Adultery by the born-again

[spurster]

In the Bible, Jesus makes strong statements against divorce, asserting that it is equivalent to adultery. Consider these statistics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/opinion/19coontz.html

True or false. Born-again Christians are just as likely to divorce as other Americans.

35% of born-again Christians in this country have divorced, almost the same as the 37% of atheists and agnostics who have divorced - and 23% of born-again Christians have divorced twice. Among Pentocostals, the divorce rate is more than 40%. The region with the highest divorce rate is the Bible Belt.

[braeden0613]

Well Jesus actually said that divorcing then remarrying (except for marital unfaithfulness) is adultery. But the statistic still speaks for itself.

[George W Bush]

Why is nobody talkin' in here?

[Yonivore]

We all fall short in the eyes of the Lord.

[boutons_]

right-wing red-state red-neckers fall a lot shorter. :)

[smeagol]

right-wing red-state red-neckers fall a lot shorter. :)
Is that suppose to be sarcasm?

[2centsworth]

In the Bible, Jesus makes strong statements against divorce, asserting that it is equivalent to adultery. Consider these statistics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/opinion/19coontz.html

True or false. Born-again Christians are just as likely to divorce as other Americans.

35% of born-again Christians in this country have divorced, almost the same as the 37% of atheists and agnostics who have divorced - and 23% of born-again Christians have divorced twice. Among Pentocostals, the divorce rate is more than 40%. The region with the highest divorce rate is the Bible Belt.
I think it's an excellent observation. Modern day churchs are full of people who profess to be Christian but act no different than the rest of the world.

My explanation is that most people who claim to be Christian are not. They are false converts of the faith. To be a Christian means more than just saying you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, it requires a turning from Sin. Romans 6 is my favorite chapter in the entire bible because it deals with this in detail.

So in a nutshell many people who claim to be Christian are not eventhough they go to church.

[Phenomanul]

I think it's an excellent observation. Modern day churchs are full of people who profess to be Christian but act no different than the rest of the world.

My explanation is that most people who claim to be Christian are not. They are false converts of the faith. To be a Christian means more than just saying you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, it requires a turning from Sin. Romans 6 is my favorite chapter in the entire bible because it deals with this in detail.

So in a nutshell many people who claim to be Christian are not eventhough they go to church.


:tu :tu

Critics will always want to point the finger at these "black sheep" rather than to point out all of the 'good' done by people with true character, integrity, and a defined moral slate.

Those who relish pointing out the errors of their 'brethren' do so in an act of self justification, and many times with blatant contempt and disdain toward anything 'spiritual'.

[Oh, Gee!!]

:tu :tu

Critics will always want to point the finger at these "black sheep" rather than to point out all of the 'good' done by people with true character, integrity, and a defined moral slate.

Those who relish pointing out the errors of their 'brethren' do so in an act of self justification, and many times with blatant contempt and disdain toward anything 'spiritual'.

or maybe, critics want to point out to the holier-than-thou bastards that Christians and religious zealots are no better than the rest of us.

[Phenomanul]

or maybe, critics want to point out to the holier-than-thou bastards that Christians and religious zealots are no better than the rest of us.


A valid argument.... except that the 'critics' tend to lump every Christian into their hatred... and wrongly so for many people unfortunately. Stereotypes go both ways buddy.

[BigZak]

To be a Christian means more than just saying you accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior,...



you are right. saying it is one thing. meaning it another.

as for the topic, people like to point other hypocrites to alleviate their own guilt.

my original thought to the topic was "who says they are born again?" or "who says they are true christians?"

but we are all sinners. some of us are just trying harder to stop.

[Peter]

Is it that hard to proclaim to be a Christian if you believe doing so will bring you more material goodies?

Anyways, the adultery hypocrisy illustrates how people don't get it. People are ready to rise up against homos but somehow adultery or divorce for that matter doesn't earn the same stigma from a faith perspective.

[2centsworth]

Is it that hard to proclaim to be a Christian if you believe doing so will bring you more material goodies?

Anyways, the adultery hypocrisy illustrates how people don't get it. People are ready to rise up against homos but somehow adultery or divorce for that matter doesn't earn the same stigma from a faith perspective.
You and the stereotypes.

No doubt the church has a problem with the God will give you a good life crowd.

[Peter]

If the stereotype fits...

[2centsworth]

If the stereotype fits...
stereotyping is for the ignorant. I expected a little more from you.

[Peter]

So the hypocrisy does not exist?

[2centsworth]

So the hypocrisy does not exist?
hypocrisy exist, but you seemed to making a blanket statement about Christians in general. I've always been taught stereotyping is ignorant, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Peter]

If the hypocrisy is rampant enough, a blanket statement is as good as any. When you factor in divorce, adultery and premarital sex among the saved I fail to see how such an observation is "ignorant".

[Spurminator]

Divorce is high among Christians because the rate of early marriages is also high. I believe the reasons for this are threefold:

- Pressure to marry early

Cultural... Christian families value marriage in such a way that it often puts pressure on young adults to meet their "spouse" by a certain time in their lives, often earlier than most non-Christians feel they should be looking to settle down.

- Pressure to abstain

Many young Christians try so hard to have pure and moral relationships, fighting human urges along the way... They don't live together or even spend the night together, and thus they don't get to know each other as well as many other couples do before they are married. This often leads to quick marriages when the two are not ready for that step.

This is not to say I think every couple should sleep together before marriage, but I think the subconscious urges to do so often contribute to eventual failed marriages. I went to a conservative Christian University and saw this quite often.

- Pressure to marry the father of an unexpected child

Abortion is out of the question, and often so is raising a child as a single mother (at least as a young single mother). So "Shotgun Weddings" are frequent in Christian families, most often with poor Christian families, but not always... I've been to several weddings for my peers and found out later that the first child arrived six or seven months after the ceremony.

[Spurminator]

As for the divorce rate of "born again" Christians, his can often be explained by the fact that not all born-again Christians' newfound beliefs are shared by their spouses. And in most Christian beliefs, it is acceptable to divorce a spouse who stands in the way of your Christian walk.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu :tu

Critics will always want to point the finger at these "black sheep" rather than to point out all of the 'good' done by people with true character, integrity, and a defined moral slate.

Those who relish pointing out the errors of their 'brethren' do so in an act of self justification, and many times with blatant contempt and disdain toward anything 'spiritual'.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's rich! Throughout history catholics and christians alike have lied, judged and murdered in the name of their "spiritual" faith!

[Spurminator]

Congratulations on a completely irrelevant contribution to the discussion.

If you'd like to point out Christianity's crimes against humanity, there are plenty of opportunities to do so in the many "Islam vs. Christianity" threads.

This is about divorce rates.

[Dos]

actually divorce rates are higher in the jewish faith..

Variation in divorce rates by religion:

Religion % have been divorced

Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

[Dos]

oh yeah source... for those facts..

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

[Dos]

but it only matters to some in here to only bash born again christians..

[101A]

I have to wonder if those stats are for people who actually go to church, or who simply call themselves "Christian" - and the same for the Atheists/Agnostics.

If someone calls themselves a Christian, but does not live up to the commitment to live that way, including attending church for fellowship regularly, I would assume they would be predisposed to falter in their other commitments, as well.

[Trainwreck2100]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif That's rich! Throughout history catholics and christians alike have lied, judged and murdered in the name of their "spiritual" faith!

And throughout the years millions haven't, what's your point?

[Phenomanul]

In the Bible, Jesus makes strong statements against divorce, asserting that it is equivalent to adultery. Consider these statistics.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/opinion/19coontz.html

True or false. Born-again Christians are just as likely to divorce as other Americans.

35% of born-again Christians in this country have divorced, almost the same as the 37% of atheists and agnostics who have divorced - and 23% of born-again Christians have divorced twice. Among Pentocostals, the divorce rate is more than 40%. The region with the highest divorce rate is the Bible Belt.


Coming back to the source of the thread, I didn't realize this had come from the NYTimes. They have been known to alter their so-called demographics to make stories more controversial. Accept the numbers at your own risk.

Most of the people from my church have never been divorced.

[scott]

IIRC, the national divorce rate is somewhere around 47%... so where the hell are all the rest of the divorces coming from?

[Phenomanul]

IIRC, the national divorce rate is somewhere around 47%... so where the hell are all the rest of the divorces coming from?


I thought I had seen the 47% story recently.... which is why the numbers from the Times article don't add up.

[gtownspur]

people who aren't atheist, agnostic, or born-agains


finish your sentence.

or was it going to end in "are God's gift to mankind."

kind of oxymoronic isn't it. :lol

[gtownspur]

you really Never read all the posts on a page before you post do you?

finish your thought. Who is you. :lol

[scott]

people who aren't atheist, agnostic, or born-agains

Dos posted divorces rates of other religions... all 30% and below... and I seriously doubt Muslims in America are leading the charge with a huge divorce rate to raise the weighted average to 47% (probably not even possible, given the relatively small amount of Muslims in America).

[jochhejaam]

A couple things regarding the issue of adultery being prominent among Christians. 101A was correct to question the surveys relevance (it is what it is) because they have no way of examining the heart of a person. A very large portion of the population consider themselves Christians but I see a very small percentage of them that share much (if any) resemblance to the person Christ was and wants us to be.
It's a nice thought to believe that all who claim to be Christians are truthful but this is reality----> Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.' ” Matt 7:22
-Even though the false apostles claim to be Christians, even though they can perform signs and miracles, including casting out demons in the 'name of Jesus', Christ declares that he does not know them. Because of their lawlessness, their disregard for God's Holy Law, they are turned away from entering into the kingdom of heaven.


In light of these words it's not at all surprising that the survey came up with the numbers they did.

[Oh, Gee!!]

A very large portion of the population consider themselves Christians but I see a very small percentage of them that share much (if any) resemblance to the person Christ was and wants us to be.

They're called Republicans.

EDIT: Now that's a one-liner

[Guru of Nothing]

They're called Republicans.

EDIT: Now that's a one-liner

Bam!

[smeagol]

Bam!
:lol

GON is the king of witty one liners :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Peter]

A couple things regarding the issue of adultery being prominent among Christians. 101A was correct to question the surveys relevance (it is what it is) because they have no way of examining the heart of a person. A very large portion of the population consider themselves Christians but I see a very small percentage of them that share much (if any) resemblance to the person Christ was and wants us to be.
It's a nice thought to believe that all who claim to be Christians are truthful but this is reality----> Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.' ” Matt 7:22
-Even though the false apostles claim to be Christians, even though they can perform signs and miracles, including casting out demons in the 'name of Jesus', Christ declares that he does not know them. Because of their lawlessness, their disregard for God's Holy Law, they are turned away from entering into the kingdom of heaven.


In light of these words it's not at all surprising that the survey came up with the numbers they did.


I think it speaks to why it's easy to get the general public agitated about gays but not, say, adultery, extramarital sex and divorce. Somehow hetero sins are regarded as lesser than gay sins.

[Mr. Peabody]

I think it speaks to why it's easy to get the general public agitated about gays but not, say, adultery, extramarital sex and divorce. Somehow hetero sins are regarded as lesser than gay sins.

That and it's easier to get riled up about other people's sins.

Speaking out against adultery causes people to look at themselves and feel guilty.

Speaking out against homosexuals allows people to look at others and feel righteous.

[Peter]

Yeah, it's totally a numbers game. Homosexuals are of a significant number, but I doubt Kinsey had it pegged right. It's probably around 3% and no more than 5%.

[Guru of Nothing]

Among Pentocostals, the divorce rate is more than 40%. The region with the highest divorce rate is the Bible Belt.

Others have questioned the numbers, and rightfully so, but I can buy the Pentacostal numbers. I've dated two ex-Pentacostals. They both divorced because they did not want to share their bed with another woman.

Small sample I know, but it don't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

[xrayzebra]

They're called Republicans.

EDIT: Now that's a one-liner


Ah, Og, you are so un-kind. I don't really know about Republicans but us
conservatives try to be nice people.

[SA210]

Ah, Og, you are so un-kind. I don't really know about Republicans but us
conservatives try to be nice people.
It really shows in your support for people's death.

[xrayzebra]

^^Aren't you one of those that support abortion?

[SA210]

And where did you hear that?

[xrayzebra]

No Where, just thought I remembered you talking about it was okay. I could
be wrong. If I am wrong accept my apology.

[Mr. Peabody]

^^Aren't you one of those that support abortion?

I don't kow that anyone is actually in favor of or supports abortion. I think most people that label themselves as pro-choice are against the government making this tough decision for them.

But I do appreciate your attempt at framing the argument in such a fashion.

[xrayzebra]

^^No matter, we have gone over the abortion issue many times. No one ever
really wins in this discussion. I was just answering a statement with a question.
Like I said in a later post, I may have been mistaken (yeah I make mistakes sometimes). But I thought SA210 was pro-rights. But if not, I screwed up.

[Dos]

so why is it .. you can find a hundreds of books at christian bookstores about how divorce is wrong .. and hardly any books about how domestic abuse is wrong.. if the church is going to stand against sin .. it better put it's efforts into standing against every form of sin.......

[Phenomanul]

so why is it .. you can find a hundreds of books at christian bookstores about how divorce is wrong .. and hardly any books about how domestic abuse is wrong.. if the church is going to stand against sin .. it better put it's efforts into standing against every form of sin.......


Since when does the ' church' sanction or condone domestic abuse???

[jochhejaam]

so why is it .. you can find a hundreds of books at christian bookstores about how divorce is wrong .. and hardly any books about how domestic abuse is wrong.. if the church is going to stand against sin .. it better put it's efforts into standing against every form of sin.......
Dos, I know that many of these Christian books on divorce devote plenty of discussion regarding domestic violence. It's a given that they come out strongly against it.

[Dos]

joch if you want to read further on this subject I suggest you might want to check out the following site.. why is it a silent epidemic?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2004/005/11.68.html

The Silent Epidemic
Countless Christian women are battered every day. Here's how to respond if you or someone you love is abused.
By Corrie Cutrer

Her husband's comments were so routine that for 20 years, Brenda Branson didn't realize she was a victim of verbal and emotional abuse.

"You breathe too loud," her husband would tell her. "Your smile is silly. You look terrible. Don't you have anything better to wear?"

It wasn't until Brenda realized his comments weren't true that she approached him. And that's when he picked up a chair and hit her with it. Brenda knew she had to do something, so she went to her pastor. Unfortunately he wasn't equipped to handle domestic abuse; his suggestions about submitting to her husband only made her home life more difficult. "Our church didn't know what to do with us," Brenda says. "They just wanted the problem to go away."

Brenda got the help she needed by forming a support group with another domestic-violence victim. Then in 1995 she cofounded Focus Ministries, one of the few Christian organizations devoted to helping victims of domestic violence while also training churches on how they can assist members who are being abused.


You don't deserve what's happening to you. God doesn't approve of any man who beats, controls, or retaliates against his wife.

According to Detective Sgt. Don Stewart, a retired police officer who handled domestic violence cases for 25 years, one out of every four Christian couples experiences at least one episode of physical abuse within their marriage. In fact, battering is the single largest cause of injury to women—more than auto accidents, muggings, and rapes combined. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists reports that 3 to 4 million women are beaten in their homes every year. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, approximately 2,000 women are murdered every year by an intimate partner.

"Domestic violence has become an epidemic," says Brenda, who is no longer married to her husband. The enormity of the problem, combined with the fact law enforcement officials and church leaders often lack the skills to address it, led Don to author Refuge (New Hope), a book helping victims understand and flee from violence in their homes. "I consider Don to be a missionary who offers hope to hurting women and presents a wakeup call to the Christian community to get involved," says Brenda.

[jochhejaam]

joch if you want to read further on this subject I suggest you might want to check out the following site.. why is it a silent epidemic?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2004/005/11.68.html

The Silent Epidemic
Countless Christian women are battered every day. Here's how to respond if you or someone you love is abused.
By Corrie Cutrer

Her husband's comments were so routine that for 20 years, Brenda Branson didn't realize she was a victim of verbal and emotional abuse.

"You breathe too loud," her husband would tell her. "Your smile is silly. You look terrible. Don't you have anything better to wear?"

It wasn't until Brenda realized his comments weren't true that she approached him. And that's when he picked up a chair and hit her with it. Brenda knew she had to do something, so she went to her pastor. Unfortunately he wasn't equipped to handle domestic abuse; his suggestions about submitting to her husband only made her home life more difficult. "Our church didn't know what to do with us," Brenda says. "They just wanted the problem to go away."

Brenda got the help she needed by forming a support group with another domestic-violence victim. Then in 1995 she cofounded Focus Ministries, one of the few Christian organizations devoted to helping victims of domestic violence while also training churches on how they can assist members who are being abused.


You don't deserve what's happening to you. God doesn't approve of any man who beats, controls, or retaliates against his wife.

According to Detective Sgt. Don Stewart, a retired police officer who handled domestic violence cases for 25 years, one out of every four Christian couples experiences at least one episode of physical abuse within their marriage. In fact, battering is the single largest cause of injury to women—more than auto accidents, muggings, and rapes combined. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists reports that 3 to 4 million women are beaten in their homes every year. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, approximately 2,000 women are murdered every year by an intimate partner.

"Domestic violence has become an epidemic," says Brenda, who is no longer married to her husband. The enormity of the problem, combined with the fact law enforcement officials and church leaders often lack the skills to address it, led Don to author Refuge (New Hope), a book helping victims understand and flee from violence in their homes. "I consider Don to be a missionary who offers hope to hurting women and presents a wakeup call to the Christian community to get involved," says Brenda.

Dos, I'll respond first and I will take the time to read the article later. Battering or spousal abuse is inexcusable by any one at any time. It seems to be such a given or no-brainer that it should never take place that I wouldn't think someone would need counseling for that. If they are of the disposition that allows them to batter then I'm not sure how effective counseling would be. What are they going to say to defend their actions if they hadn't had counseling, "Gee, I didn't know I shouldn't batter my wife"?
It's seems to fall along the lines of counseling someone against adultery, rioting, looting, murder or the like. Everyone knows these things are wrong (don't they?), I beleive we all have an inate sense of right and wrong.

There are a lot of unstable people in society that have serious problems and it's a nice thought to think that counseling is the answer to even a small amount of the problems that they heap on those around them with reckless abandon but I'm not so sure it offers much in the way of help.
Not sure what the answer is Dos as we don't have much, if any, control over the evil desires of anyone other than ourselves.

Footnote: Not sure why the article read "countless Christian women" are battered every day as it's certainly not a problem that's peculiar to women of the Christian persuasion...more Christian bashing?

[scott]

Footnote: Not sure why the article read "countless Christian women" are battered every day as it's certainly not a problem that's peculiar to women of the Christian persuasion...more Christian bashing?

Because it's from www.christianitytoday.com? I'm guess that site probably isn't very high on "Christian bashing" either.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol
http://www.rif.org/images/hm_botrif2.gif

[jochhejaam]

Because it's from www.christianitytoday.com? I'm guess that site probably isn't very high on "Christian bashing" either.
Thanks scott, I was too lazy to edit it, I posted first then read the article more thoroughly after, I probably should have done it the other way around. :oops :lol

Got yours too CD what can I say, ya got me :lol

[Phenomanul]

so why is it .. you can find a hundreds of books at christian bookstores about how divorce is wrong .. and hardly any books about how domestic abuse is wrong.. if the church is going to stand against sin .. it better put it's efforts into standing against every form of sin.......

Going back to this post however, in light of what you just posted, the answer is simple.

For every book you find that says "divorce is wrong" there are at least five other books that explain and define the sanctimonious love a couple should have. You are just looking in the wrong section because you seem to be looking for books that denouce spousal abuse instead of books that define true love.

A husband who truly loves his wife will NEVER EVER beat her.

[Peter]

So some "Christian marriages" experience the same problems as other marriages and thus invalidates a faith which teaches that those problems are wrong?

[Phenomanul]

So some "Christian marriages" experience the same problems as other marriages and thus invalidates a faith which teaches that those problems are wrong?


No one is perfect... so the odds that a "Christian" does something against the tenets of his/her belief system are 1:1. Now, having said that, if the problem is chronic then it would imply that the person developed a 'spiritual callous' where they were being willfully disobedient to GOD's will.

In the end, people who truly serve the Lord and are in-tune to the will of the Holy Spirit are less likely to develop a chronic sin... To invalidate the tenets of an entire belief system because of the actions of 'black sheep' is a bit unfair.

[scott]

To invalidate the tenets of an entire belief system because of the actions of 'black sheep' is a bit unfair.

Hate to change gears... but isn't that also true for Islam, which some Christian "leaders" (I put in quotes because I'm not sure if these "leaders" pass muster for "true Christians") seem to decry as an evil religion?

[gtownspur]

No, its a peaceful religion with violent texts and decrees and coincidentally violent passages and followers.