Note to Isiah

[SequSpur]

Thank you very much.

[Rummpd]

Please just Quit and take the high road - or in your case the low road.

Just do it - Pease how bad can a GM and Executive be in multiple sites in recent years?

[yeahone]

haha

[1Parker1]

:lol A lot of teams are thanking him.

[Spurologist]

He should take the Indiana job to avoid further embarassment.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I can't believe that this guy is allowed anywhere near the decision making process for a professional basketball team.

I mean really, you could do a better job GMing by throwing darts at names on a wall when you're deciding who to trade.

[SequSpur]

Well, I appreciate that he is giving Malik the time and minutes to prove himself as a future Eastern Conference Allstar... :D

[aaronstampler]

He should take the Indiana job to avoid further embarassment.

why? So he could turn them into a division II team?

[aaronstampler]

My favorite part of the Isiah running the Knicks saga was when he first got hired, SI did a feature on him, and he was in his office with his son and the writer, and the writer asked what he learned from his experiences running the Raptors and coaching the Pacers, and he said that the main lesson he's got is the next time he gets to run a team, he won't listen to other people's opinion's anymore.

How's that goin?

[IceColdBrewski]

What ever happened to whottt? I remember that guy defending Thomas as if his life depended on it about a year ago. Wonder if his opinion has changed at all.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe his response would be "he drafts well."

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Yeah, I still remember whott insisting that Rose for Mohammed was a horrible deal for us based on the thoughts of some random internet poster on the ESPN message boards.

:lol

[Spurologist]

why? So he could turn them into a division II team?

He'll be able to recruit great players in IU just because he's Isiah. He'll certainly do better than Davis.

[Joepa]

Isaiah is not a bad coach or talent evaluator (as evidenced by his solid drafts) so I think he would be a pretty good coach. It's this whole trading thing that he sucks at, so maybe since he can't do that in the NCAA he'll be a decent fit for them.

[ata]

Isaiah is not a bad coach or talent evaluator (as evidenced by his solid drafts) so I think he would be a pretty good coach. It's this whole trading thing that he sucks at, so maybe since he can't do that in the NCAA he'll be a decent fit for them.

He was coach in Indiana and he did exactly nothing! (Not to mention, that he benched Brezec for no reason)

[Winnipeg_Spur]

He was coach in Indiana and he did exactly nothing! (Not to mention, that he benched Brezec for no reason)

Yeah, Isiah had some really talented teams in Indiana, and he led them to a first round exit every year. Once they got a decent coach they finally became a contender (which Artest quickly destroyed).

[whottt]

He is good at drafting...

Here are his Toronto drafts:
1.Damon Stoudamire
2.Marcus Camby
3. Jimmy King
4.TMac

With the Knicks:
1.Sweetney(shit this is starting to look like AHF's fantasy team)
2.Ariza
3.Channing Frye
4.Nate Robinson
5.David Lee...


Um...there is only one crappy pick in his entire draft history and that's King.

Now someone needs to show that he sucks at drafting...

As far as the Knicks...the Knicks were a mess that hadn't made the playoffs in 4 years when he got there...they made the playoffs his first year as GM.


Last year they missed it...and this year they probably will too...

But everyone seems to piss and moan about the Knicks payroll as evidence he is an idiot...well...the Knicks don't want a small payroll...having big contracts allows them to pull off big trades...

Like oh say...adding Eddie Curry, Jalen Rose, and Steve Francis all in the same year.




As for the Nazr/Malik trade...


Nazr is averaging what...5 points and 5 boards a game?

Well...ONE of the #1 picks we gave up for Nazr, David Lee...is averaging 4 points and 4 boards per game....and he's doing it for a hell of a lot cheaper than Nazr....


And oh yeah...he just managed to hire the coach of the defending conference champs away this past offseason...

He's aquired huge loads of talent...he's been flawless in the draft...and he hired arguably one of the best coaches in history away from a conference champion.


Now exactly what more do you want him to do?

Suck ass and luck into getting Tim Duncan and David Robinson a the same time?

[ChumpDumper]

Now exactly what more do you want him to do?

Suck ass and luck into getting Tim Duncan and David Robinson a the same time?He's got the first part down cold, only he gave away his lottery pick to Chicago.

[whottt]

He's got the first part down cold, only he gave away his lottery pick to Chicago.

He's still got Toronto's lottery pick...and our #1...and probably Eddie Curry...and David Lee, and Malik.

Meanwhile...Nazr will be in Chicago, along with his lottery pick, and we'll have?

Go read what he said last year...he wasn't trying to cut payroll, he wanted draft pick...the Knicks have the highest ticket prices in the league and NY is not a rebuilding kind of town...

He's getting a lot of blame for Layden's mess, ...there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever the guy has an eye for talent....Tim Duncans and David Robinsons don't grown on trees.

[ChumpDumper]

and we'll have?Another trophy?

You've convinced me.

Knicks > Bulls > Spurs.

My only hope is that someone buys knicktalk.com off of me in three years for a hefty profit.

[whottt]

Another trophy?
Selectively stupid as ever I see....

I am sure Isiah hates himself for trading away the Knicks' trophy, I mean Nazr.

IF only the dumbass had Tim Duncan like a smart GM does...

[ChumpDumper]

Just explain 15-41 to me in non-rebuilding terms.

Because to me .476 > .402 > .268

[Bruno]

He's still got Toronto's lottery pick


No, it's Denver's pick. The 18th and 28th pick in a weak draft, great :lol
Thomas is good at drafting but he is a bad GM.
And Nazr is way better than Lee, you can't compare stats between an undersized PF (easy to find : Singleton and Hayes wasn't drafted and Evans was a secound round draft pick) in a 15-41 team and a center in a 44-12 team.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

And oh yeah...he just managed to hire the coach of the defending conference champs away this past offseason...


That wasn't GM genius. That was called being able to throw a huge pile of NY cash at an egomaniac.

BTW, that egomaniac lost by 30 last night. :lol

[Peter]

It's not like with the Knicks he's had that much to work with. The key is going to be what he does with Francis and Marbury. He did the Orlando deal to get better talent. Now he has something to offer a team to entice them into a S&T for a star free agent.

[nkdlunch]

He's aquired huge loads of talent...he's been flawless in the draft...and he hired arguably one of the best coaches in history away from a conference champion.


and he's made the knicks the laughingstock of the NBA. the whole team should be sent to the NBDL for a couple of seasons. they suck

good job Isaiah

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

The problem I have with Isiah is that I think he might be schizo or bi-polar or something. As whott pointed out he does draft well, but then he turns around and throws money at a chimp like Jerome James. And with drafting being one of his strong suits, he's dealt away most of their picks in the near future. For every good move he pulls he does two that leave you scratching your head.

[my2sons]

I am just wondering what draft order he got those picks, and the only real standout so far is fry. you only get good players by having consistently bad teams. The draft order has not stopped the revolving door player policy. 50 trades a year will not stablize a franchise much less allow a team to incorporate all these wonderful draft picks you seem to be gushing over. Lets see, should I bench 10 million or 15 million to develop that much lower priced bargain basement priced lower than our center rook. ya, i can see why you root so heavily for isaiah as the next executive of the year. however, i think they could use a few more 20 million dollar one two combo guards.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'll take up whottt's side of this argument for kicks.

I think the jury's out for the time being on Isiah's moves with New York. That's mostly because Isiah has to attempt rebuilding without the usual means of accomplishing that. Normally, a rebuilding team that is capped out will try to deal off bad contracts and acquire expiring contracts in the hope that some cap space in the future will allow the pursuit of quality free agents. Isiah couldn't do that in New York, largely because even with expiring deals the Knicks would be over the cap for the next 4-5 years. The Knicks aren't well-served by allowing deals like Penny's to expire, because they'd lose the value of the contract for nothing. Isiah had a choice: he could either use his expiring contracts to take on other people's longer term problems or he could simply let deals like Penny's expire and then wait out the string of contracts to get back to square one. He appears to have taken a relatively proactive approach.

Rather than seek out cap relief, Isiah has gone in the opposite direction. Isiah's "plan" seems to be one of acquiring "assets," players he thinks have league-wide value or appeal and draft picks. He can use those assets, in some combination, to make deals to acquire either players who are under contract elsewhere (Kevin Garnett) or players who are free agents (via sign-and-trades). Assuming that his ultimate goal is Garnett this off-season, or Lebron James somewhere down the road (or even both), Isiah has to have commodities that he can deal to acquire those players. To get Garnett, he needs substantial salaries and guys that might be somewhat attractive to the T'Wolves. He now has two high-priced (if underperforming) guards, some wings with big contracts, and some draft picks. He can match Garnett's salary and at least appear to give some quality back to Minnesota, which is going to have to happen if the Timberwolves are to retain any credibility in Minneapolis after dealing Garnett. He can make a similar play for Lebron if King James decides that he wants out of Cleveland.

All of that assumes, of course, that teams would actually be willing to take any of the guys he's acquired, and I think that may be where his plan ultimately falls apart. But if he's able to deal to get either KG or Lebron, he'll be lauded as having done it smartly. If he gets them both, he'll be a genius. If he gets neither, his critics will have been right all along.

[whottt]

Just explain 15-41 to me in non-rebuilding terms.

Because to me .476 > .402 > .268


Get Larry Brown to explain it to you...

[whottt]

and he's made the knicks the laughingstock of the NBA. the whole team should be sent to the NBDL for a couple of seasons. they suck

good job Isaiah


IF you weren't a bandwaggoner you'd know the Knicks were a laughing stock when Isiah got there...at worst you can accuse him of not improving the situation...but he made the playoffs his first year and at least now they are a talented laughingstock with a great coach.

[whottt]

I'll take up whottt's side of this argument for kicks.

.



You basically got the gist of it...

Look the guy will probably will get fired...because NY doesn't like being a joke...if they don't start winning he's gonna get fired.

But there is no denying he's got a good eye for talent and he's made moves that allow the Knicks to land a big star(s).

The problem I have is with everyone acting like he is a dumbass because of the Knicks payroll...it was never his or the Knicks concern as evidenced by the fact that they didn't even use the amnesty rule on Houston's contract(and no, they didn't know he was going to retire when they made that move). They wanted that contract.

[whottt]

And Nazr is way better than Lee,


Yet the Knicks sucked when Nazr was there...as did the Hawks...Nazr was traded by Larry Brown in the first place.


you can't compare stats between an undersized PF (easy to find : Singleton and Hayes wasn't drafted and Evans was a secound round draft pick) in a 15-41 team and a center in a 44-12 team.

Well what is it that you want to compare? You want me to go dig up all the, "Nazr sucks" threads that were all over this board prior to last week?


He turned Sweetney into Curry and Ariza into Steve Francis...



Look at the team now...

Marbury
Curry
Jalen Rose
Steve Francis
Crawford
Frye

etc...

Anyone that thinks the Knicks don't have talent coming out the wazzo doesn't know what talent is...it hasn't translated to wins...but you can start to lay that at the feet of Larry Brown as well...


Remember....when he got Marbury, Marbury had just given us fits in the playoffs the previous season when we won a title...a hell of a lot tougher time than the Suns gave us last year...It paid off in the playoffs...now they got chemistry issues...it's Browns job to fix that.

[SenorSpur]

The team was atrocious before he arrived and somehow he's made it unfathomably worse with his decisions. His moves make no sense to no one. There's no question he should be fired.

[whottt]

He really hasn't made it unfathomably worse...they are stocked with draft picks, stars, a great coach, and talent.

The only thing absent is the winning...

What moves didn't make sense?

Getting Marbury? Marbury nearly singlehandedly destroyed us(the eventual champions) in the playoffs the year before. And he got the Knicks to the playoffs his first year. Is it really that hard to see why a dominant scoring PG would go after a similar type player once he becomes a GM?

Getting Crawford and now Franchise?

Well...the guy won 2 titles on a team built around two dominant scoring guards, tough hardnosed defense and rebounding...

Is it really that hard to see why he got Malik(not to mention 2 #1 picks)...Nazr damn sure isn't hard nosed or tough, and it's not like the Knicks didn't suck when they had Nazr....and he is it really a mystery looking at that model why he went after Crawford...Franchise...Larry Brown?

To me his plan is pretty obvious...he doesn't have payroll contraints or the small market woes of SA and infact large contracts serve his purposes better...

For the final time...he's not worried about payroll...and never has been, and neither are his owners particularly worried about it...the lack of wins is the thing.


Does anyone think the Knicks record is due to a lack of talent?

It's not...

[JamStone]

whott, a few things ...

1. Jimmy King was a second round draft pick. He wasn't a crappy draft pick. The only players drafted after him that even stayed longer than a few years in the league were Eric Snow, Fred Hoiberg, and Don Reid. Second round picks are often gamble picks. It was not a bad draft pick.

2. Isiah Thomas did not draft Michael Sweetney. That was the 2003 draft, and Sweetney was drafted by Scott Layden.


Isiah also heavily influenced the drafting of Jamaal Tinsley, as one of the last picks in the first round. He also essentially drafted Fred Jones, a player who a lot of people felt was a stretch for #14 in the 2002 NBA draft, but as it turns out, he's been one of the better players from that draft, perhaps only surpassed by Tayshaun Prince and Nenad Krstic as players who were taken later that should have gone much higher. And, also Isiah drafted James Jones in the second round. Much like Ariza, James Jones has proven to be a player in this league, even if it's only a role player. To get good value in the second round is pretty commendable.

[nkdlunch]

IF you weren't a bandwaggoner you'd know the Knicks were a laughing stock when Isiah got there...at worst you can accuse him of not improving the situation...but he made the playoffs his first year and at least now they are a talented laughingstock with a great coach.

they are the laughingstock now for these reasons,
- now they have "superstar players" and still suck
- they make many big trades and big signins all year long and still suck
- they got larry brown and still suck
- this season they not only suck, but they're the worst team in the nba

before, that was not the case. get off Isaiah's nuts. he singlehandedly buried the knicks deeper than ever before.

[JamStone]

Charlie Ward > Howard Eisley > Frank Williams
Allan Houston > Shandon Anderson
Keith Van Horn > Clarence Weatherspoon
Kurt Thomas > Antonio McDyess > Michael Sweetney
Dikembe Mutombo > Michael Doleac > Othella Harrington > Maciej Lampe


At the end of 2003 / beginning of 2003, this is the New York Knicks roster when Isiah Thomas took over. All three point guards are out of the NBA now. Howard Eisley had a couple 10 contracts, I think earlier in the season. Allan Houston has retired. Clarence Weatherspoon is out of the NBA. Michael Doleac and Shandon Anderson are 12th men or injured reserve players for the Miami Heat.

Isiah Thomas has financially burdened the Knicks more horribly than when he came on. But, talent wise and youth wise, he has improved the roster. He decided to take a very strange route by acquiring large contracts just to upgrade talent without considering chemistry and role playing issues.

But, the current roster has no players that were on the roster when Isiah Thomas got the gig. And, it has only been about two years since that has happened, the beginning of 2004. He completely overhauled the roster by taking on salaries and giving away draft picks. Now, it might not have been a good idea. But, the Knicks were already in the tank in 2003-04. Isiah technically could have done nothing else but to sit on contracts and let them expire and have Frank Williams and Shandon Anderson as a starting backcourt while letting players like Trevor Ariza and Mike Sweetney try to develop into players. If that were to happen, the record would probably still be similar.

At least now, there is talent to work with. There are still chemistry problems, and financially the Knicks are more than a mess. But, there are pieces to work with. Eddy Curry as lazy as he is can be a pretty good center on offense. As much of a ballhog and egomaniacal as both Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis are, not to mention perenniel losers, they have talent. Channing Frye, Nate Robinson, and David Lee are good young players who may be able to contribute or can be used as trading chips.

The Knicks are bad. They are a joke. But, I don't think they would have been better had Isiah not done the things he's done. I think they would be just as bad if not worse.

[SenorSpur]

He really hasn't made it unfathomably worse...they are stocked with draft picks, stars, a great coach, and talent.

The only thing absent is the winning...

What moves didn't make sense?

Getting Marbury? Marbury nearly singlehandedly destroyed us(the eventual champions) in the playoffs the year before. And he got the Knicks to the playoffs his first year. Is it really that hard to see why a dominant scoring PG would go after a similar type player once he becomes a GM?

Getting Crawford and now Franchise?

Well...the guy won 2 titles on a team built around two dominant scoring guards, tough hardnosed defense and rebounding...

Is it really that hard to see why he got Malik(not to mention 2 #1 picks)...Nazr damn sure isn't hard nosed or tough, and it's not like the Knicks didn't suck when they had Nazr....and he is it really a mystery looking at that model why he went after Crawford...Franchise...Larry Brown?

To me his plan is pretty obvious...he doesn't have payroll contraints or the small market woes of SA and infact large contracts serve his purposes better...

For the final time...he's not worried about payroll...and never has been, and neither are his owners particularly worried about it...the lack of wins is the thing.

Does anyone think the Knicks record is due to a lack of talent?

It's not...

A logjam of players that play the same position? Various starting rotations from game to game? Players that don't know their roles? A $125 million payroll? Are you kidding?

Any sports franchise that has the highest payroll and is unquestionably THE worse team in the league (and perhaps in all of sports) probably does not have the right mix of players to be successful. Forget coaching.

Stcokpiling high-priced talent is one thing, developing team chemistry is quite another. (See the '03 Mavs and '05 Heat). The Spurs have not won championships simply because they had the "best" talent in the league.

The only thing that's obvious about Isiah's plan is he's an idiot GM. If you don't think the Knicks are worse shape since Isiah's arrival, take a look at the moves that have backfired under his regime.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/60404.htm

February 28, 2006 -- It has been a horrifying eight months for Isiah Thomas. Five moves have backfired and left him with a roster that carries the NBA's highest payroll at $125 million. All that for a 15-41 record. With the cast of misfits having given up on new coach Larry Brown, the Knicks could supplant Charlotte with the league's worst record:
JUNE 28

On draft night, Kurt Thomas is traded for Quentin Richardson and Phoenix' first-round pick (Nate Robinson). Despite a chronic disc problem, the Knicks take on the final five years and $40.3 million of Richardson's pact. Overall, the Knicks add $20.6M in payroll. Richardson lost his shooting touch and Robinson lost respect from Brown when he threw the ball up off the backboard in a foiled attempt at a circus-like dunk.

JULY 15

Isiah agrees to terms with Jerome James on a five-year, $30 million contract. The Knicks gave up their entire $5M mid-level exception to sign the Seattle center who averaged 15 minutes per game. The 300-pounder will be owed $6.6M in his final year -2009-2010 - when he'll likely be well out of the league. James reported to camp way out of shape, and it's been a season filled with hamstrings and hangovers for him.

OCT. 4

Michael Sweetney, Tim Thomas, their 2006 first-round pick and a conditional 2007 first-rounder are traded to Chicago for Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis. Curry signs a six-year, $60 million deal as the Knicks take on another $54 million in payroll. Their attempt to save money by buying out Davis is thwarted. Curry has shown an inability to get in shape. The worst part is the Bulls might get the first overall pick in the draft, courtesy of Isiah forgetting to protect the selection.



FEB. 3

The Knicks trade Antonio Davis to the Raptors for Jalen Rose and a late first-round pick. Rose has one more year left on his contract at $17 million. Hence, with luxury tax included, the Knicks added $34 million in expense for a marginal upgrade. The Knicks are 1-11 since the trade.

FEB. 22

The Knicks trade Penny Hardaway's contract and Trevor Ariza for Steve Francis. Francis makes $13.7 million this season and has three years and $49.7M left on his contract. With Hardaway's contract expiring, the Knicks took on almost another $50M. Francis does the same exact things as Stephon Marbury, so his value to the team is vague. Plus, he's a big-time prima-donna who already skipped out on the team once during this road trip to get some more clothes at his home in Orlando.

[Peter]

The Knicks have been the laughingstock since they've ended up with stars who couldn't play due to injury (ie Houston, Hardaway) as well as some lesser players who couldn't (Jerome Williams). Since they're in rebuild mode, getting stars who can play is a first step. Making better draft decisions is another. Thomas inherited a plethora of Layden's draft mistakes. He's done better so far than Layden. The salaries the Knicks take on don't matter as much since the team can handle a large payroll + luxury tax. He's made some recent moves which have netted the team extra picks (the ADavis and Malik trades).

Say James really wants to play in NY. Granted, he won't have the leverage of being able to sign with NY outright (maybe he could use another team for that purpose), but if he isn't going to be happy in Cleveland maybe the Cavs will grant him his wish. Then at least the Knicks would have some players to offer the Cavs in return.

Right now the Knicks are going younger. Some pan the Rose trade, but from the Knicks' perspective, this summer they would probably have to give Mohammed a big deal. That would mean they'd end up with an average center with most of his contract being paid out when he's in his 30s and his best seasons are behind him. Rose's deal is a shorter, less expensive commitment. Plus the Knicks got two 1st round picks out of the deal. The Davis deal follows this logic.

As long as the Knicks continue to draft better than before plus are able to get pieces that fit using their stars who can play, the team's prospects should improve.

So, in short, the jury's still out on Thomas' tenure in NY. Layden's really the one to blame for the mess, since his drafting absolutely sucked.

[JamStone]

As for JEROME JAMES ...

Isiah wanted a center with legitimate size. That's why he traded away Nazr Mohammed, because he just wasn't a real center with the actual size to bang with the really big centers. And, Isiah did not know he would be able to get Eddy Curry. Had Isiah felt acquiring Curry was a done-deal, I don't think he would have thrown that ridiculous amount of money at Jerome James.

[Peter]

The Francis trade was about getting a star who could play plus adding a tradeable asset.

[ChumpDumper]

Get Larry Brown to explain it to you...He wasn't there last season.

If Zeke signed one free agent or traded for one player that actually fit Larry's system and coaching philosophy, I might agree with you. And if you can tell me how a team with four guards who have to dominate the ball will work anywhere, send Zeke your resume.

[whottt]

I get sick of every dumbass journalist that cites the Knicks payroll as evidence of incompetence...

For the last fuckign time...they don't care about payroll...they would carry a 200 million payroll if that is what it took to win. It's freaking NY...you don't cut payroll and rebuild in NY.

You want to hear some pissed off fans? Then go to the Garden when they have a 20 million dollar payroll and still have the leagues highest avg ticket price.

You know why he signed Jerome James to a big contract? Because he can.
You know why he traded for Curry and then signed him to that contract? Becuase he can.

You want to know why he has a 125 million payroll? Because he fucking can.

Is it sickeningly excessive? Yes...but that's the NY market for you, and NY takes a perverse pride in that sort of thing...particularly during down years.

You do not rebuild in NY like you do anywhere else...NY is not San Antonio...it's not even LA. It's New York...see, Yankees.

Jamstone...my bad on Sweetney...and compared to his other picks...King sucked.

[whottt]

He wasn't there last season.

If Zeke signed one free agent or traded for one player that actually fit Larry's system and coaching philosophy, I might agree with you. And if you can tell me how a team with four guards who have to dominate the ball will work anywhere, send Zeke your resume.


He doesn't want 4 guards that have to dominant the ball...

He wants 2 guards that have to dominate the ball...along with KG or LBJ...or both...and he's got the contracts to do it...He also wants rebounding and defense...well LB is supposed to take care of the D...and rebounding isn't that easy to come by.

He's also a players GM...which doesn't hurt when guys likes LBJ or KG are making trade demands...


For the record...I think his days in NY are numbered...but that's because of a lack of wins...not because of their payroll or some kind of failure to trim it, that was never the plan, it will never be the plan in NY, at least not publicly, and anyone who cites that as proof of incompetence needs their head removed from their ass.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

The Francis trade was about getting a star who could play plus adding a tradeable asset.

Just because Isiah was willing to trade for him doesn't mean that any other GM would be dumb enough to. The only reason Orlando took him is because TMac was going to phone in the rest of the season if they hadn't traded him. Living in Houston I can tell you that next to one was crying when they shipped his ass out of here. And something tells me that Orlando isn't going to lose any sleep on pulling the trigger on this deal.

He's pulling down max money through '09, which means it's going to be a long time before he looks attractive as an expiring contract, and if he stays to form he'll wind up in Larry's dog house in matter of months. One of his main bitching points in Houston was the slow down pace of Jeff Van Gundy's offense, and Larry Brown's system ain't all that different. There are players who benefit from change of scenery but Francis isn't one of them. He hasn't been happy in the last two places he's landed, and I will be shocked if he so much as cracks a smile while he's in New York. But I would be even more surprised if there is any GM out there (aside from Zeke) who would jump for that kind cry baby with that kind of contract. He's tradeable in the sense that you might be able to talk someone into taking him to balance out a big deal with his contract, but no one in there right mind is going to pick up a phone specifically looking to get him, and we'll see just how much he plays after he pisses Brown off.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

You know why he signed Jerome James to a big contract? Because he can.

No matter how big the market size, you still only get one MLE and he wasted the whole thing on fucking Jerome James :drunk

[whottt]

No matter how big the market size, you still only get one MLE and he wasted the whole thing on fucking Jerome James :drunk


Yet still added Steve Francis, Jalen Rose and Eddie Curry...

Figure it out.

[Peter]

Just because Isiah was willing to trade for him doesn't mean that any other GM would be dumb enough to. The only reason Orlando took him is because TMac was going to phone in the rest of the season if they hadn't traded him. Living in Houston I can tell you that next to one was crying when they shipped his ass out of here. And something tells me that Orlando isn't going to lose any sleep on pulling the trigger on this deal.

He's pulling down max money through '09, which means it's going to be a long time before he looks attractive as an expiring contract, and if he stays to form he'll wind up in Larry's dog house in matter of months. One of his main bitching points in Houston was the slow down pace of Jeff Van Gundy's offense, and Larry Brown's system ain't all that different. There are players who benefit from change of scenery but Francis isn't one of them. He hasn't been happy in the last two places he's landed, and I will be shocked if he so much as cracks a smile while he's in New York. But I would be even more surprised if there is any GM out there (aside from Zeke) who would jump for that kind cry baby with that kind of contract.


At least you end up with a guy who can ball and who has a name. A team like the Knicks doesn't have to worry as much about their lottery years since they can still make $ regardless. What matters is when your team is in Minnesota or Cleveland and is trying to survive.

[Bruno]

Yet the Knicks sucked when Nazr was there...as did the Hawks...Nazr was traded by Larry Brown in the first place.
Well what is it that you want to compare? You want me to go dig up all the, "Nazr sucks" threads that were all over this board prior to last week?


Sure, it's because of Nazr that Hawks and knicks sucked.
I didn't say he is a great player but that he is better than Lee and he was 23 when Brown traded him.



He turned Sweetney into Curry and Ariza into Steve Francis...


He don't turn Sweetney into Curry.
The deal was mainly Curry for Sweetney + an unprotected first + rights to swap picks in 07.
Trading an unprotected first (and the swap in 07 can be very painfull for knicks too) for a player like Curry is a bad move when you are in a rebuiding mode that is to say when you have chances to get a top3 pick.
Curry is young and very talented but he has a bad work ethic, he can't stay in shape, he is a poor rebounder, he has an heart condition and he is a poor defender.
The Francis trade is greta talent wise for NY but it makes no sense to have Marbury, Francis, Crawford and Nate Robinson on a same team. It's 4 guards who main quality is scoring, ther are only one ball in BB.




Anyone that thinks the Knicks don't have talent coming out the wazzo doesn't know what talent is...it hasn't translated to wins...but you can start to lay that at the feet of Larry Brown as well...


I've never said Knicks aren't talented.
Knicks roster isn't balanced and it's not Larry Brown fault.
Knicks best swing defender is Quentin Richardson !
Knicks best paint defender is Malik Rose !
Brown can't do miracles.



Remember....when he got Marbury, Marbury had just given us fits in the playoffs the previous season when we won a title...a hell of a lot tougher time than the Suns gave us last year...It paid off in the playoffs...now they got chemistry issues...it's Browns job to fix that.

Marbury was so good that Suns traded him. Marbury is though but he is a ballhog and he isn't a leader. Chemistry issues come from the roster Thomas has built, it's not related with Brown.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if his goal is to pick up only one player that plays the way Larry wants, Zeke needs to fire Brown, pay his entire contract himself and take up the coaching duties.

[FromWayDowntown]

At least you end up with a guy who can ball and who has a name. A team like the Knicks doesn't have to worry as much about their lottery years since they can still make $ regardless. What matters is when your team is in Minnesota or Cleveland and is trying to survive.

Exactly. If the Rockets could, essentially, force the Magic to take Francis in exchange for McGrady, I would think the same logic would support Isiah's decision to acquire Francis to use him for exactly the same purpose in seeking to acquire Garnett or Lebron. If Garnett goes McGrady and demands a trade, Minnesota is going to take what it can get, ala Orlando in dealing McGrady. Enter Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury or Jamal Crawford or Jalen Rose or Quentin Richardson or Jerome James or Malik Rose or any other big contract that Isiah has at his disposal. Same goes with Lebron.

The point is this: Isiah was NEVER going to have capspace to rebuild his team. He needs big contracts to match salaries in making any deal for a big-time player down the road. His sole hope to get there is manipulate his roster to make it over -- to have draft picks that he can use (and as whottt has shown, Isiah does that wisely) and to have contracts attached to players who can be dealt to acquire the big pieces the Knicks need. I don't think Isiah acquired Francis with the idea that Francis and Marbury would be the Knicks backcourt of the future or anything like that. One or the other (at least) will be shipped out this summer for someone else. If that someone else happens to be KG, Isiah will have done pretty damned well.

[ChumpDumper]

Let's dispel one myth - the Knicks are not currently profitable. According to Forbes, they are slated to lose $50 million this season alone.

[Peter]

The Knicks are a work in progress. The key is what the team looks like two years from now. Expecting a GM to do miracles overnight is a bit much. Plus, they're in NYC. If a team isn't winning a championship then the fan base wants action. There's a certain pressure there that isn't as virulent elsewhere.

As we all know, drafting well can go a long way to turning a NBA team into a winner. I'm inclined to wait and see on Thomas' tenure in NY before rendering a virtual judgement.

[SenorSpur]

Those dumbass journalists (as you called it) are the not the only ones that question the moves that Isiah's made. I doubt you would find one GM in the league that truly understands what he's doing with that franchise.

There's only one reason to make moves - to make your team appreciably better. No one can justify adding another ballhog (Francis) and a lazy, seven-foot center (James), all at high price tags, are steps in making your team better.

Call it what you want - rebuilding or reloading - the Knicks have been doing it for 33 years. I feel sorry for the fans because they are some of the best around. But for all I care they can stay in the cellar.

[nkdlunch]

His latest bonehead move is to acquire the most overhyped, and one of the most overpayed player in the NBA, Stevie Franchise.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Yet still added Steve Francis, Jalen Rose and Eddie Curry...

Figure it out.

Yeah, they added three amazingly overpaid cancers who don't play any defense at all. In fact I don't know if there's a single above average defender on the whole roster (ok, maybe Malik), so I don't think it's fair to blame Brown for their lack of D.
I really doubt Thomas is going to be able to trade any of this junk for LBJ or KG (let alone both). If either of those players leave, their teams will be looking to start over again, not build around Steve Francis or Eddy Curry.

[FromWayDowntown]

Those dumbass journalists (as you called it) are the not the only ones that question the moves that Isiah's made. I doubt you would find one GM in the league that truly understands what he's doing with that franchise.

I doubt that. I suspect they all know. They may wonder if it will work, but I think they're aware of what Isiah is attempting to accomplish.


There's only one reason to make moves - to make your team appreciably better. No one can justify adding another ballhog (Francis) and a lazy, seven-foot center (James), all at high price tags, are steps in making your team better.

Again, you're looking at this as a short-term proposition. Isiah isn't. Isiah hasn't made many of these moves with the hope of making his team better in the short term. If he still has his own #1 in 2006 (I don't honestly remember) he may be tanking the season in the hope of securing the best 2006 pick he can. But moves like the Francis move aren't intended (without more) to make the Knicks competitive. They're intended to give the Knicks a better chance to become competitive down the road.

[ChumpDumper]

If he still has his own #1 in 2006 (I don't honestly remember) he may be tanking the season in the hope of securing the best 2006 pick he can.Nope, he has Denver's and ours.

I guess he's tanking to get Chicago the best pick they can.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

At least you end up with a guy who can ball and who has a name. A team like the Knicks doesn't have to worry as much about their lottery years since they can still make $ regardless. What matters is when your team is in Minnesota or Cleveland and is trying to survive.

The point I'm trying to make is that with each passing season his "name" is worth less and less as it becomes more and more synonimous with bitching and lack of wins. So those teams like the Wolves and Cavs and other smaller clubs aren't going to try to pick him up for name recognition or the hopes that he's going to put fans in the stands. His value as a "tradeable asset" has slipped with every time he's traded and I think it will probably slip a little bit more if and when the Knicks can find a taker for him.

While it may be true that economically picking up Francis isn't going to kill the Knicks, it's still a far cry from good business sense to pick up a guy with that kind of contract who for two straight seasons has pouted his way through the year enough to the point where two different teams were glad to see him go. And it's going to make even less sense if and when he gets handed another indefinite suspension for conduct detrimental to his team.

There's just no up side to this trade.

[FromWayDowntown]

I guess he's tanking to get Chicago the best pick they can.

I appreciate knowing that. I don't think tanking is a crucial part of Isiah's strategy for the Knicks, though it would have given a further short-term explanation for those decisions.

If he manages to get Garnett or someone of that caliber for the players acquired in giving up that pick and in other transactions, I guess he'll prove himself to be pretty smart.

[BigVee]

After 2004 Olympics, doubtful LBJ would ever play for Brown....KG too old to be the answer, and yes the Knicks are loaded with talent. If I were on the outside courts in Laguna Beach, I would want them all on my team. But NBA-win a championship- talent? Not in that group.

[ChumpDumper]

Does Garnett have no-trade clause? I'm not saying he wouldn't waive it - I just want to know if he has the power to determine where he goes.

[Peter]

I appreciate knowing that. I don't think tanking is a crucial part of Isiah's strategy for the Knicks, though it would have given a further short-term explanation for those decisions.

If he manages to get Garnett or someone of that caliber for the players acquired in giving up that pick and in other transactions, I guess he'll prove himself to be pretty smart.

The thing with the picks is that nowadays having the top picks doesn't matter as much (the Spurs are a prime example). This is not to say that giving up an unconditional picks with no reason to expect a dramatic turnaround is a smart move. But the Knicks aren't doomed by it as they would've been say 10 to 15 years ago.

[ChumpDumper]

AS for LBJ, I can't think of any franchise level, sure-fire max player that didn't sign an extension before he even became a restricted FA outside of Elton Brand, and we all know the reason for that.

[whottt]

Sure, it's because of Nazr that Hawks and knicks sucked.
I didn't say he is a great player but that he is better than Lee and he was 23 when Brown traded him.

And he couldn't even dent Brown's rotation, while Lee has...Lee is a good solid player and I gurantee you if the Spurs could get him for Nazr after this season they would do it in a heartbeat.





He don't turn Sweetney into Curry.
The deal was mainly Curry for Sweetney + an unprotected first + rights to swap picks in 07.
Trading an unprotected first (and the swap in 07 can be very painfull for knicks too)

Well most teams in the NBA would give up a lottery pick for Curry...lazy or not. He's still. one of the most talented bigmen in the league and he has proven NBA talent...I don't think the Knicks anticipated being this bad this year, and they definitely don't anticipate it for next year...but I don't see anyone who is going to solve their problems as the #1 pick this year...another F?




Curry is young and very talented but he has a bad work ethic, he can't stay in shape, he is a poor rebounder, he has an heart condition and he is a poor defender.

Excepting the heart condition you just described 99% of the C's in the NBA...including Shaq...who would you have prefered he get? Tim Duncan? Empty space?




The Francis trade is greta talent wise for NY but it makes no sense to have Marbury, Francis, Crawford and Nate Robinson on a same team. It's 4 guards who main quality is scoring, ther are only one ball in BB.

And I don't imagine he is planning on keeping all those guards...but then again, at my worst, I have the memory capacity of at least a retarded horse, unlike yourself, and can easily recall Isiah's penchant for frequent trades.









Marbury was so good that Suns traded him. Marbury is though but he is a ballhog and he isn't a leader.

I wonder why Isiah probably has a sensitive spot to that type of criticism...

Do you even remember who he gave up to get Marbury?


Chemistry issues come from the roster Thomas has built, it's not related with Brown.
Chemistry issues were there to begin with.

[Peter]

AS for LBJ, I can't think of any franchise level, sure-fire max player that didn't sign an extension before he even became a restricted FA outside of Elton Brand, and we all know the reason for that.


Sure, but there is an incentive for LBJ to end up in NY. I'm sure Nike would be happy to cover whatever insurance was needed to forego the extension.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure, but there is an incentive for LBJ to end up in NY. I'm sure Nike would be happy to cover whatever insurance was needed to forego the extension.Yeah, we heard the same thing about Yao when he was going to the Lakers.

[Peter]

LBJ in NY is more important than Yao in LA for Nike.

[ChumpDumper]

It's Reebok, cupcake. We'll find out soon enough.

[Peter]

Like I said.

[whottt]

Let's dispel one myth - the Knicks are not currently profitable. According to Forbes, they are slated to lose $50 million this season alone.


Let's dispel anther myth...that of Chump having a brain...the Knicks are the most valuable NBA franchise. Figure it out.

[whottt]

I don't see Ferry letting go of LBJ whether LBJ wants it or not...but I have a hunch LBJ would love to go play for Isiah.


There have long been rumors of Garnett willing to play for the Knicks(and Chicago) if he ever left Minny.

The Knicks could give up Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor for Garnett and put the TWolves payroll at 25 million following next season...

[pache100]

I just can't get over how overwhelmed Larry Brown looks these days. He looks like he just doesn't know what to do next. I have never seen him like this.

[ChumpDumper]

Let's dispel anther myth...that of Chump having a brain...the Knicks are the most valuable NBA franchise. Figure it out.TAke it up with Forbes you idiot -- they are losing money equal to 10% of their total value this season alone.

Tell me how that is good.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't see Ferry letting go of LBJ whether LBJ wants it or not...but I have a hunch LBJ would love to go play for Isiah.


There have long been rumors of Garnett willing to play for the Knicks(and Chicago) if he ever left Minny.

The Knicks could give up Jalen Rose and Mo Taylor for Garnett and put the TWolves payroll at 25 million following next season...That's why I asked about the no-trade clause -- Chicago can put together a much more attractive trade package with their young players -- and perhaps the Knicks overall #1.

[whottt]

TAke it up with Forbes you idiot -- they are losing money equal to 10% of their total value this season alone.

Tell me how that is good.

The value of the franchise has increased by about 75 million per season since Isiah took over as GM...

As opposed to a combined total of 6 million in the 4 years preceeding his hiring...


IOW...it's fucking NY...you don't have to win to make money...but the one thing you can never do is get cheap or fail to make headlines.

Imagine how much they'd be losing if they hadn't hired Larry Brown.

And BTW...I'd take all sports franchise income with a grain of salt if I were you...particularly that of those located in big markets.

The Knicks are still 8th in attendance...

[Peter]

Well, it's not a good thing to lose money, but whottt's point about the valuation going up is pertinent. The point is that NY is a market in which a team can suck and endure a minimal financial impact, if not make out. Running a loss and seeing an increase in the valuation fits the bill. It's not, say a Utah, Minnesota or New Orleans where operating losses matter more.

[ChumpDumper]

I'd take all sports franchise income with a grain of salt if I were you.Since they don't fit your agenda, that's obvious. Let me know your methodology for determining income and how it's better than Forbes alright? Just saying it has to be more because New York is "really big" doesn't really cut it.
Imagine how much they'd be losing if they hadn't hired Larry Brown. Or not taken on all that extra salary. Marbury made the difference. Brown really just added to the losses since he's not going to get any players that will work for him.

Look, they are losing money this year, accept it. Zeke is taking all the rope Dolan has let loose. Whether he hangs himself remains to be seen - but it looks like his only hope is landing one of the two players you mentioned. I woudn't say either is likely.

[Bruno]

And he couldn't even dent Brown's rotation, while Lee has...Lee is a good solid player and I gurantee you if the Spurs could get him for Nazr after this season they would do it in a heartbeat.

Lee has played SF over journeymen Barnes, Woods...), PF (Malik Rose) and injured player (Richardson) in one of the worst team in the league.
Nazr was in a playoff team behind better players (like Ratliff)
You can guarantee what you want but you aren't the Spurs, I wouldn't do a Nazr/Lee trade.



Well most teams in the NBA would give up a lottery pick for Curry...lazy or not. He's still. one of the most talented bigmen in the league and he has proven NBA talent...I don't think the Knicks anticipated being this bad this year, and they definitely don't anticipate it for next year...but I don't see anyone who is going to solve their problems as the #1 pick this year...another F?

But few teams will give up a top3 pick for Curry.
The pick could have been top3 or top5 protected.
A good GM aticipate, the Spurs pick traded during the Malik/Nazr trade is top10 protected this year : do you really think Spurs anticipate being a lotery team this year.
A player like Aldridge can really help NYK.



Excepting the heart condition you just described 99% of the C's in the NBA...including Shaq...who would you have prefered he get? Tim Duncan? Empty space?

False, watch games and look at some stats.
Never put Shaq and Curry in the same sentence.
A guy like Magloire was a better choice than Curry. (especially when your PF is too a poor defender :Channing Frye)



And I don't imagine he is planning on keeping all those guards...but then again, at my worst, I have the memory capacity of at least a retarded horse, unlike yourself, and can easily recall Isiah's penchant for frequent trades.

Marbury, Francis and Crawford are way overpaid, they aren't good trade assets. Robinson has little value.



I wonder why Isiah probably has a sensitive spot to that type of criticism...
Do you even remember who he gave up to get Marbury?


They gave up scrubs + two first round picks + they take Penny's contract.
Without this trade they could have been under the cap for the 06 summer and have more picks. FA + draft is still the best way to rebuild.
Knicks are now in a dead end street with tons of untradable players (because of their contracts).

[Kori Ellis]

Thanks to Isiah for bring Whottt back to form.

[whottt]

That's why I asked about the no-trade clause -- Chicago can put together a much more attractive trade package with their young players -- and perhaps the Knicks overall #1.

They could...but I do imagine Garnett has a no trade clause, and I don't think he wants to go be another one man team...which is what he'd be after Chicago makes that trade.

[Peter]

NY has way more leeway in taking on guaranteed salary than in other markets. That does mean that they can make moves that others cannot. That doesn't necessarily mean that those moves are good moves, but they have that flexibility, a flexibility which plenty of other NBA franchises do not.

[ChumpDumper]

He can't quit Zeke.

[Horry For 3!]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever

[Peter]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever


Nah, they fired the worst one:

http://deseretnews.com/photos/layden0707.jpg

[Bruno]

I wonder when the Knicks will fire Isiah. He is the worst GM ever

maybe soon : http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/9273417

[Horry For 3!]

Nah, they fired the worst one:

http://deseretnews.com/photos/layden0707.jpg
:lmao goofy ass dude

[SequSpur]

Whottt is high.

The Knicks are almost the worst team in the history of the NBA.

with Larry Brown as the coach.

[SenorSpur]

So if the Knicks supposedly have all this talent, why are they winning? I'll tell you why. Because they're mostly a bunch of selfish, whiny bastards who have no concept of how to play defense or play together.

What has Francis ever done in his career? Same with Marbury? How about Richardson and Crawford? Anybody remember Jerome James and his "trash bad preening" after his "one-series wonder" performance in last year's playoffs?

All these guys have ever done is worry about getting their shots, making their numbers, and counting their checks.

The selfish, egocentric, behavior is not just limited to the court. When he's not "browbeating" the players, Larry's busy openly lusting after other players that he "doesn't have" on the roster. The players who hate Larry's bitching run directly to Isiah's office.

Meanwhile, Isiah is busy "flirting" with the female management and "wielding implied power" to make nonsensical trades. I heard today that the owner has now decided that Isiah must now clear all trades with him first.

Make no mistake about it. The coach and GM don't like each other. They don't talk to one another. Which explains why the owner had to summon both to his office today for a "meeting of the minds."

Bad trades. Bad decisions, Bad management. It's a mess that has developed over years and will take years to fix - no matter who is the coach and the GM.

[JamStone]

December 2003, Isiah Thomas is hired by the New York Knicks. The current roster of the 2003-04 New York Knicks when Thomas took over was the following:

Charlie Ward > Howard Eisley > Frank Williams
Allan Houston > Shandon Anderson
Keith Van Horn > Clarence Weatherspoon
Kurt Thomas > Antonio McDyess > Michael Sweetney > Maciej Lampe
Dikembe Mutombo > Michael Doleac > Othella Harrington > Slavko Vranes

Realize this was basically ONLY TWO YEARS AGO. The financial situation was already a mess with the Knicks. Had Isiah just sit on the contracts and waited for them to expire, the same people that criticize Thomas now would have been calling for his head in much the same way: "Why did we hire this guy if he's not going to do anything?" or "Shouldn't Isiah bring some talent in here to improve the ballclub?" or "Why is he getting expired contracts when Dolan doesn't mind spending?"

It was a catch-22 because of the state the Knicks were already in. Two years. Only two years later ...

Charlie Ward, the starting point guard then, is retired.

Howard Eisley, the main back-up point guard, is fighting for 10 day contracts to stay in the league.

Frank Williams, Layden's first round draft pick point guard of the future, is out of the league.

Allan Houston, the franchised player, is retired.

Shandon Anderson, the main back-up at both the shooting guard and small forward positions, is essentially the twelfth man off the Miami Heat bench, 9th man, if you want to be nice.

Keith Van Horn, the starting small forward, is doing much better in a new environment as a power forward back-up to Dirk Nowitzki. But, because he could shoot 3-pointers, Layden was convinced he could be a starting small forward in the league.

Clarence Weatherspoon, who because of the roster mostly logged minutes as a small forward, is gone from the NBA. Teresa Weatherspoon is a better basketball player.

Kurt Thomas, one of the few solid players Layden kept around, also was a player who sticked around under Isiah Thomas. He was a solid player who liked playing for the Knicks but did not get along with Isiah. They parted ways, and Isiah got some value for him in Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson. It's not much and both have disappointed, but it's something.

Antonio McDyess, who is now much better and more fully recovered from knee injury, was used to get Stephon Marbury. Most people didn't expect McDyess to be as good as he is now, but then again, Phoenix and Denver gave up on him also. As bad as Marbury appears when looking also at his contract, when he was first traded for, ticket sales and jersey sales went up for the Knicks. It still is a business.

Michael Sweetney, Layden's last first round draft pick, is not good.

Maciej Lampe, Layden's other draft pick from 2003, is not good

Dikembe Mutombo, who Layden pegged to anchor the Knicks' defense, even back in 2004 was old and not good.

Michael Doleac, a decent back-up center, was worth giving up to get Nazr Mohammed at the time.

Othella Harrington, a Layden favorite, was and is still an undersized center who at best could be a decent fourth big man off the bench. Getting a dynamic player like Jamal Crawford for Othella and Dikembe was worth the risk, even though Crawford has not worked out as well as Isiah would have hoped for.

Slavko Vranes was Layden's very last pick as a Knicks executive. Late second round pick and was like 8 feet tall. No need for comment. He's no longer in the league.


Look at those players. Six of the 15 aren't even in the league anymore just two years later. Four more shouldn't be in the league anymore. Only five players even really contribute to NBA teams, and only Kurt Thomas is a starter. That's what Isiah Thomas had to work with. Not only was the salary situation already a mess, but the players the Knicks had just two years ago were BAD. Of course, he was going to have to take some bad deals if he wanted to do anything to the roster.

Now, the current Knicks roster:

Stephon Marbury > Nate Robinson
Steve Francis > Jamal Crawford
Jalen Rose > Quentin Richardson > Qyntel Woods
Maurice Taylor > Channing Frye > David Lee > Malik Rose
Eddy Curry > Jerome James > Jackie Butler

The financial situation is still a complete mess, and even worse than 2003-04. There's no debate over that. And, even the talent they do have on the Knicks' current roster is overpaid with bloated contracts. That's true as well. But, there is TALENT. There is YOUTH. Ten or eleven of these 14 players will STILL BE IN THE NBA two years from now, barring career ending injury.

Isiah Thomas can be criticized for many things, taking on huge long-term contracts and making the Knicks a financial nightmare for years to come, giving away draft picks, not finding compatible pieces for team chemistry. All of that is true. But, what he did do was get talent. He got youth. He got some pieces to work with. Maybe another GM would have gone a different direction and done a better job. But, with what Isiah had to start with, are you so sure?

And, one masterful thing Isiah Thomas did, even though it's not the way he would have liked to do it, was get people talking about the Knicks again. The Knicks under Scott Layden became irrelevant. In some ways, especially from a business perspective, that's worse than being horrible. At least people talk about the Knicks. Marbury gave the Knicks jersey sales and ticket sales, at least at the beginning. Eddy Curry did the same thing. Nate Robinson gave Knicks fans something to talk about as well. Larry Brown and Isiah Thomas are both controversial figures who evoke emotion, whether you love them, hate them, despise them, or pity them. You have an opinion.

Isiah Thomas has done a horrible job as Knicks GM so far. He's been very, very bad. But, as bad as he has been, he probably hasn't been as bad as you THINK he has been. He's done some good things. Talent and youth is on the roster where it once wasn't. Buzz, even though it's negative, is around the Knicks. There's no such thing as bad pub, as the old saying goes. People will laugh, but just a few more changes or trades, and the Knicks could be a playoff contending team next year. And, if they are the right changes, tweaks, and additions, the Knicks might even be a pretty good team.

[Peter]

Great post. People seem to forget how horrid of a GM Layden was in NY. Some of it was beyond his control (ie Houston's early retirement), but still, Zeke looks like RC Buford compared to that guy.

[TDMVPDPOY]

knicks team fucked up after 99 season, why didnt they retain sprewell n camby?

[SenorSpur]

So the Knicks have gone from bad to worse, or is it worse to bad during the Thomas era.

Sure Scott Layden was a horrible GM. However Thomas is only better because instead sitting on his hands he HAS made moves - many of them questionable at best.

Sure they now have youth, but lack the right type of players to be a respectable team.

If you call having negative publicity, bloated contracts, in-house bickering and bad chemistry a "step-up" from the Layden era - then Thomas has been successful. Anyway saying Thomas is slightly better than Layden is a bit like saying Castro is a slightly better leader than Hitler.

The bottom line is they Knicks still suck. The damage to that team and to the culture of that organization is so wide and so deep that they will contiue to suck for many years to come.

[JamStone]

So the Knicks have gone from bad to worse, or is it worse to bad during the Thomas era.

Sure Scott Layden was a horrible GM. However Thomas is only better because instead sitting on his hands he HAS made moves - many of them questionable at best.

Sure they now have youth, but lack the right type of players to be a respectable team.

If you call having negative publicity, bloated contracts, in-house bickering and bad chemistry a "step-up" from the Layden era - then Thomas has been successful. Anyway saying Thomas is slightly better than Layden is a bit like saying Castro is a slightly better leader than Hitler.

The bottom line is they Knicks still suck. The damage to that team and to the culture of that organization is so wide and so deep that they will contiue to suck for many years to come.


I don't really disagree with anything you said. I was just trying to clear up some things and rebut the notion that Isiah is the "WORST" by showing what he had to work with when he came in. I don't know if it's necessarily bad to worse or worse to bad. I think it's yet to be determined because the players he has now have a longer shelf life to turn things around. As I mentioned, the 2003-04 Knicks team was filled with players who no longer play.

So, if Isiah sits on most of the contracts to let them expire, and makes a few cursory low-level trades and changes, maybe his team is better set up for the future. But, the last two years would not have been any different. The 2004 draft pick Isiah traded in the Marbury trade ended up being Kris Humphries for Utah. Maybe Isiah drafts Jameer Nelson, who was still available. Last year's draft probably would have been the same, as Isiah still probably would have targetted Channing Frye, but he would not have had the David Lee pick. Maybe he still makes the Quentin Richardson-Kurt Thomas trade and with Jameer Nelson already on the roster, maybe Isiah takes New York son Francisco Garcia. Maybe he stills signs Jerome James. But, Houston and Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley would probably still all be gone. McDyess would have become a free agent and would have also likely been gone.

Even though the Knicks didn't make the playoffs last year and won't make the playoffs this year, imagine the Knicks fielding the following team this year:


Jameer Nelson > Frank Williams
Quentin Richardson > Francisco Garcia
Keith Van Horn > Trevor Ariza
Channing Frye > Othella Harrington > Michael Sweetney
Jerome James > Michael Doleac


With Van Horn's contract expiring, perhaps the Knicks would be in a much better position financially. But, is this team much better than the current one, or a better question is whether this team is better suited to win more games? Would a big name free agent still want to come to the Knicks with this roster? Would Thomas be able to pull of a big sign-and-trade deal with the pieces he has on this hypothetical roster?

All of this is of course conjecture. I don't blame anyone for harsh criticism of Zeke for the trades he's made or the contracts he's taken on. I'm just saying look at the alternative. If he had sit on most of those contracts and only made a few cursory trades and changes, the Knicks are still probably looking at two lottery seasons the last two years. And, there would have been no buzz from the Marbury and Curry acquisitions. There probably would have been no Larry Brown ... well, maybe, maybe not. And, what top tier stars would want to come to New York to play with Quentin Richardson and Jerome James? And, with no real trade assets, which stars under contract would be able to come to New York?

Think in the alternative when genuinely and thoroughly evaluating Isiah Thomas. He's made some horrible decisions over the last two years. There's no question about it. But, in most of those instances, it was better than the alternative.

Knicks fans would still be finding their team in the lottery, except even more of them would care less. And, there would be no controversy except that the Knicks suck. How many ways can you write that in a sports article? Yes, negative publicity is better than no publicity. It's better than nothing ...