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View Full Version : Are the Iraqis capable of having a western style democracy?



IX_Equilibrium
01-16-2006, 02:46 PM
That is Bush's pipe dream, but I don't know if it can happen. (By the way, I am a republican who doesn't like Bush. McCain is about 80,000 times more qualified).

Bush's decision to invade Iraq and take Saddam out of power has been a debacle.

The administration did well with Afghanistan. The Afghans wanted to get the Taliban out of power and to take back their own country with the help of the US and allies, and they did. They did as much fierce fighting as the allied forces. They appreciated our efforts. They wanted to be free and take back their own country with military help.

Iraq is a different story. The Bush administration were certainly hasty and haphazard in the planning to take Saddam out of power, with faulty at best WMD intelligence as their justification. Rumsfeld, a true snake in the grass, lowballed the cost and number of troops that it would take to get Iraq free from under the oppresion of the Ba'ath party, and ignored anyone's dissagreement about a realistic number of troops or time committed.

The Bush administration took Saddam out, without any planning or exit strategy for the aftermath. They obviously did not do their homework about how the Iraqi people felt about a US presence in their country. They didn't do their homework as to what the political landscape would be after the Ba'ath party was taken out of power.

Over 2 years and 2200 US soldiers dead, and the situation is more unstable than before! Anybody who says that the war on terror in Iraq is not a major blunder needs to watch the news. Every week, soldiers and Iraqi civilians are dying. After 2 years, the Iraqis (along with the allied forces) have failed to compile a force that is effective enough to fight the insurgents independently. The people of Iraq don't have the same will and determination as The Afghans did to take their country back. But George Bush is determined to make the people of Iraq take a way of life and a form of government that they don't want. Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity will have you believe that the Iraqis are so willing to embrace the American military and love what they are doing for them. Both of those extreme conservatives need to go to Fallujah and Ramadi and see that some Iraqi citizens themselves are the ones shooting and trying to kill allied forces.

Sure, you have the election turnout and it looked promising, like Iraqis were finally starting to take an interest in helping temselves. Well, Sunni and Shi'as both and accusing each other of scandal escalating to violence has diluted that good notion.

I don't think the Iraqis are capable of a democracy, especially without allied help that they don't want anyway. Hence, the failure.

Oh one more thing: Our men and women in uniform deserve better leadership than what the Bush administration has given them. But, good ol' Georgie has the support of millions of conservatives who back him no matter what. They back him just because he is a Republican. They wouldn't care if he would tap dance on Pat Tillman's grave. They would find some way to justfy W's actions no matter what, like a bunch of sheep.

Nbadan
01-16-2006, 03:01 PM
This question should be can a country based on Islamic principals ever adapt Democracy?

xrayzebra
01-16-2006, 03:09 PM
This question should be can a country based on Islamic principals ever adapt Democracy?

The answer is yes. Look at Turkey. You assume, like most libs, that
nothing is possible unless there is drastic change. How about Mexico,
can any religion other than Catholics be established there? My answer
is yes, but it will take some doing. One is Islamic and one is Catholic,
both are zealous in their religion.

boutons_
01-16-2006, 04:01 PM
Iraq has not only the Muslim angle working against democracy, but is also severely divided all sectarian lines of Kurd, Shiite, Sunni/Baathist, amplified by the Kurd + Shiite majority feeling very antipathetic towards the minority Sunnis who ran Iraq under Saddam. Shiites are now saying they will not change the Constitution as agreed to satisfy the Sunnis before voting the Constitution. Sunnis are pissed, the Sunni insurgency has plenty of fuel.

The Repug war has never had anything but the tiniest chance of succeeding.

Meanhwhile, the real war on terror continues on the US back burner.

JoeChalupa
01-16-2006, 04:17 PM
Of course they are!

Then again I'm capable of making love to Jessica Alba.

hussker
01-16-2006, 06:00 PM
Of course they are!

Then again I'm capable of making love to Jessica Alba.

After my sloppy 2nds

Yonivore
01-17-2006, 06:48 AM
If post-WWII Japan can, the Iraqis can.

boutons_
01-17-2006, 10:19 AM
"post-WWII Japan can"

Total bullshit.

Japan was not divided 3 ways along sectarian lines. Japan was extremely homogenuous, traditional, stable society for decades if not centuries before 1945. That society, culture, national identity were an excellent basis for a new form of government (which in traditional societies is less important the a stable culture/society). Germany was united in the 19th century, and also based its post-WW2 governement on an established culture.

Iraq was a geographical creation of the British with no cultural foundations. The only stability in Iraq was forced by Saddam.

The US is also an invented culture, where the form of government is weirdly more important than the actual culture, which itself is comparatively weak. That's why Americans are obsessed with documents like the Consitution and Dec of Ind, and why the US is horribly legalistic, lawyer-obsessed society.

spurster
01-17-2006, 10:38 AM
The best hope is that Iraq ends up with a semi-democracy that ends up better than Iran.

Oh, Gee!!
01-17-2006, 12:28 PM
nooope, never knew it, never will.

zeleni
01-17-2006, 04:39 PM
nooope, never knew it, never will.

WTF! I hardly believe the stupidity of the question!

Western demokracy? Or how should I pronounce it?
Are we talking about Rechtstaat or Rule of Law?
A Welfare state or State of prosperity?

There is no western style, you ignorant poll-tehnicians! Basicly u r asking whether Iraq can have a good legislature, free press and capable courts a minute after a first book about Iraqi draft constitution was thought in their law school? Or are U guessin if they can have all that sometime in the future?

Now lets have a poll...What choice is more stupid to be debated?

Now, maybe Americans are not stupid. But...

xrayzebra
01-17-2006, 05:46 PM
WTF! I hardly believe the stupidity of the question!

Western demokracy? Or how should I pronounce it?
Are we talking about Rechtstaat or Rule of Law?
A Welfare state or State of prosperity?

There is no western style, you ignorant poll-tehnicians! Basicly u r asking whether Iraq can have a good legislature, free press and capable courts a minute after a first book about Iraqi draft constitution was thought in their law school? Or are U guessin if they can have all that sometime in the future?

Now lets have a poll...What choice is more stupid to be debated?

Now, maybe Americans are not stupid. But...

See OG, you made him mad at you. Everyone is not as nice as me, I
told you so....... :lol