don't consider myself a 'nationalistic Mexican' in fact I can criticize the country on many fronts.... not that it will change anything....

[Phenomanul]

Look I don't know who the hell your dad got mixed up with but people over here are generally courtious. i'm talking about educated people ofcourse. Obviously you don't know jack shit about us Argentinians so please save us the ranting


Last I read you threw the first punch.... I don't think I have ever used the "STFU" clause anywhere.... You realize how personal that gets...

From what I've read it seems to be one of your personal favorites....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

LEARN to READ....

IT means there are exceptions... But I have personally encountered many Argentineans who fit the description of the former....

Unless the 80 or so people I have met which acted this way were kicked out of your country for racism... then I have no basis for my theory.. They simply all felt that way about people of hispanic-american descent...

Oh yeah, and from the time my dad went to Buenos Aires and many 'random' people called him 'negro' in a derrogatory tone.... I wonder what they would call people of African descent?
this is hilarious, seriously! Some fucker calls your dad "negro" and all of the sudden we're all racist and egomaniacs. Give me a fucking break! By that logic all Americans are racist fuckers too, since they have their share of racism.

[Phenomanul]

Maybe when I can raise enough money to visit Argentina.... you can show me around and show me just how wrong my perceptions of Argentineans have been....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Last I read you threw the first punch.... I don't think I have ever used the "STFU" clause anywhere.... You realize how personal that gets...

From what I've read it seems to be one of your personal favorites....
well I'm sorry but you implying that us Argentinians think we're better than everyone else ticked me off a little. Perhaps if you hadn't made such a stupid statement, I wouldn't have gone off like that.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Maybe when I can raise enough money to visit Argentina.... you can show me around and show me just how wrong my perceptions of Argentineans have been....
I'd be glad to, seriously

[Phenomanul]

this is hilarious, seriously! Some fucker calls your dad "negro" and all of the sudden we're all racist and egomaniacs. Give me a fucking break! By that logic all Americans are racist fuckers too, since they have their share of racism.


No I've had my share of encounters with your fellow countrymen.... maybe 10 or so out of the 80 did not have the superiority complex I'm describing...

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Argentinians call themselves negro all the time, it's a way to call your mates. It doesn't have the same implications than in the US. As a matter of fact, negro means "black" in Spanish, so you can't use another word for black people.

[smeagol]

Perhaps in Europe, but when it comes down to selecting against those playing in Argentina... some of them are not better than those that play in Mexico....
So?

Aren’t we discussing which players should be part of the Argentine National squad, including the one who play in Europe? Under this scenario, which is what’s going to happen, only players playing in Europe plus Tevez and Mascherano and maybe one other will make the squad.


Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)...
How is this relevant to the discussion at hand. As Manumania said, it seems you want to transform the debate in one where Argentines admit the legitimacy of the Mexican league. I personally think it is a very competitive league. But the reality is that until Mexico does win something at club or National level, people in Argentina will not consider their league as top notch. No offense intended.


but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...
Wooowww!

No need to get this aggressive.


What happened when the player from Boca Juniors lured Cuahtemoc Blanco into a fight (everyone knows Blanco is a hot-head)? The CONMEBOL banned Blanco for two years and disallowed further games at Azteca Stadium...

By the same token, when Boca's fans started throwing things at Guadalajara's Chivas and started luring Adolfo Bautista into fighting... I didn't see that committee levy any fines or suspensions against the poster child organization of your Federation. Now that was B.S.
Man you are bitter.


How many articles criticizing the convocación of Cesar Delgado to the National team were released... almost all of them suggested that a local player be selected..... and yet Delgado was a vital player to Argentina's Gold Medal Squad.... I'm not 'blind' to the social implications that play behind the 'politics' in fútbol...
I don’t remember press articles criticizing drafting Delagado.

[Phenomanul]

I'd be glad to, seriously


Maybe in a year or two.... perhaps when the Spurs hold their training camp down there...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No I've had my share of encounters with your fellow countrymen.... maybe 10 or so out of the 80 did not have the superiority complex I'm describing... well i've met my share of Mexicans as well, do you see me making stupid generalizations like the one you made? Should I? really, I want to know, should I assume all Mexicans are like the ones I've met?

[Phenomanul]

So?

Aren’t we discussing which players should be part of the Argentine National squad, including the one who play in Europe? Under this scenario, which is what’s going to happen, only players playing in Europe plus Tevez and Mascherano and maybe one other will make the squad.


How is this relevant to the discussion at hand. As Manumania said, it seems you want to transform the debate in one where Argentines admit the legitimacy of the Mexican league. I personally think it is a very competitive league. But the reality is that until Mexico does win something at club or National level, people in Argentina will not consider their league as top notch. No offense intended.


Wooowww!

No need to get this aggressive.


Man you are bitter.


I don’t remember press articles criticizing drafting Delagado.


Maybe a little... my limited interaction with Argentineans (not including those on this board who wholeheartedly embrace the Spurs) has not been a good experience and has supported what many people have told me of them.... (my dad, other friends and family members etc...) Like I said, I'm actually trying to raise money to go to Chile with an invitation from the show-contest "ROJO"... I would like to make a stop over in Argentina...

[Phenomanul]

well i've met my share of Mexicans as well, do you see me making stupid generalizations like the one you made? Should I? really, I want to know, should I assume all Mexicans are like the ones I've met?


Actually I criticize the ignorance of many of my countrymen.... their notorious alcoholism... their 'macho' creed... I recognize our social problems... ignoring the problems won't make them change for the better....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Maybe a little... my limited interaction with Argentineans (not including those on this board who wholeheartedly embrace the Spurs) has not been a good experience and has supported what many people have told me of them.... (my dad, other friends and family members etc...) Like I said, I'm actually trying to raise money to go to Chile with an invitation from the show-contest "ROJO"... I would like to make a stop over in Argentina... your dad, your friends and your family members all told you Argentinians are ego driven racists and then we are supposedly the ones that think we're better than everyone else http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

Look, obviously your family doesn't know much about our culture, so tell them from me that regardless of the bad experiences they've had, they should never generalize like that. I'm not saying we don't have racism or ignorance here, but regardless of what you might think, it is the exception, not the rule. (about the racism, not the ignorance; ignorance is running rampant over here now a days)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Actually I criticize the ignorance of many of my countrymen.... their notorious alcoholism... their 'macho' creed... I recognize our social problems... ignoring the problems won't make them change for the better....
I'm not ignoring my culture's problems, its just that what you're talking about is not one of them. Now, had you said laziness, corruption, lack of entrepreneurship, etc I would probably agree

[Phenomanul]

your dad, your friends and your family members all told you Argentinians are ego driven racists and then we are supposedly the ones that think we're better than everyone else http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

Look, obviously your family doesn't know much about our culture, so tell them from me that regardless of the bad experiences they've had, they should never generalize like that. I'm not saying we don't have racism or ignorance here, but regardless of what you might think, it is the exception, not the rule. (about the racism, not the ignorance; ignorance is running rampant over here now a days)


Not to drag this on further.... But like I said I have had interaction with Argentineans myself who were full of themselves and treated others like crap....

I conceded that they were not the rule.... I was just amazed at the numbers... 10 out of 80 proved otherwise...

To make a generalization based on my own experience was wrong, I know.... I should know better than that... Perhaps I just happen to run only into 'rich spoiled kids' and not the people with Ginobili's humility....

Hopefully I will have better encounters in the future with countrymen from Mexico's sister country....

If we meet you all in the World Cup however... we will be enemies for a day. :angel

[Phenomanul]

Sometimes these arguments can teach you something about yourself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not to drag this on further.... But like I said I have had interaction with Argentineans myself who were full of themselves and treated others like crap....

I conceded that they were not the rule.... I was just amazed at the numbers... 10 out of 80 proved otherwise...

To make a generalization based on my own experience was wrong, I know.... I should know better than that... Perhaps I just happen to run only into 'rich spoiled kids' and not the people with Ginobili's humility....

Hopefully I will have better encounters in the future with countrymen from Mexico's sister country....

If we meet you all in the World Cup however... we will be enemies for a day. :angel
that I can wholeheartedly agree http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smispin.gif

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Just for the record, every Mexican I've met was courtious, generous and educated. Had you said yes to this


well i've met my share of Mexicans as well, do you see me making stupid generalizations like the one you made? Should I? really, I want to know, should I assume all Mexicans are like the ones I've met?

I would have been in trouble hahahaha! Anyway, I was trying to make a point :)

[Spurs#20]

hegamboa
Corpus Christi Spurs Fan
I don't know were you (and a lot of Mexican people) think that Argies think they're better than Mexicans. Maybe we think we are better because we actually have two world cups while you guys don't have any. Our soccer teams have so many international titles, while Mexico doesn't have any.
It's not that we don't like our players playing in Mexico, but we just have better ones playing in Europe and Argentina. Most of those players that you are talking about already had chances to play in the national team and they didn't perform at the level they should have. It is not about thinking that the mexican league doesn't have any talent or that they are not competitive, but we have players in other leagues that are much better.
When Mexico actually wins something instead of saying how good they are, then we could have a conversation about this

[Spurs#20]

Maybe when I can raise enough money to visit Argentina.... you can show me around and show me just how wrong my perceptions of Argentineans have been....

I have no idea why we have to prove you wrong we you haven't even been in Argentina to know how we actually are.

Why the majority of Mexicans think like this about us? We are so far apart.

We don't even know how Mexicans are!

[Phenomanul]

hegamboa
Corpus Christi Spurs Fan
I don't know were you (and a lot of Mexican people) think that Argies think they're better than Mexicans. Maybe we think we are better because we actually have two world cups while you guys don't have any. Our soccer teams have so many international titles, while Mexico doesn't have any.
It's not that we don't like our players playing in Mexico, but we just have better ones playing in Europe and Argentina. Most of those players that you are talking about already had chances to play in the national team and they didn't perform at the level they should have. It is not about thinking that the mexican league doesn't have any talent or that they are not competitive, but we have players in other leagues that are much better.
When Mexico actually wins something instead of saying how good they are, then we could have a conversation about this


Kick a guy while he is down... OK you are not helping..

I never stated that Mexico was actually better in Soccer than Argentina... If anything that would be an argument I would never enter (Argentina has all the acolades)... Ever since CONMEBOL has allowed Mexico to participate in CONMEBOL sponsored club and National team tournaments however... The Mexican squads have fared well... Brazil, Argentina, Mexico.... has been the proper order of power for the longest time.... I'm not ignorant you know.

Uruguay also won the World Cup back in the 50's... and currently I don't think they are better than Mexico... you must realize that this is only my opinion.... I'm looking at recent history here.... throwing around what happenned in 1978 and 1986 to reflect what is going on today is not very original.


Anyways, the conversation evolved into how my perception of Argentineans was based on my encounters and interactions with them while in school.... and on similar experiences from the many people I know, including my dad who has actually been in Argentina.... Manu'sMagicalLeftHand suggested that my dad had simply not visited the right locations and that being called negro was not necesarily a derrogatory comment... Considering my dad actually looks 'white' you would then assume he was being called indio and negro because they knew he was Mexican.... It really didn't bother him, he conducted his business, enjoyed the food and came home... I didn't even know that this had occurred on his trip in 1997 until I told him what the Argentineans were doing at my school in 2001; read below. Was this tormenting him? Loosing sleep over it??? No... Like I said, I didn't know that he had been insulted on cause of his nationality till 4 years down the road... Some of you all had the audacity to suggest I was blowing everything out of proportion, that my dad was being paranoid etc... I simply stated that my perceptions were based on my life's experience to date... The overwhelming 'data' was too much to ignore.

For example: we had a society of Latin American Engineers at college with people from Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Colombia, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Paraguay, Uruguay, Guatemala, Peru, etc... There were several Argentineans at my school.... where were they??? OH yeah... they wanted nothing to do with us cause it was beneath them to meddle with "los indios".... verbatim, from their mouths. Instead they chose to hang out with the people from Spain and Italy.... the Italians were cool but the Spaniards were also quite vocal about not wanting to be associated with us...

When you meet that many Argentineans and more than 80% of them have acted like pompous punks you are not left with a very good impression.... Like I mentioned earlier though... perhaps the sample size was more related to their particular socio-economic status and not relevant to the Argentinean people as a whole.... That was where I made my error in judgement... But if you could not see my apology... go ahead and keep on kicking... join the 80% group.

Oh... BTW

http://www.terra.com/espdep/articulo/html/fox191431.htm

Porque tendría que aclarar que el jugar en México no es desventaja??? Quién y qué fue lo que le preguntaron???

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?cid=275678

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Oh... BTW

http://www.terra.com/espdep/articulo/html/fox191431.htm

Porque tendría que aclarar que el jugar en México no es desventaja??? Quién y qué fue lo que le preguntaron???

http://www.univision.com/content/co...html?cid=275678 (http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?cid=275678) Jesus! not this shit again! FACE IT Hegamboa! When it comes to soccer, Mexico's League does not have the same weight or prestiege as the European leagues. You just don't! Playing in Mexico is simply not the same as playing in Europe. Delgado is in Mexico because so far he hasn't been good enough to play in Europe! GET IT!!???

Its the same case as if we were talking about basketball with regards to the Euro leagues and the NBA. Euro leagues aren't bad, but they don't hold a candle to the NBA. Now if you can understand that, which I'm preety sure you can, why is it so hard for you to understand the fact that Mexico's league is simply not as good as the elite teams in Europe. Perhaps its the fact that you are Mexican and you simply don't feel like facing the fact?

Argentina doesn't choose their players simply because they are playing in Europe, like it had nothing to do with how good they are. Those players are playing in Europe BECAUSE of how good they are, which is better than the rest of the players playing elsewhere. Now this isn't always the rule, but it most certainly is not the exception, and it is the case in this situation.

[Phenomanul]

Jesus! not this shit again! FACE IT Hegamboa! When it comes to soccer, Mexico's League does not have the same weight or prestiege as the European leagues. You just don't! Playing in Mexico is simply not the same as playing in Europe. Delgado is in Mexico because so far he hasn't been good enough to play in Europe! GET IT!!???

Its the same case as if we were talking about basketball with regards to the Euro leagues and the NBA. Euro leagues aren't bad, but they don't hold a candle to the NBA. Now if you can understand that, which I'm preety sure you can, why is it so hard for you to understand the fact that Mexico's league is simply not as good as the elite teams in Europe. Perhaps its the fact that you are Mexican and you simply don't feel like facing the fact?


Dude... chill out. I was just trying to find the articles I read earlier this year.... Manu'sMagicalLeftHand implied I was making it up....

I hate, underline hate, being called a liar... directly or in this case indirectly.

You all have gone head over heels bringing up your history to put Mexican soccer in its place.... I was never arguing history... I'm arguing what's going on right now. QUIT BEING so belligerent.... geeesh.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Dude... chill out. I was just trying to find the articles I read earlier this year.... Manu'sMagicalLeftHand implied I was making it up....

I hate, underline hate, being called a liar... directly or in this case indirectly.

You all have gone head over heels bringing up your history to put Mexican soccer in its place.... I was never arguing history... I'm arguing what's going on right now. QUIT BEING so belligerent.... geeesh.
Look, I understand that you hate being called a liar, and I don't believe you are, I do believe however that you're wrong. I also am a little tired of listening to you imply that players in Mexico are being discriminated against, which is the reason you posted those two articles and asked " Porque tendría que aclarar que el jugar en México no es desventaja??? Quién y qué fue lo que le preguntaron???". There is no discrimination, the players that weren't called are simply not good enough.

Now lets please change the subject because this is getting really old, really fast

[Phenomanul]

Look, I understand that you hate being called a liar, and I don't believe you are, I do believe however that you're wrong. I also am a little tired of listening to you imply that players in Mexico are being discriminated against, which is the reason you posted those two articles and asked " Porque tendría que aclarar que el jugar en México no es desventaja??? Quién y qué fue lo que le preguntaron???". There is no discrimination, the players that weren't called are simply not good enough.

Now lets please change the subject because this is getting really old, really fast


You seem to throw jabs in every post.... cut that crap out.

Someone asked Delgado in that press room.... and it definitely wasn't me. Therefore, 'other people' know this to be an issue... that the general Argentinean populace is unaware of it is another story.

Everyone of you all has stated something similar to your bolded statement.... that is your opinion... don't pass it off as fact....

Mexican teams can not beat European clubs.... I dispelled that opinion as a lie.

Mexican teams suck and are no match for the European leagues... yeah... real original. Several Mexican squads could beat many European clubs from several of their leagues... not all of them.

Top down though I STATED that the EUROPEAN Leagues were better.

You all keep implying that I live in some delusional world where this is not the case.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Everyone of you all has stated something similar to your bolded statement.... that is your opinion... don't pass it off as fact....
It is a fact, your ass simply can bring yourself to facing it.


Mexican teams can not beat European clubs.... I dispelled that opinion as a lie.
I never, EVER said Mexican teams can not beat European clubs. Your selective reading is hilarious. Any team can beat any team, any given day, but in general, European teams are better than Mexican teams.


Mexican teams suck and are no match for the European leagues... yeah... real original. Several Mexican squads could beat many European clubs from several of their leagues... not all of them.
Again, I never said Mexican teams suck, but you seem to always be on the defensive. Mexican teams don't suck, they are just not as good as the elite European teams. Also I agree that several Mexican squads could beat many mediocre European teams, I never said they couldn't.

Seriously man, what is it you are trying to get us to admit? That the Mexican league is as good as the European??? ITS NOT!!!

[Phenomanul]

It is a fact, your ass simply can bring yourself to facing it.

I never, EVER said Mexican teams can not beat European clubs. Your selective reading is hilarious. Any team can beat any team, any given day, but in general, European teams are better than Mexican teams.


Again, I never said Mexican teams suck, but you seem to always be on the defensive. Mexican teams don't suck, they are just not as good as the elite European teams. Also I agree that several Mexican squads could beat many mediocre European teams, I never said they couldn't.

Seriously man, what is it you are trying to get us to admit? That the Mexican league is as good as the European??? ITS NOT!!!

Dude you are not the only one replying... so don't give me the "selective reading" argument.... other posters have said and implied what my previous post said....

I know where Mexican clubs rank in terms of world pecking order.... I'm not stupid... quit trying to make others believe that this has been my claim all along.

The discussion turned into a social one... and the other posters didn't realize it.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Dude you are not the only one replying... so don't give me the "selective reading" argument.... other posters have said and implied what my previous post said....

I know where Mexican clubs rank in terms of world pecking order.... I'm not stupid... quit trying to make others believe that this has been my claim all along.

The discussion turned into a social one... and the other posters didn't realize it. Bullshit, noone in this thread has said or implied that Mexican teams suck, read again. The only comment that resembles that, is Manu'sMagicalLeftHand's about Mexican teams not being able to beat elite european teams, which in and of itself does not imply that Mexican teams suck, but rather that elite Euro teams are better, which is a fact.

You claim we said or implied Mexican teams suck to support a BS argument that we Argies are biased against players in Mexico. Then YOU went ahead and when it became clear that your arguments about soccer didn't hold water, turned this whole thing into a social matter. Nothing you have said in this thread is valid, from your claims that the AFA chooses not to select players from Mexico because of some bullshit bias...

People's exhibit one

Why does the Argentianian national team discriminate against Argentinian players who play in Mexico???

The only one on the squad is el "Chelo" Delgado...

Bruno Marioni is pretty good
So is Walter Gaitan...

Do they only have "eyes" for players that play in Europe????
Fair enough... I'm simply trying to point out the fact Argentina choses not to pick up players playing in the Mexican leagues over players playing in Argentina because it would be like making a concession to the fact that the Mexican League was legit (which happens to pay better salaries than that offered by most Argentinean clubs).

Most Argentineans would be apalled by that notion... and that is why it rarely happens. Comparable talent aside, I believe that 'discrimination' to be one of the underlying reasons for said trend. ... to your claim that us Argies think we are better than the rest of Latin America

People's Exhibit two

Your media can 'tout' and 'promote' them as better all they want... I see the bigger picture.... You might not say it outright... or you might not believe it (which is good)... but Argentineans typically carry themselves as if they were superior to the rest of the latin-american races from this hemisphere...
Many Argentineans consider themselves "white" and consider the Chileans, the Costa Ricans, Ecuatorianos, Colombians, Mexicans... as Indians.... Don't be naive that that is not the case.... It is not the rule, but it is definitely not the exception.
Nothing you've posted in here has a thread of legitimacy, nothing. Furthermore I'm not trying to make anyone believe anything. What you have been claiming is preety damn obvious, and it bears no resemblance with reality.

[Phenomanul]

Bullshit, noone in this thread has said or implied that Mexican teams suck, read again. The only comment that resembles that, is Manu'sMagicalLeftHand's about Mexican teams not being able to beat elite european teams, which in and of itself does not imply that Mexican teams suck, but rather that elite Euro teams are better, which is a fact.

You claim we said or implied Mexican teams suck to support a BS argument that we Argies are biased against players in Mexico. Then YOU went ahead and when it became clear that your arguments about soccer didn't hold water, turned this whole thing into a social matter. Nothing you have said in this thread is valid, from your claims that the AFA chooses not to select players from Mexico because of some bullshit bias...

People's exhibit one
... to your claim that us Argies think we are better than the rest of Latin America

People's Exhibit two
[/size][/size] [/size][/size]
Nothing you've posted in here has a thread of legitimacy, nothing. Furthermore I'm not trying to make anyone believe anything. What you have been claiming is preety damn obvious, and it bears no resemblance with reality.


Yeah.... OK.... pulling out quotes out of the context of the flow of the thread makes you:

Devil's Advocate No. 1

I have stated which of my comments were my opinion...
Something apparently you don't know how to do...

You have tried to pass your opinions off as fact, whether or not 90% of Argentineans believe the same way you do, does not make an opionion a fact... UNDERSTAND that... it is still an opinion. Comparison of talent is rather subjective. It's not like I was saying "Kwame Brown was better than Tim Duncan..." yet that is how all of your fellow countrymen took the comparison.

And since you insist on being belligerent... this will be my last post on this thread... I've already told you I hate it when it gets personal. And rather than trying to sway my perceptions about Argentineans you only seemed to add more fuel to the fire. It seems you only want to argue and come out as the victor... I hate to break it to you. But trying to invalidate anything I've said will not win you a prize. You will not earn money. You will not earn a spur from Kori. You definitely have not earned my respect.... I will tell you what you will get....

OH Yeah............ bragging rights....
But wait..... I thought you said Argentineans were not about that. hmmm....


I don't care if you reply 10 more times to this thread and continue to try and make me look ignorant with your "smarter than thou" approach.

Earlier in the discussion I recognized my error in judgement...

You couldn't have it at that.... ignorant posters like yourself relish the opportunity to gloat about something you don't even have to balls to do... You haven't willingly conceded on anything... except maybe pointing out that you were going to lie about your perceptions of Mexicans just to make a point.... And then you have the galls to try and claim nothing I've said is valid...

I didn't turn it into a social discussion to cop out of the 1st question I posted.... I sincerely wanted to know why the predilection to look over players in the Mexican league existed... The social implication was there all along in the first question you've so gallantly dug up....

But I didn't get sincere answers.... all I recieved were people telling me that "Bruno Marioni was crap" -OPINION,

that "Gaitán" only earned his nick-name cause his competition in Mexico was inferior... -OPINION,

how I would dare compare the level of elite Mexican clubs to European clubs... and that the notion was stupid... -OPINION.

that allowing for "the growth and development of players while in Mexico" was a cop out argument.... -OPINION

Any attempt on my part to address those comments was recieved with people reminding me that Argentina had won two World Cups and that Mexico had not yet won anything.... basically to shut-up. That argument will always be a cop out in my book: "I don't want to hear anything you say because only what I believe... is true... so just shut up"

When I reminded them that PUMAS had beaten both Real Madrid and FC Barcelona's 'A' Squads...

The reply was: "in Friendlies"

Then I stated that "Necaxa had placed third in the First World Club Championships"

The reply was: "Well then why is Saprissa getting their behinds handed to them against Liverpool in this year's edition"

When I reminded them that the short history of Mexico's participation in CONMEBOL sponsored tournaments has been a good one... Someone basically discredited PUMAS's achievement by saying the NISSAN cup was bogus....

Certain things don't have to be said explicitly when the context speaks for itself. Rather than answer the questions you all would continually bring new modifiers or clauses or whatever... The argument was simply:


"We don't pick players from Mexico simply because there are better players playing elsewhere" -OPINION

That I could understand... but again.... You all wanted me to accept this opinion as a fact...

I opened up pandora's box, so now I'm closing it. :tu :tu


Hurry... go on... go ask Kori or timvp for a spur.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You have tried to pass your opinions off as fact, whether or not 90% of Argentineans believe the same way you do, does not make an opionion a fact... UNDERSTAND that... it is still an opinion. Comparison of talent is rather subjective. It's not like I was saying "Kwame Brown was better than Tim Duncan..." yet that is how all of your fellow countrymen took the comparison. That is convenient isn't it. Yes you're right that comparison of talent is very subjective, but that subjectivity comes into place when the difference is minimal, and in this case its not. Any self respecting soccer aficionado knows the monumental difference in talent between the Euro leagues and the Mexican league, you're are simply being a gigantic fucking homer and don't want to face reality.


And since you insist on being belligerent... this will be my last post on this thread... I've already told you I hate it when it gets personal. And rather than trying to sway my perceptions about Argentineans you only seemed to add more fuel to the fire. It seems you only want to argue and come out as the victor... I hate to break it to you. But trying to invalidate anything I've said will not win you a prize. You will not earn money. You will not earn a spur from Kori. You definitely have not earned my respect.... I will tell you what you will get....
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif that is fucking rich. Take a look at your comments about Argentinians throughout this thread and you will understand why I'm belligerent. I'm glad this is your last post, it will put an end to the ignorance.


OH Yeah............ bragging rights....
But wait..... I thought you said Argentineans were not about that. hmmm.... bragging rights? what the fuck are you talking about? do you see me bragging anywhere? Besides I wouldn't bragg about a stupid discussion like this one.


You couldn't have it at that.... ignorant posters like yourself relish the opportunity to gloat about something you don't even have to balls to do... You haven't willingly conceded on anything... except maybe pointing out that you were going to lie about your perceptions of Mexicans just to make a point.... And then you have the galls to try and claim nothing I've said is valid...
Concede to what? We don't agree about the difference in talent between the Euro league and the Mexican league, therefor I won't concede on that. Then you imply we Argies think we're better than everyone else, and I know that is bullshit, so I'm not conceeding anything on that either. What exactly do you want to concede??

Second I did not admit I was going to lie you stupid fuck, the question I asked was "should I assume all Mexicans are like the ones I've met" which nowhere does it imply a bad thing. I was never going to say nor imply that Mexicans were in any way different from the ones I've met, and I told you the ones I've met were courtious and educated. It surprises me that someone with a supposed double PHD wouldn't know the difference. STOP MAKING SHIT UP!


I didn't turn it into a social discussion to cop out of the 1st question I posted.... I sincerely wanted to know why the predilection to look over players in the Mexican league existed... The social implication was there all along in the first question you've so gallantly dug up....
Its not overlooking, THEY ARE SIMPLY NOT AS GOOD AS THE OTHER PLAYERS! what, am I speaking Swahili?? Jesus, you have one big fucking chip on your shoulder, you know that?


But I didn't get sincere answers.... all I recieved were people telling me that "Bruno Marioni was crap" -OPINION,
You're right, he may not be crap, he is just NOT GOOD ENOUGH! that maybe opinion, but its the opinion of the people running AFA, and they are the ones selecting the players.



that "Gaitán" only earned his nick-name cause his competition in Mexico was inferior... -OPINION,
Look Gaitan may be the shit over there, but over here he was mediocre, and again, HE IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH!


how I would dare compare the level of elite Mexican clubs to European clubs... and that the notion was stupid... -OPINION.

Its not stupid, its a homer notion, you want to hide behind the "opinion" blanket fine, it still doesn't make it true.


Any attempt on my part to address those comments was recieved with people reminding me that Argentina had won two World Cups and that Mexico had not yet won anything.... basically to shut-up. That argument will always be a cop out in my book: "I don't want to hear anything you say because only what I believe... is true... so just shut up"
Look, I may "believe" that the Euro baketball leagues are on par with the NBA, and that may be my "opinion" BUT ITS NOT FACT!! Any self respecting basketball fan knows this, just like any self respecting soccer fan would never compare the Mexican league with the Euro leagues. If you can't deal with that "opinion" then no point discussing this any further.


When I reminded them that PUMAS had beaten both Real Madrid and FC Barcelona's 'A' Squads...

The reply was: "in Friendlies"
You honestly believe a "friendly" game is the same as a tournament game? That is exactly like saying the Hawks are as good as the Spurs because they beat us in a pre-season game http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif You're full of shit.


When I reminded them that the short history of Mexico's participation in CONMEBOL sponsored tournaments has been a good one... Someone basically discredited PUMAS's achievement by saying the NISSAN cup was bogus....
The NISSAN isn't bogus, you are right


Certain things don't have to be said explicitly when the context speaks for itself. Rather than answer the questions you all would continually bring new modifiers or clauses or whatever... The argument was simply:


"We don't pick players from Mexico simply because there are better players playing elsewhere" -OPINION

Again, hiding behind the cloak of "opinion" http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Yeah, its the POPULAR opinion. Its an opinion based on performance and achievements rather than desire, like yours is.

Anyway, I'm done here, you believe whatever you want.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Dude... chill out. I was just trying to find the articles I read earlier this year.... Manu'sMagicalLeftHand implied I was making it up....

I hate, underline hate, being called a liar... directly or in this case indirectly.

You all have gone head over heels bringing up your history to put Mexican soccer in its place.... I was never arguing history... I'm arguing what's going on right now. QUIT BEING so belligerent.... geeesh.

Man, you know that the site you linked to, and those articles and questions are from Mexican journalists, right? I guess it's inferiority complex, that's why they are asking him? In Argentina no one gives a crap about Delgado, the Mexican League, or what the Mexicans think about us. Our hatred rivals are Brazil, England and maybe Chile (if we are generous to them considering rivals), enough said.

Mexicans seem so beligerant towards Argentinian football, maybe they should keep the bullshit to themselves. I don't know what caused it, maybe too many foreigners on your league, don't have a clue. But that need to speak about how great the Mexican League is everywhere a Mexican shows up sounds like a tremendous inferiority complex. Like that twat Hugo Sanchez speaking shit about Lavolpe, and the Mexicans siding with him like we Argies care, well guess what? No one gives a fuck about Lavolpe here. I've never heard an Argentinian or Brazilian say "my league is one of the best in the world" unless someone else was talking shit about their Leagues. And why you ask? Because simply you take a look at their achievements, they speak for themselves.

Hegamboa, I've read your posts. What you state most as "Opinions" are well known facts for anyone who knows a thing or two about football, and doesn't work for Televisa or Azteca TV or whatever it's the name.

And by the way, yeah. Passarella, Bielsa, Pekerman, three top coaches, didn't select players because they are playing in the Mexican league, and this is all a conspiracy. Happy now? Jeez.

[1369]

Since ya'll are on the subject, I was in Argentina in 2004 (In Cordoba hunting) and on the way to the national airport in BA, the driver and our escort were in a nine-line bind because that week the Argentina National team had their collective backsides handed to them by the hated Brazilian team (At least that's what I got out of the conversation) and were ready to hang everyone from the coach to the towel boy from the nearest overpass. Have Argentina and Brazil played since then?

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Since ya'll are on the subject, I was in Argentina in 2004 (In Cordoba hunting) and on the way to the national airport in BA, the driver and our escort were in a nine-line bind because that week the Argentina National team had their collective backsides handed to them by the hated Brazilian team (At least that's what I got out of the conversation) and were ready to hang everyone from the coach to the towel boy from the nearest overpass. Have Argentina and Brazil played since then?

They've played two games since then. Argentina won the first 3-1, and Brazil won the other, 4-1.

[1369]

Well then, I guess they didn't hang anyone.

Are the odds fairly good that the two will meet in Germany at some point (Forgive my ignorance on the group seedings)?

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Well then, I guess they didn't hang anyone.

Are the odds fairly good that the two will meet in Germany at some point (Forgive my ignorance on the group seedings)?

Semifinals is where the two could meet. It would be one hell of a game, that's for sure.

[danyel]

Some points I wanted to make:
- Argentinean players playing in the mexican league, with some few exceptions, aren't better than most argentinean players in european leagues (English, Spanish nor Italian). That comes from better salaries, better exposition (how many argentinean players went from european leagues to the mexican league and how many went in the other direction?), better competition (its not only how good your team really is, its also about how good the other teams/players are).

- A player having a good tournament in a top european league gets more praised than a player having an extraodinary tournament in Mexico. Sure, just as Manu got more praised being the 6th man in a title run in the NBA than Scola winning the MVP in Spain... European leagues do get more exposition, have more followers in Argentina than the Mexican league, they also get more exposition than the Brazilian league or the Dutch league.

- Argentina and Brazil over other countries in the region have a longer succesful history in soccer, thats also translates into more followers, more publicity, more money spent, etc, etc. That also translates in those countries having more influence in regional decisions such as disciplinaries committees. It isnt fair, I agree, thats life...

- A player having a very good tournament in Argentina has more chances of being called to the national team than if he was playing in Mexico. Sure, the coach gets more chances to watch him, to talk to him, to talk to his coach, to read the media comments, etc.

- Recently imposed World Club Cup doesnt exactly count as a stick to meassure power between european and american teams, neither does the Intercontinental Nissan cup. In the first the tournament level isnt any good, just a couple of good teams, european teams dont really care about it. They didnt care that much about the Nissan Cup either, Liverpool refused to play it a couple of years ago, they simply dont care as much as we in america do.

- Negro isnt always used as a derogatory term in Argentina, at least in Buenos Aires, its a common term often used instead of "che" or "jefe" etc to get someones attention. My sister sometimes calls me negro, some friends call me negro my aunt was nicknamed "la negra" when she was little and I have Polish descent. Also la negra Sosa (singer) or el negro Gonzales Oro (radio broadcaster) are famous people who go by the "negro" nickname.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

We'll see Sunday... of course if Pumas wins... You all will start throwing the history....

Anyways I'm not saying all Argentineans are aware of this or behave this way....

You were saying???? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Seriously put your money where your mouth is!

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

You are throwing salt on his wound, that's not a nice thing to do.

I keep what I've said: the South American Cup won't have any prestige until some kind of merit is required to qualify.

[velik_m]

there was an argentinian player in slovenian league a while ago and a couple of brazilians too, but none of them was called into national team :( do you latinos have something against slovenians? You are racist! :pctoss

:lol

[hendrix]

I'm kind of late but anyways....

1. Cesar Delgado and Luciano Figueroa played for the NT while been in Mexico.
I dont know if there is a conspiracy by the "Big Teams" in Argentina or what... but I think Figueroa (now in Spain) deserves to go to the World Cup more than Saviola for example. But Saviola is a River Plate boy... so...
Delgado hasn't played well last games he played for the NT (except against Paraguay) so is hard to argue.

2. I understand Hegamboa. I acknowledge that's a pretty common point of view about argentinians. There's not much we can do about it. Some miserable people from this precious land made a bad reputation for all of us.
And thou I think racism is less and less frequest here (like in ANY other place in the world), I do think a lot of people have an attitude problem.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You are throwing salt on his wound, that's not a nice thing to do.

I keep what I've said: the South American Cup won't have any prestige until some kind of merit is required to qualify. whoever said anything about being nice? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I'm sorry, if he wants recognition for his country, he has to get the criticism for the bad as well as the good. They lost, I'm entitled to gloat http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif He's all "if Pumas win... you'll talk about history... bla, bla, bla" well, they didn't win, period. Now what?

*Note that I'm gloating as an Argentinian, because as River plate fan, I actually wanted Pumas to win http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif