A question for you Catholics out there...

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't get something. I know of a local convent for retired nuns here in San Antonio...Their heating system is a total basket case and there is no "cheap" way to fix it...I mean...it's beyond "rigging", it's dead.

They are giving me this story that it is a "poor" parish, they don't have any money, the poor old nuns are cold, etc...

Whats up with that? It's not like the Catholic Church doesn't have any money...

Don't they give a shit about these retired nuns?

[Oh, Gee!!]

nuns take a vow of poverty

[Mixability]

Thats what I don't get about the church near my house. They make loads of money(they post the collection numbers in the bulletin). But every summer, the AC is out and they start a collection to repair it, and every winter the heater doesn't work, so they ask for another collection. I'm all for donating money, but not to buy the preacher another car.

[Jekka]

I don't get something. I know of a local convent for retired nuns here in San Antonio...Their heating system is a total basket case and there is no "cheap" way to fix it...I mean...it's beyond "rigging", it's dead.

They are giving me this story that it is a "poor" parish, they don't have any money, the poor old nuns are cold, etc...

Whats up with that? It's not like the Catholic Church doesn't have any money...

Don't they give a shit about these retired nuns?

Ah yes, that is a question I wrestle with whenever I docent at the Vatican exhibit in town. There are diamond encrusted challices and sapphire rosaries and a tiara with one of the world's biggest emeralds - yet, there are so many destitutely poor Catholic parishes in the world ... it makes no sense to me.

[travis2]

I don't get something. I know of a local convent for retired nuns here in San Antonio...Their heating system is a total basket case and there is no "cheap" way to fix it...I mean...it's beyond "rigging", it's dead.

They are giving me this story that it is a "poor" parish, they don't have any money, the poor old nuns are cold, etc...

Whats up with that? It's not like the Catholic Church doesn't have any money...

Don't they give a shit about these retired nuns?

Parishes are pretty autonomous as far as administration and finances and things like that. There is no "central Church bank" or anything like that above the parish level. Offices above the parish are maintained through a "tax" (gee, sounds like our government) on the parishes by the diocese.

If the convent is actually attached to the parish, then for the most part its upkeep is indeed dependent on the resources the parish itself is able to give it.

Now, one thing the parish could do is make an appeal through the archdiocese for donations from other parishes. (This is not all that uncommon...half the Masses I attend seem to have a "second collection" for some specific purpose).

[tlongII]

I believe most of the money is ear-marked for legal settlements.

[travis2]

Ah yes, that is a question I wrestle with whenever I docent at the Vatican exhibit in town. There are diamond encrusted challices and sapphire rosaries and a tiara with one of the world's biggest emeralds - yet, there are so many destitutely poor Catholic parishes in the world ... it makes no sense to me.

So...merely a hypothetical question; I'm looking for a fight...

Do you believe that the Catholic Church could end poverty as we know it if it sold off every asset of worth and donated the money thus raised to the myriad of organizations that help the destitute in the world?

[greywheel]

So...merely a hypothetical question; I'm looking for a fight...

Do you believe that the Catholic Church could end poverty as we know it if it sold off every asset of worth and donated the money thus raised to the myriad of organizations that help the destitute in the world?

So you are implying that the Catholic Church does not help the destitute in the world currently?

[travis2]

So you are implying that the Catholic Church does not help the destitute in the world currently?

Absolutely not! However, the argument Jekka is using has in the past been used to imply that. (I am not saying she is making such an argument)

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

So...merely a hypothetical question; I'm looking for a fight...

Do you believe that the Catholic Church could end poverty as we know it if it sold off every asset of worth and donated the money thus raised to the myriad of organizations that help the destitute in the world?

Do you mean worldwide poverty? If that's the case then no. Speaking as a confirmed-but-now-disillusioned Catholic, I would love to see the church do some good with all of that stuff, but given that there's a number of global agencies putting billions every year towards ending poverty I don't think the Vatican holding a garage sale is going to be enough to completely turn the tide.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't think it's the Catholic Churches responsibility to "end poverty"...I just think there is a definite lack of basic care and compassion for these retired nuns...they took the vows of chastity etc. and dedicated their life to the church and now these little old ladies have no family but the "church" to take care of them...

[xrayzebra]

I don't think it's the Catholic Churches responsibility to "end poverty"...I just think there is a definite lack of basic care and compassion for these retired nuns...they took the vows of chastity etc. and dedicated their life to the church and now these little old ladies have no family but the "church" to take care of them...

Well CC, looks like to me that the parishioners of their church could come up
with a few bucks to pay for repairs. Or as Travis says, let some of the
other churches support them through their "taxes". The merchant/repair
person shouldn't have to foot the bill, nor should the merchant/repair person
overcharge. Both parties should try to be honest in their relationship.

[CosmicCowboy]

hmmm...I made a professional recommendation that they go with a totally different system where I wouldn't be involved in the work, but as Travis picked up on, this is a "poor" parish on the southeast side..they probably can't come up with the 30-40K that would be required within that church...but what got me was the attitude...it was like..."well..they are too old to work anyway..."

[Jekka]

Do you mean worldwide poverty? If that's the case then no. Speaking as a confirmed-but-now-disillusioned Catholic, I would love to see the church do some good with all of that stuff, but given that there's a number of global agencies putting billions every year towards ending poverty I don't think the Vatican holding a garage sale is going to be enough to completely turn the tide.

I pretty much agree with this - I don't think that "the Vatican holding a garage sale is going to be enough to completely turn the tide" - for one, the likelihood of actually getting what those artifacts are worth is pretty slim. Those things are pretty priceless (believe me, I'm sick of businessmen at that exhibit asking OVER and OVER and OVER again, "how much do you think this would be worth today? No, really, how much?"). In lieu of the exhibit, if nothing else, I think that the profits from it should be going to the poorest parishes (they may already be, but I haven't asked where the money is going. As it is run by ClearChannel, I had assumed that they would be benefitting the most ... since they're ClearChannel.). Also, a "Vatican garage sale" wouldn't be a lasting solution.

It's just difficult to stand in a room with that much wealth and think, "the nuns down the street can't afford to get their heater fixed."

[Oh, Gee!!]

the Catholics killed my ancestors

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

the Catholics killed my ancestors


Looks like they missed one.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

the Catholics killed my ancestors

You might want to narrow it down. The Catholic church's history has a variety of people's blood in it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

your epidermis is showing

[JoeChalupa]

Nice job Travis.

I've learned to just be Catholic and leave it at that.

Believe and let believe.

I worked for a Parish for several years.

[JoeChalupa]

Somethings have no monetary value.

[easjer]

Don't forget about history and psychology with the Church. Remember that the chapels are supposed to be the house of God, and as such were decorated with as much value as possible (this exhibit came from chapels, yes?) and many of these things were not commissioned by the Church (or individual parishes) but were donated by private families/individuals (for a variety of reasons, some less noble than others).

So they want people to walk in and know what Heaven will be like (please remember, I'm talking about the Pre-Reformation Church, Dark Ages to Renaissance). And it's not like they could really sell those items to give money to the poor . . . because who would the buyers be? The people with money who gave them in the first place.

Also, Jesus said, Blessed be the poor . . . so while the Church wants to make certain people have food and water, they are not likely to go about ending poverty when the center of their faith wasn't opposed to it.

[smeagol]

Also, Jesus said, Blessed be the poor . . . so while the Church wants to make certain people have food and water, they are not likely to go about ending poverty when the center of their faith wasn't opposed to it.
Not sure I agree with this statement. I believe that if the Church found a way to eradicate poverty, they would do it.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't get something. I know of a local convent for retired nuns here in San Antonio...Their heating system is a total basket case and there is no "cheap" way to fix it...I mean...it's beyond "rigging", it's dead.

They are giving me this story that it is a "poor" parish, they don't have any money, the poor old nuns are cold, etc...

Whats up with that? It's not like the Catholic Church doesn't have any money...

Don't they give a shit about these retired nuns?

It's like a country that is rich but small cities within it still rely on their local economy for most of their expenditures.

[CosmicCowboy]

Parishes are pretty autonomous as far as administration and finances and things like that. There is no "central Church bank" or anything like that above the parish level. Offices above the parish are maintained through a "tax" (gee, sounds like our government) on the parishes by the diocese.

If the convent is actually attached to the parish, then for the most part its upkeep is indeed dependent on the resources the parish itself is able to give it.

Now, one thing the parish could do is make an appeal through the archdiocese for donations from other parishes. (This is not all that uncommon...half the Masses I attend seem to have a "second collection" for some specific purpose).

hmmm...so a having a Parish is kinda like having a McDonalds franchise?...It all about location.location,location?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

One thing I seriously would love to read about, is a study that analyzes the donations in churches within "rich" areas of town, and churches within "poor" areas of town.

I would foam at the mouth. The results would be pretty insightful, I bet..

[iminlakerland]

I work at a Catholic Chruch and we struggle every month to pay our bills. A week the parish needs to make close to 8200 a week to cover our costs. We barely meet that. We have had problems with our heating and cooling systems over the years, and there is literally no cheap way to fix it. Sad thing is many of the parishes get taken for a ride by these companies.

Our parish recieves no help from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, but we do send a certain percentage of our collections a year to them. I believe its 9% of what we make. Consider how many parishes are in the LA Archdiocese and how much that adds up to.

As far as my parish goes we have nuns and priests that are Carmelites. They take a vow of poverty. The parish basically supports them. We do not recieve any supplementary funding from the Archdiocese. Thats some of the info that i got.

[spurster]

Ah yes, that is a question I wrestle with whenever I docent at the Vatican exhibit in town. There are diamond encrusted challices and sapphire rosaries and a tiara with one of the world's biggest emeralds - yet, there are so many destitutely poor Catholic parishes in the world ... it makes no sense to me.
You are assuming that wealth is a zero-sum game. Part of the attraction is grandeur of the church. Selling off all their stuff and worshipping in shacks loses a lot, lot more in the long run.

[CosmicCowboy]

I work at a Catholic Chruch and we struggle every month to pay our bills. A week the parish needs to make close to 8200 a week to cover our costs. We barely meet that. We have had problems with our heating and cooling systems over the years, and there is literally no cheap way to fix it. Sad thing is many of the parishes get taken for a ride by these companies.

Our parish recieves no help from the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, but we do send a certain percentage of our collections a year to them. I believe its 9% of what we make. Consider how many parishes are in the LA Archdiocese and how much that adds up to.

As far as my parish goes we have nuns and priests that are Carmelites. They take a vow of poverty. The parish basically supports them. We do not recieve any supplementary funding from the Archdiocese. Thats some of the info that i got.

daaaang!...9%???? Most franchise fees are 3% to 7% of gross...thats a heck of a racket...

[iminlakerland]

One thing I seriously would love to read about, is a study that analyzes the donations in churches within "rich" areas of town, and churches within "poor" areas of town.

I would foam at the mouth. The results would be pretty insightful, I bet..

Actually its pretty interesting. Within a 5 mile radius of my parish there are 5-6 Parishes in the area. It is quite interesting how the money fluctuates. My parish as well as another neighboring parish struggle to pay our finances, while the other 3-4 have absolutely no problem paying their bills.

As far as major repairs go there are many routes the convent can take. They can actually run a "Capital Campaign" which is basically a 2-3 pledge that parishioners make to pay for the work for the heating. We actually had to do this at the parish i work at after the roof of our parish was going to collapse.

The Archdiocese can also set up an appeal on behalf of the convent as well, where a certain percentage would be required from each parish depending on the income of the parish to help support the upgrades.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Also, Jesus said, Blessed be the poor . . . so while the Church wants to make certain people have food and water, they are not likely to go about ending poverty when the center of their faith wasn't opposed to it.

That's funny. The Catholic Church, along with most organized religions, spend a lot of their resources helping the poor.

I guess you could use the same logic and say that medical doctors don't really want to cure the sick because illness is the center of their profession.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I guess you could use the same logic and say that medical doctors don't really want to cure the sick because illness is the center of their profession.

they do cure the sick but they contribute to poverty that may lead to sickness by sucking up a grossly oversized portion of the total money earned in a population

[travis2]

Whoops! I just re-read my post...and I said I was looking for a fight???

That SHOULD have said "I'm not looking for a fight..."

sorry, Jekka...:depressed

[easjer]

I ndidn't claim the Church ignored poverty. I said that they make sure that people have food and clothing. The Church does much good in America and elsewhere to make certain people have the necessities, but they don't go out of their way to provide much beyond the necessities.

Perhaps I could have phrased my response in a different way. I mean to say that I don't see the Church embracing militant communism anytime soon, not that they ignore the pleas of the poor.

[batman2883]

tell the priests to give up maintaining their mercedes benz for a year and they could afford to fix it

[Das Texan]

Parishes are pretty autonomous as far as administration and finances and things like that. There is no "central Church bank" or anything like that above the parish level. Offices above the parish are maintained through a "tax" (gee, sounds like our government) on the parishes by the diocese.

If the convent is actually attached to the parish, then for the most part its upkeep is indeed dependent on the resources the parish itself is able to give it.

Now, one thing the parish could do is make an appeal through the archdiocese for donations from other parishes. (This is not all that uncommon...half the Masses I attend seem to have a "second collection" for some specific purpose).

dont the archdioceses technically own all church land?

[Phenomanul]

Also, Jesus said, Blessed be the poor . . . so while the Church wants to make certain people have food and water, they are not likely to go about ending poverty when the center of their faith wasn't opposed to it.

The reference is spiritual... "Blessed are the poor [meek] for they shall inherit the Kingdom of God"

[Duff McCartney]

"Don't sit there and act like you ain't familiar with the building fund in your church. There ain't a black church in America that ain't got a building fund. We done had a building fund in my church since I was 4 years old, ain't put a doorknob on that church!!"

[smeagol]

Duff McCartney
The Sean Marks Dance




Position: Streaky Guard
Team: San Antonio Spurs
vBookie Cash: $0
Post Count: 7,654
Now I see why you don't pay your debts.

[Extra Stout]

they do cure the sick but they contribute to poverty that may lead to sickness by sucking up a grossly oversized portion of the total money earned in a population
There is a way around that, but you have to get rid of capitalism. Cuba has lots of doctors who work on the cheap.

[T Park]

tell the priests to give up maintaining their mercedes benz for a year and they could afford to fix it

Typical ignorant statement from you.

[T Park]

but you have to get rid of capitalism

Your talking to a liberal.

Liberalism=socialism


Of course if it was up guys like CBF and Ex, we would hae a system like Cuba.

Cause their heros like Ed Asner believe its heaven.

[Phenomanul]

Your talking to a liberal.

Liberalism=socialism


Of course if it was up guys like CBF and Ex, we would hae a system like Cuba.

Cause their heros like Ed Asner believe its heaven.

:lol :lol

Although I have to say that the problem is not with doctors getting overpaid (which I believe most do). The problem resides with the high prices of Insurance which are a direct result of people abusing the system and using the legal 'litigation' process to leech undeserved money....

I'm telling you all; once they admit that new lie detector test in court (the one invented at MIT that scans your brain while you respond to questions) people wouldn't be able to lie about false claims (liability, health etc...). That would lower the insurance rates and help reduce the cost of healthcare in general...
Alas... the problem is always a bit more complicated than it seems.

[Extra Stout]

Although I have to say that the problem is not with doctors getting overpaid (which I believe most do). The problem resides with the high prices of Insurance which are a direct result of people abusing the system and using the legal 'litigation' process to leech undeserved money....
CBF wasn't concerned so much with the high cost of healthcare as with the money doctors make.

Because of course if the salaries aren't high, there will be plenty of people willing to go to school full-time for 8-12 extra years and drown in debt.

And the high cost of healthcare is more complex than just runaway litigation. Our whole system is out of whack.

[Kip Fanatic]

I know of some churches that actually do help people. I know that every so often the church I go to help people at a certain apartment complex pay their rent.

[JoeChalupa]

Most churches have food banks and the St. Vincent de Paul Society helps people in need.

[The sone]

I believe most of the money is ear-marked for legal settlements.


and "pope bling"...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Your talking to a liberal.

Liberalism=socialism


Of course if it was up guys like CBF and Ex, we would hae a system like Cuba.

Cause their heros like Ed Asner believe its heaven.


I'm talking to a giant dofous.
Giving doctors a paycut = liberalism = socialism? Wise statements, preach on.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

CBF wasn't concerned so much with the high cost of healthcare as with the money doctors make.

Because of course if the salaries aren't high, there will be plenty of people willing to go to school full-time for 8-12 extra years and drown in debt.

And the high cost of healthcare is more complex than just runaway litigation. Our whole system is out of whack.


There can be programs, grants, scholarships to help people become what they want to become. I never bought all the doctors must make shitload of money bull shit unless they are a surgeon or something that requires supreme skill for hours and hours on end. But radiologists, anesthesiologist (sp) making all that money? It's fucking stupid, and people like TPark will call me liberal for thinking so, just to turn an honest statement into a partisan debate.

Number one argument by a republican with no realground to stand on "you're being liberal"

Lead on republicans, lead on.

[travis2]

And just what business is it of yours how much money someone makes in their profession?

And what do you know about what is required to be a radiologist or an anesthesiologist?

[Peter]

I, for one, am glad that there are a number of smart and diligent individuals who are willing to commit to a decade's worth of training with very little income in order to become physicians, surgeons, and specialists. I do disagree with some of the restrictions sought by medical professionals to restrict entry into their respective fields, but on the whole, resentment for the average level of compensation for MDs is ignorant.

[travis2]

I, for one, am glad that there are a number of smart and diligent individuals who are willing to commit to a decade's worth of training with very little income in order to become physicians, surgeons, and specialists. I do disagree with some of the restrictions sought by medical professionals to restrict entry into their respective fields, but on the whole, resentment for the average level of compensation for MDs is ignorant.

And that's a decade post-baccalaureate...

Docs earn their pay.

[Peter]

As for the activities of churches, I wonder how many here who feel compelled to condemn Catholicism have no problem with John Hagee and Joel Olsteen's "ministries", for example.

[travis2]

As for the activities of churches, I wonder how many here who feel compelled to condemn Catholicism have no problem with John Hagee and Joel Olsteen's "ministries", for example.

Defending my church by throwing darts at other churches is not my first choice.

But you make an excellent point.

[xrayzebra]

Your talking to a liberal.

Liberalism=socialism


Of course if it was up guys like CBF and Ex, we would hae a system like Cuba.

Cause their heros like Ed Asner believe its heaven.

Wonder why Ed hasn't given up his millions to for a piece of that Heaven,
maybe because he just wants it for you and me, no him.

[JoeChalupa]

I actually like Joel Olsteen's sermons.

[SA210]

Joel Osteen rocks.

[smeagol]

Joel Osteen rocks.
Who's Joel Osteen?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

And just what business is it of yours how much money someone makes in their profession?

And what do you know about what is required to be a radiologist or an anesthesiologist?



I know more than you're assuming I know, and theres no reason these people should be making so much god damn money. Just my opinion. I realize they have to study their asses off and go to med school, but that shouldn't matter.

[travis2]

I know more than you're assuming I know, and theres no reason these people should be making so much god damn money. Just my opinion. I realize they have to study their asses off and go to med school, but that shouldn't matter.

Well, your opinion and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It's none of your business what people make. You have no call to try to set wages for others.

And if you're bitching about what doctors make then you don't know as much as you think you know about what they go through.

[Marcus Bryant]

I know more than you're assuming I know, and theres no reason these people should be making so much god damn money. Just my opinion. I realize they have to study their asses off and go to med school, but that shouldn't matter.


It's not just that physicians have to "study their asses off", it's that they have to give up years when they could otherwise be doing something else (ie working in another profession) as well as the fact that they also are entering a profession in which they are called upon routinely to make life and death decisions for their patients.

A prospective MD could go to law school instead and be done with it in 3 years instead of the 6+ years it would take for them to go through med school plus training in residence.

If MDs didn't at least have the prospect of making "so much god damn money" at some point in the future, then you would have even fewer smart and disciplined individuals doing what is required to enter the profession. That is not a good prospect if you are interested in seeing a high quality of medical care being widely available in this country.

[bigzak25]

I don't get something. I know of a local convent for retired nuns here in San Antonio...Their heating system is a total basket case and there is no "cheap" way to fix it...I mean...it's beyond "rigging", it's dead.

They are giving me this story that it is a "poor" parish, they don't have any money, the poor old nuns are cold, etc...

Whats up with that? It's not like the Catholic Church doesn't have any money...

Don't they give a shit about these retired nuns?


why would a church hoard money. True Believers know to give what they have to those in need. We feel God will provide. :tu

[Marcus Bryant]

True believers like the Rev. Hagee, no doubt.

[bigzak25]

I don't know much about him.

But if you wish to judge christianity based on one individual, I suggest you go ahead and TRY to point your finger at Jesus Christ.

[Marcus Bryant]

How about you stop pointing your finger at everyone else and take a look at yourself? That's a key tenet of being a Christian.

But, I guess I'm not a Christian because you have presumed so.

[bigzak25]

How about you stop pointing your finger at everyone else and take a look at yourself? That's a key tenet of being a Christian.

But, I guess I'm not a Christian because you have presumed so.


did i point a finger at you? sorry. not intentional. maybe that's your own guilt.

maybe.

i only point in a mirror buddy.

[Marcus Bryant]

What you implied was clear. I carry no guilt for being Christian.

[bigzak25]

What you implied was clear. I carry no guilt for being Christian.


Good. Godbless you. As for my implication? To each their own. :tu

[Oh, Gee!!]

I love these "I'm a bigger Christian than you" fights.

[bigzak25]

I'm actually a smaller christian then everyone else. :tu

[tlongII]

I thought Zak was banned?

[Oh, Gee!!]

I thought Zak was banned?

His new album just dropped, so he's here promoting his new joint. Know what I'm sayin, yo?

[bigzak25]

It's not my fault i mastered the bang and the slang and the mental of niggas from compton, watts and southcentral...:lol (RIP Easy-E)

[bigzak25]

I thought Zak was banned?

Kori is very forgiving, even when i don't deserve it. :tu

[SA210]

Kori is very forgiving, even when i don't deserve it. :tu
Are you writing a song for that?

[1369]

I'm actually a smaller christian then everyone else. :tu

Shouldn't you change your user name then? :spin

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's not my fault i mastered the bang and the slang and the mental of niggas from compton, watts and southcentral...:lol (RIP Easy-E)


so....you really believe this shit you say?

[bigzak25]

:tu with all my heart.

[SA210]

Who's Joel Osteen?

http://www.joelosteen.com/site/PageServer

[smeagol]

http://www.joelosteen.com/site/PageServer
Thanks