What kind or Christian is W?

[smeagol]

Serious question.

I have read he is a "born again" Christian. Does this mean a Fundamentalist? The type that ask "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Savior?"

Is he in the same boat with guys who believe the Earth is 6000 years old?

Just asking.

[exstatic]

Yes, to all of the above.

[smeagol]

Yes, to all of the above.
You say this because you can't stand the man.

Wasn't he pushing for "Intelligent Design"? That's in contradiction with believing in Adam and Eve literally.

[Guru of Nothing]

Serious question.

I have read he is a "born again" Christian. Does this mean a Fundamentalist? The type that ask "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Savior?"

Is he in the same boat with guys who believe the Earth is 6000 years old?

Just asking.

Bush is a fundamentalist Christian, in an over-privileged frat boy sort of way.

[hendrix]

I guess that when you send people to kill others, you're a fundamentalist, right?

[SA210]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_bourneidentity.jpg

[bigzak25]

I am a born again christian. What questions do you have.

[SA210]

Bush is not a True christian at all.

[smeagol]

I guess that when you send people to kill others, you're a fundamentalist, right?
This is not what I was asking.

I know he is a Christian. I just wanted to know what denomination of Christianity he belongs to (I assume he is Protestant), if he believes in Sola Scriptura and if he believes in what the Bible says in a literal way.

[SA210]

Just because he says he is Christian doesn't make it so.

[smeagol]

I am a born again christian. What questions do you have.
I could ask you many questions, but I don't think you or me know much about theology to have an intelligent discussion.

[bigzak25]

I could ask you many questions, but I don't think you or me know much about theology to have an intelligent discussion.


we don't have to be scholars to have an intelligent discussion brother. :tu

[SA210]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_pope_bomb.jpg

[bigzak25]

Bush is not a True christian at all.


are you?

[SA210]

Yes. Thanks for asking.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_jesusad.jpg

[exstatic]

smeagol - why did you start this thread? I've seen at least three people try to answer your question, and you swat their answers back into their faces. Do you want feedback, or not?

As for intelligent design, that was never intended to be an end product. It is merely a tool for getting Creation into the classroom, and is therefore supported by MANY fundamentalists.

[bigzak25]

Yes. Thanks for asking.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_jesusad.jpg


you have alot of hate for a true christian. but Godbless you. :tu

[jochhejaam]

Here's a small take from Wilkpedia, if you need more info there's a book out about his faith (haven't read it).

Religious beliefs and practices
After meeting evangelist Billy Graham in 1985, Bush became much more involved in Christian belief and practice. [12] During this period, he left the Bush family's Episcopalian faith to join his wife's United Methodist Church, a denomination that in part represents a more socially conservative worldview (see United Methodist Church "Diversity Within Methodist Beliefs"). Bush is generally recognized as a born-again Christian.

In one of the televised debates in the 2000 Republican primaries, all participating candidates were asked to name their favorite philosopher. Bush responded by stating "Jesus Christ" — implying that Jesus was the philosopher who had "changed his life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Religious_beliefs_and_practices

[smeagol]

smeagol - why did you start this thread? I've seen at least three people try to answer your question, and you swat their answers back into their faces. Do you want feedback, or not?

As for intelligent design, that was never intended to be an end product. It is merely a tool for getting Creation into the classroom, and is therefore supported by MANY fundamentalists.
You are right. I appologize, some people have answered some of my questions.

The one I'm still hung on is does Bush take the Bible literally like some born again Christians do? I guess I'll do more research on United Methodists beliefs.

[SA210]

Not to get off subject in any way, but no matter how Bush took the bible, literal or not, he definitely doesn't follow it or live his life by it.
And what is this talk about Bushs' denomination that has a socially conservative worldview? What is a Christ-like view?

What country would Jesus bomb?

[smeagol]

we don't have to be scholars to have an intelligent discussion brother. :tu
True.

Let me start by asking what is your Christian denomination?

[exstatic]

What country would Jesus bomb?

Us.

[JoeChalupa]

I think Bush believes he is a good Christian and we all know how hard headed he can be once he makes a decision.

[SA210]

:lol yea

[xrayzebra]

I am wondering something. Are you cheering, Jesus would bomb this country or
that Bush is a good Christian, but is hard headed about it. From you postings
I would vote for bombing of this country. If your bunch has their way, you will
get it.

[smeagol]

we don't have to be scholars to have an intelligent discussion brother. :tu
As a born again Christian, I'm assuming your only source of religious truth is the Bible. And how to interpret the Bible is up to each individual, because once we accepted Jesus as our savior, the Holy Spirit guides us in this interpretation (of the Bible).

If this is true, how come there are so many Protestant denominations? Some believe in predestination, some don't. Some believe its wrong to drink, some don't. Some believe you are saved by Faith alone, some believe you need to through works into the equation.

If the Holy Spirit is guiding us to interpret the Bible (and therefore there is no need for and "outside" authority to help us understand that complex and sometimes contradicting book known as the Holy Bible) Protestantisim should be much more homogenious than what it actually is.

What's your take?

[SA210]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_halo.jpg

[smeagol]

I am a born again christian. What questions do you have.
Another question related to the previous one. As a born again Christian I believe you are a proponent of Sola Scriptura. Given that Sola Scriptura is not supported by the Bible, what's your taking on this issue?

Thanks

[smeagol]

Bush is not a True christian at all.
You say this because of what he believes in or because of his actions?

[SA210]

You see, if he does believe what is in the bible, he's definitely not following it, nor cares about the consequences for not doing so. His actions, in no way show, but indeed are opposite to someone who is trying to be CHRIST-like. George Bush is not a Christian. He professes to be a believer, but his words and actions are not those of a true Christian. Because he says he is, doesn't make it so. There are alot of things he says, but they are not true.

[smeagol]

As for intelligent design, that was never intended to be an end product. It is merely a tool for getting Creation into the classroom, and is therefore supported by MANY fundamentalists.
Intelligent design is not compatible with Creationism in its purest form.

[smeagol]

You see, if he does believe what is in the bible, he's definitely not following it, nor cares about the consequences for not doing so. His actions, in no way show, but indeed are opposite to someone who is trying to be CHRIST-like. George Bush is not a Christian. He professes to be a believer, but his words and actions are not those of a true Christian. Because he says he is, doesn't make it so. There are alot of things he says, but they are not true.
Well many other people who call themselves Christians would disagree with you. I for starters believe Bush is a Christian (my definition of Christian is very broad) even though I don't agree with many of what he says and does.

[jochhejaam]

You see, if he does believe what is in the bible, he's definitely not following it, nor cares about the consequences for not doing so. His actions, in no way show, but indeed are opposite to someone who is trying to be CHRIST-like. George Bush is not a Christian. He professes to be a believer, but his words and actions are not those of a true Christian. Because he says he is, doesn't make it so. There are alot of things he says, but they are not true.
True enough, saying you're a Christian doesn't mean you are nor does your insistence that he isn't a Christian mean he isn't...unless you're God...?

[2centsworth]

You see, if he does believe what is in the bible, he's definitely not following it, nor cares about the consequences for not doing so. His actions, in no way show, but indeed are opposite to someone who is trying to be CHRIST-like. George Bush is not a Christian. He professes to be a believer, but his words and actions are not those of a true Christian. Because he says he is, doesn't make it so. There are alot of things he says, but they are not true.all those words and to say nothing. stick to posting pictures, they're cute.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

If Dumbya is a Christian then I'm a republican.

[Hook Dem]

If Dumbya is a Christian then I'm a republican.
Here ya go Johnny................. :elephant :lol

[SA210]

all those words and to say nothing. stick to posting pictures, they're cute.
Oh, I said it plain and clearly. Bush isn't a true Christian. As I asked earlier.
What country would Jesus bomb?

[SA210]

True enough, saying you're a Christian doesn't mean you are nor does your insistence that he isn't a Christian mean he isn't...unless you're God...?

I don't need to be God to know someone is far from Christ-like.

[SA210]

Well many other people who call themselves Christians would disagree with you. I for starters believe Bush is a Christian (my definition of Christian is very broad) even though I don't agree with many of what he says and does.
So, I'm guessing that there are other ways to be a Christian that differ from the bible?

[SA210]

stick to posting pictures, they're cute.
They are so much alike.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_lord.jpg

[SA210]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_pope_bomb.jpg
The ultimate Christian.

[jochhejaam]

I don't need to be God to know someone is far from Christ-like.
Verse; "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God", that doesn't at all imply that they aren't Christians.

I'll say it one more time then I'll leave it alone, you are not qualified to state that George Bush is not a Christian.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'll say it one more time then I'll leave it alone, you are not qualified to state that George Bush is not a Christian.

There's a disconnect here -- some on the right feel perfectly willing to make the same sorts of judgments about those who oppose them politically. Why is it that there is no question of qualification when those pronouncements are made? Why is there a difference?

[SA210]

Jochhejaam,

You are qualified to say he Is? This is ridiculous, because WE are ALL sinners. You, me and everyone else. He is someone who claims to be Christian and makes decisions based on what supposedly God wants him to do and then does the opposite of what's actually "biblical". If You know the bible, you would know that God detests such a thing, especially if the person willingly does wrong when he knows it a detestable thing to God.

Verse: Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

Verse: YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.

[jochhejaam]

Jochhejaam,

[QUOTE]You are qualified to say he Is?
If you would pay as much attention to what is posted instead of disproportionately focusing on what it is you want to say you would have realized that I didn't say he was a Christian, I merely stated the he said he was. (I do believe he is, although imperfect as all Christians are)




This is ridiculous, because WE are ALL sinners. You, me and everyone else. He is someone who claims to be Christian and makes decisions based on what supposedly God wants him to do and then does the opposite of what's actually "biblical". If You know the bible, you would know that God detests such a thing, especially if the person willingly does wrong when he knows it a detestable thing to God.
And of course you can provide the proof that he willingly and knowingly did wrong? (hint: you'd need a confession from him and even that doesn't disqualify him from being a Christian; the forgiveness of God factor), or you'd have to be able to examine his heart which is another thing you are not qualified to do.

[SA210]

If you would pay as much attention to what is posted instead of disproportionately focusing on what it is you want to say you would have realized that I didn't say he was a Christian, I merely stated the he said he was. (I do believe he is, although imperfect as all Christians are)




And of course you can provide the proof that he willingly and knowingly did wrong? (hint: you'd need a confession from him and even that doesn't disqualify him from being a Christian; the forgiveness of God factor), or you'd have to be able to examine his heart which is another thing you are not qualified to do.

Examine his heart? Or examine his actions? Maybe his actions show his heart. Maybe u didn't say he Is a Christian but U believe he is despite his evil actions. He knowingly did wrong.

What kind of man was Jesus Christ? First and foremost he was a peace maker. Is George Bush a peace maker? No. Bush has the blood of thousands of innocent people on his hands. Bush couldn't wait for the weapons of mass destruction to rain down on the innocent roofs of the Iraqi people.

Very Christ-like.

[jochhejaam]

There's a disconnect here -- some on the right feel perfectly willing to make the same sorts of judgments about those who oppose them politically. Why is it that there is no question of qualification when those pronouncements are made? Why is there a difference?
Could you be a little more vague with your questions FWD? :lol

Was your post rhetorical? If not maybe you can direct in a more personal way to those "some" on the right and be more specific about the "sorts of judgements" they are making and list one or more of "those pronouncements".

[smeagol]

Verse: Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

Verse: YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.
This goes against one of the premises of Protestantism. Are these Verses exact quotes. Where can I find them?

[SA210]

in the bible.

[xrayzebra]

This goes against one of the premises of Protestantism. Are these Verses exact quotes. Where can I find them?

Talk to Crazy. He the most qualified to talk to anyone on this subject, at
least on this board. He is on nearly everyday, just make a post for him.
I promise he will answer you.

[SA210]

And I promise u will spin for him.

[xrayzebra]

And I promise u will spin for him.

For Crazy, I don't have to. He is a minister. Man get out of your
bottle and watch the President tonight. Either that or take another one
of those little pills and chill out. You have a problem.

[SA210]

No, u spin for Bush all the time. You have a problem because you support a president that makes ppl suffer.

[Hook Dem]

Did too! Did not! Did too! Did not! :lol Get over yourselves people! :lol

[SA210]

u first. :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

Could you be a little more vague with your questions FWD? :lol

Was your post rhetorical? If not maybe you can direct in a more personal way to those "some" on the right and be more specific about the "sorts of judgements" they are making and list one or more of "those pronouncements".

Okay -- there are those on the political right (including some in this forum) who, for example, label those who promote church/state separation as hostile to religion or even non-Christian. There's no apparent concern for the qualifications of those people to make those judgments, but when someone wonders aloud about the President's commitment to the tenets of Christian faith, there's a hue and cry about qualifications to make that judgment. Those two things can't be squared to me, other than as a political point, which has little or nothing to do with religion at all.

[SA210]

^^^ :tu

[NameDropper]

Rumor has it those on the right like people to do as they say not as they do.

To the right if you speak out against the war you hate your Country and the troops.
To the right if you support a woman's right to choose you are a murderer and support death over life.
To the right if you speak about seperation of Church and State you a non-Christian and a non-believing devil worshiper.
To the right if you are for civil liberties you support the terrorists.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=FromWayDowntown]Okay -- there are those on the political right (including some in this forum) who, for example, label those who promote church/state separation as hostile to religion or even non-Christian. There's no apparent concern for the qualifications of those people to make those judgments,but when someone wonders aloud about the President's commitment to the tenets of Christian faith, there's a hue and cry about qualifications to make that judgment. Those two things can't be squared to me, other than as a political point, which has little or nothing to do with religion at all.

I honestly don't know of anyone or of any post where someone was told or someone stated that they were not a Christian because of their stance on the Church/State separation issue.
You're free to defend SA210 but his outright statement that the President "is not a true Christian" goes far beyond someone wondering aloud about the President's commitment to the tenets of Christianity. It doesn't take much in the way of qualifications to wonder but the qualifications that would allow one to know calls for far more than a hateful biased opinion

If I were a jurist that had just considered the evidence in a trial and I could only state that I wonder if the accused is guilty as opposed to flat out stating that I know the accused is guilty would it be still be okay for me to come up with a finding of guilty?

[jochhejaam]

Rumor has it those on the right like people to do as they say not as they do.

To the right if you speak out against the war you hate your Country and the troops.
To the right if you support a woman's right to choose you are a murderer and support death over life.
To the right if you speak about seperation of Church and State you a non-Christian and a non-believing devil worshiper.
To the right if you are for civil liberties you support the terrorists.
Now there's a refreshing view as opposed to all of the partisan opinions we get in here. :lol

[SA210]

[QUOTE]someone wondering aloud about the President's commitment to the tenets of Christianity.
So Bush has a commitment to the tenets of Christianity? What Bible do you go by? I'd really like to know what Bible condones Bushs' actions. Please let me know. Show me the bible that Bush and you go by. Because no matter what You say, the meaning and word "Christian" stands for something.

What does being a Christian mean? Seriously. Just because You belong to denomination? Stop trying to be political about it and tell me what a "Christian" is. A derivative of Christ. Yes or No? To be and to try to be Christ-like. Bush is nothing of the sort. Put your political spin on it all you want. I still want to see the bible that condones a "Christian" to do Bushs' deeds.

[SA210]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_furiousgeorge2.jpg

[smeagol]

in the bible.
Where in the Bible?

[FromWayDowntown]

I honestly don't know of anyone or of any post where someone was told or someone stated that they were not a Christian because of their stance on the Church/State separation issue.
You're free to defend SA210 but his outright statement that the President "is not a true Christian" goes far beyond someone wondering aloud about the President's commitment to the tenets of Christianity. It doesn't take much in the way of qualifications to wonder but the qualifications that would allow one to know calls for far more than a hateful biased opinion

I know of several such posts and have always resented the notion that my faith could be so easily questioned by people who, in essence, are violating a basic tenet of the Christian faith by standing in judgment of me. They don't know me -- they know that I think the state should stay out of religion and should not endorse the Christian faith over others, or that I believe a woman has a right to decide how her body will be used -- but that doesn't stop them from deciding that I am not a Christian, a view that is completely false.

I'm not defending SA210 at all; but I am asking for consistency. If it's improper for people to question the President's faith, it's equally improper for anyone to question my faith or the faith of others who believe as I do.


If I were a jurist that had just considered the evidence in a trial and I could only state that I wonder if the accused is guilty as opposed to flat out stating that I know the accused is guilty would it be still be okay for me to come up with a finding of guilty?

It certainly would be improper -- just as it is improper when applied to conclude that political liberals are anti-religion or non-Christians, or whatever.

[SA210]

James 2:17,24

[Dos]

JFK was a catholic.. and a JFK was a womanizer and got the ball rolling in vietnam and had a great bay of pigs strategy... jimmy carter was a born again christian.. and oh well we all know what he did.. turned a blind eye to the dirty wars of south america.. pulled his support for the shah of iran.. ushering in radical islam in the middle east... encouraged saddam to go to war with iran.. clinton and gore were both southern baptist and had no problems dropping bombs on kosovo... and clinton had no problem with adultrey... yeah .. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... even ole jesse jackson... fathering a child out of adultrey as well....

[smeagol]

James 2:17,24
Thanks

[smeagol]

JFK was a catholic.. and a JFK was a womanizer and got the ball rolling in vietnam and had a great bay of pigs strategy... jimmy carter was a born again christian.. and oh well we all know what he did.. turned a blind eye to the dirty wars of south america.. pulled his support for the shah of iran.. ushering in radical islam in the middle east... encouraged saddam to go to war with iran.. clinton and gore were both southern baptist and had no problems dropping bombs on kosovo... and clinton had no problem with adultrey... yeah .. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... even ole jesse jackson... fathering a child out of adultrey as well....
You have a good point

[jochhejaam]

I know of several such posts and have always resented the notion that my faith could be so easily questioned by people who, in essence, are violating a basic tenet of the Christian faith by standing in judgment of me. They don't know me -- they know that I think the state should stay out of religion and should not endorse the Christian faith over others, or that I believe a woman has a right to decide how her body will be used -- but that doesn't stop them from deciding that I am not a Christian, a view that is completely false.

I'm not defending SA210 at all; but I am asking for consistency. If it's improper for people to question the President's faith, it's equally improper for anyone to question my faith or the faith of others who believe as I do.

It certainly would be improper -- just as it is improper when applied to conclude that political liberals are anti-religion or non-Christians, or whatever.
There's nothing wrong with asking for consistency (doesn't mean you'll get it).
Not sure why you chose to bring it up in response to one of my posts though or are you suggesting that I've been inconsistent in this area?

[jochhejaam]

So Bush has a commitment to the tenets of Christianity? What Bible do you go by? I'd really like to know what Bible condones Bushs' actions. Please let me know. Show me the bible that Bush and you go by. Because no matter what You say, the meaning and word "Christian" stands for something.

Again you're clueless when it comes to argueing because I never said that, FWD brought it up and I was quoting him to make a point. Once again your rambling thoughts are disconnected to the point where they have no credibility or relevance.

I would ask you to go back and review the dialogue but I think you're probably honestly doing the best you can with what you have.

[SA210]

Again you're clueless when it comes to argueing because I never said that, FWD brought it up and I was quoting him to make a point. Once again your rambling thoughts are disconnected to the point where they have no credibility or relevance.

I would ask you to go back and review the dialogue but I think you're probably honestly doing the best you can with what you have.

Bush is the one with NO credibility. Your spinning and words of nothing aren't going to change that. Whether You say he is Christian or You say U believe he is Christian doesn't change the fact that I am speaking of the bible. I am speaking of the teachings of Jesus Christ. So speak the blind Bush love nonsense that u have to tell yourself.

I am speaking of what is actually "biblical". What does it mean to be Christ-like? What is a Christian, not as different religions or how You wanna see it. What is Christ-like according to Christ himself and the Bible? Does that equal to Bush. NO. That is plain and simple.

So, go on a spin and play with words on who said what and how I said it. Doesn't change the facts.

[gtownspur]

SA210, the Incarnate Tool of NbaDan, why don't you stick to awnsering xray's response and stop spinning yourself.

[jochhejaam]

I know of several such posts and have always resented the notion that my faith could be so easily questioned by people who, in essence, are violating a basic tenet of the Christian faith by standing in judgment of me. They don't know me -- they know that I think the state should stay out of religion and should not endorse the Christian faith over others, or that I believe a woman has a right to decide how her body will be used -- but that doesn't stop them from deciding that I am not a Christian, a view that is completely false.

. If it's improper for people to question the President's faith, it's equally improper for anyone to question my faith or the faith of others who believe as I do.

It certainly would be improper -- just as it is improper when applied to conclude that political liberals are anti-religion or non-Christians, or whatever.
I personally wouldn't question your Christianity. I don't know much about your religious beliefs but I have read many of your opinions and I haven't seen anything in your posts that would lead me to believe that you are not a Christian especially in light of the fact that you say you are.

[exstatic]

JFK was a catholic.. and a JFK was a womanizer and got the ball rolling in vietnam and had a great bay of pigs strategy... jimmy carter was a born again christian.. and oh well we all know what he did.. turned a blind eye to the dirty wars of south america.. (what?)pulled his support for the shah of iran.. (Yes, and he was right to do so. TSoI made Saddam look like a fucking boyscout) ushering in radical islam in the middle east... (Newsflash: it was there already) encouraged saddam to go to war with iran..(Actually, that was Reagan) clinton and gore were both southern baptist and had no problems dropping bombs on kosovo... and clinton had no problem with adultrey... yeah .. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God... even ole jesse jackson... fathering a child out of adultrey as well....

[Dos]

world history 101...

the State Department's declassification of more than 4,600 previously secret U.S. documents on human rights violations under the 1976-83 military dictatorship in Argentina. (I wonder who was president for 4 years during the dirty war in argentina)

The main conflict between human rights and U.S. interests came in Carter's dealings with the Shah of Iran. The Shah had been a strong ally of America since World War II, and was one of the "twin pillars" upon which U.S. strategic policy in the Middle East was built. However, his rule was strongly autocratic. Though Carter praised the Shah as a wise and valuable leader, when a popular uprising against the monarchy broke out in Iran, the Carter administration did not intervene.

The Shah was deposed and exiled. Many have since connected the Shah's dwindling U.S. support as a leading cause of his quick overthrow. Carter was initially prepared to recognize the revolutionary government of the monarch's successor, but his efforts proved futile.

saddam and Jimmy..

For Americans 9/11 is a day of mourning, but for Iranians it should be 9/22! That's the date when Saddam's Iraq invaded Iran in 1980, leading to an 8-year war causing over 1 million deaths. It is one of the greatest human tragedies in recorded history. If America is so bent out of shape with 3000+ deaths on 9/11, and now over 1000 American military deaths in Iraq... How should Iranians feel?

New information, coming out of events related to the recent invasion of Iraq suggest that Saddam did not act alone. It was kicked off on August 10th 1980, when Saddam Hussein was invited to his first state visit to Saudi Arabia, the first for any Iraqi President. This was a historic meeting. Prince Fahd had been asked to convey a private message of support for an invasion of Iran by Saddam from President Carter.

Think back to the summer of 1980. Jimmy Carter was running for reelection as President. The Mullah's in Iran had turned against him holding Americans hostages at the US embassy in Tehran (even though he had brought about the Shah's demise). Carter had also been secretly briefed about private meetings between the Mullah's and the Republican Party... to hold the hostages until after November elections... to humiliate him and engineer his loss. The Mullah's had betrayed him.

With his back against the wall, Carter pushed for a quick decisive invasion of Iran by Saddam Hussein... hoping for a quick demise of the newly installed Islamic regime. The Saudi's and other allied Arab states had been asked to assist. And assist they did...

Carter currently teaches a Sunday School class at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, Georgia. He is also an accomplished amateur woodworker and has occasionally been featured in the pages of Fine Wood Working magazine, which is published by Taunton Press.

[bigzak25]

If Dumbya is a Christian then I'm a republican.

you may not support the republicans, but the Roles HAVE REVERSED.

The traditionally conservative party is the one liberating.

The traditionally liberal party is the one that wants to be conservative.

Ironic huh. :lol

So I guess Bush is Christian after all...:lol

[SA210]

^^^ Bush is Christ-like? Explain to me. Please. How so?

[FromWayDowntown]

There's nothing wrong with asking for consistency (doesn't mean you'll get it).
Not sure why you chose to bring it up in response to one of my posts though or are you suggesting that I've been inconsistent in this area?

My response to your post was based on your assertion that SA210 had no qualifications to "know" the President's faith. Given that direct statement, which presented an argument that should be equally applicable to both sides, I decided to respond with a request for consistency. Nothing personal about it, joch.

[CharlieMac]

Rumor has it those on the right like people to do as they say not as they do.

To the right if you speak out against the war you hate your Country and the troops.
To the right if you support a woman's right to choose you are a murderer and support death over life.
To the right if you speak about seperation of Church and State you a non-Christian and a non-believing devil worshiper.
To the right if you are for civil liberties you support the terrorists.

Rumor has it, this mentality is working it's way into comedy sketches, even after it stopped being funny well over a year ago. I have never seen anyone say that here, and I've never said that myself here. That's such a shitty way of working yourself into a conversation.

People can speak out against the war, I don't give a shit.

I'm pro-choice myself.

I don't give a shit if people worship the devil or David Hasselhoff.

You support the terrorist if you fund them or assist them in any way. There are people out there that want nothing monitored, ever.

Not everyone on the left is in line with every position on the Dem's agenda. It seems that some people on the left don't realize this works both ways. This is why you people lost the election, even when it was seemingly handed to you.

[bigzak25]

^^^ Bush is Christ-like? Explain to me. Please. How so?


i said Christian, as in a follower of Jesus. Christ-like? It's something we all aspire to be, but we will all fall short of the Glory of God. We are all guilty. We are all condemned...unless....


I think it was God's will that moses lead his people out of egypt.

Imagine an American Superpower back in the day, invading egypt, and taking out the oppressors so that the Jews could be free.

That would be pretty cool huh.

[SA210]

^^^ Bush follows Jesus? Really? In what way? Explain, please.

[bigzak25]

well, Bush is the one taking all the whipping from you guys and still showing you love as his people saying how he hears your protests, and how he does not expect you to agree with all his decisions, but that he'll take the heat because he feels it's what's best for our country. I respect that.

and he's the one that chooses to fight for freedom so that we can all be saved.

you can make your own comparisons now. :tu

[SA210]

All he did Zak was make a series of speeches because his numbers were at an all-time low. He never wanted to take resposibiltiy for his actions or inactions. He saw that the public was noticing more now than ever, so he made dumb speeches NOT in the name of "Jesus", but for the sake of his poll numbers, he has spewed more lies to better help his numbers.

Again, Not because he follows Jesus, because his numbers. Doesn't make his lies true.

[bigzak25]

Yes, Yes, because of his poll numbers, because we all KNOW Bush is running for reelection in 08. C'mon.

and if you guys put your faith in Poll numbers, then at least i know now what you are looking at for your opinions.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Yes, Yes, because of his poll numbers, because we all KNOW Bush is running for reelection in 08. C'mon.

^^doesn't get it^^

[SA210]

Then why do Repubs point out that his numbers are up like 3 or 4 points? :lol:lmao

[bigzak25]

cuz they are idiots too?

i don't care about the polls unless an election is coming up.

Bush has weathered the Storm, and is prevailing in the face of ALL ADVERSITY.

Your hate has just begun. You'll hate him more than ever when you find out he was RIGHT. :tu

[SA210]

I hate his actions. They are not very Christ-like.

[bigzak25]

Who are you to judge? :lmao

[SA210]

:lmao that was my point about you :lmao

[SA210]

But on a serious note,

are you saying that Bush' actions are that of what "God intended" a Christian to be?

[bigzak25]

round and round we go. :lol

[SA210]

That's what happens when Repubs spin.

[bigzak25]

But on a serious note,

are you saying that Bush' actions are that of what "God intended" a Christian to be?


I cannot speak for God.

But I do KNOW that Thou Shalt Not Kill.

If there was Another Way? Another way to eliminate the threat? I'd be all for it.

Saddam was pure evil. Osama, the same. They are imprisoned and in hiding. I can't argue with results.

[bigzak25]

That's what happens when Repubs spin.


hold on now 210, it always takes 2 to tango. it's all about point of view. from where you standing? you think the sun revolves around the earth. i see things different. :tu

[Dos]

so to be christian president... you have to be perfect.. is that what you are saying... well when you find a perfect christian president or any politician of any religous strip or athiest... let me know .. ok!!!

[SA210]

^^^, not what i said, but since u mention it, well it ain't Bush, that's for sure.

[bigzak25]

nobody is perfect. at least our President has resolve.

Kerry would have pulled out of Iraq, left it a mess. And then blamed Bush anyway.

GW is getting the Job Done. Like his father didn't do, unfortunately.

[SA210]

I cannot speak for God.

But I do KNOW that Thou Shalt Not Kill.

If there was Another Way? Another way to eliminate the threat? I'd be all for it.

Saddam was pure evil. Osama, the same. They are imprisoned and in hiding. I can't argue with results.

You make so much sense. Interesting Bible you must learn from, that says u can compromise when You see fit.

[SA210]

GW is getting the Job Done.
In Christ's name?

[Dos]

then who is SA210... who is best politician ever in your mind.... maybe the passage should say... all politicians have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...

[Crookshanks]

The level of hatred on his board for President Bush is appalling. Nothing he could do or say would change your feelings because your hatred is on a much deeper level.

Many of you remind me of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. They criticized Jesus because he healed on the Sabbath, did not condemn the woman caught in adultery and socialized with sinners. In other words, Jesus did not fit their idea of "christianity". And then, when they couldn't silence him, they had him condemned to death because he dared to state that he was God. The Pharisees thought they had all the answers and that they alone could determine what was and wasn't proper.

However, Jesus had the final word when he rose from the dead and he will have the ultimate final word when he returns to set up his earthly kingdom and judge the world. The bible says "at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord."

As time goes on, I believe George W. Bush will be shown to have been right and history will regard him as a great president.

[SA210]

My point is that Bush claims to be Christian. Plain and simple. So, he claims to be Christian. What is a Christian? As I have asked before, not according to different religions or what You want it to mean, but what is a "Christian" according to Christ himself? What is actually Biblical about being a Christian? Does that equal to Bush? No.

[Crookshanks]

Okay, since you're so knowledgeable - what does a christian "according to the bible" really mean. Since you're so sure George W. Bush isn't one - what or who is?

[bigzak25]

You make so much sense. Interesting Bible you must learn from, that says u can compromise when You see fit.


well, funny enough, i seem to remember a little story about noah and a flood that took out everyone.

God makes the rules, i don't.

we have free will. we are imperfect. mistakes will be made.

Eliminating those that would Kill without regard for decency or humanity in the name of 'THEIR God' is not desired, but if it's them or us? And we're fighting for freedom and trying to defeat oppression? I KNOW which side i'm on. Do you?

[SA210]

Spin. That's what i am asking you.

Tell me what makes him a "Christian".

[bigzak25]

Clinton got blown in the oval office. how christian.

JFK screwed around on his wife.

Reagan probobaly had an under the table deal to release hostages after he was in office....

are you seeing a pattern...NO BODY IS PERFECT. Just cuz one claims to Follow Jesus, doesn't mean they will not fall....make mistakes. Do they pick themselves up and continue on the path? True Christians do. :tu

[bigzak25]

Spin. That's what i am asking you.

Tell me what makes him a "Christian".

who are you?

the burden of proof is on you!

you claim to be a true christian.


Tell us why YOU are a True Christian.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The level of hatred on his board for President Bush is appalling. Nothing he could do or say would change your feelings because your hatred is on a much deeper level.

Many of you remind me of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. They criticized Jesus because he healed on the Sabbath, did not condemn the woman caught in adultery and socialized with sinners. In other words, Jesus did not fit their idea of "christianity". And then, when they couldn't silence him, they had him condemned to death because he dared to state that he was God. The Pharisees thought they had all the answers and that they alone could determine what was and wasn't proper.

However, Jesus had the final word when he rose from the dead and he will have the ultimate final word when he returns to set up his earthly kingdom and judge the world. The bible says "at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord."

As time goes on, I believe George W. Bush will be shown to have been right and history will regard him as a great president.

don't compare Bush to Jesus

[SA210]

well, funny enough, i seem to remember a little story about noah and a flood that took out everyone.

God makes the rules, i don't.

we have free will. we are imperfect. mistakes will be made.

Eliminating those that would Kill without regard for decency or humanity in the name of 'THEIR God' is not desired, but if it's them or us? And we're fighting for freedom and trying to defeat oppression? I KNOW which side i'm on. Do you?
Well, the reasonings for going to war are debateable. half or more than half this country is against it. So your reasoning for going to war doesn't hold much water.

Neither does the bible say basically, "well, in That case, Go ahead"

[SA210]

who are you?

the burden of proof is on you!

you claim to be a true christian.


Tell us why YOU are a True Christian.
Spin again. The question was, what makes Bush a REAL Christian from the beginning. Why are yall having such a hard time answering it?

[bigzak25]

the bible DOES say that those that live by the sword will die by it.

as far as i'm concerned, THEY drew 1st blood.

and he wasn't comparing Bush to Jesus as much as he was comparing YOU to the pharisees. You gusy can't see the truth when it's right in front of your face.

You are blinded by hate and fear.

[bigzak25]

Spin again. The question was, what makes Bush a REAL Christian from the beginning. Why are yall having such a hard time answering it?

I cannot Judge who is and isn't a REAL Christian. I am NOT God.

God has that Judgement.

But I do believe Bush when he says he is a follower as I am.

[SA210]

Ok, fine.

But what leads you to believe that Bush is telling the truth that he follows Jesus Christ? The Jesus from the bible of course.

[bigzak25]

Cuz he says so. Cuz he has resolve in the face of all criticism. Because he is doing what he feels is in the best interests of our country. Cuz he is driven by the desire to rid the world of those that would kill at any cost, indiscriminantly. Bush is not Jesus, and Bush is NOT perfect, okay. But damn if i don't respect the man for doing what he thinks is the right thing. Freedom. Freewill. Jesus would want that. :tu

[SA210]

Cuz he says so. Cuz he has resolve in the face of all criticism. Because he is doing what he feels is in the best interests of our country. Cuz he is driven by the desire to rid the world of those that would kill at any cost, indiscriminantly. Bush is not Jesus, and Bush is NOT perfect, okay. But damn if i don't respect the man for doing what he thinks is the right thing. Freedom. Freewill. Jesus would want that. :tu
Racists think they are doing the right thing. That doesn't justify their actions. He's doing the wrong thing. Of course no one is perfect. He's doing what's in His best interest. That doesn't make him a follower of Christ.

[bigzak25]

Racists? You mean people that hate, albeit discriminantly?

The terrorists are Racists. They use the term Infadels instead of other slurs.

C'mon man, I know you see this.

And yeah, it's in Bush's BEST INTEREST to Make Sure American is Protected at all costs....it's also his JOB.

[SA210]

Stop getting away from the question that was asked.

[bigzak25]

your the one that brought out the racist card brother. :lol

[SA210]

I was giving an example, and also, like I said, stop getting away from the question asked.

[bigzak25]

I've answered you questions numerous times. It's not my fault you have comprehension issues.

[SA210]

You answered my question based on Your Compromising with Your wants to Christs teachings. That's all You did.

[bigzak25]

You answered my question based on Your Compromising with Your wants to Christs teachings. That's all You did.


I want Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward men.

I want to dispose of those that stand in the way of the above.

[SA210]

I want Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward men.

Bombing for Peace is like Having Sex for Virginity.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/antiwar_peace.jpg

[bigzak25]

210, what does your father think? if you don't mind me asking.

[Phil E.Buster]

I want Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward men.


What about women?

[E20]

I met these two mormons the other day, they were on bikes and I was playing basketball and they kept on trying to convert me. I was trying really hard not too laugh. I wonder if Bush is mormon?

[SA210]

210, what does your father think? if you don't mind me asking.
The "only" father i have is God. From his teachings, I understand that he is against actions and inactions that Bush practices. In fact they are detestable to God. God loves everyone, but some actions he detests.

[gtownspur]

210, what does your father think? if you don't mind me asking.

Why do you have to bring the daddy into it. I thought SA210's father was cool with SA210 wanting to be called his daughter! :lol

[bigzak25]

The "only" father i have is God. From his teachings, I understand that he is against actions and inactions that Bush practices. In fact they are detestable to God. God loves everyone, but some actions he detests.

I'm sorry to hear that. I will tell you that the lack of a father figure in my life led me to God through Jesus. Do you think God loved what Saddam was doing to the Iraqi people?

[bigzak25]

Why do you have to bring the daddy into it. I thought SA210's father was cool with SA210 wanting to be called his daughter! :lol


back off chump. i'll deal with you later. :makemyday

[bigzak25]

What about women?


Them too Buster. :tu

[gtownspur]

The "only" father i have is God. From his teachings, I understand that he is against actions and inactions that Bush practices. In fact they are detestable to God. God loves everyone, but some actions he detests.


You're weak. SOrry, but aside from Jesus's personal instructions on christian living, the bible as a whole from exodus to the book of romans, and last jude and revelations allows for the ruler to use the sword. Bush's job is to be president, not your methodist grandmother.

[nkdlunch]

Bush worships money and power.

[smeagol]

Zak I posed some questions (which seem to be off topic after your discussion with SA210).

Care to answer them?

[SA210]

I'm sorry to hear that. I will tell you that the lack of a father figure in my life led me to God through Jesus. Do you think God loved what Saddam was doing to the Iraqi people?
Agree with Saddam? No , I do not. But I don't agree with Bush actions as being Christian either, that's all.

[SA210]

Why do you have to bring the daddy into it. I thought SA210's father was cool with SA210 wanting to be called his daughter! :lol
Coming from someone who says "the homeless don't get any kind government assistance at all" :lmao

[SA210]

You're weak. SOrry, but aside from Jesus's personal instructions on christian living, the bible as a whole from exodus to the book of romans, and last jude and revelations allows for the ruler to use the sword. Bush's job is to be president, not your methodist grandmother.

Gtown talking about the bible. :lmao

[gtownspur]

WHat a moron.

YOu knew you got owned on this issue.

Too bad your sunday school knowledge won't help you.

[SA210]

WHat a moron.

YOu knew you got owned on this issue.

Too bad your sunday school knowledge won't help you.
Commandments say "Do Not kill"

"Do Not Lie"

And Jesus helped the poor.

Who got owned? Too bad your sunday school knowledge won't help you. :lol

[gtownspur]

:lmao, why do I waste my time with somebody who can't knowledgebaly deduct an interpretation of the bible. First of all, the commandments say thou shalt not "murder" in the hebrew dialect, not kill. God commanded his people to kill others and wage war in that same old testament. Obviously a ten year old would of concluded that national pacifism is not the message of the ten commandments.

Second, thou shalt not lie.

If you think you have'nt lied, then you are the real joke and bogus christian.

NExt time, don't come in here with your Hallmark "Baby jesus" and "lambs" bible verse knowledge.

Bring the real stuff.

[bigzak25]

Bush worships money and power.


what do you worship?

[bigzak25]

Zak I posed some questions (which seem to be off topic after your discussion with SA210).

Care to answer them?


let me look for your questions and i'll offer my humble opinions. that's all i can do. :tu

[gtownspur]

Last i heard, bush gave more in taxes to the govt than john kerry and John kerry is the more wealthier one.

[SA210]

.God commanded his people to kill others and wage war in that same old testament. Obviously a ten year old would of concluded that national pacifism is not the message of the ten commandments.

Second, thou shalt not lie.
If you think you have'nt lied, then you are the real joke and bogus christian.
Bring the real stuff.
The commandment stands, spin or not. Plus He LIED to KILL. Now that's really bad.

[SA210]

Last i heard, bush gave more in taxes to the govt than john kerry and John kerry is the more wealthier one.
:lmao where di u hear that? on the interNets?

[xrayzebra]

Gtown talking about the bible. :lmao

You talking. :lol Take a new poll did you? Or another vision popped into
the small mind of yours.

[SA210]

I was suprised. Gtown is so hateful. Well talking about the bible doesn't actually mean u follow it. And i'm not the prophet. Zak says he is though.

[gtownspur]

YOur such a :baby.

YOu got owned, now you're dodging and now you resorted for the millionth time to the "hate" card.

NEXT!

[xrayzebra]

I was suprised. Gtown is so hateful. Well talking about the bible doesn't actually mean u follow it. And i'm not the prophet. Zak says he is though.

I just want to know one thing. Your are such a giving, thoughtful person
of the homeless, have you got all those gift wrapped to take to the
bridge people? I just know on these cold nights you take blankets to them.
Or do you just sit around crying the government doesn't do enough.

[SA210]

Owned in which way? :lmao You didn't own anything, You like to think u did. Where did I get owned, definitely not by u.
owned? :lol

Jesus was compassionate for the poor, wanted peace, not war.

Gtown, What country would Jesus Bomb?

[SA210]

I just want to know one thing. Your are such a giving, thoughtful person
of the homeless, have you got all those gift wrapped to take to the
bridge people? I just know on these cold nights you take blankets to them.
Or do you just sit around crying the government doesn't do enough.
I actually do more than that Xray, but I couldn't talk about it here, because Gtown would put me on a pedestal and find it threatening.

[gtownspur]

WHat bumper sticker did SA210 rip off?


Jesus is the king of the Kingdom of God, but in the old testament, as the Word of God he led war with the Israelites against other peoples.

NEXT!!!!

[bigzak25]

what i cannot understand 210, is how you can be so giving to the less fortunate here at home, yet so indifferent to those in need in iraq. why man? don't you care about the children all over the world? or just in our area code?

[xrayzebra]

I actually do more than that Xray, but I couldn't talk about it here, because Gtown would put me on a pedestal and find it threatening.

Huh!

[gtownspur]

I actually do more than that Xray, but I couldn't talk about it here, because Gtown would put me on a pedestal and find it threatening.

sure doesnt seem like it. The only thing you're feeding is my thread.

[gtownspur]

what i cannot understand 210, is how you can be so giving to the less fortunate here at home, yet so indifferent to those in need in iraq. why man? don't you care about the children all over the world? or just in our area code?


YEah, be like ludacris and have hoes in many area codes.

[SA210]

what i cannot understand 210, is how you can be so giving to the less fortunate here at home, yet so indifferent to those in need in iraq. why man? don't you care about the children all over the world? or just in our area code?
I care about the ones over there that were bombed and have no chance at freedom because they are dead.

[gtownspur]

Jesus said. "Let the dead take care of the dead":lmao

[SA210]

WHat bumper sticker did SA210 rip off?


Jesus is the king of the Kingdom of God, but in the old testament, as the Word of God he led war with the Israelites against other peoples.

NEXT!!!!
So Jesus is leading this war? :lmao

[bigzak25]

I care about the ones over there that were bombed and have no chance at freedom because they are dead.


casualties of war. very sad.


I'll worry about the living. :tu

[SA210]

casualties of war. very sad.


I'll worry about the living. :tu
Your right. We should get our troops out of harms way.

[Crookshanks]

The commandment stands, spin or not. Plus He LIED to KILL. Now that's really bad.

That's the most illogical thing I have read in quite awhile! The commandment does not stand alone - and gtown was completely correct in that the word kill means "do not murder." Maybe you should learn a little bit more about the bible you love to quote before you start making stupid statements! After God gave Moses the ten commandments, he then commanded Joshua and the children of Israel to go in and take the land which he had given them. He told them to completely wipe out the heathens inhabiting the land (that included the women and children!). And King David was called "a man after God's own heart" and he spent the better portion of his reign fighting the enemies of Israel. So don't give me this garbage about christianity being all peace, love and happiness! Oh, and Jesus used a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple - doesn't sound like pacifism to me!

And the "Bush lied" line is getting so tiresome - can't you people find something new? And in fact, the President addressed that very false notion in his press conference this morning. But, of course, it doesn't matter what he says or what everyone else saw, read and has said in the past few years. You won't move on!!

[SA210]

That's the most illogical thing I have read in quite awhile! The commandment does not stand alone - and gtown was completely correct in that the word kill means "do not murder." Maybe you should learn a little bit more about the bible you love to quote before you start making stupid statements! After God gave Moses the ten commandments, he then commanded Joshua and the children of Israel to go in and take the land which he had given them. He told them to completely wipe out the heathens inhabiting the land (that included the women and children!). And King David was called "a man after God's own heart" and he spent the better portion of his reign fighting the enemies of Israel. So don't give me this garbage about christianity being all peace, love and happiness! Oh, and Jesus used a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple - doesn't sound like pacifism to me!

And the "Bush lied" line is getting so tiresome - can't you people find something new? And in fact, the President addressed that very false notion in his press conference this morning. But, of course, it doesn't matter what he says or what everyone else saw, read and has said in the past few years. You won't move on!!

Say all you want, type a million paragraphs if u must.

What Country would Jesus bomb? And just cuz "Bush lying" is tiresome doesn't mean it's not important. Maybe if he just quit lying.

[bigzak25]

Your right. We should get our troops out of harms way.

your hopeless. faithless. and blind. Godbless you.

[nkdlunch]

the bible also says that all adulterers and gays should be killed :lol

[SA210]

vice versa Zak

[xrayzebra]

Say all you want, type a million paragraphs if u must.

What Country would Jesus bomb? And just cuz "Bush lying" is tiresome doesn't mean it's not important. Maybe if he just quit lying.

Maybe, just maybe "Bush lying" is the biggest lie of them all. And what
country would Jesus bomb. You would have to ask him that question. I
wouldn't dare to presume what he would do in any situation. Only twerps
like you would do that.

[Oh, Gee!!]

your hopeless. faithless. and blind. Godbless you.


because he doesn't like the fact that Bush started a bullshit war? Way to judge people, Bizfake25.

[bigzak25]

the bible also says that all adulterers and gays should be killed :lol



the bible is not unfallable you know. there are errors in it.

it's just a book.


Jesus however....:tu :angel

[bigzak25]

because he doesn't like the fact that Bush started a bullshit war? Way to judge people, Bizfake25.



:blah :blah :blah :blah

whatever you say man. i grow tiresome of you guys blind hatred.

if it was Clinton in office? doing the exact same thing? you'd be singing a different tune.

[SA210]

Maybe, just maybe "Bush lying" is the biggest lie of them all. And what
country would Jesus bomb. You would have to ask him that question. I
wouldn't dare to presume what he would do in any situation. Only twerps
like you would do that.
What a way to get away from answering what Jesus would do.

[xrayzebra]

the bible is not unfallable you know. there are errors in it.

it's just a book.


Jesus however....:tu :angel

bigzak, I would call it more than "it's just a book". :depressed

[bigzak25]

Jesus would choose love. You choose hate. Checkmate. :tu

[FromWayDowntown]

your . . . faithless

An example for you, joch.

[bigzak25]

bigzak, I would call it more than "it's just a book". :depressed



it's THE Book, but still a book.

I don't worship the bible. and it does have some hate in it.

I only worship The Father and His Son.

[bigzak25]

An example for you, joch.

i misread you quote. what are you saying here?

[SA210]

Jesus would choose love. You choose hate. Checkmate. :tu

Jesus loved bombs so much...

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/livindeadboi/bush_pope_bomb.jpg

[Oh, Gee!!]

speak of what you Know. about me? you know NOTHING.


I know you're a condescending, judgmental, christian, republican, wanna-be rapper.

[bigzak25]

you choose hate.

[bigzak25]

I know you're a condescending, judgmental, christian, republican, wanna-be rapper.


i'm condescending? you got a mirror?

i'm judgemental? you got a mirror?

Christian? Yup.

Republican? depends.

Wanna-be-rapper? Fo Shizzle. :tu

[SA210]

Yes Zak, I hate evil actions.

[Oh, Gee!!]

i'm condescending? you got a mirror?

i'm judgemental? you got a mirror?

Christian? Yup.

Republican? depends.

Wanna-be-rapper? Fo Shizzle. :tu


I'm not the one preaching the gospel, zak

[bigzak25]

maybe that's your problem.

[SA210]

Maybe that's Bush's problem.

[bigzak25]

good one! original too! :lol

[SA210]

And Jesus loves bombs. That was original. :lmao

[bigzak25]

who said that? some idiot hater no doubt.

people like you would have rather the slaves been kept in captivity for fear of lives lost.

"keep the jews incarcerated, that's not our war."

etc, etc, etc...take a good look at your viewpoints. they are not much different.

[FromWayDowntown]

i misread you quote. what are you saying here?

Just going back to a conversation jochhejaam and I were having earlier in this thread. Joch contends that SA210 isn't qualified to pass on anyone's faith; I said that if he wasn't qualified then nobody else here was so qualified -- and that there was a political inconsistency with Bush supporters calling out those who oppose Bush for being non-religious. Joch said he didn't recall seeing that happen; I was just pointing out an example for him.

[Oh, Gee!!]

maybe that's your problem.

maybe your problem is being a hypocrite

[bigzak25]

cool. thanks FWD. :tu

i agree that NONE of use are qualified to pass judgement on anyones faith.

only God and Jesus knows ones heart...of course...the individual knows his own heart as well...

[SA210]

Zak a hypocrite? No way :rolleyes

[bigzak25]

maybe your problem is being a hypocrite


that's a mankind problem. are you saying your not a hypocrite?

[SA210]

cool. thanks FWD. :tu

i agree that NONE of use are qualified to pass judgement on anyones faith.

only God and Jesus knows ones heart...of course...the individual knows his own heart as well...

except the book that teaches that is "just a book" and only partly correct to you. :rolleyes

[bigzak25]

you guys must have some expectation that a follower of Jesus is perfect like Jesus.

we all fall short of the Glory of God. we are all sinners. we are all guilty. none moreso or less so than others. But God will Judge one day. Do you know him through His Son or not? That's all I know. But God makes the rules, not I.

[bigzak25]

except the book that teaches that is "just a book" and only partly correct to you. :rolleyes


what you are failing to realize is that FAITH is stronger than any book.

FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS. I will show you one day. Patience and Faith my friend. :tu

[SA210]

Everytime someone says your being hypocritical, u resort to the same scapegoat "we are all sinners and nobody is perfect"

We know that. You are the one preaching the word of God, but then you discredit his word by saying the bible is "just a book" and U only agrre with some of it, though it is the word of god. :rolleyes

[Oh, Gee!!]

what you are failing to realize is that FAITH is stronger than any book.

FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS. I will show you one day. Patience and Faith my friend. :tu


shut up

[SA210]

what you are failing to realize is that FAITH is stronger than any book.

FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS. I will show you one day. Patience and Faith my friend. :tu

I'm talking about God's word. From God's word u find faith, but you find God's word only partially true. That makes alot of sense.

[bigzak25]

Everytime someone says your being hypocritical, u resort to the same scapegoat "we are all sinners and nobody is perfect"

We know that. You are the one preaching the word of God, but then you discredit his word by saying the bible is "just a book" and U only agrre with some of it, though it is the word of god. :rolleyes


hey, you can think whatever you wish. i'm not forcing you.

[bigzak25]

shut up

we need that mirror again. :lol

[bigzak25]

I'm talking about God's word. From God's word u find faith, but you find God's word only partially true. That makes alot of sense.


the Good Book was written by Man. Man is sinful by nature. The Bible is not perfect. Is that so hard to comprehend?

[SA210]

So it is the word of God or it isn't?

[bigzak25]

you decide on your own. i'm not a teacher. i'm a follower.

[SA210]

you decide on your own. i'm not a teacher. i'm a follower.
A follower of Christ? Christ from the bible that's only partially true?

[bigzak25]

partially true are your words, not mine.

[SA210]

"It's NOT perfect" are Your words. God's word is not perfect?

[bigzak25]

God's words yes. Man's words no.

[smeagol]

partially true are your words, not mine.
Zaq, the questions I have asked you have gone unanswered.

I said we were not qualified to discuss religion. You said otherwise so i shot some questions your direction but you are fixated in your defense of Mr. GWB.

[SA210]

:tu Zak. You have enlightened me. :rolleyes

[bigzak25]

Your too stubborn. And i'm still learning. It's not meant to be at this time.

I'm sorry smeagol. I'll look now.

[SA210]

Your too stubborn. And i'm still learning.
I may be stubborn to acknowledge Bushs' actions as Christ-like. Your right about that.

[bigzak25]

True.

Let me start by asking what is your Christian denomination?


I am catholic by birth. I was baptised as a child and got communion.

never got confirmation. when through the rebellious teenage (at least in my case) of wanting PROOF of God, then started going to Baptist Church. Which i really enjoy, as the Pasturs can get married, and it's not as ceremonial at catholic church, although the catholic church is coming around, but anyhow, and then the message, i've always been able to learn more, and get more out of Baptist Church. However, having said that, I currently attend a wesleyan church, which, as far as i can tell, is just like baptist. I plan to get baptised very soon. :tu

But I must say, I wish to learn about EVERY Church that preaches the Jesus Christ is the Truth, The Light and The Way. :tu

[Crookshanks]

The Bible is God's word and it is perfect. There are no mistakes and no contridictions. Yes, it was written by men, but the words were the inspired words of God. Yes, there have been many translations over time, but they stay true to the original greek and hebrew texts.

You cannot truly believe in God if you won't believe in His word. The bible says, "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

And I still don't know why you think Bush's actions are not Christ-like. What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?

[bigzak25]

As a born again Christian, I'm assuming your only source of religious truth is the Bible. And how to interpret the Bible is up to each individual, because once we accepted Jesus as our savior, the Holy Spirit guides us in this interpretation (of the Bible).

YES!



If this is true, how come there are so many Protestant denominations? Some believe in predestination, some don't. Some believe its wrong to drink, some don't. Some believe you are saved by Faith alone, some believe you need to through works into the equation.


We are all sinners. I believe the in the Bible, it says the ONLY sin that is not forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit. That could be interpreted in many ways, suicide being the most apparent. But until one is united with his/her holy spirit? How can they blasphem against it? Maybe it means that once Saved, if you THEN turn your back on Jesus, that is not fogiven. I dunno, i can only speculate.

As for the protestant church, I am ignorant. We have free will. God has a plan, but he is watching us and helping us in spite of ourselves. We are saved by Faith IN Jesus Christ as the Son, but yeah, once Saved by our Faith, we must WALK as Jesus walked. That does not mean we won't stumble, fall, or get a bit lost, but we must always return to the path or face dire consequences. As for drinking? Well, all i know is Jesus drank wine. But then, he proclaimed that he would not drink wine again until his return. I'm battling this demon right now. I THINK i've finally defeated alcohol. I hope so. I BELIEVE I have, so i'll say i have. But I hang out in bars. My friends drink. To each their own. :tu


If the Holy Spirit is guiding us to interpret the Bible (and therefore there is no need for and "outside" authority to help us understand that complex and sometimes contradicting book known as the Holy Bible) Protestantisim should be much more homogenious than what it actually is.

What's your take?

Again, i am ignorant about protestantism, BUT, just because our holy spirits are guiding us, doesn't mean we can't learn from others, namely scholars. I've learned much from pastuers over the past few months. BUT, i must finish the new testament. I am failing in this regard. Obvious by the fact that I've spent all day on this forum so far...:lol :depressed

oh well. the day is NOT over. :tu

[bigzak25]

Another question related to the previous one. As a born again Christian I believe you are a proponent of Sola Scriptura. Given that Sola Scriptura is not supported by the Bible, what's your taking on this issue?

Thanks


i'm not sure what sola scriptura is about, even after reading about it via google...sorry.

[nkdlunch]

The Bible is God's word and it is perfect. There are no mistakes and no contridictions. Yes, it was written by men, but the words were the inspired words of God. Yes, there have been many translations over time, but they stay true to the original greek and hebrew texts.

You cannot truly believe in God if you won't believe in His word. The bible says, "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

so you beleive all gays and adulterers should be killed??


And I still don't know why you think Bush's actions are not Christ-like. What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?
r u serious????

for one, being responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis + americans soldiers.

[bigzak25]

^as long as you sing his praises when the Iraqi's are truly liberated and prospering.

deal?

[SA210]

so you beleive all gays and adulterers should be killed??

r u serious????

for one, being responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis + americans soldiers.
exactly. But no, how could anyone see that.

[nkdlunch]

^as long as you sing his praises when the Iraqi's are truly liberated and prospering.

deal?

:lol truly liberated with american bases permanently on their home soil :lol

[SA210]

:lol truly liberated with american bases permanently on their home soil :lol
In the name of Jesus of course.

[smeagol]

i'm not sure what sola scriptura is about, even after reading about it via google...sorry.
Sola Scriptura means your only authority in terms of religion is the Bible.

If you are a believer in Sola Scriptura, you don't put any stock on Tradition or what the early Christians said and did, which was passed on generation to generation, and was capture by the Catholic Church in many of its doctrines (Baptism of Infants, Forgivness of Sins by auricular confesion, Purgatory, teh Papacy and its Infallibility, Honoring the Saints, The Eucharist, The Mass, Marian Beliefs, etc).

[bigzak25]

I don't expect you guys to know what strength in the face of adversity is about. Well, not anymore at least. :(

[bigzak25]

Sola Scriptura means your only authority in terms of religion is the Bible.

If you are a believer in Sola Scriptura, you don't put any stock on Tradition or what the early Christians said and did, which was passed on generation to generation, and was capture by the Catholic Church in many of its doctrines (Baptism of Infants, Forgivness of Sins by auricular confesion, Purgatory, teh Papacy and its Infallibility, Honoring the Saints, The Eucharist, The Mass, Marian Beliefs, etc).


okay. i think i can agree with this. My authority is God and Jesus, but yeah, through the words of the GoodBook. I can actually SEE.

alot of people in here judging me will be the 1st ones in line to see the davinci code, i can promise you that...ironic. :lmao

i like the idea of being baptised as an adult, when we can choose. if that's what Jesus did? That's what I'll do. :tu

[Extra Stout]

We are all sinners. I believe the in the Bible, it says the ONLY sin that is not forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit. That could be interpreted in many ways, suicide being the most apparent. But until one is united with his/her holy spirit?
You speak as if there are multiple holy spirits, when the Bible makes clear there is One.

[bigzak25]

well then my mistake...i'll read of and make my own conclusions... crucify me why don'tcha.

[Crookshanks]

so you beleive all gays and adulterers should be killed??

No I don't. Those laws were old testament laws governing the Jews. When Jesus came he said, "I have not come to condemn the law, but to fulfill the law." In other words, we now live under grace - there was no more need for animal sacrifices.

Over time, societies change and laws evolve. For instance, back in the old west, they hanged horse thieves - but that isn't the law anymore.

God gave those laws to the children of Israel for specific reasons. He wanted them to be a holy people and be set apart from the heathens around them. Over time, society has decided that adultery is not punishable by death and that homosexuality is okay. It doesn't mean that God doesn't still see it as sin - it's just not punishable by death anymore.

[Extra Stout]

If this is true, how come there are so many Protestant denominations? Some believe in predestination, some don't. Some believe its wrong to drink, some don't. Some believe you are saved by Faith alone, some believe you need to through works into the equation.Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians about such disputable matters of faith.

And the question of faith vs. works is Christological, not practical. There is no Protestant who could claim that somebody who claims faith with their lips, but never manifests it through works truly has faith.

Catholic theology say that works are a necessary contribution to salvation; Protestant theology says they are necessary evidence of salvation.

Comprende?

[Extra Stout]

so you beleive all gays and adulterers should be killed??
Old Testament Law can be broken down into civil, ceremonial, and moral sections.

The civil law was binding upon ancient Israel. The ceremonial law governed the old order of sacrificial temple worship.

The old kingdom and the old sacrificial order pointed to Christ. Upon his coming, they were fulfilled and the legal requirements were abrogated, as a new covenant had come as prophesied in the Old Testament.

The moral law remains. So while it would be against the moral tenets of Christianity to practice homosexuality or adultery, the civil penalties as laid out in the Old Testament would not be executed, because the New Testament church is not meant to be a civil authority, but rather only a moral authority.

[Crookshanks]

Excellent explanations!!

[Phenomanul]

so you beleive all gays and adulterers should be killed??

r u serious????

for one, being responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqis + americans soldiers.

People die in the name of freedom... tis a sad fact of human complexity.

People die in the name of self-gratification (i.e. drunk driving, over dosage etc...) tis an even sadder fact of human complexity.

Even more people die in the name of power and greed... Consider this: many people have died in this war... but even larger numbers of people died while Saddam was in power.

Deaths attributed to Stalin alone - over 40 million :wow :wow

[Extra Stout]

How exactly could one be the President of the United States while maintaining a strictly pacifist interpretation of Christianity?

The President is going to face life-or-death decisions whether he wants to or not.

[Phenomanul]

How exactly could one be the President of the United States while maintaining a strictly pacifist interpretation of Christianity?

The President is going to face life-or-death decisions whether he wants to or not.


Well said... to that I would add the old adage concept, "no matter what GWB does he will never please everyone."

[Phenomanul]

Old Testament Law can be broken down into civil, ceremonial, and moral sections.

The civil law was binding upon ancient Israel. The ceremonial law governed the old order of sacrificial temple worship.

The old kingdom and the old sacrificial order pointed to Christ. Upon his coming, they were fulfilled and the legal requirements were abrogated, as a new covenant had come as prophesied in the Old Testament.

The moral law remains. So while it would be against the moral tenets of Christianity to practice homosexuality or adultery, the civil penalties as laid out in the Old Testament would not be executed, because the New Testament church is not meant to be a civil authority, but rather only a moral authority.

And to add to this:

Under the Old Covenant people were redeemed of their sin by an annual sacrificial ritual.

Under the New Covenant we are redeemed by the ultimate sacrifice: Christ himself.

"The shedding of blood is necessary for the atonement of sin" Christ's blood was the payment.

God is now our 'personal' judge and 'counselor'. This is the case under the New Covenant because the Spirit of God no longer dwells in the Temple's "Holy of Holies" but within each true believer. We have personal access to God's guidance and wisdom. We just have to learn to seek it.

[exstatic]

...because the New Testament church is not meant to be a civil authority, but rather only a moral authority.
So, why don't these people stay the fuck out of politics, and stop trying to implement the bible as civil law?

[Extra Stout]

So, why don't these people stay the fuck out of politics, and stop trying to implement the bible as civil law?
That moral authority can extend into politics. Obviously, theocrats think it extends much further than I think it does.

I'm speaking of civil authority in terms of ecclesiocracy, where the church would be the actual government entity, as opposed to theocracy, where the code of law is based upon the tenets of a faith, but the state is not coincidental with the church.

I really, really, really don't think the latter is desirable, but neither do I think that Scripture proscribes it, whereas it does proscribe ecclesiocracy.

[smeagol]

And the question of faith vs. works is Christological, not practical. There is no Protestant who could claim that somebody who claims faith with their lips, but never manifests it through works truly has faith.

My understanding is that Fundamentalists believe they are saved from the moment they "accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior". Works plays no role in Salvation for them. And their whole theology is based on this fact.

But I may be wrong.

[Uncle Donnie]

My understanding is that Fundamentalists believe they are saved from the moment they "accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior". Works plays no role in Salvation for them. And their whole theology is based on this fact.

But I may be wrong.

True. I think the point though is that while works cannot contribute towards salvation, accepting Jesus as Lord will cause good works.

All Christians are sinners, even the ones that don't think they are. Salvation comes only through the grace of God through belief in Jesus Christ. This is a central part of the Gospel. The idea that works play any part in salvation obviously conflicts with that. I never thought that was only a fundamentalist or born-again philosophy but a general tenet of the Christian faith. From what I have read in this thread though, the Catholic faith does not exactly agree with this, so just like you I may be wrong.

[smeagol]

True. I think the point though is that while works cannot contribute towards salvation, accepting Jesus as Lord will cause good works.

All Christians are sinners, even the ones that don't think they are. Salvation comes only through the grace of God through belief in Jesus Christ. This is a central part of the Gospel. The idea that works play any part in salvation obviously conflicts with that. I never thought that was only a fundamentalist or born-again philosophy but a general tenet of the Christian faith. From what I have read in this thread though, the Catholic faith does not exactly agree with this, so just like you I may be wrong.
Thanks for confirming then that Protestants in general (I guess with few exceptions) believe that thy are saved the minute they start believing in Jesus Christ, no matter what kind of life they lead after that moment (works).

In other words, Protestants, when they become Christians (believers in Christ), they firmly believe they are assured Salvation. No matter what happens later. No matter what exemplary or evil lifes they live, just as Moslems believe they will go to heaven if they die participating in a jihad, Protestants believe they will go to Heaven by the simple act of believing in Christ as their savior.

The Catholic view is that you need to work for your Salvation. Faith is obviously a necessary condition but is it is not a sufficient one. IMO, the catholic view is supported by a number of verses in the Bible.

[jochhejaam]

Thanks for confirming then that Protestants in general (I guess with few exceptions) believe that thy are saved the minute they start believing in Jesus Christ, no matter what kind of life they lead after that moment (works).

In other words, Protestants, when they become Christians (believers in Christ), they firmly believe they are assured Salvation. No matter what happens later. No matter what exemplary or evil lifes they live, just as Moslems believe they will go to heaven if they die participating in a jihad, Protestants believe they will go to Heaven by the simple act of believing in Christ as their savior.

The Catholic view is that you need to work for your Salvation. Faith is obviously a necessary condition but is it is not a sufficient one. IMO, the catholic view is supported by a number of verses in the Bible.
Smeagol, I believe the Baptists believe "once saved, always saved" but the Pentecosts (me) don't believe the same.

I'll cite the scriptures (a parable) that I believe explain this.

Matt. 13:-3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

And Christ's explanation of this parable as follows:

Matt: 3-18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

Not much different than the criminal who is rehabilitated and then perhaps drifts back off into a life of crime.

[smeagol]

Thanks for explaining to me the difference between Baptists (I guess Evangelicals and Funadamentalists are in this same boat) and Pentecosts.

[Phenomanul]

Thanks for confirming then that Protestants in general (I guess with few exceptions) believe that thy are saved the minute they start believing in Jesus Christ, no matter what kind of life they lead after that moment (works).

In other words, Protestants, when they become Christians (believers in Christ), they firmly believe they are assured Salvation. No matter what happens later. No matter what exemplary or evil lifes they live, just as Moslems believe they will go to heaven if they die participating in a jihad, Protestants believe they will go to Heaven by the simple act of believing in Christ as their savior.

The Catholic view is that you need to work for your Salvation. Faith is obviously a necessary condition but is it is not a sufficient one. IMO, the catholic view is supported by a number of verses in the Bible.

IMO You are saved when you believe... "For by faith are we saved through grace... and not of ourselves... it is the Gift of GOD -- Eph 2:8" Christ's sacrifice IS sufficient... to say it needs supplementation would mean to belittle the significance and 'worth' of his sacrifice.

Oviously no one can fool GOD... I believe that is where the "loop hole" is closed...

I can claim to be a be a believer all I want... but if my life does not show the "fruit of the Spirit" (i.e. characteristics of kindness, forgiveness, benevolence, patience, love, honesty, restraint of anger, etc...) then I'm not walking the path GOD intended for my life.

Again, no one is perfect. However, our goal is to strive to obey God's precepts.

As for the reaper example... I believe GOD punishes his children much like a parent would do... in order to steer them to more productive paths. I don't believe we can lose our salvation once we have genuinely accepted it (Again... I cannot fool GOD for he has the ability to examine my heart - i.e. the inner workings of my soul; my motives, my sincerity).

I, however, believe we can lose 'the joy of our salvation' by living lives that don't conform to GOD's will. Ultimately we end up 'robbing' ourselves of the blessings that God had in store for us.

Does this mean I have a 'free credit card' to sin all I want??? after all, I'm forever saved?? The answer is a resounding NO!!!

I am COMPELLED to obey simply because I know what it took for me to obtain direct access to GOD: Christ's blood.

I am COMPELLED to work harder in order to please GOD. As Extra Stout said in another post: Works are evidence of Salvation. I don't believe they are requirements. Consider the case of the thief that was crucified next to Jesus... He believed... but had no 'contributing' works... and yet GOD himself welcomed him to paradise.

Anyways I hope this gives you some more insight.

[Uncle Donnie]

Very good explanation hegamboa. This is what I believe as well.

I'm Lutheran BTW smeagol, although I think what hegamboa explained is generally believed by most Protestant denominations.

[smeagol]

Very good explanation hegamboa. This is what I believe as well.

I'm Lutheran BTW smeagol, although I think what hegamboa explained is generally believed by most Protestant denominations.
Yep, this is one big difference between Catholics and Protestants.

[Guru of Nothing]

Again... I cannot fool GOD for he has the ability to examine my heart - i.e. the inner workings of my soul; my motives, my sincerity.

Then why go to church? So we can fool everyone else? [/cynic]

But seriously, if God has the ability to examine my heart, the inner working of my soul, my motives and my sincerity, then surely he comprehends why I am not a Christian.

[Crookshanks]

But seriously, if God has the ability to examine my heart, the inner working of my soul, my motives and my sincerity, then surely he comprehends why I am not a Christian.

Of course He does, and it saddens him that you have chosen to reject his gift. The Bible says "it is not my will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." But, the choice is yours.

[Guru of Nothing]

Of course He does, and it saddens him that you have chosen to reject his gift. The Bible says "it is not my will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." But, the choice is yours.

I think you are missing my point, I am not rejecting anything. I am merely refusing to attempt fooling him, or myself.

[Crookshanks]

There's no middle ground - if you don't accept him, then you've rejected him. Period.

[Guru of Nothing]

There's no middle ground - if you don't accept him, then you've rejected him. Period.

Says you.

[Phenomanul]

Says you.


Says Jesus: "For you were neither cold nor hot but lukewarm, I shall vomit you from my mouth"