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xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 09:50 AM
Do you recognize the storyline that is occuring here in San Antonio when
you read this article? Like a shortage of water "nowdays". Government
Canyon. Building power lines: not in my sight!



Green lies
By Thomas Sowell

Jan 5, 2006


Not often do Rush Limbaugh and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman agree on anything but recently both of them pointed out the same pattern in the prices of housing -- and both were correct.

The pattern is this: Despite hysteria over high home prices, in most parts of the United States housing is quite affordable. But in some places housing prices are astronomical -- three times the national average in much of California, for example.

Despite the old rule of thumb that housing should cost no more than one fourth of your income, there are parts of California where tenants and new home buyers pay at least half their incomes for housing.

This can be a serious problem in such places because it means that only the other half of people's income is available to pay for such frills as food and clothing.

These dire situations are more likely to be featured in the media, partly because bad news sells newspapers and gets higher television ratings. Moreover, media elites are more likely to be living in the places where housing prices are out of sight -- places like Manhattan, coastal California, and the posh suburbs around Washington or various other cities.

It is a very different story in most of the rest of the country. A scholarly study published in the October 2005 issue of the Journal of Law and Economics concluded: "In the sprawling cities of the American heartland, land remains cheap, real construction costs are falling, and expanding supply keeps housing costs low."

In some cities, housing prices have actually declined as the housing supply has expanded. None of this is rocket science. It is supply and demand.

Why then are there particular places where housing costs have skyrocketed?

In those places, much of the land is prevented by law from being used to build housing. These land use restrictions are seldom called land use restrictions.

They are called by much prettier names, like "open space" laws, laws to "preserve farmland" or prevent "sprawl," "greenbelt" laws -- or whatever else will sell politically.

People who already own their own homes don't worry about whether such laws will drive housing prices sky high. Somebody else will have to pay those prices while existing homeowners see the value of their property rise by leaps and bounds.

Meanwhile, land that might otherwise provide homes for others becomes in effect free park land for themselves, while such upscale communities use "open space" laws to keep out the masses. The crowning touch is that such self-interest is depicted as idealism.

A famous economist named Joseph Schumpeter once said that the first thing someone will do for his ideals is lie. Some people distinguish little white lies from black lies but the biggest lies of all are green lies.

To hear environmental zealots tell it, they are just trying to save the last few patches of greenery from being paved over. But in fact the land area of the United States covered by forests is more than three times as large as the land area covered by all the cities and towns across the nation.

Only about 5 percent of the land is urban. In other words, you could double the size of every city and town in America and still nine-tenths of the land would be undeveloped.

Some of the biggest hysteria about "saving" land is found in places where most of the land is already off-limits to building. Some of the biggest crocodile tears about a need to "preserve farmland" come from people who are not farmers, and who know little and care less about farming.

Chronic agricultural surpluses that cost the taxpayers billions show that there is too much farmland producing more than the market can absorb, while the growing of these surplus crops puts all sorts of chemicals into the ground, water, and air. But the green liars don't mention that.

Their real agenda is keeping out other people. Home builders who would enable other people to move into their community are called selfish and greedy. Green liars consider themselves morally far superior to "developers."

Ocotillo
01-05-2006, 03:28 PM
OK, I'll buy the land next to Tom Sowell and put up a mobile home and park some junk cars in the yard. If he doesn't like it, move.

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 04:30 PM
OK, I'll buy the land next to Tom Sowell and put up a mobile home and park some junk cars in the yard. If he doesn't like it, move.

If you own it, guess you can. But you do realize there have been zoning
laws for years. Go to California and "try" buying a house. Then come
talk to me. :spin

ChumpDumper
01-05-2006, 04:38 PM
Gee, housing on the coast costs more?

Might that have something to do with not being able to build in the ocean?

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 05:17 PM
Gee, housing on the coast costs more?

Might that have something to do with not being able to build in the ocean?


What is your point? Your post makes no sense.

And have you been there and seen the area?

SA210
01-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Xray seems to tell everyone that They make no sense.

Does anyone recognize a trend?

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 05:23 PM
You don't most times.


Bush is evil
Bush takes bribes
People who live under bridges wonderful
Don't criticize me, you hurt my feelings
I know a good editorial cartoon to cover this
You never quote facts (if you do I ignore them)
You hurt my feelings
Don't question our motives
You are evil

SA210
01-05-2006, 05:30 PM
You don't most times.


Bush is evil
Bush takes bribes
People who live under bridges wonderful
Don't criticize me, you hurt my feelings
I know a good editorial cartoon to cover this
You never quote facts (if you do I ignore them)
You hurt my feelings
Don't question our motives
You are evil
What a way to exxagerate and lie about things I say.

To clarify, Bush Is evil, Some People under bridges need Help, editorial cartoons are funny and are to the point and add more substance than any of your jibberish, and never said you hurt my feelings.

But nice try, avoiding facts :tu

Extra Stout
01-05-2006, 05:41 PM
What is your point? Your post makes no sense.

And have you been there and seen the area?

When you have a city on the coast, whose downtown area is near the water, there is only half as much land available for development as in an inland city, at least within a given radius of downtown.

Also, in some cities, mountains get in the way as well.

These conspire to restrict the land available to build houses even before liberals get involved.

Certainly this is the case with California cities. LA and SD are wedged in between the Pacific and the Coast Ranges.

Seattle is in the same predicament.

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 05:45 PM
When you have a city on the coast, whose downtown area is near the water, there is only half as much land available for development as in an inland city, at least within a given radius of downtown.

Also, in some cities, mountains get in the way as well.

These conspire to restrict the land available to build houses even before liberals get involved.

Certainly this is the case with California cities. LA and SD are wedged in between the Pacific and the Coast Ranges.

Seattle is in the same predicament.

You know there is much vacant land there. Really. Just left there in
August. And another sad fact, they wont let people clear brush to
stop fires. I am not kidding. And you know you can build on mountain
sides.

SA210
01-05-2006, 05:55 PM
And another sad fact, they wont let people clear brush

I guess Dubya won't be going there.

ChumpDumper
01-05-2006, 06:05 PM
What is your point? Your post makes no sense.

And have you been there and seen the area?I lived in Santa Barbara for five years.

Yes, there is an ocean there.

Mountains too.

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 06:13 PM
I lived in Santa Barbara for five years.

Yes, there is an ocean there.

Mountains too.

Yeah, you post like you still live there. Want another proposition.
Real democracy in action. California. Lets all vote on the local
Wal-Mart store coming to town.

ChumpDumper
01-05-2006, 06:15 PM
Want another proposition.One written by Fess Parker or Arnold?

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 06:17 PM
One written by Fess Parker or Arnold?

Does it make a difference, they only have about 10-15 every month or
so they vote on. Well it seemed that way. I may be exaggerating.

ChumpDumper
01-05-2006, 06:21 PM
Does it make a difference, they only have about 10-15 every month or
so they vote on. Well it seemed that way. I may be exaggerating.They have several. It's an interesting attempt at direct democracy and has proven to be somewhat resistant to hijacking by the aforementioned parties, for example. It can be a bit much I suppose, but if you're serious about it you get very educated about the issues at hand.

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 06:26 PM
They have several. It's an interesting attempt at direct democracy and has proven to be somewhat resistant to hijacking by the aforementioned parties, for example. It can be a bit much I suppose, but if you're serious about it you get very educated about the issues at hand.

Unfortuantely you are right. I don't really understand your statement:
"resistant to hijacking by the aforementioned parties". But knowing me
I would be in a worst fix had I lived there and participated in some of
the elections. :lol

ChumpDumper
01-05-2006, 06:34 PM
Well, Arnold and Davy Crockett tried passing initiatives that went against the grass-roots spirit for which the process was originally intended. They were pretty transparent and easily defeated though. Others can be pretty obscure and strangely written so you can't even tell what you're voting for. It can be tricky stuff, but you can't expect anything else in politics, can you?

xrayzebra
01-05-2006, 06:37 PM
Well, Arnold and Davy Crockett tried passing initiatives that went against the grass-roots spirit for which the process was originally intended. They were pretty transparent and easily defeated though. Others can be pretty obscure and strangely written so you can't even tell what you're voting for. It can be tricky stuff, but you can't expect anything else in politics, can you?


Hey that is the politicians claim to fame, obscurity and strange. I don't care
what party they belong to. You just have to try a read between the lines.
Ant easy sometimes. :lol

Ocotillo
01-06-2006, 08:32 AM
If you own it, guess you can. But you do realize there have been zoning
laws for years. Go to California and "try" buying a house. Then come
talk to me. :spin

That was what I was driving at. It all depends on whose ox is being gored. I could by a lot in the Dominion but due to restrictions I can't do what I want with my land. If there was total freedom, I could raise goats and camels in the yard.

Same thing when land use is restricted because of environmental reasons. I believe good ole supply and demand have to do more with the cost of real estate in places like Californina, Miami and Manhattan.