Best Backcourt

[Pistons < Spurs]

http://warriors.realgm.com/articles/120/20060102/warriors_backcourt_best_in_nba_%E2%80%93_after_det roits/

Warriors’ Backcourt Best In NBA – After Detroit’s

The Warriors’ backcourt of Baron Davis and Jason Richardson is the NBA’s best after the Pistons combo of Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups, and I will tell you why.

The other night when the Warriors’ backcourt combined for 66 in a win at Dallas, I received a text message from my friend, and it said, “You just saw the best backcourt in the league,” and that got me thinking.

I’ve always felt that the Warriors’ tandem was perhaps the most talented, but never one of the best when it came to winning and losing.

After all, how can you compare a backcourt that hasn’t a played a full season together to Billups and Hamilton, or Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, both of whom have won titles?

If you’ve watched the Warriors play the last week, one would understand why. Their backcourt does more with less.

Before I go on, let me acknowledge that there are other good backcourts out there – Iverson/Iguodala, Kidd/Carter, Cassell/Mobley, Hinrich/Gordon, Arenas/Butler, Kobe/whoever, Nash/whoever – but for the sake of this column, let’s just say the Warriors’ toughest competition are the Pistons and Spurs backcourts.

Let’s take a look at each:

Billups & Hamilton – It’s easy to point to their 24-4 record and the two finals appearances and say case closed. But let me ask one question: If they had to play with Davis and Richardson’s supporting cast, would they be better than 17-14 (the Warriors’ current record)?

Probably so, but not by much. And the only reason I’d put this backcourt ahead of the Warriors’ combo is the fact that both Billups and Hamilton are having career years.

Billups is averaging almost twice as many assists (8.4) over his career average (4.8), and his scoring average (19.0) is over two points above his previous best of 16.9 in 2003-04. But how much of that should be credited to his situation and how much is the fact he’s become that good?

I think it’s a little of both. I remember not too long ago when Billups was a struggling point guard who played for three teams in his first two seasons before finally settling in Detroit in year six. He elevated his game with the Pistons, becoming one of the most clutch players in the league.


No question Billups is much better than the guy we watched in Minnesota. But I also think his field-goal and 3-point percentages wouldn’t be as good on a lesser team where he’d have to force some shots.

Hamilton continues to be one of the most underrated players in the league. He leads the Pistons in scoring (21.7 ppg) while shooting a remarkable 50 percent from the field and 47 percent from downtown, both career highs.

This is the best backcourt in the league, but not by much.

Their supporting cast allows them to be the best. Either Wallace (Ben or Rasheed) is better than any frontcourt player the Warriors have. Teyshaun Prince’s versatility and defense make the guards better. For one, they know that Prince will usually guard the opposing team’s best player. Which brings me to…

Parker & Ginobili – Like the Detroit combo, these guys have Bruce Bowen to take pressure off on the defensive end, a luxury Davis and Richardson don’t have.

As a matter of fact, Davis and Richardson have to be the team’s best defenders as well as leading scorers. Forwards Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy are below average on defense, and Ike Diogu is undersized for a center.

Parker and Ginobili don’t have to worry about that. Bowen is arguably the league’s best perimeter defender, and Duncan is one of the best interior defenders (just as Ben Wallace is for Detroit). Speaking of Duncan, he’s pretty good, one of those superstars that makes everybody around him better.

Ginobili and Parker are part of that “everybody.” Give Parker and Ginobili the Warriors’ supporting cast and ask yourself if they would be better than 17-14? I doubt it.

For point guards, nobody is better than Parker at getting to the basket and finishing. But if Parker didn’t have Duncan, teams would focus on stopping him, as they do now with Baron.

Same with Ginobili. Don’t get me wrong, Manu is one of my favorite players to watch, and he may be slightly better than Richardson, but not this season. Not with his injuries and Richardson’s level of play so far.

Here’s a quick breakdown of the three backcourts:
Davis/Richardson: 40.8 points, 10.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists, 41% FG
Billups/Hamilton: 40.7 points, 6.5 rebounds, 11.2 assists, 47% FG
Parker/Ginobili: 34.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 52% FG

Some of the Warriors’ bad FG% has to be attributed to the lack of supporting cast and inside game, forcing the Warriors’ duo to take more bad shots.

Which brings me to rebounding. The Warriors are one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, meaning Davis and Richardson must help out on the boards. The increased burden on defense and rebounding take a lot out of a player.

Simply put, the Warriors’ tandem has to play well for the Warriors to win. They also have to do more things than the other tandems.

One could say the same about the Iverson/ Iguodala and Kobe/Parker backcourts, but those duos are dominated by one player. Kobe is the best guard in the league, but any starting backcourt with Smush Parker cannot be considered the best, I’m sorry.

The Warriors’ 17-14 record is pretty remarkable considering the lack of frontcourt production (I know Murphy puts up good numbers, but he’s a perimeter player). If you watched their last three games – all wins vs. Boston, at Dallas and at Houston – it’s hard to imagine a backcourt tandem playing any better than those two.

Here are my top backcourts right now:
1. Billups & Hamilton, Pistons
2. Davis & Richardson, Warriors
3. Parker & Ginobili, Spurs
4. Iverson & Iguodala, 76ers
5. Kidd & Carter, Nets

[exstatic]

GS's combo can score, but as for "having to play defense when the other teams have stoppers", I haven't seen it yet. They snag a few steals, but neither is that difficult to score on. It's probably why their team loses on a regular basis.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

if we got rid of barry and beno and reacquired speedy claxton we'd probably have the best backcourt, counting bench players

[ajh18]

I looked at these combinations, and I was suprised to see that for the most part, statistically at least, the Warriors backcourt is probably the most productive. Personally though, I believe that the Nets backcourt of Carter and Kidd is best, and I've added their statistics to the list. Put Carter and Kidd on that Warriors team, and I think Golden State would have a BETTER record than they do now, as Carter and Kidd have less of an interior presence than the Warriors do to make their jobs easier.

Davis/Richardson: 40.8 points, 10.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists, 41% FG
Billups/Hamilton: 40.7 points, 6.5 rebounds, 11.2 assists, 47% FG
Parker/Ginobili: 34.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 52% FG
Kidd/Carter: 38.8 points, 12.9 rebounds, 11.8 assists, 43% FG

Parker and Manu though, get Ginbobili back to his form from last year and keep parker playing like he is, and I'll take our backcourt long-term over anyone.

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs' backcourt is the only one with a hall of famer in the frontcourt, so just throwing out numbers is terribly misleading. I'll take a healthy Parker and Ginobili over any other tandem in the league.

[T Park]

a healthy Parker and Ginobili over any other tandem in the league.



I dunno.

Billups and Hamilton are pretty damn good.

[Obstructed_View]

I dunno.

Billups and Hamilton are pretty damn good.
I agree. I'd take them in a heartbeat if I couldn't have P&G.

[xcoriate]

Billups is the real deal.

Hamilton I'm still not sold on... I dunno maybe its cause I only really get to see him against Bruce.

Chauncey though... sick.

[Rummpd]

Recall that Parker and company owned GS last time out, period.

[DarkReign]

Billups is the real deal.

Hamilton I'm still not sold on... I dunno maybe its cause I only really get to see him against Bruce.

Chauncey though... sick.

Bowen owns everyone. Seriously underrated DPoTY

Hamilton has his worst games against him.

So does Kobe, Wade, Carter, McGrady, Nowitzski (?!)....

[1Parker1]

Here’s a quick breakdown of the three backcourts:
Davis/Richardson: 40.8 points, 10.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists, 41% FG
Billups/Hamilton: 40.7 points, 6.5 rebounds, 11.2 assists, 47% FG
Parker/Ginobili: 34.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 52% FG

These stats are a little misleading. Sure the Davis/Richardson combo scores roughly 6 points more, but look at their FG%! 41% compared to 47% and 52%...that's a huge difference. If Manu and Tony took that many shots ill advised shots between them, they'd average more poitns also.

My ranking:

1) Billups/Hamilton
2) Kidd/Carter
3) Parker/Ginobili
4) Everyone else....:lol

[1Parker1]

Also, the comment that Manu and Parker don't have to worry about being good defenders...? Pop won't let you play, much less start, if you don't play good defense!

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Recall that Parker and company owned GS last time out, period.

My thoughts exactly Doc. And that was WITHOUT Manu, Tim or Rasho.

Parker/Barry > Davis/Richardson

And that Davis/Richardson defense argument was pulled completely out of that guy's Oakland (most likely after a late night of huffing poppers to Bronski Beat across the bay). How many points did the Duncanless, Ginobililess Spurs rack up in that double OT game last year? 136 points.

I unclog my nose at this article.

[hendrix]

These stats are a little misleading. Sure the Davis/Richardson combo scores roughly 6 points more, but look at their FG%! 41% compared to 47% and 52%...that's a huge difference. If Manu and Tony took that many shots ill advised shots between them, they'd average more poitns also.


52 FG% basicly from layups. If Parker took more jumpshots, the FG% would be 33% or less.
I know you're not reading this, because you dont accept critics to "your" boy. Thats why I bash him, beacuse you view his level of play based on "looks".
And yeah... TPark... you're gay.
:lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'll wait until Baron manages to play 82 games before I put him in the same ball park as Billups and Parker, who haven't missed much time to injury in last few years. Davis can give you great numbers, but if you're only getting them for 50-60 games a season that takes some of the luster off of them.

[Rummpd]

What the heck difference it makes if Parker scores going to the hole, ala Wade or on jumpers - he scores, and right now BD absolutely stinks in that area despite the columists arguement that it is due to weakness on the team. If Parker shot 36% we would be screaming for his head.

Plus the bottom line is Parker and Ginobili have 2 titles - wake me when the others can put that on their resume (Billups and Hamilton only ones with a legit chance anytime soon).

[Phenomanul]

I looked at these combinations, and I was suprised to see that for the most part, statistically at least, the Warriors backcourt is probably the most productive. Personally though, I believe that the Nets backcourt of Carter and Kidd is best, and I've added their statistics to the list. Put Carter and Kidd on that Warriors team, and I think Golden State would have a BETTER record than they do now, as Carter and Kidd have less of an interior presence than the Warriors do to make their jobs easier.

Davis/Richardson: 40.8 points, 10.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists, 41% FG
Billups/Hamilton: 40.7 points, 6.5 rebounds, 11.2 assists, 47% FG
Parker/Ginobili: 34.6 points, 8.2 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 52% FG
Kidd/Carter: 38.8 points, 12.9 rebounds, 11.8 assists, 43% FG

Parker and Manu though, get Ginbobili back to his form from last year and keep parker playing like he is, and I'll take our backcourt long-term over anyone.

I wonder what the shots per game , and free-throw made/missed statistics look like for the above guard tandems....

[boutons_]

Tony and Manu have 2 Titles because of Tim and Pop's defense, advantages the other PG/SG pairs haven't had.

[leemajors]

pistons have been to two finals themselves.

[picnroll]

Adjusted to playing equal minutes (same minutes as Davis/Richardson who play the most):

Davis/Richardson: 40.8 points, 10.7 rebounds, 12.2 assists, 41% FG
Billups/Hamilton: 43.0 points, 6.9 rebounds, 11.8 assists, 47% FG
Parker/Ginobili: 42.7 points, 10.1 rebounds, 11.6 assists, 52% FG
Kidd/Carter: 40.5 points, 13.5 rebounds, 12.3 assists, 43% FG

[Solid D]

Don't forget that any backcourt garnish/parsley that goes with Iverson or Kobe automatically makes the Sixers and Lakers backcourts in the top echelon.

[Rummpd]

"Tony and Manu have 2 Titles because of Tim and Pop's defense, advantages the other PG/SG pairs haven't had."


As great as Duncan is you cannot ignore particularily Manu's contribution last year and Parker for all his up and down has had some monster playoff games as well and appears to be a steadier player this year.

That is like not giving Magic Johnson some substantial credit as he had Jabbar and Worthy up front.

I would not trade this backcourt for any in the league, except perhaps the Pistons, and I would have to think real hard about that one - they are both fine backcourts with great upsides and all 4 players have shown the capacity to truly dominate games.

In addition, right now both backcourts (Spurs and Pistons) are relative bargins with no max salary players.

( I do believe that Billups and Ginobili would be "sickest" of all due to the clutchness factor)

These backcourts are a big part of the picture why these two teams have been in the last 3 finals and may well face up again.

[boutons_]

I'm not taking anything away from Tony and Manu, nor do I want any other f/c.

I'm just saying that the Tony/Manu b/c w/o Tim and w/o Pop's insistence on defense wouldn't have resulting in 03, 05 Titles.

eg, substitute those other b/c's for Tony/Manu and you could probably end up with pretty much the same Spurs results.

Or substitute Tony+Manu for the other f/c's, you wouldn't get two Titles for the other teams.

[1Parker1]

52 FG% basicly from layups. If Parker took more jumpshots, the FG% would be 33% or less.
I know you're not reading this, because you dont accept critics to "your" boy. Thats why I bash him, beacuse you view his level of play based on "looks".
And yeah... TPark... you're gay.
:lol


:wtf TPark is not 1Parker1................I'm female, he's male. He's in SA, I live in Philly. And I don't know where you get off thinking that I vew "my boy's level of play on looks."

[thispego]

I'm not taking anything away from Tony and Manu, nor do I want any other f/c.

I'm just saying that the Tony/Manu b/c w/o Tim and w/o Pop's insistence on defense wouldn't have resulting in 03, 05 Titles.

eg, substitute those other b/c's for Tony/Manu and you could probably end up with pretty much the same Spurs results.

Or substitute Tony+Manu for the other f/c's, you wouldn't get two Titles for the other teams.
i lik eht ole boutons better

[Rummpd]

1Parker1 - I live near Philly too (Wayne) and nice to know there is a smart Spurs fan like you around!

[1Parker1]

1Parker1 - I live near Philly too (Wayne) and nice to know there is a smart Spurs fan like you around!


:lol I live around center city! Alvarez also is from Philly...but he's not a smart SPurs fan like us, he's just a regular ol fan :angel

[ShoogarBear]

Either one of you throw stuff at Clinton Portis' mom on Sunday? :makemyday

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I have said it once or maybe twice, and I will fucking say it again.

The 2nd most contributing factor to Billups and Hamilton being such stone cold bad asses that they are is their free throw shooting. Yes, I think they're the best backcourt after seeing them up close and personal for the Finals, but I still think Manu and Parker would own their chodes in 2 on 2.

If Manu and Parker shot 90% freakin free throws they'd be the best back court of this era of the NBA.

[ShoogarBear]

That's a nice point about using FT% to deciding between the two.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hey man im serious...You foul billups, hamilton, its pretty much a bonehead move...you foul parker and its a good foul.

[ShoogarBear]

I was agreeing with you. I can be serious sometimes.

[E20]

The problem with GS backcourt is they don't play defense, that is one thing that SA's backcourt has on them. For the FG% Manu's and Tonys' points all come from high percantage areas unlike the Baron and JRich. Besides the FG% Rich/Baron offensively are better than Manu and Tony and also consider the fact for GS that their guards average more steals, rebounds, and blocks. These are just stats though the Spurs do definitely carry the intangibles.

[JamStone]

Athleticism: Baron Davis and Jason Richardson
Talent: Jason Kidd and Vince Carter
Intangibles: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili
Chemistry: Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton

[jochhejaam]

Pistons 108 - Orlando 99
Chauncey and Rip combined 62 pts.
Chaucey 37 pts (reg season career high) and 9 assists)
Hamilton 25 pts

Steve Francis 9 pts

[z0sa]

So far, everyone agrees: Billups > Parker, and Ginobili > Hamilton. So who's better: Billups or Ginobili? Thats why I like to think that our backcourt is better overall than Detroit's. Remember last year with Parker on him Hamilton missed badly in Game 5. Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on.

So in other words, I think right now Billups/Hamilton is the best in the league. But come playoff time and minus the injuries, I think we have the best backcourt in the league. But, that said, GS is up there with us and Detroit, as well as NJ.

[ShoogarBear]

Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on.
:wtf

I'm willing to bet over the last two years Rip has hit as many clutch shots as Manu.

I can certainly think of more game winners at the buzzer for Rip than Manu.

[E20]

:wtf

I'm willing to bet over the last two years Rip has hit as many clutch shots as Manu.

I can certainly think of more game winners at the buzzer for Rip than Manu.
Hamiltions had two these year.

[ShoogarBear]

Hamiltions had two these year.Shit, he's hit two just against the Celtics, hasn't he?

[Sense]

:wtf TPark is not 1Parker1................I'm female, he's male. He's in SA, I live in Philly. And I don't know where you get off thinking that I vew "my boy's level of play on looks."


:lol yeah Hendrix made himself look like a retard on that one.

[FreshPrince22]

Remember last year with Parker on him Hamilton missed badly in Game 5. Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on.


Rip is a very clutch shooter as long as he isn't forced to create the shot on his own. But that doesn't mean he isn't a clutch shooter. Remember the '98 NCAA tournament? That's just one that actually meant something (meaning not a regular season game).

Robert Horry doesn't "create" his own shot on those big shots he hits, yet he is one of the most clutch players in the game. Also, Part of the reason you wouldn't point him out as being particularly clutch is because he's got Chauncey next to him who would be the go to guy on practically every team in the league for a big shot.

[z0sa]

I didn't say Manu makes clutch shots, I said hes more clutch as a player. You can give him the ball with the time running low and you can be sure he'll put the ball where it needs to be: either in the hole himself or in a teammates hands who can score. Rip doesn't have that ability, rather, he needs his teammates to get him open for the shot. Thats why I think Manu is more clutch. Game 6 against Seattle anyone?

[FreshPrince22]

I didn't say Manu makes clutch shots, I said hes more clutch as a player. You can give him the ball with the time running low and you can be sure he'll put the ball where it needs to be: either in the hole himself or in a teammates hands who can score. Rip doesn't have that ability, rather, he needs his teammates to get him open for the shot. Thats why I think Manu is more clutch. Game 6 against Seattle anyone?

Disclaimer: I am replying to you saying Rip is not a clutch player in your originial post, not debating who is more clutch.

Pretty flawed logic there. First, by that definition (as I said), that would mean Robert Horry isn't a "clutch player". Since he needs his teammates to get him that open shot.

Second, Rip has Chauncey next to him, so Rip will always be a 2nd option to make the "clutch play". Just as Manu would be if he was next to Chauncey. Chauncey is the best guy in the NBA at making decisions in crunch time so the ball will always be in his hands. Would you say Manu isn't clutch in that situation, just because the ball isn't in his hands to make that play?

Also, You called Rip a "Good Scorer" but not "When the pressure's on". That means you think he's a good scorer, but he can't do what he normally does during the course of the game, in the clutch. Which really isn't the case. Catch and shoot is his game, and that mid-range jumper is even more deadly in crunch time. He has sealed many many games for us on that catch-and-shoot 15 footer.

I'm not saying Manu isn't clutch, but I am arguing your original point that Rip ISN'T a clutch player. He is just clutch in a different way. Rip is a deadly catch and shoot guy in the clutch. Just like Manu is a deadly slash to the basket guy in the clutch. It's really apples to oranges. They are completely different types of players who do different things.

[SequSpur]

GS's combo can score, but as for "having to play defense when the other teams have stoppers", I haven't seen it yet. They snag a few steals, but neither is that difficult to score on. It's probably why their team loses on a regular basis.

Its all about the O bro... always has been, always will be...

[Man In Black]

No, I agree with z0sa.

I applaud Rip's defensive skills, his never ending cycle of picks and rubs to get free for a good shot.

But throughout Rip's career, he has never been seen as one who can create for others. He might make the occasional pass to victory, normally to Billups but he hasn't clearly established a penchant for finding ways to contribute besides his solid play at D and money jumpshot.

Ginobili has a large portfolio of making all teams that he has played for better. Every team he's been on, he has won at the top for every one.

It's just that he'll never look to call his own number 1st. He'll go through the play and then go with what he feels is the best choice. More times than not, it'll be a pass to the correct guy but even when he is forced to shoot, he makes more of those than he misses.

So again, props to Rip, but Manu has the ability to take his game to a whole 'nother level when the situation calls for it.

[FreshPrince22]

Man in Black,

Again, I was not trying call Rip more clutch than Manu, but z0sa's original post said:


Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on

Which is completely false. Makes it sound like he's money during the game, then all of a sudden he chokes during crunch time. When in fact he is even better at what he does in the clutch.

Though z0sa started to spin his point in his next post by saying Rip isn't "as clutch", but I never argued that. I still think they're both clutch at what they do.

[SequSpur]

I lived in Denver when Chauncy Billups played high school there. The dude was so famous, his games were on local TV. Dude was unstoppable... I am not surprised he is a stud in the NBA.

[z0sa]

Ginobili can always be called for in the clutch, which I wouldn't give Hamilton. Hamilton is a good scorer when the pressure ISN'T on

What I'm saying here is that you can't call on Rip for every late game situation. If a team makes a point to stop him, they can. He can't make his own shot. Thats what I mean by hes a good scorer when the pressure isn't on. When teams try to defend him during the course of the game with him running around screens and curls and whatnot, usually his man gets bumped off and hes free for the open shot. But if its late and Rip is curling around a screen, teams will help on D and hes either denied the pass or forced into a bad shot - Rip has never been known as a clutch passer.

Now, Manu you can give the ball, let him run down the shot clock (if necessary), and then let him make his move, drawing the defense in for a pass to an open man or allowing Manu at least an alright look at the basket. I'm not saying so much that neither is clutch, its just more like Manu is so more able to produce in the clutch, both defensively and offensively. To me, Rip is too one-dimensional and while hes the best at his game of running on screens, he CAN be stopped. Manu its a whole different story.

[FreshPrince22]

To me, Rip is too one-dimensional and while hes the best at his game of running on screens, he CAN be stopped. Manu its a whole different story.

You have a pretty bad perspective on this as a Spurs fan. Since Bowen is the only guy in the league that "stops" Rip. He can occasionally have a bad shooting night against someone else, but it's rarely because of the defense. He gets pretty much the same looks every game. I'd be willing to be that if Manu had to go against Bowen he could be stopped as well. Luckily for him, he doesn't have to.

[velik_m]

After all, how can you compare a backcourt that hasn?t a played a full season together to Billups and Hamilton, or Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, both of whom have won titles?

that pretty much sums it up.

[JamStone]

No, I agree with z0sa.

I applaud Rip's defensive skills, his never ending cycle of picks and rubs to get free for a good shot.

But throughout Rip's career, he has never been seen as one who can create for others. He might make the occasional pass to victory, normally to Billups but he hasn't clearly established a penchant for finding ways to contribute besides his solid play at D and money jumpshot.

Last season, Rip averaged 4.9 asists per game ... Manu averaged 3.9 asists per game. To say that Rip cannot create for others is to pigeonhold him into a stereotype of your own perception of him based on what you have seen from time to time. His primary focus has always been to score first. It's one of the major responsibilities for a "shooting" guard. And, with a point guard who is able to create, you can understand better why Rip focuses more on scoring. With Manu, he has taken the responsibility of creating for others more than Rip does because his point guard, Parker, focuses on scoring more than creating for others. It's a product of the system and the pieces you have around you.



Ginobili has a large portfolio of making all teams that he has played for better. Every team he's been on, he has won at the top for every one.

Rip led UConn to an NCAA championship. Rip was the MOP of that tournament in 1999. And, he made plenty of clutch shots during that tournament run. Manu is phenomenal, but I don't know if you can make the distinction between him and Rip by saying that Manu wins at every level.



It's just that he'll never look to call his own number 1st. He'll go through the play and then go with what he feels is the best choice. More times than not, it'll be a pass to the correct guy but even when he is forced to shoot, he makes more of those than he misses.

So again, props to Rip, but Manu has the ability to take his game to a whole 'nother level when the situation calls for it.

Since most of you Spurs fans concentrate on the Western Conference, perhaps you have not seen as many Pistons games in the playoffs until the finals. In 2004, Rip took his game to a "whole 'nother level" against the Indiana Pacers in the ECF that year. When the Pistons and Pacers were playing games in the 70s, Rip was one of the few players that was consistently putting the basketball in the hole. Had it not been for Chauncey's great series against the Lakers, Rip probably would have been the MVP of the Finals that year. Rip made plenty of "clutch plays" in that 2004 post season. He made a virtual game-winning shot against Jason Kidd in the Nets series. He took over in the Indiana series, and even drew the flagrant foul on Ron Artest that, along with the Prince block on Reggie, turned the tide of that series.


Manu Ginobili is unbelievable. I don't think many would disagree with that notion. But, I think some of you severely underestimate Rip Hamilton as a big time player in clutch situations. The fact that Rip is not a traditional one-on-one scorer who can take anyone off the dribble does not deny the fact that he can make big plays in important situations. I know the cliche and overused comparison, but Reggie Miller did not create for others and did not have great one-on-one skills, but no one would deny that he would make the big play in the clutch. It just happened to usually be a 3-pointer. Rip is much the same way that it is usually a midrange shot off of a curl screen. Two points is two points, whether you crossover and make a reverse lay-up avoiding a shot blocker or if you come off of a screen and can a 15 foot jumper. It counts the same. And, in pressure situations, both are of equal value.

[JamStone]

What I'm saying here is that you can't call on Rip for every late game situation. If a team makes a point to stop him, they can. He can't make his own shot. Thats what I mean by hes a good scorer when the pressure isn't on. When teams try to defend him during the course of the game with him running around screens and curls and whatnot, usually his man gets bumped off and hes free for the open shot. But if its late and Rip is curling around a screen, teams will help on D and hes either denied the pass or forced into a bad shot - Rip has never been known as a clutch passer.

If Rip is stoppable, teams would make it a point to stop him as much as possible. That not being the case, Rip is averaging over 20 ppg on over 50% shooting, most of which are jumpers. Rip has made big shots in the playoffs against good defenses. He even had one of his best series against Ron Artest and the Indiana Pacers in the 2004 ECF. Bruce Bowen happens to guard Rip better than anyone else in the league. Is there really shame in that? Does that really mean Rip can't score when the pressure is on? Ever heard of the NCAA tournament for men's college basketball? No pressure there. How about the NBA finals? No pressure?

Rip might not be a clutch passer. But, he hasn't really been asked to do that. Pretty hard to create for others when the point guard has the basketball in his hands at the end of games. Chauncey is so good at the end of games that Rip isn't generally asked to create for others. Chauncey will either shoot or pass. Rip is usually the first or second option to SHOOT the basketball, not pass. And, Rip is so good at coming off screens, that he generally gets a decent look at a jumper, so he does NOT need to pass the ball when he gets it.



Now, Manu you can give the ball, let him run down the shot clock (if necessary), and then let him make his move, drawing the defense in for a pass to an open man or allowing Manu at least an alright look at the basket. I'm not saying so much that neither is clutch, its just more like Manu is so more able to produce in the clutch, both defensively and offensively. To me, Rip is too one-dimensional and while hes the best at his game of running on screens, he CAN be stopped. Manu its a whole different story.

The way you describe Manu applies to Chauncey Billups for the Pistons. He is given the ball at the top of the key at the end of close games. He either shoots or creates a shot for someone else. Given opportunities, Rip has done pretty well himself in scoring baskets in PRESSURE situations. I'm guessing you don't watch too many Pistons games to know that. But, it's very much true. As for Manu producing in the clutch defensively, ummm ok. He's a great player and works hard at both ends of the court. And, he's just as likely to make a great steal as he is to make a big shot. I wouldn't deny that. I wouldn't deny that Manu is better defensively than Rip. But, late in the game, the Spurs call on Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan to make the necessary stops at the defensive end ... just like the Pistons call on Tayshaun Prince and Ben Wallace to do. Rip is not the best defender in the game at his position. But, late in games when the game is on the line and the Pistons need to make a stop, he is often in the game. He is not a liability on defense as perhaps your post might implicitly suggest.


Is Manu more clutch than Rip? Probably. But, I greatly disagree with the notion that Rip cannot score when the pressure is on or that he can be stopped by any team. That is a false conclusion based loosely on your opinion because of what you have seen in games between the Pistons and Spurs. Bruce has been great against Rip. But, don't believe for a minute that Bruce could stop Rip EVERY single time or that Rip is not clutch under pressure. It would be a misconception.

[Phenomanul]

Good assessment JamStone

[ShoogarBear]

I know the cliche and overused comparison, but Reggie Miller did not create for others and did not have great one-on-one skills, but no one would deny that he would make the big play in the clutch.

Precisely.

The problem is that a lot of people in this forum have no objectivity when it comes to anything involving Manu. He's got to be the best at it and nobody else can dare to compare with him.

Rip and Chauncey are both clutch. I don't feel good when the ball is in either one of their hands and the clock is winding down.

[z0sa]

I agree Rip is clutch, and I never said ANY team could stop him - I think most teams can't stop him no matter how hard they try! But come playoff time, which is what I've been focusing on if you read my earlier posts, Rip is just not the same clutch player that Manu is. This has nothing to do with Chauncey or Parker, it has to do with who makes the big basket or pass in crunchtime. If there was no Chauncey could you call on Rip like we call on Manu?

Now I said earlier Rip has raised his assists and is definitely making the extra pass - but like I said, is he known to be a clutch passer? But really - after tonights show from Manu (whos still partially injured), I really don't feel like comparing the two anymore ... not that Manu is out of Rip's league or vice versa, just they are both two different players who use different methods to score. I just think Manu is the more clutch of the two thanks to better court vision and an adept ability to get to the basket and make big plays.

[Rummpd]

All four of these players are great and any combination of Parker - Ginobili, Parker - Hamilton, Billups - Hamilton or Billups - Ginobili (my favorite) would still keep either team very strong.


Apples to oranges.