Hindsight: Was Finley The Right Move? [Archive]

timvp

01-30-2006, 05:47 PM

With the Spurs taking on Devin Brown and the Utah Jazz tonight, it is an appropriate time to discuss whether the Spurs made the right decision regarding the addition of Michael Finley. There were a plethora of swingmen available this summer for cheap and it's interesting to take a look and see how they are doing in their new home.

James Jones
Contract: 4 years, $11M
Age: 25
http://www.nba.com/media/act_james_jones.jpg
Jones has played well in his first season with PHX. He's averaging over ten points a game and is one of the biggest three-point threats in the league. He can get hot quick and can get his shot off over anyone. On the Spurs, I think he would have been a nice hired gun off the bench.

Mo Evans
Contract: 3 years, $4.5M
Age: 27
http://www.nba.com/media/act_maurice_evans.jpg
Evans was practically begging for the Spurs to sign him. He said that he could join the Spurs and help. With the way he's played for the Pistons so far this season, I think he was right. He is shooting nearly 50% from the field and 40% from beyond the arc and is very active hustle player. Mo is a tenacious defender and would have been a nice fit in San Antonio -- especially for that price.

Devin Brown
Age: 27
Contract: 2 years, $5M (second year is a team option)
http://www.nba.com/media/act_devin_brown.jpg
Devin got off to a slow start in the Great White North but has recently turned it around. For the month of January, Mr. San Antonio is averaging 9.5 points on 48.5% shooting in only 20 minutes per game. He's also been able to stay healthy so far this season.

Qyntel Woods
Contract: 1 year, minimum
Age: 24
http://www.nba.com/media/act_qyntel_woods.jpg
Woods is starting for the Knicks now and putting up huge numbers. Last game, Woods put up 24 points, eight rebounds and two steals in his second start for the Knicks. For the month of January in 21.4 minutes per game, he is averaging 8.2 points and 4.8 rebounds, while shooting 52.8% from the field and 45.5% from downtown. As a future replacement for Bowen, Woods would have fit the mold perfectly.

It's too early to tell whether The MF was the right decision. If he performs well in the playoffs and helps the Spurs win another championship, then he was worth it. If Finley pulls a Dallas Mavericks and shrivels up come May, these other choices will present a lot of "What If?" questions.

ALVAREZ6

01-30-2006, 05:50 PM

James Jones would have been nice, but he exploded out of nowhere...I guess it's the Steve Nash effect.

Bruno

01-30-2006, 06:01 PM

Finley was the right choice. Barry is the odd man, I wish Spurs trade him at the deadline for a young swingman. (even if I like the man a lot)

MannyIsGod

01-30-2006, 06:04 PM

smeagol

01-30-2006, 06:06 PM

Qyntel Woods
Contract: 1 year, minimum
Age: 24
http://www.nba.com/media/act_qyntel_woods.jpg
Woods is starting for the Knicks now and putting up huge numbers. Last game, Woods put up 24 points, eight rebounds and two steals in his second start for the Knicks. For the month of January in 21.4 minutes per game, he is averaging 8.2 points and 4.8 rebounds, while shooting 52.8% from the field and 45.5% from downtown. As a future replacement for Bowen, Woods would have fit the mold perfectly.
You post this because whottt is no longer around. He would be on your ass in a nano-second :lol

Solid D

01-30-2006, 06:09 PM

Good post, timvp...and good question. The answer lies in the days following the Spurs' final playoff game.

I don't know if the Spurs could have afforded James Jones (almost $3M per) without eliminating a player or re-doing salary commitments. James would have been a great signing, no doubt.

Finley is still in the top 5 in productivity for Spurs players. Gino, Tim, Tony, Robert and Fin are the top 5 offensively. Bowen and Rasho are defensively productive role-players. The question is, could James Jones have contributed enough defensively to be a better all-around choice?

You can't beat Finley's price.

Another compelling question would be: was Nick Van Exel a good signing? So far, he looks like a worse move than Fin-dog.

SA210

01-30-2006, 06:10 PM

I don't really regret signing Finley, I just pray he comes around as a true 6th man type player that we expected. But I do think we miss our youth off the bench that we've had the past couple of years, it's really hurting us bad. Be it that we no longer have Devin, or Beno not really playing, we miss our young legs to keep the tempo that we once had.

birdy219

01-30-2006, 06:10 PM

I woudln't overvalue the production of Pheonix players. That system will make everyone look good. I guarntee if Finley was in Pheonix everyone here would be upset they didn't get him and we'd all be bitching about whoever we did have and what could have been. Look at how much Richardson has dropped off when removed from that system.

Finley has had his moments, but for the most part he's struggled shooting the damn ball. I don't understand what makes shooters suck in San Antonio, but I'm confident he'll turn it around.

I will say this, I would rather have Evans. I love the way that kid plays.

And Woods will implode sooner than later. I'd be really suprised if he didn't.

Not only do shooters forget how to shoot in San Antone, have you noticed how good free throw shooters began to stink as well? It is mind boggling. I think new players come in trying not to mess up anything and they forget what keeps them in the NBA. For instance, Finley needs to know that we want him to hit his WIDE OPEN shots MORE than we want him playing DEFENSE. PLEASE hit those wide open jumpers.

SequSpur

01-30-2006, 06:11 PM

None of these players would've started here or have significant minutes because of the current core group, I don't think it matters.

The Spurs are tied for the best record in the West.

They still would've been schooled by the Pistons, Hawks, Bulls, Nuggets, Hornets and Wizards.

The Spurs need a rebounder.

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 06:13 PM

No it wasn't the right move. Finley is not a spark off the bench. They could get a better 6th man real easily. Mo Evans, James Jones, and Devin Brown would all fit that role better.

Solid D

01-30-2006, 06:13 PM

HB22inSA

01-30-2006, 06:15 PM

Finley's jumper is too pure not to pass up.

The answer comes in the playoffs, but I think Pop and co. made the right decision.

Remember, he's having to learn how to play defense for once in his life, which takes extra effort and energy, which, in turn, affects your game a bit.

It's way too early to give him a grade or ask if he's the right move yet.

It's been 44 games in a new system, I mean, give the guy a chance already.

(One of America's biggest problems, the need for instant gratification)

SequSpur

01-30-2006, 06:18 PM

Good post. Is this pseudofan?
:smokin

Don't you have to go see some high school girls volleyball games this afternoon?

Solid D

01-30-2006, 06:19 PM

:lol

BigVee

01-30-2006, 06:26 PM

It's a fair question, I just don't think you could pass Finley up under the circumstances. Some nights it looks like a good move, other nights....I still think when the playoffs start, the Spurs will suddenly look a lot "younger" than they do now. You'll see a different Finley, Van Exel, Horry, etc.

boutons_

01-30-2006, 06:27 PM

"Finley's jumper is too pure not to pass up."

Beautiful jumper, great form, realease, smooth, but as Spur he's shooting way below his career FG%, which itself is above his playoff FG%.

The playoffs will be where Michael dis/proves he was the right choice.

I think I would have preferred Mo Williams, to replace Devin's athleticism and with probably better smarts and scoring.

Dre_7

01-30-2006, 06:41 PM

So far...

http://i1.tinypic.com/mvkk1h.jpg

Pretty even. The real test will be come playoff time. After the season is over, we will know for sure if it was a good move.

I for one think it was. Finley is going to be HUGE for SA in the playoffs. BOOK IT!

picnroll

01-30-2006, 06:42 PM

Character issues aside it would be nice to have Woods athleticism and he would have been available for vet minimum.

SequSpur

01-30-2006, 06:43 PM

Mike Finley would be an allstar in the Eastern Conference....

:)

timvp

01-30-2006, 06:45 PM

Character issues aside it would be nice to have Woods athleticism and he would have been available for vet minimum.

A nice scenario would have been Finley and Woods. Woods would have been perfect in a Melvin Sanders type role. Give him a year to learn and then move him into a bigger role next season.

Extra Stout

01-30-2006, 06:47 PM

None of the other available swingmen would have made Nazr coordinated or made Rasho grow testicles.

BigVee

01-30-2006, 06:51 PM

Athleticism doesn't mean as much once the playoffs start. Things tend to bog down. Alley oops...Denver...drop way down. Fast break points...Pho....go way down...Defense, execution and performance under pressure become paramount. We'll see how Finley reacts when he is the 4th or 5th option. Maybe the pressure will be lessened for him in that role.

angel_luv

01-30-2006, 06:53 PM

I'm sorry we had to let go of Devin, but I like Michael and am glad he is here.

As for L.J.'s question, I actually agree with Dre... for once. :lol

So far...

http://i1.tinypic.com/mvkk1h.jpg

Pretty even. The real test will be come playoff time. After the season is over, we will know for sure if it was a good move.

I for one think it was. Finley is going to be HUGE for SA in the playoffs. BOOK IT!

I hope so.

ShoogarBear

01-30-2006, 06:55 PM

Fact is we won't know the answer until the Spurs have played their last game this season.

exstatic

01-30-2006, 07:21 PM

Jones would have been NICE, but IIRC, he was a RFA, and was traded to Phoenix. I don't think Indy would have obliged us, and think surely they would have matched had we offered.

timvp

01-30-2006, 07:25 PM

You can't beat Finley's price.

His 3-year, $10M contract could look good or bad depending on how Fin plays. Players who Don Nelson ran into the ground usually don't have that long of a shelf life. Finley will be 35 in the third year of his contract.

Players Nelson Ran Into The Ground
Sidney Moncrief -- Done at 29
Marques Johnson -- Done at 30
Tim Hardaway -- Done at 32
Chris Mullin -- Done at 31
Latrell Sprewell -- Done at 32

Michael Finley -- ???

ZStomp

01-30-2006, 07:31 PM

Michael Finley came cheap too.

z0sa

01-30-2006, 07:39 PM

I think we're judging too soon. When its game 7 of the finals and finley misses the jumper, then we'll judge. Or rather, when he hits that jumper =)

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 07:47 PM

Finley is a brick waiting to happen.

z0sa

01-30-2006, 07:51 PM

Lets not bring up what Dirk did in Game 6 vs Phoenix last year - two bricks and an ill advised three if i remember correctly... not including cussing his teammates out.

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 07:53 PM

If Finley played a decent game Dallas would've blown out Phoenix. He kept Phoenix in it with all his bricks.

T Park

01-30-2006, 07:56 PM

Didn't Finley win game 2 pretty much on his own/??

Nailing like 35, while having to play D on younger athletic players????

In retrospect the signing to make would've been Maurice Evans.

But I don;t think Evans is the offensive threat than Finley is.

The run to take the lead and extend it against the T Wolves was made by none other than

Michael Finley.

2 threes, including one at the top right corner, with a guy literally in his face and falling sideways.

I go along with the fact, hes having to learn both sides of the ball all over again.

Ive been impressed on his ability to pick up defense so quick.

Sure he gets burned, but damn, everyone does from time to time.

Bowen lets some guys get by too, hes not perfect.

z0sa

01-30-2006, 08:02 PM

At his best this season, Finley will be 80%. Next season expect him to come out at 100% from the get go.

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 08:03 PM

Yeah but after that game Finley was terrible for the rest of the series. Bringing up one game just shows how inconsistent Finley is game by game and usually he has a bad game.

T Park

01-30-2006, 08:10 PM

No offense,

But I think its disgusting how much you bag on Michael Finley.

When the mavericks traded Kidd for him, he was all they had, and he got run into the ground by the god Don Nelson for many years and on top of it, was a great locker room guy.

That would be like people bagging on Sean Elliott.

Michael Finley has not shot as well as I thought he would, but hes done some things that I've been impressed with, like rebounding the basketball, his quickly improved defense, and other intangibles.

Everytime he does great things, like against Milwaukee, Memphis, Minnesota with the 2 huge threes.

James Jones, i don't think plays the best of defense, and Evans doesn't have the range that Finley or Jones does.

Qyntell Woods, i don't care how good he is, I do not want someone that disgusting, or that cruel twords animals, on my basketball team.

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 08:13 PM

I only bag on him because he sucks. He hasn't done shit since the 2002-2003 season. His playoff numbers are terrible overall.

ChumpDumper

01-30-2006, 08:26 PM

Almost as bad as Van Horn's.

T Park

01-30-2006, 08:27 PM

So what if he played bad.

You don't bag on a guy who gave his career to your team like he did.

Giving a crap in march when the team was 12 and 60.

That, bagging on a guy whos had a bad couple years, is pathetic.

T Park

01-30-2006, 08:29 PM

Nowitzki wasn't exactly Mr clutch in the playoffs last year if I remember right.

He stunk in all 6 games.

Games 2 and 3 I THINK wich they won, he had like 25 but took like 24 or 25 shots to get it.

Finley had a bad series, but I think he was guarded by Marion.

Finley also played HEAVY minutes, and at his age, you have to limit him, and bring him off the bench all year, ALA Robert Horry.

Look at how well he did last year, after limiting his minutes, compared to two years ago when the Spurs ran him ragged.

mavsfan1000

01-30-2006, 09:24 PM

I have no question that he gave his effort to Dallas. Great guy but unable to come through in the last couple years is what I'm talking about. He will have a game once in awhile that will be awesome but more often than not he will be a low percentage shooter.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-30-2006, 09:39 PM

yeahone

01-30-2006, 09:47 PM

how much of those players have experience in the playoffs and veteran leadership

timvp

01-30-2006, 10:03 PM

Except for the fact Devin sat out half the fucking season.

:huh

ChumpDumper

01-30-2006, 10:06 PM

Well, both sucking about equally tonight. Devin stayed out of foul trouble.

ducks

01-30-2006, 10:23 PM

:depressed

ducks

01-30-2006, 10:33 PM

barry I gave him the beneifiet of the doubt last year
HE HAS SUCKED BALLS THIS YEAR

Trainwreck2100

01-30-2006, 10:38 PM

Never give up on Barry, he was there for the PHO series last year and he played well Game 7 of the Finals

JHoLove

01-30-2006, 10:50 PM

Ok in theory the reason Im glad he's not playing for the mavericks anymore is because he was making too much money for his inconsistency, and it was money Dallas will need to sign say Josh Howard or Jason Terry or even Dirk... But I really do love Finley, but Im glad he's not shooting us out of games.. but I do miss those 2 or 3 games every 2 or 3 months where he won a game for us.

Brutalis

01-31-2006, 12:09 AM

We got a ring didn't we? Should got one the year before it as well, being snooped out of the .4 bs.

DDS4

01-31-2006, 12:25 AM

If you accept him as an overpaid role player, then he's worth it.

He's hit some big shots in the playoffs.

SenorSpur

01-31-2006, 12:27 AM

I only bag on him because he sucks. He hasn't done shit since the 2002-2003 season. His playoff numbers are terrible overall.

Wonderful question!

As much as it pains me to agree with a Mavs fan, he's right.

Quite frankly, Finley has been sucking for a couple of years now. These were my worst fears being realized. I bitched about Finley's unreliability in this space over the summer. I was afraid the Spurs would get infauated with both his price and supposed shooting ability. At the same time, allowing younger more athletic players (Evans, Jones) to get away.

The one thing Finley was brought here to do was shoot - and he can't do that. Therefore, he's useless. Some may say he's going through what Barry went through last year. Well, I say shooting 40% on a team (Mavs) that didn't have a commanding post presence is precisely the reason we should him to have performed at least to that level here. Mainly because of the presence of Duncan, he's getting great looks. He doesn't play defense, can't handle the rock and turns the ball over. He's not a clutch player.

I would have rather the Spurs signed Evans. At least he can bring an energy, and a defensive presence even when he's not scoring. Ever hotice how rare it is for the Spurs to come up with steals while guarding the perimeter? At lease, Evans was almost as cheap as Finley.

Spurs made a big mistake.

Gerryatrics

01-31-2006, 02:21 AM

Was Barry worth winning a Championship? Are you serious? You pick one game where he shoots poorly to start another blame all the Spurs problems on Brent Barry thread, something I seem to recall you doing once or twice last season too, not much of a benefit of a doubt.

Brent Barry is shooting nearly 42% from the field, 36% from three. If that's sucking balls I hate to think what the other players are doing to you. Bones is shooting better than Finley, FG% and 3PT%. Same with NVE, and Beno. He's shooting better than Horry FG%, and just behind him in 3PT%. He's shooting better than Ginobili and Parker from three.

His other numbers are much lower than I'd like, but he doesn't get the minutes, and he doesn't get anywhere near the touches he did in Seattle, not even close. If you don't like what he's doing, tell Pop to give him the ball and see what he can do. I don't recall much whining when he got the start when Manu was out, and when he was handling the ball and running the offense.

T Park

01-31-2006, 02:31 AM

and he doesn't get anywhere near the touches he did in Seattle, not even close.

If he grew a pair and shot the ball more, instead of passing the ball like a hot potato, then I would believe you.

when he got the start when Manu was out, and when he was handling the ball and running the offense.

What games were you watching!?!?

You pick one game where he shoots poorly

Oh we could pick more than that.

he was there for the PHO series last year

Game 1?

Other than that what?

He had how many points in game 7? 5?

WHEWWWW

Boy, 7 million for a guy that can go 21 minutes, and not even record a single MARK on a game.

Impressive.

Peter

01-31-2006, 02:35 AM

When you look past the rep that players have because of their name or what they did in 1997, Devin Brown was a much better fit for the Spurs than Finley or Barry.

ZStomp

01-31-2006, 02:39 AM

Was letting Devin Brown go a good Move?

MIN FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA OR DR TO PF ST TO BL PTS
12:00 1 4 0 0 0 0 2 2 0 0 0 1 0 2

http://clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-010.gif

:lol :spin :)

Peter

01-31-2006, 02:52 AM

...and he still managed to have a better game than Finley.

Devin's game fit well in SA. Out of the 3 (Brown, Finley, Barry), Brown always looked the most comfortable when playing Spurs basketball. His D was much better than the other 2 and for the most part his offensive game was too in SA. He was also a guy who reliably provided the spark off the bench that Pop's always talking about missing this year.

Finley and Barry just do not look comfortable when they are on the court. Too bad Devin couldn't have been kept around. It's not like his price was that high.

aaronstampler

01-31-2006, 03:17 AM

I'm not gonna say I'm majorly concerned, because I'm not one of those greedy fans who demands that my team win the whole thing every year. Two out of four would be nothing to sneeze at.

But it does bother me that our offense looks so much more sluggish this year and last year. It says we're 2nd in the league shooting the ball, but I guess we're just not getting enough fast break points, second chance points, and FTs. It seems like we run the shot clock down to the end almost every possession. Now for a team like Utah to do that, it makes sense, but not us.

Seriously though, right now Tony looks like the only guy on the team who's as quick as he was last year. Manu's got the constant ankle problems, (he hasn't been anywhere close to as explosive or aggressive as he was last year) Tim has his bad arch, and Finley, Barry, and Van Exel all are playing and looking their age. We're just not getting enough easy points, not running, not making enough of those WOW plays, and for once, we're playing as boring as people on the outside percieve us to be.

We'd have to improve significantly to be able to give the Pistons a series, and I fear that if even Stoudamire comes back healthy, the Suns would really give us a run for the money this time around.

aaronstampler

01-31-2006, 03:20 AM

As an addendum to that, I think a part of the problem is that neither Findog or NVE play much defense or force any turnovers, so it's impossible to get the fast break going when the second unit is in. The only chances we have to run is when Tony and Manu are in there, and even then it's extremely rare.

mavsfan1000

01-31-2006, 03:35 AM

The suns have no chance against the spurs. The spurs have their number. It is the mavs that the spurs have to worry about.

SequSpur

01-31-2006, 10:04 AM

The suns have no chance against the spurs. The spurs have their number. It is the mavs that the spurs have to worry about.

:lol

Que Gee

01-31-2006, 12:04 PM

Boy, 7 million for a guy that can go 21 minutes, and not even record a single MARK on a game.

Impressive.

Where do you keep getting $7m? He doesn't make anywhere near that.

cheguevara

01-31-2006, 12:09 PM

Everyone knows damn well, if given the choice today 95 out of 100 GMs would still pick Finley.

rwb

01-31-2006, 12:14 PM

Finley has come up big before and he will again...especially in playoff time. I think the Spurs were lucky to get him. I liked Devin, too, but I'd rather have experience in the end.

polandprzem

01-31-2006, 12:30 PM

I like these two first guys Mo and Jones. But I wouldn't change Finley for them but easily I'd trade vanx.
Finley os not that bad at defense and he can hit some jumpers as well. He is not afraid to hit big shots and thats important. he doesn't rush plys too much. We will see. We've got rodeo , and we've got PO. Spurs are begining to play better and better.

Ed Helicopter Jones

01-31-2006, 12:38 PM

We won the championship last year without Devin. Due to his back he was a nonfactor. I think the Spurs concerns about his health influenced their decision not to stick with him.

Finley still has game. He's had a ton of open looks that he's missed, but I still think he's going to find that groove before the season is over. I don't consider him over-the-hill.

I remember a lot of folks bashing on Horry saying he was washed up in his first season as a Spur, too. After the Laker series of '.04 a lot of people thought big Rob was a bust. He turned out alright.

Second guessing the signing of Finley at this point is a bit premature, IMHO.

alamo50

01-31-2006, 12:57 PM

Adding an All-Star like Finley should never be denied.

leemajors

01-31-2006, 01:03 PM

finley has won some games for us by himself. it's not often you get a player that can do that.

Rynospursfan

01-31-2006, 02:36 PM

If your a big fan of animal abuse, Woods would have been your man.

I think it is safe to say that Finley would be the starting 2 guard and scoring at least 15 points a game in Utah.

Finley was the right choice.

TwoHandJam

01-31-2006, 02:47 PM

The biggest thing I fear about Finley is his "clutch factor" - or lack thereof. I just don't think he is a clutch player and the best role players are clutch players like Horry.

Although Barry is likely an inferior player to Finley during the regular season, he has proved to me that he can hit clutch shots in the playoffs. He even ran the point for a stretch in what was likely the biggest pressure game in Spurs history.

Finley is being asked to become a true role player for the first time in his career. The question is, can he hit clutch shots in the playoffs with the very limited attempts he'll likely get?

I don't know the answer but we'll soon find out.

JamStone

01-31-2006, 02:54 PM

Mike Finley would be an allstar in the Eastern Conference....

:)

I think the Spurs made the right decision to pursue and sign Michael Finley, especially since it didn't take much financially to acquire him. He is a former all-star, he is a smart veteran, and he has experience being a go-to guy on offense. His jumpshot is a great asset, even if he hasn't shot as well as previous years.

However, I do disagree with the contention that Finley would be an all-star in the Eastern Conference. I sense a little sarcasm, but Finley wouldn't even be mentioned as a possible all-star in the Eastern Conference this year. The only two teams he considered in the Eastern Conference were Miami and Detroit. And, on both teams, he would have been the third or fourth option AT BEST. In Detroit, he would not have started either. And, it's questionable whether he would have started on the Heat.

Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Michael Redd, Rip Hamilton would all be more likely candidates to be all-stars this year. And, Richard Jefferson, Antawn Jamison, and even Al Harrington would probably be better bets over Michael Finley gettingan all-star invitation.

wildbill2u

01-31-2006, 04:05 PM

Good post, timvp...and good question. The answer lies in the days following the Spurs' final playoff game.

Finley is still in the top 5 in productivity for Spurs players. Gino, Tim, Tony, Robert and Fin are the top 5 offensively. You can't beat Finley's price.

Another compelling question would be: was Nick Van Exel a good signing? So far, he looks like a worse move than Fin-dog.

That's the only compelling question but the bitch around here has been that we needed proven outside shooters to stretch the opposing team's defense. So far NVE hasn't shown me as much as Finley on either end of the court.

But let's let them have a full season to make firm judgements.