Detroit Pistons and Flip Saunders

[conqueso]

I'm sure this has been cursorily discussed in a dozen different threads, but I thought maybe if there's any interest we could focus on it here. Here's my question:

How will Flip's coaching affect the Pistons in the playoffs?

We all know what a wonderful job Flip has been doing this year with the Pistons. He has "taken the Larry Brown shackles off their offense," as ESPN repeats ad nauseum. And despite everyone's expectations, they have maintained the defensive intensity they had under LB. However, there is another difference between the two coaches. Brown was a proven winner at both the college level and in the NBA Playoffs. Flip has not been a proven winner in the playoffs. So I think the question just kinda naturally comes up: will Flip's past postseason failures make a difference?

I guess there are two schools of thought on this issue. One is that the fact that Flip is not a very good coach in the postseason will not affect Detroit; the entire team has tasted playoff success, the boneheaded calls that their coach is destined to make at the end of games won't disrupt their focus, and his air of failure won't rub off on his team. The other is that Flip will fail again; he's coached great teams with superstars in the past and gotten his ass whipped over and over again, and also lacks the experience and instinct needed to perform at a high level in pressure-packed NBA Finals situations.

I don't really know how I would answer this question, which is why I appeal to the San Antonio and Detroit fans on SpursTalk. I can see both arguments, and one doesn't stand out to me as being better than the other. So I've compiled some relevant stats about Flip in the past, and maybe they'll help us out.

Flip's coaching career:
Year Reg. Season Post Season Lost to
95-96: 20-42 (.323)
96-97: 40-42 (.488) 0-3 (.000) Rockets - 1st
97-98: 45-39 (.536) 2-3 (.400) Sonics - 1st
98-99: 25-25 (.500) 1-3 (.250) Spurs* - 1st
99-00: 50-32 (.610) 1-3 (.250) Blazers - 1st
00-01: 47-35 (.573) 1-3 (.250) Spurs - 1st
01-02: 50-32 (.610) 0-3 (.000) Mavs - 1st
02-03: 51-31 (.622) 2-4 (.500) Lakers - 1st
03-04: 58-24 (.707) 10-8 (.556) Lakers - WCF
04-05: 25-26 (.490)
Totals 411-328 (.556) 17-30 (.362) 2-8
* - Loss to eventual NBA Champion

As far as the coaches he's faced in the Post Season:
Rudy T: 0-1
George Karl: 0-1
Pop: 0-2
Mike Dunleavy: 0-1
Don Nelson: 0-1
Phil: 0-2
Rick Adelman: 1-0
Jeff Bzdelik: 1-0

A little history:
Flip took over the T-Wolves 20 games into the 95-96 season, KG's rookie year...that team also featured Rider, Laettner, Gugliotta, and Sam Mitchell, but failed to make the playoffs...96-97 team drafted Stephon Marubury (he averaged 15.8 ppg and 7.8 apg)...KG and Gugliotta were All-Stars...swept by Rockets (with Dream, Barkley and Clyde)...forced to trade Marbury and not resign Gugliotta in 98-99 because of the huge contract McHale gave KG (6 years, $126 million)...Terrell Brandon took over for Marbury and averaged 14.2 ppg and 9.8 apg...lost to eventual NBA Champion Spurs in the first round, but were one of only two teams to win a game against the Spurs in the playoffs that year...drafted Wally in 99-00...forfeited 5 drafts picks and fined $3.5 million in 00-01 for shady dealings with Joe Smith...swept by Dallas in 01-02...KG finishes second in MVP voting in 02-03 and play the Lakers tough, losing in 6 games...sign Sprewell and Cassell in 03-04 and KG is MVP...once again lose in 6 to the Lakers (with Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Phil) after advancing past the first round of the playoffs for the first time in seven post season appearances...Spree and Sam turned out to be whiny little bitches in 04-05, and Flip was fired after 51 games.

So pretending to be a Flip apologist for a second, he had to deal with ill-timed injuries, primadonna role players, and NBA sanctions during his tenure with T-Wolves, so it should be no surprise that he couldn't win in the playoffs. On the other side of the aisle, he coached KG (who some might argue is the best power forward of all time) and had oodles of talent on most of the teams he went down in flames with in the post season.

This year, he inherited a pre-built team that had already been trained in how to play the type of defense that Flip couldn't ever seem to coax out of any of his T-Wolves teams. He didn't fuck around with a good thing and install all of those crazy zones he used frequently in Minnesota, but has instead "opened up the offense" by giving Rip and Chauncey and Sheed green lights to play with the creativity that would have made Larry Brown's bladder burst. (I mean seriously, what do you think would have happened if Rasheed had launched up 9 three-pointers and made only 1 under LB's watch? Would Larry Brown's head have exploded like that guy in the Chappelle Show skit about the black white supremicist? This is an honest question.) As a result, the Pistons are clearly the finest team in the NBA so far this season, and there are still people out there who talk seriously about 70 wins.

A couple of things to consider though. Will the Pistons' defense remain as lethal as it has been? In other words, is their defensive success this year attributable more to momentum and the residual lingerings of LB's coaching, or is it ingrained in the players, a self-perpetuating training that needs no reinforcement? How will Flip keep the Pistons going if injury strikes one of those high-30's mpg starters on a team with what really amounts to a 7-man rotation and wants for depth? What will happen when Flip and his assistants face a superior coaching staff in a 7 game series? Comments?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nice freakin' post!


For anyone new to the posting game, that's how it's done. . .Admiral style!





To respond, I think the personnel of the Pistons' team dictates that they'll be just as good defensively as they've always been. What makes this team great are the pieces that have been assembled.

Flip is a better coach than people give him credit for. The Wolves haven't done anything since he's left. My thought is that his Wolves teams were probably over-achieving in the regular season only to be exposed in the playoffs.

The Pistons don't have any big weaknesses, and I don't see anyone exploiting any major team defect come playoff time. The only team with the talent to beat them is the Spurs, and it will have to be a focussed determined Spurs team, not the one that's been playing so far this season.

I'm not a huge Flip Saunders fan, but I think his coaching legacy of not being able to win in the playoffs will probably change this year.

[timvp]

Nice post.

The scariest thing to me about the Pistons is Flip is their coach. Not because he's a great coach, but because the team wants to prove it wasn't just Larry Brown that led them to a championship.

I don't think he's a good defensive coach, but the players on that team are great across the board defensively, so Joe Dumars was smart enough to just concentrate on the offensive side of the court when pick a new head coach. Want to know how good of an offensive coach Flip Sanders is? Rasho averaged over 11 points per game in his system.

'Nuff said.

[FreshPrince22]

This same exact thing has been posted 100000000 times.

I would be concerned if it weren't for the fact that all of those playoff appearances were with the same team and (most importantly) the same key player. Untill it happens in a different situation, you can just as easily say it was the players. And those Wolves teams were big time overachievers. If you consider guys like Wally, old-Cassell, and cancer-Spree "oodles of talent" you're :drunk. As you can see with what's going on right now, KG is not capable of putting a team on his back and into the playoffs, much less the finals. And since when was Larry Brown a "proven Post-season winner" before he came to the Pistons? The guy only made the Finals 1 time in his career, and that was during the year when the East was probably the worst conference in the history of the NBA.

You are also incorrect about many assessments of this current team. The Pistons defense has gotten notably BETTER as the season has gone on. That doesn't really support the theory that the defense was from "residual lingerings of LB's coaching". Pistons "D" being good had a lot more to do with Big Ben, Sheed, Tayshaun, and Billups than it had to do with a coach.

Also, the fact that Sheed can go 1 for 9 and not get reamed a new one is part of why this team is playing so well (on that note, similar numbers happend under LB that people forget about, but LB played favorites and didn't do anything). You can't have a guy worrying every time he takes a shot. That throws shooters out of rhythm, and forces even more misses.

The minutes issue is another thing is another issue that is extremely overblown. The Pistons don't have ANY players in the top 32 in MPG, and the only guy in the top 40 is Rip Hamilton. Who is probably the most physically fit player in the league. They also play LESS minutes than they did last year. Period. End of Topic.

As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

You can keep looking for weaknesses all you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[polandprzem]

yup.

At the begining of a season I was thinking about realy good year by the Pistons, and a collapse in the playoffs, but they passed enybodys expectations going nust in the fisrts half of a season.
I do not see a team in the Estern coast able to beat them and they could go sleepwalking through Eastern Conf. and be fresh going into the Finals. And probably they will be the favorites.
They are hungry , they want the championship back , they want to prove it was not all about Larry. They are tested in the big playoff battles, tough defensively minded team with the new ofensive spark given by Flip. And Saunders want's to make his own stand. That those Minnesotas 'mistakes' was not his fault and he want to prove it to McHale as for garnett.

Who you think are able to beat them?
Indy? Not anymore.
Miami? Wade can't handle all alone and Shaq is not diesel anymore. Will Jwill and walker the Pistons fans can sleep peacefully
LeBrons? RU kidding me?
Big Nets trio? Nope but the've got some weapon

That would be all the list.


Now question is if the spurs will be where Detroit will be in June? Yea thats a question

[himat]

i don't know if flip was a losing coach or if it was the wolves.

[Kori Ellis]

As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

But your starters play the same, if not more minutes, than they did last year when Pistons fans were worried that their starters played too many minutes.

[Obstructed_View]

Here's the bottom line: The Pistons don't have any real weaknesses aside from the fact that the Spurs will kill them when both teams are playing their best. The best the Pistons can hope is that the Spurs are still fighting injuries and struggling with apathy and chemistry issues. The Pistons have a nice built-in excuse that it was their coach that cost them the championship last year. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about it. Wow, they are beating all the teams they should have beaten last year when they took every third or fourth game off. I'm not impressed. I am glad that the Spurs are still able to fly under the radar and get themselves ready for the stretch run.

[FreshPrince22]

But your starters play the same, if not more minutes, than they did last year when Pistons fans were worried that their starters played too many minutes.

Pistons fans were worried about Tayshaun and Rip's minutes last year. Ben, Sheed, and Chauncey all played/play very reasonable minutes. And really, Prince is the only guy I worry about.

Minutes - (04/05) - (05/06)
Hamilton - 38.5 - 36.9 (-1.7)
Prince - 37.1 - 36.0 (-1.1)

More importantly, since Delfino has "come on", Tayshaun's minutes are WAY down. He's averaging 29.7mpg over the last 11 games.

And IMO, the only "fatigue" that the Pistons felt last year was due to playing the Heat to a 7 game series, while the Spurs were resting at home.

[SequSpur]

WGAF about Detroit.

Nets > Pistons.

Spurs in 4.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Pistons fans were worried about Tayshaun and Rip's minutes last year. Ben, Sheed, and Chauncey all played/play very reasonable minutes. And really, Prince is the only guy I worry about.

Minutes - (04/05) - (05/06)
Hamilton - 38.5 - 36.9 (-1.7)
Prince - 37.1 - 36.0 (-1.1)

More importantly, since Delfino has "come on", Tayshaun's minutes are WAY down. He's averaging 29.7mpg over the last 11 games.

And IMO, the only "fatigue" that the Pistons felt last year was due to playing the Heat to a 7 game series, while the Spurs were resting at home.


Duncan's played almost as many minutes as the Pistons starters. I'm not really buying the fatigue factor either.

[conqueso]

...The minutes issue is another thing is another issue that is extremely overblown. The Pistons don't have ANY players in the top 32 in MPG, and the only guy in the top 40 is Rip Hamilton. Who is probably the most physically fit player in the league. They also play LESS minutes than they did last year. Period. End of Topic.

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).



As for your "7 deep" comment. You're flat out wrong. The Pistons go 9 deep EVERY night, and that is with Lindsey Hunter being out the entire year so far. They are much deeper than last year. Delfino and Mo Evans have/will suprise a lot of people.

I don't consider Delfino and Arroyo part of the regular rotation since they both average less than 12 mpg and sometimes get DNP/CDs. For comparison, the Spurs have 10 players that average more minutes than either of those two, as opposed to 7 by the Pistons. But whatever, that's all just semantics. The point remains: the Pistons do lack depth relative to other championship contenders. I don't think think anyone looking at their roster 1-12 can rationally argue with that.


You can keep looking for weaknesses all you want. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much shit...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

WGAF about Detroit.

Nets > Pistons.

Spurs in 4.


This just jogged my memory...

Didn't we bet last year? Spurs were up 2-0, you had Spurs sweep, I had Pistons winning at least one game ... was it you?

[Tanya]

I am not worried about the coach at all. As long as we have big ben and Rasheed, there is no way they don't play defense. It was the right time that Joe. D fired LB and brought Flip in. We are absolutely a better team this year than the last year. I am not saying that Flip > LB. We thank LB for what he has taught this team. But it's time for him to go because he wouldn't make this team any better. When a team has the best starting five and have been playing together for so long, it's time to give them some freedom to run offense like Flip does. LB used to told the players :"You can't hit the 3's.. you have to play like this like that.." Come on, when you have Rip, Chauncey, Resheed and Prince, there is no way to stop them being more agressive offensively. Each of them has the ability to score 30 any given night. I think this team is in a very good shape this year and I hope to see more efforts Flip will put on the bench.

[FreshPrince22]

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).

Why can't people comprehend the fact that players aren't affected by their teammates minutes? Rip at 37 minutes per game is not feeling more fatigued because his team's 5th highest in minutes (Sheed), plays more than your average 5th highest. You cannot compare the Pistons starters to ANY other team, because NO team has 5 guys that contribute the same amount. Try this... Rate the Pistons starters from 1-5. Then take the 4th and 5th players and find me a team that is better at those spots. You won't find ANY. We don't have a Rasho or Nazr that don't deserve big minutes. If Big Ben was on the Spurs, you don't think he'd be playing big minutes?

And look at the minutes. The top 2 guys have seen a significant drop in minutes. Chauncey has played slightly more because Lindsey Hunter has been out the entire season. And Sheed has played more, because he was in better shape this year. He still plays less than Duncan, who is playing hurt. No Piston is in the top 32 in minutes played. End of story.




I don't consider Delfino and Arroyo part of the regular rotation since they both average less than 12 mpg and sometimes get DNP/CDs. For comparison, the Spurs have 10 players that average more minutes than either of those two, as opposed to 7 by the Pistons. But whatever, that's all just semantics. The point remains: the Pistons do lack depth relative to other championship contenders. I don't think think anyone looking at their roster 1-12 can rationally argue with that.

Arroyo hasn't had a single DNP-CD all year. He missed 1 game when he was suspended, that's it. And Delfino has worked his way into the rotation over the season. The only DNP's he has gotten lately is because he was sick. And I didn't know there was a "12 minutes per game rule" for rotation players :rolleyes. If the guy plays in every game he's available for, he's in the rotation, period.




As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much shit...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?

I don't see any Pistons fans "talking shit". I see Spurs fans searching for every possibly thing to discount the Pistons, and Pistons fans defending their team. You're the only one "talking shit".

[Obstructed_View]

LB used to told the players :"You can't hit the 3's.. you have to play like this like that.."
The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

04-05 mpg
Hamilton: 38.5
Billups: 35.8
Prince: 37.1
Sheed: 34.0
Ben: 36.1

05-06 mpg
Hamilton: 37.0 (-1.5)
Billups: 36.3 (+.5)
Prince: 35.9 (-1.2)
Sheed: 35.3 (+1.3)
Ben: 36.4 (+.3)

So I guess in the aggregate you are correct (-36 seconds per game), but emphasizing that they play less this year is just not really persuasive. They play just as much as they did last year, which is a lot. Of all the starting lineups in the league, they average the most minutes by far (180.9).


This isn't the first time a solid starting five has played that many minutes...

1985 Boston Celtics(IMO the best starting 5 ever)

Bird: 39.5
McHale: 33.6
Parish: 36.1
DJ: 37.2
Ainge: 34.2

[SequSpur]

This just jogged my memory...

Didn't we bet last year? Spurs were up 2-0, you had Spurs sweep, I had Pistons winning at least one game ... was it you?
\

:lol

[FreshPrince22]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

They lost because they couldn't defend. It had nothing to do with offense. And the Pistons don't take that many threes. They're 12th in the league in 3 point attempts per game.

And the fact is, 3 pointers decided the Finals last year. Spurs could hit them, and the Pistons couldn't. It's only fitting that the biggest shot of the series was a three.

[Kori Ellis]

Why can't people comprehend the fact that players aren't affected by their teammates minutes? Rip at 37 minutes per game is not feeling more fatigued because his team's 5th highest in minutes (Sheed), plays more than your average 5th highest. You cannot compare the Pistons starters to ANY other team, because NO team has 5 guys that contribute the same amount. Try this... Rate the Pistons starters from 1-5. Then take the 4th and 5th players and find me a team that is better at those spots. You won't find ANY. We don't have a Rasho or Nazr that don't deserve big minutes. If Big Ben was on the Spurs, you don't think he'd be playing big minutes?

And look at the minutes. The top 2 guys have seen a significant drop in minutes. Chauncey has played slightly more because Lindsey Hunter has been out the entire season. And Sheed has played more, because he was in better shape this year. He still plays less than Duncan, who is playing hurt. No Piston is in the top 32 in minutes played. End of story.

Blahblah.

Okay, then why were Pistons fans bitching last season that the starters were playing too many minutes and that's why they were fatigued in the postseason?? This season it's the same amount of minutes (almost). Rip playing 1 minute less isn't a significant decrease.

Spurs fans bring up minutes because last season in the postseason, Pistons fans were all talking about how the Pistons were getting fatigued because of the amount of minutes the starters were playing all season long.

Spurs fans are pointing it out now because this year it's the same situation.

Get it?

Pistons fans are now trying to say that it's okay that the Pistons starters play this amount of minutes because they are "easier" minutes. Pistons fans point out that the Pistons have a high differential so they don't have to work so hard on the court. Now you are pointing out that the Pistons starters are all equal and that means they don't have to work so hard on the court.

WTF are you talking about? Your players should be giving a 100 percent no matter who's on the court and no matter what the score is. There's not "easier" minutes.

[SequSpur]

I'm calling a Spurs sweep right now. If you don't like it then meet me at Military and Zarzamora.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I'm calling a Spurs sweep right now. If you don't like it then meet me at Military and Zarzamora.


Double or nothing? :lol

[FreshPrince22]

Blahblah.

Okay, then why were Pistons fans bitching last season that the starters were playing too many minutes and that's why they were fatigued in the postseason?? This season it's the same amount of minutes (almost). Rip playing 1 minute less isn't a significant decrease.

Spurs fans bring up minutes because last season in the postseason, Pistons fans were all talking about how the Pistons were getting fatigued because of the amount of minutes the starters were playing all season long.

Spurs fans are pointing it out now because this year it's the same situation.

Get it?

If 1 minute isn't significant then when aren't you calling for Pop's head for playing Duncan "1 minute" less than Rip?? On an injury no less. Get it?

And I wasn't worried about it last year, either. Tayshaun was the only guy that played too many, and those minutes are down. In the end, it didn't even effect him. His ankle injury in the playoffs is what slowed him down, not regular season minutes.

[Kori Ellis]

If 1 minute isn't significant then when aren't you calling for Pop's head for playing Duncan "1 minute" less than Rip?? On an injury no less. Get it?

What the fuck are you talking about?

[Kori Ellis]

I still don't think you are understanding why Spurs fans are bringing up minutes. Last season, it was the Pistons fans favorite excuse -- The Pistons are fatigued because the starters play so many minutes. This season, the starters play the same amount of minutes and Pistons fans say that fatigue isn't a factor.

:wtf

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I still don't think you are understanding why Spurs fans are bringing up minutes. Last season, it was the Pistons fans favorite excuse -- The Pistons are fatigued because the starters play so many minutes. This season, the starters play the same amount of minutes and Pistons fans say that fatigue isn't a factor.

:wtf

During the Finals? I don't remember that...

It was the officiating...

:spin

[Kori Ellis]

During the Finals? I don't remember that...

It was the officiating...

:spin

:)

[Obstructed_View]

They lost because they couldn't defend. It had nothing to do with offense. And the Pistons don't take that many threes. They're 12th in the league in 3 point attempts per game.

And the fact is, 3 pointers decided the Finals last year. Spurs could hit them, and the Pistons couldn't. It's only fitting that the biggest shot of the series was a three.

The Suns didn't suddenly stop playing defense. They won games because of their scoring, and the three was their weapon. The Spurs shut that down and the wheels fell off, in spite of Amare's great numbers.

Here's where you made my argument for me: The Pistons couldn't hit threes because they had a hand in their face, just like the Suns did in the series before that. The Pistons may be 12th in attempts, but they lead the league in percentage. That will go down against the Spurs. My point is that Larry Brown may prove to be right after all.

[FreshPrince22]

I'll reply to your edit:


Pistons fans are now trying to say that it's okay that the Pistons starters play this amount of minutes because they are "easier" minutes. Pistons fans point out that the Pistons have a high differential so they don't have to work so hard on the court. Now you are pointing out that the Pistons starters are all equal and that means they don't have to work so hard on the court.


Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said the starters are all equal, and that is the REASON they play similar minutes. No team has a 4th and 5th player as good as the Pistons. That is a fact. If these players were split onto their own seperate teams, they would play at least as much as they do now, and no one would say a damn thing because, individually, none of them play an extreme amount of minutes.



WTF are you talking about? Your players should be giving a 100 percent no matter who's on the court and no matter what the score is. There's not "easier" minutes.

Sure thing :rolleyes. I'm sure everyone goes full-boar when it's a 15-20 point game, or you're playing the Hawks.

[GO SPurs Go]

I'm sure this has been cursorily discussed in a dozen different threads, but I thought maybe if there's any interest we could focus on it here. Here's my question:

How will Flip's coaching affect the Pistons in the playoffs?

We all know what a wonderful job Flip has been doing this year with the Pistons. He has "taken the Larry Brown shackles off their offense," as ESPN repeats ad nauseum. And despite everyone's expectations, they have maintained the defensive intensity they had under LB. However, there is another difference between the two coaches. Brown was a proven winner at both the college level and in the NBA Playoffs. Flip has not been a proven winner in the playoffs. So I think the question just kinda naturally comes up: will Flip's past postseason failures make a difference?

I guess there are two schools of thought on this issue. One is that the fact that Flip is not a very good coach in the postseason will not affect Detroit; the entire team has tasted playoff success, the boneheaded calls that their coach is destined to make at the end of games won't disrupt their focus, and his air of failure won't rub off on his team. The other is that Flip will fail again; he's coached great teams with superstars in the past and gotten his ass whipped over and over again, and also lacks the experience and instinct needed to perform at a high level in pressure-packed NBA Finals situations.

I don't really know how I would answer this question, which is why I appeal to the San Antonio and Detroit fans on SpursTalk. I can see both arguments, and one doesn't stand out to me as being better than the other. So I've compiled some relevant stats about Flip in the past, and maybe they'll help us out.

Flip's coaching career:
Year Reg. Season Post Season Lost to
95-96: 20-42 (.323)
96-97: 40-42 (.488) 0-3 (.000) Rockets - 1st
97-98: 45-39 (.536) 2-3 (.400) Sonics - 1st
98-99: 25-25 (.500) 1-3 (.250) Spurs* - 1st
99-00: 50-32 (.610) 1-3 (.250) Blazers - 1st
00-01: 47-35 (.573) 1-3 (.250) Spurs - 1st
01-02: 50-32 (.610) 0-3 (.000) Mavs - 1st
02-03: 51-31 (.622) 2-4 (.500) Lakers - 1st
03-04: 58-24 (.707) 10-8 (.556) Lakers - WCF
04-05: 25-26 (.490)
Totals 411-328 (.556) 17-30 (.362) 2-8
* - Loss to eventual NBA Champion

As far as the coaches he's faced in the Post Season:
Rudy T: 0-1
George Karl: 0-1
Pop: 0-2
Mike Dunleavy: 0-1
Don Nelson: 0-1
Phil: 0-2
Rick Adelman: 1-0
Jeff Bzdelik: 1-0

A little history:
Flip took over the T-Wolves 20 games into the 95-96 season, KG's rookie year...that team also featured Rider, Laettner, Gugliotta, and Sam Mitchell, but failed to make the playoffs...96-97 team drafted Stephon Marubury (he averaged 15.8 ppg and 7.8 apg)...KG and Gugliotta were All-Stars...swept by Rockets (with Dream, Barkley and Clyde)...forced to trade Marbury and not resign Gugliotta in 98-99 because of the huge contract McHale gave KG (6 years, $126 million)...Terrell Brandon took over for Marbury and averaged 14.2 ppg and 9.8 apg...lost to eventual NBA Champion Spurs in the first round, but were one of only two teams to win a game against the Spurs in the playoffs that year...drafted Wally in 99-00...forfeited 5 drafts picks and fined $3.5 million in 00-01 for shady dealings with Joe Smith...swept by Dallas in 01-02...KG finishes second in MVP voting in 02-03 and play the Lakers tough, losing in 6 games...sign Sprewell and Cassell in 03-04 and KG is MVP...once again lose in 6 to the Lakers (with Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Phil) after advancing past the first round of the playoffs for the first time in seven post season appearances...Spree and Sam turned out to be whiny little bitches in 04-05, and Flip was fired after 51 games.

So pretending to be a Flip apologist for a second, he had to deal with ill-timed injuries, primadonna role players, and NBA sanctions during his tenure with T-Wolves, so it should be no surprise that he couldn't win in the playoffs. On the other side of the aisle, he coached KG (who some might argue is the best power forward of all time) and had oodles of talent on most of the teams he went down in flames with in the post season.

This year, he inherited a pre-built team that had already been trained in how to play the type of defense that Flip couldn't ever seem to coax out of any of his T-Wolves teams. He didn't fuck around with a good thing and install all of those crazy zones he used frequently in Minnesota, but has instead "opened up the offense" by giving Rip and Chauncey and Sheed green lights to play with the creativity that would have made Larry Brown's bladder burst. (I mean seriously, what do you think would have happened if Rasheed had launched up 9 three-pointers and made only 1 under LB's watch? Would Larry Brown's head have exploded like that guy in the Chappelle Show skit about the black white supremicist? This is an honest question.) As a result, the Pistons are clearly the finest team in the NBA so far this season, and there are still people out there who talk seriously about 70 wins.

A couple of things to consider though. Will the Pistons' defense remain as lethal as it has been? In other words, is their defensive success this year attributable more to momentum and the residual lingerings of LB's coaching, or is it ingrained in the players, a self-perpetuating training that needs no reinforcement? How will Flip keep the Pistons going if injury strikes one of those high-30's mpg starters on a team with what really amounts to a 7-man rotation and wants for depth? What will happen when Flip and his assistants face a superior coaching staff in a 7 game series? Comments?
Well said my dog

[Kori Ellis]

No team has a 4th and 5th player as good as the Pistons. That is a fact.

That's your opinion.

I'll give you the 5th player, but not the 4th.

[GO SPurs Go]

What the fuck are you talking about?
Hey do you mind telling me what kind of crack you're on cause I've never seen such a stupid post. Stop wasting my eyesight, I have better things to look at

[Kori Ellis]

I'm sure everyone goes full-boar when it's a 15-20 point game, or you're playing the Hawks.

Umm.. that's when your 8th-12th men should be on the floor and yes, they should be trying their hardest trying to earn minutes. There's no plays off in basketball. It's not my fault the Pistons play their starters in blowouts:)

[GO SPurs Go]

Oops sorry Kori that was to the guy before you, I quoted the wrong message? What was he talking about anyways?

[SequSpur]

Who Gives a Shit?

The Spurs won it. They blew the Pistons out in Game 1 and 2. Got blown in Game 3 and 4.

Horry won Game 5. Pistons kicked ass in Game 6.

Pistons kicked ass for 46 minutes in Game 7. Spurs kicked ass in the 47th and 48th minute.

Spurs won. It was a very good final series. Hopefully it will happen again, but I am guessing that Hollywood Parker is going to destroy your front court and you all will be crying again.

Spurs in 4.

[FreshPrince22]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Is someone using your computer? I usually thought you were a decent poster on this board.

You said "1 minute isn't significant" when talking about Rip's minutes being down from last season. I replied with the fact the Duncan (who is injured) is playing 1 "insignificant" minute less than Rip this season. Is it really that hard to understand?

[Kori Ellis]

Is someone using your computer? I usually thought you were a decent poster on this board.

You said "1 minute isn't significant" when talking about Rip's minutes being down from last season. I replied with the fact the Duncan (who is injured) is playing 1 "insignificant" minute less than Rip this season. Is it really that hard to understand?

Re-read your sentence. Did you mistype? Because as is, it makes no sense.

[Kori Ellis]

Read it to yourself:


If 1 minute isn't significant then when aren't you calling for Pop's head for playing Duncan "1 minute" less than Rip?? On an injury no less. Get it?

I had no idea what you meant by "when aren't you calling for Pop's head" and its relevance to the conversation.

[conqueso]

Why can't people comprehend the fact that players aren't affected by their teammates minutes? Rip at 37 minutes per game is not feeling more fatigued because his team's 5th highest in minutes (Sheed), plays more than your average 5th highest. You cannot compare the Pistons starters to ANY other team, because NO team has 5 guys that contribute the same amount. Try this... Rate the Pistons starters from 1-5. Then take the 4th and 5th players and find me a team that is better at those spots. You won't find ANY. We don't have a Rasho or Nazr that don't deserve big minutes. If Big Ben was on the Spurs, you don't think he'd be playing big minutes?

I think you missed the point.

I'm not claiming that they play MORE minutes than last year. Or that Rip feels different when Sheed plays fewer minutes or whatever. In fact, I'm not really claiming anything, just asking pointed questions. But regardless, the big thing about minutes is that they reflect how important a starter is to the overall success of the team. For example, if Rip goes down, someone else (or elses) will have to make up for those minutes. Since the other starters already play so many minutes, they won't be able to take over as many of those missing 37. The bench will have to play much more than they're accustomed to, and it will impact the team more than a deeper team. In other words, for example, if Manu goes down, the Spurs are still two deep at SG, but if Rip goes down, it will be much harder for the Pistons to fill the bigger hole in overall minutes.

It's true that the Pistons starters are clearly the best group in the league. But the fact that they play so many minutes (relative to the rest of the league) and that they only play 7 players more than one-quarter's worth of basketball per night, means that an injury to any member of their starting line-up will hurt them more than another team, say the Spurs for instance.

I'm not "searching for any possible way to discount the Pistons"...I'm just pointing out facts that make a difference, facts that to the extent they applied last year, probably cost the Pistons the title.

End of story.

[Obstructed_View]

If the Pistons don't have bench players to play in blowouts or against weak teams, they are doomed anyway. There's the answer about the new coach.

[FreshPrince22]

Read it to yourself:



I had no idea what you meant by "when aren't you calling for Pop's head" and its relevance to the conversation.

OK, I typed "when" instead of "why". Shoot me. It's still easy to use logic to realize what I was trying to say.

[Kori Ellis]

OK, I typed "when" instead of "why". Shoot me. It's still easy to use logic to realize what I was trying to say.

Okay to answer the why .. because Duncan's injury isn't going to change by playing 25 minutes or 35 minutes. It will only heal over a matter of months. And I'm not willing to want him to sit out a few months and sacrifice the season. So playing him 33 or 35 mpg doesn't make a difference to me.

[FreshPrince22]

Umm.. that's when your 8th-12th men should be on the floor and yes, they should be trying their hardest trying to earn minutes. There's no plays off in basketball. It's not my fault the Pistons play their starters in blowouts:)

You really think there isn't a difference in effort when a team plays the Hawks (or any other crap team) than when they play a contender? You're being Naive if that is the case. The Spurs, in particular, are guilty of this.

And yes, when the Pistons push a lead up to about 15 points in the first halves of games, they usually still play in the 2nd half. Every team does. I've seen plenty of times where the Spurs are up 15-20, and Tony, Bowen, or Tim are still in the game. If you think a 15 point lead in the 2nd quarter is time to empty the bench and bring on garbage time for the rest of the game, you just don't think like a coach.

[FreshPrince22]

Okay to answer the why .. because Duncan's injury isn't going to change by playing 25 minutes or 35 minutes. It will only heal over a matter of months. And I'm not willing to want him to sit out a few months and sacrifice the season. So playing him 33 or 35 mpg doesn't make a difference to me.

The injury is just a side note. The fact is, injured or not, he only plays 1 less minute than the leader in MPG for the Pistons (and that's endless energy Rip we're talking about). Is he super-human in that he isn't affected by minutes or something? Or is it just the Pistons that are affected by minutes?

[thispego]

You really think there isn't a difference in effort when a team plays the Hawks (or any other crap team) than when they play a contender? You're being Naive if that is the case. :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes The Spurs, in particular, are guilty of this.

And yes, when the Pistons push a lead up to about 15 points in the first halves of games, they usually still play in the 2nd half. Every team does. I've seen plenty of times where the Spurs are up 15-20, and Tony, Bowen, or Tim are still in the game. If you think a 15 point lead in the 2nd quarter is time to empty the bench and bring on garbage time for the rest of the game, you just don't think like a coach.
i think you are the one who is naiive.. have you ever played a game of basketball in your life?? full court?
as long as the other team is playing some form of defense it's going to take effort, whether it be the hawks or the spurs

[Kori Ellis]

You really think there isn't a difference in effort when a team plays the Hawks (or any other crap team) than when they play a contender? You're being Naive if that is the case. The Spurs, in particular, are guilty of this.



The point of my post is that Pistons fans last year were saying that their team was fatigued because of the amount of minutes they were playing. This season, they are playing the same minutes and Pistons fans are saying it's fine because they are playing "easier" minutes.

Of course sometimes teams play down to the level of their competition. But the fact still remains that if they are on the court, they are physically exerting themselves for that amount of time. If Pistons fans are concerned that their starters are playing too many minutes, then they need to find ways to rest them more on the bench. As was pointed out earlier, they are resting Prince more in recent weeks. That's how they will combat fatigue late in the postseason.

By the way, I don't care if the Pistons' starters play 48 mpg or 10 mpg. I only care that the Spurs get ready for the playoffs -- they can't control the Pistons. I just find it funny that Pistons fans cried fatigue because of the minutes of the starters last season .. and now they think it's fine.


If you think a 15 point lead in the 2nd quarter is time to empty the bench and bring on garbage time for the rest of the game, you just don't think like a coach.

Quite an exaggeration of what I said. You say that your starters take it easy when they are up by 15 (I was assuming we were talking about late in games). I said that's the time when you could be getting them actual bench rest.

[FreshPrince22]

i think you are the one who is naiive.. have you ever played a game of basketball in your life?? full court?
as long as the other team is playing some form of defense it's going to take effort, whether it be the hawks or the spurs

When did I say it didn't take any effort? I said there is a big difference in effort, whether the other team is or the Spurs. Trust me, the Pistons use up a lot more energy diving for loose balls, going after rebounds, challenging shots on D, etc when they play the Spurs than they do against bad teams.

[Kori Ellis]

The injury is just a side note. The fact is, injured or not, he only plays 1 less minute than the leader in MPG for the Pistons (and that's endless energy Rip we're talking about). Is he super-human in that he isn't affected by minutes or something? Or is it just the Pistons that are affected by minutes?

You still aren't getting it. I'm not the one saying the Pistons are playing too many minutes. PISTONS FANS were saying last year that their minutes were what caused them fatigue in the postseason.

[thispego]

When did I say it didn't take any effort? I said there is a big difference in effort, whether the other team is or the Spurs. Trust me, the Pistons use up a lot more energy diving for loose balls, going after rebounds, challenging shots on D, etc when they play the Spurs than they do against bad teams.
Really? do you play for the pistons? do you know them personally?
you are just plain stupid if you think it takes more energy and effort to "dive for loose balls, go after rebounds, challenge shots on D, etc" against the Spurs than it does to do the same thing against the hawks, bobcats, whatever.

It's all the same game. these are all nba players.

[FreshPrince22]

The point of my post is that Pistons fans last year were saying that their team was fatigued because of the amount of minutes they were playing. This season, they are playing the same minutes and Pistons fans are saying it's fine because they are playing "easier" minutes.

Of course sometimes teams play down to the level of their competition. But the fact still remains that if they are on the court, they are physically exerting themselves for that amount of time. If Pistons fans are concerned that their starters are playing too many minutes, then they need to find ways to rest them more on the bench. As was pointed out earlier, they are resting Prince more in recent weeks. That's how they will combat fatigue late in the postseason.

By the way, I don't care if the Pistons' starters play 48 mpg or 10 mpg. I only care that the Spurs get ready for the playoffs -- they can't control the Pistons. I just find it funny that Pistons fans cried fatigue because of the minutes of the starters last season .. and now they think it's fine.

As I said before, the only fatigue that I think hurt them last year was having to play a rested Spurs team after fighting through a grueling 7 game series against the Heat (notably Ben guarding Shaq for 7 games, and Tayshaun trying to keep up with Wade for 7 games. Those 2 were the only guys that looked fatigued at all, IMO). The regular season was not a factor. This year, the minutes are even more balanced, and will be a non-factor yet again.

Quite an exaggeration of what I said. You say that your starters take it easy when they are up by 15 (I was assuming we were talking about late in games). I said that's the time when you could be getting them actual bench rest.

Well you can't assume that, because the Pistons get big leads regularly in the first halves of games. That's when they go on cruise control. If it's a 15 point game late in the game, the bench is usually in. This is when Darko is unleashed to the wild :lol

[sprrs]

Playing less minutes on all clyinders > playing more half-assed minutes

That's probably the only thing I see that could hinder the Pistons, last year they pretty much saved energy by coasting through the season.

[FreshPrince22]

You still aren't getting it. I'm not the one saying the Pistons are playing too many minutes. PISTONS FANS were saying last year that their minutes were what caused them fatigue in the postseason.

You still aren't getting it. I'm not one of those fans. I could care less what other people say. I can't say I agree with what every other Piston fan says.

[FreshPrince22]

Really? do you play for the pistons? do you know them personally?
No, but I have eyes. If you can't see it, you're blind. You see it from every team in the league every single year.



you are just plain stupid if you think it takes more energy and effort to "dive for loose balls, go after rebounds, challenge shots on D, etc" against the Spurs than it does to do the same thing against the hawks, bobcats, whatever.

It's all the same game. these are all nba players.

The point is, when they're playing shitty teams the do a whole lot less of those "effort" things. They don't play as hard on D, they don't dive for loose balls, etc. You're twisting my words.

[Kori Ellis]

You still aren't getting it. I'm not one of those fans. I could care less what other people say. I can't say I agree with what every other Piston fan says.

Well then you shouldn't be answering the posts from Spurs fans (like me) who are talking about what the Pistons fans said last year.

Because apparently we aren't talking to you. :)

[thispego]

No, but I have eyes. If you can't see it, you're blind. You see it from every team in the league every single year.



The point is, when they're playing shitty teams the do a whole lot less of those "effort" things. They don't play as hard on D, they don't dive for loose balls, etc. You're twisting my words.
i'm trying to untwist them
because your logic doesnt make any sense....even if what you say is true( :lol ), how many "shitty" teams do they play in a season, and how many times? what qualifies a team as "shitty?" is there a threshhold at which the pistons only give half effort, quarter effort, full effort??

[FreshPrince22]

i'm trying to untwist them
because your logic doesnt make any sense....even if what you say is true( :lol ), how many "shitty" teams do they play in a season, and how many times? what qualifies a team as "shitty?" is there a threshhold at which the pistons only give half effort, quarter effort, full effort??

There isn't exactly a formula for it, but there are certain teams that they "Get up" for, and certain teams that they just want to get through.

Hawks, Bobcats, Blazers, Knicks, Raptors, Celtics, etc. All of those are "get through it" teams.

Spurs, Heat, Mavs, Suns, Grizz, etc are teams they "get up" for. Everyone else is in the middle.

No matter what you want to think, teams most definately vary in their level of intensity depending on the competition.

[Brutalis]

During the Finals? I don't remember that...

It was the officiating...

:spin
:lol

[Brutalis]

There isn't exactly a formula for it, but there are certain teams that they "Get up" for, and certain teams that they just want to get through.

Hawks, Bobcats, Blazers, Knicks, Raptors, Celtics, etc. All of those are "get through it" teams.

Spurs, Heat, Mavs, Suns, Grizz, etc are teams they "get up" for. Everyone else is in the middle.

No matter what you want to think, teams most definately vary in their level of intensity depending on the competition.
Well, if you're new to the NBA you wouldn't know every team 'gets up' for the good teams they play.

[conqueso]

This bitching back and forth between Spurs and Pistons fans is exaclty why I did not want to make this post. We have spent nearly 2 pages talking about whether or not the Pistons starters are playing too many minutes, who said what about whom, and then making personal jabs. I don't care about any of that shit. I want to know what you people think about Flip, what you think is going to happen when he tells Rasheed to guard Duncan straight up in the last 5 minutes of a close game, what his players are going to say when he draws up a last-second play for Prince to take a contested three from 24 feet with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I want to know if you think that Flip's failures and tendencies to fuck shit up in the postseason are going to affect this Pistons team in the playoffs. Why or why not. That's it.

Shut up about the minutes already. You people bickering makes me not want to post in this forum any more.

[Kori Ellis]

This bitching back and forth between Spurs and Pistons fans is exaclty why I did not want to make this post. We have spent nearly 2 pages talking about whether or not the Pistons starters are playing too many minutes, who said what about whom, and then making personal jabs. I don't care about any of that shit. I want to know what you people think about Flip, what you think is going to happen when he tells Rasheed to guard Duncan straight up in the last 5 minutes of a close game, what his players are going to say when he draws up a last-second play for Prince to take a contested three from 24 feet with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I want to know if you think that Flip's failures and tendencies to fuck shit up in the postseason are going to affect this Pistons team in the playoffs. Why or why not. That's it.

Shut up about the minutes already. You people bickering makes me not want to post in this forum any more.

It's called discussion. That's what people do.

As for your questions regarding Flip. I think the Pistons players are mature enough and have been together long enough that Flip isn't going to be a huge factor (negatively) in the postseason. He obviously has their respect and he's done some good things for the offense, while their D hasn't suffered. That will likely continue.

[Brutalis]

What I think about flip?

Overrated. Of course Piston fans jump his dick cause they're winning. What fan wouldn't? The bottom line is, he don't know how to beat us. And if by some longshot the Pistons do beat us if we're in the finals, it's cause of their players, and their ability. Flip is a flipping joke.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

This bitching back and forth between Spurs and Pistons fans is exaclty why I did not want to make this post. We have spent nearly 2 pages talking about whether or not the Pistons starters are playing too many minutes, who said what about whom, and then making personal jabs. I don't care about any of that shit. I want to know what you people think about Flip, what you think is going to happen when he tells Rasheed to guard Duncan straight up in the last 5 minutes of a close game, what his players are going to say when he draws up a last-second play for Prince to take a contested three from 24 feet with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I want to know if you think that Flip's failures and tendencies to fuck shit up in the postseason are going to affect this Pistons team in the playoffs. Why or why not. That's it.

Shut up about the minutes already. You people bickering makes me not want to post in this forum any more.


That's funny. Like you expect people to stay on topic.

If you're expecting anything different I suggest you retire from posting right now.

At least people are writing in semi-coherent sentences in this thread. Consider yourself blessed.

[conqueso]

It's called discussion. That's what people do.

Pleassssssse, Kori, "discussion"? That's not discussion, that's pointless nit-picking and arguing. Now I know you were just defending the Spurs, and it was really FreshPrince that crossed the line by taking such offense to my original post in which I merely asked some questions without making any wild assertions or even providing my own answers, but really, I don't want people bitching back and forth about whether or not what they said made grammatical sense or if it was logical enough or whatever the fuck you wasted 2 pages on. That's not discussion, that's inane banter.

[Kori Ellis]

Whether you like reading it or not, the discussion was about the starters' minutes and (weak) bench. There was only a couple of bitching posts .. and that's because Prince made a post that no one understood what he was trying to say.

All and all, I don't think this thread was that bad. A lot of people don't have answers to your original question because Flip seems to have done some good things with the Pistons this season and only time will tell if he'll choke in the postseason. I hated him in Minny, but I don't think he will.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Pleassssssse, Kori, "discussion"? That's not discussion, that's pointless nit-picking and arguing. Now I know you were just defending the Spurs, and it was really FreshPrince that crossed the line by taking such offense to my original post in which I merely asked some questions without making any wild assertions or even providing my own answers, but really, I don't want people bitching back and forth about whether or not what they said made grammatical sense or if it was logical enough or whatever the fuck you wasted 2 pages on. That's not discussion, that's inane banter.

:lol

[FreshPrince22]

What I think about flip?

Overrated. Of course Piston fans jump his dick cause they're winning. What fan wouldn't? The bottom line is, he don't know how to beat us. And if by some longshot the Pistons do beat us if we're in the finals, it's cause of their players, and their ability. Flip is a flipping joke.

He's 2-0 with the Pistons. Both in blowout fashion. It's the regular season, but saying that makes you look like an idiot.

[FreshPrince22]

This bitching back and forth between Spurs and Pistons fans is exaclty why I did not want to make this post. We have spent nearly 2 pages talking about whether or not the Pistons starters are playing too many minutes, who said what about whom, and then making personal jabs. I don't care about any of that shit. I want to know what you people think about Flip, what you think is going to happen when he tells Rasheed to guard Duncan straight up in the last 5 minutes of a close game, what his players are going to say when he draws up a last-second play for Prince to take a contested three from 24 feet with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. I want to know if you think that Flip's failures and tendencies to fuck shit up in the postseason are going to affect this Pistons team in the playoffs. Why or why not. That's it.

Shut up about the minutes already. You people bickering makes me not want to post in this forum any more.

And you think that kind of idiotic post isn't going to start more bickering? You're just making up retarded shit that makes no sense.


what you think is going to happen when he tells Rasheed to guard Duncan straight up in the last 5 minutes of a close game

What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say Sheed can't guard Duncan one-on-one? If so, you need a history lesson, and I need to stop reading your posts.


what his players are going to say when he draws up a last-second play for Prince to take a contested three from 24 feet with 10 seconds left on the shot clock.

WTF???

All I can say about this "Flip is going to mess things up in the playoffs" crap is that Flip has made last coaching mistakes this entire season than Larry Brown made in game 7 of the finals last year alone. Larry gets all of this praise, yet he was constantly making assinine decisions with his rotation when it counted, and often times costing us the game (in some cases, the title). Flip has been as close to perfect as possible. I don't see how the playoffs are going to change anything. He is not going to become and idiot overnight. He will put the players in position to win, just like he has all year. The difference is that, this year, Flip has a title-tested team.

[Brutalis]

He's 2-0 with the Pistons. Both in blowout fashion. It's the regular season, but saying that makes you look like an idiot.
Keywords: Regular season

[Brutalis]

And you think that kind of idiotic post isn't going to start more bickering? You're just making up retarded shit that makes no sense.



What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say Sheed can't guard Duncan one-on-one? If so, you need a history lesson, and I need to stop reading your posts.



WTF???

He's saying Sheed can't guard Duncan when it counts. Oh say, last 5 mins of a finals game perhaps. :lol :lol :lol

[FreshPrince22]

He's saying Sheed can't guard Duncan when it counts. Oh say, last 5 mins of a finals game perhaps. :lol :lol :lol

You're right. That is laughable.

[Brutalis]

You're right. That is laughable.
It's hilarious because of the facts behind it. Blame the finals on Sheed dude. Leaving Horry wide open, letting Duncan toy with him in game 7 with 5 mins to go.

Poor, poor sheed. :lol :lol :lol

[FreshPrince22]

Keywords: Regular season

That's why I said them. The point still stands that the Pistons with Flip have beaten the Spurs 2 out of 2 times. And the Spurs are 0-2 against the Pistons with Flip. I'm not one to read too far into regular season games, but when you say "Flip doesn't know how to beat the Spurs.", I have to correct you. As of now, "Pop doesn't know how the beat Flip's Pistons" is a more accurate statement. Not one I would make, but it has more truth to it than yours.

[conqueso]

...Flip seems to have done some good things with the Pistons this season and only time will tell if he'll choke in the postseason. I hated him in Minny, but I don't think he will.

I agree, but I wonder what's different...I mean, obviously the Pistons play better team basketball than the Wolves ever did, but he wasn't able to win a playoff series with one of the greatest players ever for 7 years. But this year, with a new team playing in a new system, he is favored to win the NBA title and break all kinds of records along the way. How could there be such a drastic change from one team to another? How much can we attribute to Flip? To the players? Did his system just fit better with those players? Or is this yet again another example of the old adage that teams, not individual superstars, win titles? Inquiring minds want to know....

[FreshPrince22]

It's hilarious because of the facts behind it. Blame the finals on Sheed dude. Leaving Horry wide open, letting Duncan toy with him in game 7 with 5 mins to go.

Poor, poor sheed. :lol :lol :lol

Duncan had 3 points in the last 5 minutes of game 7. 1 for 3 FGs, and 1 FT. His only FG make was about a 20 footer. It's funny how your memory slips over time, and forgets that it was Tayshaun Prince on Duncan (LB's idiotic move) when Duncan went off. And it was the 3rd quarter.

[T Park]

but when you say "Flip doesn't know how to beat the Spurs.", I have to correct you. As of now, "Pop doesn't know how the beat Flip's Pistons" is a more accurate statement. Not one I would make, but it has more truth to it than yours


Picky grumpy sonofabitch isn't he?



Look at 99, 01, regular seasons where Flip coached very talented Timberwolves teams, that beat the Spurs in the regular season, but then turned to dimwits in the playoffs.

ESPECIALLY, 99.

[zeleni]

Flip has one horrible flaw: He likes to mess with chemistry.

I expect Pistons no to make to Finals. Why? East need only a gifted coach to analyze the games Pistons played. Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.
The chemistry around playoff needs to be stronger then ever. They will lose against LeBron or some other team that shake them up in 2 games.

Team was fed with "they do not respect us, and we respect only the Spurs" and after they get the best record and HCA, they would get sloppy. Flip cannot pull this team together, if they fell apart. Flip could not pull even a young team together when it counted, so players won't respect him. I'd say Pistons will not play in the NBA Finals.

[Kori Ellis]

I agree, but I wonder what's different...I mean, obviously the Pistons play better team basketball than the Wolves ever did, but he wasn't able to win a playoff series with one of the greatest players ever for 7 years. But this year, with a new team playing in a new system, he is favored to win the NBA title and break all kinds of records along the way. How could there be such a drastic change from one team to another? How much can we attribute to Flip? To the players? Did his system just fit better with those players? Or is this yet again another example of the old adage that teams, not individual superstars, win titles? Inquiring minds want to know....


Yeah, it's incredibly difficult to figure out. Was it Garnett's fault that they couldn't get out of the first round for so long? Or was Flip a big part of that? People always argued that KG didn't have a good supporting cast, but several years he did. So who choked?

I think that the best thing that Flip has done in Detroit is not try to really overhaul the whole team concept. They are still built on D first and he's just added some variety and freedom (and thus production) to their O.

They are a very formidable opponent.

I still take Spurs in 7.

[FreshPrince22]

Flip has one horrible flaw: He likes to mess with chemistry.

I expect Pistons no to make to Finals. Why? East need only a gifted coach to analyze the games Pistons played. Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.
The chemistry around playoff needs to be stronger then ever. They will lose against LeBron or some other team that shake them up in 2 games.


Please explain.

[T Park]

Flip liked to screw with chemistry in Minny.


Joe Smith and KG was a good front line, then hed switch up and put Dean Garrett in to try and "muscle" teams around.


I also think in a playoff series, adjustments were Flip's problem.

We will see how he does this year.


I dont think Garnett flopped in 99, he was too young and his supporting cast outside of Brandon was Anthony Peeler, Joe Smith, Sam Mitchell.

No big suprise there.


I think Pistons will go to the Finals, we will see how he does.

He might be pulling on the old collar and adjusting his head, how he likes to do in tough situations.

[5ToolMan]

Props on a detailed post with solid analysis.

As for Flip, he is probally a better coach than those who roast him for so many first round exits, and/or failure to even make the playoffs with some solid talent last year.

Simply put, the Wolves were never strong enough of a team, nor expected to make it out of the first round in any year but 2004. That year, the only year they ever played any round with home court advantage, they lost to a pretty solid Laker squad who had the core of their Three Peat Championship plus the addition of Malone and Payton.

Unless you want to blame Flip for not developing a stronger team during the regular season, you must give him a partial pass, as except for once, he only lost to teams proven to be stronger over an entire season.

As for the Pistons, I do see one potential problem come playoff time. Although I am not a big stat guy, they appear to be more "dependant" on jumpshooting and fast breaks than in years past. In the playoffs, after a long season and when defensive intensity hits another level, it is much harder to get easy looks from the perimeter, unless you can free shooters by applying pressure from the inside. And fast breaks are always great, but they become much more rare as playoff time rolls around.

Granted, Rasheed and McDyes are solid in the post, and Billips and Prince are very effective posting in some matchups. But as a team, it appears they have developed a greater desire to just launch bombs, rather than work in the blocks.

This habit, set free by Flips desire to have greater offensive flow, could back fire if not adjusted to once defensive pressure heats up, and jump shooters legs tire.

[FreshPrince22]

Flip liked to screw with chemistry in Minny.


OK, but still. The person wrote:


Flip has toyed withthe starting 5 more than LB ever would.

That's the comment I was most interested in.

[conqueso]

And you think that kind of idiotic post isn't going to start more bickering? You're just making up retarded shit that makes no sense.

You really need to lay off the personally debassing comments. I don't abide by them. I'm obviously not "making up retarded shit that makes no sense." If you look at any one of my posts, you will find it to be well researched and well written, and most of my posts are also well reasoned. I'll let this one go, but you should know that you don't want to fuck with me by calling me names or being intentionally offensive when you feel threatened by strong argument. I will bring the heat. Just ask implacable_44:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29291&page=1&pp=26



What is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say Sheed can't guard Duncan one-on-one? If so, you need a history lesson, and I need to stop reading your posts.

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.


All I can say about this "Flip is going to mess things up in the playoffs" crap is that Flip has made last [sic] coaching mistakes this entire season than Larry Brown made in game 7 of the finals last year alone. Larry gets all of this praise, yet he was constantly making assinine decisions with his rotation when it counted, and often times costing us the game (in some cases, the title). Flip has been as close to perfect as possible. I don't see how the playoffs are going to change anything. He is not going to become and idiot overnight. He will put the players in position to win, just like he has all year. The difference is that, this year, Flip has a title-tested team.

I hear your point, but "becoming an idiot overnight" happens ALL THE TIME in the playoffs. I mean, there are so many examples that it's almost hard to make a list, but the ones that come to mind immediately are Webber, Malone, George Karl, Dirk, Kenyon Martin, Kevin Garnett, Tracy McGrady, etc. etc. etc. Flip has to fall in that category just based on his track record. I guess the big x-factor for me is that this year you're combining an amazingly wonderful playoff team with a terribly awful playoff coach. The last two years was different, and I'm wondering if that makes this year's team a better playoff team or a worse playoff team.

[Tanya]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

So what's your point? My point was the way the pistons playing will have higher chance to beat the Spurs than they used to do under LB. I am not just talking about 3-pointers. I am talking about the more balanced offense and defense combination.

You know what, I didn't say anything like the pistons is better than the spurs. I said "This year's pistons are better than last year's pistons." Don't just quote one sentence from my post and think that I am saying pistons>spurs. I am tired of explaining myself.

[FreshPrince22]

As for the Pistons, I do see one potential problem come playoff time. Although I am not a big stat guy, they appear to be more "dependant" on jumpshooting and fast breaks than in years past. In the playoffs, after a long season and when defensive intensity hits another level, it is much harder to get easy looks from the perimeter, unless you can free shooters by applying pressure from the inside. And fast breaks are always great, but they become much more rare as playoff time rolls around.

Granted, Rasheed and McDyes are solid in the post, and Billips and Prince are very effective posting in some matchups. But as a team, it appears they have developed a greater desire to just launch bombs, rather than work in the blocks.

This habit, set free by Flips desire to have greater offensive flow, could back fire if not adjusted to once defensive pressure heats up, and jump shooters legs tire.

This Pistons have been a jumpshooting team for the last 4-5 years. They won a title as a jumpshooting team. You make it sound like Rasheed used to work in the post when LB was here. In reality, he did even less there when Larry was around. As has been proven in the Spurs/Pistons matchups this year, he is willing to post up frequently in certain situations (usually against elite PFs like Duncan, KG, JO).

Also, it is a little known fact the Pistons don't "fastbreak" all that much. They actually have the 2nd slowest tempo of any team in the league. The half-court offense is what has taken huge strides this year.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.

Big problems? That's a bit of an exaggeration.


But in the 12 games (including last year's Finals) that he's played Detroit since the Pistons acquired Rasheed Wallace, Duncan is shooting 42 percent (82 of 194).

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/basketball/13627359.htm?source=rss&channel=philly_basketball

[FreshPrince22]

Yes, Sheed does have big problems with Duncan one-on-one. There have been times when he's performed well, but remember the third and fourth quarters of game 5 when Sheed played the majority of the defense on Duncan. History lesson? Who has 3 Finals MVPs? 2 Regular Season MVPs? An All-Star MVP? Sheed can do well against Duncan, but it's certainly not on defense.


You're just flat out wrong. Sheed gives Duncan fits on both ends. Tim has admitted this himself. And it is not some hidden secret around the league. Every time these two teams face-off it's a topic of discussion. Sheed is the one guy in the league that you can throw on Duncan one-on-one and not worry about him going off.

And I'm sorry, but what do Duncan's individual awards have to do with Sheed? Don't fool yourself into thinking that just because Duncan has individual accolades means he'll dominate Rasheed offensively. Even if you watch Spurs/Pistons games with your homer goggles on you should see that that isn't the case. Sheed gives Timmy hell defensively.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I think he threw in the All-Star MVP for emphasis...

:lol

[5ToolMan]

So what's your point? My point was the way the pistons playing will have higher chance to beat the Spurs than they used to do under LB. I am not just talking about 3-pointers. I am talking about the more balanced offense and defense combination.

You know what, I didn't say anything like the pistons is better than the spurs. I said "This year's pistons are better than last year's pistons." Don't just quote one sentence from my post and think that I am saying pistons>spurs. I am tired of explaining myself.

Both your points remain to be seen.

The Pistons new style and commitment to winning regular season games, certainly has translated into a better regular season record at this point, for this year. But nothing else has been proven.

The facts are, every team in the league had major adjustments from changes in personel and injury, compared to the Pistons. The Pistons only change was to Flip. Credit him for not screwing up a great team, at least not yet. Flip's opening up the offense AND the Pistons having few other adjustments to make, has helped in the regular season.

The playoffs will write their own story. It appears Pop and a few Spurs know a little something about develolping a team for that great time of year for NBA Fans.

[Tanya]

What I think about flip?

Overrated. Of course Piston fans jump his dick cause they're winning. What fan wouldn't? The bottom line is, he don't know how to beat us. And if by some longshot the Pistons do beat us if we're in the finals, it's cause of their players, and their ability. Flip is a flipping joke.

Flip doesn't know how to beat you. But I don't think Pop has much confidence to have a way to beat us too. Flip is not a great coach as LB. But he is an offense genius. And that's why Joe D hired him. That's what LB couldn't bring us.

The pistons lost to the spurs last year, so was the reason Pop is a better coach than LB?

[5ToolMan]

This Pistons have been a jumpshooting team for the last 4-5 years. They won a title as a jumpshooting team. You make it sound like Rasheed used to work in the post when LB was here. In reality, he did even less there when Larry was around. As has been proven in the Spurs/Pistons matchups this year, he is willing to post up frequently in certain situations (usually against elite PFs like Duncan, KG, JO).

Also, it is a little known fact the Pistons don't "fastbreak" all that much. They actually have the 2nd slowest tempo of any team in the league. The half-court offense is what has taken huge strides this year.

How many games did Rasheed go 1 for 9 from the arc under Brown? How many threes are the Pistons shooting Flip compared to under Brown? How many fast break points are the Pistons getting under Flip compared to under Brown? How many points are the Pistons getting from post up plays in the paint from all players combined under Flip compared to under Brown.

I believe statistics in each of these areas will support what I have said about the Pistons relying more on jump shooting, especially from beyond the arc.

While I agree, Rasheed and McDyes can have some impact in the paint, in some ways they appear to become a bit of a black hole down low, when posting. Both become so focused on their own game, that the flow of the offense suffers. If they are hitting, no problem. But against stronger interior defenders shooting percentages better passing will be necessary.

[Tanya]

Both your points remain to be seen.

The Pistons new style and commitment to winning regular season games, certainly has translated into a better regular season record at this point, for this year. But nothing else has been proven.

The facts are, every team in the league had major adjustments from changes in personel and injury, compared to the Pistons. The Pistons only change was to Flip. Credit him for not screwing up a great team, at least not yet. Flip's opening up the offense AND the Pistons having few other adjustments to make, has helped in the regular season.

The playoffs will write their own story. It appears Pop and a few Spurs know a little something about develolping a team for that great time of year for NBA Fans.

Right. Both my points remain to be seen. But any comment on this thread remain to be seen. The pistons new style brings them a better regular season record. So what makes people think Flip will screw things up in the playoffs? Because of his career record? Well it's just the same case that everyone at the beginning of the season predicted the pistons would be only the 4th seed in the EC because LB was gone. Now people start to predict the pistons won't be winning the playoffs no matter how good they do in the regular season, because they have a coach who has not won any playoffs.
So before you want me to prove why Flip won't make the pistons worse, can you prove me why he will screw them up?

One more thing, Flip has only coached two teams so far in his career, Timberwolves and the Pistons. Compare this two teams, I say the pistons > Flip's old timeberwolves team. Say it if you don't agree. That team had no chance to win the lakers back to then. If Shaq is 28 or younger now the pistons would have little chance to beat the miami too.

[FreshPrince22]

How many games did Rasheed go 1 for 9 from the arc under Brown?

I can't tell you exactly, but I can tell you that Rasheed is shooting a career high in three point percentage. Much higher than under Larry Brown. Shooters are going to have off nights. It's not productive to beat them down about it. Sheed is a smart guy. He can police himself. The next game he went 1 of 2. You can't say "only shoot ___ many threes". That is just going to make him hesitate when he's open, and that's not going to have positive results.


How many threes are the Pistons shooting Flip compared to under Brown?

About 4 more per game. Perfectly reasonable, IMO. They shoot them when they're open. I can't see how you can have a problem with that. Chauncey, Rip, Mo Evans, Delfino, and Sheed are all shooting career high percentages on threes. It's not a problem untill they start forcing contested threes. And that won't happen with this team.



How many fast break points are the Pistons getting under Flip compared to under Brown?

People don't realize that the Pistons got out on the break last year as well. That really hasn't changed. Really, the only added fast break is Rip's pull-up 10-footer on the break that he gets once or twice per game. That's his game though.



How many points are the Pistons getting from post up plays in the paint from all players combined under Flip compared to under Brown.

It depends. Most of the post ups under LB were due to broken plays, late in the shot clock. This year, Sheed and (occasionally) Rip post up more. Tayshaun is a bit less (though he's been posting up quite a bit lately). And Chauncey is about the same.




While I agree, Rasheed and McDyes can have some impact in the paint, in some ways they appear to become a bit of a black hole down low, when posting. Both become so focused on their own game, that the flow of the offense suffers. If they are hitting, no problem. But against stronger interior defenders shooting percentages better passing will be necessary.

This paragraph in particular makes me think you don't watch the Pistons very often. Rasheed's dishing out more assists than he has in 5 years. His 2nd highest amount ever. And he's averaging 1 assist more than he was under LB the last 2 years. The last thing Rasheed should be called is a "blackhole". The dude is way too unselfish at times. He is probably the best face-up post player in the league. I wish he was a black hole down there. He's pretty much impossible to stop when he's facing the basket from 15 feet.

As for Dice... Despite his minutes being down considerably, he's also averaging more assists than last season. And I wouldn't blame him if he was a black hole. He is tough to stop on that turnaround J, and he is supposed to be the focus of the offense when he's out there. If he takes a shot or 2, and he feels like he's off he doesn't force the issue at all. You don't have to worry about those 2 guys being "blackholes". There isn't a blackhole on this team.

[Darrin]

This was a tremendous and well-thought post.

I believe that previous experience is overrated in terms of coaches. For instance, Rick Carlisle had no previous coaching experience when he took the Pistons to the second round. Chuck Daly had a 30 games or so coaching a bad Cleveland Cavaliers team before he came to the Pistons. Coaching is evaluated in a very relative way: Did the team and the players perform at or exceeding their potential?

But if we are going to talk about his record, it's not that bad. The last time that Flip Saunders had a number one seed in his conference, with a team as deep as the Pistons on both ends of the court, he guided his team to game six of the Western Conference Finals. He won two games in that series despite the team's most experienced leader, Sam Cassell, hobbling around the court.

The one thing that Saunders has shown the ability to do, and it's critical in late-game situations in the playoffs, is make adjustments to what the defense is providing. This team has very few bad nights in terms of shooting because Saunders has learned to take the poor shooters out of games. Rip Hamilton has had a few bad nights this season - most notably in the loss to the Wizards and the win against the Bulls in Chicago - and Saunders has had no problem pulling those players in favor of the bench.

I'll point this out - with the Wolves down 1-0 to the Spurs in the first round of the 1999 playoffs, Minnesota rebounded to do what only 4 other teams (of 25) had done all year - win in the Alamodome against the eventual Champions (80-71, Game two WCQF).

The LA Lakers were down eight points with less than two minutes left in the third period of game five of their 2003 playoff series. The Wolves were four minutes and fourty seconds away from having the Defending Champions down 3-1 in the first round. They lost that game, 102-97, to which KG commented "Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn."

He's had two series - 2003 and 2004 - when his team has had home-court advantage. He's only had one division title, and a truly underrated issue with his coaching - Stephon Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Chauncey Billups, Tom Gugliotta, Joe Smith (CBA violations), Gary Trent, Felipe Lopez, Felton Spencer, JR Rider, Christian Laettner, Tom Hammonds, Cherokee Parks, Dean Garrett, Andrew Lang, Malik Sealy (death), Terry Porter, Rasho Nesterovic - all of these players had success under Flip Saunders, and the majority of them left the team. There hasn't been a consistent core of players in his locker room his entire coaching career. That makes it very hard to judge what he will do with a group of guys that have talent, experience together, and chemistry.

Only time will answer this question, however, I have no problems seeing him on the bench in a late-round, late-game situation. Much was made about the fact Rick Carlisle "out-coached" Larry Brown in the 2003 Eastern Conference Semifinals when Carlisle's Pistons beat Brown's Sixers. When the two coaches with new teams matched up in both the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals and the 2005 Eastern Conference Semis, Brown walked away victorious on both occasions.

Much was made about Brown, for as good a coach as he is, only getting to the NBA Finals once, and never winning a Championship. How was he going to teach the Pistons how to win that big game when he couldn't close out the Lakers in 2001; how could he do it in 2004? He couldn't win against New York or Orlando when he was with Indiana. The man brought a Championship to Detroit and took the other Pistons team he coached to game seven of the NBA Finals.

Does that guarantee success for Flip Saunders? Nothing does except results. But I don't worry about this problem. When evaluating coaching candidates during the Conference Finals last season (LB to Cleveland was the dominant headline after game 3), Flip Saunders was at the top of my list. Phil Jackson was still out there, so was Paul Silas, Maurice Cheeks - and my top coaching candidate was Flip Saunders.

When he got to Minnesota, they had never made the playoffs. He was winning with a bunch of nobodies and wash-ups. He successfully molded KG, the first high schooler in the NBA in 25 years, into an all-world talent. Listing that as an accomplishment, he's got a lot of room with Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant, Rashard Lewis and Nate McMillan, etc. But Saunders was the first, a local kid with nothing more than a CBA background. His schemes, although I didn't like the zone, were inventive and affective. And I hated to see my Pistons go against his team because he always, always out-coached the Pistons - it didn't matter who was coaching them.

I went from laughing at the mere mention of the Wolves to cheering for them over his tenure. He's a tremendous basketball mind and he's not a manic personality like Larry Brown or Doug Collins. One of his players says he gives those he's coaching enough rope to hang themselves. Those that don't - like Chauncey Billups when Terrell Brandon encouters knee ailments - become success stories. I've always felt that Brown had too much credit given to him for the development of Chauncey Billups. The truth is in the pudding:

Two years, 4.2 million from Minnesota in the summer of 2000.
Six years, 42 million from the Pistons in the summer of 2002.


Bottom line: Flip Saunders is an excellent coach and I have very little concern for how he will coach in the playoffs.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Interesting thread. Love the heated discussions. I'll see if I can add a little to it!

In regards to Flip and his history, I've always felt that he's kinda gotten a raw deal. People love to talk about Flip's playoff record, and how often he failed to get out of the first round. I think he unduly takes too much of the blame. The fact is, that his teams were supposed to lose those first round series. Every year (I'm going off of memory, and not stats, so someone may be able to correct me about possibly one or two years) his Twolves faced a superior opponent. The lone exception, was 2003-2004 in which he went to the WCF. Of course you'd like a team to occasionally beat the odds and win in an upset, but IMO the way NBA playoffs are setup, the better team almost always wins. That's why I love the 5 and 7 game series as opposed to a "one and done" as in the NFL. The better team is supposed to win. And quite frankly, the Twolves were not the better team.

I personally lay more of the blame on Garnett. I lay blame on the lower quality of supporting casts (not all years...but some years). I blame McHale for being a poor GM. The Joe Smith fiasco. The drafting and trading of Starbury. I blame the lack of chemistry. It always seemed that they had 2 new starters every year. Look at how many different players the T-Wolves had in the last 10 years. It's amazing how many players have come and gone. The team never seemed to have alot of consistency, due to injury or attitude, year in, year out. Perhaps some of that is excuse making, but IMO they are all factors that led to them not being great playoff teams.

I clearly remember everyone dogging Garnett for not putting the team on his shoulders. Not wanting the ball when it counted. I am a HUGE Garnett supporter. He is my second favorite player after Billups. But I have to say that as a super star player who had an obscene contract, he was supposed to get it done. I don't know how much of that you can really put on his coach. Much like we've seen from Lebron this year recently, he wimped out when the pressure was on.

People talk about Flip and his lack of defense. I may agree with some of those arguments. I am not a fan of the zone. Flip obviously believes in it. I think there are times when it can be a benefit, if for nothing else than to offer a different look. I question though, based on the players he had, would a different scheme really have mattered much? I don't know. The origional poster made a statement that Flip didn't install the zone in Detroit, but in fact he has. You don't see it alot. The players are still learning it. The players are so confident in their man D skills. But each week, we see more and more of it being used..... at times. I think at the end of the day, incorporating it, will help us.

While I say Flip has taken too much blame through the years, I also think he is getting a little too much credit this year. (And I believe he'd be the first person to agree w/ me) The bottom line is that the Pistons are a Championship tested and proven team. The trust, chemistry and skills were already there. Sure, Flip has opened up the offense, but these guys already know how to play. They already know how to win. They are truly driven this year. The loss to the Spurs hurt. All of the credit/love that LB received hurt. They do want to prove that THEY are the reason for their success, and not their coach.

Before the season started, all I heard was how much the Pistons would struggle. Their defensive intensity would not be the same. Flip was going to screw up our chemistry.

People say that Flip adopted a great team, making him look good. The exact same can be said about LB. Our D didn't come from LB. If anything, Carlisle deserves soooo much more credit than he will ever receive. He brought the D to the "D". LB simply adopted a great team. IMO Carlisle would also have also won the Championship if he was still our boss man. LB had never won anyhting in the NBA till he came to Detroit. The players won the ring/belt!! not LB. Likewise, this year, the players are responsible for their success, not the coach.

I love how Flip has allowed the players to play this year. I think many Piston fans got frustrated w/ the LB era. We knew that the players had more offensive ability. We hated the scoring slumps. Flip has simply let them do their thing. Offensively, Rip and Chauncey are showing what they've always had the ability to do. It's definetly a much more fun team to watch.

The biggest thing that Flip has brought to the Pistons is the chance for the bench players to play through mistakes. Arroyo and Delfino now can play without looking over their shoulders if they make an error. I've found it interesting to watch the bench development this year. Delfino has SKILLS. Arroyo, at times, is one of the best passers in the game. Evans has been a pleasant suprise. The problem is, that they don't neccesarily play well together.

Early in the year, Flip would sit all the starters, and insert all the bench players late in games. Now, he tries to play the bench players in conjustion with the starters. Delfino has especially flourished due to this. Arroyo..........quite often, sucks. In a fast break, he can make an unbleievable no-look pass. In a half court, he dribbles out the clock. Flip recognized this, and has tended to play Evans and Delfino alongside Chauncey. He is better able to create for these guys allowing them to develop better tendencies and skills. Likewise, he has played Arroyo more often w/ Rip. With Rips' constant movement, it has allowed Arroyo to function better in a half court setting.(playing the bench more w/ the starters has also led to more minutes per game for the starters)

Again I say, Flip's biggest influence to our team has been bench development. And it will pay huge dividends as the season delves into the playoffs. And I cannot wait for Hunter to return!!! We will consistently go 10 dep....something that was unheard of under LB.

Basically, Flip has been a nice change of pace for the Pistons. We needed to flex our offense muscle a little. He's given us that opportunity. Wheteher it be with Flip or LB or Carlisle, we still have 5 great players. We have 5 players that know how to win. They are tested. They are hungry. Flip will not neccesarily win or lose any games for us this year. If we are lucky enough to make the Finals, it will not be because of Flip. If we lose in the Finals, I do not think we will have Flip to blame.

In contrast to that, I personally do blame LB for our loss in game 7. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, LB's decision to sit Sheed and Dice, and allow Prince to (attempt to) guard TD cost us the game. Yes, Sheed fucked up in game 5. But game 7 is where you give your everything. There are no second chances. In that instance, LB screwed us.

To answer the basic question of the thread, I do not think Flip will really have any serious impact on how the Pistons do in the playoffs. If anything, I'll say it will be a positive in that the atmosphere is better. The difference is having between a "players coach" and a hard ass. IMO younger untested players tend to need the hard ass, whereas the veteran players do better w/ a players coach who allows the players to be themselves and do their thing. Give me Flip over LB any day.

Alot has been mentioned about minutes played. I personally do not remember Piston fans moaning about fatigue due to the minutes played by our players. Much like FP22 stated, I recall alot of concern due to how many "playoff" minutes the guys had to play..in particular Tay and Ben. But that had more to do w/ 6 and 7 game series as opposed to regular season minutes. I might have simply ignored it, as it sounds too much like excuse making to me. I don't know. So I cannot answer for those people. I will say though that I have no qualms with our starters getting 35-38 minutes a game.

If you look at any team in the league, you will find their "star" player or players getting 35+ minutes every game. Detroit is different from many teams in that it has 5 pseudo stars as their starters. All 5 guys rank consistently as being in the top 6 at their respective positions. You'd typically expect a top 6 player at any position to play 35+minutes. Teams like the Spurs,Nets,Warriors,Dallas,Suns,Heat,Cavs,Bucks may be able to boast 3 such players, but I cannot name a single team other than Detroit that has more than 3 players that should get those type of minutes.

[SequSpur]

Damn, yall are some essay writing mofos.

Spurs in Four.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Damn, yall are some essay writing mofos.




LOL ! those are 2 back to back long ass posts.......

[5ToolMan]

Right. Both my points remain to be seen. But any comment on this thread remain to be seen. The pistons new style brings them a better regular season record. So what makes people think Flip will screw things up in the playoffs? Because of his career record? Well it's just the same case that everyone at the beginning of the season predicted the pistons would be only the 4th seed in the EC because LB was gone. Now people start to predict the pistons won't be winning the playoffs no matter how good they do in the regular season, because they have a coach who has not won any playoffs.
So before you want me to prove why Flip won't make the pistons worse, can you prove me why he will screw them up?

One more thing, Flip has only coached two teams so far in his career, Timberwolves and the Pistons. Compare this two teams, I say the pistons > Flip's old timeberwolves team. Say it if you don't agree. That team had no chance to win the lakers back to then. If Shaq is 28 or younger now the pistons would have little chance to beat the miami too.

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

In an earlier post, I said people make too much of Flip's supposed playoff failures. Simply put, the Wolves were never good enough to gain home court advantage except in 2004. That year, they made it all the way to the WCF's. You can't really hold that loss on Flip, as the Lakers were simply a more seasoned playoff winner, expecially after righting the ship against the Spurs.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

[Darrin]

Interesting thread. Love the heated discussions. I'll see if I can add a little to it!

I personally lay more of the blame on Garnett. I lay blame on the lower quality of supporting casts (not all years...but some years). I blame McHale for being a poor GM. The Joe Smith fiasco. The drafting and trading of Starbury. I blame the lack of chemistry. It always seemed that they had 2 new starters every year. Look at how many different players the T-Wolves had in the last 10 years. It's amazing how many players have come and gone. The team never seemed to have alot of consistency, due to injury or attitude, year in, year out. Perhaps some of that is excuse making, but IMO they are all factors that led to them not being great playoff teams.

I blame McHale for not keeping the talent and addressing the team's needs. KG and Flip did their jobs. I've always hated that some people tried to characterize KG as Keith Van Horn, or something, especially after seeing how the flex offense works up close (the post options on offense are the fourth to sixth options).


While I say Flip has taken too much blame through the years, I also think he is getting a little too much credit this year. (And I believe he'd be the first person to agree w/ me) The bottom line is that the Pistons are a Championship tested and proven team. The trust, chemistry and skills were already there. Sure, Flip has opened up the offense, but these guys already know how to play. They already know how to win. They are truly driven this year. The loss to the Spurs hurt. All of the credit/love that LB received hurt.


The (Pistons players) do want to prove that THEY are the reason for their success, and not their coach.

Amen. The Pistons are more focused than I have seen this cast of characters. This team's focus on the Championship reminds me of the 2001-02 squad's focus on the Division title and winning a playoff series (Ben Wallace the only Piston to remain on that team).



Our D didn't come from LB. If anything, Carlisle deserves soooo much more credit than he will ever receive. He brought the D to the "D". LB simply adopted a great team. IMO Carlisle would also have also won the Championship if he was still our boss man.

Don't get me wrong, Larry Brown has made these Pistons players better. But you're right. You may not look at the numbers, but I do. The only starter to change from 2000-01 and 2001-02 was Cliff Robinson for Joe Smith (Chucky Atkins, Jerry Stackhouse, Mike Curry, Ben Wallace).

2000-01 APPG: 97.3 PPG
2001-02 APPG: 92.2 PPG

Results:
2000-01: 32-50 (10th in Conference)
2001-02: 50-32 (2nd in Conference)



We knew that the players had more offensive ability. We hated the scoring slumps. Flip has simply let them do their thing. Offensively, Rip and Chauncey are showing what they've always had the ability to do. It's definetly a much more fun team to watch.

Once again, great point. The Pistons had a game last season they didn't SCORE A FIELD GOAL IN THE FOURTH QUARTER...and they won, 64-62 over Utah. The scoring droughts would take a blowout win and make it a close contest, and this was wearing down our players.


Alot has been mentioned about minutes played. I personally do not remember Piston fans moaning about fatigue due to the minutes played by our players.

This fan did, although it generally manifested itself in other indirect arguments - the list of backup point guards (Smush Parker, Anthony Goldwire, Horace Jenkins, finally trading for Carlos Arroyo), the lack of a bench, the horrific performances against Atlanta, Chicago, and Charlotte, mostly on back-to-backs. LB ripping his reserves out of a game because they allowed Toronto to cut the lead to 8. This wasn't just a team searching for a bench or motivation, but conserving energy for a long playoff run. The players even said so much.


If you look at any team in the league, you will find their "star" player or players getting 35+ minutes every game. Detroit is different from many teams in that it has 5 pseudo stars as their starters. All 5 guys rank consistently as being in the top 6 at their respective positions. You'd typically expect a top 6 player at any position to play 35+minutes. Teams like the Spurs,Nets,Warriors,Dallas,Suns,Heat,Cavs,Bucks may be able to boast 3 such players, but I cannot name a single team other than Detroit that has more than 3 players that should get those type of minutes.

This is true, but when the starters are carrying the load the entire time they are on the floor, that's where the problems start to arise. That's been the difference this season; Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, and McDyess all can make plays. The same could not be said of Dupree, Ham, and Arroyo on both sides of the court, while Hunter couldn't contribute to the offense. That meant if Billups was off the floor, Arroyo was still running offensive sets for Hamilton. If Dupree is in for Prince, that's just one less offensive option. Do you see what I mean when I say the minutes are less wearing on the Pistons starters? While they are still the best players the Pistons have, the bench can make plays.

[Darrin]

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

Since this team plays for Championships, I find these two paragraphs contradicting each other. The idea of inside-outside has been used this season; the Pistons are using jumpshots because they can do so effectively. Honestly, the New Jersey game is the first time this season I have seen them settle for jumpers.

We're in the dog days and that means that teams are starting to mail it in. The first options in the flex are perimeter-oriented, and the first high-percentage shot is the one taken. So it leaves one with the impression the Pistons prefer to score on the perimeter. If you've seen some of their grind-it-out wins (at Houston, at Memphis) they do not lack offensive weapons on the inside.

[Tanya]

I don't think too many expected the absence of Larry to effect the Pistons much. I know I sure did not. Flip is a solid offensive coach. And he has a team that has been drilled for two years on defense.

In an earlier post, I said people make too much of Flip's supposed playoff failures. Simply put, the Wolves were never good enough to gain home court advantage except in 2004. That year, they made it all the way to the WCF's. You can't really hold that loss on Flip, as the Lakers were simply a more seasoned playoff winner, expecially after righting the ship against the Spurs.

Still, I see the Piston's increased use of jump shots, especially three point shots, as potential problems in the playoffs. Team trends built during 82 game seasons are hard to break. Once defensive intensity picks up and shooters legs tire, playoff teams thrive on more inside-outside execution.

I have no problem with the jump shots. Can you explain why that's a potential problem? Sorry if I am wasting your time. Rip is the best mid-jumper shooter. Chauncey is not Tony Parker. Tay and Sheed both can score inside and outside. There is no need to ask Rip and Chauncey to score more in the paint if their jump shots fall. Manu is agressive but the way he drives to the basket always scare me alot because he could easily get injured.

Now about the 3 pointers. The pistons have four players that can hit 3's: Chauncey, Rip, Tay and Sheed. If they are wide open, shoot them! Why not? The Spurs need Bowen and Horry to hit 3's. The Miami need Walker and Payton to hit 3's too. Again, I don't think this is a problem, as long as they don't shoot 3's crazy like the game is a 3-pointer contest.

[zeleni]

OK, but still. The person wrote:

That's the comment I was most interested in.

LB makes a team with chemistry. That IS his whole gig. He gets a group to like each other, and then he bullies them to work as an unit. Larry Brown never let his team without him being the ultimate scapegoat.

On the other hand we have Flip, who doesn't stand up to Garnett, who shuffles players to suit all involved and meanwhile wants to win championship. Flip is weak and can be bullied even by the players. So why would he wanted a team concept, when his own career is at stake? The first blow by the players can ruin Flip.

Now the chemistry: Flip likes adjustments, likes all sorts of zone defense and offensive trickery. I presume players would not respond to such trickery if coaching means playoff losses. He's got 5 franchize players on this team to take care of.

[jochhejaam]

As a brief epilogue, I wonder why the Pistons fans talk so much shit...I mean, didn't the Spurs earn the bragging rights by defeating the Pistons in the NBA Finals last year? Isn't the fact that the Spurs got the rings and didn't choke in the fourth quarter of Game 7 worth anything?
You are and should be proud of the ring for last year but bragging rights for being last years Champions does not carry over into the next year. You're a top contender this year but the bragging rights for 05-06 goes to the Finals winner of this year. Like so many posters have noted on this board, it's only the regular season so what's there to brag about?
Any team that appears strong during the regular season, Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Suns, Heat, has a right to speak confidently about their teams overall record and head to head decisions or speculate on their chances of becoming the Champions for this year.

Congratulation for the umpteenth time on being a great and respected Champion from last year but the book on this years Champion is still being written and most fans from the few select teams are hoping and believing that theirs will be the team spoken highly of in the final Chapter of this years story. :)

[polandprzem]

What a lame argument by some of the spurs fans :rolleyes

Godd job FreshPrince an Spurs>Pistons. First time in a long time I read the 'bigger' post.

Talking about Saunder - it's not that he will screw it up or not. We don't know. And talking how was he doing in 1999 is just ridiculous. How many years past? And Flip was still learning. Sometimes is good to change the previous inviorment like LB is doing in whole career (everybody talkin what a great coach he was but before Dave came to the SA he couldn't win jack). But he is great coach not taking anything from his success.

I thought that Detroit plyers will eat up Flip for dinner. But occasionaly they decided not to do this and make a frienship. Why I thought they would eat him? he is too soft a person for all those Sheeds and strong characters.
But the players are to good to just go into pieces.(or whatever should it sound)

Minutes?
Get real. The 2004 NBA Champions and the 2005 Finalists - that's all I had to say about the minutes. They have no injury problems. none. (big ones)


What I realy cears right now is how the spurs can be better in the PO and how they are doing. And If spurs will be in the Finals then Ill be thinking more about their opponents. Whether is Detroit or Detroit or Pistons



BTW. Do you think the spurs and the Pistons are nemesis to eachother. Like the Boston- Lakers in '80s ?

[zeleni]

I thought that Detroit plyers will eat up Flip for dinner. But occasionaly they decided not to do this and make a frienship. Why I thought they would eat him? he is too soft a person for all those Sheeds and strong characters.
But the players are to good to just go into pieces.(or whatever should it sound)
He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.




BTW. Do you think the spurs and the Pistons are nemesis to eachother. Like the Boston- Lakers in '80s ?
Yeah. But not this year. This year New Jersey will get into the finals.

[polandprzem]

He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.
Yup . If no major injurys will happen and they will loose in the Conf Finals than Flip will be cursed. But I do not think it will happen.

You know Flip is learning all the time like everybody else and if he is smart enough he can conlude from it and the leauge is in trouble.
But realy I do not see the Pistons with worst (from the last years PO) Ben and worst mcDyess to beat te spurs in maximum of their play. Now - we know the Pistons can play hard tough and so on. We havent seen spurs like that this year. Just have to wait after the ASB and the March and April games will show us the real spurs.

As for NJ. Come on. They can compite but talking about them being in the Finals is realy risky. Postons would go through them in six. (max 2 games by the Nest).
Is Frank better coach than Flip?

[jochhejaam]

He is too soft, but players still needs tactics and strategy by a COACH, not a soft person whose career can crumble. If Pistons fail in Conference finals or something like that, they will all turn against the coach.
I think Flip being "too soft" is a misnomer, don't be fooled by usually stoic, impassioned look on his face. I believe he's a perfect fit for the Piston's players who are totally focused on winning with the "team concept", a label which includes respecting the coaches abilities and genuinely buying into him being the leader of the team.
Players don't respect a coach that's "too soft".

[zeleni]

I think Flip being "too soft" is a misnomer, don't be fooled by usually stoic, impassioned look on his face. I believe he's a perfect fit for the Piston's players who are totally focused on winning with the "team concept", a label which includes respecting the coaches abilities and genuinely buying into him being the leader of the team.
Players don't respect a coach that's "too soft".

I was very intrigued by Flip when he coached Rasho. He doesn't make priorities on what to do next, he is more "what has happened with the team?" kind of a guy. He never leads a team more the to a winning streak and then he tries to fix something after the crisis happen. Not really a people's managment material. At playoffs players need to be tough and smart. Flip will be smart, they will be sheep, and they will get angry at him for making them sheep.

He will be soft and I had become a Messiah... :blah That's just my opinion.

Really, Polandprzem, New Jersey will be in the finals. Or Cleveland, i really do not care... I have an exam coming up, so i need to sleep and dream about something more important. :lol

[5ToolMan]

This paragraph in particular makes me think you don't watch the Pistons very often. Rasheed's dishing out more assists than he has in 5 years. His 2nd highest amount ever. And he's averaging 1 assist more than he was under LB the last 2 years. The last thing Rasheed should be called is a "blackhole". The dude is way too unselfish at times. He is probably the best face-up post player in the league. I wish he was a black hole down there. He's pretty much impossible to stop when he's facing the basket from 15 feet.

With League Pass, I see almost all Piston's games except segments that do not coincide with Spurs action. I acknowledge Rasheed passes well facing the basket as his advantage in length allow him to see the floor and wrap passes to open teammates. But there is an extreme difference when he posts up in the low blocks. From your comments above it appears you are trying to confuse the difference between when a player is facing up, and when he is posting. When Wallace posts in the low blocks, especially against long 7 footers like the Spurs have three of, I am confortable with the statement that he seldom passes out. He has the length to get the shots off, but is only completly focused on his offense in those brief moments.

In my view, Rasheed and McDyess are both solid post up players, yet the Pistons are not using them to post up as much as they should. In the regular season it is clear this does not hurt their team results. However in the playoffs, effective post play on both ends of the floor is at a premium.



As for Dice... Despite his minutes being down considerably, he's also averaging more assists than last season. And I wouldn't blame him if he was a black hole. He is tough to stop on that turnaround J, and he is supposed to be the focus of the offense when he's out there. If he takes a shot or 2, and he feels like he's off he doesn't force the issue at all. You don't have to worry about those 2 guys being "blackholes". There isn't a blackhole on this team.

Blackhole might be a little strong, as both are unselfish players. My point was that each are not as strong in passing out the post when backing down in the low blocks. I will stand by that.

[DarkReign]

Whoooooooooooo!

How can 2 teams from seperate conferences get in this kind of heated argument in February?!

There is no guarantee that WE will meet in the Finals. But I can tell you this, the Pistons have a much, much easier road there than the Spurs. No 7 game series with 2 days rest into the Finals.

Good luck.

[5ToolMan]

Whoooooooooooo!

How can 2 teams from seperate conferences get in this kind of heated argument in February?!

There is no guarantee that WE will meet in the Finals. But I can tell you this, the Pistons have a much, much easier road there than the Spurs. No 7 game series with 2 days rest into the Finals.

Good luck.

I don't know it heated is a very accurate description of most of the post. And your guarantee that the Piston's will have an easier road is foolish at best.

Stick with your first thought that it is only February. The Heat, Nets, and Cavs have all shown flashes that they could be solid if development continues for four more months. And there are a few more young teams like the Bulls, Bucks and Celtics who could get a little run and some confidence going.

While it is clear the West is still stronger overall, each team in either conference has to only get past three other teams to get the the finals. And until the brackets are set AND until each a team moves to the next round, we don't know what path will lay in their way.

[conqueso]

I don't know it heated is a very accurate description of most of the post. And your guarantee that the Piston's will have an easier road is foolish at best....While it is clear the West is still stronger overall, each team in either conference has to only get past three other teams to get the the finals. And until the brackets are set AND until each a team moves to the next round, we don't know what path will lay in their way.

While this is true, we also can say with a fair amount of certainty that Dallas and San Antonio will meet in the second round. We know the winner of the SW is going to be the number 1 seed, and we know that 2nd place in the SW is probably good for the 4 seed, and Memphis sure as hell isn't going to overtake either Dallas or SA.

Likewise, we know that Detroit is probably playing Cleveland in the second round based on the same logic. While I hate to agree with Dark Reign, a second round matchup against a Dallas team with playoff experience coached by my man AJ sounds scarier than a series against LBJ, and injury-prone Larry Hughes, a big white dump down low, and a bunch of scrubs. Dallas has kept up with the Spurs all season, while Cleveland is 11.5 games behind Detroit.

As for the other conference semis, unless something completely crazy happens, you have Miami/NJ in the East and Phoenix/Denver in the West. The winner of those two series is pretty easy to call, but by no means a complete certainty. So what seems likely is a Pistons/Heat, Spurs/Suns double rematch in the conference finals. That's what it looks like right now, and there's definitely a higher probability of that scenario than something crazy like Nets-Nuggets in the Finals. Obviously anything can happen, including injuries, upsets, or Armageddon, but looking at it realistically, it looks as if Detroit will probably have a much easier semi-final matchup than the Spurs, and thus an easier road to the Finals.

[FreshPrince22]

With League Pass, I see almost all Piston's games except segments that do not coincide with Spurs action. I acknowledge Rasheed passes well facing the basket as his advantage in length allow him to see the floor and wrap passes to open teammates. But there is an extreme difference when he posts up in the low blocks. From your comments above it appears you are trying to confuse the difference between when a player is facing up, and when he is posting. When Wallace posts in the low blocks, especially against long 7 footers like the Spurs have three of, I am confortable with the statement that he seldom passes out. He has the length to get the shots off, but is only completly focused on his offense in those brief moments.

In my view, Rasheed and McDyess are both solid post up players, yet the Pistons are not using them to post up as much as they should. In the regular season it is clear this does not hurt their team results. However in the playoffs, effective post play on both ends of the floor is at a premium.

Blackhole might be a little strong, as both are unselfish players. My point was that each are not as strong in passing out the post when backing down in the low blocks. I will stand by that.

Sheed is not a back-to-the-basket player. It is very rare to see him posting up with his back to the basket. Both this year and last year. Usually he ends up turning, facing, and shooting over his man. That's his game because of that high release he has. You're not going to see him throw up a hook shot or something.

And personally, when it comes to Sheed. He can take as many shots in the post as he wants. No one in the league can challenge it. But still, you're really nitpicking at something that isn't a factor. He doesn't exactly post up a ton (usually 3-4 times in spurts), and when he does, he is a very fine passer. Dice's passing is a complete non-factor as well. His job is to shoot the ball. And despite the Spurs having "3 long 7 footers", he always plays fantastic against the Spurs. So I hope he keeps doing what he's been doing.

[polandprzem]

Sheed is realy killing me with his fade away. Unsopable.

But he is more a permieter playa, jumpshooter and "screen and roll step back hitter".

And one of the best guarding Tim (PJ Brown, Foster the other ones)

[conqueso]

Sheed is realy killing me with his fade away. Unsopable.

But he is more a permieter playa, jumpshooter and "screen and roll step back hitter".

And one of the best guarding Tim (PJ Brown, Foster the other ones)

Tim Duncan, 2005 NBA Finals:
Game 1: 24 points (12-22), 17 rebounds
Game 2: 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds
Game 3: 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds
Game 4: 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds
Game 5: 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds
Game 6: 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds
Game 7: 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds

Finals Averages: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg
Season Averages: 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg

Tim Duncan, 2005 Regular Season (versus Detroit):
12/3/04: 18 points, 18 rebounds
3/20/05: injured in first quarter

(I have discounted the meetings between the teams this year because Tim was injured and the focus of this discussion really has been the past and not this season...although I'm already expecting to get blasted about not including those stats, I'll let someone else do it.)

So what do the numbers tell us? That Sheed is no better than the rest of the league at stopping Duncan's scoring, and that he gives up way more rebounds to TD than other defenders. Now, I know that Ben Wallace drew Duncan as his defensive assignment a lot in the NBA Finals, but that certainly doesn't help out the case for Rasheed, since Big Ben was Defensive Player of the Year and is just kind of axiomatically a better defender than Sheed.

So when you Pistons fans claim that Sheed plays great defense on Duncan, you really need to qualify the statement by adding "in 3 out of 7 Finals games" or "for brief spurts in one quarter" or "alright with scoring on some nights but just reprehensibly bad on the rebounds every night" or something like that. Or maybe someone could explain the intangibles of how they think Sheed is a great defender on Duncan, because the stats don't really support that argument.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Tim Duncan, 2005 NBA Finals:
Game 1: 24 points (12-22), 17 rebounds
Game 2: 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds
Game 3: 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds
Game 4: 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds
Game 5: 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds
Game 6: 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds
Game 7: 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds

Finals Averages: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg
Season Averages: 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg

Tim Duncan, 2005 Regular Season (versus Detroit):
12/3/04: 18 points, 18 rebounds
3/20/05: injured in first quarter

(I have discounted the meetings between the teams this year because Tim was injured and the focus of this discussion really has been the past and not this season...although I'm already expecting to get blasted about not including those stats, I'll let someone else do it.)

So what do the numbers tell us? That Sheed is no better than the rest of the league at stopping Duncan's scoring, and that he gives up way more rebounds to TD than other defenders. Now, I know that Ben Wallace drew Duncan as his defensive assignment a lot in the NBA Finals, but that certainly doesn't help out the case for Rasheed, since Big Ben was Defensive Player of the Year and is just kind of axiomatically a better defender than Sheed.

So when you Pistons fans claim that Sheed plays great defense on Duncan, you really need to qualify the statement by adding "in 3 out of 7 Finals games" or "for brief spurts in one quarter" or "alright with scoring on some nights but just reprehensibly bad on the rebounds every night" or something like that. Or maybe someone could explain the intangibles of how they think Sheed is a great defender on Duncan, because the stats don't really support that argument.

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

[FreshPrince22]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

Exactly. Timmy is going to get his points against ANYONE in the league. It's a matter of how many shots he needs to get there, and how hard he works for them.

[jochhejaam]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...
56-129 for the series like you said just over 43% for the series vs 50% for last season and 49% this season. If he had hit his average of 50% in the series he would have had 14% more points or averaged 23 ppg instead of 20.
A far cry from being owned but still good defense on Tim.

[5ToolMan]

While this is true, we also can say with a fair amount of certainty that Dallas and San Antonio will meet in the second round. We know the winner of the SW is going to be the number 1 seed, and we know that 2nd place in the SW is probably good for the 4 seed, and Memphis sure as hell isn't going to overtake either Dallas or SA.

Likewise, we know that Detroit is probably playing Cleveland in the second round based on the same logic. While I hate to agree with Dark Reign, a second round matchup against a Dallas team with playoff experience coached by my man AJ sounds scarier than a series against LBJ, and injury-prone Larry Hughes, a big white dump down low, and a bunch of scrubs. Dallas has kept up with the Spurs all season, while Cleveland is 11.5 games behind Detroit.

As for the other conference semis, unless something completely crazy happens, you have Miami/NJ in the East and Phoenix/Denver in the West. The winner of those two series is pretty easy to call, but by no means a complete certainty. So what seems likely is a Pistons/Heat, Spurs/Suns double rematch in the conference finals. That's what it looks like right now, and there's definitely a higher probability of that scenario than something crazy like Nets-Nuggets in the Finals. Obviously anything can happen, including injuries, upsets, or Armageddon, but looking at it realistically, it looks as if Detroit will probably have a much easier semi-final matchup than the Spurs, and thus an easier road to the Finals.

I agree San Antonio and Dallas have a large advantage to grab the 1 and 4 seeds. However the Suns at only six back, and a return of Amare getting nearer, are not exactly eliminated from gaining the top seed, especially with potential injuries to key Spurs and Mavs.

If the Spurs, Mavs, or Suns gain the #1 seed, they may have their toughest round against a Rockets who may finally be getting healthy soon enough to slip in at #8. Potentially, this may be the toughest matchup for each of these teams.

I am not trying to pump the Rockets, just trying to demonstrate we don't know how teams will match up in a series, untill the series is over. Adjustments, focus and results are much different when playing a series of games against the same opponent, in win or go home time setting, than in the regular season, with little time to prepair.

In 2003 the 8th seeded Suns gave the Spurs perhaps the toughest series. In 2005 the top seeded Suns were perhaps the Spurs easiest series. I know both the Spurs and Suns were quite different teams from 2003 to 2005. But still, the Suns playing the Spurs tougher as an 8 seed than as the top dogs, tells me things are not always completly predictible.

[5ToolMan]

Sheed is not a back-to-the-basket player. It is very rare to see him posting up with his back to the basket. Both this year and last year. Usually he ends up turning, facing, and shooting over his man. That's his game because of that high release he has. You're not going to see him throw up a hook shot or something..

I agree, Rasheed does not post much with his back to the basket. Where we do not agree, is on the thought toat he and the Pistons would be better served in playoff hoops if he were to post more. I think his post game in under utilized, making the Pistons too dependent on jump shots.

If Duncan is much more mobile than in 2005, I grant a mighty bif IF, the Pistons penetration will be slowed, and the jump shots will be easier to close out. If that is the case, the Pistons will need more offense from the low block than they are currently are getting.


And personally, when it comes to Sheed. He can take as many shots in the post as he wants. No one in the league can challenge it. But still, you're really nitpicking at something that isn't a factor. He doesn't exactly post up a ton (usually 3-4 times in spurts), and when he does, he is a very fine passer. Dice's passing is a complete non-factor as well. His job is to shoot the ball. And despite the Spurs having "3 long 7 footers", he always plays fantastic against the Spurs. So I hope he keeps doing what he's been doing.

My point all along is that he does not set up enough in the low blocks. Not only does his length make him tough to stop. With more practice playing with his back to the basket, his passing out of the double teams that will eventualy come, would improve.

I agree it is nitpicking, as would be any critique of a 38 - 5 team. That said, it is my oppinion that the Pistons would have an easier time in the playoffs, if they worked Rasheed more in the low blocks in the regular season.

[Darrin]

TD shot 43% and averaged 20 points on 18 shots. That is pretty good D on someone who many believe is the best big man in the game...

He actually shot 41.9% from the field, not 43%.

[Darrin]

LB makes a team with chemistry. That IS his whole gig. He gets a group to like each other, and then he bullies them to work as an unit. Larry Brown never let his team without him being the ultimate scapegoat.

On the other hand we have Flip, who doesn't stand up to Garnett, who shuffles players to suit all involved and meanwhile wants to win championship. Flip is weak and can be bullied even by the players. So why would he wanted a team concept, when his own career is at stake? The first blow by the players can ruin Flip.

Now the chemistry: Flip likes adjustments, likes all sorts of zone defense and offensive trickery. I presume players would not respond to such trickery if coaching means playoff losses. He's got 5 franchize players on this team to take care of.

What team are your watching?

[zeleni]

What team are your watching?

I spend too much time for nothing. I watched Larry Brown coaching 76's and Detroit when they played Lakers in the Finals.

I watched Flip playing Rasho for more than 2 seasons.

I read everything I can get about the Knicks and I want to know everything about the Pistons. You know a team where players weren't fed up with Brown when he left them?

Flip is fragile, and Larry is a son of a B. You really do not have to look at too many teams to conclude something like that, do you?

[leemajors]

flip appears to have control of his team, or maybe they just don't really need a choke collar on them, they know what to do. whether this is true come playoff time we will see, the piston's haven't really faced much adversity this season - this is in no way their own fault though, they have been that much better come gametime than just about everyone they have played, and that reflects well on both the coaches and players.

[Darrin]

I still don't think you are understanding why Spurs fans are bringing up minutes. Last season, it was the Pistons fans favorite excuse -- The Pistons are fatigued because the starters play so many minutes. This season, the starters play the same amount of minutes and Pistons fans say that fatigue isn't a factor.

:wtf

To quote Joe Dumars:

"We didn't have enough depth. We needed a much deeper team. I saw three or four positions on our team that I looked at our team and said 'We've got to get stronger at these postions. I've got to go find guys who can bring more to the party.'

The basic thing that caused us the most problems last year is that we relied so heavily on our starters. And you could see it, by the time they got to the Finals, they were on fumes, man. They were on fumes. I said 'Okay, that's on me. I've got to get more guys, a deeper team, and guys that I know can go on the floor and make plays."

Source - Fox Sports Detroit: "Detroit Pistons Season Preview."


It's not an excuse; it was a weakness, and one that the Spurs could and did exploit to win their third NBA Championship in seven years. Saying the Nets didn't have any outside shooting in 2003 isn't an excuse as to why they Spurs won a title, it was simply a weakness of the team.

If the Nets went out and signed Eric Piatkowski and traded for Ray Allen, referring back to the 2003 Finals and saying "I saw last season we didn't have any shooting, and now we do" wouldn't be discrediting the 2003-04 Spurs' chances of repeating as Champions.

[cheguevara]

Let's be honest. Flip didn't do Jack Shit yet, even with a monkey on Ruffies as a coach, Pistons would still have the same record.

But in the playoffs it's different, he'll need to step up

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Let's be honest. Flip didn't do Jack Shit yet, even with a monkey on Ruffies as a coach, Pistons would still have the same record.

But in the playoffs it's different, he'll need to step up

Jeff van Gundy? Barry Switzer?

[Brutalis]

Tim Duncan, 2005 NBA Finals:
Game 1: 24 points (12-22), 17 rebounds
Game 2: 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds
Game 3: 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds
Game 4: 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds
Game 5: 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds
Game 6: 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds
Game 7: 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds

Finals Averages: 20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg
Season Averages: 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg

Tim Duncan, 2005 Regular Season (versus Detroit):
12/3/04: 18 points, 18 rebounds
3/20/05: injured in first quarter

(I have discounted the meetings between the teams this year because Tim was injured and the focus of this discussion really has been the past and not this season...although I'm already expecting to get blasted about not including those stats, I'll let someone else do it.)

So what do the numbers tell us? That Sheed is no better than the rest of the league at stopping Duncan's scoring, and that he gives up way more rebounds to TD than other defenders. Now, I know that Ben Wallace drew Duncan as his defensive assignment a lot in the NBA Finals, but that certainly doesn't help out the case for Rasheed, since Big Ben was Defensive Player of the Year and is just kind of axiomatically a better defender than Sheed.

So when you Pistons fans claim that Sheed plays great defense on Duncan, you really need to qualify the statement by adding "in 3 out of 7 Finals games" or "for brief spurts in one quarter" or "alright with scoring on some nights but just reprehensibly bad on the rebounds every night" or something like that. Or maybe someone could explain the intangibles of how they think Sheed is a great defender on Duncan, because the stats don't really support that argument.


OOOOOOOOOOOOOWNED

/thread

[THE X-FACTOR]

Pistons fans were worried about Tayshaun and Rip's minutes last year. Ben, Sheed, and Chauncey all played/play very reasonable minutes. And really, Prince is the only guy I worry about.

Minutes - (04/05) - (05/06)
Hamilton - 38.5 - 36.9 (-1.7)
Prince - 37.1 - 36.0 (-1.1)

More importantly, since Delfino has "come on", Tayshaun's minutes are WAY down. He's averaging 29.7mpg over the last 11 games.

And IMO, the only "fatigue" that the Pistons felt last year was due to playing the Heat to a 7 game series, while the Spurs were resting at home.


:fro

[FreshPrince22]

Let's be honest. Flip didn't do Jack Shit yet, even with a monkey on Ruffies as a coach, Pistons would still have the same record.

But in the playoffs it's different, he'll need to step up

Honestly?? You're full of it. Flip has worked wonders with the Pistons offense. Once it was a burden. Now it's the most effecient offense this league has seen in years. He has taught this team to execute much better than they ever have in the past.

[Darrin]

I spend too much time for nothing. I watched Larry Brown coaching 76's and Detroit when they played Lakers in the Finals.

I watched Flip playing Rasho for more than 2 seasons.

I read everything I can get about the Knicks and I want to know everything about the Pistons. You know a team where players weren't fed up with Brown when he left them?

Flip is fragile, and Larry is a son of a B. You really do not have to look at too many teams to conclude something like that, do you?

Larry's whole bit is not about chemistry. I wouldn't say his stops in Indiana or Philadelphia had a cohesive locker room. I remember Mark Jackson being traded to Denver mid-1996-97, I remember J.Rose not liking him too much, and Reggie Miller feeding quotes to the media about his problems with coach. I seem to remember some press conference about "practice." I remember a certain center with an afro saying "I'm tired of hearing that shit" after LB, once again, questioned the team's effort after a loss last season.

What I remember from watching Larry Brown is that he's a traditional basketball mind. He wants the point guard to be distributor on the team and nothing else. He wants the bigs to play on the block and nothing else. He establishes his bigs early on in games to set up in the inside-outside game. No shots beyond 18 feet from the basket. He wants defensive rebounds, no second-shot opportunities for the other team because if you control the boards, you control possessions and opportunities. And from the beginning of the 2003-04 campaign to the end of the 2004-05 campaign, he eventually stopped listening to his players, something that has been a knock of Brown's back to his days in San Antonio.

What I have seen from Flip is exactly what was said about him: He doesn't brow beat players, he throws up the balls and says "play for your minutes." While Chuck Daly may have been more animated on the floor, in practice that's exactly what he told his team to do. Was he soft?

Let's say I grant your premise, and say Phillip Saunders is soft, you think that means his team will be? Who's calling 80% of the plays for his team? Who has to tell Ben Wallace to hit the offensive glass when his man leaves him on the offensive end (10 offensive boards last game)? Who tells T-Prince to take Reggie Miller on the block and when Stephen Jackson is on you, start going to the jumper?

Minnesota needs a strong leader as coach because he's exactly that - a leader, in every sense of the word. They needed him to teach them how to get to the playoffs. They needed him to teach them how to win when they got there.

The Pistons have had two tyrants in terms of coaching - Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown - they gave this team an identity and taught the players how to play basketball - and now they are. You don't think that with a team that's been to Game seven of the NBA Finals - all the starters, Carlos Arroyo, Carlos Delfino, Antonio McDyess, even Darko - that they are going to be impacted by Flip Saunders' "softness?"

Let me let you in on a little secret - Isiah Thomas and Bill Laimbeer ran most of Chuck Daly's huddles. When they didn't speak up, Ron Rothstein or Brendan Suhr ran the huddles. The Pistons knew what to do - Daly's coaching was done in practice. They had been through hell and back. He lasted 9 years because the team didn't tire of his voice. He didn't feel the need to say everything. That's a Hall-of-Famer I'm talking about.

So I ask again, what team are you watching that makes you believe that Flip Saunders is "soft?"

[polandprzem]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOWNED

/thread

If this a Owned thread... :rolleyes

41.8 I think ? And a major problem inside. If you haven't seen Tim struggling making a shot then I do not know what you were watching(?)

Ofcoure Tim did a great job cause he is one of the greats and he ialwayes plays better as the playoffs continues.

[leemajors]

larry brown browbeats his players, and eventually that makes them come together - usually in a dislike for him. it makes his players a team, and then they get more successful from then on. he has improved every franchise he has been with, and from what i have heard even from players who disliked him when he was there, they did learn a hell of a lot from him. flip's manner and demeanor is almost opposite of this, and that is the only way i would call him "soft". that's really a bad word, i don't know how you can be a soft coach...

[Brutalis]

If this a Owned thread... :rolleyes

41.8 I think ? And a major problem inside. If you haven't seen Tim struggling making a shot then I do not know what you were watching(?)

Ofcoure Tim did a great job cause he is one of the greats and he ialwayes plays better as the playoffs continues.
Tim Duncan is clutch. How many times does he prove that each year? Forget about Fishers shot that shouldn't have counted on a time delayed replay, who sunk the shot to cream the Lakers? The Magic on several occassions? Not to mention many more.

Don't be a dumbass like that FreshPrince prick. Duncan owned Sheed as well as the Pistons when it mattered the most.

[himat]

Tim Duncan is clutch. How many times does he prove that each year? Forget about Fishers shot that shouldn't have counted on a time delayed replay, who sunk the shot to cream the Lakers? The Magic on several occassions? Not to mention many more.

Don't be a dumbass like that FreshPrince prick. Duncan owned Sheed as well as the Pistons when it mattered the most.

rasheed wallace will own duncan and the spurs this year.

[sickdsm]

To the original post:

orced to trade Marbury and not resign Gugliotta in 98-99 because of the huge contract McHale gave KG (6 years, $126 million)


Googs left for Phoenix becuase he didn't get along with Marbury. That and his wife was a triathlete or some thing like that and she wanted to be able to train year round outside.


Too bad Marbury turned into a bitch the year after anyway.


As for FLip, not much worth saying that I didn't say preseason. Anything short of a banner this year is a complete failure for ANY coach of the Pistons. Same with the Spurs, heat, etc...... 7 games, .4, injuries all mean shit when its done. The reason the saying about Flip is that he overachieved and not that he made players better is the playoffs. Coaching matters more in the postseason than at anyother time, not for the plays and TO's but for to focus the troops. As a Piston fan, what would really make me do a double take right not is the quotes Flip had about a week ago. Something very much along the lines of this:

"any idiot can coach defense. All you have to do is yell at the guys to get them to play harder"

Basically pimping himself on offense, which i've always agreeded with but typicall flip and throwing defense out the window.

[sickdsm]

This was a tremendous and well-thought post.

I believe that previous experience is overrated in terms of coaches. For instance, Rick Carlisle had no previous coaching experience when he took the Pistons to the second round. Chuck Daly had a 30 games or so coaching a bad Cleveland Cavaliers team before he came to the Pistons. Coaching is evaluated in a very relative way: Did the team and the players perform at or exceeding their potential?

But if we are going to talk about his record, it's not that bad. The last time that Flip Saunders had a number one seed in his conference, with a team as deep as the Pistons on both ends of the court, he guided his team to game six of the Western Conference Finals. He won two games in that series despite the team's most experienced leader, Sam Cassell, hobbling around the court.

The one thing that Saunders has shown the ability to do, and it's critical in late-game situations in the playoffs, is make adjustments to what the defense is providing. This team has very few bad nights in terms of shooting because Saunders has learned to take the poor shooters out of games. Rip Hamilton has had a few bad nights this season - most notably in the loss to the Wizards and the win against the Bulls in Chicago - and Saunders has had no problem pulling those players in favor of the bench.

I'll point this out - with the Wolves down 1-0 to the Spurs in the first round of the 1999 playoffs, Minnesota rebounded to do what only 4 other teams (of 25) had done all year - win in the Alamodome against the eventual Champions (80-71, Game two WCQF).

The LA Lakers were down eight points with less than two minutes left in the third period of game five of their 2003 playoff series. The Wolves were four minutes and fourty seconds away from having the Defending Champions down 3-1 in the first round. They lost that game, 102-97, to which KG commented "Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn."

He's had two series - 2003 and 2004 - when his team has had home-court advantage. He's only had one division title, and a truly underrated issue with his coaching - Stephon Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Chauncey Billups, Tom Gugliotta, Joe Smith (CBA violations), Gary Trent, Felipe Lopez, Felton Spencer, JR Rider, Christian Laettner, Tom Hammonds, Cherokee Parks, Dean Garrett, Andrew Lang, Malik Sealy (death), Terry Porter, Rasho Nesterovic - all of these players had success under Flip Saunders, and the majority of them left the team. There hasn't been a consistent core of players in his locker room his entire coaching career. That makes it very hard to judge what he will do with a group of guys that have talent, experience together, and chemistry.

Only time will answer this question, however, I have no problems seeing him on the bench in a late-round, late-game situation. Much was made about the fact Rick Carlisle "out-coached" Larry Brown in the 2003 Eastern Conference Semifinals when Carlisle's Pistons beat Brown's Sixers. When the two coaches with new teams matched up in both the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals and the 2005 Eastern Conference Semis, Brown walked away victorious on both occasions.

Much was made about Brown, for as good a coach as he is, only getting to the NBA Finals once, and never winning a Championship. How was he going to teach the Pistons how to win that big game when he couldn't close out the Lakers in 2001; how could he do it in 2004? He couldn't win against New York or Orlando when he was with Indiana. The man brought a Championship to Detroit and took the other Pistons team he coached to game seven of the NBA Finals.

Does that guarantee success for Flip Saunders? Nothing does except results. But I don't worry about this problem. When evaluating coaching candidates during the Conference Finals last season (LB to Cleveland was the dominant headline after game 3), Flip Saunders was at the top of my list. Phil Jackson was still out there, so was Paul Silas, Maurice Cheeks - and my top coaching candidate was Flip Saunders.

When he got to Minnesota, they had never made the playoffs. He was winning with a bunch of nobodies and wash-ups. He successfully molded KG, the first high schooler in the NBA in 25 years, into an all-world talent. Listing that as an accomplishment, he's got a lot of room with Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant, Rashard Lewis and Nate McMillan, etc. But Saunders was the first, a local kid with nothing more than a CBA background. His schemes, although I didn't like the zone, were inventive and affective. And I hated to see my Pistons go against his team because he always, always out-coached the Pistons - it didn't matter who was coaching them.

I went from laughing at the mere mention of the Wolves to cheering for them over his tenure. He's a tremendous basketball mind and he's not a manic personality like Larry Brown or Doug Collins. One of his players says he gives those he's coaching enough rope to hang themselves. Those that don't - like Chauncey Billups when Terrell Brandon encouters knee ailments - become success stories. I've always felt that Brown had too much credit given to him for the development of Chauncey Billups. The truth is in the pudding:

Two years, 4.2 million from Minnesota in the summer of 2000.
Six years, 42 million from the Pistons in the summer of 2002.


Bottom line: Flip Saunders is an excellent coach and I have very little concern for how he will coach in the playoffs.


LMFAO at this tool!!!!
:lol


Do you know anything about Billups/Flip/Brandon? Obviously not. Billups said then like he does now, had Flip Saunders appointed him the starting PG he would have resigned with the wolves. Now before you try to blame McHale or the the peanut vendor, Flip called that shot. A healthy, younger billups or a washed up, hobbled Brandon never to return to his form from that injury. You know what? Fuck you for that rediculous comment. If it wasn't for Flip boycotting Billups when it was obvious to us wolves fans who the starter would be we wouldn't be sitting with DNP-CD Hudson two times in recent games or having Jaric getting 6 mill for 15 minutes.

[sickdsm]

Interesting thread. Love the heated discussions. I'll see if I can add a little to it!

In regards to Flip and his history, I've always felt that he's kinda gotten a raw deal. People love to talk about Flip's playoff record, and how often he failed to get out of the first round. I think he unduly takes too much of the blame. The fact is, that his teams were supposed to lose those first round series. Every year (I'm going off of memory, and not stats, so someone may be able to correct me about possibly one or two years) his Twolves faced a superior opponent. The lone exception, was 2003-2004 in which he went to the WCF. Of course you'd like a team to occasionally beat the odds and win in an upset, but IMO the way NBA playoffs are setup, the better team almost always wins. That's why I love the 5 and 7 game series as opposed to a "one and done" as in the NFL. The better team is supposed to win. And quite frankly, the Twolves were not the better team.

I personally lay more of the blame on Garnett. I lay blame on the lower quality of supporting casts (not all years...but some years). I blame McHale for being a poor GM. The Joe Smith fiasco. The drafting and trading of Starbury. I blame the lack of chemistry. It always seemed that they had 2 new starters every year. Look at how many different players the T-Wolves had in the last 10 years. It's amazing how many players have come and gone. The team never seemed to have alot of consistency, due to injury or attitude, year in, year out. Perhaps some of that is excuse making, but IMO they are all factors that led to them not being great playoff teams.

I clearly remember everyone dogging Garnett for not putting the team on his shoulders. Not wanting the ball when it counted. I am a HUGE Garnett supporter. He is my second favorite player after Billups. But I have to say that as a super star player who had an obscene contract, he was supposed to get it done. I don't know how much of that you can really put on his coach. Much like we've seen from Lebron this year recently, he wimped out when the pressure was on.

People talk about Flip and his lack of defense. I may agree with some of those arguments. I am not a fan of the zone. Flip obviously believes in it. I think there are times when it can be a benefit, if for nothing else than to offer a different look. I question though, based on the players he had, would a different scheme really have mattered much? I don't know. The origional poster made a statement that Flip didn't install the zone in Detroit, but in fact he has. You don't see it alot. The players are still learning it. The players are so confident in their man D skills. But each week, we see more and more of it being used..... at times. I think at the end of the day, incorporating it, will help us.

While I say Flip has taken too much blame through the years, I also think he is getting a little too much credit this year. (And I believe he'd be the first person to agree w/ me) The bottom line is that the Pistons are a Championship tested and proven team. The trust, chemistry and skills were already there. Sure, Flip has opened up the offense, but these guys already know how to play. They already know how to win. They are truly driven this year. The loss to the Spurs hurt. All of the credit/love that LB received hurt. They do want to prove that THEY are the reason for their success, and not their coach.

Before the season started, all I heard was how much the Pistons would struggle. Their defensive intensity would not be the same. Flip was going to screw up our chemistry.

People say that Flip adopted a great team, making him look good. The exact same can be said about LB. Our D didn't come from LB. If anything, Carlisle deserves soooo much more credit than he will ever receive. He brought the D to the "D". LB simply adopted a great team. IMO Carlisle would also have also won the Championship if he was still our boss man. LB had never won anyhting in the NBA till he came to Detroit. The players won the ring/belt!! not LB. Likewise, this year, the players are responsible for their success, not the coach.

I love how Flip has allowed the players to play this year. I think many Piston fans got frustrated w/ the LB era. We knew that the players had more offensive ability. We hated the scoring slumps. Flip has simply let them do their thing. Offensively, Rip and Chauncey are showing what they've always had the ability to do. It's definetly a much more fun team to watch.

The biggest thing that Flip has brought to the Pistons is the chance for the bench players to play through mistakes. Arroyo and Delfino now can play without looking over their shoulders if they make an error. I've found it interesting to watch the bench development this year. Delfino has SKILLS. Arroyo, at times, is one of the best passers in the game. Evans has been a pleasant suprise. The problem is, that they don't neccesarily play well together.

Early in the year, Flip would sit all the starters, and insert all the bench players late in games. Now, he tries to play the bench players in conjustion with the starters. Delfino has especially flourished due to this. Arroyo..........quite often, sucks. In a fast break, he can make an unbleievable no-look pass. In a half court, he dribbles out the clock. Flip recognized this, and has tended to play Evans and Delfino alongside Chauncey. He is better able to create for these guys allowing them to develop better tendencies and skills. Likewise, he has played Arroyo more often w/ Rip. With Rips' constant movement, it has allowed Arroyo to function better in a half court setting.(playing the bench more w/ the starters has also led to more minutes per game for the starters)

Again I say, Flip's biggest influence to our team has been bench development. And it will pay huge dividends as the season delves into the playoffs. And I cannot wait for Hunter to return!!! We will consistently go 10 dep....something that was unheard of under LB.

Basically, Flip has been a nice change of pace for the Pistons. We needed to flex our offense muscle a little. He's given us that opportunity. Wheteher it be with Flip or LB or Carlisle, we still have 5 great players. We have 5 players that know how to win. They are tested. They are hungry. Flip will not neccesarily win or lose any games for us this year. If we are lucky enough to make the Finals, it will not be because of Flip. If we lose in the Finals, I do not think we will have Flip to blame.

In contrast to that, I personally do blame LB for our loss in game 7. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, LB's decision to sit Sheed and Dice, and allow Prince to (attempt to) guard TD cost us the game. Yes, Sheed fucked up in game 5. But game 7 is where you give your everything. There are no second chances. In that instance, LB screwed us.

To answer the basic question of the thread, I do not think Flip will really have any serious impact on how the Pistons do in the playoffs. If anything, I'll say it will be a positive in that the atmosphere is better. The difference is having between a "players coach" and a hard ass. IMO younger untested players tend to need the hard ass, whereas the veteran players do better w/ a players coach who allows the players to be themselves and do their thing. Give me Flip over LB any day.

Alot has been mentioned about minutes played. I personally do not remember Piston fans moaning about fatigue due to the minutes played by our players. Much like FP22 stated, I recall alot of concern due to how many "playoff" minutes the guys had to play..in particular Tay and Ben. But that had more to do w/ 6 and 7 game series as opposed to regular season minutes. I might have simply ignored it, as it sounds too much like excuse making to me. I don't know. So I cannot answer for those people. I will say though that I have no qualms with our starters getting 35-38 minutes a game.

If you look at any team in the league, you will find their "star" player or players getting 35+ minutes every game. Detroit is different from many teams in that it has 5 pseudo stars as their starters. All 5 guys rank consistently as being in the top 6 at their respective positions. You'd typically expect a top 6 player at any position to play 35+minutes. Teams like the Spurs,Nets,Warriors,Dallas,Suns,Heat,Cavs,Bucks may be able to boast 3 such players, but I cannot name a single team other than Detroit that has more than 3 players that should get those type of minutes.

FLip had complete player control. He's M.O. is supposed to be PG's. WHo do you think called the shots on the Ray allen (yes, we did draft ray allen and dealt him away for Flips pet project) deal? Why was he unable to find a healthy backup PG if thats what he does for a whole year during the WCF run?

Last question, what players did Flip succesfully develop? I've ALWAYS said, Flip finds cubic zirconiums in the rough. Guys that do just enough to raise your eyebrow but never reach that plateau. whether it be billups with the wolves, hudson, Ellis, peeler..........


Not really that many in that long span. You dream of 10 deep roattions? One of flips shortcomings actually, playoffs are about shortened rosters. Flip doen'st really shorten them up during the playoffs. In fact he had a set schedule when players go in and out of the lineup. Wally's lighting it up? Too bad, time for his rest.

[polandprzem]

Tim Duncan is clutch. How many times does he prove that each year? Forget about Fishers shot that shouldn't have counted on a time delayed replay, who sunk the shot to cream the Lakers? The Magic on several occassions? Not to mention many more.

Don't be a dumbass like that FreshPrince prick. Duncan owned Sheed as well as the Pistons when it mattered the most.


hehe you are a funny guy Brutalis :lol

Making an argument about Timmys clutchness should not be mentined by you. But as for many fans here on the board. You don't make a right arguments. You just make any... and thats just wrong man. Retarded :rolleyes

[Darrin]

Fuck you for that rediculous comment. If it wasn't for Flip boycotting Billups when it was obvious to us wolves fans who the starter would be we wouldn't be sitting with DNP-CD Hudson two times in recent games or having Jaric getting 6 mill for 15 minutes.

Chill, dude. First, the word is "ridiculous." Second, did I ever say that Flip Saunders wasn't in on the decision? I said that Kevin McHale hasn't kept his team's together. Was it Flip Saunders that came up with a contract extension for Latrell Sprewell? Was it Flip Saunders that traded away Stephon Marbury? I love Kevin McHale the player, but I he hasn't been putting the Wolves in a position to succeed long-term.

As for the the Billups decision:




Friendship frayed

Kevin McHale , the Timberwolves' vice president for basketball, is apparently seething over comments he thinks Saunders made when the Pistons were in Minnesota last week.

"The one that got to me was Flip claiming he wasn't involved in the decision not to bring back Chauncey Billups -- that Chauncey only left because (owner) Glen Taylor wouldn't pay him," McHale told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. "That is absolute BS. I know because there were three people on the conference call when the decision was made: Glen, Flip and me.

"Glen said, 'Flip, if we give Chauncey a $36 million contract, can you get him 24 minutes a game?' And Flip said, 'I can guarantee 15, maybe 18, but with Terrell (Brandon) coming back, that's it.' "

Saunders said that he never tried to pass the buck on that decision, and that's what McHale said about not guaranteeing minutes for Billups was exactly right.

"That's what I have always said," Saunders said. "I am not washing my hands of anything. I was there. We had a player who at that time was the third best point guard in the league (Brandon) and we were paying him over $10 million, and Chauncey didn't want to be a shooting guard. I couldn't guarantee Chauncey minutes.

"I told Chauncey that I would give him a chance to win the job in training camp, but Chauncey went a different rout."

McHale and Saunders were teammates at the University of Minnesota and it was McHale that gave Saunders his first NBA coaching job, straight out of the CBA. Saunders was initially hurt and embittered when McHale fired him in the middle of last season, but the two had apparently patched up their differences.

Maybe not.

"Flip was handed the keys to a Mercedes," McHale said of Saunders' new job with the Pistons. "He should be the happiest man in basketball.

Obvious to the Fans? Did you have medical reports on Terrell Brandon's knee?

[Darrin]

Not really that many in that long span. You dream of 10 deep roattions? One of flips shortcomings actually, playoffs are about shortened rosters. Flip doen'st really shorten them up during the playoffs. In fact he had a set schedule when players go in and out of the lineup. Wally's lighting it up? Too bad, time for his rest.

I remember a certain Lakers series where KG, Wally, Trent, Hudson, Strickland, Peeler, Rasho, Gill, Joe Smith, and Marc Jackson - 8-9 of those guys would play over 10 minutes a game.

[leemajors]

i thought marc jackson came after rasho.

[sickdsm]

Chill, dude. First, the word is "ridiculous." Second, did I ever say that Flip Saunders wasn't in on the decision? I said that Kevin McHale hasn't kept his team's together. Was it Flip Saunders that came up with a contract extension for Latrell Sprewell? Was it Flip Saunders that traded away Stephon Marbury? I love Kevin McHale the player, but I he hasn't been putting the Wolves in a position to succeed long-term.

As for the the Billups decision:



Obvious to the Fans? Did you have medical reports on Terrell Brandon's knee?
Billups played better than Brandon did when he was healthy. Not only that but when you have that much of a major injury at that age things don't look that good. 31 years old, and a career ending injury on 2-4-02. One day short of four years ago to the day against the spurs. 32 games that year. 6 years older than Billups who certainly produced when he was starting.

Are yo uthat stupid that you need a medical report to figure that out? Serioulsy, reread some of the facts right there. Your vouching for the guy that made the call to send Billups on his way. Do yo need a medical report to choose between a 57 year old Rodman or Chris Bosh starting at a power forward position?


You do realize that in your other post i was pointing out the deap rotations as a hinderance, not a benefit, right? BC most people realize that.

[sickdsm]

i thought marc jackson came after rasho.

No, Marc was acquiered by swapping Dean Garret to the warriors then traded to Philly in the sprewell deal

[Brutalis]

hehe you are a funny guy Brutalis :lol

Making an argument about Timmys clutchness should not be mentined by you. But as for many fans here on the board. You don't make a right arguments. You just make any... and thats just wrong man. Retarded :rolleyes
If you can't come up with anything don't blame me kiddo.

[Tanya]

Aren't we talking about Pistons and Flip saunders? Why someone started to blame Flip for sending Billups out of Timberwolves few years ago? As everyone can see, the pistons are not gonna make a change this year, maybe Joe will just add some power to the bench if he can. So can someone please stop talking Timberwolves and Flips Saunders?

[leemajors]

a twolves fan stepped in because he is very well acquainted with flip as a coach. i think he has some valid points to make about flip as a coach, it has a lot to do with flip saunders

[polandprzem]

If you can't come up with anything don't blame me kiddo.
I don't blame you kiddo :rolleyes

And with what I must came up?

Rashed was making a good job agains TD most of the time during their careers and Tim had a problem making a shots and mostly because of Sheed.

I do not have to come up with something. You do.

But if you got just lame arguments just :flipoff of this thread.
Seeya smowhere else.

[FreshPrince22]

FLip had complete player control. He's M.O. is supposed to be PG's. WHo do you think called the shots on the Ray allen (yes, we did draft ray allen and dealt him away for Flips pet project) deal? Why was he unable to find a healthy backup PG if thats what he does for a whole year during the WCF run?


This is a pointless discussion. Joe Dumars is the best GM in basketball. He has complete player control. He is not going to make a stupid move just because someone tells him to. In Detroit, Flip has a competent GM, who can actually do his job, and let Flip worry about the X's and O's.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Tim Duncan is clutch. How many times does he prove that each year? Forget about Fishers shot that shouldn't have counted on a time delayed replay, who sunk the shot to cream the Lakers? The Magic on several occassions? Not to mention many more.

Don't be a dumbass like that FreshPrince prick. Duncan owned Sheed as well as the Pistons when it mattered the most.

Game 7 = 37% = OWNNNNAGE

/thread

moot...

Personal attack in:

3

2

1...

[Darrin]

Game 7 = 37% = OWNNNNAGE



No personal attack from this side of the aisle.

Fact: 7-9 in the fourth quarter. Duncan, at one point, shot 3-16. He finished with 10-27. He killed the Pistons in the fourth, and that's where they lost the game.

[conqueso]

This is a pointless discussion. Joe Dumars is the best GM in basketball. He has complete player control. He is not going to make a stupid move just because someone tells him to. In Detroit, Flip has a competent GM, who can actually do his job, and let Flip worry about the X's and O's.

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less. Not taking anything away from Dumars, he's awesome, but Buford and Pop have made the best draft picks of any team over the last 8 years, and the '97, '99, and '01 drafts might have been the greatest three draft picks in 6 years of any team, all time. Dumars can't match that success.

And Darrin...it was Manu that really killed the Pistons in Game 7. Having watched that game over and over again, Tim's 3rd quarter wasn't nearly as dominant as the announcers/media made it out to be, and Manu was truly fantastic in the fourth...I've got a play-by-play log of the the second half of that game somewhere in the archives, and I'll look for it if you want it just in case you didn't save-'til-I-delete on TiVo. It's pretty clear after a few viewings that Manu was the unsung hero of that series, and got shafted on the Finals MVP, but you know, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Darrin]

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less. Not taking anything away from Dumars, he's awesome, but Buford and Pop have made the best draft picks of any team over the last 8 years, and the '97, '99, and '01 drafts might have been the greatest three draft picks in 6 years of any team, all time. Dumars can't match that success.

I know there's no one who's going to give up this debate over RC Buford and Joe Dumars, but I have to disagree on the "less with more" debate. The Pistons haven't lost 60 games under Dumars that allowed the bounce of the balls to land the land the premiere big man of his generation. He didn't have that as a selling point for free agents like Brent Barry, Rasho Nesterovic, Michael Finley, and Nick Van Exel.

When Dumars took his job, he didn't have a face to his organization like David Robinson. Two years in, after establishing Jerry Stackhouse as that face, he was shipped to Washington for a little-known Richard Hamilton.

The Pistons averaged 14,000 filled seats at the Palace in 2000-01. Since 2002-03, they have led the league in attendance every season; 108 consecutive sellouts, the longest streak since 1988-1992. He's made the Pistons relevant again.

Buford didn't have a body blow like Grant Hill leaving a month into being on the job. He didn't pluck Rick Carlisle out of the broadcast booth to win two division titles and make a trip to the Conference Finals.

Each of the Pistons last two coaches have been the most successful in their rookie season:

Larry Brown - 54-32, 2003-04 (First rookie coach to win a playoff series).
Rick Carlisle - 50-32, 2001-02 (First rookie coach to win an NBA title).
Chuck Daly - 49-33, 1983-84.

Flip Saunders is on record to shatter this record (.866 winning percentage, a 71-win pace over the course of a season).

Dumars late-round draft record:
Brian Cardinal (44th in 2000)
Mehmet Okur (38th in 2001)
Tayshaun Prince (23rd in 2002)
Carlos Delfino (25th in 2003)
And a couple of names you will be hearing in the future:
Jason Maxiell (26th in 2005)
Amir Johnson (56th in 2005)

Joe Dumars signed the 2004 Finals MVP, and reigning Player of the Month Chauncey Billups to a Mid-Level exception contract. Bruce Bowen is making more money than Chauncey.

Look at the leap of faith:

June 1997 - February 1998: Boston Celtics - 51 games, 11.1 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.51 spg. Traded for Kenny Anderson.

February 1998 - January 1999: Toronto Raptors - 29 games, 11.3 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 1.03 spg. Traded for Zeljko Rebraca.

January 1999 - February 2000: Denver Nuggets - 58 games, 12.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.17 spg.

February 2000 - August 2000: Orlando Magic - 0 games, injured in Denver before traded. Signed as Free Agent.

August 2000 - July 2002: Minnesota Timberwolves - 159 games, 10.9 ppg, 4.7 apg, 2.4 rpg, .73 spg. Signed as Free Agent.

July 2002 - Present: Detroit Pistons - 276 games, 16.9 ppg, 5.7 apg, 3.5 rpg,
.93 spg.


Joe Dumars turned Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and Chucky Atkins into Rasheed Wallace. Joe Dumars turned John Wallace and Jud Buechler in Cliff Robinson.

The Pistons have posted a (279-176) .624 winning percentage (one losing season) in the last five and a half seasons, four trips to the playoffs (43-32), three division titles, three trips to the Conference Finals, two trips to the NBA Finals, and an NBA Championship.

The Pistons posted a (236-224) .513 winning percentage (two losing seasons) in the six seasons before Joe Dumars became GM. Four trips to the playoffs (4-12), no division titles, no advancement past the first round.

The Pistons have won Coach of the Year (2001-02, first since 1973-74), Sixth Man of the Year (2001-02, first in history of franchise), and Defensive Player of the Year (2001-02, 2002-03, 2004-05, first since 1990-91), all personnel Joe Dumars hired. Dumars was recognized as the 2002-03 General Manger of the Year.

Before Joe Dumars, no foreign born players had ever played for the Detroit Pistons. Dumars hired Tony Ranzone, the Dallas Mavericks former foreign scout of the Dallas Mavericks. Zeljko Rebraca, Rakto Varda, Pepe Sanchez, Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Carlos Arroyo, and Darko Milicic have all logged minutes for the Pistons under Dumars.

The Pistons hadn't played in summer league competition since 1991-92 when Dumars took over, a 10-year absence.

Say that RC Buford was revolutionary in terms of scouting the world stage, say he's a GM who's been able to negotiate with David Robinson to Bruce Bowen to take less than their market value. But the one area where Dumars smokes his competition is in the "less is more" department, and in taking chances.

When Dumars took this job, he was introduced with George Irvine because no one else wanted to to coach the Pistons. Grant Hill wasn't willing to give Dumars even a year to figure out if he could do it. Dumars then took a revolutionary approach to building a Championship team - a balance between all positions.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I know there's no one who's going to give up this debate over RC Buford and Joe Dumars, but I have to disagree on the "less with more" debate. The Pistons haven't lost 60 games under Dumars that allowed the bounce of the balls to land the land the premiere big man of his generation. He didn't have that as a selling point for free agents like Brent Barry, Rasho Nesterovic, Michael Finley, and Nick Van Exel.

When Dumars took his job, he didn't have a face to his organization like David Robinson. Two years in, after establishing Jerry Stackhouse as that face, he was shipped to Washington for a little-known Richard Hamilton.

The Pistons averaged 14,000 filled seats at the Palace in 2000-01. Since 2002-03, they have led the league in attendance every season; 108 consecutive sellouts, the longest streak since 1988-1992. He's made the Pistons relevant again.

Buford didn't have a body blow like Grant Hill leaving a month into being on the job. He didn't pluck Rick Carlisle out of the broadcast booth to win two division titles and make a trip to the Conference Finals.

Each of the Pistons last two coaches have been the most successful in their rookie season:

Larry Brown - 54-32, 2003-04.
Rick Carlisle - 50-32, 2001-02.
Chuck Daly - 49-33, 1983-84.

Flip Saunders is on record to shatter this record (.866 winning percentage, a 71-win pace over the course of a season).

Dumars late-round draft record:
Brian Cardinal (44th in 2000)
Mehmet Okur (38th in 2001)
Tayshaun Prince (23rd in 2002)
Carlos Delfino (25th in 2003)
And a couple of names you will be hearing in the future:
Jason Maxiell (26th in 2005)
Amir Johnson (56th in 2005)

Joe Dumars signed the 2004 Finals MVP, and reigning Player of the Month Chauncey Billups to a Mid-Level exception contract. Bruce Bowen is making more money than Chauncey.

Look at the leap of faith:

June 1997 - February 1998: Boston Celtics - 51 games, 11.1 ppg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.51 spg. Traded for Kenny Anderson.

February 1998 - January 1999: Toronto Raptors - 29 games, 11.3 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.7 rpg, 1.03 spg. Traded for Zeljko Rebraca.

January 1999 - February 2000: Denver Nuggets - 58 games, 12.6 ppg, 3.6 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.17 spg.

February 2000 - August 2000: Orlando Magic - 0 games, injured in Denver before traded. Signed as Free Agent.

August 2000 - July 2002: Minnesota Timberwolves - 159 games, 10.9 ppg, 4.7 apg, 2.4 rpg, .73 spg. Signed as Free Agent.

July 2002 - Present: Detroit Pistons - 276 games, 16.9 ppg, 5.7 apg, 3.5 rpg,
.93 spg.


Joe Dumars turned Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, and Chucky Atkins into Rasheed Wallace. Joe Dumars turned John Wallace and Jud Buechler in Cliff Robinson.

The Pistons have posted a (279-176) .624 winning percentage (one losing season) in the last five and a half seasons, four trips to the playoffs (43-32), three division titles, three trips to the Conference Finals, two trips to the NBA Finals, and an NBA Championship.

The Pistons posted a (236-224) .513 winning percentage (two losing seasons) in the six seasons before Joe Dumars became GM. Four trips to the playoffs (4-12), no division titles, no advancement past the first round.

The Pistons have won Coach of the Year (2001-02, first since 1973-74), Sixth Man of the Year (2001-02, first in history of franchise), and Defensive Player of the Year (2001-02, 2002-03, 2004-05, first since 1990-91), all personnel Joe Dumars hired. Dumars was recognized as the 2002-03 General Manger of the Year.

Before Joe Dumars, no foreign born players had ever played for the Detroit Pistons. Dumars hired Tony Ranzone, the Dallas Mavericks former foreign scout of the Dallas Mavericks. Zeljko Rebraca, Rakto Varda, Pepe Sanchez, Mehmet Okur, Carlos Delfino, Carlos Arroyo, and Darko Milicic have all logged minutes for the Pistons under Dumars.

The Pistons hadn't played in summer league competition since 1991-92 when Dumars took over, a 10-year absence.

Say that RC Buford was revolutionary in terms of scouting the world stage, say he's a GM who's been able to negotiate with David Robinson to Bruce Bowen to take less than their market value. But the one area where Dumars smokes his competition is in the "less is more" department, and in taking chances.

When Dumars took this job, he was introduced with George Irvine because no one else wanted to to coach the Pistons. Grant Hill wasn't willing to give Dumars even a year to figure out if he could do it. Dumars then took a revolutionary approach to building a Championship team - a balance between all positions.


(applauds)

and that settles that dispute

good argument

Joe Dumars and RC Buford AKA the "Anti Isiahs"

[Amuseddaysleeper]

First off, believe it or not, as much as I criticize the Spurs at every oppurtunity I get, stepping into Boutons-Sequ territory, I LOVE my spurs. I've been watching them back when I used to live in Saudi Arabia getting up 3-4 in the morning on a schoolnight just so I could watch them live. and after reading all the debates about how flip could fail in the playoffs or how the spurs will "turn it on" in the second half, and how health will play into it (which is a big issue no doubt) but I think everyone is forgetting the biggest factor that will determine the Finals


Motivation


and its ALL in detroit's favor. I mean you guys have to understand, this team has been determined and FOCUSED since DAY 1 of the season at the tip off so they could have HCA and every other advantage when the time comes to step on the court in June. I know a lot of teams use their season as a building block to shape up for the playoffs (obviously) but I don't think the NBA has seen a team this hungry and motivated in years I hear all this talk about Duncan owning Sheed, Parker destroying the Pistons frontcourt, and ummm........I wont name names but I know SOMEONE mentioned a Spurs sweep??? This road trip which is where we're supposed to "come together" and "click on all cylinders" is hogwash so far. I mean lets be realistic. OK, you're playing on the road, its gonna be a lot tougher than playing at home. but to BARELY beat NON Playoff teams by LESS THAN FIVE POINTS is not exactly dominance. Yes there were some games that were back to backs but guess what, GS didnt have Richardson and we barely survived. And I know some of you will say that these "gutsy" (which is a polite way off saying "hanging on to win") games will improve us in close game situations but there is a HUGE difference in a close game w/ GS and Portland and other lottery teams and then playing Detroit. Hell if we cant even dominate the lottery teams how are we even going to get into a SITUATION for a "close" game with Detroit?? I dont care how healthy Duncan is, it'll be a factor, but I promise you he wont "own" anybody. He'll have his good games and then he'll have his god awful games where we'll see the famous "Duncan has gone without a FG in last 26:47 of Play" which we see more and more often. Yeah, he's got PF, which I dont doubt hurts like a bitch, but even if he cures it somehow before the playoffs, Rasheed ALWAYS plays tim hard. If anything Rasheed has a slight edge in the category of being able to defend and block TD"s show almost at will, while being able to shoot OVER TD anytime he wants and nailing it (tho I def. believe TD is the better player, I just think Sheed gives him the toughest matchup in the league, moreso than KG). Duncan's outside game is zilch. his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!". As for Parker dominating the frontcourt of Detroit. Here's what'll happen........Parker will whip off 10 1st quarter points in about 6 minutes at the most. then detroit will pack the lane, knock TP to the ground a bit, and we'll continue to miss from the outside. Yes, 3's were HUGE for us in last year's finals, but frankly, our FG% is bloated due to Parker's amazing in the paint buckets which will decrease by the game when he comes across a monster like Ben Wallace. But forget all these stats and all these other things. I think Detroit simply wants it more. And ESPECIALLY against the Spurs. They arent gonna take any chances and they're gonna finish their business. I mean if we thought Detroit was tough in the regular season wait till the finals come and they get revenge. I know i come off as a closet pistons fan but its hard not to respect what this team is accomplishing. I also hope and pray that the spurs wake up and go on a 16 game win streak just dominating teams left, right, and center but I think we're a LOT further away from where we need to be (which is probably being the greatest spurs team in franchise history in order to beat detroit, yes folks I'm serious, once again the motivation factor is HUGE) I hope I'm wrong and I can look back at this post and laugh like I did when i freaked out prior to game 7 when we got whooped during game 6. But sadly, Detroit just has the heart right now. Which can count for more doubles doubles, 3 pointers, and free throws that could ever matter in a finals game. I dont care about the Mavs, Heat, Suns or anyone else. I do feel confident that we can beat those teams in a 7 game series no problem. But it all comes down to Detroit. They are really the only team that WE should be preparing for. The only guy on our team who will ALWAYS bring it is Manu. If the rest of the team could have 1/10000000000 that this guy does then I'm sure the matchup would be a hell of a lot more even. I mean we're STILL getting our asses handed to us on the boards by weak ass front lines.

So basically what I'm saying is, I dont care what Flip has done in the past, wether he's a choker in the playoffs or an overachiever who never had the right complete team with the right characters till now. I dont even think Flip is gonna matter much to be honest. Its gonna be all on the Pistons players. Flip wasnt there last year, he doesnt know how it felt. If anything he's just along for the ride, giving the Pistons more freedom than they've ever had. He probably wont even say anything much before game 1 except for "Rasheed, please take off your headphones I'm trying to talk" followed by a "whatevs yo whatevs" comment from sheed. All I know is, if the spurs dont just wake up phsycially, but mentally as well, its gonna be a real quick series and if you think otherwise its gonna be a slow month of june for you.


having sad all that the biggest factors for us to have any hope are......

- REBOUNDING....We cant afford to have a -20 rebounding average and expect to win. Start Nazr and have him honestly set a goal of 20 rebounds per game against detroit (which wont happen at all but we need to drill the point home about rebounding)

- Containing Chauncey and Tayshaun.....I think Bruce will do fine on Rip, but Chauncey is a deadly weapon and bruce cant cover both him and rip at the same time. I also think Tayshaun will be a bigger factor in this year's finals as I think LB played tayshaun to little last year. the only guy who can stop tayshaun is TD and td will have his hands full with both wallaces

- Play EVERY second of all 7 games like they are your last. no let downs, no "we're up by 10 lets take some time off" Pop needs to just go all out w/ the trio of manu, td, and tp and add nazr and horry in there for rebounding. I think Finley is a flat out bust like many spurs FA's seem to be. I cringe at the thought of NVE running down the floor 1 on 4 as the pistons get into position with the spurs on their way, and then NVE pulls up for an ill fated 3 that ruins our momentun and cuts our 8-1 run short as the pistons come back to sustain the lead and even expand on it thanks to NVE moronic shot selection.


It's gonna be tough and I just dont see us winning the series. But like I said. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm incredibly pessimistic but barring a major injury from detroit I have a bad feeling its gonna be our turn to ponder a summer of what might have been.

[Darrin]

And Darrin...it was Manu that really killed the Pistons in Game 7. Having watched that game over and over again, Tim's 3rd quarter wasn't nearly as dominant as the announcers/media made it out to be, and Manu was truly fantastic in the fourth...I've got a play-by-play log of the the second half of that game somewhere in the archives, and I'll look for it if you want it just in case you didn't save-'til-I-delete on TiVo. It's pretty clear after a few viewings that Manu was the unsung hero of that series, and got shafted on the Finals MVP, but you know, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Believe what you want. I suggest, if you have the game, watch from the 9:30 mark of the third quarter until the end of the third. Watch how many times Duncan posts, and is denied the ball. See that at 4:01 remaining in the quarter McDyess heads to bench with 4 fouls. Watch Duncan post-up Prince and while trapped by Hamilton, draws and and-1 that pulls the Spurs within one and gets the crowd on its feet with 3:30 left to play in the quarter, and never sits down after that. Watch how Ben Wallace is so preoccupied with the Duncan, that he can no longer help as Ginobili gets all the way to the basket. Watch how on the next offensive possession that Wallace gambles for the tip-back off a bad Lindsey Hunter shot and Duncan easily rebounds with no one to block him out. Watch how Wallace, who doesn't usually leave the paint, allows a clear pass to Duncan at 18 feet, and Duncan nails the shot to give the Spurs the lead.

Watch how the Pistons, with both Hamilton and Billups stop moving the basketball now that McDyess is no longer out there to nail jumpers. Watch how effective the 2-3-2 zone becomes as the Pistons break down into one-on-one play.

Notice how effective the ballhandler handing right corner skip feed to right block becomes. Notice how when Ben Wallace loses Duncan, there is no helpside defense. Notice that once Rasheed comes in, he's not guarding Duncan because of fear he'll pick up another foul, and that means, again, the Pistons best helpside defender can't stop the guard penetration. Then watch the 9:30 possession of the fourth quarter. With Rasheed back on Duncan, no penetration for Ginobili, and Duncan loses the ball out of bounds. Notice how this sends Duncan to the bench.

Now when the Spurs go on their run, they are not doing it with Duncan. They are not doing it with an 8-point deficit. They are doing it with a one-point lead. This game was won in the third quarter.

Duncan was 5-17 with 11 points with 4:01 left in the fourth. Up until that foul, while a spirited contest, I saw nothing to indicate a game-changing run. It was a standard close basketball game run. From that point on, Duncan went for 3-5 from the field, 3-3 from the line with 9 points, and seals Wallace for no helpside defense on a Ginobili lay-in. The game, in that four minutes, went from a 52-46 Pistons lead after the Spurs cut it to two, to a 57-57 game on a last-second jumper by Lindsey Hunter entering the fourth.

[Warlord23]

^^ Good post. Foul trouble reduced the Piston frontcourt's effectiveness. That opened up opportunities not just for Duncan but for Manu's slashing game in that key stretch that saw the Spurs erase the deficit. The Pistons' frontcourt was the biggest problem facing the Spurs through that series, and no doubt will again be the key to any future encounters.

An example of the frontcourt effectiveness was in Detroit's game against Philly yesterday. The Sixers were trying desperately to get back into the game, but they couldn't get the 2 or 3 stops that could have made the difference. When the Pistons did miss, someone tipped an offensive board for a fresh 24. Prince got 3 chances one after the other, and finally made the 3rd one.

This season the Spurs' rebounding has been less than stellar. Apart from Duncan, the Spurs have no-one with the rebounding caliber of Wallace, Wallace, McDyess. I know Horry is taking it easy now and will probably step up a few gears in the postseason, but we really need Nazr and Rasho to improve their rebounding. Nazr is pretty good in rebounds per 48 mins (14.8 is better than everyone on the Spurs and Pistons except Duncan and Ben; Rasho is at 9.5). I hope he figures out the defensive rotations down the stretch run of the regular season.

[SequSpur]

one day i might get to reading this topic but its going to be tough....

anything over 5-6 lines is considered a book for me.

I wonder if their are any good Rasho arguments.

[boutons_]

Spurs weak rebounding isn't Tim's fault, it's not Razr's fault.
It's lack of team rebounding desire and hustle.

Tim is averaging 12 RB, the Spurs 42. That's 30 RBs by non-Tim.

Spurs avg a middle-NBA +1.36 RBs (Pistons only +1.04)

Rebounding is a team effort.

If Tony, Bruce, Manu, Razr could all average just 1 RB more per game, Spurs could be +4 or +5 RBs, best in NBA (Jazz are a +4.68 RB)

[JamStone]

Man, I wanted to respond to this thread a while ago, but all the long posts, I haven't had the motivation to get through them all. I'm sure it's a real great discussion. Maybe I'll read the thread in its entirety later.

But, I do want to make a few comments, to share my OWN LONG POST ... :lol


Flip has a poor playoff record, and I think it should concern Pistons fans. His open style of offense may not be as effective in the post-season when defenses tighten up. But, right now, all we can do is wait for the playoffs and see how things work out. While I think there is some merit for trepidation on how Flip will coach in the post season, I think there is more credence to the notion that the actual players more so than the coaching determines success. I am not saying coaching does not help or does not make a team better. But, I do believe the ultimate credit and/or blame should be largely placed on the players and how they perform. And, while there can be many criticisms of Flip's coaching in the playoffs, the only way to fairly judge him as a playoff coach for the Pistons is to wait and see him coach in the playoffs AS THE PISTONS HEAD COACH.

Pat Riley is not less of a coach because he was not able to win NBA titles in New York or Miami. And, just as fairly, he cannot be held as the main reason the Lakers won those five championships in the 1980s. Phil Jackson is one of the few coaches who has won titles with multiple teams, but having two of the arguably 5 best players in the history of the game doesn't hurt either.

There are some great coaches in the NBA, in all of sports. But, I subscribe to the theory that the players make the coach more often than the coach makes the players. Again, it doesn't mean that the coach never makes players better. I just fully adhere to giving credit mainly to the players who actually perform on the court/field and are primarily responsible for the success.


As for the Pistons fatigue and injury issues ... the topic has been discussed so many times. Yes, if the Pistons lose one of their starters to a major injury, they will not be the same team and will likely not have the success they've had so far. I think that is the same case with every team in the NBA when one of their main players go down. It just so happens that in the Detroit Pistons' case, it is ALL FIVE of their starters. But, same could be said of Dallas if they lose Dirk Nowitzki, Phoenix if they lose Steve Nash (though they have been relatively impressive without Amare), the Clippers without Brand, the Nets without Carter or Kidd. The Spurs have actually been quite impressive with the injury to Manu and a hobbled Duncan. But, even Spurs fans can admit they believe they'd be even better if both were mostly healthy. Same thing goes for the Pistons. If they are mostly healthy, they are a very good team, maybe even great. Without any of their starters, they are less than that. Maybe they could not stay afloat like Phoenix and San Antonio have so far. As a Pistons fan, I hope they don't have to find out how they would cope without one of their starters.

And, as for fatigue, I'm sure at some point in the season, one or several of the starters will feel the effects of fatigue. Ben Wallace has already had a handful of games (mostly on back-to-back second games) where his legs were just not there. I think one could argue that any NBA starters who plays 35+ minutes per game and plays all their team's regular season games will feel the effects of fatigue at some point. And, players like LeBron, Kobe, Iverson all play close to or over 40 minutes a game. Those championship teams have to deal with it. That's the rigors of the NBA season. Of course they'll feel fatigue. It is those teams whose players feel that fatigue but are still able to perform and execute who will ultimately be champions. All teams that make it deep in the playoffs are banged up, bruised, and tired. To think that the Pistons will be more so just because all five of their starters log a good amount of minutes is really reaching for something. With those heavy minutes, they also share the burden of scoring and defense. While a player like Paul Pierce faces double and triple teams every possession, or a player like Allen Iverson or Dwyane Wade gets knocked to the floor a dozen or so times in a game, the Pistons players often find themselves not being double teamed, and there are games in which any one of the players carries the burden of scoring or the majority of defensive responsbility. In that way, much of the pressures that lead to fatigue are diminished by the style of play. Take that into consideration. Realize that even though Duncan plays a little fewer minutes than most of the Pistons players, he gets triple teamed and hacked much more than any of them. Same with Manu. Iverson in 60 games at over 40 minutes a game will play less minutes overall than Chauncey or Rip, but I guarantee you that he is still more beat up and will be much more likely to feel the effects of fatigue. Same with LeBron. The fact that five players are almost equally responsible to contribute at both ends of the floor in a way helps with what some people claim will make the starters so fatigued. There is no reliance on one or two players night in and night out. Chauncey might score 35 points one night and score 7 points the next. Tayshaun might be held to single digit scoring and get a couple of rebounds and asists one night, then flirt with a triple double the next. It goes the same with Rip and Rasheed. When they might not have their best game or for some reason are not playing well, the team still has a chance to win. Fatigue is a very subjective barometer, especially for each individual athlete. Ben and Rip may not feel the same effects in the same amount of minutes as say Quentin Richardson and Eddy Curry. Maybe they are better conditioned to take the large amount of minutes over the course of the season. Something to think about.

[polandprzem]

All I can say is that we have great Detroit fans on this board.
Now it more looks like the real forum (like I am on the polish one with the post no just in one or two lines)
:tu

[FreshPrince22]

Just one thing...R.C. Buford is actually the best G.M. in basketball. He's done more with less.

More with less? The guy took over a team with the best player in the league (Tim Duncan), already on the team. Joe Dumars, on the other hand, has completely reconstructed this team. The only guy that is still here from 5 years ago when Dumars started is Lindsey Hunter. And even he was traded during that period, and resigned later. Every Free Agent deal/trade turns into gold. Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, McDyess, etc. Hell, he's got Ben Wallace and Chauncey on MLE deals. That's just ridiculous. Both are playing like Max money players right now.

[leemajors]

i think he meant they do more with less draft picks, besides duncan they haven't had a high draft pick in a while. they have drafted pretty well in the late first round and second round

[himat]

Who Gives a Shit?

The Spurs won it. They blew the Pistons out in Game 1 and 2. Got blown in Game 3 and 4.

Horry won Game 5. Pistons kicked ass in Game 6.

Pistons kicked ass for 46 minutes in Game 7. Spurs kicked ass in the 47th and 48th minute.

Spurs won. It was a very good final series. Hopefully it will happen again, but I am guessing that Hollywood Parker is going to destroy your front court and you all will be crying again.

Spurs in 4.

you got to be kidding. i know you know neither team will sweep you would never say that if you had to put money on it.

[himat]

No personal attack from this side of the aisle.

Fact: 7-9 in the fourth quarter. Duncan, at one point, shot 3-16. He finished with 10-27. He killed the Pistons in the fourth, and that's where they lost the game.

i don't know what lb was thinking. did he think he could get away with putting prince on duncan. it gets me angry because going in to the 4th dice and sheed both had 2 fouls to give. tay is a great defender, but he isn't an interior defender.

[sickdsm]

This is a pointless discussion. Joe Dumars is the best GM in basketball. He has complete player control. He is not going to make a stupid move just because someone tells him to. In Detroit, Flip has a competent GM, who can actually do his job, and let Flip worry about the X's and O's.
Not really, its VERY valid. Lets suddenly imagine that Popovich the GM consistanly brought in PGs that were gunners. Troy Hudson, Eddie house type players to run the pt and sent passing pgs on there way. When popovich takes over the reigns as coach do you suddenly think he's going to change his beliefs and style? Fact is fact, becase of Flips stlye of play and what he wants to do we said goodbye to our two toughest pgs in history in Bobby Jackson and Billups.

Pistons Identity is slowly changing from Defense to a really fun team to watch. Changing coaches will change the philospy from "what size ring do you wear to wait till next regular season" Think about it, no team in their right mind that revolves around defense would want to shoot more threes then absolute neccesary. Long shots=long rebounds=fast break opportunities. The key to defensive teams is to get the D set up in a halfcourt offense. ESPECIALLY don't have your PF shooting any bc rebounding is key to defense. Face this too, your backcourt may be the key to your offense, but the wallaces are getting old and your whole team has been blessed lack of major injuries for a while now. As much of a boon it is to have a great offense, it DOES lead to more activity than in prior years for chances of injuries

This is a one shot chance for Flip to redeem himself or he forever turns into Henry Winkler the coach from Waterboy but without any Adam Sandler's to bring him out of his rut IMO.

[polandprzem]

Darko was a great move

[Obstructed_View]

Darko was a great move
He wins GM of the decade for that one. Spurs in 5.

[FreshPrince22]

Not really, its VERY valid. Lets suddenly imagine that Popovich the GM consistanly brought in PGs that were gunners. Troy Hudson, Eddie house type players to run the pt and sent passing pgs on there way. When popovich takes over the reigns as coach do you suddenly think he's going to change his beliefs and style? Fact is fact, becase of Flips stlye of play and what he wants to do we said goodbye to our two toughest pgs in history in Bobby Jackson and Billups.

At what point before this year was Chauncey Billups a "passing PG"?? The guy has been a "gunner" untill this year.



Pistons Identity is slowly changing from Defense to a really fun team to watch.

A team can't be fun to watch and play defense? That's news to me. They're just a defensive team that can score now. They're giving up a whopping 0.5 more points per game. And even that number is off because the Pistons are involved in so much garbage time where D gets soft.



Changing coaches will change the philospy from "what size ring do you wear to wait till next regular season"

You clearly don't know this team. Their entire focus of the regular season is to get HCA, because that's what cost them back-to-back rings last year.



Think about it, no team in their right mind that revolves around defense would want to shoot more threes then absolute neccesary. Long shots=long rebounds=fast break opportunities. The key to defensive teams is to get the D set up in a halfcourt offense. ESPECIALLY don't have your PF shooting any bc rebounding is key to defense.

Rasheed shot about 250 threes each of the last 2 years under Larry Brown. How come it's fine under him, but not under Flip? Because LB's some sort of genius, right? :rolleyes



Face this too, your backcourt may be the key to your offense, but the wallaces are getting old and your whole team has been blessed lack of major injuries for a while now. As much of a boon it is to have a great offense, it DOES lead to more activity than in prior years for chances of injuries

The Pistons also have the best strength and conditioning coaches in the league (Arnie Kander, Mike Abdenour). Ask around, players will pretty consistantly say those are the best guys in the league. Arnie Kander in particular. Injuries happen. If they happen to this team, it won't be because of the "new offense". If anything, our chances of injury are down with this offense because they aren't breaking off plays anymore. They're executing much better. And you can call Ben and Sheed "old" all you want, but you should look at the minutes. Neither of them have played even close to the career minutes of KG. It's a lot more about the miles on the body than the age. Not only is Big Ben in the best shape in the league, he also has fairly light miles on his body due to not playing starter minutes untill he became a Piston.



This is a one shot chance for Flip to redeem himself or he forever turns into Henry Winkler the coach from Waterboy but without any Adam Sandler's to bring him out of his rut IMO.

uh.... ok?

[FreshPrince22]

Darko was a great move

Darko has a ring, doesn't he? :lol

[polandprzem]

Darko has a ring, doesn't he? :lol

yup - he was fantastic.

[leemajors]

lb took the clip to the playoffs, that = genius

[5ToolMan]

More with less? The guy took over a team with the best player in the league (Tim Duncan), already on the team. Joe Dumars, on the other hand, has completely reconstructed this team. The only guy that is still here from 5 years ago when Dumars started is Lindsey Hunter. And even he was traded during that period, and resigned later. Every Free Agent deal/trade turns into gold. Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, McDyess, etc. Hell, he's got Ben Wallace and Chauncey on MLE deals. That's just ridiculous. Both are playing like Max money players right now.

You should give RC more credit for his work in developing the Spurs as the most effective scout in the NBA since 1994. He is the one who put the Spurs light years ahead of the NBA in evaluating NBA quality talent throughout the World.

RC was quickly promoted to director of scouting, then to GM in 2002, then to Vice President of Basketball and GM in 2004 because of his great contributions at all levels. Not only are Manu and Parker perhaps two of the best steals in NBA Draft History, RC and the Spurs have 4 or 5 players stashed on the farm in Europe that would now be lottery picks.

[clingman]

The Suns thought they could win shooting threes against the Spurs, too.

you can't beat the spurs by hitting 3's.... like the suns

you can't beat the spurs by NEVER taking 3's.... like the pistons

Detroit is much better balanced this year, thus making the spurs have to play a more balanced defense then they had to last year. That should help detroit this year. time will tell

[clingman]

He's saying Sheed can't guard Duncan when it counts. Oh say, last 5 mins of a finals game perhaps. :lol :lol :lol

Think i'll take my chances with sheed over Prince.... our "hall of fame" coach decided to do that..... lol

quote out of detroit news with dyess speaking about his frustration of being taken out of game 7 with his 4 fouls while SA made there come back. He said something to the effect that he wished he could have used his 6 fouls up in the game. He is a reserve and that he would have liked the chance to use them up.

so everybody can talk about Flip and his playoff mistakes... trust us detroit fans we watched more then our share of brown playoff mistakes the last 2 years. and listening to the talking heads tell us how he was winning all our games.... sigh

We shall see in the playoffs what Flip has, he's got a ton of pressure to win it all, but he also has never had the talent he's had this year (minus Garnett)

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Here's a repost


First off, believe it or not, as much as I criticize the Spurs at every oppurtunity I get, stepping into Boutons-Sequ territory, I LOVE my spurs. I've been watching them back when I used to live in Saudi Arabia getting up 3-4 in the morning on a schoolnight just so I could watch them live. and after reading all the debates about how flip could fail in the playoffs or how the spurs will "turn it on" in the second half, and how health will play into it (which is a big issue no doubt) but I think everyone is forgetting the biggest factor that will determine the Finals


Motivation


and its ALL in detroit's favor. I mean you guys have to understand, this team has been determined and FOCUSED since DAY 1 of the season at the tip off so they could have HCA and every other advantage when the time comes to step on the court in June. I know a lot of teams use their season as a building block to shape up for the playoffs (obviously) but I don't think the NBA has seen a team this hungry and motivated in years I hear all this talk about Duncan owning Sheed, Parker destroying the Pistons frontcourt, and ummm........I wont name names but I know SOMEONE mentioned a Spurs sweep??? This road trip which is where we're supposed to "come together" and "click on all cylinders" is hogwash so far. I mean lets be realistic. OK, you're playing on the road, its gonna be a lot tougher than playing at home. but to BARELY beat NON Playoff teams by LESS THAN FIVE POINTS is not exactly dominance. Yes there were some games that were back to backs but guess what, GS didnt have Richardson and we barely survived. And I know some of you will say that these "gutsy" (which is a polite way off saying "hanging on to win") games will improve us in close game situations but there is a HUGE difference in a close game w/ GS and Portland and other lottery teams and then playing Detroit. Hell if we cant even dominate the lottery teams how are we even going to get into a SITUATION for a "close" game with Detroit?? I dont care how healthy Duncan is, it'll be a factor, but I promise you he wont "own" anybody. He'll have his good games and then he'll have his god awful games where we'll see the famous "Duncan has gone without a FG in last 26:47 of Play" which we see more and more often. Yeah, he's got PF, which I dont doubt hurts like a bitch, but even if he cures it somehow before the playoffs, Rasheed ALWAYS plays tim hard. If anything Rasheed has a slight edge in the category of being able to defend and block TD"s show almost at will, while being able to shoot OVER TD anytime he wants and nailing it (tho I def. believe TD is the better player, I just think Sheed gives him the toughest matchup in the league, moreso than KG). Duncan's outside game is zilch. his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!". As for Parker dominating the frontcourt of Detroit. Here's what'll happen........Parker will whip off 10 1st quarter points in about 6 minutes at the most. then detroit will pack the lane, knock TP to the ground a bit, and we'll continue to miss from the outside. Yes, 3's were HUGE for us in last year's finals, but frankly, our FG% is bloated due to Parker's amazing in the paint buckets which will decrease by the game when he comes across a monster like Ben Wallace. But forget all these stats and all these other things. I think Detroit simply wants it more. And ESPECIALLY against the Spurs. They arent gonna take any chances and they're gonna finish their business. I mean if we thought Detroit was tough in the regular season wait till the finals come and they get revenge. I know i come off as a closet pistons fan but its hard not to respect what this team is accomplishing. I also hope and pray that the spurs wake up and go on a 16 game win streak just dominating teams left, right, and center but I think we're a LOT further away from where we need to be (which is probably being the greatest spurs team in franchise history in order to beat detroit, yes folks I'm serious, once again the motivation factor is HUGE) I hope I'm wrong and I can look back at this post and laugh like I did when i freaked out prior to game 7 when we got whooped during game 6. But sadly, Detroit just has the heart right now. Which can count for more doubles doubles, 3 pointers, and free throws that could ever matter in a finals game. I dont care about the Mavs, Heat, Suns or anyone else. I do feel confident that we can beat those teams in a 7 game series no problem. But it all comes down to Detroit. They are really the only team that WE should be preparing for. The only guy on our team who will ALWAYS bring it is Manu. If the rest of the team could have 1/10000000000 that this guy does then I'm sure the matchup would be a hell of a lot more even. I mean we're STILL getting our asses handed to us on the boards by weak ass front lines.

So basically what I'm saying is, I dont care what Flip has done in the past, wether he's a choker in the playoffs or an overachiever who never had the right complete team with the right characters till now. I dont even think Flip is gonna matter much to be honest. Its gonna be all on the Pistons players. Flip wasnt there last year, he doesnt know how it felt. If anything he's just along for the ride, giving the Pistons more freedom than they've ever had. He probably wont even say anything much before game 1 except for "Rasheed, please take off your headphones I'm trying to talk" followed by a "whatevs yo whatevs" comment from sheed. All I know is, if the spurs dont just wake up phsycially, but mentally as well, its gonna be a real quick series and if you think otherwise its gonna be a slow month of june for you.


having sad all that the biggest factors for us to have any hope are......

- REBOUNDING....We cant afford to have a -20 rebounding average and expect to win. Start Nazr and have him honestly set a goal of 20 rebounds per game against detroit (which wont happen at all but we need to drill the point home about rebounding)

- Containing Chauncey and Tayshaun.....I think Bruce will do fine on Rip, but Chauncey is a deadly weapon and bruce cant cover both him and rip at the same time. I also think Tayshaun will be a bigger factor in this year's finals as I think LB played tayshaun to little last year. the only guy who can stop tayshaun is TD and td will have his hands full with both wallaces

- Play EVERY second of all 7 games like they are your last. no let downs, no "we're up by 10 lets take some time off" Pop needs to just go all out w/ the trio of manu, td, and tp and add nazr and horry in there for rebounding. I think Finley is a flat out bust like many spurs FA's seem to be. I cringe at the thought of NVE running down the floor 1 on 4 as the pistons get into position with the spurs on their way, and then NVE pulls up for an ill fated 3 that ruins our momentun and cuts our 8-1 run short as the pistons come back to sustain the lead and even expand on it thanks to NVE moronic shot selection.


It's gonna be tough and I just dont see us winning the series. But like I said. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm incredibly pessimistic but barring a major injury from detroit I have a bad feeling its gonna be our turn to ponder a summer of what might have been.

[polandprzem]

deja vu?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

deja vu?
:smokin

[leemajors]

his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!".

you don't think his pf may be affecting his footwork and rotations, especially in the second night of b2b's? come on

[zeleni]

I'd say let's start the starting 5 of

Tony Finley Bruce Rasho Nazr

Ginobili and Oberto first subs
Marks, NVE, Udrih, Barry 2nd unit

...and let TD get a proper treatment....


I'd say we can win a championship against Mavs and Nets even with such a lineup. Are u with me?

BELIEVE!

[JamStone]

"Tony Finley Bruce Rasho Nazr"


That just doesn't seem like a very good idea, sorry ...

[zeleni]

"Tony Finley Bruce Rasho Nazr"


That just doesn't seem like a very good idea, sorry ...


Believe... All I ask is a little faith...


:spin

[Amuseddaysleeper]

his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!".

you don't think his pf may be affecting his footwork and rotations, especially in the second night of b2b's? come on


it can affect his footwork but he still has no outside shot/bank shot

like i said, a championship for us is VERY unlikely this year. Detroit simply wants it too much

[FreshPrince22]

You should give RC more credit for his work in developing the Spurs as the most effective scout in the NBA since 1994. He is the one who put the Spurs light years ahead of the NBA in evaluating NBA quality talent throughout the World.

RC was quickly promoted to director of scouting, then to GM in 2002, then to Vice President of Basketball and GM in 2004 because of his greatcontributions at all levels. Not only are Manu and Parker perhaps two of the best steals in NBA Draft History, RC and the Spurs have 4 or 5 players stashed on the farm in Europe that would now be lottery picks.

I'll give you RC as the best drafting GM. Tony and Manu were great picks. But don't bring up guys who haven't stepped foot in the NBA. As we've seen in the past, those guys don't always translate to the NBA. Over the summer I heard all about how Oberto was going to be this big factor. What happend? He is essentially the Spurs version of Darko, without the upside. A garbage time guy. Also consider that even though RC has hit the jackpot twice late in the draft with Tony/Manu, Dumars has had his fair share of success late in the draft. Tayshaun was a 23rd pick, and Memo Okur was a 38th pick of his. Time will tell with his current crop of prospects (Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir, Acker).

But Free Agency and Trades is where Dumars sets himself apart. Look at their Free agent/trading histories (I'm taking out the scrub deals):

RC Buford
2005-2006:
-Signed Michael Finley (has underachieved big time)
-Signed Nick Van Exel (another underachiever)
-Signed Oberto (thought of as a big deal, hasn't materialized)

2004-2005:
-Signed Glen Robinson
-Traded Malik and a 1st for Nazr
-Signed Brent Barry (You tell me)

2003-2004:
-Signed Rasho Nesterovic (ugly contract)
-Traded Ferry for Mercer and Hedo

2002-2003:
-Not much here.

Joe Dumars
2005-2006:
-Signed Mo Evans
-Signed Dale Davis
-Hired Flip Saunders

2004-2005:
-Signed Antonio McDyess

2003-2004:
-Traded Atkins, Rebraca, and Sura for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James (:fro)
-Hired Larry Brown

2002-2003:
-Traded Stackhouse and Cardinal for Rip Hamilton and Bobby Simmons
-Signed Chauncey Billups to 5 year, MLE deal.

2001-2002:
-Hired Rick Carlisle

2000-2001:
-Traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins (:fro)

It speaks for itself. Dumars has completely transformed this team. RC has put nice complimentary pieces around an already solid foundation (Duncan). And Dumars has consistantly made the perfect moves when the team needs it. Particulary when it comes to coaches.

[Kori Ellis]

-Traded Hedo and Ferry for Mercer and Horry

You got that one pretty wrong. The Spurs traded Danny Ferry and got Hedo and Mercer back. And that was the summer of 2003.

[FreshPrince22]

You got that one pretty wrong. The Spurs traded Danny Ferry and got Hedo and Mercer back. And that was the summer of 2003.

:lol Sorry, misread it. Everything should be correct, now.

[leemajors]

it can affect his footwork but he still has no outside shot/bank shot

like i said, a championship for us is VERY unlikely this year. Detroit simply wants it too much


i just don't see how you dismiss his pf as a factor on his shot. last time i checked, you have to use your feet to shoot too. he shoots well when rested, and poor when he is not.

[Darrin]

Not really, its VERY valid. Lets suddenly imagine that Popovich the GM consistanly brought in PGs that were gunners. Troy Hudson, Eddie house type players to run the pt and sent passing pgs on there way. When popovich takes over the reigns as coach do you suddenly think he's going to change his beliefs and style? Fact is fact, becase of Flips stlye of play and what he wants to do we said goodbye to our two toughest pgs in history in Bobby Jackson and Billups.

Pistons Identity is slowly changing from Defense to a really fun team to watch. Changing coaches will change the philospy from "what size ring do you wear to wait till next regular season" Think about it, no team in their right mind that revolves around defense would want to shoot more threes then absolute neccesary. Long shots=long rebounds=fast break opportunities. The key to defensive teams is to get the D set up in a halfcourt offense. ESPECIALLY don't have your PF shooting any bc rebounding is key to defense. Face this too, your backcourt may be the key to your offense, but the wallaces are getting old and your whole team has been blessed lack of major injuries for a while now. As much of a boon it is to have a great offense, it DOES lead to more activity than in prior years for chances of injuries

This is a one shot chance for Flip to redeem himself or he forever turns into Henry Winkler the coach from Waterboy but without any Adam Sandler's to bring him out of his rut IMO.

The Pistons unquestioned leader is Joe Dumars, not Flip Saunders. Saunders was brought in here to end the scoring droughts, not turn the Pistons identity into the Phoenix Suns'. And if Flip goes too far in the other direction, guess who's starting a new search for a coach? Joe Dumars.

Defense not only wins in this town, it sells tickets. It's why Ben Wallace's name is up there with Gordy Howe, Steve Yzerman, Kirk Gibson, Barry Sanders, Isiah Thomas, Dave Bing, and Joe Dumars in terms of sports heroes of Detroit. It's why Ben Wallace has joined that eminent list of sports figures and Grant Hill never did. It's why the 1990s Pistons never connected with this community. It's why we shout "Deeeetriot Basketbaaaalll" after a change of possession. It's not a turnover; it's an affirmation of what we want to see.

The early 1980s was a score-fest in Detroit. The four-headed monster of Isiah Thomas, Kelly Tripuka, John Long, and Vinnie Johnson wowed the crowds, scoring 115.7 ppg from 1984-1986. This included the highest scoring game in NBA history, 186-184 3OT comeback victory over Denver in December of 1983. Thomas (47), Long (41), and Tripuka (35) led the Pistons that night.

However, after making their first playoff appearance since 1977 when they played the Knicks in the 1984 playoffs, and going to six games in the semifinals against Boston in 1985, the Pistons faced the Atlanta Hawks and Dominique Wilkens in the opening round of the 1986 playoffs. The Hawks put up 122.0 points (140 and 137 in games one and two) on the Pistons in 3-1 spanking by the Hawks. Worse yet, they let Dominique go for 34.2 ppg highlighted by 50 points on 28 shots in game two.

Suddenly, John Long, Kelly Tripuka, and Kent Benson are replaced by Joe Dumars, Adrian Dantley, and Rick Mahorn. The Pistons, looking for a way to guard the Celtics frontline, draft John Salley and Dennis Rodman in the 1986 draft.

The next five seasons, the Pistons make five appearances in the Conference Finals, Three Appearances in the NBA Finals, and win back-to-back Championships. The Pistons had three winning seasons from 1957-1983; they were the Clippers. We wasted talents like Dave Bing and Bob Lanier, Dave DeBusschere, and Bob McAdoo.

My point to all this history? To Pistons fans without defense, we can't win titles, and we want titles more than anything. Joe Dumars and Bill Davidson understand that. Flip Saunders isn't going to change that.

[TDMVPDPOY]

pisstons just lost to feces

[Darrin]

pisstons just lost to feces

And this has to do with this topic how?

[5ToolMan]

I'll give you RC as the best drafting GM. Tony and Manu were great picks. But don't bring up guys who haven't stepped foot in the NBA. As we've seen in the past, those guys don't always translate to the NBA. Over the summer I heard all about how Oberto was going to be this big factor. What happend? He is essentially the Spurs version of Darko, without the upside. A garbage time guy. Also consider that even though RC has hit the jackpot twice late in the draft with Tony/Manu, Dumars has had his fair share of success late in the draft. Tayshaun was a 23rd pick, and Memo Okur was a 38th pick of his. Time will tell with his current crop of prospects (Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir, Acker).

But Free Agency and Trades is where Dumars sets himself apart. Look at their Free agent/trading histories (I'm taking out the scrub deals):

RC Buford
2005-2006:
-Signed Michael Finley (has underachieved big time)
-Signed Nick Van Exel (another underachiever)
-Signed Oberto (thought of as a big deal, hasn't materialized)

2004-2005:
-Signed Glen Robinson
-Traded Malik and a 1st for Nazr
-Signed Brent Barry (You tell me)

2003-2004:
-Signed Rasho Nesterovic (ugly contract)
-Traded Ferry for Mercer and Hedo

2002-2003:
-Not much here.

Joe Dumars
2005-2006:
-Signed Mo Evans
-Signed Dale Davis
-Hired Flip Saunders

2004-2005:
-Signed Antonio McDyess

2003-2004:
-Traded Atkins, Rebraca, and Sura for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James (:fro)
-Hired Larry Brown

2002-2003:
-Traded Stackhouse and Cardinal for Rip Hamilton and Bobby Simmons
-Signed Chauncey Billups to 5 year, MLE deal.

2001-2002:
-Hired Rick Carlisle

2000-2001:
-Traded Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins (:fro)

It speaks for itself. Dumars has completely transformed this team. RC has put nice complimentary pieces around an already solid foundation (Duncan). And Dumars has consistantly made the perfect moves when the team needs it. Particulary when it comes to coaches.

In 2001 - 2002 you missed Stephen Jackson. In 2002 - 2003 you only missed the signing of Manu. In 2003 - 2004 you missed the signing of Devin Brown, who was the Spurs sixth man before a back injury took him out of last years playoffs.

As for the Spurs new players being underachievers, you must be kidding. While none have set the World on fire, none were brougnt in to be more than be solid role players. While Finley has struggled with not being a volumn shooter, he has still managed to win a few games with his stroke from the field and/or the line. I expect him to deliver more as the season and especially the playoffs move on.

[conqueso]

I know there's no one who's going to give up this debate over RC Buford and Joe Dumars, but I have to disagree on the "less with more" debate. ...

Yeah, I hear your points, and I haven't read all the epic responses yet, but the proof really is in the pudding. Manu was the second to last pick of the 99 draft. Tony was the last pick of the first round of the '01 draft. Both turned out to be All-Stars. Dumars on the other hand made what could have been the second worst number 2 pick in NBA history (Sam Bowie being the clear winner in that category). Buford was the one who made those picks happen more than anyone else in the Spurs organization. During his tenure, he's won two titles, been to the WCF three times, and dethroned the 3-peat Lakers dynasty. He assembled that giant killer team out of spare parts, cast-offs that couldn't/didn't excel in any other system (Bowen, SJax, Speedy, etc.). His talent evaluating is better than Dumars', but granted, not by a lot.

And as for the Duncan/Manu/Game 7 debate, I'm gonna have to get back to you on that one after the Super Bowl. Duncan missed many shots and free throws in the fourth, while Manu made play after play after play on both offense and defense. He was stone cold. But again, I'll pay attention to the times you pointed out and get around to writing a worthy response, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Darrin]

Yeah, I hear your points, and I haven't read all the epic responses yet, but the proof really is in the pudding. Manu was the second to last pick of the 99 draft. Tony was the last pick of the first round of the '01 draft. Both turned out to be All-Stars. Dumars on the other hand made what could have been the second worst number 2 pick in NBA history (Sam Bowie being the clear winner in that category). Buford was the one who made those picks happen more than anyone else in the Spurs organization. During his tenure, he's won two titles, been to the WCF three times, and dethroned the 3-peat Lakers dynasty. He assembled that giant killer team out of spare parts, cast-offs that couldn't/didn't excel in any other system (Bowen, SJax, Speedy, etc.). His talent evaluating is better than Dumars', but granted, not by a lot.

I'll just pull out two facts here:

38th Overall pick in 2001: Memhmet Okur (17.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 2.6 apg, .98 bpg).
23rd Overall pick in 2002: Tayshaun Prince (14.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.3 apg, .62 spg).

Both won a Championship with the Pistons, neither of them were lottery picks, one was a starter for all 82 games, the other was moved to the bench by Rasheed Wallace.

Those players are much more comparable to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili than Darko Milicic. The Pistons have been in the Conference Finals just as many times, and beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals, the first team to ever beat a Phil Jackson team that late in the game.

[sickdsm]

At what point before this year was Chauncey Billups a "passing PG"?? The guy has been a "gunner" untill this year.



A team can't be fun to watch and play defense? That's news to me. They're just a defensive team that can score now. They're giving up a whopping 0.5 more points per game. And even that number is off because the Pistons are involved in so much garbage time where D gets soft.



You clearly don't know this team. Their entire focus of the regular season is to get HCA, because that's what cost them back-to-back rings last year.



Rasheed shot about 250 threes each of the last 2 years under Larry Brown. How come it's fine under him, but not under Flip? Because LB's some sort of genius, right? :rolleyes



The Pistons also have the best strength and conditioning coaches in the league (Arnie Kander, Mike Abdenour). Ask around, players will pretty consistantly say those are the best guys in the league. Arnie Kander in particular. Injuries happen. If they happen to this team, it won't be because of the "new offense". If anything, our chances of injury are down with this offense because they aren't breaking off plays anymore. They're executing much better. And you can call Ben and Sheed "old" all you want, but you should look at the minutes. Neither of them have played even close to the career minutes of KG. It's a lot more about the miles on the body than the age. Not only is Big Ben in the best shape in the league, he also has fairly light miles on his body due to not playing starter minutes untill he became a Piston.



uh.... ok?


Similies, metaphors and comparisons never worked at all for you in school did they? Only a moron would take that out of context (or someone who was at a loss for words) and try to play the " but billups is a gunner, and popovich never traded for Troy Hudson" bullshit.

I say there turning into a fun teach to watch because guess what? I KNOW FLIP SAUNDERS TRACK RECORD!!! Very entertaining teams to watch. They get you hyped up for the postseason. Then you realize the regular season in the NBA is like the preseason games in the NFL and your Brady's, LT's, and Demarcus Ware's have suddenly turned into Rattay, Sugg's, and Ralph Brown. (But those guys aren't NBA players, what the hell are you talking about? :rolleyes ) Flip won't intensify a defense come playoff time (any idiot can coach defense......) thats a fact.


Funny you bring up KG's minutes. I've been bitching about Flips use of him for years. But his minutes were actually more warranted with his teams then your frontcourt. Funny how KG has been much less durable and maybe to te point of breaking down in his career now.

When did i say it was fine for a PF to shoot threes? You obviously must not peruse non piston related threads or you would have seen preseason how I ripped Ferry for not addressing a shooting need with all that cap space until they got Damon jones. Kori mentioned Marshall and i said your in big trouble if you depend on your PF let alone a backup 4 to shoot your threes. Since the pistons depend more on the three then in the past, theres a problem there.


Age is more important than a better s&c coach. At that level there all pretty damn good. Injuries down bc there not breaking off plays? thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Let me know how well ankles' hold up because Rip landed on someone's foot after what was a wide open three. Do you have any numbers coorelating the injuries over the years to teams with less effective offenses? Damn, get Pop on the phone right now and tell him that duncan's foot problems will go away if the can swing a deal for Bobby Sura. Maybe Something with Brent Barry involved will make T-macs Chronic back problems dissapear for him. Grant Hill's better than ever now that Dwight howard and Jameer nelson have really emerged.

[sickdsm]

I'm sorry. But the Darko one is just tooo much for me. I've heard all about "but we didn't need carmelo, we had prince" bs too much.

So what if you didn't want Carmelo, you don't think you could have traded for a peja/artest type talent for that? Draft Wade? How rediculous would it be to have a Dwayne wade, Bosh, Hinrich, coming off the bench? 4-peat? Probably

And how come Buss was a great gm for Payton and malone signgings for their price but NVE and finlye are crap?

Its like whining over who's better, Wade or James. One of which was there for the taking........

[conqueso]

I'll just pull out two facts here:

38th Overall pick in 2001: Memhmet Okur (17.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 2.6 apg, .98 bpg).
23rd Overall pick in 2002: Tayshaun Prince (14.3 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.3 apg, .62 spg).

Both won a Championship with the Pistons, neither of them were lottery picks, one was a starter for all 82 games, the other was moved to the bench by Rasheed Wallace.

Those players are much more comparable to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili than Darko Milicic. The Pistons have been in the Conference Finals just as many times, and beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals, the first team to ever beat a Phil Jackson team that late in the game.

I mean, we can obviously never know for sure, and hindsight really is 20-20, but I'm willing to bet that Buford would not have wasted the second pick of one of the deepest drafts in NBA history on a 18 year old unproven 7-footer from Novi Sad. Forget about what you need or what part seems like it would be the best fit; the point remains that in that draft, the value of the second pick was astronomical, and could have been dealt for a near All-Star calibre player. It just makes more sense to trade that pick and get a player that is exactly what you need instead of drafting what at best was a work-in-progress with a decidedly uncertain potential. In my defense, I felt this way on draft day in '03 too. But there were lots of people at that time who thought it was a good idea, so maybe it's unfair to fault Dumars too much for it. But even still, I think Buford would not have failed that badly. Among Buford's failures, the only glaring ones that come to mind are Derek Anderson and Rasho and the Giricek thing. Even those three added together don't equal the tragedy that is Darko Milicic ahead of Melo, Wade, Bosh, Hinrich, Ford, Ridnour, Diaw, hell even Sweetney, Kaman, and Korver. I mean, that draft pick hasn't just turned out to be bad...it's turned out to be almost surreally awful.

Another good point that I've read from some people is the free-agent signings and trades. Bowen, SJax, Speedy, Horry, even Barry and Nazr have all been HUGE in the playoffs and paid big dividends. I laud Dumars for assembling a championship starting lineup from stratch with savvy trades, free agents signings, and a good draft pick. And I understand that he didn't have a once-in-a-lifetime superstar to build around. But he also had a bigger market city with a pre-established winning tradition and substantially more "street cred" than Buford did. Perhaps, Buford didn't do more with less, but he definitely has done more.

Plus, Okur and Prince are not All-Stars. They're good players, that's for sure. Maybe even comparable to Tony and Manu. But still not as good. Plus, I think it means something that Dumars couldn't hold on to one of them, while Buford secured both of his diamonds-in-the-rough with long term deals. And finally, neither of those players could EVER give the greatest power forward of all time a run for his money for Finals MVP.

Don't get me wrong, I love Dumars. He's definitely my number 2. But his successes haven't been as great as Buford's, and his failures have been much worse. And that reality has to carry the day.

And as a parting shot, one of the biggest reasons that the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals was that the Lakers had to run the Western Conference gauntlet and were dealt a crippling injury in the championship series. Who knows, maybe Dumars was .4 seconds away from relative obscurity....

[conqueso]

... but I think everyone is forgetting the biggest factor that will determine the Finals

Motivation

and its ALL in detroit's favor. I mean you guys have to understand, this team has been determined and FOCUSED since DAY 1 of the season at the tip off so they could have HCA and every other advantage when the time comes to step on the court in June. I know a lot of teams use their season as a building block to shape up for the playoffs (obviously) but I don't think the NBA has seen a team this hungry and motivated in years I hear all this talk about Duncan owning Sheed, Parker destroying the Pistons frontcourt, and ummm........I wont name names but I know SOMEONE mentioned a Spurs sweep??? This road trip which is where we're supposed to "come together" and "click on all cylinders" is hogwash so far. I mean lets be realistic. OK, you're playing on the road, its gonna be a lot tougher than playing at home. but to BARELY beat NON Playoff teams by LESS THAN FIVE POINTS is not exactly dominance. Yes there were some games that were back to backs but guess what, GS didnt have Richardson and we barely survived. And I know some of you will say that these "gutsy" (which is a polite way off saying "hanging on to win") games will improve us in close game situations but there is a HUGE difference in a close game w/ GS and Portland and other lottery teams and then playing Detroit. Hell if we cant even dominate the lottery teams how are we even going to get into a SITUATION for a "close" game with Detroit?? I dont care how healthy Duncan is, it'll be a factor, but I promise you he wont "own" anybody. He'll have his good games and then he'll have his god awful games where we'll see the famous "Duncan has gone without a FG in last 26:47 of Play" which we see more and more often. Yeah, he's got PF, which I dont doubt hurts like a bitch, but even if he cures it somehow before the playoffs, Rasheed ALWAYS plays tim hard. If anything Rasheed has a slight edge in the category of being able to defend and block TD"s show almost at will, while being able to shoot OVER TD anytime he wants and nailing it (tho I def. believe TD is the better player, I just think Sheed gives him the toughest matchup in the league, moreso than KG). Duncan's outside game is zilch. his bank shot has died as has his footwork. We're at a day where Troy Murphy and other scrubs give him a hard time to a point of where we say "HEY LETS SIGN TROY MURPHY!!". As for Parker dominating the frontcourt of Detroit. Here's what'll happen........Parker will whip off 10 1st quarter points in about 6 minutes at the most. then detroit will pack the lane, knock TP to the ground a bit, and we'll continue to miss from the outside. Yes, 3's were HUGE for us in last year's finals, but frankly, our FG% is bloated due to Parker's amazing in the paint buckets which will decrease by the game when he comes across a monster like Ben Wallace. But forget all these stats and all these other things. I think Detroit simply wants it more. And ESPECIALLY against the Spurs. They arent gonna take any chances and they're gonna finish their business. I mean if we thought Detroit was tough in the regular season wait till the finals come and they get revenge. I know i come off as a closet pistons fan but its hard not to respect what this team is accomplishing. I also hope and pray that the spurs wake up and go on a 16 game win streak just dominating teams left, right, and center but I think we're a LOT further away from where we need to be (which is probably being the greatest spurs team in franchise history in order to beat detroit, yes folks I'm serious, once again the motivation factor is HUGE) I hope I'm wrong and I can look back at this post and laugh like I did when i freaked out prior to game 7 when we got whooped during game 6. But sadly, Detroit just has the heart right now. Which can count for more doubles doubles, 3 pointers, and free throws that could ever matter in a finals game. I dont care about the Mavs, Heat, Suns or anyone else. I do feel confident that we can beat those teams in a 7 game series no problem. But it all comes down to Detroit. They are really the only team that WE should be preparing for. The only guy on our team who will ALWAYS bring it is Manu. If the rest of the team could have 1/10000000000 that this guy does then I'm sure the matchup would be a hell of a lot more even. I mean we're STILL getting our asses handed to us on the boards by weak ass front lines.

So basically what I'm saying is, I dont care what Flip has done in the past, wether he's a choker in the playoffs or an overachiever who never had the right complete team with the right characters till now. I dont even think Flip is gonna matter much to be honest. Its gonna be all on the Pistons players. Flip wasnt there last year, he doesnt know how it felt. If anything he's just along for the ride, giving the Pistons more freedom than they've ever had. He probably wont even say anything much before game 1 except for "Rasheed, please take off your headphones I'm trying to talk" followed by a "whatevs yo whatevs" comment from sheed. All I know is, if the spurs dont just wake up phsycially, but mentally as well, its gonna be a real quick series and if you think otherwise its gonna be a slow month of june for you.


having sad all that the biggest factors for us to have any hope are......

- REBOUNDING....We cant afford to have a -20 rebounding average and expect to win. Start Nazr and have him honestly set a goal of 20 rebounds per game against detroit (which wont happen at all but we need to drill the point home about rebounding)

- Containing Chauncey and Tayshaun.....I think Bruce will do fine on Rip, but Chauncey is a deadly weapon and bruce cant cover both him and rip at the same time. I also think Tayshaun will be a bigger factor in this year's finals as I think LB played tayshaun to little last year. the only guy who can stop tayshaun is TD and td will have his hands full with both wallaces

- Play EVERY second of all 7 games like they are your last. no let downs, no "we're up by 10 lets take some time off" Pop needs to just go all out w/ the trio of manu, td, and tp and add nazr and horry in there for rebounding. I think Finley is a flat out bust like many spurs FA's seem to be. I cringe at the thought of NVE running down the floor 1 on 4 as the pistons get into position with the spurs on their way, and then NVE pulls up for an ill fated 3 that ruins our momentun and cuts our 8-1 run short as the pistons come back to sustain the lead and even expand on it thanks to NVE moronic shot selection.


It's gonna be tough and I just dont see us winning the series. But like I said. I hope I'm wrong b/c I'm incredibly pessimistic but barring a major injury from detroit I have a bad feeling its gonna be our turn to ponder a summer of what might have been.


Ahhh, this is exactly what I've been looking for.

Yes, motivation is obviously important. Say what you will about talent and opportunity, those things probably cancel each other out in a seven game series between these two teams. And I agree that Detroit looks like a team on a mission, while the Spurs (Tony excepted) look like a team complacent. And I agree with everything you said, but I'm going to say something that will draw a lot of fire out of the Pistons fans on this board, and I know it's probably the worst thing to say, but I just can't help it: I think the Pistons have the heart to beat the Spurs, but don't have the ability to exert their will when it matters most.

I know the Game 7 loss last year affected the Pistons very deeply. That is obvious from their play this year. And maybe it changed who they fundamentally are. But that fourth quarter of Game 7 is very telling of the character of that team. I think it demonstrates what the Pistons don't have, and can't have. Tie game, 12 minutes to decide a champion, and the defensive focus melts away. The Pistons let Manu Ginobili exert his will and take over the game. They let the Spurs make all the amazing plays, while making none of their own. Desire and determination can only take you so far; something else has to be there to beat another elite team.

Now I know all the Pistons fans in the world blame Larry for that loss (or the refs, but those Pistons fans don't count because they're morons). And I can understand why he's become the fall guy. But all of you need to ask yourselves, being in that situation without the benefit of hindsight, would you have done it differently? Would you have played Duncan straight up and doubled Manu? Would you have forced Chauncey to take every shot? What would you have done that could have made a difference?

No matter how determined and focused the Pistons are, they have shown me that when they are 12 minutes away from getting the rings and securing their place in history, they fold. It sounds weird to say that about a team that performs so well under pressure, but that seemed to be just too much pressure for them. They couldn't handle being in that situation, and none of them, not even the amazingly clutch Chanucey Billups, could match Manu. None of them could pull out a crucial defensive stop like Bowen did. You didn't see Ben or Sheed or Prince block a shot that would have shifted all the momentum and given them the impetus to win the game. You watch the last half of that quarter, and the Pistons (with maybe Chauncey excepted) look scared. The Spurs on the other hand are the ones that look determined and focused. Is that because they were in a friendly environment? Maybe. Was it because they had something to prove? Who knows. But the fact remains; when it mattered most, when the trophy was right there in front of them and they had to reach out and snatch it away from the other team, they did. They showed their true character, something that we saw glimpses of in Game 6 in 2003. And while Detroit has the motivation, San Antonio has something that has been proven to be more powerful; they have the will to power, the ability to execute at the highest level to accomplish their goal. This is the same character that the Bulls teams had with MJ, that the Lakers had with Shaq and Kobe, and it's why the Spurs -- with everything else being equal -- have a decided advantage over the Pistons in the NBA Finals.

To paraphrase Kobe from '01, "Basketball is not about passion or energy or determination, it's about execution." And what the Spurs lack in motivation, they make up for in their ability to exert their will when it matters most.

[JamStone]

What does game 6 of the finals say about the Spurs last year? Up 3-2 and coming home to close out a championship to prevent a game 7 where anything could happen due to injury or foul trouble, why didn't the Spurs close it out then?

I'll tell you why ... because it's not just about will to win. It's about execution. It's about the shots falling. It's about how hard the other team plays. It's about getting lucky breaks. It's about the officiating. It's about more than just will to win, that you try to implicate the Pistons lacking. And, that comment is so completely absurd when referring to a team in which its core players had just CLOSED OUT a championship the year before. Could the same have been said about the Spurs in 2004 when they choked to the Lakers? When it counted most, the Spurs couldn't recover from the .4 shot? Using your rationale, the Spurs should not have won it last year because they choked the year before.

Let the games speak for themselves, instead of using backward ass logic to try to make a point. The Spurs were the better team last year. They more than deserved the championship. Your utter disregard for the Pistons' championship mettle and heart is inexplicably foolish. I don't really blame Larry Brown. I don't blame the unfortunate calls by the refs. I can use those things to help explain the loss. But, they are not excuses, nor do they define this year's Detroit Pistons. Last year, the Spurs were the better team. The Pistons got beat by the better team. Every season is different. The way you describe the Pistons could be the same description of the Chicago Bulls before 1991. It just doesn't make sense to say because one year ago, the Pistons were not able to beat a championship team in the fourth quarter in game 7 ON THE ROAD that the Pistons won't be able to do it this year. It's simply absurd.

[1Parker1]

To paraphrase Kobe from '01, "Basketball is not about passion or energy or determination, it's about execution."

Damn, Kobe said that? That's pretty good :smokin

[JamStone]

To paraphrase Kobe from '01, "Basketball is not about passion or energy or determination, it's about execution." And what the Spurs lack in motivation, they make up for in their ability to exert their will when it matters most.


Unless it's free throws???

[leemajors]

cause the world don't move to the beat of just one drum
what might be right for you
might not be right for soooome

[conqueso]

What does game 6 of the finals say about the Spurs last year? Up 3-2 and coming home to close out a championship to prevent a game 7 where anything could happen due to injury or foul trouble, why didn't the Spurs close it out then?

I'll tell you why ... because it's not just about will to win. It's about execution. It's about the shots falling. It's about how hard the other team plays. It's about getting lucky breaks. It's about the officiating. It's about more than just will to win, that you try to implicate the Pistons lacking. And, that comment is so completely absurd when referring to a team in which its core players had just CLOSED OUT a championship the year before. Could the same have been said about the Spurs in 2004 when they choked to the Lakers? When it counted most, the Spurs couldn't recover from the .4 shot? Using your rationale, the Spurs should not have won it last year because they choked the year before.

Let the games speak for themselves, instead of using backward ass logic to try to make a point. The Spurs were the better team last year. They more than deserved the championship. Your utter disregard for the Pistons' championship mettle and heart is inexplicably foolish. I don't really blame Larry Brown. I don't blame the unfortunate calls by the refs. I can use those things to help explain the loss. But, they are not excuses, nor do they define this year's Detroit Pistons. Last year, the Spurs were the better team. The Pistons got beat by the better team. Every season is different. The way you describe the Pistons could be the same description of the Chicago Bulls before 1991. It just doesn't make sense to say because one year ago, the Pistons were not able to beat a championship team in the fourth quarter in game 7 ON THE ROAD that the Pistons won't be able to do it this year. It's simply absurd.


I don't think it's absurd at all. Every team has a character, determined in part by their history, the city they play in, the coach, and the individual constituents of their team. For the Spurs, '04 is amazingly different from '03 because of the vacuum left by the departure of the the Top 50 HoFer Face of the Franchise and two of the key members of the Championship team from the year before. In the same vein, '06 is different from '05, but in a different way; the Spurs haven't lost anything (except TD's mobility and bank shot), but have instead added good things. The Pistons from '05 to '06, on the other hand, have changed just their coach; their roster is pretty much identical. The reason I started this thread was to figure out how much that coaching switch had changed the character of the team. Flip did not bring with him the character that a coach like Phil brings to a team, a fundamental change in the way the team views big games. He brought some X's and O's, and that has clearly made their offense better, but will his character affect them adversely in big games? I think it might.

I think it makes lots of sense to say that because the '05 Pistons couldn't execute in the fourth quarter of game 7 of the NBA Finals, the substantially similar '06 team won't be able to execute in a similar situation again. The character of the team hasn't changed to overcome that deficit, and I don't think (and granted, this is opinion here) that "motivation" or "determination" can make up for that. Barring injury or just exceptional luck one way or the other, another Spurs-Pistons Finals matchup is destined to go 7 games, and if you take this year's teams and put them in a tie game at the end of three in Game 7, history dictates that the character of this Spurs team makes them the favorite. Execution trumps determination.

Now I'm not sure if I really believe that, but it's Phil's mantra, and he's made both Kobe and Jordan buy into it, and he's got nine rings, so I'm willing to defer to his position. And using his rationale, the Spurs have to be the favorite, with all other things being equal (i.e. no big injuries or biased referring or whatever).

And I'm not really sure what exactly makes that "backward ass logic," but hopefully you will be able to explain it to me. Before you start slinging accusations around though, recognize that I didn't question the Pistons' heart or championship mettle; I in fact wrote "I think the Pistons have the heart to beat the Spurs." I think you missed my point, especially when you respond to my "Execution is all that matters" Kobe quote by saying that "it's not about will to win....It's about execution." I actually used "execution" and "will to power" synonymously, which might be confusing, but I think ultimately justified. But feel free to replace all the "will to..." language in my last post with "execute" and I'm sure you'll get my memaning.

[JamStone]

I always thought it was:

"Cuz the world don't groove to the beat of just one drum ..."

[JamStone]

If the Pistons get homecourt advantage and both the Pistons and Spurs are fortunate enough to get back to the finals, and the two teams are put in the same situation, but it is in the Palace of Auburn Hills, that does change things. Game 7 at the Palace does give the Pistons a decided advantage just like being in San Antonio in game 7 last year helped the Spurs.

It doesn't matter if you were talking about ONLY execution or ONLY will to win. My point in rebuttal is that it is neither factor by itself that determines the winner. MANY FACTORS contribute in deciding who ultimately wins. Execution is absolutely part of it. Will to win is absolutely a part of it. Lucky breaks are absolutely a part of it. Health is absolutely a part of it. Officiating is absolutely a part of it.

Your rant that put in a similar situation, the Pistons would fold in the final minutes of a game 7 situation is foolish for so many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that GAME 6 WAS A GAME 7 situation for the Pistons. Game 6 was an elimination game for the Pistons. It essentially was the same pressure. They did not fold then. And, while the Spurs were better in game 7, there were contributing factors such as coaching blunders and foul trouble that were also factors, not just execution in the fourth quarter.

It is foolish because you claim that the Pistons cannot close a championship, but they were able to do it the season before. The Pistons had game sevens against New Jersey and Miami over the last two years, and the Miami game 7 was IN MIAMI. Those were similar situations. And, the Pistons were able to "EXECUTE" and win those games.

It doesn't make sense because in the seven game series, both teams blew out the other, and both teams showed their grit and perseverence by winning key games on the road. Again, like I said earlier, your logic would lend me to believe that Michael Jordan would not be able to beat the Pistons in the 1991 playoffs, because he had always choked against the Pistons in the playoffs prior to that year, and his team and coaches were essentially the same as the previous two years. Phil Jackson had been coach since 1989. The Bulls lost to the Pistons in the playoffs the previous three years. So, how could the Bulls beat the Pistons in 1991??? Not by your logic. Oh, but the Bulls had homecourt advantage over the Pistons in 1991. Hmmmmmmm ... The Bulls got better even though there were no coaching changes or major roster changes. Hmmmmmm.

That's why your logic doesn't make sense. Every season is different. You cannot label or define a team by ONE fourth quarter of a game 7. It is not like the Pistons have lost three straight game sevens in the NBA finals. It's not like the Pistons haven't won an NBA championship already. It's not like they haven't performed in other fourth quarters of game sevens before. Your logic is misguided.

[Darrin]

I mean, we can obviously never know for sure, and hindsight really is 20-20, but I'm willing to bet that Buford would not have wasted the second pick of one of the deepest drafts in NBA history on a 18 year old unproven 7-footer from Novi Sad. Forget about what you need or what part seems like it would be the best fit; the point remains that in that draft, the value of the second pick was astronomical, and could have been dealt for a near All-Star calibre player. It just makes more sense to trade that pick and get a player that is exactly what you need instead of drafting what at best was a work-in-progress with a decidedly uncertain potential. In my defense, I felt this way on draft day in '03 too. But there were lots of people at that time who thought it was a good idea, so maybe it's unfair to fault Dumars too much for it. But even still, I think Buford would not have failed that badly. Among Buford's failures, the only glaring ones that come to mind are Derek Anderson and Rasho and the Giricek thing. Even those three added together don't equal the tragedy that is Darko Milicic ahead of Melo, Wade, Bosh, Hinrich, Ford, Ridnour, Diaw, hell even Sweetney, Kaman, and Korver. I mean, that draft pick hasn't just turned out to be bad...it's turned out to be almost surreally awful.

The man is 20-years-old with Three former All-NBA selections (Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess) infront of him. You say Sam Bowie, I say Jermaine O'Neal. The one knock against Joe Dumars is that he cannot draft high. Mateen Cleaves (14), Rodney White (9), and Darko Milicic (2). Find me another weakness. But my reply was about doing "more with less." So if he's wasting high draft picks, doesn't that actually make it more incredible that he built a perennial contender?


Bowen, SJax, Speedy, Horry, even Barry and Nazr have all been HUGE in the playoffs and paid big dividends.

Joe Smith, Damon Jones, Antonio McDyess, Elden Campbell, Maurice Evans, Dale Davis, Corliss Williamson, Darvin Ham, Zeljko Rebraca, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, and Chucky Atkins are just some of the free agents Dumars has signed.


I laud Dumars for assembling a championship starting lineup from stratch with savvy trades, free agents signings, and a good draft pick. And I understand that he didn't have a once-in-a-lifetime superstar to build around. But he also had a bigger market city with a pre-established winning tradition and substantially more "street cred" than Buford did. Perhaps, Buford didn't do more with less, but he definitely has done more.

I'm sorry, I can't honestly accept this as an equalizer for having Tim Duncan. This isn't Major League Baseball where the Detroit Tigers can steal the Florida Marlins best player (Puge Rodriguez). A superstar big man who was Finals MVP in his second season or a snowy, cold city that has a cap on how much they can spend?

Dumars reputation as a nice guy got him a lot of credibility, I will admit. But that only was an asset because the Pistons reputation was so bad when he took over. If the Pistons didn't have rumors of too many cooks in the kitchen, manic personalities running the organization and they had the same results (from 1993-2000: 40 wins, 20 wins, 28 wins, 46 wins, 54 wins, 37 wins, 29 wins (of 50), 42 wins) he would just be another nice guy who couldn't build a team. Every great hero needs a foil, and the Pistons losing repuation was his foil.



Plus, Okur and Prince are not All-Stars.

Give it a week.

Some of Prince's highlights:

Tallying 12 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, and drawing two offensive fouls in an 8-minute stretch of a game seven in his rookie season. His career-high 20 points was exactly 1 point less than the man who played double the minutes and that he had to guard - Tracy McGrady.

After Chauncey Billups twists his ankle in the fourth quarter of the second round series of Prince's rookie season, Prince not only nails the game-tying shot to send the game into overtime, he scores 7 of the Pistons 12 points in ovetime to take a 2-0 series lead. Remember, the 23rd pick in his rookie season.

By the time the Eastern Conference Finals in 2003 begin, the Pistons playing the New Jersey Nets, Prince is the starter. He hasn't been out of the starting lineup since then.

In the five-game series in the first round of the 2004 playoffs, Prince averages 17.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.2 bpg, and 1.2 spg. That's not Andrei Kirilenko or Rasheed Wallace, that's the 23rd pick in the 2002 draft.

With the Pistons down 1-0 in the Conference Finals, and a shot on its way to be a tied ball game, Tayshaun makes the defensive compliment to Derek Fisher's 0.04 - the block on Reggie Miller.

The Pistons maintain that if not for Tayshaun Prince in the 2004-05 regular season, they do not win 54 games. His last-second dunk in overtime over Emeka Okafor for a 126-125. After the Utah, 64-62 game, the Pistons travel to Atlanta and need overtime to beat the Atlanta Hawks. Prince just happens to set his career high in points (31) and hits back-to-back jumpers to put the game out of reach.



Plus, I think it means something that Dumars couldn't hold on to one of them, while Buford secured both of his diamonds-in-the-rough with long term deals. And finally, neither of those players could EVER give the greatest power forward of all time a run for his money for Finals MVP.

This was a function of money. All the Pistons could extend Memo Okur were his early bird rights, the same number as the MLE. The Pistons had signed Okur to the standard 2nd-round pick contract which is 2 years long. The Pistons were maintaining financial flexibility to steal a talent of a salary-dumping team. The 2002 and 2003 teams were slightly over the cap in order to use the MLE, but the team went under every summer Dumars had room, including 2004. The cap space (Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, Lindsey Hunter) had been used to get Rasheed Wallace.

It was either Mehmet Okur or Rasheed Wallace. Dumars extended the largest monetary contract that he could (38 million) but the Jazz offered him a larger contract (50 million). It's not that the Pistons didn't believe in Okur, or didn't know he was good, the Pistons simply couldn't afford to keep him AND Rasheed. Who would you pick in an either/or situation? Dumars two weeks later signs Antonio McDyess. He then traded Corliss Williamson so that the Pistons wouldn't face this situation with Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince.


And as a parting shot, one of the biggest reasons that the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals was that the Lakers had to run the Western Conference gauntlet and were dealt a crippling injury in the championship series. Who knows, maybe Dumars was .4 seconds away from relative obscurity.

Relative obscurity? The Pistons finished the season winning 20 of their final 24 games (5 straight opponents under 70 points), they beat the Two-Time Conference Champion New Jersey Nets, the first team not in the Western Conference to do so since their reign began in 2002 (27-5 vs. East in playoffs), and beat the number one team in the league (61-win Indiana Pacers).

Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Corliss Williamson, Mike James, Mehmet Okur, Lindsey Hunter...Let's just say the Spurs would've had a team to deal with, just like they did last year.

[leemajors]

I always thought it was:

"Cuz the world don't groove to the beat of just one drum ..."


Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you, may not be right for some.
A man is born, he's a man of means.
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.
But they got, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
Everybody's got a special kind of story
Everybody finds a way to shine,
It don't matter that you got not alot
So what,
They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine.
And together we'll be fine....
Because it takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.
Yes it does.
It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.


and with that, i have proved more about something than anyone else in this long, long thread that will not die.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think the piss-tons shouldnt be takin any props for drafting okur, he panned out on the jazz, not the pisstons.

[leemajors]

i think childish jokes involving urine are petty. they recognized his potential and drafted him. they chose not to keep him, that has nothing to do with evaluating his talent.

[Brutalis]

i think the piss-tons shouldnt be takin any props for drafting okur, he panned out on the jazz, not the pisstons.
they should be kicking themselves in the head for letting him go so easily

[Darrin]

they should be kicking themselves in the head for letting him go so easily

I will say again: The Pistons knew what he was - director of foreign scouting Tony Ranzone has known Mehmet Okur since he was 15-years-old. He stuffed him in a league that no one scouts so that whatever team he worked for could draft him (at the time Dallas).

On draft day 2001, Dumars had a similar workout with Okur to his high-profile lottery-day Darko Milicic workout in New York. The Pistons immediately drafted him. The Pistons said before 2002-03 that he would be a "lottery pick" if Memo had come out a year later. They left him overseas for a year to see what he could do.

Larry Brown and Joe Dumars had a meeting with Memo shortly after the Rasheed trade that he still had a future with the team. The Pistons envisioned Darko and Memo as the twin towers of the future. Dumars took it hard when he left.

In his rookie season, Okur took over for Zelly Rebraca when he went down with heart palpatations in December of 2002. He was the Pistons seventh man, ahead of even Jon Barry and just as many minutes as Mike Curry, the Pistons starting small forward. The Pistons saw his combination of size, shooting, and skills as a more agile version of Bill Laimbeer. He had this patented fake at the foul line, put the ball on the floor and slam it home move. There's a strong Turkish presence in metro Detroit - he had his own cheering section.

The Oakland Press after the first preseason game he had put a headline up:

"Memo to Carlisle: Play Okur."

Memo contributed 18 points and 11 boards starting in place of Ben Wallace who was attending to the death of his mother just before the All-Star Break in 2003. This was a game where Tayshaun had 10 and 6, too.

Joe Dumars talked to the Detroit News afterwards and said: "How 'bout are rookies, huh?" He playfully added "Turns out these guys can play." It's partly Tayshaun Prince, but Mehmet Okur, too, that caused a lot of criticism for Rick Carlisle in this town.

With Ben Wallace sitting out the final 6 games of 2003 because of a knee injury suffered against the Spurs at the Palace, Mehmet Okur started in Wallace's place (10.2 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 1.71 apg, 1.71 bpg). The Pistons played a double-overtime game in Memphis clinched back-to-back Division titles since 1989 and 1990. If not for Memo (13 points, 12 rebounds) hitting two huge threes in the first overtime, the Pistons don't win that game. His free throws iced the game that gave the Pistons the number one seed in the Conference.

In early 2003-04, in 26 MINUTES, Okur overcame a 3-11 shooting night to grab 18 REBOUNDS and 4 BLOCKED SHOTS.

To which Memo quipped: ''This was my dream come true. I had more rebounds than Ben (Wallace had 15),'' Okur said. ``I just felt great tonight. I've been pushing myself very hard, and I feel like I brought us a lot of energy tonight.''

For the 30 games or so before the Rasheed Wallace trade, the Pistons starting center was Mehmet Okur. He was a power forward, however, and that is why the Rasheed transaction was made. It's also why LB was forcing Darko Milicic to learn the center position - the power forward of the future was Mehmet Okur.

The Pistons knew who he was, and they knew what they lost the day he signed with the Jazz. Because Rasheed Wallace accounts for 18 million in 2003-04, his contract accounts for double that until he's re-signed to a contract or his bird rights are waived. If the Pistons waive Rasheed's bird rights, they could've matched Okur's offer, but it would mean the Pistons would have to sign Rasheed Wallace with the 4.4 million dollar Mid-Level Exception, the same financial package a place like New York or Philadelphia could offer him.

It was Mehmet Okur or Rasheed Wallace. Today, from a defensive standpoint, I would still choose Rasheed if in Dumars' position.

[JamStone]

they should be kicking themselves in the head for letting him go so easily


If re-signing Robert Horry meant you would not be able to keep Tim Duncan, would you have the Spurs re-sign Robert Horry???

That's why the Pistons let Mehmet Okur go to the Jazz. If the Pistons had spent the money Utah offered Okur, they would have not had enough cap space to re-sign Rasheed Wallace. Dumars felt Rasheed Wallace was more important to the success of the team than Mehmet Okur. Dumars still wish he could have kept both. But, those are the type of tough decisions a good GM has to make in the salary cap era of the NBA.

[FreshPrince22]

The Pistons knew what Memo was. I remember Michael Curry saying from day 1 he'd be an all-star. He clearly showed early on that he was going to be a very good player. There were a few problems though...

1. Larry Brown hated him. At the time, he was supposed to be our coach for a few more years, and they didn't get along. Larry would DNP him for absolutely no reason at all at random times.

2. With Ben and Sheed here he knew his chances of being are starter was zero. Sheed was re-signed for 5 years, and Ben is a lifer.

3. $$$. We didn't have the cash to sign him to a big time deal the same summer as re-signing Rasheed, and the summer before extending Ben Wallace, and Tayshaun.

4. Darko was/is the future. He was the priority

[conqueso]

If re-signing Robert Horry meant you would not be able to keep Tim Duncan, would you have the Spurs re-sign Robert Horry???

That's why the Pistons let Mehmet Okur go to the Jazz. If the Pistons had spent the money Utah offered Okur, they would have not had enough cap space to re-sign Rasheed Wallace. Dumars felt Rasheed Wallace was more important to the success of the team than Mehmet Okur. Dumars still wish he could have kept both. But, those are the type of tough decisions a good GM has to make in the salary cap era of the NBA.

This is just a minor point, but no one has mentioned it yet, so I think I'll throw it in.

A lot of us are criticizing Dumars for letting Okur go in free agency. Some people respond that it's what he had to do in light of the Pistons' other financial obligations. And that's a valid point. But one thing that makes Buford better is that he never puts himself in a position where he has to let go of an amazing prospect in order to re-sign his other players. (Of course Buford let Brown go, but, as much as I love him, Brown <<<< Okur). Buford looks far into the future, knows who's going to command what kind of contract at what point in time, and plans for it. He doesn't get stuck in situations where he loses the 7th man on a championship team with a bright future to free agency because "we can't offer him enough money." He let SJax go to Atlanta, and the reasons for that are similar to what you guys have been saying about Mehmet, but Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, and I think that losing SJax didn't hurt as much as losing Okur. I mean, Pistons last year with Okur would have smoked the Spurs. Plus, I think it always says something about a player and an organization when they choose to go somewhere else because of minutes and money. But again, this is just a minor point. Props to Dumars for bringing Okur in in the first place.

[leemajors]

mcdyess was pretty good vs us last year, i wouldn't say they would have smoked us with okur instead... and sjax would not have wanted to be off the bench to let menu start

[JamStone]

This is just a minor point, but no one has mentioned it yet, so I think I'll throw it in.

A lot of us are criticizing Dumars for letting Okur go in free agency. Some people respond that it's what he had to do in light of the Pistons' other financial obligations. And that's a valid point. But one thing that makes Buford better is that he never puts himself in a position where he has to let go of an amazing prospect in order to re-sign his other players. (Of course Buford let Brown go, but, as much as I love him, Brown <<<< Okur). Buford looks far into the future, knows who's going to command what kind of contract at what point in time, and plans for it. He doesn't get stuck in situations where he loses the 7th man on a championship team with a bright future to free agency because "we can't offer him enough money." He let SJax go to Atlanta, and the reasons for that are similar to what you guys have been saying about Mehmet, but Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, and I think that losing SJax didn't hurt as much as losing Okur. I mean, Pistons last year with Okur would have smoked the Spurs. Plus, I think it always says something about a player and an organization when they choose to go somewhere else because of minutes and money. But again, this is just a minor point. Props to Dumars for bringing Okur in in the first place.


Your point has some merit, but then again, after losing Stephen Jackson, the following season, the Spurs lost in the conference semi-finals. After losing Mehmet Okur, the Pistons went back to the NBA Finals, and the following year have the best record in the league at the halfway point of the season.

How you laud Buford is similar to how Pistons fans praise Joe Dumars. You state Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, well, Joe Dumars was prepared to lose Okur as well. He had scouted Antonio McDyess the entire 2003-04 season and nabbed him with the MLE. Last year McDyess had a better playoffs than Okur did in the previoius season.

And, losing Okur was more of a product of the the old CBA than the preparation of Joe Dumars. Second round draft picks could be signed by other teams more easily because the teams that drafted them couldn't go way over the cap to re-sign them. They didn't have their Bird rights after two years. Now, suppose that Denver offered Ginobili an outrageous contract that the Spurs couldn't afford. It would have been a similar situation. The Spurs let Stephen Jackson go in order to keep Manu Ginobili. The Pistons did not want to let Rasheed Wallace go. When Utah offered Mehmet over $50 million, it was a done deal. A combination of the structure of the CBA, Mehmet's decision to take the better deal, and Joe Dumars' decision to keep Rasheed Wallace. GMs make tough decisions all the time. While keeping Mehmet Okur would have been nice, it was not feasible and yet the Pistons have been just fine anyway.

In two years, Buford will have some problems with his salary cap as well, when only three of his players (Duncan, Parker, Manu) will make over $38 million, when the salary cap will be at about $52. All NBA GMs face the problem sooner or later. The Pistons will be in a simlar situation when they have to re-sign Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups.

I can understand the criticism that Joe Dumars was unable to keep Mehmet Okur if you don't understand that the Pistons financially could not make it happen. The Spurs were very fortunate that David Robinson retired when the Spurs needed to re-sign a Manu Ginobili. Some good planning, but also good fortune.

[Darrin]

This is just a minor point, but no one has mentioned it yet, so I think I'll throw it in.

A lot of us are criticizing Dumars for letting Okur go in free agency. Some people respond that it's what he had to do in light of the Pistons' other financial obligations. And that's a valid point. But one thing that makes Buford better is that he never puts himself in a position where he has to let go of an amazing prospect in order to re-sign his other players. (Of course Buford let Brown go, but, as much as I love him, Brown <<<< Okur). Buford looks far into the future, knows who's going to command what kind of contract at what point in time, and plans for it. He doesn't get stuck in situations where he loses the 7th man on a championship team with a bright future to free agency because "we can't offer him enough money." He let SJax go to Atlanta, and the reasons for that are similar to what you guys have been saying about Mehmet, but Buford already had Jackson's replacement signed and in development, and I think that losing SJax didn't hurt as much as losing Okur. I mean, Pistons last year with Okur would have smoked the Spurs. Plus, I think it always says something about a player and an organization when they choose to go somewhere else because of minutes and money. But again, this is just a minor point. Props to Dumars for bringing Okur in in the first place.


Before I reply to this, I would like to reiterate that we are talking about the league's two best GMs, and arguing over who's better. So for as much effort as I put into defending Joe Dumars, I would defend Buford with the same forceful intent if they were attempting to say Rod Thorn was better. I have a great deal of respect for Buford and what he's done with the Spurs.

The situation, if you look at it, the Pistons were prepared for Okur's signing up until February 19, 2004. This was a short-term risk. The Pistons had traded Cliff Robinson with 5 million left on his deal, and Mike Curry with 3 million left on his deal for two expiring contracts (Bob Sura and Lindsey Hunter) the previous summer. The Pistons also had Zeljko Rebraca coming off the books, another 4.5 million.

This would've given the Pistons a good nine million in cap space factoring in salary increases, more than enough to match Utah's offer of 50 million dollars over six years.

Dumars gambled to make his team a Championship contender with Rasheed Wallace instead of waiting for Memo to fully develop, which he still hasn't done. Losing Okur to get that done was a risk he had to take or watch the season flushed down the toilet (34-22, 6 losses in 7 games before Rasheed). He actually used Okur as a reason that Jon Barry wasn't brought back into the fold in the summer of 2003 - Barry wasn't going to play on a one-year deal, and he wanted too much money.

The Pistons have been planning for Ben Wallace's free agency for some time now. The Corliss Williamson for Derrick Coleman and Amal McCaskill deal from a year ago last August, two players that played a sum total of 5 games for the Pistons, happened to clear cap space for numbers 3 and 22. They signed out of the bargain bin this past summer with Maurice Evans (4-years, 7.5 million) and Dale Davis (2 years, 4.2 million) when guys like Michael Finley and especially Latrell Sprewell were making overatures to join the team.

Drafting Darko Milicic was the most forward-thinking move of Dumars' career. He wasn't looking for a compliment to Ben Wallace, he saw a replacement for him. Amir Johnson, Mr. Basketball in California last season, has played only 4 minutes this year; he's riding the pine with Darko and Jason Maxiell. When you look down that bench, you don't see washed-up veterans like a Christian Laettner or a Charles Oakley. You see young, 19- to 22-year-old players that are growing up in a farm system the likes of Indiana in the late 1990s (Jonathan Bender, Al Harrington, Jeff Foster, Brimoz Brezec, Austin Croshere).

And all this crying over Memo Okur, 48-hours after he left, Antonio McDyess signed on the dotted line, a move that gave the Pistons more cap flexibility (he's getting half of Memo's salary and allowed Williamson, 18 million over 3 years, to come off the books).

[conqueso]

Drafting Darko Milicic was the most forward-thinking move of Dumars' career. He wasn't looking for a compliment to Ben Wallace, he saw a replacement for him. Amir Johnson, Mr. Basketball in California last season, has played only 4 minutes this year; he's riding the pine with Darko and Jason Maxiell. When you look down that bench, you don't see washed-up veterans like a Christian Laettner or a Charles Oakley. You see young, 19- to 22-year-old players that are growing up in a farm system the likes of Indiana in the late 1990s (Jonathan Bender, Al Harrington, Jeff Foster, Brimoz Brezec, Austin Croshere).

Responding to that point, we'll forget about the 7 foot tall question mark that is Darko Milici and instead assume that he will turn out to be a J. O'Neal type player instead of a Sam Bowie or Kwame Brown type player. I think there are many problems with drafting someone this high as a long term project. For one, how long will he put up with being the 12th man? Wouldn't he rather play for a team that will pay him more and guarantee (many) more minutes? Won't that influence his free agency decisions, or possibly cause him to demand a trade? Now I know that it was Portland that gave up on JO and not the other way around, but the essential point is that it took a change of scenery and a great (ex-Piston) coach to turn him into the player he has become. Dice and Sheed are both on at least two more years (although the last year of Dice's contract is player option), so where are Darko's minutes going to come from? Plus, Darko still has two more years left on his contract ($5.2 mil and $6.8 mil), and that's $1 million dollars per minute per game. How long before the Pistons realize that the cost-benefit analysis doesn't favor keeping Darko around?

Not to knock Dumars, because I don't really think he's retarded for making this gamble, but I definitely think it's very risky; not only is Darko's "upside" or "ceiling" or whatever extremely uncertain, it is questionable whether he will even be around if he ever develops into a player that could possibly replace Ben Wallace. If he becomes a dominant big man, and if he stays with the Pistons, Dumars will be seen as a genius. But those are two pretty big "if"s, and based on the his progress so far and the free agent climate of the NBA, I don't think it's likely that everything will pan out in Detroit's favor.

I guess drafting Darko is technically a "forward-thinking move," but maybe the problem is that it's looking too far into the future. It's not like Manu Ginobili, who was drafted in '99 and given three years to develop in the "minor leagues" while his rights were retained by the Spurs, then brought in and integrated over two years to fill a hole in the starting lineup. Darko rode the pine for two years under LB (4.7 mpg and 6.9 mpg), and is still riding the pine this year (5.7 mpg). When is he going to develop his game? When is he going to be a contributor in the lineup? Two years from now? Three? More? Is there any guarantee that the Pistons will be able to retain his rights that long? Or will he ache for money and minutes and jump ship? Will he want to live up to his billing on a shittier team where he can play more often? Will he get a chip on his shoulder about not being given a chance in Detroit? These are all very important questions, and it would take some extraordinary circumstances for Darko to prove all the critics wrong and reveal Dumars to be a genius.

But, you know, time will tell.

[Rummpd]

Flip = Flop

nuff said.

Why would Spurs fans be more scared of him than Larry Brown - give me a break. Possessions slow down in the post-season. If Pistons win it will be inspite of him period.

[zeleni]

And Pistons are beggining to crumble...

[SAGambler]

WGAF about Detroit.

Nets > Pistons.

Spurs in 4.

Everyone is dismissing the Cavs, who could in fact play a huge part in the East. Lebron is rolling along with 30 plus almost every night. The Cavs have the same number of divisional wins as the Pistons. The Cavs just put an end to the Nets big winning streak.

If I was the Pistons, and I was going to worry about someone in my conference, I think right now it would be the Cavs.

Yeah, I know, Lebron hasn't proved he is playoff ready yet, but the second half of the season, he, like Mello, seems to have brought his game up another notch in the maturing department.

[JamStone]

And Pistons are beggining to crumble...


To you ...

Beginning to crumble = A 25 point blowout of an in-conference and in-division rival playing for playoff position

You sure?

[Darrin]

Everyone is dismissing the Cavs, who could in fact play a huge part in the East. Lebron is rolling along with 30 plus almost every night. The Cavs have the same number of divisional wins as the Pistons. The Cavs just put an end to the Nets big winning streak.

If I was the Pistons, and I was going to worry about someone in my conference, I think right now it would be the Cavs.

Yeah, I know, Lebron hasn't proved he is playoff ready yet, but the second half of the season, he, like Mello, seems to have brought his game up another notch in the maturing department.

They don't play defense, and that's why the Pistons don't fear them. Because they won't stop Tayshaun from going for 17 a night, Chauncey for 20 and Rip for 25.

Name me the last time the Pistons had an edge in playoff experience and lost the series. It hasn't happened with this squad. They lost to the Celtics in 2002 when it was a tossup, the Nets in 2003 when they had been to the Finals the year before, and the Spurs in 2005.

Meanwhile, very talented but inexperienced teams like Miami and Indiana, the Pistons have handled them.

It's not just their run, or talent, or scheme, it's all of those things combined with experience that make the Nets more imposing than the Cavaliers. The simple fact they are there is enough for them. Everything else is gravy, and they will be elated if they win a series. Teams have a tendency to relax when they reach a certain point and face their first adversity after fulfilling their goals.

[FearDaFro]

Oh yeah we're royally crumbling :rolleyes

[Vinnie_Johnson]

Pistons are folding up like a house of cards now. I hope they can hold on and make the playoffs.

[Darrin]

Pistons are folding up like a house of cards now. I hope they can hold on and make the playoffs.

Me too. I'm really worried about this team. I think they are only going to win 65 games this season, and that's only 2 more games than the franchise mark. I thought they were headed for 70 wins and 7 more than the franchise record. This team sucks. I want Larry Brown and Corliss Williamson back. :rolleyes

[Vinnie_Johnson]

We just haven't been the same since Darko left.

[anthologyct]

To you ...

Beginning to crumble = A 25 point blowout of an in-conference and in-division rival playing for playoff position

You sure?


Not just a blowout, but blowout on National TV! Sending a statement to the league ........... Seems like we've done that in every game this season on National TV, except for that game against the Cavs

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Pistons are Scary...

Let's just keep our fingers crossed and hope that Flip shines best in Regular Season.

[Extra Stout]

15 losses... you know, in the NFL that's terrible.

[conqueso]

bump


So...who here blames Flip for the Pistons' collapse against the Heat? I know I do. But I'm having a hard time figuring out why. Was it because he didn't have the experience to calm the team when shit was hitting the fan in the fourth? Was it because the Pistons took (and missed) so many 3s that Larry Brown would have never let them take? Was it because Flip didn't preach defense like a broken record, so the Pistons didn't have solid D as their main focus and objective? Was it because he let his team get too cocky? Was it because he got outperformed by a vastly superior coach? All of these? None?

[Lp26]

all of the above . . .

and more

:depressed

[TDMVPDPOY]

you guys better get rid of that douchebag from minnesota, the losing aura is kickin in.

[Tek_XX]

I guess Larry Brown was missed

Yeah i'm glad the pistons get to join in our misery.

[RON ARTEST]

i wouldnt be surprised to see some of that starting five broken up. and flip needs to go for sure.

[East Coast Babe]

I'll agree that Flip needs to go, but I disagree about the starting five. Apparently it took the coach too, but part of their success to me has been their chemistry together. Just need a better coach!

[sickdsm]

Now aren't you Piston fans going to love the offseasaon when everyone can act so cocky as you guys were?


At least we'll be right.............

[himat]

Now aren't you Piston fans going to love the offseasaon when everyone can act so cocky as you guys were?


At least we'll be right.............

Hey dumbass the Pistons didn't feel cocky last summer because we got our hearts broken by the Spurs in Game 7 you moron. Plus it's prety hard to have a 60 win season, and win a championship with a coach in his first year with a team. Hopefully Ben resigns, Pistons get some good players this summer, the bench plays, and Spurs vs Pistons will happen in the Finals.

[bdubya]

I'll agree that Flip needs to go, but I disagree about the starting five. Apparently it took the coach too, but part of their success to me has been their chemistry together. Just need a better coach!

After the firings of a coach who turned the franchise from 32-50 losers to a 50-32 defensive powerhouse making it to the conference finals, and a coach who took them from that level to two finals appearances and one title, we're going to sack the coach who, in his first year, got us back to the conference finals and set the franchise record for victories along the way? Yeah, the top coaches in the league would really be beating Dumars' door down trying to get an interview.

IMHO, Flip has to get another year. Most of the core pieces of this team didn't catch fire in their first year here, 'Sheed excepted. Ben, Rip, Chauncey, Tay...none of them were setting the league on fire out of the gate. Might be worth looking for a good defensive coordinator, but Flip has to get at least one more year to show he can expand his repertoire, integrate his bench, and figure out how to defend in the new NBA.

[Bob Lanier]

In other words, a wasted season. We already know that Flip can't or won't do any of those things.

Still, your point is well taken - it's just unfortunate that Flip very likely will cost the Pistons a chance of ever being champions again.

[sickdsm]

In other words, a wasted season. We already know that Flip can't or won't do any of those things.

Still, your point is well taken - it's just unfortunate that Flip very likely will cost the Pistons a chance of ever being champions again.




I also pointed that out that barring a shakeup, this roster will have its last legitamate title shot this year. If Dumars is as smart as he's made out to be, he won't wait before he realizes what Sac and Minny took about a decade to realize in there coaches.

[sickdsm]

Hey dumbass the Pistons didn't feel cocky last summer because we got our hearts broken by the Spurs in Game 7 you moron. Plus it's prety hard to have a 60 win season, and win a championship with a coach in his first year with a team. Hopefully Ben resigns, Pistons get some good players this summer, the bench plays, and Spurs vs Pistons will happen in the Finals.



No, it was a big male chicken fest in here when it was Piston fan crowing about there chances at 72 wins. Maybe you don't remember because you were dishing up crow for everyone to eat.


At least you're not letting it go to waste, enjoy your dinner.

[WalterBenitez]

A tired vet team, with weak coaching not developing the bench is for me the reason why DET is out of finals, I think the 5 boys' unit from DET was amazing during the regular season but got tired playing at Playoffs level.

Not having developed guys like Arroyo, Darko (traded) even Delfino ... also considering the very few minutes that starters rested during playoff was a big issue; finally a team that consider coach as an accesory that is necessary rigth there, with players not respecting Flip is sth I didn't liked.

Anyway DET is out.

[conqueso]

LB says that he won't accept a buy-out, so the Knicks will have to fire him if they want him out. According to all the "dead man walking" talk, it sounds like that's going to happen. Is there any chance in hell that Dumars would swallow his pride and try to get LB to come back to the Pistons? I, for one would love to see that, although none of the Pistons fans around here would agree with me. I don't blame him (or the refs) for Detroit's game 7 Finals loss, and I think he did a better job managing the intangibles than Flip does. For example, LB would have seen the virtue of home court advantage, but he wouldn't have played his starters so many minutes to get it. Like Pop, he would see that it helps a lot to have HCA, but it helps much more to be a good road team, so LB would have focused on that aspect more.

I know it's a longshot, but I think it would be great. Maybe the Pistons players who felt they needed a new voice in the locker room have realized that they took LB for granted and should welcome him back. But there are still plenty of bridges that need to be mended or whatever, so maybe it couldn't ever work out.

[jochhejaam]

Flip and the Pistons were rolling right along (70-20) until Rasheed ran his mouth and screwed up his ankle. I see no reason for any heads to roll here.

The players need to get back on the same page.

[JamStone]

LB says that he won't accept a buy-out, so the Knicks will have to fire him if they want him out. According to all the "dead man walking" talk, it sounds like that's going to happen. Is there any chance in hell that Dumars would swallow his pride and try to get LB to come back to the Pistons? I, for one would love to see that, although none of the Pistons fans around here would agree with me. I don't blame him (or the refs) for Detroit's game 7 Finals loss, and I think he did a better job managing the intangibles than Flip does. For example, LB would have seen the virtue of home court advantage, but he wouldn't have played his starters so many minutes to get it. Like Pop, he would see that it helps a lot to have HCA, but it helps much more to be a good road team, so LB would have focused on that aspect more.

I know it's a longshot, but I think it would be great. Maybe the Pistons players who felt they needed a new voice in the locker room have realized that they took LB for granted and should welcome him back. But there are still plenty of bridges that need to be mended or whatever, so maybe it couldn't ever work out.


According to local reports last summer, Joe Dumars wanted Larry Brown to return this past season, so he wouldn't really be swallowing his pride. It was the owner of the Pistons, Bill Davidson, who wanted Larry Brown out. And, it would be Bill Davidson who would have to swallow his pride. And, that is unlikely. He has been a great owner, but one thing he does is hold a grudge. This was the same owner who missed Isiah Thomas' recognition ceremony this year but didn't miss any of the other Pistons legends ceremonies who were also honored. He still hasn't let his grudge with Isiah go. And, he would not allow Larry Brown to return.

[JamStone]

sickdsm,

You thought the Timberwolves were going to be a playoff team.

At least the Pistons made it to the Conference Finals, you shithead.

Why are you puffing out your chest?

You're a fucking fool.

[sickdsm]

Hahahaha, the general consensus was that Detroit was going to win or let alone contend for a title, judging from their round two performance, they did neither. I said all along they would meltdown. That shit is like predicting the first ice age, or at least that SA's letdown would be Popovich deciding to play smallball in the playoffs preseason. Two things that would have been greeted with a hearty laugh.


The wolves were supposed to be a really shitty team. I predicted they would be the worst of the playoff teams. If they hadn't traded wally and purposely tanked games at the end of the year, do you think it would have been a far off prediction?


My point all along is that ECF is a HUGE dissapointment for the Pistons, even before last offseason began. You don't see me puffing out my chest about being right about the Clippers being a major power when Kori did not even rank them in the top 12 in the WC, because that's not really a Nostradomous moment. This is.

If it wasn't a disspointment why would you be so jaded?

[JamStone]

Not jaded.

Definitely ticked off the Pistons lost and absolutely disappointed. Not jaded.

My problem is with you making untrue statements like most of us Pistons fans were on Flip's jock this whole entire season. The truth is, most Pistons fans were happy how the regular season was going and how Flip was coaching then, but WE WERE wary of what might happen in the post season. We were willing to wait and find out, but we were wary. Positive and confident in the players, but unsure and cautiously confident with the coaching.

You make it sound like every fucking Pistons fan were wearing Flip Saunders underoos.

Sure, Pistons fans were very hopeful and some confident and cocky that they would win the title this year, especially after the great start. But, it was not due to the coaching. And, I dare you to go dig up all of the posts from Pistons fans that say Flip is great without any concern. You won't find many if any at all.

Sure, you were right about Flip melting down in the playoffs. And?

What do you want? For the most part, Pistons fans were just hopeful that things would be different with the different set of players.

NBA title was the goal. A conference finals disappointment the outcome.

You tooting your horn about being right about Flip is fine. I understand how a fan who has never really experienced winning can be so ... ummm ... "jaded."

[sickdsm]

...........Once again, play the "my sports team is better than yours" card. Like that hurts. The wolves are weeding out there weak links. LOL, maybe you'll blame it on Dumars and take McHale's contract off our hands too, then they'd have cut the fat. But congratulations on making fun of a franchise that's been around since '89. Nevermind no team that's expanded after that has won it but Miami WILL have a chance thanks to............Minnesota's reject coach.


Piston fans may very well all been wary of Flip. But they sure the hell didn't show it. Don't confuse the two.

[REDLION#22]

Pistons suck simple as a pie

2004-rolled through an injured EC and defeated a phisicaly and mentally ill laker team

2005-easy schedule cuz of the brawl,free ride to the finals due to the wade injury.still they lost to the healthy spurs...

2006-EXPOSED by the cavs KILLED by the heat

ITS A FACT THEY SIMPLY CANT WIN WITHOUT THE OPPONENT BEING INJURED

[awmyplace]

Red..Are you're sooo funny. :)