Fundies Want To Make Gay Adoption 06 Wedge Issue

[Nbadan]

Drives to ban gay adoption heat up in 16 states
By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/02/21/gay.jpg


Efforts to ban gays and lesbians from adopting children are emerging across the USA as a second front in the culture wars that began during the 2004 elections over same-sex marriage.

Steps to pass laws or secure November ballot initiatives are underway in at least 16 states, adoption, gay rights and conservative groups say. Some — such as Ohio, Georgia and Kentucky — approved constitutional amendments in 2004 banning gay marriage. (Related story: Both sides cite concern for children)

"Now that we've defined what marriage is, we need to take that further and say children deserve to be in that relationship," says Greg Quinlan of Ohio's Pro-Family Network, a conservative Christian group.

Florida has banned all gays and lesbians from adopting since 1977, although they can be foster parents. State court challenges and a campaign by entertainer Rosie O'Donnell to overturn the law have failed. A pending bill would allow judges to grant exceptions.

Mississippi bans adoption by gay couples, but gay singles can adopt. Utah prohibits all unmarried couples from adoption.

Kent Markus of the National Center for Adoption Law & Policy in Ohio says he hasn't seen this much activity in 15 years as a researcher.

Richard Carlson, a professor at South Texas College of Law in Houston, says adoption laws based on judgments of morality offer "a weak argument" and will face legal challenges. He cites U.S. Supreme Court rulings striking down bans on interracial marriage and sodomy, which reflected prevailing views when enacted. The high court has not taken up a state ban on gay adoption. (Vote: What do you think about gay adoption?)

Religious groups and state courts are grappling with the issue. Roman Catholic bishops in Massachusetts are seeking an exemption from state anti-bias laws to allow the church to bar gays from adopting through its social service agencies. Meanwhile, a judge in Missouri ruled last week that the state could not deny a foster care license to a lesbian.

Fueling the political activity:

• Ballot victories. Social conservatives view family makeup as the next battleground after passing marriage amendments in 11 states in 2004. They welcomed a bill introduced this month in Ohio that would ban gays and lesbians from adopting or raising foster children. They vow to put it on the ballot if the bill fails.

Patrick Guerriero of Log Cabin Republicans, a gay political group opposed to marriage and adoption limits, calls the strategy the next step by conservatives.

• Election-year politics. Republicans battered by questions over ethics and Iraq "might well" use the adoption issue to deflect attention and draw out conservatives in close Senate and governor races in states such as Missouri and Ohio, says Sherry Bebitch Jeffe, University of Southern California political scientist.

The aim is to replicate 2004, says Julie Brueggemann of the gay rights group PROMO: Personal Rights of Missourians. She says marriage initiatives mobilized conservative voters in 2004 and helped President Bush win in closely contested states such as Ohio. Republicans "see this as a get-out-the-vote tactic."

Republican pollster Whit Ayres is skeptical. Adoption, he says, "doesn't have the emotional power of the gay marriage issue because there is no such thing as the phrase 'the sanctity of adoption.' "

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-02-20-gay-adoption_x.htm)

[Oh, Gee!!]

Yeah, let's make it harder to adopt. No child left behind.

[FromWayDowntown]

There is something inconsistent about compelling the birth of children from any pregnancy, but then limiting the opportunities for those children to be adopted by wholly prohibiting certain people from adopting.

Is the thought that if life is made tough on homosexuals, they'll just stop being homosexual?

[Trainwreck2100]

Best to do it now, while the Repubs control everything.

[Oh, Gee!!]

stupid bitches.

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/02/21/gay.jpg

[Trainwreck2100]

Is the thought that if life is made tough on homosexuals, they'll just stop being homosexual?


Not neccessarily they could lie to future husbands/wives, get knocked up. Wait for the child to reach the age of reason then come out of the closet having beenraised in a gay friendly environment. After all it worked for Sheryll Swoops.

[xrayzebra]

What a dumba-- thread. Let them have their own if they want
children :lol

[RobinsontoDuncan]

you're such a biggot

[xrayzebra]

you're such a biggot

Yeah, aren't I wonderful. Don't bother to thank me. Just keep posting.

[Oh, Gee!!]

What a dumba-- thread. Let them have their own if they want
children :lol

Some people would rather adopt. Those people should be commended

[Nbadan]

BY CARL CHANCELLOR
Knight Ridder Newspapers


AKRON, Ohio - If an Ohio lawmaker's proposal becomes state law, Republicans would be barred from being adoptive parents.

State Sen. Robert Hagan sent out e-mails to fellow lawmakers late Wednesday night, stating that he intends to "introduce legislation in the near future that would ban households with one or more Republican voters from adopting children or acting as foster parents." The e-mail ended with a request for co-sponsorship.

On Thursday, the Youngstown Democrat said he had not yet found a co-sponsor.

Hagan said his "tongue was planted firmly in cheek" when he drafted the proposed legislation. However, Hagan said that the point he is trying to make is nonetheless very serious.

Hagan said his legislation was written in response to a bill introduced in the Ohio House this month by state Rep. Ron Hood, R-Ashville, that is aimed at prohibiting gay adoption.

Arizona Central (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0223gop-adoption23-ON.html)

[Winnipeg_Spur]

This is seriously scary...

I mean, I can sort of understand the objection to gay mariage (although I still disagree), if mariage is defined to be between a man and a woman then I can see you would be redefining it to allow for gay mariages. But this... C'mon, now you're going out of your way to basically say that gays are worse than straight people. Is there really support for this kind of stupidity?!

[Nbadan]

This is seriously scary...

Is there really support for this kind of stupidity?!

I suppose that is what the Fundies want to find out. In 04 they succeeded to get out the intolerance-vote using gay marriage as their wedge issue, but so far they have been less successful in mobilizing either the right-to-lifers (the Terri Schaivo crowd) or the abortion issue (the anti-choice crowd).

[PM5K]

This is seriously scary...

I mean, I can sort of understand the objection to gay mariage (although I still disagree), if mariage is defined to be between a man and a woman then I can see you would be redefining it to allow for gay mariages. But this... C'mon, now you're going out of your way to basically say that gays are worse than straight people. Is there really support for this kind of stupidity?!

I actually see it the other way around, I can't understand any objection to gay marriage, it's between two people that aren't me and frankly it's none of my concern.

On the other hand with adoption you are involving another person, a child in this situation. I'm not saying I'm against gay adoption, but I certainly feel stronger about gay marriage...

[Crookshanks]

For those of us who believe homosexuality is a choice reinforced by environment and influence, it is disconcerting to have innocent children placed in that environment.

God intended for a marriage to be one man and one woman (for life) and for that union to produce children. Any deviation from that causes heartache and problems for all parties involved.

[Oh, Gee!!]

For those of us who believe homosexuality is a choice reinforced by environment and influence, it is disconcerting to have innocent children placed in that environment.

God intended for a marriage to be one man and one woman (for life) and for that union to produce children. Any deviation from that causes heartache and problems for all parties involved.


I think God would rather see children in loving and caring homes

[MaNuMaNiAc]

For those of us who believe homosexuality is a choice reinforced by environment and influence, it is disconcerting to have innocent children placed in that environment.

God intended for a marriage to be one man and one woman (for life) and for that union to produce children. Any deviation from that causes heartache and problems for all parties involved. oh really, and what if someone doesn't believe in god, and they are gay? I guess the only god is your god, and what he says is rule http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

I still can't believe there are morons out there actually supporting this anti-gay marriage and ADOPTION. At this point, I no longer feel they are ignorant, but rather disgusting bigots!

EDIT: http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I made a mistake, I did not mean ABORTION, I meant ADOPTION! hehe my bad

[Mr. Peabody]

God intended for a marriage to be one man and one woman (for life) and for that union to produce children. Any deviation from that causes heartache and problems for all parties involved.

You're right. Those couples that can't or won't bear children are some of society's greatest ills.

Also, I am glad that because some of you choose to believe in a supernatural being, it necessarily means we must all adhere to this supernatural being's supposed intentions.

[Mr. Peabody]

I think God would rather see children in loving and caring homes

Only Christians have to right to speculate and act on what they believe God is thinking.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Only Christians have to right to speculate and act on what they believe God is thinking.


I am a Christian, arse.

[Mr. Peabody]

I am a Christian, arse.

Obviously, you are British, as well.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

God intended for a marriage to be one man and one woman (for life) and for that union to produce children. Any deviation from that causes heartache and problems for all parties involved.

Sorry, that's not good enough. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but you can't hold other people to YOUR beliefs. Until someone shows some actual EVIDENCE that being raised by two people of the same gender is harmful to the child then there's absolutely no reason to stop it.

[Spurminator]

This was inevitable.

This, in my opinion, is the central reason so many wanted to "protect the definition of Marriage"... It's not because they really cared whether or not two gay men lived together and called each other their spouse, it was simply a necessary step towards keeping them from somehow spreading their Gay Disease to impressionable children who might choose a homosexual or liberal lifestyle.

[smeagol]

oh really, and what if someone doesn't believe in god, and they are gay?

Believing in God is not the issue. The question is how healthy is it for a child to be raised in a household comprised of a homosexual couple.

I know many atheists who don’t believe gays should be able to adopt.


I guess the only god is your god, and what he says is rule http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

Unfortunately, that’s how Christianity works. Truth cannot be A and B if A contradicts B. In those cases, truth is either A or B.


I still can't believe there are morons out there actually supporting this anti-gay marriage and abortion. At this point, I no longer feel they are ignorant, but rather disgusting bigots!

Not sure why you always have to pull the insult card. My feelings on gay marriage are mixed but I am certainly against abortion and I don’t think I’m a moron. And I’m certainly not a bigot.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not sure why you always have to pull the insult card. My feelings on gay marriage are mixed but I am certainly against abortion and I don’t think I’m a moron. And I’m certainly not a bigot.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Sorry Smeagol, I made a mistake, I did not mean to put abortion there, I meant to put adoption, Anti-gay marriage and adoption. Perhaps that clears some things up.

However, I stand by my assertion that if you believe gays should be banned from marriage and adoption then yes, you are a disgusting bigot simple as that. I see no other reason for that way of thinking.

[xrayzebra]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Sorry Smeagol, I made a mistake, I did not mean to put abortion there, I meant to put adoption, Anti-gay marriage and adoption. Perhaps that clears some things up.

However, I stand by my assertion that if you believe gays should be banned from marriage and adoption then yes, you are a disgusting bigot simple as that. I see no other reason for that way of thinking.

Would you please include me as a bigot, not disgusting, I don't smell or
anything, more than I can say about some gays. There is a sexual lifestyle,
not a relationship. Placing someone in a setting that is not natural, like two
men or two women and telling them it is, is dead wrong.

[smeagol]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Sorry Smeagol, I made a mistake, I did not mean to put abortion there, I meant to put adoption, Anti-gay marriage and adoption. Perhaps that clears some things up.

However, I stand by my assertion that if you believe gays should be banned from marriage and adoption then yes, you are a disgusting bigot simple as that. I see no other reason for that way of thinking.

How can you be so confident gay adoption is not harmful for the child being adopted?

And I also shower once a day :lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Would you please include me as a bigot, not disgusting, I don't smell or
anything, more than I can say about some gays. There is a sexual lifestyle,
not a relationship. Placing someone in a setting that is not natural, like two
men or two women and telling them it is, is dead wrong. Hell, I know how you think xray, I've known for quite a while, not going to even bother with you.

PS You don't smell, your attitude does

[Winnipeg_Spur]

The question is how healthy is it for a child to be raised in a household comprised of a homosexual couple.

Exactly. So when someone actually provides evidence against this (that isn't based on homophobia) then it can actually be discussed. Until then, who knows, maybe it's actually better for the child. It certainly would teach the child some amount of tolerance.


Would you please include me as a bigot, not disgusting, I don't smell or anything, more than I can say about some gays. There is a sexual lifestyle, not a relationship. Placing someone in a setting that is not natural, like two men or two women and telling them it is, is dead wrong.
WTF is "natural" anyway? I assume you must live in the woods and eat only what you can catch, since being natural is so important to you.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How can you be so confident gay adoption is not harmful for the child being adopted?

And I also shower once a day :lol
that's not the problem Smeagol, if you think it shouldn't be allowed, YOU tell me how it WILL be harmful. I don't see how having 2 fathers would necesarily mean the kid wouldn't be loved and taken care off.

[Crookshanks]

Exactly. So when someone actually provides evidence against this (that isn't based on homophobia) then it can actually be discussed. Until then, who knows, maybe it's actually better for the child. It certainly would teach the child some amount of tolerance.

It will be some years yet before a definitive analysis can be done. And what if the study shows it was harmful - what do we say to the innocent children - OOPS, my bad, we shouldn't have put you in that environment?

I think there is quite a bit of evidence that shows that MOST (not all) homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles (especially the males). Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?

[Spurminator]

It will be some years yet before a definitive analysis can be done. And what if the study shows it was harmful - what do we say to the innocent children - OOPS, my bad, we shouldn't have put you in that environment?

What do you say to the kid who was an orphan until he was 18 if we find that it's NOT harmful and he/she was unfairly limited in options for a home and family?

You're the one advocating a change... What exactly are you trying to protect them from? Accidental exposure to anal sex? Is this really so dangerous that we need this kind of government intervention?



I think there is quite a bit of evidence that shows that MOST (not all) homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles (especially the males). Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?

Frankly I think you're speaking out of your ass. Perhaps you could find some of this supposedly abundant evidence.

[Spurminator]

Yeah no shit.

Maybe we could also ban people under the poverty line from reproducing. Or keep children from divorced/widowed households in foster care until their single parent finds a suitable replacement mate.

I'll agree to vote for banning gay adoption as soon as you guys agree to adopt twelve kids from the area orphanage and provide a decent life for them.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It will be some years yet before a definitive analysis can be done. And what if the study shows it was harmful - what do we say to the innocent children - OOPS, my bad, we shouldn't have put you in that environment?

I think there is quite a bit of evidence that shows that MOST (not all) homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles (especially the males). Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Please post some of this evidence so you can prove you are not speaking out of your ass

[Crookshanks]

Ok - here it is! It's quite long, but also quite detailed. Pretty sickening (pun intended) if you ask me!!


The Health Risks of Gay Sex

Introduction

Back in the early 1980s, while working at Beth Israel Hospital, I vividly remember seeing healthy young gay men dying of a mysterious disease that researchers only later identified as a sexually transmitted disease — AIDS. Over the years, I've seen many patients with that diagnosis die.

As a physician, it is my duty to assess behaviors for their impact on health and wellbeing. When something is beneficial, such as exercise, good nutrition, or adequate sleep, it is my duty to recommend it. Likewise, when something is harmful, such as smoking, overeating, alcohol or drug abuse, it is my duty to discourage it.

When sexual activity is practiced outside of marriage, the consequences can be quite serious. Without question, sexual promiscuity frequently spreads diseases, from trivial to serious to deadly. In fact, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 65 million Americans have an incurable sexually transmitted disease (STD).1

There are differences between men and women in the consequences of same-sex activity. But most importantly, the consequences of homosexual activity are distinct from the consequences of heterosexual activity. As a physician, it is my duty to inform patients of the health risks of gay sex, and to discourage them from indulging in harmful behavior.


I. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL AND HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS

The current media portrayal of gay and lesbian relationships is that they are as healthy, stable and loving as heterosexual marriages — or even more so.2 Medical associations are promoting somewhat similar messages.3 Nevertheless, there are at least five major areas of differences between gay and heterosexual relationships, each with specific medical consequences. Those differences include:

A. Levels of promiscuity
B. Physical health
C. Mental health
D. Life span
E. Definition of "monogamy"

A. Promiscuity

Gay author Gabriel Rotello notes the perspective of many gays that "Gay liberation was founded . . . on a 'sexual brotherhood of promiscuity,' and any abandonment of that promiscuity would amount to a 'communal betrayal of gargantuan proportions.'"4 Rotello's perception of gay promiscuity, which he criticizes, is consistent with survey results. A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250- 499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners.5By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984.6

In more recent years, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control has reported an upswing in promiscuity, at least among young homosexual men in San Francisco. From 1994 to 1997, the percentage of homosexual men reporting multiple partners and unprotected anal sex rose from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent, with the largest increase among men under 25.7 Despite its continuing incurability, AIDS no longer seems to deter individuals from engaging in promiscuous gay sex.8

The data relating to gay promiscuity were obtained from self-identified gay men. Some advocates argue that the average would be lower if closeted homosexuals were included in the statistics.9 That is likely true, according to data obtained in a 2000 survey in Australia that tracked whether men who had sex with men were associated with the gay community. Men who were associated with the gay community were nearly four times as likely to have had more than 50 sex partners in the six months preceding the survey as men who were not associated with the gay community.10 This may imply that it is riskier to be "out" than "closeted." Adopting a gay identity may create more pressure to be promiscuous and to be so with a cohort of other more promiscuous partners.

Excessive sexual promiscuity results in serious medical consequences — indeed, it is a recipe for transmitting disease and generating an epidemic.11 The HIV/AIDS epidemic has remained a predominantly gay issue in the U.S. primarily because of the greater degree of promiscuity among gays.12 A study based upon statistics from 1986 through 1990 estimated that 20-year-old gay men had a 50 percent chance of becoming HIV positive by age 55.13 As of June 2001, nearly 64 percent of men with AIDS were men who have had sex with men.14 Syphilis is also more common among gay men. The San Francisco Public Health Department recently reported that syphilis among the city's gay and bisexual men was at epidemic levels. According to the San Francisco Chronicle:

"Experts believe syphilis is on the rise among gay and bisexual men because they are engaging in unprotected sex with multiple partners, many of whom they met in anonymous situations such as sex clubs, adult bookstores, meetings through the Internet and in bathhouses. The new data will show that in the 93 cases involving gay and bisexual men this year, the group reported having 1,225 sexual partners."15
A study done in Baltimore and reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine found that gay men contracted syphilis at three to four times the rate of heterosexuals.16 Promiscuity is the factor most responsible for the extreme rates of these and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases cited below, many of which result in a shortened life span for men who have sex with men.

Promiscuity among lesbians is less extreme, but it is still higher than among heterosexual women. Overall, women tend to have fewer sex partners than men. But there is a surprising finding about lesbian promiscuity in the literature. Australian investigators reported that lesbian women were 4.5 times more likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women (9 percent of lesbians versus 2 percent of heterosexual women); and 93 percent of women who identified themselves as lesbian reported a history of sex with men.17 Other studies similarly show that 75-90 percent of women who have sex with women have also had sex with men.18

B. Physical Health

Unhealthy sexual behaviors occur among both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Yet the medical and social science evidence indicate that homosexual behavior is uniformly unhealthy. Although both male and female homosexual practices lead to increases in Sexually Transmitted Diseases, the practices and diseases are sufficiently different that they merit separate discussion.

1. Male Homosexual Behavior

Men having sex with other men leads to greater health risks than men having sex with women19 not only because of promiscuity but also because of the nature of sex among men. A British researcher summarizes the danger as follows:

"Male homosexual behaviour is not simply either 'active' or 'passive,' since penile-anal, mouth-penile, and hand-anal sexual contact is usual for both partners, and mouth-anal contact is not infrequent. . . . Mouth-anal contact is the reason for the relatively high incidence of diseases caused by bowel pathogens in male homosexuals. Trauma may encourage the entry of micro-organisms and thus lead to primary syphilitic lesions occurring in the anogenital area. . . . In addition to sodomy, trauma may be caused by foreign bodies, including stimulators of various kinds, penile adornments, and prostheses."20
Although the specific activities addressed below may be practiced by heterosexuals at times, homosexual men engage in these activities to a far greater extent.21

a. Anal-genital

Anal intercourse is the sine qua non of sex for many gay men.22 Yet human physiology makes it clear that the body was not designed to accommodate this activity. The rectum is significantly different from the vagina with regard to suitability for penetration by a penis. The vagina has natural lubricants and is supported by a network of muscles. It is composed of a mucus membrane with a multi-layer stratified squamous epithelium that allows it to endure friction without damage and to resist the immunological actions caused by semen and sperm. In comparison, the anus is a delicate mechanism of small muscles that comprise an "exit-only" passage. With repeated trauma, friction and stretching, the sphincter loses its tone and its ability to maintain a tight seal. Consequently, anal intercourse leads to leakage of fecal material that can easily become chronic.

The potential for injury is exacerbated by the fact that the intestine has only a single layer of cells separating it from highly vascular tissue, that is, blood. Therefore, any organisms that are introduced into the rectum have a much easier time establishing a foothold for infection than they would in a vagina. The single layer tissue cannot withstand the friction associated with penile penetration, resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood, organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids.

Furthermore, ejaculate has components that are immunosuppressive. In the course of ordinary reproductive physiology, this allows the sperm to evade the immune defenses of the female. Rectal insemination of rabbits has shown that sperm impaired the immune defenses of the recipient.23 Semen may have a similar impact on humans.24

The end result is that the fragility of the anus and rectum, along with the immunosuppressive effect of ejaculate, make anal-genital intercourse a most efficient manner of transmitting HIV and other infections. The list of diseases found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners as a result of anal intercourse is alarming:

Anal Cancer
Chlamydia trachomatis
Cryptosporidium
Giardia lamblia
Herpes simplex virus
Human immunodeficiency virus
Human papilloma virus
Isospora belli
Microsporidia
Gonorrhea
Viral hepatitis types B & C
Syphilis25

Sexual transmission of some of these diseases is so rare in the exclusively heterosexual population as to be virtually unknown. Others, while found among heterosexual and homosexual practitioners, are clearly predominated by those involved in homosexual activity. Syphilis, for example is found among heterosexual and homosexual practitioners. But in 1999, King County, Washington (Seattle), reported that 85 percent of syphilis cases were among self-identified homosexual practitioners.26 And as noted above, syphilis among homosexual men is now at epidemic levels in San Francisco.27

A 1988 CDC survey identified 21 percent of all Hepatitis B cases as being homosexually transmitted while 18 percent were heterosexually transmitted.28 Since homosexuals comprise such a small percent of the population (only 1-3 percent),29 they have a significantly higher rate of infection than heterosexuals.30

Anal intercourse also puts men at significant risk for anal cancer. Anal cancer is the result of infection with some subtypes of human papilloma virus (HPV), which are known viral carcinogens. Data as of 1989 showed the rates of anal cancer in male homosexual practitioners to be 10 times that of heterosexual males, and growing. 30 Thus, the prevalence of anal cancer among gay men is of great concern. For those with AIDS, the rates are doubled.31

Other physical problems associated with anal intercourse are:

hemorrhoids
anal fissures
anorectal trauma
retained foreign bodies.32
back

b. Oral-anal

There is an extremely high rate of parasitic and other intestinal infections documented among male homosexual practitioners because of oral-anal contact. In fact, there are so many infections that a syndrome called "the Gay Bowel" is described in the medical literature.33 "Gay bowel syndrome constitutes a group of conditions that occur among persons who practice unprotected anal intercourse, anilingus, or fellatio following anal intercourse."34 Although some women have been diagnosed with some of the gastrointestinal infections associated with "gay bowel," the vast preponderance of patients with these conditions are men who have sex with men.35

"Rimming" is the street name given to oralanal contact. It is because of this practice that intestinal parasites ordinarily found in the tropics are encountered in the bodies of American gay men. Combined with anal intercourse and other homosexual practices, "rimming" provides a rich opportunity for a variety of infections.

Men who have sex with men account for the lion's share of the increasing number of cases in America of sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include Hepatitis A,36 Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica,37 Epstein-Barr virus,38 Neisseria meningitides,39 Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies and Campylobacter.40 The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) identified a 1991 outbreak of Hepatitis A in New York City, in which 78 percent of male respondents identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual.41While Hepatitis A can be transmitted by routes other than sexual, a preponderance of Hepatitis A is found in gay men in multiple states.42 Salmonella is rarely associated with sexual activity except among gay men who have oral-anal and oral-genital contact following anal intercourse.43 The most unsettling new discovery is the reported sexual transmission of typhoid. This water-borne disease, well known in the tropics, only infects 400 people each year in the United States, usually as a result of ingestion of contaminated food or water while abroad. But sexual transmission was diagnosed in Ohio in a series of male sex partners of one male who had traveled to Puerto Rico.44

In America, Human Herpes Virus 8 (called Herpes Type 8 or HHV-8) is a disease found exclusively among male homosexual practitioners. Researchers have long noted that men who contracted AIDS through homosexual behavior frequently developed a previously rare form of cancer called Kaposi's sarcoma. Men who contract HIV/AIDS through heterosexual sex or intravenous drug use rarely display this cancer. Recent studies confirm that Kaposi's sarcoma results from infection with HHV-8. The New England Journal of Medicine described one cohort in San Francisco where 38 percent of the men who admitted any homosexual contact within the previous five years tested positive for this virus while none of the exclusively heterosexual men tested positive. The study predicted that half of the men with both HIV and HHV-8 would develop the cancer within 10 years.45 The medical literature is currently unclear as to the precise types of sexual behavior that transmit HHV-8, but there is a suspicion that it may be transmitted via saliva.46

c. Human Waste

Some gay men sexualize human waste, including the medically dangerous practice of coprophilia, which means sexual contact with highly infectious fecal wastes.47 This practice exposes the participants to all of the risks of anal-oral contact and many of the risks of analgenital contact.

d. Fisting

"Fisting" refers to the insertion of a hand or forearm into the rectum, and is far more damaging than anal intercourse. Tears can occur, along with incompetence of the anal sphincter. The result can include infections, inflammation and, consequently, enhanced susceptibility to future STDs. Twenty-two percent of homosexuals in one survey admitted to having participated in this practice.48

e. Sadism

The sexualization of pain and cruelty is described as sadism, named for the 18th Century novelist, the Marquis de Sade. His novel Justine describes repeated rapes and non-consensual whippings.49 Not all persons who practice sadism engage in the same activities. But a recent advertisement for a sadistic "conference" included a warning that participants might see "intentional infliction of pain [and] cutting of the skin with bleeding . . . ." Scheduled workshops included "Vaginal Fisting" (with a demonstration), "Sacred Sexuality and Cutting" with "a demonstration of a cutting with a live subject," "Rough Rope," and a "Body Harness" workshop that was to involve "demonstrating and coaching the tying of erotic body harnesses that involve the genitals, male and female."50 A similar event entitled the "Vicious Valentine" occurred near Chicago on Feb. 15-17, 2002.51 The medical consequences of such activities range from mild to fatal, depending upon the nature of the injuries inflicted.52 As many as 37 percent of homosexuals have practiced some form of sadism.53

f. Conclusion

The consequences of homosexual activity have significantly altered the delivery of medical care to the population at-large. With the increased incidence of STD organisms in unexpected places, simple sore throat is no longer so simple. Doctors must now ask probing questions of their patients or risk making a misdiagnosis. The evaluation of a sore throat must now include questions about oral and anal sex. A case of hemorrhoids is no longer just a surgical problem. We must now inquire as to sexual practice and consider that anal cancer, rectal gonorrhea, or rectal chlamydia may be secreted in what deceptively appears to be "just hemorrhoids."54 Moreover, data shows that rectal and throat gonorrhea, for example, are without symptoms in 75 percent of cases.55

The impact of the health consequences of gay sex is not confined to homosexual practitioners. Even though nearly 11 million people in America are directly affected by cancer, compared to slightly more than three-quarters of a million with AIDS,56 AIDS spending per patient is more than seven times that for cancer.57 The inequity for diabetes and heart disease is even more striking.58 Consequently, the disproportionate amount of money spent on AIDS detracts from research into cures for diseases that affect more people.

2. Female Homosexual Behavior

Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs and other health problems than heterosexuals.59 However, the health consequences of lesbianism are less well documented than for male homosexuals. This is partly because the devastation of AIDS has caused male homosexual activity to draw the lion's share of medical attention. But it is also because there are fewer lesbians than gay men,60 and there is no evidence that lesbians practice the same extremes of same-sex promiscuity as gay men. The lesser amount of medical data does not mean, however, that female homosexual behavior is without recognized pathology. Much of the pathology is associated with heterosexual activity by lesbians.

Among the difficulties in establishing the pathologies associated with lesbianism is the problem of defining who is a lesbian.61 Study after study documents that the overwhelming majority of self-described lesbians have had sex with men.62 Australian researchers at an STD clinic found that only 7 percent of their lesbian sample had never had sexual contact with a male.63

Not only did lesbians commonly have sex with men, but with lots of men. They were 4.5 times as likely as exclusively heterosexual controls to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners.64 Consequently, the lesbians' median number of male partners was twice that of exclusively heterosexual women.65 Lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV disease-homosexual, bisexual, or IV drug-abusing men.66 The study "demonstrates that WSW [women who have sex with women] are more likely than non- WSW to engage in recognized HIV risk behaviours such as IDU [intravenous drug use], sex work, sex with a bisexual man, and sex with a man who injects drugs, confirming previous reports."67

Bacterial vaginosis, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, heavy cigarette smoking, alcohol abuse, intravenous drug use, and prostitution were present in much higher proportions among female homosexual practitioners.68 Intravenous drug abuse was nearly six times as common in this group.69In one study of women who had sex only with women in the prior 12 months, 30 percent had bacterial vaginosis.70 Bacterial vaginosis is associated with higher risk for pelvic inflammatory disease and other sexually transmitted infections.71

In view of the record of lesbians having sex with many men, including gay men, and the increased incidence of intravenous drug use among lesbians, lesbians are not low risk for disease. Although researchers have only recently begun studying the transmission of STDs among lesbians, diseases such as "crabs," genital warts, chlamydia and herpes have been reported.72 Even women who have never had sex with men have been found to have HPV, trichomoniasis and anogenital warts.73

C. Mental Health

1. Psychiatric Illness

Multiple studies have identified high rates of psychiatric illness, including depression, drug abuse and suicide attempts, among selfprofessed gays and lesbians.74 Some proponents of GLB rights have used these findings to conclude that mental illness is induced by other people's unwillingness to accept same-sex attraction and behavior as normal. They point to homophobia, effectively defined as any opposition to or critique of gay sex, as the cause for the higher rates of psychiatric illness, especially among gay youth.75 Although homophobia must be considered as a potential cause for the increase in mental health problems, the medical literature suggests other conclusions.

An extensive study in the Netherlands undermines the assumption that homophobia is the cause of increased psychiatric illness among gays and lesbians. The Dutch have been considerably more accepting of same-sex relationships than other Western countries — in fact, same-sex couples now have the legal right to marry in the Netherlands.76 So a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with homosexual behavior in the Netherlands means that the psychiatric disease cannot so easily be attributed to social rejection and homophobia.

The Dutch study, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, did indeed find a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with same-sex sex.77 Compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interview, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence. In fact, those with a history of homosexual contact had higher rates of nearly all psychiatric pathologies measured in the study.78 The researchers found "that homosexuality is not only associated with mental health problems during adolescence and early adulthood, as has been suggested, but also in later life."79 Researchers actually fear that methodological features of "the study might underestimate the differences between homosexual and heterosexual people."80

The Dutch researchers concluded, "this study offers evidence that homosexuality is associated with a higher prevalence of psychiatric disorders. The outcomes are in line with findings from earlier studies in which less rigorous designs have been employed."81 The researchers offered no opinion as to whether homosexual behavior causes psychiatric disorders, or whether it is the result of psychiatric disorders.

2. Reckless Sexual Behavior

Depression and drug abuse can lead to reckless sexual behavior, even among those who are most likely to understand the deadly risks. In an article that was part of a series on "AIDS at 20," the New York Times reported the risks that many gay men take. One night when a gay HIV prevention educator named Seth Watkins got depressed, he met an attractive stranger, had anal intercourse without a condom — and became HIV positive. In spite of his job training, the HIV educator nevertheless employed the psychological defense of "denial" in explaining his own sexual behavior:

"[L]ike an increasing number of gay men in San Francisco and elsewhere, Mr. Watkins sometimes still puts himself and possibly other people at risk. 'I don't like to think about it because I don't want to give anyone H.I.V.,' Mr. Watkins said."82
Another gay man named Vince, who had never before had anal intercourse without a condom, went to a sex club on the spur of the moment when he got depressed, and had unprotected sex:
"I was definitely in a period of depression . . . . And there was just something about that particular circumstance and that particular person. I don't know how to describe it. It just appealed to me; it made it seem like it was all right."83
Some of the men interviewed by the New York Times are deliberately reckless. One fatalistic gay man with HIV makes no apology for putting other men at risk:
"The prospect of going through the rest of your life having to cover yourself up every time you want to get intimate with someone is an awful one. . . . Now I've got H.I.V. and I don't have to worry about getting it," he said. "There is a part of me that's relieved. I was tired of always having to be careful, of this constant diligence that has to be paid to intimacy when intimacy should be spontaneous."84
After admitting to almost never using condoms he adds:
"There is no such thing as safe sex. . . . If people want to use condoms, they can. I didn't go out and purposely get H.I.V. Accidents happen."85
Other reports show similar disregard for the safety of self and others. A1998 study in Seattle found that 10 percent of HIV-positive men admitted they engaged in unprotected anal sex, and the percentage doubled in 2000.86 According to a study of men who attend gay "circuit" parties,87 the danger at such events is even greater. Ten percent of the men surveyed expected to become HIV-positive in their lifetime. Researchers discovered that 17 percent of the circuit party attendees surveyed were already HIV positive.88 Two thirds of those attending circuit parties had oral or anal sex, and 28 percent did not use condoms.89

In addition, drug use at circuit parties is ubiquitous. Although only 57 percent admit going to circuit parties to use drugs, 95 percent of the survey participants said they used psychoactive drugs at the most recent event they attended.90 There was a direct correlation between the number of drugs used during a circuit party weekend and the likelihood of unprotected anal sex.91 The researchers concluded that in view of their findings, "the likelihood of transmission of HIV and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases among party attendees and secondary partners becomes a real public health concern."92

Good mental health would dictate foregoing circuit parties and other risky sex. But neither education nor adequate access to health care is a deterrent to such reckless behavior. "Research at the University of New South Wales found well-educated professional men in early middle age — those who experienced the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s — are most likely not to use a condom."93

D. Shortened Life Span

The greater incidence of physical and mental health problems among gays and lesbians has serious consequences for length of life. While many are aware of the death toll from AIDS, there has been little public attention given to the magnitude of the lost years of life.

An epidemiological study from Vancouver, Canada of data tabulated between 1987 and 1992 for AIDS-related deaths reveals that male homosexual or bisexual practitioners lost up to 20 years of life expectancy. The study concluded that if 3 percent of the population studied were gay or bisexual, the probability of a 20-year-old gay or bisexual man living to 65 years was only 32 percent, compared to 78 percent for men in general.94 The damaging effects of cigarette smoking pale in comparison -cigarette smokers lose on average about 13.5 years of life expectancy.95

The impact on length of life may be even greater than reported in the Canadian study. First, HIV/AIDS is underreported by as much as 15-20 percent, so it is likely that not all AIDSrelated deaths were accounted for in the study.96 Second, there are additional major causes of death related to gay sex. For example, suicide rates among a San Francisco cohort were 3.4 times higher than the general U.S. male population in 1987.97 Other potentially fatal ailments such as syphilis, anal cancer, and Hepatitis B and C also affect gay and bisexual men disproportionately.98

E. "Monogamy"

Monogamy for heterosexual couples means at a minimum sexual fidelity. The most extensive survey of sex in America found that "a vast majority [of heterosexual married couples] are faithful while the marriage is intact."99 The survey further found that 94 percent of married people and 75 percent of cohabiting people had only one partner in the prior year.100 In contrast, long-term sexual fidelity is rare among GLB couples, particularly among gay males. Even during the coupling period, many gay men do not expect monogamy. A lesbian critic of gay males notes that:

"After a period of optimism about the longrange potential of gay men's one-on-one relationships, gay magazines are starting to acknowledge the more relaxed standards operating here, with recent articles celebrating the bigger bang of sex with strangers or proposing 'monogamy without fidelity'-the latest Orwellian formulation to excuse having your cake and eating it too."101
Gay men's sexual practices appear to be consistent with the concept of "monogamy without fidelity." Astudy of gay men attending circuit parties showed that 46 percent were coupled, that is, they claimed to have a "primary partner." Twenty-seven percent of the men with primary partners "had multiple sex partners (oral or anal) during their most recent circuit party weekend . . . ."102 For gay men, sex outside the primary relationship is ubiquitous even during the first year. Gay men reportedly have sex with someone other than their partner in 66 percent of relationships within the first year, rising to approximately 90 percent if the relationship endures over five years.103 And the average gay or lesbian relationship is short lived. In one study, only 15 percent of gay men and 17.3 percent of lesbians had relationships that lasted more than three years.104 Thus, the studies reflect very little long-term monogamy in GLB relationships.

II. CULTURAL IMPLICATIONS OF PROMISCUITY

"Don't tear down a fence until you know why it was put up." ~ African proverb

The societal implications of the unrestrained sexual activity described above are devastating. The ideal of sexual activity being limited to marriage, always defined as male-female, has been a fence erected in all civilizations around the globe.105 Throughout history, many people have climbed over the fence, engaging in premarital, extramarital and homosexual sex. Still, the fence stands; the limits are visible to all. Climbing over the fence, metaphorically, has always been recognized as a breach of those limits, even by the breachers themselves. No civilization can retain its vitality for multiple generations after removing the fence.106

But now social activists are saying that there should be no fence, and that to destroy the fence is an act of liberation.107 If the fence is torn down, there is no visible boundary to sexual expression. If gay sex is socially acceptable, what logical reason can there be to deny social acceptance of adultery, polygamy, or pedophilia? The polygamist movement already has support from some of the advocates for GLB rights.108 And some in the psychological profession are floating the idea that maybe pedophilia is not so damaging to children after all.109

Lesbian social critic Camille Paglia observes, "history shows that male homosexuality, which like prostitution flourishes with urbanization and soon becomes predictably ritualized, always tends toward decadence."110 Gay author Gabriel Rotello writes of the changes in homosexual behavior in the last century:

"Most accounts of male-on-male sex from the early decades of this century [20th] cite oral sex, and less often masturbation, as the predominant forms of activity, with the acknowledged homosexual fellating or masturbating his partner. Comparatively fewer accounts refer to anal sex. My own informal survey of older gay men who were sexually active prior to World War II gives credence to the idea that anal sex, especially anal sex with multiple partners, was considerably less common than it later became."111
Not only has the practice of anal sex increased, condom use has declined 20 percent and multi-partner sex has doubled in the last seven years,112 despite billions of dollars spent on HIV prevention campaigns. "In many cases, the prevention slogans that galvanized gay men in the early years of the epidemic now fall on deaf ears."113 As should be expected, the health-care costs resulting from gay promiscuity are substantial.114
Social approval of gay sex leads to an increase in such behavior. As early as 1993, Newsweek reported that the growing media presence and social acceptance of homosexual behavior was leading to teenager experimentation to the extent that it was "becoming chic."115 A more recent report stated that "the way gays and lesbians appear in the media may make some people more comfortable acting on homosexual impulses."116 In addition, one of the goals of GLB advocates' quest for domestic partner benefits from employers is to motivate more gays and lesbians "to come out of the closet."117 If, as suggested above, being "out" results in a greater incidence of promiscuity, employer decisions to provide domestic partner benefits may have a negative impact on employee health. Indeed, giving gays and lesbians the social approval they desire may ultimately lead to an early death for employees who otherwise might have restrained their sexual behavior.

Research designed to prove that gays and lesbians are "born that way" has come up empty — there is no scientific evidence that being gay or lesbian is genetically determined.118 Even researcher Dean Hamer, who once hoped he had identified a "gay gene," admits "there is a lot more than just genes going on."119

CONCLUSION

It is clear that there are serious medical consequences to same-sex behavior. Identification with a GLB community appears to lead to an increase in promiscuity, which in turn leads to a myriad of Sexually Transmitted Diseases and even early death. A compassionate response to requests for social approval and recognition of GLB relationships is not to assure gays and lesbians that homosexual relationships are just like heterosexual ones, but to point out the health risks of gay sex and promiscuity. Approving same-sex relationships is detrimental to employers, employees and society in general.

APPENDIX A

Definitional Impediments to Research

Unfortunately, endeavors to assess the actual practices and the health consequences of male and female homosexual behavior are hampered by imprecise definitions. For many, being gay or lesbian or bisexual is a political identity that does not necessarily correspond to sexual behavior. And investigators find that sexual behavior fluctuates over time:

"[P]eople often change their sexual behavior during their lifetimes, making it impossible to state that a particular set of behaviors defines a person as gay. A man who has sex with men today, for example, might not have done so 10 years ago."120
Defining the terms becomes even more difficult when people who identify as gay or lesbian enter heterosexual relationships. Joanne Loulan, a well-known lesbian, has talked openly about her two-year relationship with a man: "'I come from this background that sex is an activity, it's not an identity,' says Loulan. 'It was funny for a while, but then it turned out to be something more connected, more deep. Something more important. And that's when my life started really going topsy turvy.'" While critics complain that "You can't be a lesbian and be having sex with men," Loulan sees no contradiction in the fact that she "adamantly refuses to call herself a bisexual, to give up the lesbian identity."121
Several high-profile lesbian media stars that have abandoned lesbianism further illustrate the difficulty in defining homosexuality. An article about the now defunct couple, Anne Heche and Ellen Degeneres, said, "Although the pair never publicly discussed the reason for their breakup, it has been heavily rumored that Heche decided to go back to heterosexuality."122 Heche married a man on Sept. 1, 2001.123

As recently as June 2000, pop-music star Sinead O'Connor said, "I'm a lesbian . . . although I haven't been very open about that, and throughout most of my life I've gone out with blokes because I haven't necessarily been terribly comfortable about being a lesbian. But I actually am a lesbian."124 Then, shocking the gay world that applauded her "coming out," O'Connor's sexual identity fluctuated again when she withdrew from participating in a lesbian music festival because of her marriage to British Press Association reporter Nick Sommerlad.125

Although women get most of the press coverage of fluctuating between same-sex and heterosexual relationships, men can experience similar fluidity. Gay author John Stoltenberg has lived with a lesbian, Andrea Dworkin, since 1974.126 And a 2000 survey in Australia found that 19 percent of gay men reported having sex with a woman in the six months prior to the survey.127 This fluctuation in sexual "orientation" inhibits the creation of a fixed definition of homosexuality. As one group of researchers stated the problem:

"Does a man who has homosexual sex in prison count as a homosexual? Does a man who left his wife of twenty years for a gay lover count as a homosexual or heterosexual? Do you count the number of years he spent with his wife as compared to his lover? Does the married woman who had sex with her college roommate a decade ago count? Do you assume that one homosexual experience defines someone as gay for all time?"128
Despite the difficulty in defining homosexuality, the one thing that is clear is that those who engage in same-sex practices or identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual constitute a very small percentage of the population. The most reliable studies indicate that 1-3 percent of people — and probably less than 2 percent — consider themselves to be gay, lesbian or bisexual, or currently practice same-sex sex.129

Endnotes

"Tracking the Hidden Epidemics: Trends in STDs in the United States, 2000," Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), available at www.cdc.gov.
Becky Birtha, "Gay Parents and the Adoption Option," The Philadelphia Inquirer, March 04, 2002, www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/ 2787531.htm; Grant Pick, "Make Room for Daddy — and Poppa," The Chicago Tribune Internet Edition, March 24, 2002, www.chicagotribune.com/features/magazine/chi- 0203240463mar24.story
Ellen C. Perrin, et al., "Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents," Pediatrics, 109(2): 341-344 (2002).
Gabriel Rotello, Sexual Ecology: AIDS and the Destiny of Gay Men, p. 112, New York: Penguin Group, 1998 (quoting gay writer Michael Lynch).
Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A study of Diversity Among Men and Women, p. 308, Table 7, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978.
Leon McKusick, et al., "Reported Changes in the Sexual Behavior of Men at Risk for AIDS, San Francisco, 1982-84 — the AIDS Behavioral Research Project," Public Health Reports, 100(6): 622-629, p. 625, Table 1 (November- December 1985). In 1982 respondents reported an average of 4.7 new partners in the prior month; in 1984, respondents reported an average of 2.5 new partners in the prior month.
"Increases in Unsafe Sex and Rectal Gonorrhea among Men Who Have Sex with Men — San Francisco, California, 1994-1997," Mortality and Morbidity Weekly Report, CDC, 48(03): 45-48, p. 45 (January 29, 1999).
This was evident by the late 80's and early 90's. Jeffrey A. Kelly, PhD, et al., "Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome/ Human Immunodeficiency Virus Risk Behavior Among Gay Men in Small Cities," Archives of Internal Medicine, 152: 2293-2297, pp. 2295-2296 (November 1992); Donald R. Hoover, et al., "Estimating the 1978-1990 and Future Spread of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 in Subgroups of Homosexual Men," American Journal of Epidemiology, 134(10): 1190-1205, p. 1203 (1991).
A lesbian pastor made this assertion during a question and answer session that followed a presentation the author made on homosexual health risks at the Chatauqua Institute in Western New York, summer 2001.
Paul Van de Ven, et al., "Facts & Figures: 2000 Male Out Survey," p. 20 & Table 20, monograph published by National Centre in HIV Social Research Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences, The University of New South Wales, February 2001.
Rotello, pp. 43-46.
Ibid., pp. 165-172.
Hoover, et al., Figure 3.
"Basic Statistics," CDC — Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention, June 2001, www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm. (Nearly 8% (50,066) of men with AIDS had sex with men and used intravenous drugs. These men are included in the 64% figure (411,933) of 649,186 men who have been diagnosed with AIDS.)
Figures from a study presented at the Infectious Diseases Society of America meeting in San Francisco and reported by Christopher Heredia, "Big spike in cases of syphilis in S.F.: Gay, bisexual men affected most," San Francisco Chronicle, October 26, 2001, www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/10/26/MN7489 3.DTL.
Catherine Hutchinson, et al., "Characteristics of Patients with Syphilis Attending Baltimore STD Clinics," Archives of Internal Medicine, 151: 511-516, p. 513 (1991).
Katherine Fethers, Caron Marks, et al., "Sexually transmitted infections and risk behaviours in women who have sex with women," Sexually Transmitted Infections, 76(5): 345- 349, p. 347 (October 2000).
James Price, et al., "Perceptions of cervical cancer and pap smear screening behavior by Women's Sexual Orientation," Journal of Community Health, 21(2): 89-105 (1996); Daron Ferris, et al., "A Neglected Lesbian Health Concern: Cervical Neoplasia," The Journal of Family Practice, 43(6): 581-584, p. 581 (December 1996); C. Skinner, J. Stokes, et al., "A Case-Controlled Study of the Sexual Health Needs of Lesbians," Sexually Transmitted Infections, 72(4): 277-280, Abstract (1996).
The Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA) recently published a press release entitled "Ten Things Gay Men Should Discuss with Their Health Care Providers" (July 17, 2002), www.glma.org/news/ releases/n02071710gaythings.html. The list includes: HIV/AIDS (Safe Sex), Substance Use, Depression/ Anxiety, Hepatitis Immunization, STDs, Prostate/ Testicular/Colon Cancer, Alcohol, Tobacco, Fitness and Anal Papilloma.
R. R. Wilcox, "Sexual Behaviour and Sexually Transmitted Disease Patterns in Male Homosexuals," British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 57(3): 167-169, 167 (1981).
Robert T. Michael, et al., Sex in America: a Definitive Survey, pp. 140-141, Table 11, Boston: Little, Brown, and Co., 1994; Rotello, pp. 75-76.
Rotello, p. 92.
Jon M. Richards, J. Michael Bedford, and Steven S. Witkin, "Rectal Insemination Modifies Immune Responses in Rabbits," Science, 27(224): 390-392 (1984).
S. S. Witkin and J. Sonnabend, "Immune Responses to Spermatozoa in Homosexual Men," Fertility and Sterility, 39(3): 337-342, pp. 340-341 (1983).
Anne Rompalo, "Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men," Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990); "Anal Health for Men and Women," LGBTHealthChannel, www.gayhealthchannel.com/analhealth/; "Safer Sex (MSM) for Men who Have Sex with Men," LGBTHealthChannel, www.gayhealthchannel.com/stdmsm/.
"Resurgent Bacterial Sexually Transmitted Disease Among Men Who Have Sex With Men — King County, Washington, 1997-1999," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, CDC, 48(35): 773-777 (September 10, 1999).
Heredia, "Big spike in cases of syphilis in S.F.: Gay, bisexual men affected most."
"Changing Patterns of Groups at High Risk for Hepatitis B in the United States," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, CDC, 37(28): 429-432, p. 437 (July 22, 1988). Hepatitis B and C are viral diseases of the liver.
Edward O. Laumann, John H. Gagnon, et al., The social organization of sexuality: Sexual practices in the United States, p. 293, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994; Michael, et al., p. 176; David Forman and Clair Chilvers, "Sexual Behavior of Young and Middle-Aged Men in England and Wales," British Medical Journal, 298: 1137-1142 (1989); and Gary Remafedi, et al., "Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents," Pediatrics, 89: 714-721 (1992). See appendix A.
Mads Melbye, Charles Rabkin, et al., "Changing patterns of anal cancer incidence in the United States, 1940-1989," American Journal of Epidemiology, 139: 772-780, p. 779, Table 2 (1994).
James Goedert, et al., for the AIDS-Cancer Match Study Group, "Spectrum of AIDS-associated malignant disorders," The Lancet, 351: 1833-1839, p. 1836 (June 20, 1998).
"Anal Health for Men and Women," LGBTHealthChannel, www.gayhealthchannel.com/analhealth/; J. E. Barone, et al., "Management of Foreign Bodies and Trauma of the Rectum," Surgery, Gynecology and Obstetrics, 156(4): 453-457 (April 1983).
Henry Kazal, et al., "The gay bowel syndrome: Clinicopathologic correlation in 260 cases," Annals of Clinical and Laboratory Science, 6(2): 184-192 (1976).
Glen E. Hastings and Richard Weber, "Use of the term 'Gay Bowel Syndrome,'" reply to a letter to the editor, American Family Physician, 49(3): 582 (1994).
Ibid.; E. K. Markell, et al., "Intestinal Parasitic Infections in Homosexual Men at a San Francisco Health Fair," Western Journal of Medicine, 139(2): 177-178 (August, 1983).
"Hepatitis A among Homosexual Men — United States, Canada, and Australia," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, CDC, 41(09): 155, 161-164 (March 06, 1992).
Rompalo, p. 1640.
H. Naher, B. Lenhard, et al., "Detection of Epstein-Barr virus DNA in anal scrapings from HIV-positive homosexual men," Archives of Dermatological Research, 287(6): 608- 611, Abstract (1995).
B. L. Carlson, N. J. Fiumara, et al., "Isolation of Neisseria meningitidis from anogenital specimens from homosexual men," Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 7(2): 71-73 (April 1980).
P. Paulet and G. Stoffels, "Maladies anorectales sexuellement transmissibles" ["Sexually-Transmissible Anorectal Diseases"], Revue Medicale Bruxelles, 10(8): 327-334, Abstract (October 10, 1989).
"Hepatitis A among Homosexual Men — United States, Canada, and Australia," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, CDC, 41(09): 155, 161-164 (March 06, 1992).
Ibid.
C. M. Thorpe and G. T. Keutsch, "Enteric bacterial pathogens: Shigella, Salmonella, Campylobacter," in K. K. Holmes, P. A. Mardh, et al., (Eds.), Sexually Transmitted Diseases (3rd edition), p. 549, New York: McGraw-Hill Health Professionals Division, 1999.
Tim Bonfield, "Typhoid traced to sex encounters," Cincinnati Enquirer, April 26, 2001; Erin McClam, "Health Officials Document First Sexual Transmission of Typhoid in U.S.," Associated Press, April 25, 2001, www.thebody.com/ cdc/news_updates_archive/apr26_01/typhoid.html. A representative of the Foodborne and Diarrheal Diseases Branch, Division of Bacterial and Mycotic Diseases at the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia, confirmed this report and provided a link to the AP story on October 4, 2002.
Jeffrey Martin, et al., "Sexual Transmission and the Natural History of Human Herpes Virus 8 Infection," New England Journal of Medicine, 338(14): 948-954, p. 952 (1998).
Alexandra M. Levine, "Kaposi's Sarcoma: Far From Gone," paper presented at 5th International AIDS Malignancy Conference, April 23-25, 2001, Bethesda, Maryland, www.medscape.com/viewarticle/420749.
"Paraphilias," Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision, p. 576, Washington: American Psychiatric Association, 2000; Karla Jay and Allen Young, The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak Out About Sexual Experiences and Lifestyles, pp. 554-555, New York: Summit Books (1979).
Jay and Young, pp. 554-555.
Sade, Marquis de, Justine or Good Conduct Well Chastised (1791), New York: Grove Press (1965).
Michigan Rope internet advertisement for "Bondage and Beyond," which was scheduled for February 9-10, 2002, near Detroit, Michigan, www.michiganrope.com/ MichiganRopeWorkshop.html. The explicit nature of the advertisement was changed following unexpected publicity, and the hotel where the conference was scheduled ultimately canceled it. Marsha Low, "Hotel Ties Noose Around 2-Day Bondage Meeting," Detroit Free Press, January 25, 2002, www.freep.com/news/locoak/ nrope25_20020125.htm.
Allyson Smith, "Ramada to host 'Vicious Valentine' Event," WorldNet Daily, February 14, 2002, www.worldnetdaily. com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26453; "Vicious Valentine 5 Celebrates Mardi Gras, Feb 15-17, 2002," www.leatherquest.com/events/vv2002.htm.
The sadistic rape of 13-year-old Jesse Dirkhising on September 26, 1999, left him dead. See Andrew Sullivan, "The Death of Jesse Dirkhising," The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, April 1, 2001.
Jay and Young, pp. 554-555.
Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, "MSM: Clinician's Guide to Incorporating Sexual Risk Assessment in Routine Visits," www.glma.org/medical/clinical/msm_assessment. html.
S. Bygdeman, "Gonorrhea in men with homosexual contacts. Serogroups of isolated gonococcal strains related to antibiotic susceptibility, site of infection, and symptoms," British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 57(5): 320-324, Abstract (October 1981).
As of January 1, 1999, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) estimated the cancer prevalence in the United States to be 8.9 million. "Estimated US Cancer Prevalence Counts: Who Are Our Cancer Survivors in the US?," Cancer Control & Population Sciences, National Cancer Institute, April 2002, www.cancercontrol.cancer.gov/ocs/prevalence. In 1999, the American Cancer Society (ACS) estimated 1,221,800 new cancer cases in the US and an estimated 563,100 cancer related deaths, "Cancer Facts and Figures 1999," p. 4, American Cancer Society, Inc., 1999, www.cancer.org/ downloads/STT/F&F99.pdf; in 2000, the ACS estimated 1,220,100 new cancer cases and 552,200 deaths from cancer, "Cancer Facts and Figures 2000," p. 4, American Cancer Society, Inc., 2000, www.cancer.org/downloads/STT/ F&F00.pdf; in 2001, the ACS estimated a total number of 1,268,000 new cases of cancer and 553,400 deaths, "Cancer Facts and Figures 2001," p. 5, American Cancer Society, Inc., 2001, www.cancer.org/downloads/STT/ F&F2001.pdf. This results in an estimated growth of 2,041,200 new cancer cases over the past three years and an estimated 10,941,200 people with cancer as of January 1, 2002. In 2001 there were 793,025 reported AIDS cases. "Basic Statistics," CDC — Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention, June 2001, www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats.htm.
The federal spending for AIDS research in 2001 was $2,247,000,000, while the spending for cancer research was not even double that at $4,376,400,000. "Funding For Research Areas of Interest," National Institute of Health, 2002, www4.od.nih.gov/officeofbudget/ FundingResearchAreas.htm.
Ibid.; "Fast Stats Ato Z: Diabetes," CDC — National Center for Health Statistics, June 04, 2002, www.cdc.gov/nchs/ fastats/diabetes.htm; "Fast Stats A to Z: Heart Disease," CDC — National Center for Health Statistics, June 06, 2002, www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/heart.htm.
Gay and Lesbian Medical Association Press Release, "Ten Things Lesbians Should Discuss with Their Health Care Providers" (July 17, 2002), www.glma.org/news/ releases/n02071710lesbianthings.html. The list includes Breast Cancer, Depression/Anxiety, Gynecological Cancer, Fitness, Substance Use, Tobacco, Alcohol, Domestic Violence, Osteoporosis and Heart Health.
Michael, et al., p. 176 ("about 1.4 percent of women said they thought of themselves as homosexual or bisexual and about 2.8% of the men identified themselves in this way").
See Appendix A.
Skinner, et al., Abstract; Ferris, et al. p. 581; James Price, et al., p. 90; see Appendix A.
Katherine Fethers, et al., "Sexually transmitted infections and risk behaviours in women who have sex with women," Sexually Transmitted Infections, 76(5): 345-349, p. 348 (2000).
Ibid., p. 347.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid., p. 348.
Ibid., p. 347, Table 1; Susan D. Cochran, et al., "Cancer- Related Risk Indicators and Preventive Screening Behaviors Among Lesbians and Bisexual Women," American Journal of Public Health, 91(4): 591-597 (April 2001); Juliet Richters, Sara Lubowitz, et al., "HIV risks among women in contact with Sydney's gay and lesbian community," Venereology, 11(3): 35-38 (1998); Juliet Richters, Sarah Bergin, et al., "Women in Contact with the Gay and Lesbian Community: Sydney Women and Sexual Health Survey 1996 and 1998," National Centre in HIV Social Research, University of New South Wales, 1999.
Fethers, et al., p. 347 and Table 1.
Barbara Berger, Shelley Kolton, et al., "Bacterial vaginosis in lesbians: a sexually transmitted disease," Clinical Infectious Diseases, 21: 1402-1405 (1995).
E. H. Koumans, et al., "Preventing adverse sequelae of Bacterial Vaginosis: a Public Health Program and Research Agenda," Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 28(5): 292-297 (May 2001); R. L. Sweet, "Gynecologic Conditions and Bacterial Vaginosis: Implications for the Non-Pregnant Patient," Infectious Diseases in Obstetrics and Gynecology, 8(3): 184-190 (2000).
Kathleen M. Morrow, Ph.D., et al., "Sexual Risk in Lesbians and Bisexual Women," Journal of the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, 4(4): 159-165, p. 161 (2000).
Ibid., p. 159.
For example, Judith Bradford, Caitlin Ryan, and Esther D. Rothblum, "National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care," Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 62(2): 228-242 (1994); Richard C. Pillard, "Sexual orientation and mental disorder," Psychiatric Annals, 18(1): 52-56 (1988); see also Mubarak S. Dahir, "The Gay Community's New Epidemic," Daily News (June 5, 2000), www.gaywired.com/story detail.cfm?Section=12&ID=148&ShowDate=1.
Katherine A. O'Hanlan, M.D., et al., "Homophobia As a Health Hazard," Report of the Gay & Lesbian Medical Association, pp. 3, 5, www.ohanlan.com/phobiahzd.htm; Laura Dean, et al., "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Health: Findings & Concerns," Journal of the Gay & Lesbian Medical Association, 4(3): 102-151, pp. 102, 116 (2000).
"Netherlands Ends Discrimination in Civil Marriage: Gays to Wed," Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund Press Release, March 30, 2001, http://lambdalegal.org/cgibin/ pages/documents/record?record=814.
Theo Sandfort, Ron de Graaf, et al., "Same-sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders," Archives of General Psychiatry, 58(1): 85-91, p. 89 and Table 2 (January 2001).
Ibid.
Ibid., p. 89.
Ibid., p. 90 (emphasis added).
Ibid.
Erica Goode, "With Fears Fading, More Gays Spurn Old Preventive Message," New York Times, August 19, 2001.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
"Officials Voice Alarm Over Halt in AIDS Decline," New York Times, August 14, 2001.
"A uniform definition of a circuit party does not exist, partly because such parties continue to evolve. However, a circuit party tends to be a multi-event weekend that occurs each year at around the same time and in the same town . . . ." Gordon Mansergh, Grant Colfax, et al., "The Circuit Party Men's Health Survey: Findings and Implications for Gay and Bisexual Men," American Journal of Public Health, 91(6): 953-958, p. 953 (June 2001).
Ibid., p. 955.
Ibid., p. 956.
Ibid., pp. 956-957, Tables 2 & 3.
Ibid., pp. 956-957.
Ibid., p. 957. The authors' recommendation was more education.
Julie Robotham, "Safe sex by arrangement as gay men reject condoms," Sydney Morning Herald, June 7, 2001. Data source: 2000 Male Out Survey, National Centre in HIV Social Research, Australia.
R. S. Hogg, S. A. Strathdee, et al., "Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men," International Journal of Epidemiology, 26(3): 657-661, p. 659 (1997). Death as the result of HIV infection has dropped significantly since 1996. "Life Expectancy Hits New High in 2000; Mortality Declines for Several Leading Causes of Death," CDC News Release, October 10, 2001, www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/01news/mort2k.htm. Nevertheless, it remains a significant factor in shortened life expectancy for homosexual practitioners.
Press Release, Smoking costs nation $150 billion each year in health costs, lost productivity, CDC, Office of Communication, April 12, 2002, www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/ pressrel/r020412.htm.
Hogg, et al., p. 660.
Ibid.
"Hepatitis A vaccination of men who have sex with men — Atlanta, Georgia, 1996-1997," Morbidity and Mortality Report, CDC, 47(34): 708-711 (September 4, 1998).
Robert T. Michael, et al., p. 89.
Ibid., p. 101.
Camille Paglia, "I'll take religion over gay culture," Salon.com online magazine, June 1998, www.frontpagemag.com/archives/guest_column/ paglia/gayculture.htm.
Gordon Mansergh, Grant Colfax, et al., p. 955.
Joseph Harry, Gay Couples, p. 116, New York: Praeger Books, 1984.
Marcel T. Saghir, M.D. and Eli Robins, M.D., Male and Female Homosexuality: A Comprehensive Investigation, p. 57 Table 4.13, p. 225 Table 12.10, Baltimore: The Williams & Wilkins Company, 1973.
The existence of limited homosexual relationships in primitive cultures, or even extensive homosexuality in declining civilizations, such as those cited by advocates of same-sex marriage, does not challenge the existence of a prevailing norm. See, for example, William N. Eskridge, Jr., The Case for Same-Sex Marriage, Chapter 2, New York: The Free Press, 1996.
Joseph D. Unwin, "Sexual Regulations and Cultural Behaviour," pp. 18-19, reprint of Oxford University Press publication of speech given before the Medical Section of the British Psychological Society, March 27, 1935.
For example, see the website of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, Inc., www.ncsfreedom.org.
"The ACLU believes that criminal and civil laws prohibiting or penalizing the practice of plural marriage violate constitutional protections . . . ." 1992 Policy Guide of the ACLU, Policy #91, p. 175.
Judith Levine, Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2002; Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch, and Robert Bauserman, "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples," Psychological Bulletin, 124(1): 22-53 (July 1998).
Paglia, June 23, 1998.
Rotello, p. 42.
Goode, August 19, 2001.
Ibid.
See Michael Hamrick, The Hidden Costs of Domestic Partner Benefits, pp. 3-4 (Corporate Resource Council, 2002).
David Gelman, et al., "Tune In, Come Out," Newsweek, p. 70, November 8, 1993.
"Iowa study suggests tolerance of homosexuals is growing," Associated Press, March 23, 2001.
Sally Kohn, The Domestic Partnership Organizing Manual for Employee Benefits, p. 1, the Policy Institute of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, www.ngltf.org/ downloads/dp-/dp_99.pdf.
John Horgan, "Gay Genes, Revisited," Scientific American, p. 26, November 1995.
Matthew Brelis, "The Fading 'Gay Gene,'" The Boston Globe, March 20, 2002, p. C1.
Michael, et al., p. 172.
Lynn Scherr, "Lesbian Leader Loves a Man," ABCNews.com, April 17, 1998.
"Former Lesbian Anne Heche Engaged to Cameraman," ABCNews.com, June 1, 2001 (emphasis added), reprinted at www.gaywired.com/index.cfm?linkPage=/storydetail.cf m&Section=68&ID=5304.
"The Facts: Anne Heche," Eonline.msn, April 1, 2002, www.eonline.com/Facts/People/Bio/0,128,31319,00.html.
"Sinead O'Connor to Marry a Man," Reuters, June 27, 2000, www.q.co.za/2001.2001.06.27-sinead.html.
"Sinead Drops out of Wotapalava Tour," JAM! Music, May 31, 2001, www.canoe.ca/JamMusicArtistsO/oconnor_ sinead.html.
John Stoltenberg, "Living with Andrea Dworkin," Lambda Book Report, May/June 1994, reprinted at www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/LivingWithAnd rea.html.
Julie Robotham, "Safe sex by arrangement as gay men reject condoms," The Sydney Morning Herald, June 7, 2001. Data source: "2000 Male Out Survey," National Centre in HIV Social Research, Australia.
Michael, et al., p. 172.
Edward O. Laumann, John H. Gagnon, et al., The social organization of sexuality: Sexual practices in the United States, p. 293, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994; Michael, et al., p. 176; David Forman and Clair Chilvers, "Sexual Behavior of Young and Middle-Aged Men in England and Wales," British Medical Journal, 298: 1137-1142 (1989); and Gary Remafedi, et al., "Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents," Pediatrics, 89: 714-721 (1992).
For additional information about how corporate policies can improve employees' health as well as their work-life balance, please contact Paul Weber at the Corporate Resource Council, (480) 444-0030.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Dr. John R. Diggs, Jr., "The Health Risks of Gay Sex." Corporate Resource Council (2002).

All rights reserved. Permission is granted to reprint this document in its entirety, with proper attribution.

THE AUTHOR

Dr. John R. Diggs, Jr. is a practicing Internist with first-hand experience in treating many of the problems described in this paper. He also travels and lectures on a variety of medical topics to audiences around the world.

[Spurminator]

From 1994 to 1997, the percentage of homosexual men reporting multiple partners and unprotected anal sex rose from 23.6 percent to 33.3 percent, with the largest increase among men under 25.

That's all? 33% is not most. And, most likely, the men wanting to adopt wouldn't be among the more promiscuous.

That number is almost mindbogglingly low! Hell, how many heterosexuals have had multiple partners and unprotected sex?

The rest of the study (I skimmed, so correct me if I'm wrong) seems to center around the physical harm that homosexual sex causes. But that is also the case for lifestyles practiced by many heterosexual families. How many McDonalds cheeseburgers does it take to reach the level of harm that one homosexual encounter causes in one's body? Not many. How many hours of laziness or television?

He goes on to make the flawed argument that social acceptance of homosexuality leads to social acceptance of things like pedophilia. What does this have to do homosexuals wanting to adopt? We're going to take that right away from them in order to avoid some hypothetical slippery slope?

I made a mistake by asking for evidence of these "unhealthy lifestyles," when I should have asked you to qualify what you mean by "unhealthy" and how those lifestyles are more unhealthy than common lifestyles of straight men. If it's all about the anal sex, I'm not convinced in the least.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Crookshanks, I read somewhere that in the States, there are actually more black men in prison than there are in college. Does this mean ALL black families should be prohibited from adopting?

Why can't a homosexual couple be put under the same scrutiny and be held to the same expectations as a normal couple? Must you immediately prohibit them from adopting simply because of how they choose to have sex? Seriously now

What you are advocating here is that, no matter how decent, loving and adequate a homosexual home can be, the government should prohibit ANY homosexual couple from adopting, simply because the gay stereotype is one of promiscuity and degradation (which I believe to be bullshit).

[jochhejaam]

What you are advocating here is that, no matter how decent, loving and adequate a homosexual home can be, the government should prohibit ANY homosexual couple from adopting, simply because the gay stereotype is one of promiscuity and degradation (which I believe to be bullshit).
I grew up with both a Mom and a Dad and it would have horrible to have not had one of them let alone having two of the same. How confusing is that? (at this time I won't get into God's judgement for those who participate in deviant sexual behaviour which without repenting of leads to Hell).

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I grew up with both a Mom and a Dad and it would have horrible to have not had one of them let alone having two of the same. How confusing is that? (at this time I won't get into God's judgement for those who participate in deviant sexual behaviour which without repenting of leads to Hell).
So by your reasoning, a couple consisting of a midget man and a woman shouldn't be allowed to adopt either. God knows how confusing that can be http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif What the hell does it matter if the kid has 2 fathers?? If they both love him, provide and care for him, why shouldn't they be able to adopt?? Somebody with a reasonable theory por favor!


(at this time I won't get into God's judgement for those who participate in deviant sexual behaviour which without repenting of leads to Hell)
good thing you didn't get into that, 'cause you would have looked like an ass http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif.

[jochhejaam]

So by your reasoning, a couple consisting of a midget man and a woman shouldn't be allowed to adopt either. God knows how confusing that can be [img]
I'm stunned that you would interpret my post to mean that. I'm not trying to be funny but do you consume excessive amounts of alcohol on Fridays?
(God doesn't think midgets are confusing)



good thing you didn't get into that, 'cause you would have looked like an ass http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif.
The last time I provided you with the information you requested that (Nigeria thread/scientific proof that life begins at conception) made your stand null and void you ignored it. I may get into it but the one who you'll be accusing of being an ass will be (as I will be citing Scripture) God...do you really want to go there amigo? :)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The last time I provided you with the information you requested that (Nigeria thread/scientific proof that life begins at conception) made your stand null and void you ignored it. I may get into it but the one who you'll be accusing of being an ass will be (as I will be citing Scripture) God...do you really want to go there amigo? :)
you called that a scientific article?? written by none other thana priest??? Give me a SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE! from a respected magazine, anything, if you do that, I'll be more than satisfied.

Either way, you're getting off the subject, this is not about abortiong, this is gay adoption rights, and your arguments about it so far have been nothing but garbage.

[jochhejaam]

you called that a scientific article?? written by none other thana priest??? Give me a SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE! from a respected magazine, anything, if you do that, I'll be more than satisfied.

Either way, you're getting off the subject, this is not about abortiong, this is gay adoption rights, and your arguments about it so far have been nothing but garbage.
I didn't bring abortion into this thread, you did. I was implying that no amount of facts are going to change a closed mind (yours).

[Peace777]

Okay, so several of you think the article above is bs. Just google "health concerns pertaining to homosexuals" and see what you get. MANY articles from various sources. Go ahead - educate yourselves and then come back and tell us what you've learned!

[PM5K]

I probably shoudn't say this, but all kinds of disgusting things not only happen between homosexuals, I'm sure that hetero couples practice all sorts of sordid things like fisting, anal intercourse, golden showers, cheating, etc, etc...

[jochhejaam]

Okay, so several of you think the article above is bs. Just google "health concerns pertaining to homosexuals" and see what you get. MANY articles from various sources. Go ahead - educate yourselves and then come back and tell us what you've learned!
First Post, welcome to the forum Peace777.

[Peter]

The response to the "health concerns" observation would be that homosexuals engage in behavior outside the mainstream, so likely their relationships are impacted by that.

The question I see in regards to gay adoption is the one I see in regards to all over gay issues...if we are going to open up marriage, adoption, etc based on how people fuck, why stop at 2 individuals? Don't tell me that it's traditional for 2 people to have a relationship because that only returns us to the status quo.

Polygamy, incest, beastiality, etc should all be legit then. Who are we to judge, after all?

[Peter]

I'd add that heterosexual sex is also ripe for the transmission of disease and it's not like only homosexuals engage in anal sex, oral-anal contact, etc...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I didn't bring abortion into this thread, you did. I was implying that no amount of facts are going to change a closed mind (yours).
when did I bring abortion into this thread?? give me a break! Besides I find it convenient that I'm the one with the closed mind, and I suppose you are the one with the truth, right? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[Trainwreck2100]

wow that is perhaps the WORST psuedo-scientific-medical article i have ever read in my life.

congratulaation, you get a cookie.


Bullshit you read all that.

[Trainwreck2100]

Not neccessarily they could lie to future husbands/wives, get knocked up. Wait for the child to reach the age of reason then come out of the closet having beenraised in a gay friendly environment. After all it worked for Sheryll Swoops.


I'm telling you it's the best solution

[Trainwreck2100]

WTF is "natural" anyway? I assume you must live in the woods and eat only what you can catch, since being natural is so important to you.

Natural-"occuring in nature"
Gay parents don't occur in nature, anywhere. Cause it's impossible.

[Mr. Peabody]

Natural-"occuring in nature"
Gay parents don't occur in nature, anywhere. Cause it's impossible.

Marriage doesn't occur in nature. So, I guess having married parents is also an unnatural situation.

[Mr. Peabody]

The question I see in regards to gay adoption is the one I see in regards to all over gay issues...if we are going to open up marriage, adoption, etc based on how people fuck, why stop at 2 individuals? Don't tell me that it's traditional for 2 people to have a relationship because that only returns us to the status quo.

Polygamy, incest, beastiality, etc should all be legit then. Who are we to judge, after all?

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are states, not activities. Polygamy, incest, bestiality are all activities.

Polygamy, bestiality and incest are also illegal for both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Also, this a ridiculous argument, one that is traditionally used to deny civil rights and liberties to groups of minorities. It's nice to see you resort to it.

[Mr. Peabody]

For those of us who believe homosexuality is a choice reinforced by environment and influence, it is disconcerting to have innocent children placed in that environment.



If you're right, it means:

Gay Parents = Gay Children

Straight Parents = Straight Children

That is obviously not the case.

[Mr. Peabody]

It will be some years yet before a definitive analysis can be done. And what if the study shows it was harmful - what do we say to the innocent children - OOPS, my bad, we shouldn't have put you in that environment?

I think there is quite a bit of evidence that shows that MOST (not all) homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles (especially the males). Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?

I would venture to say MOST PEOPLE live unhealthy lifestyles. Have you seen how obese many people and their children are becoming these days?

[Mr. Peabody]

I grew up with both a Mom and a Dad and it would have horrible to have not had one of them let alone having two of the same. How confusing is that? (at this time I won't get into God's judgement for those who participate in deviant sexual behaviour which without repenting of leads to Hell).

Right, which is why we as a society don't allow single parents households to have children. :rolleyes

[jochhejaam]

Right, which is why we as a society don't allow single parents households to have children. :rolleyes
Take your time when you read the posts, it clearly states that the confusion comes with having two same sex parents.

[Peter]

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are states, not activities. Polygamy, incest, bestiality are all activities.


Hetero- and Homosexual behavior is most certainly an activity. Those predisposed to engage in polygamy, incest and beastiality most certainly possess a state as well.




Polygamy, bestiality and incest are also illegal for both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Right, behavior (an expression of those states) is prohibited by tradition.




Also, this a ridiculous argument, one that is traditionally used to deny civil rights and liberties to groups of minorities. It's nice to see you resort to it.

Not any more ridiculous than any of your arguments. Sorry to expose the inherent flaw in your argument.

[Mr. Peabody]

Not any more ridiculous than any of your arguments. Sorry to expose the inherent flaw in your argument.

Maybe, but I am not using any of my "ridiculous" arguments as a reason to deny civil liberties to a minority group.

[Mr. Peabody]

Take your time when you read the posts, it clearly states that the confusion comes with having two same sex parents.

What he is implying is that there is confusion when you have "non-traditional" household. I was arguing that kids are raised in non-traditional households all over the country.

[Peter]

Maybe, but I am not using any of my "ridiculous" arguments as a reason to deny civil liberties to a minority group.

Then no "minority group" can be denied.

[Mr. Peabody]

How can you be so confident gay adoption is not harmful for the child being adopted?



Teens With Same-Sex Parents Well-Adjusted
Study: Those with two moms live as normally as their peers
By Karen Pallarito
HealthDay Reporter


MONDAY, Nov. 15 (HealthDayNews) -- Adolescents who have two moms as parents are no different from teens growing up with a mother and a father, a new study finds.

On measures of psychosocial well-being, school functioning, and romantic relationships and behaviors, the teens with same-sex parents were as well adjusted as their peers with opposite-sex parents. The authors found very few differences between the two groups. A more important predictor of teens' psychological and social adjustment, they found, is the quality of the relationships they have with their parents.

"This is the first study that has looked at adolescents with same-sex parents in a national sample, and it shows clearly across a wide range of variables that they're doing pretty well," said study author Charlotte J. Patterson, a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

The research, published in the November issue of Child Development , draws data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, a school-based study of the health-related behaviors of kids in grades 7-12.

Dr. Ellen C. Perrin, a professor of pediatrics at Tufts School of Medicine and an expert on the development of children with gay or lesbian parents, said that few studies have focused on adolescents of same-sex parents. What data there is has been subject to attack. Critics complain that the studies reflect researcher bias and non-random participant selection.

"In this case, neither of those critiques are valid," Perrin said. The new study uses data from a broad population-based survey conducted for entirely different reasons. "That makes it very clean, so to speak; no one could argue that there was any bias involved."

Estimates of the number of teens living with same-sex parents are hard to come by. As of 1990, 6 million to 14 million children were living with a gay or lesbian parent, says the National Adoption Information Clearinghouse, a service of the U.S. Administration for Children and Families.

Perrin believes that a majority of these children were born into heterosexual families. "Only recently have there been increasing numbers of kids born or adopted into already stable same-sex couples," she explained.

The study sample included 44 children, 12 to 18 years old, parented by same-sex couples and an equivalent number of peers with opposite-sex parents. The two groups had an equal number of girls and boys and other similarities, including ethnic background, family income, and parents' level of education.

Overall, researchers found no significant differences between the two groups. Teens with two moms, for example, were neither more nor less likely than their peers with two opposite-sex parents to report having been involved in a romantic relationship during the past year or ever having sex. Both groups were generally well-adjusted, with relatively high levels of self-esteem, relatively low levels of anxiety, and good achievement in school.

The study reveals a minor difference: "The kids of same-sex parents said that they feel more connected at school," Patterson said. In other words, they felt their teachers were more open to them, and that people at school were fair and cared for them. "I think that may be a chance finding, frankly," she said.

While family type wasn't a factor in how teens fared, family relationships were. When parents reported more positive relationships with their teenagers, for instance, the teens reported lower levels of depressive symptoms.

"The qualities of teenagers' relationships with their parents are much better predictors of their overall well-being," Patterson noted.

More information

The National Adoption Information Clearinghouse has more on issues and concerns surrounding gay parenting .

SOURCES: Charlotte J. Patterson, Ph.D., professor of psychology, University of Virginia, Charlottesville; Ellen C. Perrin, M.D., professor of pediatrics, Tufts School of Medicine and chief, Division of Developmental-Behavioral Pediatrics, Floating Hospital for Children, Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston; November 2004 Child Development

[Mr. Peabody]

Then no "minority group" can be denied.

Look, if you have a valid reason to deny certain rights and liberties to a minority group, go ahead and make your arguments. But if your reason is merely, "Well, if we give (random minority group -- Blacks, women, homosexuals) these rights, where does it end? Should (insert a plant, animal, or some vilified group here) have these rights, as well?"

It's a argument frequently relied on by ignorant bigots. And the fact that you would compare homosexuals to pedophiles or those committing bestiality shows that you fall into this category.

[Mr. Peabody]

How can you be so confident gay adoption is not harmful for the child being adopted?



This is from the American Pyschological Association

http://www.apa.org/

Empirical Studies on Lesbian and Gay Parenting

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ainslie, J., & Feltey, K.M. (1991). Definitions and dynamics of motherhood and family in lesbian communities. Marriage and Family Review, 17, (1/2), 63-85.



Reports results of a study of the meaning of motherhood and family to lesbian mothers, how these meanings are created and maintained both in the lesbian community and outside world, and the centrality of lesbian feminist communities to the lives of lesbian women and their children. Uses an explicitly feminist framework and interactive social psychological perspective. Includes intensive interviews with 17 lesbian mothers who were involved in lesbian feminist communities. Interviewees were mostly White women who ranged in age from 25 to 48, and the children ranged in age from 2 to 28. All respondents were biological mothers of the children they were raising and viewed motherhood as a positive forum for social change. They taught children feminist principles and organized their families accordingly--each person treated as a unique individual. Lesbian feminist communities provided support and a social context in which the families felt at home. The lack of language to describe the relationships in extended lesbian families was a common theme.



Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M., & Mikach, S. (1995). Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers. Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129.


Reports the result of a study of 55 gay or bisexual men who had a total of 82 sons at least 17 years of age. The fathers were recruited through advertisements in gay publications. Eighty-nine percent of the fathers identified themselves as gay. The rest identified themselves as bisexual. More than 90% of the sons whose sexual orientation could be rated were heterosexual. The sexual orientation of the sons was not positively correlated with the amount of time the sons lived with their fathers. The authors conclude that the available evidence fails to provide empirical grounds for denying child custody to lesbian and gay parents because of concern about the effect on the child's sexual orientation.



Baptiste, D.A., (1987). Psycho-therapy with gay/lesbian couples and their children in stepfamilies: A challenge for marriage and family therapists. Journal of Homosexuality, 14 (1/2), 223-238.


Assesses lesbian and gay subjects who previously had been heterosexually married on five dimensions: personal traits, marital history, marital problems and their impact, and comfort with their gay identity. Discusses issues about the physical custody; the proportion of custody determinations that were conflictual and personally destructive; satisfaction regarding custody arrangements; the percentage of lesbian/gay parents who were open with their children about their sexual orientation; how the disclosure was made; the impact on the children of the parent's coming out; and the frequency of reported difficulties experienced by the children because of their parent's sexual orientation.



Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1989). The value of children to gay and heterosexual fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18 (1/2), 163-172.


Reports on similarities and differences between 33 heterosexual fathers (aged 26-55 years) and 33 matched gay fathers who responded to the value of children questionnaire. Overall scores for both groups did not differ. Significant differences were found in two sub-scales (Tradition-Continuity-Security and Social Status). Gay fathers reported that their marriage and family orientation reflected a traditional attitude toward family life and served to protect against societal rejection. Sample reported on was a self-selected group of gay fathers attending a self-help group. Comparison group was constructed from a larger sample of men who are fathers, without knowledge of the men's sexual orientation.



Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1989). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18(1/2), 173-186.


An empirical study of the differences and similarities between 33 gay fathers and 33 nongay fathers as reflected in their responses to the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. Fathers of both types were quite similar on degree of involvement and level of intimacy with children. Gay fathers were generally more strict, but were also more responsive, and took more care in socializing their children than their nongay counterparts. The convenience nature of the sample of gay fathers (all drawn from a support group for gay fathers) makes generalizations to other gay fathers problematic. No data are available on the sexual orientation of the control group drawn at random from a pre-existing group of study participants. Makes no claim to generalizability, recognizing the limits of their sampling procedures, yet speculates on the nature of the differences between the two groups, suggesting the more socially desirable behavior of the gay fathers may result from perceived pressure to be a "good" father, which they feel more acutely than their nongay counterparts.



Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1992). Adult responses to child behavior and attitudes toward fathering: Gay and nongay fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 23(3), 99-112.


Provides a concise review of research on gay fathers and reports the results of a study of 24 gay and 29 nongay fathers. Finds a high degree of similarity between the two groups of fathers with regard to parenting styles and attitudes toward fathering. Discusses methodological short-comings, including the lack of standardization of the instruments used and the familiar limitations of convenience sampling that plagues much of gay and lesbian research.



Bozett, F. W. (1981). Gay fathers: Evolution of the gay-father identity. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51(3), 552-559.


Reports the results of an exploratory interview study of 18 gay fathers (28-51 years old). Reveals that as the men participate in both the gay world and the world of fathers they begin to develop a congruent identity. Concludes that the gay father's self-disclosure of his identity as father in the gay world and as gay in the father world is crucial to the gay father's achievement of self-acceptance.



Dunne, E. J. (1987). Helping gay fathers come out to their children. Journal of Homosexuality, 14(1/2), 213-222.


Discusses the obstacles to disclosure that gay fathers confront in coming out to their children. Describes a time-limited, role-play group designed to assist seven gay fathers to develop effective responses to a variety of situations they are likely to face. Six-month follow-up revealed that two members had voluntarily disclosed their identity to their children and a third reported that the group helped him to respond to parental confrontation about his sexual orientation. All reported that the group helped them feel more comfortable about their children eventually knowing about their sexual orientation



Flaks, D. K., Ficher I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood. A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 105-114..


Compares a group of 15 White lesbian couples living together with their 3-9 year old children born to them through artificial insemination with a matched sample of heterosexual parents and their children. A variety of assessment measures including the Child Behavior Checklist, Teacher's Report Form, the Spanier Dyadic Adjustment Scale, the Parent Awareness Skills Survey and either the WPPSI-R or WISC-R were used to measure the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children. Both groups of parents showed similar dyadic adjustment. However, the lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did the heterosexual couples.



Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.


Compares aspects of child development in 27 lesbian households with a total of 37 children (aged 5-17 years) and 27 heterosexual single-parent households with a total of 38 children (aged 15-17 years). Data were gathered through systematic standardized interviews with mothers and children and through parent and teacher questionnaires. Ratings of the children's psychosexual and psychiatric status were done "blind" to family circumstances. Results indicated no differences between the children of lesbian and heterosexual mothers in gender identity or sex-role behavior. There was no evidence of inappropriate gender identity among the children of lesbian mothers, and age and developmentally appropriate friendships and good peer relationships were observed in both groups. Psychiatric problems among the children were infrequent in both groups but proportionately higher in the heterosexual single-parent group. Limitations of the study were that the follow-up period was short, and the children were not old enough for sexual orientation to be documented behaviorally.



Green, R. (1978). Sexual identity of 37 children raised by homosexual or transsexual parents. American Journal of Psychiatry, 135, 692-697.


Thirty-seven subjects aged 3-20 years were either raised by lesbian women (21) or by transsexuals (16). Subjects had lived in these households from 1-16 years, with a mean time of 4.9 years. All but one subject indicated that toys, games, clothing, and gender of peers were typical for their gender. Thirteen older subjects indicated erotic fantasies or sexual behaviors, and all these subjects were heterosexual in orientation.



Green R. (1982). The best interests of the child with a lesbian mother. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 10, 7-15.



Reviews theoretical models and empirical data concerning whether a homosexual parent or two homosexual individuals in parenting roles increases the chance that children will have a homosexual orientation. Also describes court evaluations of adults and children in lesbian custody cases. Fifty-eight children (aged 3-11 years) being raised by lesbian mothers were compared with 43 demographically matched children of divorced heterosexual mothers. Evaluation instruments included the Draw-A-Person test, questions regarding sex-typed activities, and future plans. There were no significant differences for boys or girls in either group of families. It is concluded that difficulties experienced by children in lesbian mother households stem from reactions to divorce and not from the mother's lesbianism.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok, jochhejaam, see that is a scientific source, maybe you could learn something

[Peter]

Look, if you have a valid reason to deny certain rights and liberties to a minority group, go ahead and make your arguments. But if your reason is merely, "Well, if we give (random minority group -- Blacks, women, homosexuals) these rights, where does it end? Should (insert a plant, animal, or some vilified group here) have these rights, as well?"

Maybe it should end when you start equating sexual desire and behavior with race.




It's a argument frequently relied on by ignorant bigots. And the fact that you would compare homosexuals to pedophiles or those committing bestiality shows that you fall into this category.

Nice. When the flaw in your argument has been exposed, call people names. Weak.

I see you're incapable of open and respectful debate.

[Mr. Peabody]

Nice. When the flaw in your argument has been exposed, call people names. Weak.

I see you're incapable of open and respectful debate.


Your argument is that if we grant homosexuals, a group whose activities are not illegal, certain rights, then soon we will have to grant other groups, groups committing illegal acts, the same rights as well.

And I am the one with the flaw in my argument?

Also, I called you an ignorant bigot, because you equated homosexuals with pedophiles and those committing bestiality. If you don't see a difference between those groups, then yes, you are an ignorant bigot.

[Peter]

Your argument is that if we grant homosexuals, a group whose activities are not illegal, certain rights, then soon we will have to grant other groups, groups committing illegal acts, the same rights as well.

Perhaps those acts are illegal for much the same reason that homosexual acts were once illegal? Ever manage to consider that? Apparently not. You were too busy jumping to conclusions and labelling those who disagree with you.




And I am the one with the flaw in my argument?


Yes.




Also, I called you an ignorant bigot, because you equated homosexuals with pedophiles and those committing bestiality. If you don't see a difference between those groups, then yes, you are an ignorant bigot.

And you're an individual with poor self-esteem who has to compensate by calling people names on the internets. If you can't see that you'll never be happy. Late.

[Mr. Peabody]

Maybe it should end when you start equating sexual desire and behavior with race.


Why? They are both immutable traits.

You can't control being born gay, any more than you can control being born Black.

[Mr. Peabody]

And you're an individual with poor self-esteem who has to compensate by calling people names on the internets. If you can't see that you'll never be happy. Late.

I label one person on the internet an ignorant bigot and I am "an individual with....bla bla bla."

Yet, you denigrate an entire segment of society. So what does that make you? (please stop and think about this)

[jochhejaam]

Peabody, if you had 2 children ages 2 months and 2 years and you weren't able to care for them would you prefer they be placed in a home with the traditional Mom and Dad or would you prefer that they be place in a home with Mom and Mom or Dad and Dad?

Gay marriage’ and homosexuality: some medical comments

There are increased rates of mental ill health among the homosexual population compared to the general population. Many studies show much higher rates of psychiatric illness, such as depression, suicide attempts and drug abuse among homosexuals then among the general population. The homosexual lifestyle is associated with a shortened life expectancy of up to 20 years.

In a New Zealand study, data were gathered on a range of psychiatric disorders among gay, lesbian, and bisexual young people. At the age of 21, homosexuals/bisexuals were at fourfold increased risks of major depression and conduct disorder, fivefold increased risk of nicotine dependence, twofold increased risk of other substance misuse or addiction and six times more likely to have attempted suicide. (Fergusson DM et al. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999; 56: 876-80.)


In a recent US study of the mental health of homosexuals, it was found that gay/bisexual men had a more than 3-fold increased risk of major depression and a five-fold increased risk of panic disorder. They were three times as likely to rate their mental health as only 'fair' or 'poor' and to experience high levels of distress. Gay/bisexual women had a nearly four-fold increased risk of general anxiety disorder and both groups were more than three times as likely than the general population to require treatment in a mental health setting. (Cochran S. et al. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental health services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. J Consult Clin Psychol. 2003; 71 :53-61.)


It is claimed, that the high rates of mental illness among homosexuals are the result of 'homophobia'. However, even in the Netherlands, which has been far more tolerant to same-sex relationships and which has recently legalised same-sex marriages, high levels of psychiatric illness, including major depression, bipolar disorder ('manic depression'), agoraphobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and drug addiction are found. (Sandfort TG, et al. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS). Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.)


Furthermore, if 'homophobia' and prejudices were the cause of the high rates of psychiatric disorders and suicide attempts among homosexuals, one would similarly expect to find higher rates of suicide attempts and suicide among ethnic minorities exposed to racism. However, this is not usually the case.


In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Hogg RS et al. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. International Journal of Epidemiology.1997; 26:657-61)

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0095.html

So you want to place children in homes with people that have a high occurence of Mental disorders, practice deviant sexual behaviour and have greatly heightened health risks and then multiply the problems by two... Definitely doesn't sound like people I'd trust with my children.

[Mr. Peabody]

Peabody, if you had 2 children ages 2 months and 2 years and you weren't able to care for them would you prefer they be placed in a home with the traditional Mom and Dad or would you prefer that they be place in a home with Mom and Mom or Dad and Dad?

I would want my children to be raised by a couple that would love and take care of them. I am sure that there are many gay couples that could do this. And I am also sure that there are many straight couples who couldn't do this.



So you want to place children in homes with people that have a high occurence of Mental disorders, practice deviant sexual behaviour and have greatly heightened health risks and then multiply the problems by two... Definitely doesn't sound like people I'd trust with my children.

Look at the studies above that I have posted. Children raised by gay couples are no different than children raised by straight couples.

You keep talking about potential harm to the children and yet, study after study shows that the child is not harmed. So what is your argument?

[jochhejaam]

Also, I called you an ignorant bigot, because you equated homosexuals with pedophiles and those committing bestiality. If you don't see a difference between those groups, then yes, you are an ignorant bigot.

They are all grouped into the category of sexual disorders, do you know for a fact that the sexual disorder associated with homosexuality doesn't make them prone or more inclined to engage in the criminalized sexual disorder of pedophilia?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Mr. Peabody]I would want my children to be raised by a couple that would love and take care of them. I am sure that there are many gay couples that could do this. And I am also sure that there are many straight couples who couldn't do this.
You avoided the question, which would be your preference?

[Mr. Peabody]

You avoided the question, which would be your preference?

I didn't avoid the question. My answer was that it would depend on the people. It's the same answer I would give you if you asked me to choose between a Black couple, a Chicano couple, or a white couple to raise my kids. It would depend on the people.

[jochhejaam]

I didn't avoid the question. .

No, you avoided a direct answer but I see it's a dead end question with you, fair enough.

[Mr. Peabody]

No, you avoided a direct answer but I see it's a dead end question with you, fair enough.

Look, if you can show me some studies demonstrating that being raised by gay parents is harmful to a child, I would be more inclined to listen to your arguments.

All the studies I have seem suggest the opposite. That being the case, I can only assume that this argument really isn't about the welfare of the children, after all the studies show they are fine, it's really about attacking homosexuals.

This is evidenced by the fact that the same slippery slope arguments that were made during the gay marriage debate (if we give it to them, we must give it to all), are now being made on the gay adoption issue (a la Peter's hate-inspired post).

Anyway, I've enjoyed the conversation (Peter, I hope I've broadened your horizons, even if just slightly), but life beckons.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Peabody, if you had 2 children ages 2 months and 2 years and you weren't able to care for them would you prefer they be placed in a home with the traditional Mom and Dad or would you prefer that they be place in a home with Mom and Mom or Dad and Dad?

Gay marriage’ and homosexuality: some medical comments

There are increased rates of mental ill health among the homosexual population compared to the general population. Many studies show much higher rates of psychiatric illness, such as depression, suicide attempts and drug abuse among homosexuals then among the general population. The homosexual lifestyle is associated with a shortened life expectancy of up to 20 years.

In a New Zealand study, data were gathered on a range of psychiatric disorders among gay, lesbian, and bisexual young people. At the age of 21, homosexuals/bisexuals were at fourfold increased risks of major depression and conduct disorder, fivefold increased risk of nicotine dependence, twofold increased risk of other substance misuse or addiction and six times more likely to have attempted suicide. (Fergusson DM et al. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999; 56: 876-80.)


In a recent US study of the mental health of homosexuals, it was found that gay/bisexual men had a more than 3-fold increased risk of major depression and a five-fold increased risk of panic disorder. They were three times as likely to rate their mental health as only 'fair' or 'poor' and to experience high levels of distress. Gay/bisexual women had a nearly four-fold increased risk of general anxiety disorder and both groups were more than three times as likely than the general population to require treatment in a mental health setting. (Cochran S. et al. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental health services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. J Consult Clin Psychol. 2003; 71 :53-61.)


It is claimed, that the high rates of mental illness among homosexuals are the result of 'homophobia'. However, even in the Netherlands, which has been far more tolerant to same-sex relationships and which has recently legalised same-sex marriages, high levels of psychiatric illness, including major depression, bipolar disorder ('manic depression'), agoraphobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and drug addiction are found. (Sandfort TG, et al. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS). Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.)


Furthermore, if 'homophobia' and prejudices were the cause of the high rates of psychiatric disorders and suicide attempts among homosexuals, one would similarly expect to find higher rates of suicide attempts and suicide among ethnic minorities exposed to racism. However, this is not usually the case.


In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Hogg RS et al. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. International Journal of Epidemiology.1997; 26:657-61)

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0095.html

So you want to place children in homes with people that have a high occurence of Mental disorders, practice deviant sexual behaviour and have greatly heightened health risks and then multiply the problems by two... Definitely doesn't sound like people I'd trust with my children.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif You seem intent on passing those pseudo-scientifici religious websites as hard proof of your arguments. Come on joch! are you serious??? Get me a REAL, respected, and well known scientific source that states that children are better off in hetero households, and THEN you can brag about having a flawless argument and us being closed minded. HAHA unbelievebable!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Perhaps those acts are illegal for much the same reason that homosexual acts were once illegal? Ever manage to consider that?

what? I didn't understand that, could you elaborate please? because last time I checked homosexual acts in the past have been illegal because of ignorance and missuderstanding, so if anything, you are proving Peabody's point.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You avoided the question, which would be your preference? He did not avoid your question at all! He answered preety clearly. YOu on the other hand seem discontent with his answer, that is your problem. You asked him which would he prefer raising his children a hetero couple or a gay couple, and he quite clearly told you that it would depend on the couple. You wanted a black or white answer, and that is never possible. I for one, agree with Peabody, if the homosexual couple is decent and hardworking I would definately consider them. Apparently you wouldn't.

[Trainwreck2100]

Marriage doesn't occur in nature. So, I guess having married parents is also an unnatural situation.

Yes, because all animals mate and split up right afterwards.


Edit: I didn't know this was about gay marriage. Thanks for not arguing my point.

[Mr. Peabody]

Natural-"occuring in nature"
Gay parents don't occur in nature, anywhere. Cause it's impossible.



Marriage also doesn't occur in nature. So, I guess having married parents is also an unnatural situation.


I didn't know this was about gay marriage. Thanks for not arguing my point.

:wtf

[Peter]

what? I didn't understand that, could you elaborate please? because last time I checked homosexual acts in the past have been illegal because of ignorance and missuderstanding, so if anything, you are proving Peabody's point.

I only proved my point, which is that the rationale for banning those activities was the same essential reason why homosexual acts were banned. Polygamy is a perfect example. It was banned due to it being deemed immoral, yet it has been allowed in some cultures in the past, much like homosexual relationships. A reason why it has been made illegal is because it went against the majority religious viewpoint in the West over the last few centuries (at least). The ban is based upon a tradition which is arbitrary and discriminatory. There is no reason why 3 or more people cannot have a relationship. Those who wish to practice polygamy do so often out of their own religious belief and are unfairly discriminated against, which should make them a "minority" and should make those who disagree with me "ignorant bigots".

[Nbadan]

Nice discussion everyone, but Mr. Peabody, defaming people has never been condusive to promoting mutual respect in this forum.

That said, no one is born a polygamist, or a sadist, or any other of the real preversions found in societies around the world throughout time. What it comes do to is whether you believe that all gay people are born gay, or that some people are naturally predispositioned to be gay and are somewhat affected by their environment. I don't think anyone seriously believes that a hetrosexual is going to become gay just because one of his parents turns out to be gay, or is being raised by gay parents, that just silly.

[jochhejaam]

Nice discussion everyone, but Mr. Peabody, defaming people has never been condusive to promoting mutual respect in this forum.

That said, no one is born a polygamist, or a sadist, or any other of the real preversions found in societies around the world throughout time. What it comes do to is whether you believe that all gay people are born gay, or that some people are naturally predispositioned to be gay and are somewhat affected by their environment. I don't think anyone seriously believes that a hetrosexual is going to become gay just because one of his parents turns out to be gay, or is being raised by gay parents, that just silly.
I agree with that although IMO the child raised in the home of those that practice illicit or unethical behaviour, be it racism, homosexuality, satanic worship, drug use, alcoholism or whatever it may be would in all probablilty be much more inclined to take on those behaviours than one in a home where those behaviours are not practiced.

Speaking from a strictly Biblical viewpoint those who unrepentingly practice deviant sexual behaviour, in this case homosexuality, will receive God's judgement. With that being the case along with the child being more inclined to pick up the behaviour of the parents it would go against a Christians beliefs to condone or support children being adopted into the home of same sex parents. I'd feel the same way regarding prospective adopting parents with any of the other disorders or criminal tendencies aforementioned.
I'd say that's the bottom line for me.

[Nbadan]

I agree with that although IMO the child raised in the home of those that practice illicit or unethical behaviour, be it racism, homosexuality, satanic worship, drug use, alcoholism or whatever it may be would in all probablilty be much more inclined to take on those behaviours than one in a home where those behaviours are not practiced.

I imagine being a racist, or satanic worshiper, or druggie, or alcoholic is a life-style choice, but nobody chooses to be gay or not. You either are or your not.

[jochhejaam]

I imagine being a racist, or satanic worshiper, or druggie, or alcoholic is a life-style choice, but nobody chooses to be gay or not. You either are or your not.
I think the study that came out in support of that theory whereby they alledgedly discovered a gay gene was deemed skewed as it was done by a gay male .(I'll try to find it later) I also have seen surveys where most gays state that they were not born gay but that it is a choice they have made, most recently Sheryl Swoopes.


In fact, the sports ministry consultant contends, Swoopes' lesbian relationship has nothing to do with what is commonly known as a "lesbian core identity," where an individual acknowledges having experienced same-sex attractions since childhood. For the WNBA star, as she herself acknowledges, homosexuality was not an inborn trait but was a conscious choice.

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2005/11/exlesbian_share.html

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I agree with that although IMO the child raised in the home of those that practice illicit or unethical behaviour, be it racism, homosexuality, satanic worship, drug use, alcoholism or whatever it may be would in all probablilty be much more inclined to take on those behaviours than one in a home where those behaviours are not practiced.



You are putting things that shouldn't be on the same list...

Racism: Social problem
Satanic worship: Bunch of heavy metal fans with too much time on their hands.
Drug Use: No problem. Drug Abuse: Social Disease.
Alcoholism: Social Disease.
Homosexuality: Sexual choice.


Speaking from a strictly Biblical viewpoint those who unrepentingly practice deviant sexual behaviour, in this case homosexuality, will receive God's judgement. With that being the case along with the child being more inclined to pick up the behaviour of the parents it would go against a Christians beliefs to condone or support children being adopted into the home of same sex parents. I'd feel the same way regarding prospective adopting parents with any of the other disorders or criminal tendencies aforementioned.
I'd say that's the bottom line for me.

That is the problem...we are talking about laws for a secular state, whatever the Religion is, nobody should care what they say about those issues.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]You are putting things that shouldn't be on the same list...
Racism: Social problem
Satanic worship: Bunch of heavy metal fans with too much time on their hands.
Drug Use: No problem. Drug Abuse: Social Disease.
Alcoholism: Social Disease.
Homosexuality: Sexual choice.
Manu I put them on the list because they are all environments that I see as detrimental for the children in that home. I do appreciate you qualifying homosexuality as a choice.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Manu I put them on the list because they are all environments that I see as detrimental for the children in that home. I do appreciate you qualifying homosexuality as a choice.

It is a choice to a certain point. The thing is...that there is not a right or wrong choice in this issue, simply different choices to be made. And as I asume you already guess, I'm not talking about "Choice God or Gay and go to hell". No, what I'm talking about is another kind of choice (whether to be accepted in some social circles if the person admits its homosexuality).

[jochhejaam]

The Myth of the Gay Gene

All the scientific evidence to date has not
conclusively proven that genes
determine homosexual orientation in human beings.



In the past year, the clergy pedophilia scandal has reignited the debate over homosexuality. 1 The Catholic Church’s millennia-old teaching is clear: Homosexual activity is immoral because it is contrary to nature. 2 Not surprisingly, however, this counter-cultural position has come under much criticism in recent decades not only within the Church but also within other ecclesial communions. 3 One popular argument that is often put forward by revisionists is that the Church’s stance should be re-evaluated in light of new scientific evidence which suggest that homosexuality is a genetically inherited condition that is a permanent state. 4 Thus, it is claimed, homosexuality should be accepted as a natural variant within a wide spectrum of gender identities and sexual orientations, a manifestation of the richness of God’s creation. 5

This essay will respond to this revisionist argument in three ways. First, it will critically examine the scientific evidence that has been used to argue for the genetic origins of homosexuality. In recent years, the scientific reports that originally proposed the existence of the so-called gay gene have been seriously questioned and discredited. Thus, today, the widely held belief that a single human gene exists that determines homosexual orientation remains a myth. Next, it will investigate the claim that homosexuality is both permanent and nonpathological by reviewing four recent studies that suggest that this may not the case. First, a study authored by Robert Spitzer, a leading figure in the 1973 American Psychiatric Association (APA) decision that removed homosexuality from the official diagnostic manual of mental disorders, has now shown that with some form of reparative therapy, a few persons whose sexual orientation had been predominantly or exclusively homosexual became predominantly or exclusively heterosexual. Thus, it appears that at least in select cases, the homosexual orientation is not as permanent a state as it has been touted to be. Second, three independent studies published in the past four years have also shown that homosexual and bisexual men and women are at greater risk of suicide and overall mental health problems than their heterosexual counterparts. These studies suggest that contrary to claims advanced by gay activists, homosexually active persons as a group appear to be less psychologically healthy than the general population. Finally, this essay will review the ethical argument that used the flawed scientific data to justify homosexual behavior. This argument is flawed, because it endorses too much. In fact, the same argument could be used to excuse many human behaviors that are immoral. Not insignificantly, one of these behaviors would include rape.

Is There a Human Gay Gene?

Revisionists often cite three scientific studies published in the early 1990s to prove that homosexuality is a genetically inherited condition. It is now clear that there were scientific problems with each of these reports that undermine the validity of their conclusions. 6

First, in August of 1991, Simon LeVay, a scientist at the Salk Institute in San Diego, reported that a group of neurons in the hypothalamic region of the brain appeared to be twice as large in heterosexual men than in homosexual men. 7 Previous studies had suggested that the hypothalamus is a region of the brain involved in the regulation of sexual behavior in non-human primates. Furthermore, other studies had shown that these neurons are larger in men then in women. Thus, LeVay concluded that sexual orientation had a biological basis.

There are three problems with LeVay’s paper. First, LeVay compared the brain structures of 19 homosexual men with the brain structures of 16 men whom he presumed were heterosexual. However, he was unable to confirm the heterosexuality of the men in his control group. Significantly, six of these 16 presumed heterosexual men had died from AIDS, a disease whose transmission is often associated with homosexual behavior! Thus, it would not be surprising if some of LeVay’s presumed heterosexual men were in fact, homosexuals, a possibility which would seriously discredit the conclusions of his study. Second, LeVay obtained his brain samples from homosexual men who had all died from AIDS. In contrast, for his control group, he obtained brain samples from men who had died not only from AIDS (6 subjects) but also from a diversity of other causes (10 subjects). As LeVay himself acknowledged, however, this raises a legitimate scientific question: Could the differences in the sizes of the neurons have been caused not by sexual orientation but by AIDS? This certainly is a possibility that was not definitively ruled out the study. Finally, LeVay concluded that the differences in neuronal size could explain homosexuality. In other words, they could be linked to a biological cause for a homosexual orientation. This, however, is an illegitimate conclusion arising from faulty logic. One alternative explanation for the differences in the sizes of the neurons in the hypothalamus is that homosexual behavior is the cause for rather than the effect of the difference in neuron size. To illustrate this, let us say that a scientist tells you that he has discovered that there is a difference in the size of the bicep muscles between weight lifters and pianists. Furthermore, he concludes that the large muscle mass is the cause for these men becoming muscle builders. What would you say? Would you not respond by pointing out that it is more likely to be the case that the large muscle mass was in fact not the cause for but the effectof muscle training? In the same way, LeVay’s study was unable to rule out the possibility that homosexual behavior was not caused by, but rather, caused the differences in neuronal cell size. In sum, in light of these significant problems, it is difficult to conclude with any certainty that homosexual orientation is caused in any way by the neurons of the hypothalamus.

Second, in December of 1991, John M. Bailey and Richard C. Pillard, reported that it was more likely for both identical twins to be homosexual than it is for both fraternal twins or for both adopted brothers. 8 They found that 52% (29 pairs out of 56) of the identical twins were both homosexual; 22% (12 pairs out of 54) of the fraternal twins were both homosexual; and 11% (6 of 57) of the adoptive brothers where both homosexual. Thus, Bailey and Pillard concluded that there is a genetic cause for homosexuality.

Again, there were significant problems with the study. First, if homosexuality is genetically determined, why did only 52% of the identical twins share the same sexual orientation? How about the other 48% of the twins who differed in their sexual orientation? How do we account for them? Second and more importantly, the study was based upon a sample of twins which was not random. As critics have pointed out, Bailey and Pillard did not rule out the possibility that they had preferentially recruited twins were both brothers were gay by advertising in homosexual newspapers and magazines rather than in periodicals intended for the general public. Indeed, it now appears that preferential recruitment did occur in the 1991 study – a more recent 2000 study by Bailey and his colleagues, using volunteers recruited, not from the gay community but from the Australian Twin Registry, revealed that only 20% and not 52% of identical twins share the same homosexual orientation. 9 This is not as significant a difference between identical and fraternal twins as earlier reported. Thus, as the authors of the 2000 paper conclude, it is very difficult to distinguish the genetic from the environmental influences on sexual orientation.

The third and most publicized study suggesting a genetic link for homosexual orientation was a paper published by Dean Hamer and his colleagues at the National Institutes of Health. The researchers studied 40 pairs of homosexual brothers and concluded that some cases of homosexuality could be linked to a specific region on the human X chromosome (Xq28) inherited from the mother to her homosexual son. 1 0 This study has come under much criticism – the Office of Research Integrity of the Department of Health and Human Services even investigated Hamer for alleged fraud in this study though it eventually cleared him 11 – and most significantly, has never been reproduced. In fact, two subsequent studies of other homosexual brothers have since concluded that there is no evidence that male sexual orientation is influenced by an X-linked gene. 12

In sum, all the scientific evidence to date has not conclusively proven that genes determine homosexual orientation in human beings. The existence of a human gay gene remains a scientific myth. Thus gay activists are incorrect when they insist that science has proven that an individual with homosexual inclinations is “born that way.”


It's a long article, here's the link if you want to read more.
http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/austriaco.htm

[Nbadan]

For the WNBA star, as she herself acknowledges, homosexuality was not an inborn trait but was a conscious choice.

Blah, no one knows this for sure. It's always toughest to examine your own motivations. Swoopes may have been gay at birth and still be in self-denial. None-the-less, I am not saying that enviromental factors may not influence some people who may be inclined to be gay. However, no one is going to turn gay from watching a gay porn or interacting with gay people, even if you are related.

[jochhejaam]

Blah, no one knows this for sure. It's always toughest to examine your own motivations. Swoopes may have been gay at birth and still be in self-denial. None-the-less, I am not saying that enviromental factors may not influence some people who may be inclined to be gay. However, no one is going to turn gay from watching a gay porn or interacting with gay people, even if you are related.
See post #96

[Nbadan]

See post #96

See my post from this weeK:


UESDAY, Feb. 21 (HealthDay News) -- New research adds a twist to the debate on the origins of sexual orientation, suggesting that the genetics of mothers of multiple gay sons act differently than those of other women.

Scientists found that almost one fourth of the mothers who had more than one gay son processed X chromosomes in their bodies in the same way. Normally, women randomly process the chromosomes in one of two ways -- half go one way, half go the other.

The research "confirms that there is a strong genetic basis for sexual orientation, and that for some gay men, genes on the X chromosome are involved," said study co-author Sven Bocklandt, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of California at Los Angeles.

The link between genetics and sexual orientation has been a hot topic for more than a decade as a few scientists have tried to find genes that might make people gay or straight. In the new study, Bocklandt and colleagues examined a phenomenon called "X-chromosome inactivation."

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060222/hl_hsn/momsgeneticsmighthelpproducegaysons)

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

In sum, all the scientific evidence to date has not conclusively proven that genes determine homosexual orientation in human beings. The existence of a human gay gene remains a scientific myth. Thus gay activists are incorrect when they insist that science has proven that an individual with homosexual inclinations is “born that way.”

I do agree on this. But there also isn't any "straight", "bisexual", "voyeurist", etc., gene. Sexual behaviour is an individual choice, influenced by enviroment to some point, but there is not a right or wrong enviroment or choice. Anyone can do as they like in their bedrooms.

[jochhejaam]

See my post from this weeK:



Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060222/hl_hsn/momsgeneticsmighthelpproducegaysons)
It starts out with "Moms genetics might"... <sigh>
Using mythology (skewed scientific studied) as attempts to accelerate the acceptance of deviant sexual behaviours are advanced by anti-Christian activists dan. They're full of holes with the mainstream scientific community and with the majority in the Christian community, those that haven't allowed secularism to permeate the tenets of their religions to the point where there's little difference between their brand of Christianity and what is diametrically opposite of their foundational tenets.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I agree with that although IMO the child raised in the home of those that practice illicit or unethical behaviour, be it racism, homosexuality, satanic worship, drug use, alcoholism or whatever it may be would in all probablilty be much more inclined to take on those behaviours than one in a home where those behaviours are not practiced.

Speaking from a strictly Biblical viewpoint those who unrepentingly practice deviant sexual behaviour, in this case homosexuality, will receive God's judgement. With that being the case along with the child being more inclined to pick up the behaviour of the parents it would go against a Christians beliefs to condone or support children being adopted into the home of same sex parents. I'd feel the same way regarding prospective adopting parents with any of the other disorders or criminal tendencies aforementioned.
I'd say that's the bottom line for me.
Seriously man, how can you even think of putting all those in the same list? I seriously don't get your way of thinking, it pisses me off! First of all, being a satanic worshiper is neither illicit nor unethical and neither is being a homosexual, so I really don't get what the hell you are talking about!

You know what, you and I are NEVER going to be able to see eye to eye on this matter. You view homosexuality as some sort of deviant, unholy choice of lifestyle. Thats fine, believe what you want, but when people who think like you start trying to oppress and impose your absurd ideals on the rest of the world, it makes me sick! and it pisses me off!

Now I know you, personally, are not trying to oppress anyone or impose your way of thinking on anyone, but what you are doing is condoning it, and that makes me sick too. Call me irational, call me hotheaded, in fact call me whatever you like, but my part in this discussion ends here, because I simply cannot stomach your views on the matter.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MaNuMaNiA]
You know what, you and I are NEVER going to be able to see eye to eye on this matter. You view homosexuality as some sort of deviant, unholy choice of lifestyle. Thats fine, believe what you want, but when people who think like you start trying to oppress and impose your absurd ideals on the rest of the world, it makes me sick! and it pisses me off!

My view? I have the backing of the Creator of the Universe so that would mean that you will never see eye to eye with God and me and I'm very content with that scenario.





Now I know you, personally, are not trying to oppress anyone or impose your way of thinking on anyone, but what you are doing is condoning it, and that makes me sick too. Call me irational, call me hotheaded, in fact call me whatever you like, but my part in this discussion ends here, because I simply cannot stomach your views on the matter.
Okay, you're hotheaded and irrational...and intolerant. :lol

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

My view? I have the backing of the Creator of the Universe so that would mean that you will never see eye to eye with God and me and I'm very content with that scenario.

YOU and God???

:rolleyes I guess he needs a new personal advisor then...that was the problem...

And again, you are trying to impose a religious point of view on a law issue...except for religious liberties, religion has nothing to do in the law.

[jochhejaam]

YOU and God???

:rolleyes I guess he needs a new personal advisor then...that was the problem...

And again, you are trying to impose a religious point of view on a law issue...except for religious liberties, religion has nothing to do in the law.
God and me means that I've joined his camp and adhere to His truths not that He's gravitated towards me. (I didn't think I'd have to clarify that)

I'm not trying to impose anything Manu I'm just explaining how and why I feel the way I do about the issue. My belief is that morality and law are not at all mutually exclusive.

[Mr. Peabody]

I also have seen surveys where most gays state that they were not born gay but that it is a choice they have made, most recently Sheryl Swoopes.



If you are so convinced that people choose to be homosexual, let me ask you -- is it within your power to choose to be homosexual, as well? In other words, can you, jochhejaam, religious views aside, decide one morning that you would prefer loving a man more than loving a woman? If what you allege is true, than you should be able to make this decision and start preferring one over the other? Are you alleging that you have this ability?

How many of you here think you have this ability? Be honest.

[xrayzebra]

If you are so convinced that people choose to be homosexual, let me ask you -- is it within your power to choose to be homosexual, as well? In other words, can you, jochhejaam, religious views aside, decide one morning that you would prefer loving a man more than loving a woman? If what you allege is true, than you should be able to make this decision and start preferring one over the other? Are you alleging that you have this ability?

How many of you here think you have this ability? Be honest.

Homosexuality is not about love, it is about a sexual lifestyle. Like
glory holes in public restrooms, the bath houses. And yes some people
men and women just want sex, they don't care who they have it with or
where. Come on you be honest. Homo's aren't the sweet loving people
you want to shown them as. And yes most choose this lifestyle because
of the reason given. SEX!

[smeagol]

I recently saw a documentary on HBO about homosexuality. It started with an interview to the parents a 10 year old boy living somewhere in the MidWest. They also interviewed the little boy and they showed him playing. He, at the early age of 10, was clearly homosexual. They showed him dancing around his room and combing dolls' hairs. And he explained how he felt “different” and that other kids made fun of him.

I’m not exaggerating one bit.

Homosexuality for this kid was not a choice.

Nevertheless, I don't know if its like this for everyone who has homosexual inclinations.

[Mr. Peabody]

Homosexuality is not about love, it is about a sexual lifestyle. Like
glory holes in public restrooms, the bath houses. And yes some people
men and women just want sex, they don't care who they have it with or
where. Come on you be honest. Homo's aren't the sweet loving people
you want to shown them as. And yes most choose this lifestyle because
of the reason given. SEX!

That's such bullshit. In other words, homosexuals are so desperate for sex that they are willing to have it with anyone and that's why they're homosexuals.

Xray, do you know any homosexuals? It doesn't sound like you do.

I have gay friends that wouldn't have sex with Angelina Jolie, if she offered it to them. Do you know why? Because they are homosexual and are only attracted to other men.

Today's Yahoo News

Mom's Genetics Could Produce Gay Sons
Ker Than
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com
Fri Feb 24, 2:04 PM ET


The arrangement of a mother's genes could affect the sexual orientation of her son, according to a new study.


The finding, detailed in the February issue of the journal Human Genetics, adds fuel to the decade-long debate about whether so-called "gay genes" might exist.


The researchers examined a phenomenon called "X chromosome inactivation" in 97 mothers of gay sons and 103 mothers whose sons were not gay.


X and Y


Chromosomes are large thread-like molecules that contain an organism's genetic instructions. Humans have 23 chromosomes. The X chromosome is one of two sex chromosomes in mammals; the other is the Y chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes and no Y's, while males have one X and one Y.


Even though women have two X chromosomes, only one is functional because the other is inactivated through a process called "methylation."


"It gets wrapped up in a ball and is not used with the exception of a few genes," explained study leader Sven Bocklandt of the University of California, Los Angeles.


If one of the females' X chromosomes is not turned off, then there is too much genetic material, which can lead to a harmful overabundance of proteins. Down syndrome, for example, results from the presence of an extra copy of chromosome 21.


Big difference


Normally, X chromosome inactivation occurs at random: half of the cells in a woman's body will have one X chromosome inactivated, while the other half inactivates the other chromosome.


However, when the researchers in the current study examined cells from those women who had at least two gay sons—42 mothers in total, or 23 percent—they found something different.


"Every single cell that we looked at in these women inactivated the same X chromosome," Bocklandt told LiveScience. "That's highly unusual."


In contrast, only 4 percent of mothers with no gay sons and 13 percent of those with just one gay son showed this type of extreme skewing.


Bocklandt thinks this suggest that a mother's X chromosomes partly influences whether her son is gay or not.


"We think that there are one or more genes on the X chromosome that have an effect on the sexual orientation of the sons of these mothers, as well as an effect on the cells we were looking at," Bocklandt said.


Other chromosomes implicated


Bocklandt was also involved in an earlier study that looked at the entire human genome of men who had two or more gay brothers. The researchers found identical stretches of DNA on three chromosomes—7, 8 and 10—that were shared by about 60 percent of the gay brothers in the study.


That study also found mothers to have an unusually large role in their son's sexual orientation: the region on chromosome 10 correlated with homosexuality only if it was inherited from the mother.

The results from these two studies suggest that there are multiple genetic factors involved in determining a person's sexual orientation and that it might vary depending on the person.

"We think that there are going to be some gay men who are X chromosome gay men and some who are chromosome 7 gay men or chromosome 10 gay men or some combination," Brocklandt said in a telephone interview.

Most researchers now think that there is no single gay gene that controls whether a person is homosexual or not. Rather, it's the influence of multiple genes, combined with environmental influences, which ultimately determine whether a person is gay.

A touchy subject

Research into the genetics of sexual orientation is controversial. Religious leaders who believe that sexual orientation is a choice argue that such research is an attempt to legitimize homosexuality; others worry that a detailed knowledge of the genetics underlying homosexuality will open the door to genetic engineering that prevents it.

But Bocklandt doesn't think these concerns should prevent scientists from asking the basic question of whether homosexuality has an underlying genetic component to it or not.

"I have no doubt that at some point we'll be able to manipulate all sorts of aspects of our personality and physical appearance," Bocklandt said. "I think if there's ever a time when we can make these changes for sexual orientation, then we will also be able to do it for intelligence or musical skills or certain physical characteristics—but whether or not these things are allowed to happen is something that society as a whole has to decide. It's not a scientific question."

Gay Men Respond Differently to Pheromones
X Chromosome Key to Differences in Men and Women
The Rules of Attraction in the Game of Love
Finger Length Predicts Aggression in Men

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I am tired of this issue.