Anyone still think the Suns defense not improved?

[SirChaz]

Spurs shot 41% for the game.

That was an ugly, ugly game tonight but the Suns found a way to get some stops when they needed them.

[Tek_XX]

We missed to many wide open shots.

[infinite styles]

Are you serious?!

[T Park]

If you think great defense,

is the Spurs missing lots of open shots, and Duncan missing countless open shots, and Ginobili missing layups, along with Parker.

Then, whatever lets you sleep at night I guess.

[Rummpd]

Suns are a damm fine team, and will be a threat and the way it will match up they will most likely get the 3 seed and avoid the 1-4 winner from the Spurs/Mavs until the finals.

Spurs will win those series but don't kid yourself the Suns are a loaded team and I for one would love for the Spurs to pick up one more addition.

[Marklar MM]

Is this like the Cleveland game when Detroit couldn't make anything, many wide open shots, and the Cavs got props for putting on a "Detroit defense" like performance?

[SirChaz]

LOL

Nobody will answer the question?


Nobody said great defense T_Park.

[Solid D]

Sure their D is improved. See first page of the Game Blog. The Spurs are #1 in Opp. FG%, the Suns were tied for 5th. We all know they are improved.

[T Park]

Nobody said great defense T_Park

Its slightly improved.

Because Amare isn't playing.

That simple.

Bring Amare back and that D

WOOOSH

back down where it was before.

Had Duncan decided to play tonight, Thomas wouldve been gone earlier and the game would've been closer.

[SirChaz]

Sure their D is improved. See first page of the Game Blog. The Spurs are #1 in Opp. FG%, the Suns were tied for 5th. We all know they are improved.


Some people know.

I had someone tell me it was a myth yesterday.


Just wonder if anyone still thought it is not improved.

[SirChaz]

Its slightly improved.

Because Amare isn't playing.

That simple.

Bring Amare back and that D

WOOOSH

back down where it was before.

I am going to feel sorry for you when your reality comes crashing down around you. lol



Had Duncan decided to play tonight, Thomas wouldve been gone earlier and the game would've been closer.

Only if......

[Frenchise player]

I also think that they have improved a lot.
This defeat isn't a fluke, Spurs were with Parker, Duncan and Ginobili and lost to a Amare less Suns (and despite what T Park says they are still better with than without him).
There should be more competition for the Spurs than some were thinking.
All indicates that we could meet the Mavs and Suns before an eventual revenge versus the Pistons. That would be fun to watch.

[Spurminator]

Suns had a good defensive strategy on Parker early, with Marion assigned to keep him out of the paint. And Kurt Thomas clearly gives Duncan more trouble than most (although I still don't think they went to him often enough.)

[ZStomp]

I think the Spurs can still beat them in a 7 game series but they are to be reckoned with!

[kobe_bryant]

they could probably hold me to 50 points a game. i'd say that is pretty good

[Buddy Holly]

Is there defense better or improved? No, maybe, but barely noticable.

Tonight, the Spurs made silly costly mistakes down the stretch that cost them the game.

[leemajors]

i don't know why parker thought he needed to take that many outside shots. ugly, ugly game, and some of the worst officiating i have ever seen both ways. violet and bavetta.

[TDMVPDPOY]

CMON whose goin to take teh suns serious? not us, thats why we lost

[Buddy Holly]

and some of the worst officiating i have ever seen both ways. violet and bavetta.

Yes, yes and yes.

Just to give an example. Spurs foul Bell with a little over 3 seconds left on the game clock in the 4th.

The clock continues to click away after the refs blow the whistle. It stops at .9

Refs then tell the table to add more time. About 3.2, right? Nope, 1.4

WTF?

[leemajors]

or tim grabbing the rim right in front of bevetta and him not seeing it. the first quarter was really bad. spurs went 8-0, then it was 9-8 suns and the whistles blew for about a minute straight.

[Catharsis]

Evidence of improved defense:



43.2% avg opposing fg% (5th in the league)
+7.1 pts differential (3rd in the league)
6.1 blocks per game (4th in the league--.2 less than #1 Nuggets)
15.5 avg opposing turn overs per game (3rd in league)
20.3 fouls per game (least committed in league)
34.1 defensive rebounds per game (#1 in the league--both Phx and San Antonio suck at o-rebounding--but both in top three for team fg%)
16.2 avg opposing assists per game (2nd to San Antonio--although the Suns are +10.5 in the differential while the next closest is +4.4)
The Suns are following the Spurs lead in playing defense. While they don't hold opponents under 90 like the Spurs, they keep them under 100 (97.3 to be exact). They also don't allow their opponents to get a lot of assists (something pointed out in ESPN's national broadcast last night). But the most telling is the opposing FG%. The Suns have been much improved in preventing wide open shots (hence Parkers ineffectiveness in the key). To say it's because Amare is out is a false understanding. The Suns made roster moves with defense in mind. Last season the only stellar defender Phoenix had was Marion while Stoudemire was playing out of position (center). The Suns got Kurt Thomas so they could slide Stoudemire back to PF and Marion back to SF (their natural positions). Bell is a better defender than Joe Johnson while just about anything is a better defender than Richardson although Diaw has been spectacular.

[BillsCarnage]

Evidence of improved defense:



16.2 avg opposing assists per game (2nd to San Antonio--although the Suns are +10.5 in the differential while the next closest is +4.4)
The Suns are following the Spurs lead in playing defense. While they don't hold opponents under 90 like the Spurs, they keep them under 100 (97.3 to be exact). They also don't allow their opponents to get a lot of assists (something pointed out in ESPN's national broadcast last night). But the most telling is the opposing FG%. The Suns have been much improved in preventing wide open shots (hence Parkers ineffectiveness in the key). To say it's because Amare is out is a false understanding. The Suns made roster moves with defense in mind. Last season the only stellar defender Phoenix had was Marion while Stoudemire was playing out of position (center). The Suns got Kurt Thomas so they could slide Stoudemire back to PF and Marion back to SF (their natural positions). Bell is a better defender than Joe Johnson while just about anything is a better defender than Richardson although Diaw has been spectacular.

Good analysis Cathar..
The one that really has struck me is the opponent assists. And as you've mentioned that leads to FG%. Having a very low opponent assist avg means the Suns are playing excellent man-on-man defense - making teams earn their points and take tougher shots.

These two teams are headed towards another WCF show down and Amare and Bobo will be back.

It's gonna be fun.

[BillsCarnage]

Spurs make excitings teams look ugly..

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[T Park]

Yeah they do.

That winning the whole thing after making it look "ugly" is a bitch aint it?

[Kori Ellis]

Suns defense has much improved even from the first 10 games or so of the season.

Props to them for being able to adjust their game while Amare and Barbosa are out and still win their fair share of games.

[Brutalis]

All I know is Phoenix better hope they don't get us or Dallas in the first and 2nd round or it's over for them.

[td4mvp21]

Does anyone else think its dangerous for the Suns to gell without their superstar? I mean look at the 03-04 Kings, they gelled real well without Webber, but then as soon as he got back they sucked. Amare and Webber are two different players (with Amare being better), however couldn't that screw up the chemistry?

[leemajors]

i just don't see what the big deal is. the suns play their best defensive game ever, the spurs play as badly as they can on offense, and still are in the game till the very end. is that something to be that proud of? i congratulate the suns for knocking us off, but it's nothing to brag about.

[pjjrfan]

They are better defensively, but I would argue that last night it was more the Spurs lack of patience on the offensive end rather than anything the Suns did. I would also point to Tony's poor play in the latter part of the 3rd qtr. when Manu and the Spurs had the momentum but thanks to Tony's bad shot selection, bad decisions and his failure to let Manu take over the game really killed the Spurs and let the Suns off the hook. It was difficult to get anything going after that. Having survived the Spurs great defensive stand there they got reenergized and were able to pull it out. I really believed the Spurs were going to win this game. I hope Tony learns something from last nights game.

[rayray2k8]

The suns win 1 fucking game and they think they are automatic championship contenders! This happens everytime, like as if they are seeking approval or crying for attention. Its the same with all of ya'll. With nugget fans, pacer fans, mav fans and you guys. The reason your town booed manu is because he owned them in the playoffs last year! And to compare each other defences is stupid! the suns are nowhere close to where detriot or san antonio are or will be in the april.

[pjjrfan]

Does anyone else think its dangerous for the Suns to gell without their superstar? I mean look at the 03-04 Kings, they gelled real well without Webber, but then as soon as he got back they sucked. Amare and Webber are two different players (with Amare being better), however couldn't that screw up the chemistry?
Webber was never the same player after that injury. It remains to be seen what effect that injury has on Amare. They will however go through a lull where they have to adjust to their new roles and Amares. I really don't think it will affect them that much, because the one guy who controls their game, Nash will quickly adapt. I have so much admirations for this guy's game, that I think that the Suns will only go as far as Nash's legs take them. I figure as soon as Nash runs out of gas they fold. It happened last year, and it's happened with the Mavs teams that Nash was on. If this guy is healthy and strong I have no doubt they can win the title, defense be damned. The key of course is to wear him out. Which the Spurs have done quite well every time they have faced him in the playoffs.

[tempe85]

Compare:

2004-2005 Phoenix Suns
#17 in the league in Defensive Efficiency
#10 in the league in defensive eFG%

2005-2006 Phoenix Suns
#2 in the league in Defensive Efficiency
tied for #3 in the league in defensive eFG%


-------------
Sorry to dissapoint you but the Suns aren't just a good defensive team this year, they're a great one. And it has nothing to do with Amare being out. It has everything to do with adding Diaw, Bell, Thomas, and Jones and changing to man to man defense. I mean Nash isn't a great defender either but the Suns defense isn't hurt much at all with him in the lineup. We're a completely different team then last season. And by the way statistically our worst defender was easily Quentin Richardson last season, not Amare. I see losing him as addition by subtraction.

The Suns will greatly be improved with Amare back. Last year he led the league in Points Per Shot and free throws attempted. He also will be able to rotate back to Power Forward where he's more effective defensively more then last year.

I expect the lineup with Amare to be this:

Nash
Diaw
Marion
Amare
Thomas

----
As many of you have mentioned Diaw has been vital to our success this year and will not just be tossed out of the starting lineup when Amare returns.

We'll probably also play this lineup often:

Nash
Bell
Diaw
Marion
Amare

-----
This lineup has a great combination of shut down defenders (Bell, Diaw, Marion), a wonderkid passer (Nash), and the most dominent force in the league (Amare). It'll be really tough to beat.

[tempe85]

Webber was never the same player after that injury. It remains to be seen what effect that injury has on Amare. They will however go through a lull where they have to adjust to their new roles and Amares.

Webber also had a long history of knee injurys and was already past the peak of his career. Medically there is a much higher likelyhood for a young player like Amare to return to full strength. Also people don't give Amare's determination enough credit... he wants to win more than anyone in the league.

[Ginobili_20_gold_medalist]

Last night I didn't really see any difference in the Suns' defense than last year. Just a lot of missed shots from the Spurs.

If anything I think Popovich's wacky rotations let the Suns off the hook. I think he's experimenting too much. I have no idea how any player can get in a rhythm being subbed every 3 minutes. Good thing that kind of thing won't be happening in the playoffs...at least I hope it doesn't.

[SirChaz]

I love the parade of excuses.

Like the Suns didn't miss any open shots or make any mental mistakes at the end.


It is amazing to me how defensive some people get over a simple question.

[Rummpd]

Both are very fine teams and it would be a great series, both have improved over last year (if Amare is healthy).

[leemajors]

the suns are still giving up 97 ppg. until that comes down i would not call them a great defensive team. i am aware that this is because they use so little shot clock a lot of the time, giving the other team more posessions. but i just don't believe that style will hold up in a 7 game series with a grind it out tempo. i don't think they can win a 7 game series against the spurs if 3-4 of the games have the same tempo as this last one. they would be playing the spurs game, and the spurs will usually win that sort of game.

[SenorSpur]

It's no doubt their defense has improved with the change of players and a stronger emphasis on taking charges, denying the ball, contesting shots and swiping at the ball at all times. The Suns would not have won such a low scoring game a year ago.

[Obstructed_View]

The Suns' defense is improved. It is now almost mediocre.

[Taco]

If you think great defense,

is the Spurs missing lots of open shots, and Duncan missing countless open shots, and Ginobili missing layups, along with Parker.

Then, whatever lets you sleep at night I guess.

:lol

[Solid D]

It has everything to do with adding Diaw, Bell, Thomas, and Jones and changing to man to man defense. I mean Nash isn't a great defender either but the Suns defense isn't hurt much at all with him in the lineup. We're a completely different team then last season. And by the way statistically our worst defender was easily Quentin Richardson last season, not Amare. I see losing him as addition by subtraction.


This is actually a good post except for a couple of things that I question, tempe85

Adding Diaw, Bell, Thomas and Jones helped the Suns improve defensively. Thomas is strong in his post defense, although troubled by foul accumulation against the top pivots. Diaw, Bell, Jones and Barbosa are all extremely quick with better than average length. The Suns, across the board, have more long wing players than any other team in the NBA. What that means is they are able to close out better. These guys are also very quick, which equates to quicker defensive rotation.

I disagree about how the Suns have changed to man-to-man. They played mostly man D last year but they were lazier (uncommitted) last year on D. I also think Amare will need to show a better commitment to defense in order to improve what the Suns already have now. That is not a given and it is his weakest part of his game.

In the games I've seen them play this year, the Suns sag off more to the lane perimeter in their man-D but rotate hard to the ball. This would help to explain why the Suns lead the league in fewest opponent assists/game. They try to force their opponents to put the ball on the floor...and there is no assist if that happens. Their sagging D and excellent length enables the Suns to be in position to have excellent defensive rebounding numbers (near the top in the NBA) and high shot-blocking numbers (better than the Spurs currently).

Secondarily, the Suns almost totally ignore offensive rebounding in favor of transition D. All of that length, speed, effort and defensive positioning equates to a much improved defense year-over-year from 2004/05. Only 4 teams are better statistically.

[SequSpur]

I love the parade of excuses.

Like the Suns didn't miss any open shots or make any mental mistakes at the end.

It is amazing to me how defensive some people get over a simple question.

What do you expect you fucking retard?

This is a Spurs forum.

Yes, the Suns are good, they've always been good and...

they are going home before the conference finals...

again...

now run along and stfu already.

[1Parker1]

^Ahh, the Sunshine of Spurstalk :)

[reader]

ESPN has an article regarding the Suns D and Pistons O. Bottom line, Phoenix plays D, Detroit, not as much. It is not an Insider article, yet.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2286615&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26id%3d2286615

[Solid D]

Another analyst gets it.

[ambchang]

Spurs shot 41% for the game.

That was an ugly, ugly game tonight but the Suns found a way to get some stops when they needed them.

You are not basing it on one game, are you? If you do, then you would also think that the Suns defense is better than the Spurs defense (41.3% vs. 48.5% FG%), which we all know, is not true. The Suns has always been a decent defensive team, just not at the level of the Spurs or Pistons, and their improvement from last year is minimal.

[SequSpur]

I love the parade of excuses.

Like the Suns didn't miss any open shots or make any mental mistakes at the end.


It is amazing to me how defensive some people get over a simple question.


Where was your defense tonight?

[Solid D]

Good question. That'll teach 'em to play only 2 bench players against the Spurs and then go play up-tempo in altitude. Looks like the Suns D took the night off.

[SequSpur]

Didn't they give up 140 in a game last week?

Suns don't play defense, Spurs are just fucking lost on offense.

[T Park]

Either that or they were tired.

Maybe D antoni will stretch the bench from 2 to 3 or maybe, GASP 4!!!


They are not, made for the freakin playoffs.

Against a solid defensive team, that runs

pretty much a cheap stupid version of the spurs.

Well, the Nuggets are a motivated version right now...

That simple.

[mavsfan1000]

They are missing Amare big time and will get embarrassed in the playoffs without him.

[Trainwreck2100]

http://www.ezekielbearsports.com/bbs/images/smilies/4_1_72%5B1%5D.gif

[mattyc]

Still can't believe how they didn't cover ray.