Redistribution of Wealth vs Creation of Wealth

[2centsworth]

I thought this was an excellent article by Thomas Sowell. It's probably the central reason why I converted from being a liberal to conservative.


http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2006/01/10/181665.html

[Darrin]

Wow. What a load of hogwash. The idea of the re-distribution of wealth comes from 200 years of laize-faire economic policy in this country that led to the largest economic collapse in the history of this nation, and allowed the creation of monopolies the likes of Standard Oil. When you can buy the lawmakers, everything is legal. That should tell you, as scandal breaks in Washington, why money needs to be removed from the political system.

The creation of wealth comes from securing a job. It helps in the production of products and services, and this creates more business opportunities because a surplus of wealth without a place to spend it means there is no adaquate compensation for the job. They are, economically, where this country was at the turn of the 20th Century. Traditional agrarian lifestyles are being abandoned to work in a metropolis. Within the next generation, the majority of the Chinese will live in Urban areas and work in factories. This is good for international business because whereas in the United States we are buying our 3rd or 4th car per household, they are buying thier first. When living 20 miles away from your job suddenly is commonplace, that car goes from a luxury buy to a necessity of life.

I'm liberal to my core. No zealot like a convert, right? I grew up in a very conservative suburb of Metro Detroit, and my belief system began to change as my world expanded from that small community. We weren't enough for government assistance and we had our own house, but my parents were divorced and the luxury of Catholic school was too much to afford. It took a very generous parish in forgiving a substantial financial debt to keep us out of bankruptcy. My mother worked two, three jobs to make sure my brother and I had clothes on our back and food in our bellies.

Two years after the divorce, Dad decided to skip out on seeing his kids and the bare-minimum child support he was asked to pay. His bill, although no more than $250 a month for two kids, ran to an excess of $8,000. That's a total of 32 months before he started making payments again. Mom was a victim of a company merger and was let go from her job during this time. If not for a private business that was losing my cousin money, there would have been no source of income for our family. My mother raised two sons on annual income of $15,000 dollars a year in one of the richest counties in the country.

Luck and prayers: that's how we stayed out of financial ruin. By the time college rolled around, our funds were non-existent, and because of being cursed by age, I was denied all but $200 in pell grants this year (full time, 12 credits at the local community college is $1600 a year plus books). My brother, 5 years ago, received ten times that amount.

I have no health insurance, and haven't had any since 1998, the last time dad had a job. I have never had a physical.

In 1990, the average for a gallon of milk in this town was $1.09. This year, the average cost is $2.89.

A gallon of gas in 1999 was $0.89 cents. Today, it's $2.39. My mother, by the way, is working at the same job she has had since 1998 and she has received a $1.25 increase in her wages over that time period. That increase doesn't cover the difference in a gallon of gas today from 1998.

For people who live with poverty everyday, it's not some statistic or political tool. It is their reality, just as it's this person's reality to face dead-end jobs, broken schools, and lost hope of a better life. I'm not talking about me. We're a pretty average lower middle-class family.

I'm talking about the people who used to come into my job at Arby's and solicit our customers for some money or sit in the lobby and talk to themselves. The state closed down a mental health facility and most of their patients were re-admitted to the public with no job, no medication, and no family or friends. Our store was filled with victims of drug abuse. Our manager, a recovering addict himself, would go into halfway houses and offer his services to the staff - if any one needed a job, just let him know. If any one of us asked him for money, he would pull out his wallet and give us $20 or whatever we needed to get through to payday. I once saw him cover $200 for two weeks so that one of his employees could keep from being evicted.

These are the people who convinced me that idealism is just that - an idea. Life is much more interesting than that and forgiveness, being their for your fellow man, and yes, government assistance programs are necessary components of a compassionate and free society.

When I go into a restaurant, I want the hostess to be able to count back my change and a well-funded school district and involved parents need to be a part of that. I don't want to walk down the street at 3 AM and be mugged by someone who is either on drugs or just for the love of God, hungry. An educated, employed, and secure public reduces crime. Period. So instead of throwing away victims of crime, or having tougher sentencing guidelines, let's do what works longterm - provide for everyone so that no one becomes desperate. Does that solve all crime? no. But the need to escape the daily lives is the number one reason for drug use. I can think of no one who needs to escape more than those in high-stress jobs at both ends of the socioeconomic scale.

[2centsworth]

Darrin I understand the struggle of starting off poor. I too came from a broken home and it was me my mom and brother in the projects in Brooklyn and Coney Island.

My ascent out of poverty came from the ability to create my own wealth rather than having it given to me. That's the point behind the entire article. Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.


Btw, the great depression was more caused by the pyramid scheme in the stock market.

Nevertheless, today's market is racially blind and gives everyone an opportunity to create wealth!

[Vashner]

We where a mixing pot country... hence we like to barter goods and services.

Other fuckers know then so they come here like roaches. Yea everyone hates USA... where's the line to get in?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Darrin I understand the struggle of starting off poor. I too came from a broken home and it was me my mom and brother in the projects in Brooklyn and Coney Island.

My ascent out of poverty came from the ability to create my own wealth rather than having it given to me. That's the point behind the entire article. Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.


Btw, the great depression was more caused by the pyramid scheme in the stock market.

Nevertheless, today's market is racially blind and gives everyone an opportunity to create wealth!

this has become the GOP mantra of today 'opportunity' and belief' as opposed to temporary govt assistance.. well these, 'opportunity', and belief' don't put food on the table nor do they pay for healthcare..

[Mr. Peabody]

Being a liberal keeps you poor while being a conservative brings the belief you won't stay poor. See the Cubans who came to this country dirt poor and are now the wealthiest hispanic community. Not a coincidence they are predominately conservative.


:rolleyes The first wave of Cubans seeking asylum were predominately wealthy and well-educated. :rolleyes

To imply that their conservative ideals enabled them to pick themselves up by the bootstraps is misleading. They already had the resources to have financial success upon arriving in America.

[101A]

Darrin,

A gallon of milk was not 89 cents in 1989, nor was gas less than a buck in 1999 - you're about a decade off on each; and btw; inflation has been under control that entire time.

Sounds like you have had a rough time of it, and I agree, our government should be there to help those most unfortunate in our society; but unfortunately the government is ill-equipped to do so, and is about the most inefficient entity in the world at redistributing "wealth" to those in need. Also, there are more and more studies which indicate that money is NOT what the public education system in this country needs (it has more of that than ever in its history) - competition is.

It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

The solution to poverty is a job, not a government program. I know that is a callous observation, but it is an accurate one. There have been government programs designed to educate people, and help them get jobs, but these have been sparse, and their success has been questionable, just like ALL government, beuracratic programs.

BTW: Your not having health insurance, as a young man, is a choice, not a condition. I am in the industry, and there is no person less expensive to insure than a young male (you probably pay more for your cable and high speed internet than a major medical insurance policy would cost you).

[implacable44]

There is a sad story in everyone. Challenges overcome - obstacles avoided - motivation found and goals accomplished with great achievements. For each success story there is also one of failure. Nobody has it as bad as say JOB but everyone has challenges - sadness, defeats and coupled with those life experiences are victories. We all experience them - What is different is how you respond to them.I grew up poor - I paid my way through school working a full-time job - see I am a Single White Male and that might be the worst thing to be because there is no funding for the single white male. there is no UNCF or native american grants -- no quotas to be filled etc... Like I said we all have challenges to overcome -the difference is how you respond to them - do you say screw it and label yourself a "victim" deferring blame and responsibility for your situation on to the government or do you stand up and take control of your life and your situation. Reliance on the government is never -- never a good thing IMO. - Special circumstances aside ( i.e. handicap etc) - You make your life. Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

So a single young mother , either by choice or circumstances, chooses to put her self through college. First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare. Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?


Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..

[implacable44]

It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

So a single young mother , either by choice or circumstances, chooses to put her self through college. First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare. Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?


Don't tell me your sad story because I have my own --- show me your character and integrity -- your resiliant defiance and ability to overcome that this great nation affords you with the freedom bought by folks with a much sadder story than any of us have....

This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..


actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.

[George Gervin's Afro]

actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.


so let's compromise..if the govt were to say "look i will give you a hand up to get on your feet but once you are there you are on your own". That is all I am asking from the govt. Some people want to get out of poverty but need a one time hand up.. I am not a proponent of the continual assistance but rather a 'one time' instance of assistance.. I will not try and defend Ted Kennedy.. he is not the voice you say he is but since it scores political points for the talk radio crowd he is propped up as a 'psuedo' spokesman..

[Mr. Peabody]

actualy it is more reality - be strong - make your own way. you know be self-sufficient and independent. Like say look at Ted Kennedy - all you need to know about him is what he did when he drove that car off the bridge and left that poor girl to die -- he went home and hid - hoping that someone else would clean up his mess. He depended on other people and he is the leader of this secular progressive - liberal movement-- well one of the high profile clowns anyway.

:rolleyes WTF? :rolleyes

[101A]

So a single young mother , either by choice or circumstances, chooses to put her self through college.

That's great! The definition of "Bootstraps".


First challenge finding afforfable child care? Second challenge finding a job that would allow her to go to school and support her children including healthcare.

Problem is, because of stupid bureacratic rules, if she has a job that provides healthcare - she probably makes too much to receive govt. subsidies for education and healthcare - only if she doesn't work, and stays COMPLETELY at the govt. teet, can she get ANYTHING. The system is set up to keep her dependent.


Third challenge finfing affordable heralthcare?...Should we as a society help her with through govt assistance? or does she need to pick herself up by the boot strap? or do we write her off?

I certainly don't want to write off somebody trying for a better life for herself and her child. BUT - if she works, our government will throw her AND HER CHILD off of Medicaid - again punished for succeeding. Same as a "progressive" income tax: It's the government way!


This is sort of the caveat of conservatism..everyone has a sad story. I made it so everyone else should..in other words I don't want to sound mean but my viewpoint won't allow for legitimate reasons why some people are poor or need help..

And your sort of liberal thinking - assuming conservatives want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, while taking a holier-than-thow attitude does nothing but prop up a system which keeps the poor poor, and with a vicitim mentality. You support programs to help the poor, but you never take a critical look at those programs; which generally perform an exact reverse function from there (generally noble) intentions.

[101A]

so let's compromise..if the govt were to say "look i will give you a hand up to get on your feet but once you are there you are on your own". That is all I am asking from the govt. Some people want to get out of poverty but need a one time hand up.. I am not a proponent of the continual assistance but rather a 'one time' instance of assistance..

So you're conservative!

Congratulations, Nazi. (just to get you used to being called names)

[implacable44]

why depend on the government ? where are these people families ? - why is this or that girl a single mother ?

[Mr. Peabody]

I grew up poor - I paid my way through school working a full-time job - see I am a Single White Male and that might be the worst thing to be because there is no funding for the single white male. there is no UNCF or native american grants -- no quotas to be filled etc... Like I said we all have challenges to overcome -the difference is how you respond to them - do you say screw it and label yourself a "victim"

After taking a look at the Executives and Boards of Directors for Fortune 500 companies, I can tell you that this statement is complete BULLSHIT!

[implacable44]

After taking a look at the Executives and Boards of Directors for Fortune 500 companies, I can tell you that this statement is complete BULLSHIT!


really ? - try to get into graduate school - or get a pell grant or scholarship - might not be true when it comes to the good ole boy network of corporate america but for college -- it does matter.

[Peter]

Wow. What a load of hogwash. The idea of the re-distribution of wealth comes from 200 years of laize-faire economic policy in this country that led to the largest economic collapse in the history of this nation,

When you ignore incredibly high tariff rates and a bungling Federal Reserve, you might have a point.



and allowed the creation of monopolies the likes of Standard Oil.


Standard Oil drove down the cost of petroleum products by a huge factor when it was an alleged evil monopoly. Granted, it didn't always compete on the fairest of terms, but if we are looking at the raw economic impact of its operations, it was a net plus for this country. Microsoft's OS became dominant, yet that made the power of computing available to people who would otherwise have no clue as to how to use a PC. The point is that monopolies themselves aren't the necessary evil to economic activity in this country that people assume them to be because their high school history teacher said they were. The monopolies to be concerned about are the ones created by law. Other monopolies come and go in this country over time if they don't continue to innovate. Who's most often in favor of anti-trust action? Less efficient competitors who find that when they can't compete in the marketplace, the courtroom is a much more pleasant battleground.



When you can buy the lawmakers, everything is legal. That should tell you, as scandal breaks in Washington, why money needs to be removed from the political system.

Actually, this tells you that less regulation is needed when it comes to campaign finance. Why should anyone be prohibited from spending their $ as they see fit to express themselves? If anything's changed in the last 20 years, it is the number of wealthy individuals in support of left of center causes. The way I see it, the "powerful" are going to find their way to make their voice heard. So why restrict everyone else?

[JoeChalupa]

I don't know where some of you get your ideas of what a liberal is.
I'm a liberal and have NEVER been any type of government assistance and have been working since I was old enough to pick tomatoes in the migrant fields.
Being a liberal does NOT keep you poor.
Stop listening to what Rush Limbaugh, Sean insHannity, Lara Ingram and all the other conservatives pundits spout to their listeners.

I'm a liberal and damn proud of it.

[implacable44]

I don't know where some of you get your ideas of what a liberal is.
I'm a liberal and have NEVER been any type of government assistance and have been working since I was old enough to pick tomatoes in the migrant fields.
Being a liberal does NOT keep you poor.
Stop listening to what Rush Limbaugh, Sean insHannity, Lara Ingram and all the other conservatives pundits spout to their listeners.

I'm a liberal and damn proud of it.


please define your meaning of liberal then

[Mr. Peabody]

really ? - try to get into graduate school - or get a pell grant or scholarship - might not be true when it comes to the good ole boy network of corporate america but for college -- it does matter.

Right, because when I was in graduate school, all I saw were minorities. :rolleyes

Come to think of it, I barely saw any minorities in my upper-level undergrad courses.

[implacable44]

Right, because when I was in graduate school, all I saw were minorities. :rolleyes

Come to think of it, I barely saw any minorities in my upper-level undergrad courses.

I am not talking about Pisson University clown - I am talking abotu Stanford - Duke - Harvard - Columbia - and how was that funding you got - from the UNCF?

[JoeChalupa]

please define your meaning of liberal then

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!

[Mr. Peabody]

I am not talking about Pisson University clown - I am talking abotu Stanford - Duke - Harvard - Columbia - and how was that funding you got - from the UNCF?

Let me get this straight, it is your argument that at tier 1 graduate schools, the majority of students are Blacks, Hispanics, etc.? :lol

[Peter]

Depending on the program, you might not see any Americans at all. That's the scary part. The K-12 education system in this country is failing to produce students who can take advantage of the opportunities present at the university level.

[Peter]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!


At this point, the only problem I have is when a "liberal" proposal entails nationalizing an industry. If you're for programs to help some needy people buy stuff, well, as much as I'd prefer the charity to come from private sources, I'm not going to care that much about it. JFK's liberalism seemed to embrace this POV. He understood that to reach liberal aims does not mean that you kill the golden goose that has created the wealth. His income tax rate cuts are a prime example. But I'm probably expecting too much from our politics. Take Social Security, for example. If the goal is to ensure that in retirement every American has some source of income, why not make it a true welfare program and give assistance to those who are truly needy? That would be much less costly, more effective and would end inequities such as lower income workers being taxed out the ass to pay benefits to wealthy retirees. Of course, we just had a supposedly conservative Republican president and Congress create another mammoth entitlement...

[implacable44]

Let me get this straight, it is your argument that at tier 1 graduate schools, the majority of students are Blacks, Hispanics, etc.? :lol


well no - now you are being cynical and stupid - Are you sure you went to grad school on the dime of the UNCF or some other organization to benefit only minorities. ? Devry doesn't count. I mean I tried to get that white boy scholarship but nobody offered it - they said such a grant or scholarship would be racist in nature - wierd huh or double standard at the least?

As far as acceptance goes it surely matters and of course you have the legacy students who are just about guaranteed entry. the pool you compete with as a white male without legacy status is pretty tight.

[implacable44]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!

so more government programs / funding - maybe government healthcare so more taxes and less ownership of your life and less reward for your hard work. Does this include referencing the courts of foreign countires in your judicial opinions as a part of your liberal activism ?

[Mr. Peabody]

well no - now you are being cynical and stupid - Are you sure you went to grad school on the dime of the UNCF or some other organization to benefit only minorities. ? Devry doesn't count. I mean I tried to get that white boy scholarship but nobody offered it - they said such a grant or scholarship would be racist in nature - wierd huh or double standard at the least?


:lol

Such animosity.

Maybe you should have picked yourself up by the bootstraps, instead of relying on others to help you get along.

[implacable44]

:lol

Such animosity.

Maybe you should have picked yourself up by the bootstraps, instead of relying on others to help you get along.


good point -- that is exactly what I did - I got a job -- worked full time putting myself through grad school and now I am better for it. You won't hear me complain about it - I just think it is funny how you are trying to deny the reality of what exists. Huge double standard - but then you are probably hypocritical in just about every aspect of your life because that is what you have learned from these terrible entitlement programs that have been established -- you know creating - even inspiring people to become "victims" so that the government can save them -- all the while costing me more and more money in taxes.

[JoeChalupa]

Stop spinning and just read it for what it is.

It really isn't that hard but I know that "libera" has become a bad word amongs the conservative crowd and I applaud Rove for doing a great job on that.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all conservatives are racist, bible-thumping, anti-woman's rights, NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving, war mongering people because they are not.

I'm conservative on many issues but not by limiting other's rights to do it.

[Peter]

Perhaps a "liberal" can help me out. If you're for assistance helping "needy" individuals does that necessarily entail a handout to the middle class? I don't really understand that. Should having a "safety net" for our society entail assisting those who are capable of making it on their own? That is much more costly than merely providing government assistance to the truly needy in our society.

[implacable44]

Stop spinning and just read it for what it is.

It really isn't that hard but I know that "libera" has become a bad word amongs the conservative crowd and I applaud Rove for doing a great job on that.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that all conservatives are racist, bible-thumping, anti-woman's rights, NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving, war mongering people because they are not.

I'm conservative on many issues but not by limiting other's rights to do it.


who is limiting your rights ?

[SpursWoman]

Hey! I got a white-girl scholarship!










Oh, wait ... but it was to a school that was primarily (by coincidence or whatever) hispanic. n/m. :lol

[Mr. Peabody]

good point -- that is exactly what I did - I got a job -- worked full time putting myself through grad school and now I am better for it. You won't hear me complain about it

Really, because your comments sounded like complaints. Maybe I was misinterpreting them?


I just think it is funny how you are trying to deny the reality of what exists. .

You made the comment that being a white male is the worst thing to be and I am denying the reality of what exists?



Huge double standard - but then you are probably hypocritical in just about every aspect of your life because that is what you have learned from these terrible entitlement programs that have been established -- you know creating - even inspiring people to become "victims" so that the government can save them -- all the while costing me more and more money in taxes.

From someone who complained about being unfairly treated because of his race, blaming people for becoming "victims" is somewhat hypocritical don't you think?

[Peter]

I'm just amazed that it's 2006 and people still are thinking in terms of race.

[101A]

I'm a JFK liberal and he said it best:

Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

That's me and I'm stickin' to it.

Fire away!



That's the definition of liberal? All is he said is "I Care" and "I believe".

Well, I also:

care about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties

I even:

believe we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad


So what's the point - there is nothing revolutionary here. I bet he was also for momma, apple pie & baseball!

[Darrin]

[QUOTE=101A]A gallon of milk was not 89 cents in 1989, nor was gas less than a buck in 1999 - you're about a decade off on each; and btw; inflation has been under control that entire time.

First, the numbers are inverted. Milk was 1.09, the gas was .89 cents. I wasn't talking about national averages; I was talking about the price of goods in the community in which I live.


Our government should be there to help those most unfortunate in our society; but unfortunately the government is ill-equipped to do so, and is about the most inefficient entity in the world at redistributing "wealth" to those in need.

Worker programs, social security, subsidizing farmers for not growing crops, medicare, subsidizing artists - all of these programs have been successful. The problem is, we have become allergic to taxes and suddenly the majority of Americans feel that a progressive tax is unfair when it's been around for 150 years.


Also, there are more and more studies which indicate that money is NOT what the public education system in this country needs (it has more of that than ever in its history) - competition is.

I got into trouble when I was younger and had to take an extra year to get through night school. On the last day of my classes, I had stayed in the classroom with an exceptional teacher - full of energy, loved his job, creative in his teaching methods - but this particular day he seemed not himself. It seemed that after working in this same school teaching American History and Science for twelve years, he was going to have to interview for his job.

The state has cut education funding across the board because of financial troubles. The schools in 90% of the cases would not be affected long-term by these budget cuts if the "No Child Left Behind" program had not been enacted. But because the school district has to fight for its life, they down-sized the alternative education program (adult education, special needs such as paralisis, cerebral palsy, ADD, and GED prep). The School District doesn't just work with their community - since the areas surrounding it do not have a strong alternative education program they serve parts of six school districts. The district had two buildings - an old elementary school and the old administrative building. The administrative building was closing; they could no longer guarantee they could keep that school open and not lose more funding for K-12. And since there was going to be two science and history departments, they needed to downsize the staff.

Michigan schools have lost between 1-5% of its state funding. In rural communities, that can mean the difference between new school books or fixing a leaky roof.

So at a time when the Michigan economy is in crisis - GM has cut 30% of its work force in the Motor City - we are educating our kids less. The possibility of advancement for the future will continue to make the problem worse.


It's strange: my wife began life in an even more poor family than yours, on the poor side of a poor Texas town - but now after working two jobs to put herself through college and graduate school, and our family now having pretty much realized the American Dream - has no sympathy or patience for those who won't pick themselves up by their bootstraps and do something with their lives - she is much more adamant in her conservatism than I (a really odd-ball considering she is a professor now at a N.Eastern University).

My mother took us to Latchkey at 5:30 AM in the morning, she went into her job at 6:30 AM, left that job at 5:30 PM, pick us kids up at the house, and took us to her second job cleaning the offices that she worked at in the daytime. She made this extra 40-minute round trip just so that we could see her during the day. Three years into this arrangement the she was let go from her job because the boss sold the company. I realize that's personal, but take it out of the example and look at the larger picture: where does that type of family fit into your wife's thinking? My mother is currently living in a house she inherited from her mother. Where is the social mobility for these families? There's a lot of them around here - two-year college graduates that used to be on the assembly lines for your car. They are unemployed without the ability to re-train because funding for schools have been cut, and having mouths to feed. What do we tell them? Are they lazy?


The solution to poverty is a job,

On this we can agree.


not a government program. I know that is a callous observation, but it is an accurate one. There have been government programs designed to educate people, and help them get jobs, but these have been sparse, and their success has been questionable, just like ALL government, beuracratic programs.

So...what's the point of the legislative body? Is it just to make sure gays can't marry? :)

The point of this body is to serve the American people. Government assistance isn't a lifestyle, and despite the stereotype, not everyone on Government assistance is milking the system for all its worth.


BTW: Your not having health insurance, as a young man, is a choice, not a condition. I am in the industry, and there is no person less expensive to insure than a young male (you probably pay more for your cable and high speed internet than a major medical insurance policy would cost you).

Wow, thanks! I'll run right out and get it! My lazy ass must not have looked into health insurance plan at my part-time job. And, by the way, my internet and cable is split between four people. I have to pay out of pocket for every single class I take, unless I want to join the military or go into debt for a community college education.

Would you like to take a look at my financial statement?

[Oh, Gee!!]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?

[Mr. Peabody]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?

I don't know. He touts the importance of being self-reliant and pulling yourself up by the "bootstraps," (meanwhile slamming the less fortunate) and then compains that the system is rigged against him because no one would give him money for college.

What a hypocritical asshole!

[JoeChalupa]

That's the definition of liberal? All is he said is "I Care" and "I believe".

Well, I also:

care about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties

I even:

believe we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad


So what's the point - there is nothing revolutionary here. I bet he was also for momma, apple pie & baseball!

And for good sex!

Live and let live is my motto....what's the motto with you?

Bottom line is that we'll have to agree to disagree.
My parents worked their way up with only 6th grade educations and fought through the language barriers and yes, racism...and if you don't think it still exists you are fooling yourself.
We were never on food stamps or govt assistance and I'm proud to say that I am who I am because of the values instilled in me by my parents.

Fire away!

[implacable44]

Really, because your comments sounded like complaints. Maybe I was misinterpreting them?



You made the comment that being a white male is the worst thing to be and I am denying the reality of what exists?



From someone who complained about being unfairly treated because of his race, blaming people for becoming "victims" is somewhat hypocritical don't you think?


That is your interpretation of my comments - I am not complaining merely making a statement.

When you are either looking into a tier 1 grad school or looking to get government grants / scholarships for college being a single white male is the worst thing you can be.

i don't care that I was unfairly treated -- I dont even know that it is unfair -- I think it is a double standard and affirmative action is a joke but the point is - those are mere obstacles - part of one person's sad story -- irrelevant if you take the initiative and depend on yourself and not the government.

again- I am not complaining - merely stating facts.

[Darrin]

I'm just amazed that it's 2006 and people still are thinking in terms of race.


Because the Sins of the Father...

I don't know where you live, but I live in one of the most racially divided communities I can imagine. Where I live, there are no African Americans. None. There has been an influx of Arab-Americans and Indian-Americans into the area, but the surrounding communities are white as they come.

See, in the 1970s, the Supreme Court ruled that to fully integrate our schools, districts had to cross lines. In the cities of Detroit as well as Pontiac, white residents fled to neighboring farming communities. The result was an economic windfall - Pontiac and Detroit schools are dilapidated in terms of the buildings and the education provided to the students.

Meanwhile, Communities like Bloomfield Hills (home to a top-3 School in the nation), Rochester, and Clarkston are thriving white-collar communities. And when I say white-collar that's not just a financial distinction, it's a racial one.

We inherit the world the previous generations left. So the financial mobility - the status passed from one generation to the other is light years behind the community that wasn't enslaved, that was integrated into our society. So stereotypes will not die in this area because the majority of African Americans in this area are poorer than whites. If you're poor, you're more likely to be on drugs, do crime. So, while the equation has been reversed, the result is the same - the African Americans are assumed to be less educated, more poor, and less skilled than their white counterpart.

In July, a storm brewed in this area over a new Wal-Mart. A neighboring community to Detroit was the location Wal-Mart had chosen. Citizens complained that a bargain-store would introduce a poor element into the community and there would be more black people and crack addicts, something they apparently wanted out of the their community.

That was July, 2005 not 1955. Race permiates not only this area, but the country we have inherited.

[implacable44]

I don't know. He touts the importance of being self-reliant and pulling yourself up by the "bootstraps," (meanwhile slamming the less fortunate) and then compains that the system is rigged against him because no one would give him money for college.

What a hypocritical asshole!


again I am not complaining UNCF Peabody - I am pointing out truths.

I am not slamming the less fortunate either. I am saying people should not depend on the government - it makes you weak.

*clarification* I did not get money for Grad school - my undergrad degree was paid for in full with an athletic scholarship.

[Oh, Gee!!]

again I am not complaining UNCF Peabody - I am pointing out truths.

How do you know Peabody didn't pay his own way through school?

[implacable44]

implacable44 is not sounding very christian-like. Why the personal attacks on Peabody?


This from an atheist or agnostic or whatever you are? You are demanding I be more Christ like because????? - please do not worry or fear for me as my relationship with Diety is just fine.

[implacable44]

How do you know Peabody didn't pay his own way through school?

I dont -

[Oh, Gee!!]

This from an atheist or agnostic or whatever you are? You are demanding I be more Christ like because????? - please do not worry or fear for me as my relationship with Diety is just fine.

Why do you assume that I don't believe in God?

[implacable44]

it suits me. don't we all assume just about everything when it comes to message boards and the internet. It suits me based on previous comments you have made in other forums. One can't be as stupid as you are and believe in Diety can they ?

[Oh, Gee!!]

it suits me. don't we all assume just about everything when it comes to message boards and the internet. It suits me based on previous comments you have made in other forums. One can't be as stupid as you are and believe in Diety can they ?

Why all the hate?

[implacable44]

no hate - just truth. If I felt Hate then I would resort to using vulgar language much like you resort too when your intellect fails you.

[Mr. Peabody]

it suits me. don't we all assume just about everything when it comes to message boards and the internet. It suits me based on previous comments you have made in other forums. One can't be as stupid as you are and believe in Diety can they ?

:lol I love it when you Christians act like assholes. It just reveals how hypocritical you are as individuals. :lol

[Mr. Peabody]

again I am not complaining UNCF Peabody - I am pointing out truths.



:rolleyes The truth is that if your performance in undergrad was worth a shit, you might have received a few scholarships. Quit blaming your mediocre life on others.

You calling yourself a conservative is hypocritical and you calling yourself a Christian is hypocritical.

[implacable44]

:lol I love it when you Christians act like assholes. It just reveals how hypocritical you are as individuals. :lol


I love it when you morons resort to vulgar language because you are too stupid to talk about anything else.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I love it when you morons resort to vulgar language because you are too stupid to talk about anything else.

irony

[Mr. Peabody]

I love it when you morons resort to vulgar language because you are too stupid to talk about anything else.

You're the one spouting off hate, blasting the UNCF and other minority programs, all while labeling yourself a Christian, and I am the moron? :lol :rolleyes :lol

[Mr. Peabody]

I love it when you morons resort to vulgar language because you are too stupid to talk about anything else.

Right, you didn't get any scholarships, but it was only because the system is rigged against the white man. :rolleyes

And you criticize others for playing the role of the victim? :lol

[implacable44]

:rolleyes The truth is that if your performance in undergrad was worth a shit, you might have received a few scholarships. Quit blaming your mediocre life on others.

You calling yourself a conservative is hypocritical and you calling yourself a Christian is hypocritical.


or I could have been a minority -

[implacable44]

You're the one spouting off hate, blasting the UNCF and other minority programs, all while labeling yourself a Christian, and I am the moron? :lol :rolleyes :lol


I havent blasted anyone - the UNCF serves a purpose - I think it is funny that there is no UCCF and if there were one, it would be labeled a racist organization.

[implacable44]

Right, you didn't get any scholarships, but it was only because the system is rigged against the white man. :rolleyes

And you criticize others for playing the role of the victim? :lol


Nope that isn't entirely true either.

[Peter]

You're the one spouting off hate, blasting the UNCF and other minority programs, all while labeling yourself a Christian, and I am the moron? :lol :rolleyes :lol


I don't believe that criticizing preferential treatment on the basis of race constitutes a blasphemy, be it UNCF, legacy admissions, or whatever.

[Darrin]

:lol I love it when you Christians act like assholes. It just reveals how hypocritical you are as individuals. :lol

I believe in God, I just can't stand his fan clubs. And neither did Christ, by the by, or was it some other son of God I remember tossing tables and throwing a hissy fit because people were making money off his father?

[Peter]

I believe in God, I just can't stand his fan clubs. And neither did Christ, by the by, or was it some other son of God I remember tossing tables and throwing a hissy fit because people were making money off his father?


Indeed. Which is why trying to find hypocrisy among Christians is pointless. The faith is about man not being infalliable and needing Christ. I guess it's a fun diversion though.

[Mr. Peabody]

I don't believe that criticizing preferential treatment on the basis of race constitutes a blasphemy, be it UNCF, legacy admissions, or whatever.

I didn't say it did.

However, slamming an organization that provides money for the education of needy minorities, solely because they provide money for education of needy minorities, doesn't seem very Christ-like.

[implacable44]

I didn't slam anyone - just stated a fact

[Peter]

If the criticism is based on the race factor, that's open to debate.

[2centsworth]

Being a Christian is just someone who admits they are flawed and accepts the forgiveness of Jesus, so I don't see Implacable's hypocrisy. Should a Christian do his best to be an example to the world, of course, but no one is perfect.

As far as Cuban's are concerned, Castro let in 150k of his criminals into the states. Yes, many educated cubans immigrated to this country, but I don't see how that helps my cousin who doesn't speak a lick of English and is now a Janitor when she was a Pediatrician in Cuba. Her license does not transfer. However, I'm willing to bet she'll live the American Dream because she is going to work her butt off.


There's hope for everyone no matter who you are and what your background. There are just a lot of people who don't get what it takes, and they don't want to get it either. They are happy living there lives off the government, and a lot of people in power have a vested interest in keeping them that way.

[Mr. Peabody]

Being a Christian is just someone who admits they are flawed and accepts the forgiveness of Jesus, so I don't see Implacable's hypocrisy. Should a Christian do his best to be an example to the world, of course, but no one is perfect.



So being a Christian also gives you license to be an asshole because it proves that you really do need Christ? :lol :lol

No wonder your numbers are growing!

What makes you a Christian then? Merely claiming that you are a Christian? You don't have to adhere to any teachings or anything? Is this like being a Compassionate Conservative?

[Oh, Gee!!]

but I don't see how that helps my cousin who doesn't speak a lick of English and is now a Janitor when she was a Pediatrician in Cuba. Her license does not transfer.

your cousin is a janitor? :lol

[Mr. Peabody]

As far as Cuban's are concerned, Castro let in 150k of his criminals into the states. Yes, many educated cubans immigrated to this country, but I don't see how that helps my cousin who doesn't speak a lick of English and is now a Janitor when she was a Pediatrician in Cuba. Her license does not transfer. However, I'm willing to bet she'll live the American Dream because she is going to work her butt off.



WTF? Someone stated that Cubans came over poor and are now the wealthiest Hispanic group. My point was that they came over educated and with money. How does your story about your janitor cousin fit in this dialogue?

[2centsworth]

So being a Christian also gives you license to be an asshole because it proves that you really do need Christ? :lol :lol

No wonder your numbers are growing!

What makes you a Christian then? Merely claiming that you are a Christian? You don't have to adhere to any teachings or anything? Is this like being a Compassionate Conservative?
You're obviously not open to conversation so I'm not going to engage you at least for today. Some of what you say has merit but I don't want to waste any more breath on you today.

[Yonivore]

You're obviously not open to conversation so I'm not going to engage you at least for today. Some of what you say has merit but I don't want to waste any more breath on you today.
I think it's cool you can breath on your keyboard and produce a post!

[2centsworth]

WTF? Someone stated that Cubans came over poor and are now the wealthiest Hispanic group. My point was that they came over educated and with money. How does your story about your janitor cousin fit in this dialogue?
There was a good mix of Rich and Poor, note the 150k criminals that came over. BTW, what's your source that they came with money because I don't know many that did and I know half of Miami.

[2centsworth]

your cousin is a janitor? :lol
Yup, and what's so funny?

[Mr. Peabody]

There was a good mix of Rich and Poor, note the 150k criminals that came over. BTW, what's your source that they came with money because I don't know many that did and I know half of Miami.

My sources are the many references to this fact I have heard throughout my life, but if you need something to read --

World Book (http://www.worldbook.com/wc/popup?path=features/cinco&page=html/hispanic_immigration.html&direct=yes)

History of Hispanic American immigration

The Hispanic presence in what is now the United States actually began before the country existed. Spanish explorers established colonies in what would become the Southeast and Southwest regions of the United States.

Cuban immigration

Cuban immigration to the United States picked up sharply during the late 1950's, as a result of increasing political turmoil in Cuba. Until the mid-1950's, only a few thousand Cubans came to the United States each year. But during the late 1950's and early 1960's, the number of Cuban immigrants increased dramatically. In 1959, Cuban revolutionary Fidel Castro came to power. He announced the restructuring of Cuban society. Many middle- and upper-class Cubans found Castro's plans threatening to their way of life. Between 1959 and late 1962, about 200,000 anti-Castro Cubans immigrated to the United States.

In October 1962, commercial air flights between Cuba and the United States were suspended. Nonetheless, about 50,000 Cubans entered the United States between late 1962 and 1965. Many of these people sailed secretly from Cuba in small boats, some of which were apprehended by the Cuban navy before they reached the United States. In 1965, the United States and Cuban governments agreed to set up an airlift between Cuba and Miami. The airlift brought about 250,000 Cubans into the United States between 1966 and 1973.

Until 1986, the United States admitted most Cuban immigrants who claimed to be seeking political asylum. Many of the first Cubans to flee in the early 1960's were from wealthy families and were well educated. The U.S. government granted asylum to these people and offered federal help to qualified applicants in finding homes and in making job contacts. Most later Cuban immigrants were relatives of the first group or were poor people looking for work.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Yup, and what's so funny?


Nothing, I just love the politician-esque anecdote you used as evidence of your larger point.

[2centsworth]

My sources are the many references to this fact I have heard throughout my life, but if you need something to read --

World Book (http://www.worldbook.com/wc/popup?path=features/cinco&page=html/hispanic_immigration.html&direct=yes)

History of Hispanic American immigration

The Hispanic presence in what is now the United States actually began before the country existed. Spanish explorers established colonies in what would become the Southeast and Southwest regions of the United States.

Cuban immigration

Cuban immigration to the United States picked up sharply during the late 1950's, as a result of increasing political turmoil in Cuba. Until the mid-1950's, only a few thousand Cubans came to the United States each year. But during the late 1950's and early 1960's, the number of Cuban immigrants increased dramatically. In 1959, Cuban revolutionary Fidel Castro came to power. He announced the restructuring of Cuban society. Many middle- and upper-class Cubans found Castro's plans threatening to their way of life. Between 1959 and late 1962, about 200,000 anti-Castro Cubans immigrated to the United States.

In October 1962, commercial air flights between Cuba and the United States were suspended. Nonetheless, about 50,000 Cubans entered the United States between late 1962 and 1965. Many of these people sailed secretly from Cuba in small boats, some of which were apprehended by the Cuban navy before they reached the United States. In 1965, the United States and Cuban governments agreed to set up an airlift between Cuba and Miami. The airlift brought about 250,000 Cubans into the United States between 1966 and 1973.

Until 1986, the United States admitted most Cuban immigrants who claimed to be seeking political asylum. Many of the first Cubans to flee in the early 1960's were from wealthy families and were well educated. The U.S. government granted asylum to these people and offered federal help to qualified applicants in finding homes and in making job contacts. Most later Cuban immigrants were relatives of the first group or were poor people looking for work.there are over 1.5 million cubans in this country. Your article tells me along with the wealthy came a lot of not so wealthy too. A good mix like I said.

Contrast that to the Puerto Ricans who are full fledge citizens of the US.

IMO the reason Cubans do very well in the US is because they have experienced communism.

[Mr. Peabody]

there are over 1.5 million cubans in this country. Your article tells me along with the wealthy came a lot of not so wealthy too. A good mix like I said.

Well, contrast that with the other Hispanic groups that are immigrating to the US and I think you will find that the "mix" is not so good.

[2centsworth]

Well, contrast that with the other Hispanic groups that are immigrating to the US and I think you will find that the "mix" is not so good.
I'm not denegrating other hispanics. I'm more proping up a minority class. Nevertheless, when I say good mix I mean most of the people who immigrated were not rich.

[Mr. Peabody]

I'm not denegrating other hispanics. I'm more proping up a minority class. Nevertheless, when I say good mix I mean most of the people who immigrated were not rich.

Oh, I wasn't saying that you were denigrating other Hispanic groups. I only used other Hispanic groups to make the point that the Cuban-Americans are unique, in that they came to this country with resources at their disposal. They weren't dirt poor, as was stated.

[2centsworth]

Oh, I wasn't saying that you were denigrating other Hispanic groups. I only used other Hispanic groups to make the point that the Cuban-Americans are unique, in that they came to this country with resources at their disposal. They weren't dirt poor, as was stated.Most came and still come without many resources. However, resources aside the Cuban Community as a whole has a very entrepreneurial attitude.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm already rich for I have friends..trolls..and a man with friends is the richest man in town.

Robin Hood had a good idea it was those damn tights that did him in.

[2centsworth]

I'm already rich for I have friends..trolls..and a man with friends is the richest man in town.

Robin Hood had a good idea it was those damn tights that did him in.
Friends and family do make a person rich, no doubt!

[Peter]

So being a Christian also gives you license to be an asshole because it proves that you really do need Christ? :lol :lol

No wonder your numbers are growing!

What makes you a Christian then? Merely claiming that you are a Christian? You don't have to adhere to any teachings or anything? Is this like being a Compassionate Conservative?


Faith. Accepting Christ as your savior. It doesn't mean that you have a license to do as you please, for you will have to answer to someone sooner or later.

[Darrin]

Indeed. Which is why trying to find hypocrisy among Christians is pointless. The faith is about man not being infalliable and needing Christ. I guess it's a fun diversion though.

As a fellow Christian, I find this a very convienent interpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Being a good Christian (and really just a good human being) means that there is no judgement of the individual person, and that it's a sin to do so. Judgement is reserved for God.

The act of sin is seperate from the man; The man can always be redeemed, even in the last moments of life. Does this mean there are no responsibilities for ones actions, as your post seems to suggest? It's quite the opposite. Only in realizing the full impact of ones sins, can true repentance take place. Saying "I'm weak" and continuing with the action is lip service and preying on the compassion of others. Stating beliefs contrary to your actions when it is known a sin is being committed is a sin onto itself.

Bottom line: There is no room for hypocricy in the life of a Christian. Once hypocricy is realized, it must be corrected or it's a sin.

[2centsworth]

As a fellow Christian, I find this a very convienent interpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Being a good Christian (and really just a good human being) means that there is no judgement of the individual person, and that it's a sin to do so. Judgement is reserved for God.

The act of sin is seperate from the man; The man can always be redeemed, even in the last moments of life. Does this mean there are no responsibilities for ones actions, as your post seems to suggest? It's quite the opposite. Only in realizing the full impact of ones sins, can true repentance take place. Saying "I'm weak" and continuing with the action is lip service and preying on the compassion of others. Stating beliefs contrary to your actions when it is known a sin is being committed is a sin onto itself.

Bottom line: There is no room for hypocricy in the life of a Christian. Once hypocricy is realized, it must be corrected or it's a sin.
Fantastic post!

[implacable44]

As a fellow Christian, I find this a very convienent interpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Being a good Christian (and really just a good human being) means that there is no judgement of the individual person, and that it's a sin to do so. Judgement is reserved for God.

The act of sin is seperate from the man; The man can always be redeemed, even in the last moments of life. Does this mean there are no responsibilities for ones actions, as your post seems to suggest? It's quite the opposite. Only in realizing the full impact of ones sins, can true repentance take place. Saying "I'm weak" and continuing with the action is lip service and preying on the compassion of others. Stating beliefs contrary to your actions when it is known a sin is being committed is a sin onto itself.

Bottom line: There is no room for hypocricy in the life of a Christian. Once hypocricy is realized, it must be corrected or it's a sin.


or maybe God has counseled you to judge with a righteous judgment - john 7:24.

but as for my part -- I didn't judge an individual like peabody accuses me of - I stated facts regarding an institutional error.

[Peter]

As a fellow Christian, I find this a very convienent interpretation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Being a good Christian (and really just a good human being) means that there is no judgement of the individual person, and that it's a sin to do so. Judgement is reserved for God.

The act of sin is seperate from the man; The man can always be redeemed, even in the last moments of life. Does this mean there are no responsibilities for ones actions, as your post seems to suggest? It's quite the opposite. Only in realizing the full impact of ones sins, can true repentance take place. Saying "I'm weak" and continuing with the action is lip service and preying on the compassion of others. Stating beliefs contrary to your actions when it is known a sin is being committed is a sin onto itself.

Bottom line: There is no room for hypocricy in the life of a Christian. Once hypocricy is realized, it must be corrected or it's a sin.


The bottom line is that hypocrisy is to be expected from man, Christian or not. Man never ceases to be without sin before the physical death. Only one man lived and died without sin. Telling me that you found a Christian who's sinned lately is not new news. Sure, how they deal with their sins is rather important, but the mere fact of having sinned does not mean they are not Christian. You extrapolated a bit too far.

[2centsworth]

The bottom line is that hypocrisy is to be expected from man, Christian or not. Man never ceases to be without sin before the physical death. Only one man lived and died without sin. Telling me that you found a Christian who's sinned lately is not new news. Sure, how they deal with their sins is rather important, but the mere fact of having sinned does not mean they are not Christian. You extrapolated a bit too far.
There's a difference between someone who willfully sins and someone who slips into sin.

[Peter]

There's a difference between someone who willfully sins and someone who slips into sin.

Again, Christians do sin, even after being saved. How do you know if someone is willfully sinning or has merely slipped? You don't. Again, as I have stated in this thread, a Christian does have to account for those sins, but the notion that man continues to sin in this life is a part of the faith. That doesn't mean I am saying that the Christian has some license to do so, but a rather key assumption in the faith is that no man was ever perfect save for one.