Harvey: Old role, new image: If Manu backtracks

[Kori Ellis]

Buck Harvey: Old role, new image: If Manu backtracks

Web Posted: 12/25/2005 12:00 AM CST

San Antonio Express-News

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA122505.1C.COL.BKNharvey.spurs.2a96766.html

Manu Ginobili will sit behind the bench today, and that will change in a week or so. Then, when healthy, Ginobili will sit on the bench.

At least that's a possibility when he returns. As it has been the previous two seasons, there are logical reasons for Ginobili to resume life as a sixth man.

Some will think this diminishes him, especially in a world where the debut of Kobe Bryant's new sneaker line makes news. But the move, instead, would elevate Ginobili.

Who else, after everything he accomplished last season, would agree to this?

All that is certain now is that Ginobili won't play today in Detroit, and that's why this Christmas Day test isn't really a test. Without the one who made the pass to Robert Horry, these aren't the same Spurs who beat the Pistons last June.

Ginobili will probably return before the end of the year. And when he comes back there's reason to think the Spurs would be better served if he came off the bench.

This isn't a demotion. This is common sense. Michael Finley has started his entire career, and his play in Ginobili's absence underlines this. Without Finley and his jumper, how many games would the Spurs have lost in this stretch?

Finley is accustomed to starting and feels comfortable in the pattern. Ginobili's nature, ever unusual, doesn't depend on the usual.

Ginobili instead changes games any time he steps on the floor. When Gregg Popovich brought Ginobili off the bench in the Denver series last spring, George Karl said then that he long ago told Popovich that this was the better role for Ginobili.

The Spurs' rotation works well with this substitution pattern, too. If Ginobili subs in halfway through the first quarter, then he would be on the floor when Tony Parker would sit. The Spurs, then, would always have a high-grade driver.

As for what happens later in games: Ginobili would play about the same number of minutes, and he would finish games.

No wonder Popovich is considering the move.

"We've talked about it," Popovich said. "Do we want to bring him off the bench slowly and let him have a adjustment period? Conventional wisdom would be, the longer this goes on, the more you might want to slowly bring him off the bench. You would play it from there and see how it goes."

Popovich chooses his words carefully, couching this as a kind of therapy. But why be cautious? Ginobili never complained before, did he?

"You can say the right things and do the right things," Popovich said. "But I guarantee you, deep in his gut, he wants to start."

Popovich doesn't see this as anti-Spurs behavior. To get to this level, he thinks every player has to have a strong ego.

So Popovich tries to be sensitive to Ginobili, as well as to Argentine fans who have his e-mail address. The image of a sixth man is what Karl said it was. It's a role, right? Allen Iverson, once approached to do the same, rejected the idea as if it were a slur.

For Ginobili, the move could be perceived as backtracking. He made the All-Star Game in Denver just a year ago, and then a Denver columnist announced that nearly everyone — including most of the Sacramento roster — deserved a spot over Ginobili.

The columnist eventually apologized in print; Ginobili chewed up the Nuggets, after all. And Ginobili spent the season creating a new status. He went from the Olympic gold medal to his second NBA ring as a rising superstar.

But this change would also be different than the other two. Popovich wasn't getting much out of Hedo Turkoglu in 2004 and Brent Barry last year, so he thought maybe starting them would give them confidence. Finley comes with some assets.

So what about it? Would Ginobili mind?

He does say the right things. He says he doesn't care, and he shares some something else. He admits he didn't like coming off the bench two years ago. "I was worried," he said.

Worried, perhaps, because he wasn't sure if Popovich understood him. That was his contract year, too.

Now he's shown the world what he can do. He angled inside, took hits, scored, won games and, on a night in Detroit, made the clutch pass to a clutch shooter.

So if he came off the bench?

Then the sixth man would have to be an important position.

[xcoriate]

:lmao pop vs argentina war v3 is now commencing.

[T Park]

oh here come the argentine bozos, ready to say how this is as big an insult to THEM as it is to Manu.


We, being me, TIMVP, Buck Harvey have said forever, to prolong Ginobili, and for it to make sense, would be to bring Ginobili off the bench.

This year?

Makes sense to a point.

I think if you could acquire a Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson, then you definately consider, and probobly follow through, on bringing Ginobili off the bench.

[weebo]

Actually, I think a move like this might prolong Manu's longetivity in the NBA. Our bench would be set with him coming off the bench--a lot more firepower coming off the bench.

[boutons]

Manu should start. It's important to him.
He can still be subbed early and often and used like a 6th man.

[dn0]

manu is a victim of his own game, I hope he sucks balls coming off the bench and recovers his starter spot that he has well earned.

[T Park]

Manu should start. It's important to him.


So as a coach you worry about whats important to an individual over the "team' ???

Of course./...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm not sure anyone was paying attention but even Manu said today he thinks Finley can come off the bench just fine.

That's about as vocal of a "I want to start damnit" as you're going to get out of #20.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs need a fucking rebounder, Tim Duncan sucks.

[Carlos869]

SAS at DET:

Finley 1-7 3pts.

Manu must go to the bench.

[beirmeistr]

The fact that Finley has been a starter all his life does not justify Manu being demoted to bench duty. Finley knew what his role was when he agreed to be a Spur. Like M anu said today, Finley can do a good job coming off the bench. This business of letting Manu come off the bench is getting old. They tried it with Turkeglu and with Barry---same excuse---to build up their confidence. This is the NBA---if they don't have confidence, they have no business in the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

The fact that Finley has been a starter all his life does not justify Manu being demoted to bench duty. Finley knew what his role was when he agreed to be a Spur. Like M anu said today, Finley can do a good job coming off the bench. This business of letting Manu come off the bench is getting old. They tried it with Turkeglu and with Barry---same excuse---to build up their confidence. This is the NBA---if they don't have confidence, they have no business in the NBA.

If they do it this year, it won't be about Finley's confidence. It will be because Manu isn't healthy. Manu is needed in the postseason. He's an incredible playoff performer. So if he has to come off the bench for a little while or have his minutes reduced when he comes back to keep him healthy for the playoffs, then they'll do it. But come playoff time, Manu is the man.

[TwoHandJam]

We can still have the best of both worlds if Pop just subs Manu out at around the 6-7 min mark as he normally does and then bring him back in to finish the 1st quarter/start the 2nd. We should always strive to have a slasher/creator on the floor at all times and since Parker and Manu are our two best (or only) guys who fit this role, it does make sense to stagger their minutes on the court.

[boutons]

Poor Manu, even during the game internview today, he was asked about coming off the bench. He gave the "correct" answer.

[Sportman]

Well, hello people i am new here so i just want to say that manu must not come from the bench, are you crazy harvey? Finley hasn´t the heart as manu has. Certanily, you could say finley is better than barry or turkoglu but he would never be better than manu. And i agree something about pop said, manu has always said politly that he doesn´t care to start from the bench, but in his deep gut and desire he wants to be an starter.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

oh here come the argentine bozos, ready to say how this is as big an insult to THEM as it is to Manu.


We, being me, TIMVP, Buck Harvey have said forever, to prolong Ginobili, and for it to make sense, would be to bring Ginobili off the bench.

This year?

Makes sense to a point.

I think if you could acquire a Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson, then you definately consider, and probobly follow through, on bringing Ginobili off the bench.Who the hell are you calling a bozo, you fat fuck???

[leemajors]

if he were to come off the bench it would be in no way a demotion. i think if manu thought pop thought it was best he would do it. obviously, if it wasn't working pop would start him again. if he plays the same amount of minutes it is about nothing but ego, and nothing i have ever seen from manu shows him to be an egomaniac.

[beirmeistr]

We can still have the best of both worlds if Pop just subs Manu out at around the 6-7 min mark as he normally does and then bring him back in to finish the 1st quarter/start the 2nd. We should always strive to have a slasher/creator on the floor at all times and since Parker and Manu are our two best (or only) guys who fit this role, it does make sense to stagger their minutes on the court.
I totally agree with this idea. You don't give a player a 52 million dollar contract to come off the bench.

[angel_luv]

I know that the overall good of the team has to come first and that you cannot cater to any one player. But on the same token, you have to be sensitive to every player because they are the team.

Pop's job is not easy. Thank God all our guys are unselfish and put their team mates above themselves. That is a credit to Pop's management as much as it is to the individuals.

Personally, I don't define anyone's value to the team by whether or not they start.
However, I understand that starting means a lot to the players. Also I think Pop was incredibly accurate when he said:" I guarantee you, deep in his ( Manu's) gut, he wants to start."
For that reason, I hope it works out for Gino to start.

[JamesR]

Everybody wants to start. Thats not the point here.

The point is that Manu can be incredible effective off the bench going against 2nd team swingmen. Finley has been great in his games as a starter.

Everbody needs to look in their NBA History books and read up on John Havlicek. Came off the bench for around 18-21 PPG during the Celtics dynasty years with Russell.

[pawe]

after the first 6 mins of the game manu comes in for fin and td & tp takes their rest and we still have firepower and energy left..isnt that a nice strategy? finley starting (w/c he always does) to boost his confidence, td and tp doin early damage and rest, horry or barry doin the maintenance and we will still have an all start player in the court in manu.

[T Park]

Who the hell are you calling a bozo, you fat fuck???

you guys are nuts.

Zanex PLEASE.

[Athenea]

after the first 6 mins of the game manu comes in for fin and td & tp takes their rest and we still have firepower and energy left..isnt that a nice strategy? finley starting (w/c he always does) to boost his confidence, td and tp doin early damage and rest, horry or barry doin the maintenance and we will still have an all start player in the court in manu.
Yesterday after 12 mins of the game we had 8 pts all coming from TP and Pistons were ahead of us. Fin was a no show the whole game. U can try it during the regular season but doing such a thing during the POffs is suicidal.
U play your very best players against the opposition's very best players.
Period.

[ducks]

pop did it in the finals and spurs won that series

[ChumpDumper]

Bring him off the bench when he comes back and see how it works. Definitely makes sense to keep a slasher in at all times, and if we can maximize Manu's effectiveness while limiting his minutes, there's no reason outside of national pride to not do it.

[hendrix]

pop did it in the finals and spurs won that series

pop did what? ... had sex in the locker? smoked some pot?.. what?
For the love of all your american english teachers, use the language. And try to learn some too.

[ducks]

pop brought manu off the bench in the playoffs


did you not watch the playoffs last year?

[T Park]

pop did what? ... had sex in the locker? smoked some pot?.. what?
For the love of all your american english teachers, use the language. And try to learn some too.

Hey,

argentinians.

Chill the fuck out.

[hendrix]

pop brought manu off the bench in the playoffs
did you not watch the playoffs last year?

You said "the finals" by the way...

[ducks]

I meant playoffs
my bad
take a chill pill

I am at work typing this
you are not

[manu]

um i seriously dont get it
Manu is better than Finley,
We already have a great bench,
then why sit Manu for the rest of the season?

[ducks]

who said the spurs would sit him the rest of the season
rather he starts or comes off the bench he would play the same amount of minutes

[hendrix]

Hey,
argentinians.
Chill the fuck out.

Yo... funny face... (I know you like this type of language)

[hendrix]

I meant playoffs
my bad
take a chill pill

I am at work typing this
you are not

Yes I am. What do you do for a living? Sweep dirt floors? Program a Commodore-64 computer?
I know what you were trying to imply there, duckie.

[ducks]

I was not implying you do not work I just know there is a time differnce and you most likely were not working

I fix computers and run an internet cafe

[T Park]

You argentinians really need to back the fuck off.

[angel_luv]

Thought this was the time for peace on earth.


=)

[hendrix]

You argentinians really need to back the fuck off.

We do? Or what?

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

You argentinians really need to back the fuck off.

If you don't like what you read, you have:

a) The ignore option, where you can block all those bad Argies who post such offensive comments.

b) The option of not entering the thread.

c) The option of reading the thread but not the messages posted by Argentinians, since we are such an evil and biased people.

d) If that's not enough, you can always leave the forum and move somewhere else, a place where people don't take things so seriously (like for example posting in a forum that you are quitting on your team).

The only one who started any kind of controversy here, was you, when you posted your insult. People could make a 10 page thread insulting you, but they don't, different ways I guess.

Personally, I don't really care if Pop makes Manu come from the bench. He will be starting and playing many minutes by the playoffs, as he always did. Leave the regular season for Finley.

[itzsoweezee]

whether manu should come off the bench is not the issue, the issue is whether finley should start. and the answer is clearly no.

[ducks]

so barry should?

[JamesR]

If you don't like what you read, you have:

a) The ignore option, where you can block all those bad Argies who post such offensive comments.

b) The option of not entering the thread.

c) The option of reading the thread but not the messages posted by Argentinians, since we are such an evil and biased people.

d) If that's not enough, you can always leave the forum and move somewhere else, a place where people don't take things so seriously (like for example posting in a forum that you are quitting on your team).

The only one who started any kind of controversy here, was you, when you posted your insult. People could make a 10 page thread insulting you, but they don't, different ways I guess.

Personally, I don't really care if Pop makes Manu come from the bench. He will be starting and playing many minutes by the playoffs, as he always did. Leave the regular season for Finley.


Or maybe the handful of Argentinians making comments like "fatfuck" can chill out and realize that Manu not starting is NOT A DEMOTION! He will still have the same role if not larger! If he comes in without Tony and Tim the Manu will be the focal point of the offense.

And the notion that "Finley doesn't deserve to start" is silly. He's a career 15 PPG scorer and has started his whole career. They both 'deserve' to start, its just a matter of who does.

[JamesR]

whether manu should come off the bench is not the issue, the issue is whether finley should start. and the answer is clearly no.

hows that?

[leemajors]

Or maybe the handful of Argentinians making comments like "fatfuck" can chill out and realize that Manu not starting is NOT A DEMOTION! He will still have the same role if not larger! If he comes in without Tony and Tim the Manu will be the focal point of the offense.

And the notion that "Finley doesn't deserve to start" is silly. He's a career 15 PPG scorer and has started his whole career. They both 'deserve' to start, its just a matter of who does.

there is more of a history between tpark and the argentinian contingent here at spurstalk than you may realize. i am sure none of them particularly care if he starts as long as he gets his minutes. what they resent is the pre-emptive insinuation that they will always blow up about any perceived slight to ginobili. i think it's pretty self-evident that if pop decides ginobili is more effective off the bench it is in no way a demotion. tpark's comments are the insult here.

[pawe]

hey, what's the issue here? argentinians or not u should chill! ur both on the same teams, theres no need for bashful comments..jeez, ur turning into pistons fans. lol (nah, im just kiddin pistons fans..i know u guys have class - peace!)

[doldrums]

I too agree that the Argentinians were provoked, and then when they bite those same posters complain. Easy way to fix it, don't provoke.

[spurschick]

There are clearly new posters here that do not know the history of the Argentine Mafia. Unless you want to go back into the archives and read through some threads involving Manu coming off the bench, I suggest you stay out of it. I'm not saying that as in you don't have a right to contribute, I'm saying that you will end up beating your head against a brick wall.

TPark, you are clearly trying to provoke members of the church. Stop.

[JamesR]

There are clearly new posters here that do not know the history of the Argentine Mafia. Unless you want to go back into the archives and read through some threads involving Manu coming off the bench, I suggest you stay out of it. I'm not saying that as in you don't have a right to contribute, I'm saying that you will end up beating your head against a brick wall.

TPark, you are clearly trying to provoke members of the church. Stop.

I know about how some Argentine fans react toward 'slights' toward Manu, I have 12K posts on another Spur forum. Don't provoke and don't react, both sides are at fault.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

you guys are nuts.

Zanex PLEASE.Well then try to refrain from calling Argentinians bozos PLEASE!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey,

argentinians.

Chill the fuck out.Hey imbecile, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[JamesR]

This is actually kind of funny.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Or maybe the handful of Argentinians making comments like "fatfuck" can chill out and realize that Manu not starting is NOT A DEMOTION! He will still have the same role if not larger! If he comes in without Tony and Tim the Manu will be the focal point of the offense.

And the notion that "Finley doesn't deserve to start" is silly. He's a career 15 PPG scorer and has started his whole career. They both 'deserve' to start, its just a matter of who does.James, the "fat fuck" remark was a response to T Park's "argentine bozos" crap. The guy is an imbecile, he's been one for quite a while now.

about the Manu to the bench subject I have no problem with Pop doing that. Its not like Manu would be less effective. Plus he hasn't been his old self, perhaps bringing him off the bench will wake him up a bit.

[JamesR]

James, the "fat fuck" remark was a response to T Park's "argentine bozos" crap. The guy is an imbecile, he's been one for quite a while now.

Gotcha.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

there is more of a history between tpark and the argentinian contingent here at spurstalk than you may realize. i am sure none of them particularly care if he starts as long as he gets his minutes. what they resent is the pre-emptive insinuation that they will always blow up about any perceived slight to ginobili. i think it's pretty self-evident that if pop decides ginobili is more effective off the bench it is in no way a demotion. tpark's comments are the insult here.http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies2/smitu.bmp

[5ToolMan]

I think the ideal of starting Finley over Manu is very foolish for the Spurs, if for any other reason than to rehab Manu slowly to get him at his best for the playoffs. The Spurs are a defensive first team, and Manu simply puts Finley to shame in his ability and execution of the Spurs defensive scheme. When Manu is ready, as soon as he is ready, he is and needs to be the Spurs starter and finisher.

Once Finley gets used to his needed role off the bench, he would provide the Spurs with needed bench scoring, while not having to play against the other teams best offensive players. The Spurs problems this year have not been in scoring, as much as it has been in getting stops. They have the best shooting percentage in the NBA. Thus, Finley starting can't improve the offense much, and hurts defense and many other positive ways Manu sets the tone.

[TheTruth]

He called them bozos!!!

[Man In Black]

I know that if Tpark started that crap with the Pinoys....We'd be pissed off too.

You could have went to another level and showed some class by not going nationalistic on our friends from Argentina.

Whether you want to diss or not diss, at least recognize that Manu is completely pivotal to the Spurs success. With him, the team is infinitely better. Whether he starts or is the bonafide 6th man, he provides the intensity needed to sustain a victory drive.

I'd prefer that he starts but am cogniscent of the fact that he should do what's best for himself, in terms of getting healthy. Decreased minutes to slowly build him up would probably better for his body given his frenetic style of play. Once he has built up to combat the typical assortment of minor injuries, then we all will see the MAN-U we all appreciate.