The night Mavs fans face reality

[Rummpd]

Watch and learn Mavs fans, you are coming into da house of horrors.

You are coming in with a vaunted and streaking team that has the "Feb" banner ready to hand on the rafters; and leaving with the realization deep down by the end of the night that you will know that there is always next year.

You are coming in with in reality that despite some statistical improvement, when it counts these are the same old Mavs, except instead of 3 superstars you have one supremely talented but historically soft one in the playoffs; and some very good young players but also Keith friggin van Horn and "head case" Stackhouse.

You are coming in with a coach that although he is doing a good job still sounds like the young kid on the car lot trying for his first sale and is still awaiting his voice change (his only saving grace is that he is a former Spur and has shown more stones in hitting a game winning shot in the playoffs than all his players put together have in their careers so far).

You are coming in with a reserve center that incredibly makes more change a year than the Spurs reserve center.

You are coming in and leaving quietly - out. :smokin :elephant

[JohnMcClane]

As an impartial Mav fan I must admit you do have an edge in your coach. And if Horry was playing you would have an edge with your roster.

[Rummpd]

The post was toungue in cheek but you are a very sage fan!

[JohnMcClane]

The one major thing I think we have going for us compared to years past is that Dirk is playing incredibly well. He appears to be getting close to his peak.. if not, and he still has a lot of growing left, watch out!

The key is that Dirk is only 27... and Jordan and Shaq didn't win a championship until 28.. so every year Dirk gets better and better and more and more likely to break through. I still think we have some chemistry issues that need addressing though.

[nkdlunch]

Huge difference, Dirk can't play D. Until he learns to play good D he won't win a championship.

[island_dude]

This game, though important in some respects, won't make or break either team's season. If the Mavs lose, they'll still be around in May. This game isn't as big as it's being hyped.

[BigVee]

This game, though important in some respects, won't make or break either team's season. If the Mavs lose, they'll still be around in May. This game isn't as big as it's being hyped.


Totally agree. Regardless they are going to play each other in the second round. HC? The better team at that time will win, no matter where the games are played.

[TDMVPDPOY]

when are the one hit wonders (pistons) and the pretenders (mavericks) are goin to realise they are yesterday news.

last season was all about legends are born, this season is about the legacy!

GO SPURS GO

[T Park]

so every year Dirk gets better and better and more and more likely to break through

When is he going to start working on defense?

[leemajors]

when are the one hit wonders (pistons) and the pretenders (mavericks) are goin to realise they are yesterday news.

last season was all about legends are born, this season is about the legacy!

GO SPURS GO

only an idiot would call the pistons one hit wonders, they have made the NBA finals the last 2 years. i hope the spurs can do that too.

[JohnMcClane]

When is he going to start working on defense?

I don't think you have been watching the Mavs much. Dirk is a much better defender than he is given credit for. Dirk's defensive game is identical to his offensive game. In the same way that he is incredibly versatile for his size he is equally as versatile defensively. Dirk was the Mavs best defensive center in the playoffs.. and our best defender on Nash in the playoffs. That is incredible versatility. No he isn't a stopper on the perimeter or the post.. but he can hold his very well. If used properly this can be a great asset defensively.

Dirk's teammates have always made him look much worse defensively than he is. If you switched scenarios at the beginning of their careers -- Duncan playing next to Shawn Bradley.. and Dirk playing next to Drob.. who knows how things might have turned out differently today.

As Ducnan in the Olympics has shown us recently.. who a player has around him is key........

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Totally agree. Regardless they are going to play each other in the second round. HC? The better team at that time will win, no matter where the games are played.


Disagree. HC advantage means a SHITLOAD to a team that knocks down free throws at a very high percentage.

Let us not forget where the game was located the night the Mavs-Spurs playoff in 2003 when the Mavs shot like 51 free throws

(FIVE-ONE!!)

Great thread, btw.

[FromWayDowntown]

I don't think you have been watching the Mavs much. Dirk is a much better defender than he is given credit for. Dirk's defensive game is identical to his offensive game. In the same way that he is incredibly versatile for his size he is equally as versatile defensively. Dirk was the Mavs best defensive center in the playoffs.. and our best defender on Nash in the playoffs. That is incredible versatility. No he isn't a stopper on the perimeter or the post.. but he can hold his very well. If used properly this can be a great asset defensively.

I think Dirk is a better defender now than he was a couple of years ago, but I still think he relies WAY too much on swatting at the ball rather than moving his feet to gain and maintain position defensively. He's not a particularly good man defender in the post, but he's a decent off-the-ball shotblocker and he can create problems with his length when he rotates.


Dirk's teammates have always made him look much worse defensively than he is. If you switched scenarios at the beginning of their careers -- Duncan playing next to Shawn Bradley.. and Dirk playing next to Drob.. who knows how things might have turned out differently today.

David Robinson didn't MAKE Tim Duncan a great defender. Timmy was a great defender leaving college. David may have aided Tim's transition into the NBA, but Tim was and remains a great defender because that has always been one of his great strenghts. Timmy would have been a great defender playing next to Bradley or anyone else.

Likewise, while I think David Robinson may have been able to cover for some of Dirk's defensive failings, I don't think being a great defender is a matter of osmosis.

If you switch Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki at the beginning of their careers, the Mavericks have a couple of titles, most likely, and the Spurs are still looking for more post defense and hoping to unseat the Mavericks.

[101A]

...the Mavs-Spurs playoff in 2003 when the Mavs shot like 51 free throws

(FIVE-ONE!!)

Great thread, btw.

worst......



game.......



ever.

Bavetta should have been shot after that travesty.

[FromWayDowntown]

Bavetta should have been shot after that travesty.

Is that just a matter of general principle?

Bavetta wasn't on the floor for that game -- the officials were Ron Garretson, Bennett Salvatore, and Greg Willard.

Boxscore (http://www.nba.com/games/20030519/DALSAS/boxscore.html)

Dallas outshot the Spurs 50-48 in attempts and 49-31 in makes.

[adrienne]

I'm already facing reality on my own, thank you very much.:)

No matter who wins, however (coughspurscough), these are two good teams who have been playing well, and it should be an exciting game to watch.

[1Parker1]

Adrienne, stop trying to jinx us by saying Spurs will win! I'm onto you're little tactics...:lol

[101A]

Is that just a matter of general principle?

Bavetta wasn't on the floor for that game -- the officials were Ron Garretson, Bennett Salvatore, and Greg Willard.

Boxscore (http://www.nba.com/games/20030519/DALSAS/boxscore.html)

Dallas outshot the Spurs 50-48 in attempts and 49-31 in makes.

FWD,

I expect you to check my facts in the PF, but damn, slamming in here...

remembered it COMPLETELY wrong.

[101A]

From that boxscore, however:

I really miss that Timmy.

[Obstructed_View]

Dirk's teammates have always made him look much worse defensively than he is. If you switched scenarios at the beginning of their careers -- Duncan playing next to Shawn Bradley.. and Dirk playing next to Drob.. who knows how things might have turned out differently today.

As Ducnan in the Olympics has shown us recently.. who a player has around him is key........
Lamest argument ever. It's amazing that you followed it up with the

Lamest
Argument
EVER

[StylisticS]

I honestly think the bigger game is in April. Nevertheless, this is a statement game for both teams. Dallas to show San Antonio that they will not lie down to the defending world champions. San Antonio to show Dallas that we are still the world champions and you have to beat us in our house to get to where you want to go.

[dmac]

Is that just a matter of general principle?

Bavetta wasn't on the floor for that game -- the officials were Ron Garretson, Bennett Salvatore, and Greg Willard.

Boxscore (http://www.nba.com/games/20030519/DALSAS/boxscore.html)

Dallas outshot the Spurs 50-48 in attempts and 49-31 in makes.
doesn't matter which official was on the floor salvatore=bavetta=hosejob

[Despot]

Dirk will be screaming at his teamates in disgust by the end of the night.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

(his only saving grace is that he is a former Spur and has shown more stones in hitting a game winning shot in the playoffs than all his players put together have in their careers so far).
ouch. ouch. ........I love it.

[FromWayDowntown]

FWD,

I expect you to check my facts in the PF, but damn, slamming in here...

remembered it COMPLETELY wrong.

Nothing personal, 101, I assure you. That game was an abomination (though the Spurs had only themselves to blame for losing) but it wasn't Bavetta's fault (this time -- there are certainly other instances in which Bavetta's calls could be questioned).

For some reason, I have this funny feeling that Salvatore might be calling the game tonight.

[Obstructed_View]

Well at least some of those around here will have an excuse if the Spurs lose...

[island_dude]

I think Dirk is a better defender now than he was a couple of years ago, but I still think he relies WAY too much on swatting at the ball rather than moving his feet to gain and maintain position defensively. He's not a particularly good man defender in the post, but he's a decent off-the-ball shotblocker and he can create problems with his length when he rotates.



David Robinson didn't MAKE Tim Duncan a great defender. Timmy was a great defender leaving college. David may have aided Tim's transition into the NBA, but Tim was and remains a great defender because that has always been one of his great strenghts. Timmy would have been a great defender playing next to Bradley or anyone else.

Likewise, while I think David Robinson may have been able to cover for some of Dirk's defensive failings, I don't think being a great defender is a matter of osmosis.

If you switch Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki at the beginning of their careers, the Mavericks have a couple of titles, most likely, and the Spurs are still looking for more post defense and hoping to unseat the Mavericks.
It's hard to say whether or not if Dirk had been given the proper coaching on defense, like he has now, if he would've developed into a better defensive player

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Nothing personal, 101, I assure you. That game was an abomination (though the Spurs had only themselves to blame for losing) but it wasn't Bavetta's fault (this time -- there are certainly other instances in which Bavetta's calls could be questioned).

For some reason, I have this funny feeling that Salvatore might be calling the game tonight.

NATURALLY
how else could a nationally televised spurs game go?

Christmas afternoon, Chauncy Billups faking a three (and both feet leaving the ground) and he shoots after that and swishes it at a pivotal point in the game

who was the ref right behind him? Wasn't it Salvatore

He gets all of the "big" spurs games, its a fucking farse



DAVID ROBINSON C 23 2-2 0-0 3-6 0 2 2 1 2 1 0 0 7


That's pretty Rasho-esque :lol
But i'll be damned if he didnt do the damn thing


That's

[FromWayDowntown]

It's hard to say whether or not if Dirk had been given the proper coaching on defense, like he has now, if he would've developed into a better defensive player

Perhaps. But it's ridiculous to say that Duncan would have been as defensively-stunted as Dirk has been if Tim had gone to Dallas upon entering the NBA, which is the hypothesis that I took from JohnMcClane's post.

[JohnMcClane]

I never said he would have been stunted.. I was implying that he wouldn't be as overrated as he is today defensively without Drob playing with him from day one. And Dirk certianly wouldn't have been as underrated as he is now.

Dirk plays as much D as just about any other big star in the game today.. heck.. he plays more D than Kobe most nights.. but Dirk is constantly under the microscope defensively.

Kobe is another example of a player that was overrated offensively and defensively because they came into the league with a great player already on their team. Though Ducnan is nowhere near as overrated as Kobe. Don't get me wrong. But clearly playing with a player as great as Drob made Duncan look better than he was.. when have 2 bigmen of their caliber played together before? And as unselfishly?

[angryllama]

I think Dirk is a better defender now than he was a couple of years ago, but I still think he relies WAY too much on swatting at the ball rather than moving his feet to gain and maintain position defensively. He's not a particularly good man defender in the post, but he's a decent off-the-ball shotblocker and he can create problems with his length when he rotates.


I think that you make some nice points. Dirk doesnt have the core strength to keep his base square against most players in the post. Especially rugged post players like Shaq, Duncan, etc. although he did do a great job manned up on Amare Stoudemire every time they met last season. His size gave Stoudemire problems because he could close down his high angles at the rim and the refs wouldnt allow Stoudemire to lower his shoulder and bullrush Dirk.

Dirk has problems with guys that are strong in the legs/abdomen that can back people down really well (think Barkley). This is well known and is focused on way too much with Dirk. It's a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. He's not that type of player. I think that you have to ask the question about whether or not that is neccessary for Dirk to be able to do that to have a major impact on the game, and its obvious that its not neccesary for Dirk to defend the post against rugged post players to dominate a game. His tenure with Dallas has resulted in the best stretch of wins in Maverick history, and it might be important to note that in that period, the Mavs are the second-most productive squad behind the Spurs. That is mainly because of Dirk.

I think that the problem comes when trying to fit Dirk's effect on the game into a preconcieved formula for success. Dirk by nature is an oddity. Truly an original and carving a spot in NBA history as one of the most unique players of all-time. Dirk is entering his prime years, and should be able to continue to lead Dallas at this level of production for another 3-5 years. If he is able to do that, we could be talking about one of the most productive individual players in NBA history. I think that its trivial to try to fit his game into a box and negate his success because he's not a post up defender. Was Larry Bird? Watch the Celtics-Lakers era games. The defense wasnt nearly as strong as it is today.

To evaluate Dirk's defense, you should start with this: does his defense effect the outcome of the game in a positive way? The answer is yes. There have been several instances this season (and last regular season/ playoffs) where Dirk has made defensive plays that have literally won the game in the closing seconds. In fact, Dirk is leading the NBA in "crunch time stats" because of his complete contributions in the 4th period and overtime. Dirk has a couple of things that he can do and do successfully on defense. To toss those things aside because he cant defend Shaq or Duncan in the post doesnt make a whole lot of sense. That's not Dirk's game, and that's not what makes him successful. There are plenty of other things that he does to contribute that make him a successful player and there's no doubt that he's been successful. The only other step he has to make is to win a championship. There arent many franchises or players in NBA history that have done that. Its truly an accomplishment to do that. People make it sound like you have to do that to be considered great, but that's not true. Malone never won one, Chamberlain didnt win one until he became a spare on the Lakers, Wilkins didnt win one, Ewing didnt win one, Robinson needed Duncan, Shaq needed Bryant, etc. It will truly be a great feat on the Micheal Jordan level if Dirk is able to lead his team to a championship without a legit second star.

[adrienne]

Adrienne, stop trying to jinx us by saying Spurs will win! I'm onto you're little tactics... :lol

Ha, sorry, do you prefer this?

GOMAVSGOMAVSGOMAVS HAHA SPURS SUXXXX!!!111 NO1 CAN BEAT DIRK HAHA DIRKRULZZZ!!! :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[Jimcs50]

Tony needs to stay on top of Jason Terry. He has hit 14 of 20 three pointers the last 3 games...he is on fire.

If they hold him in check, Spurs win.

[pache100]

Dirk will be screaming at his teamates in disgust by the end of the night.

I hope so. He's like a petulant kid...he's disgusted and screaming, it means he's frustrated, and when he gets frustrated, he makes a lot of mistakes.

While I believe that is true, I hope both teams bring their A game. I hope it's a good clean fight. And, for both teams' sake, I hope the refs have already pulled their heads out of their respective asses and cleaned their glasses.

[leemajors]

I never said he would have been stunted.. I was implying that he wouldn't be as overrated as he is today defensively without Drob playing with him from day one. And Dirk certianly wouldn't have been as underrated as he is now.

Dirk plays as much D as just about any other big star in the game today.. heck.. he plays more D than Kobe most nights.. but Dirk is constantly under the microscope defensively.

Kobe is another example of a player that was overrated offensively and defensively because they came into the league with a great player already on their team. Though Ducnan is nowhere near as overrated as Kobe. Don't get me wrong. But clearly playing with a player as great as Drob made Duncan look better than he was.. when have 2 bigmen of their caliber played together before? And as unselfishly?

exactly how is duncan overrated defensively? he is an incredible on the ball and off the ball shotblocker - even more amazing this season since he has zero lift. the spurs with or without drob have been one of the top defensive teams for 5+ years. as a matter of fact, the bob hill spurs were known for their lack of defensive intensity - that all changed when duncan came to the spurs. you can basically put any center of varying defensive talent next to duncan - ex. drob, rasho, nazr - and the defensive stats do not vary too much. duncan overrated on d? that's laughable.

[angryllama]

And, for both teams' sake, I hope the refs have already pulled their heads out of their respective asses and cleaned their glasses.

The odds are pretty slim on that happening!

[FromWayDowntown]

I never said he would have been stunted.. I was implying that he wouldn't be as overrated as he is today defensively without Drob playing with him from day one.

How, exactly is Duncan overrated defensively. I swear, so many Dallas fans are convinced that the entire Spurs team is overrated. What's the basis for that? A team that has won 2 of the last 3 titles, and every player on the roster is overrated according to many Mavericks fans. That's ridiculous.

Tim Duncan is a game-changing defender, not only because he's an elite on-the-ball shot blocker and rebounder, but because he's a great positional defender and a shot changer. Until bothered by his recent foot ailment, Tim had the best lateral defensive movement of any big man (with Ben Wallace being the only possible exception). Tim is almost never dislodged once he takes up his defensive position and he stays in front of his man by moving his feet. By staying in front of his man, he is able to influence players to either not take shots in the first place, or to take difficult shots from all sorts of odd angles, what he doesn't block he usually changes in some respect, and what he doesn't change he often rebounds on the miss. In each of those respects, Tim Duncan is about as good as it gets in the NBA as a post defender. Overrated, my eye!


And Dirk certianly wouldn't have been as underrated as he is now.

Now you're being a homer. Dirk has been "underrated" because he's rarely done much defensively. For years, he had the same movement as a crossbuck at a railroad crossing -- he'd swipe his arms down on driving players and occasionally come up with steals, but he didn't move his feet and was frequently beaten off the dribble for easy points at the rim. Has he improved? Sure. Would any reasonable NBA observer claim that he should be considered for an all-defensive team? Absolutely not. Dirk might have appeared to be better had he played with David Robinson, mostly because David was good enough defensively to clean up messes left by his teammates' poor defense. But you seem to assume that David did that a lot with Tim; that assumption is flat damned wrong. Tim has more than proven (both before and after David retired) that he's an independent reason for the Spurs' improved defense. I'm not sure that the same could have ever been said for Dirk.


Dirk plays as much D as just about any other big star in the game today.. heck.. he plays more D than Kobe most nights.. but Dirk is constantly under the microscope defensively.

Dirk doesn't play as much defense (or play defense as well) as any number of great players. Just among forward types who were or could have been considered for all-star spots, Dirk is not in the same league as Tim, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby, and Pau Gasol (to name a few).

Dirk is constantly under the microscope most nights because he is the best player on his team, his team has been eliminated from the playoffs because of its inability to defend, and the inability to defend has largely been personified by Dirk. If Dirk comes up big and the Mavericks win something, that question may go away; but until he does that, the microscope on his defense is perfectly warranted.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Spurs better win tonight.

[himat]

Adrienne, stop trying to jinx us by saying Spurs will win! I'm onto you're little tactics...:lol

and now that i've said that it will unjinx...and now that i've said that...

[angryllama]

Dirk is constantly under the microscope most nights because he is the best player on his team, his team has been eliminated from the playoffs because of its inability to defend, and the inability to defend has largely been personified by Dirk. If Dirk comes up big and the Mavericks win something, that question may go away; but until he does that, the microscope on his defense is perfectly warranted.

I dont agree here. The Mavs have been winning something under Dirk. All you have to do is look at the records since 2000. Dallas is right behind the Spurs in that period, and even battled them in the WCF before Dirk went down with an injury. Dallas has better playoff results than any team outside of the Lakers and Spurs during that period in the West, and unlike the Lakers, Dallas has remained competitive and has possibly improved their team. Where the Lakers lost Shaq and gave the reigns to Bryant, they have felt a sharp decline and have been mired in mediocrity. Where the Mavs have given the reigns to Dirk and let Nash walk, the Mavs have improved.

Look at Dirk's career playoff averages. They are through the roof. I think that your microscope is focused on the wrong thing. How anybody beside Dirk can be considered as the league MVP at this point is beyond me. Nash is close this season too, but outside of those two you really have to stretch. Nash has Marion who is playing out of his mind this season too. Dirk has a bunch of guys who are good, but not 'Marion' good and has led this team to 58 wins last season and is on pace for 66 this season. That's pretty impressive. Maybe your microscope isnt revealing anything of value if it cant tell you why Dallas has been so successful under Dirk.

[FromWayDowntown]

I dont agree here. The Mavs have been winning something under Dirk. All you have to do is look at the records since 2000. Dallas is right behind the Spurs in that period, and even battled them in the WCF before Dirk went down with an injury. Dallas has better playoff results than any team outside of the Lakers and Spurs during that period in the West, and unlike the Lakers, Dallas has remained competitive and has possibly improved their team. Where the Lakers lost Shaq and gave the reigns to Bryant, they have felt a sharp decline and have been mired in mediocrity. Where the Mavs have given the reigns to Dirk and let Nash walk, the Mavs have improved.

That's a great point -- if getting it done in NBA jargon meant having nice regular seasons and some occasional successes in the postseason. Dirk draws attention -- Dirk's defense draws attention -- because the Mavericks haven't won anything that matters.

The Mavericks of today look very much like the Spurs between, say 1990 and 1998. Those Spurs teams would roll up gaudy regular season records, get through a round in most playoff years, and even got to a conference final where they gave a flicker of hope of an NBA title. But in the end, all of that got David Robinson a bunch of talk about how he couldn't get it done when it mattered -- ironically, the same talk that Dirk faces. The Spurs of that era were among the best teams in the West, but never could do anything about deciding the West and getting to the Finals. If it was fair to question David Robinson in that era, it's certainly fair to cast similar doubts about Dirk Nowitzki.


Look at Dirk's career playoff averages. They are through the roof. I think that your microscope is focused on the wrong thing. How anybody beside Dirk can be considered as the league MVP at this point is beyond me. Nash is close this season too, but outside of those two you really have to stretch. Nash has Marion who is playing out of his mind this season too. Dirk has a bunch of guys who are good, but not 'Marion' good and has led this team to 58 wins last season and is on pace for 66 this season. That's pretty impressive. Maybe your microscope isnt revealing anything of value if it cant tell you why Dallas has been so successful under Dirk.

For the record, I'm not the one who suggested that Dirk was under the microscope, but I adopted the metaphor and tried to explain why that's true. It's not my microscope to focus. But to the extent that people question Dirk, it's for the reasons cited in this thread and, more particularly, because having a few nice playoff runs and winning a lot of regular season games has rarely been enough for a superstar to resolve the doubts against him. For crissakes, that stuff still follows Barkley and Malone around, and they at least won MVPs and led teams to the Finals.

[island_dude]

Just among forward types who were or could have been considered for all-star spots, Dirk is not in the same league as Tim, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby, and Pau Gasol (to name a few).
I wouldn't go so far to say he isn't in the same league as those guys, unless you're talking about defense only. In fact he's a better offensive player than all those guys you mentioned.

[leemajors]

Just among forward types who were or could have been considered for all-star spots, Dirk is not in the same league as Tim, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby, and Pau Gasol (to name a few).
I wouldn't go so far to say he isn't in the same league as those guys, unless you're talking about defense only. In fact he's a better offensive player than all those guys you mentioned.

he is better than them offensively, but FWD is talking about defense only. actually, dirk is just a better pure shooter, not necessarily a better offensive player than most of those.

[FromWayDowntown]

I wouldn't go so far to say he isn't in the same league as those guys, unless you're talking about defense only. In fact he's a better offensive player than all those guys you mentioned.

John McClane said:


Dirk plays as much D as just about any other big star in the game today..

to which I retorted:


Just among forward types who were or could have been considered for all-star spots, Dirk is not in the same league as Tim, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand, Shawn Marion, Marcus Camby, and Pau Gasol (to name a few).

That's why I bothered to use that little quote box before making my point.

[FromWayDowntown]

Just to be clear: my point here isn't to bash Dirk. I think Dirk is an outstanding player and I think some of the criticism he faces is as dubious as the criticisms that haunted David Robinson for years. I think at some point, Dirk will be a key part of a championship team (hell, it might even be this year) and when that happens, he'll deserve all the credit that's been unjustly taken from him, just as David did.

I'm primarily responding to assertions about Dirk's play (and an aspersion on Tim Duncan) that I find to be unreasonable. Dirk is a lot of things, but for right now, he's not a great defender. He's an improved defender to be sure, but he is a star because he's so damned potent and difficult to matchup with on the offensive end. But let's make sure we keep all of that in perspective.

[angryllama]

[QUOTE=FromWayDowntown]That's a great point -- if getting it done in NBA jargon meant having nice regular seasons and some occasional successes in the postseason. Dirk draws attention -- Dirk's defense draws attention -- because the Mavericks haven't won anything that matters.
The Mavericks of today look very much like the Spurs between, say 1990 and 1998. Those Spurs teams would roll up gaudy regular season records, get through a round in most playoff years, and even got to a conference final where they gave a flicker of hope of an NBA title. But in the end, all of that got David Robinson a bunch of talk about how he couldn't get it done when it mattered -- ironically, the same talk that Dirk faces. The Spurs of that era were among the best teams in the West, but never could do anything about deciding the West and getting to the Finals. If it was fair to question David Robinson in that era, it's certainly fair to cast similar doubts about Dirk Nowitzki.

First off, good post. On to the meat...

Dirk Nowitzki is just 27 years old. Some people forget that. He's got another 3-5 years of prime basketball left in him. If Dallas performs at anywhere near the level they are this season during that period, things are bound to break the right way for them to get into the Finals. I think its safe to say that when they get there, they'll have a legit chance to win because there isnt a Jordan in the league anymore (unless one pops up in Cleveland or Miami). Dirk could break through at any point over the next few seasons. It's not improbable that that happens. Duncan is getting up there in age, Manu is a little older than Dirk, and there really isnt anyone else I think can beat Dallas in 7 if they continue to play like they have for the past two seasons in the near future. The Spurs are the only thing in the way.

Like Robinson, Dirk is performing right now without a legit #2 player. A trip to the finals this season would be muy muy impressive. Robinson is one of the top 50 of all-time and wasnt able to pull that one out despite being a dominant two-way player.

Casting doubts is one thing, but to focus only on his shortcomings is another. To try to illegitimize what could be one of the most significant impacts on the league by a single player in a long time would not be fair either. What team isnt trying to find Dirk on some European playground?


For the record, I'm not the one who suggested that Dirk was under the microscope, but I adopted the metaphor and tried to explain why that's true. It's not my microscope to focus. But to the extent that people question Dirk, it's for the reasons cited in this thread and, more particularly, because having a few nice playoff runs and winning a lot of regular season games has rarely been enough for a superstar to resolve the doubts against him. For crissakes, that stuff still follows Barkley and Malone around, and they at least won MVPs and led teams to the Finals.

Does Dirk not deserve the MVP this season? He does. I cant see a better argument out there. Dallas has reached new heights under Dirk moreso than Phoenix has under Nash this season. Dallas is setting all kinds of franchise records and has set watermarks for other teams this season. Who would have thought that Dallas would be able to legitimately put pressure on the Spurs to extend themselves in the chase for homecourt? With a win either tonight or in their next meeting, Dallas really puts some pressure on them. SA are the champs. They cant let Dallas make noise at their expense.

If Dirk continues at this level and doesnt win NBA MVP, it will be one of the greatest MVP snubs of all-time (excluding any MVP vote that left Jordan short of #1). It really would be a shame for Dirk to lose the MVP and would smack of discriminatory bias. I dont know exactly why the media discriminates against Dirk so much in their coverage of him, but it is obvious and childish. Any accomplishment is minimized and any failure is blown out of proportion. Did any of you know that Dirk hit a game winner against Tornto, and then blocked the game-winner on the other end? After he blocked the game winner at the end of regulation? That's what I'm talking about. You probably heard that Toronto beat up on Dallas' defense or some nonsense like that. To carry that type of bias into an MVP vote would be criminal. The guy deserves it more than anyone else so far this season.

[slayermin]

This is a big game for the Spurs, huge game for the Mavericks.

[leemajors]

steve nash won the mvp last year, and is leading a far different team this year to remarkable success. if he wins it again it is no slight to dirk - nash is showing how valuable he is leading two virtually different squads to great records.

[FromWayDowntown]

First off, good post.

I appreciate your appreciation.


On to the meat...

Dirk Nowitzki is just 27 years old. Some people forget that. He's got another 3-5 years of prime basketball left in him.

But, again, you're bumping directly into the David Robinson argument. If it was fair to criticize David during the 1990's, it's equally fair to question Dirk. Results matter.


If Dallas performs at anywhere near the level they are this season during that period, things are bound to break the right way for them to get into the Finals. I think its safe to say that when they get there, they'll have a legit chance to win because there isnt a Jordan in the league anymore (unless one pops up in Cleveland or Miami). Dirk could break through at any point over the next few seasons. It's not improbable that that happens. Duncan is getting up there in age, Manu is a little older than Dirk, and there really isnt anyone else I think can beat Dallas in 7 if they continue to play like they have for the past two seasons in the near future. The Spurs are the only thing in the way.

You'll note that my subsequent post accounts for that possibility. For now, though, it's all speculation. Will Dirk's legacy be changed if he leads a team to the Finals? Sure. But until that happens, there's nothing to change his legacy. Is it possible that the Mavericks will win a title in the near future? Sure. But is it possible that they won't? Absolutely.

And I'd say that in the near future, there's more than the Spurs to worry about in winning titles. That team in Detroit is awfully good.


Like Robinson, Dirk is performing right now without a legit #2 player. A trip to the finals this season would be muy muy impressive. Robinson is one of the top 50 of all-time and wasnt able to pull that one out despite being a dominant two-way player.

And yet, despite being a top 50 of all-time player who was dominant on both ends, Robinson took crazy heat until his team reached the Finals. What Dirk "endures" for now is hardly unprecedented.


Casting doubts is one thing, but to focus only on his shortcomings is another. To try to illegitimize what could be one of the most significant impacts on the league by a single player in a long time would not be fair either. What team isnt trying to find Dirk on some European playground?

I'm not sure that Dirk has had "one of the most significant impacts on the league by a single player in a long time." Dirk is a unique player and a marverlous one at that, but, again, the lack of postseason successes will haunt him for some time. I realize that Dallas fans see Dirk as one of the most potent forces in the history of basketball, but the truth is that for now, he's a big forward who scores at high rates for his era by shooting the ball well from distance. He does a few other things well, but he's not exactly changed the basketball landscape, as far as I can see.


Does Dirk not deserve the MVP this season?

I think he deserves serious consideration, but I'm not sure he's going to win it, and I don't think it would be illegitimate if he didn't.


I cant see a better argument out there.

Of course you can't, but you're a Mavericks fan.


Dallas has reached new heights under Dirk moreso than Phoenix has under Nash this season.

I think that's a pretty ridiculous statement. Nash's team is on pace to win 57 games after having lost an offensive force who is more dominant even that Dirk. He's maintained that team despite the fact that 60% of its starting lineup is different than the lineup that ended the 2005 playoffs. Despite the lack of continuity and the loss of a 26 ppg scorer, the Suns are likely going to win their division, have the #2 seed, and will be a virtual lock to make a repeat trip to the WCF. I'd say that's pretty damned impressive.


Dallas is setting all kinds of franchise records and has set watermarks for other teams this season.

Again, you might ask Pistons fans about that, since their team has more wins and a better winning percentage than the Mavericks. Meanwhile, it seems to me that Dallas franchise records are fairly insignificant to the overall context of the league (just as any franchise record that is not an NBA record would be).


Who would have thought that Dallas would be able to legitimately put pressure on the Spurs to extend themselves in the chase for homecourt? With a win either tonight or in their next meeting, Dallas really puts some pressure on them. SA are the champs. They cant let Dallas make noise at their expense.

True enough. That's why Dirk has to be a candidate for the award.


If Dirk continues at this level and doesnt win NBA MVP, it will be one of the greatest MVP snubs of all-time. It really would be a shame for Dirk to lose the MVP and would smack of discriminatory bias.

And that statement deserves consideration as one all-time hyperbole. Dirk might not win the MVP, but it's not because he's white or foreign or anything like that. For crissakes, the guy who I think should win is equally white and foreign!


I dont know exactly why the media discriminates against Dirk so much in their coverage of him, but it is obvious and childish. Any accomplishment is minimized and any failure is blown out of proportion.

Been there done that. See David Robinson era in San Antonio. You act as if no player has had to endure what Dirk is taking. I realize that most Mavericks fans are pretty much unaware of an NBA before 2001, but I'd tell you that the criticism that Dirk faces is pretty pedestrian compared to the hell that marked David Robinson's career. And, I'd tell you that in their comparative primes, David Robinson was a far better player (in virtually every respect) than Dirk Nowitzki.

[boutons_]

so what's the injury situation tonight?

Tim has his PF, and Manu is supposedly still not up to speed from previous injury.

What about the Mavs' injuries?

[angryllama]

so what's the injury situation tonight?

Tim has his PF, and Manu is supposedly still not up to speed from previous injury.

What about the Mavs' injuries?

Dirk - ankle (probable)
Josh Howard - ankle (probable)
Devin Harris - quad (questionable)
DJ Mbenga - ?

[Joepa]

Dang FWD is on a tear!

So uh... yeah, what he said :0P

[mavsfan1000]

Marion is playing out of his mind. Nash has something to do with this but Marion's stats numbers are monsters. Of course you could say that Dirk gets a lot of help to with the bench and Josh Howard. It is a tough choice for whoever gets it but I don't think Nash deserved it last year or this year for he had great teammates. Last year was like an all star team with Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, and Nash and this year the bench is really deep along with Marion having his best year.

[FromWayDowntown]

Marion is playing out of his mind. Nash has something to do with this but Marion's stats numbers are monsters. Of course you could say that Dirk gets a lot of help to with the bench and Josh Howard. It is a tough choice for whoever gets it but I don't think Nash deserved it last year or this year for he had great teammates. Last year was like an all star team with Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, and Nash and this year the bench is really deep along with Marion having his best year.

Here's what I don't get about Mavericks fans.

To bolster an argument that their team will win the West, they point to how deep and talented their team is. But to bolster an argument that Dirk should be the MVP, they argue that he's basically dragging the rest of that roster to its great record. One or the other might be true, but they can't BOTH be true. So which one is it?

[mavsfan1000]

Despite how deep the mavs are without Dirk you will see a big dropoff since he still plays heavy minutes and is the key to the mavs success. You could say he draws a lot of attention and everyone around him looks really good because of that. Josh Howard I doubt would be dominating the interior if it wasn't for this. That is Dirk drawing one of the bigs outside and teams constantly keying on him.

[MajicMan]

http://discovery-cove.discount-tickets.us/images/celebs/armstrong.jpg
http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/PIO/images/armstrong.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/hornets/armstrong2_030728.jpg

[angryllama]

What's up with the DA pictures? Am I missing something?

Is that a mugshot? If so, why is he in that mugshot?

[angryllama]

Here's what I don't get about Mavericks fans.
To bolster an argument that their team will win the West, they point to how deep and talented their team is. But to bolster an argument that Dirk should be the MVP, they argue that he's basically dragging the rest of that roster to its great record. One or the other might be true, but they can't BOTH be true. So which one is it?


I think that its both, FWD.

When you consider Dallas' success, you look at their offense. Dirk is the key that turns the ignition there. Everything is worked through, around, and considering Dirk. Dirk makes the important plays, and if he doesnt shoot it, he usually is the man with the assist. Dirk has taken over games consistently in the 4th period this season. Big time stuff. MVP stuff.

On the other hand, if it was solely Dirk out there Dallas wouldnt be able to keep Dirk fit for the fourth period. Dallas' depth has allowed them to sit him for big stretches so that he's fresh in the 4th. The bench/support players usually hold serve or keep the team close until Dirk re-enters. Dirk comes in and finishes them off. Dallas has won alot of close games (and games where they were down alot) in the 4th because Dirk was fit and finished strong. He nearly singlehandedly beat the Nuggets, Suns, Raptors, etc. that way. Other guys help (Terry, Armstrong, Howard), but if Dirk is off everything falls apart. Dirk simply hasnt been off very much this season. Dirk is the cog that turns the offense, and as Hollinger showed in his recent article, the Mavs offense is the most efficient in the NBA. It's a 'playoffs' offense led by an offensive phenomenon.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Dang FWD is on a tear!

So uh... yeah, what he said :0P
Pft. He's always on a tear. No surprise here.

:)

[mavsfan1000]

I disagree about the part where Dirk is off the team is in trouble. Many times he's been off but his prescence draws a lot of attention and than other players step up and carry the scoring load. If Dirk isn't playing defense though then it is a problem.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think that its both, FWD.

When you consider Dallas' success, you look at their offense. Dirk is the key that turns the ignition there. Everything is worked through, around, and considering Dirk. Dirk makes the important plays, and if he doesnt shoot it, he usually is the man with the assist. Dirk has taken over games consistently in the 4th period this season. Big time stuff. MVP stuff.

On the other hand, if it was solely Dirk out there Dallas wouldnt be able to keep Dirk fit for the fourth period. Dallas' depth has allowed them to sit him for big stretches so that he's fresh in the 4th. The bench/support players usually hold serve or keep the team close until Dirk re-enters. Dirk comes in and finishes them off. Dallas has won alot of close games (and games where they were down alot) in the 4th because Dirk was fit and finished strong. He nearly singlehandedly beat the Nuggets, Suns, Raptors, etc. that way. Other guys help (Terry, Armstrong, Howard), but if Dirk is off everything falls apart. Dirk simply hasnt been off very much this season. Dirk is the cog that turns the offense, and as Hollinger showed in his recent article, the Mavs offense is the most efficient in the NBA. It's a 'playoffs' offense led by an offensive phenomenon.

I disagree on both counts.

In the first place, if Dallas is as deep as Mavs fans claim they are, then it's their depth that carries them. Dirk is no doubt aided by that, but what makes them a contender -- what drives their record isn't just Dirk's play; it's the deep roster. At least that's what the Mavs fans around here have tried to argue.

Besides, I (for one) don't think that Dallas' success is predicated on their offense. What makes Dallas a viable contender is their improved defense. If the Mavs were the most efficient offensive team in the league but couldn't play defense, this year would be no different than any of the last 5 or 6. Mavs fans keep telling me that this year is different, so the difference, it seems, must be defense, eh?

And it's clear to me that Dirk is not a defensive demon, so those other guys must be playing a vital role in the success that the Mavericks are experiencing, which says to me that the Mavericks vaunted depth is as big a reason for their record as Dirk's play. That's not to say that Dirk won't win the MVP award this season -- like I say, he's clearly among the top candidates for the award, and rightly so; it's just to say that I don't think Dirk is single-handedly responsible for the success of his team.



One last thing -- are you contending that Dirk is among the greatest offensive players in NBA history or something? Calling him "an offensive phenomenon" suggests to me someone who is in the Jordan stratosphere; the pantheon of all-time great scorers. Dirk is not that. Dirk is a wonderful offensive player and he's a bitch to cover, but he still averages 26 points per game. It's not as if he's shredding the record books with his scoring.

[Leetonidas]

Is that just a matter of general principle?

Bavetta wasn't on the floor for that game -- the officials were Ron Garretson, Bennett Salvatore, and Greg Willard.

Boxscore (http://www.nba.com/games/20030519/DALSAS/boxscore.html)

Dallas outshot the Spurs 50-48 in attempts and 49-31 in makes.

Tim Duncan with 40 points? Holy crap! I totally forgot about that.

[FromWayDowntown]

Tim Duncan with 40 points? Holy crap! I totally forgot about that.

I forgot that the Spurs shot almost 50% and held the Mavs to around 40%, were basically even on the glass, had fewer turnovers, and still lost.

[angryllama]

In the first place, if Dallas is as deep as Mavs fans claim they are, then it's their depth that carries them. Dirk is no doubt aided by that, but what makes them a contender -- what drives their record isn't just Dirk's play; it's the deep roster. At least that's what the Mavs fans around here have tried to argue.

It's obviously a combination of both, but just as Jordan needed Kerr, Armstrong, Grant, Rodman, et al, Dirk needs support players. His support is arguably much thinner than Jordan's was. Dirk has no Rodman, no Pippen. He's got a bunch of guys that are a few notches below those two, some youngsters and some specialists like Dampier, Diop, and Griffin. The intent is not to put Dirk and Jordan in the same league, but to put Dirk's support in proper perspective.


Besides, I (for one) don't think that Dallas' success is predicated on their offense. What makes Dallas a viable contender is their improved defense. If the Mavs were the most efficient offensive team in the league but couldn't play defense, this year would be no different than any of the last 5 or 6. Mavs fans keep telling me that this year is different, so the difference, it seems, must be defense, eh?

The difference this year is that the Mavs can force stops when they need them. They can do so particularly in the 4th, when Dirk has contributed some significant plays on D. I think that you have to understand Dallas' system which is to draw penetrating guards into Diop and Damp and to seal the big guys off on the baseline.

Not only that, but their offense is efficent, not quick-strike. That means that they tire the defense out and take higher percentage shots late in the clock. No secret there. They have become the most efficient team in the league at executing an offense, and that their offense is particularly dangerous because it drains the other team...hence the 4th quarter proficiency on offense and defense that has been a trademark of the Mavs this season. They give the other defense fits and give the effort on their end. Its a little more complicated than you make it seem with the "its one or the other" argument.


And it's clear to me that Dirk is not a defensive demon, so those other guys must be playing a vital role in the success that the Mavericks are experiencing, which says to me that the Mavericks vaunted depth is as big a reason for their record as Dirk's play. That's not to say that Dirk won't win the MVP award this season -- like I say, he's clearly among the top candidates for the award, and rightly so; it's just to say that I don't think Dirk is single-handedly responsible for the success of his team.

Dirk is more responsible for the Mavs' success than any combination of factors excluding him. You have several examples of him literally dominating teams in the fourth John Elway-style this season. Dirk has Vance Johnsons and Sammy Winders to play with, not Emmit Smiths and Micheal Irvins. Dirk is more responsible for his team's success than Chauncey Billups, just as responsible if not moreso than Steve Nash, and his team has had much more success than Nash's and just as much as Billups.


One last thing -- are you contending that Dirk is among the greatest offensive players in NBA history or something? Calling him "an offensive phenomenon" suggests to me someone who is in the Jordan stratosphere; the pantheon of all-time great scorers. Dirk is not that. Dirk is a wonderful offensive player and he's a bitch to cover, but he still averages 26 points per game. It's not as if he's shredding the record books with his scoring.

Phenomenon means just that: a rare commodity that is completely uncommon by its own nature. Dirk is a combination of talents that has never been seen before in the NBA. He's a phenomenon. You are seeing too much in the word.

[timvp]

What's up with the DA pictures? Am I missing something?

Is that a mugshot? If so, why is he in that mugshot?

How do Mav fans not know facts about their own team?

[Dirkuleez]

I dont understand why some people are putting so much stock into this game. Tonights game is nothing more than a statement game for both. The team that losses isn't going to walk away thinking they cant beat the other in a seven game series. Lets just all try to agree that it's going the be a fun game to watch.

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirkuleez

:td


(just kidding)

[timvp]

Dirkuleez

:td


:tu

[mavsfan1000]

I think Dirk is the toughest matchup for San Antonio of any other player in the league. How often does Duncan or Rasho have to guard the outside and if Bowen does than Dirk can take advantage of the size and Josh Howard having more opportunities to tire out Ginobili and hurt his offense. If you play Duncan on Dirk than the interior defense will not be as strong since Duncan has to come out. The same thing goes with Rasheed Wallace.

[timvp]

I think Dirk is the toughest matchup for San Antonio of any other player in the league.

:lol

Dirk is the only bigman in the league that the Spurs switch on pick-and-rolls. Remember through the years how many times the Spurs' point guards have ended up guarding him? Yeah, that wasn't by accident.

Oh and by the way, AJ used to be able to own Dirk on the low post.

:smokin

[Obstructed_View]

I think Dirk is the toughest matchup for San Antonio of any other player in the league.

Of course you do. :lol

[Peter]

A Pop disciple shows the Mavs how to play D and suddenly that erases the history of the last 5 or whatever seasons.

[FromWayDowntown]

It's obviously a combination of both, but just as Jordan needed Kerr, Armstrong, Grant, Rodman, et al, Dirk needs support players. His support is arguably much thinner than Jordan's was. Dirk has no Rodman, no Pippen. He's got a bunch of guys that are a few notches below those two, some youngsters and some specialists like Dampier, Diop, and Griffin. The intent is not to put Dirk and Jordan in the same league, but to put Dirk's support in proper perspective.

Okay, but then you must be telling me that the Mavericks aren't really THAT deep. I just want to be certain I know what the story emanating from Mavericks fans is -- at least for today.


The difference this year is that the Mavs can force stops when they need them. They can do so particularly in the 4th, when Dirk has contributed some significant plays on D. I think that you have to understand Dallas' system which is to draw penetrating guards into Diop and Damp and to seal the big guys off on the baseline.

Gosh, I've never ever seen a team play a defensive system like that.

Oh wait, yes I have -- San Antonio.


Not only that, but their offense is efficent, not quick-strike. That means that they tire the defense out and take higher percentage shots late in the clock. No secret there. They have become the most efficient team in the league at executing an offense, and that their offense is particularly dangerous because it drains the other team...hence the 4th quarter proficiency on offense and defense that has been a trademark of the Mavs this season. They give the other defense fits and give the effort on their end. Its a little more complicated than you make it seem with the "its one or the other" argument.

I'm not sure that offensive efficiency necessarily means that the offense wears down a defense. I think offensive efficiency has much more to do with making the most of a team's offensive possessions. A team that scores on a high percentage of its possessions is efficient, even if it takes shots very early in the clock or on the break. Phoenix, for example, had an efficient offense, but it certainly didn't try to wear defenses down (other than by running the floor at a breakneck pace). That the Mavericks are efficient offensively may explain their 4th quarter successes.


Dirk is more responsible for the Mavs' success than any combination of factors excluding him. You have several examples of him literally dominating teams in the fourth John Elway-style this season. Dirk has Vance Johnsons and Sammy Winders to play with, not Emmit Smiths and Micheal Irvins. Dirk is more responsible for his team's success than Chauncey Billups, just as responsible if not moreso than Steve Nash, and his team has had much more success than Nash's and just as much as Billups.

Again, I'm shocked by the degree to which you minimize what Nash does for Phoenix. You act as though that team is whole and just cruising along at a 57 win pace (which, in most years, would be leading the conference) with their regular cast. That team literally hasn't been whole this entire season, yet it keeps winning. I think the comparison with Billups may be apt; but you're grossly understating what Nash has done for his team. Do you honestly think that if you replaced Nash with any other PG that the Suns would be remotely where they are right now? I can see a similar argument for Dirk, but that's why I say that he's a candidate. You argue as though he's reinvented the game of basketball this season.


Phenomenon means just that: a rare commodity that is completely uncommon by its own nature. Dirk is a combination of talents that has never been seen before in the NBA. He's a phenomenon. You are seeing too much in the word.

What exactly makes him a phenomenon? That he's 7 feet tall and can hit some 3 pointers? Again, he's a bitch to match up with, but so is Kevin Garnett, who has a similar game (although a few feet shorter in terms of range). Is KG a phenomenon too?

To me, the word phenomenon in sports terms means something more superlative than rare and uncommon. Manute Bol was rare and uncommon; was he a phenomenon, too?

[angryllama]

:lol

Dirk is the only bigman in the league that the Spurs switch on pick-and-rolls. Remember through the years how many times the Spurs' point guards have ended up guarding him? Yeah, that wasn't by accident.

Oh and by the way, AJ used to be able to own Dirk on the low post.

:smokin

Dirk will end up with more MVP votes than Duncan this season. Again. :D

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirk will end up with more MVP votes than Duncan this season. Again. :D

And?

[timvp]

Dirk will end up with more MVP votes than Duncan this season. Again. :D

Good thing he wins a championship for each vote he receives.

[Peter]

What about Finals MVP? :smokin

[angryllama]

And?

He was just trying to take a shot at Dirk, so I thought that I would help him with some perspective.

[Obstructed_View]

Dirk will end up with more MVP votes than Duncan this season. Again. :D
Duncan will end up with four more championship trophies than Dirk this season.

[FromWayDowntown]

He was just trying to take a shot at Dirk, so I thought that I would help him with some perspective.

He wasn't saying anything that wasn't true.

Besides, if we wanted to put MVP worthiness into perspective, we could, of course offer up 2 regular season MVPs and 3 Finals MVPs, but I'm sure that would pale in comparison to finishing 3rd one time.

[Obstructed_View]

He wasn't saying anything that wasn't true.

Besides, if we wanted to put MVP worthiness into perspective, we could, of course offer up 2 regular season MVPs and 3 Finals MVPs, but I'm sure that would pale in comparison to finishing 3rd one time.
But Duncan's an overrated defender because he didn't play with Bradley.

[FromWayDowntown]

But Duncan's an overrated defender because he didn't play with Bradley.

Absolutely. Of course Mavs fan has still yet to explain exactly how it is that Duncan is an overrated defender. Much like I've still never heard an explanation for why it is that Parker and Ginobili are overrated players. I guess if you say it enough, you start to believe it.

By the way . . . .

1998- 5th
1999- 3rd
2000- 5th
2001- 2nd
2002 -1st
2003- 1st
2004- 2nd
2005- 4th
?

[angryllama]

Okay, but then you must be telling me that the Mavericks aren't really THAT deep. I just want to be certain I know what the story emanating from Mavericks fans is -- at least for today.

The point was that Dallas has lots of support, but that none of it is as talented as some players have the luxury of playing with. Is there a player on Dallas beside Dirk who is on Pippen's level? Rodmans? Horace Grants? Kobe Bryants? John Stocktons? Marions? Wades? Obviously not, but they have a bunch of Pete Meyers'es, Luc Longleys, etc. They are able to come in waves and their bench does not produce much less efficiently than their starters outside of Dirk. That should have been more obvious.


I'm not sure that offensive efficiency necessarily means that the offense wears down a defense. I think offensive efficiency has much more to do with making the most of a team's offensive possessions. A team that scores on a high percentage of its possessions is efficient, even if it takes shots very early in the clock or on the break. Phoenix, for example, had an efficient offense, but it certainly didn't try to wear defenses down (other than by running the floor at a breakneck pace). That the Mavericks are efficient offensively may explain their 4th quarter successes.

Again, you have to read the whole post and place it into context. The offense grates the defense by eating clock and moving off of the ball. They attack the rim in waves. Then they either score, or miss. If they miss, they are the 4th best team in the NBA at offensive rebounding. Hollinger's analysis says that they are the #1 most efficient offense in the league. To spell it out for you: they eat up clock, wear down a defense, and then score or regain possession and then score.


What exactly makes him a phenomenon? That he's 7 feet tall and can hit some 3 pointers? Again, he's a bitch to match up with, but so is Kevin Garnett, who has a similar game (although a few feet shorter in terms of range). Is KG a phenomenon too?

KG has a similar game, yes, but he is nowhere near the offensive player that Dirk is when it comes to guard type skills. KG is a better passer, but thats about it. Dirk is truly unique. Period. I dont know why you are even trying to argue that point. That's why Dirk will be remembered. The dude is a legit 7'1" or above and moves like a guard on offense.


To me, the word phenomenon in sports terms means something more superlative than rare and uncommon. Manute Bol was rare and uncommon; was he a phenomenon, too?

See, this is just reductionism into irrelevance and it doesnt do justice to the argument at all.

[angryllama]

He wasn't saying anything that wasn't true.


I wasnt saying anything that wanst true either. And I'll add to that: its possible and likely that Dirk will finish ahead of Duncan in MVP voting for the rest of their careers.

[FromWayDowntown]

I wasnt saying anything that wanst true either. And I'll add to that: its possible and likely that Dirk will finish ahead of Duncan in MVP voting for the rest of their careers.

Sure it is. It's equally likely that the opposite will be true, too.

More importantly, though, if what timvp said about Dirk is true, then it really wasn't a shot, now was it?

[angryllama]

Sure it is. It's equally likely that the opposite will be true, too.

If Duncan gets a personal visit from Benny Hinn and his charlatan healer's brigade.

[SequSpur]

Watch the Spurs get blown out, then this topic will look stupid.

Save the smack shit for the playoffs.

The Spurs are Champions. Act like Champion fans....... Shit.

[Obstructed_View]

Watch the Spurs get blown out, then this topic will look stupid.

Save the smack shit for the playoffs.

The Spurs are Champions. Act like Champion fans....... Shit.
All of us know that there's no telling what Spurs team is going to show up on a given night, but at some point you have to take a risk and talk some shit. Especially on your home floor. I'm ready to enjoy a regular season game. Isn't it time to take one personally?

[Obstructed_View]

Also, fear of getting blown out is a lame reason not to talk smack.

[FromWayDowntown]

The point was that Dallas has lots of support, but that none of it is as talented as some players have the luxury of playing with. Is there a player on Dallas beside Dirk who is on Pippen's level? Rodmans? Horace Grants? Kobe Bryants? John Stocktons? Marions? Wades? Obviously not, but they have a bunch of Pete Meyers'es, Luc Longleys, etc. They are able to come in waves and their bench does not produce much less efficiently than their starters outside of Dirk. That should have been more obvious.

Your colleauges are of the opinion that no team has depth that matches the Mavericks' and that the Mavericks' second unit could start for many teams and might even make the playoffs. You seem to be insinuating that I'd be a fool to believe that sort of rhetoric. So, am I right to dismiss the thoughts of your colleauges?


Again, you have to read the whole post and place it into context. The offense grates the defense by eating clock and moving off of the ball. They attack the rim in waves. Then they either score, or miss. If they miss, they are the 4th best team in the NBA at offensive rebounding. Hollinger's analysis says that they are the #1 most efficient offense in the league. To spell it out for you: they eat up clock, wear down a defense, and then score or regain possession and then score.

Oh, I understood what you said. I just think it's incorrect to presume that an efficient offense is a clock-grinding offense. And I think it's incorrect to presume that a clock-grinding offense will ultimately wear down a defense. It may happen sometimes -- for crissakes, it might even happen tonight -- but you seem to posit that there is an inescapbable cause-and-effect relationship. I dispute that there is.


KG has a similar game, yes, but he is nowhere near the offensive player that Dirk is when it comes to guard type skills. KG is a better passer, but thats about it. Dirk is truly unique. Period. I dont know why you are even trying to argue that point. That's why Dirk will be remembered. The dude is a legit 7'1" or above and moves like a guard on offense.

KG ran the point for Flip. Does Dirk run the point for Dallas?


See, this is just reductionism into irrelevance and it doesnt do justice to the argument at all.

No, it's testing your argument to see where it ends. I gave an outrageous example, of course, because one manner for testing logic is to take a statement to an extreme. I dispute your assertion that Dirk is unique in the history of basketball, largely because I think Kevin Garnett functionally does many of the same things. That would make Dirk an exceptional player and a difficult matchup, but not an all-time phenomenon. Just my humble opinion.

[mavsfan1000]

The mavs don't have a Pippen or a legit second option but their bench is great. That is what he is trying to say.

[angryllama]

The mavs don't have a Pippen but or a legit second option but their bench is great. That is what he is trying to say.


The Mavs dont have a Pippen or a Rodman, but basically have three third options (Terry, Howard, Stackhouse), some role players not anywhere near the level of Rodman or Ben Wallace (Griffin, Diop, Mbenga) and a some fourth options (Dampier, Daniels, Van Horn, Harris).

[FromWayDowntown]

Watch the Spurs get blown out, then this topic will look stupid.

Save the smack shit for the playoffs.

The Spurs are Champions. Act like Champion fans....... Shit.

I agree. I don't think I've said anything about the game tonight. I think it will be a tough one for the Spurs, and I frankly wouldn't be surprised if they lost.

[adrienne]

This thread gives me a headache.

[angryllama]

I agree. I don't think I've said anything about the game tonight. I think it will be a tough one for the Spurs, and I frankly wouldn't be surprised if they lost.

Same for the Mavs.

I'm kind of expecting one team to blast the other out of the arena though. I get the feeling that its not going to be a close game and the winner will come out looking pretty good.

[FromWayDowntown]

Same for the Mavs.

I'm kind of expecting one team to blast the other out of the arena though. I get the feeling that its not going to be a close game and the winner will come out looking pretty good.

You know, I've had that same feeling.

I'm about to head out to the game, but I wanted to thank you for such a civilized exchange. It's refreshing to have that sort of debate with a Mavericks fan. I don't necessarily agree with your points, but I appreciate your arguments.

I hope you'll stick around and engage us more as the season and playoffs progress.

[mavsfan1000]

The mavs and spurs are hot and cold teams. They can go on some extreme runs like 16-0 in a short time but can also give up a lead on turnovers and careless playing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a blowout based on these teams streakiness.

[angryllama]

You know, I've had that same feeling.

I'm about to head out to the game, but I wanted to thank you for such a civilized exchange. It's refreshing to have that sort of debate with a Mavericks fan. I don't necessarily agree with your points, but I appreciate your arguments.

I hope you'll stick around and engage us more as the season and playoffs progress.


No problem. Its nice to have civilized debate. We're all people. We all deserve respect.

Im a Mav fan, but I love what the Spurs represent too. If Dallas doesnt take the trophy, I'll be rooting for the Spurs.

I'll check back in with you guys soon. I'll probably stop in tomorrow regardless of the outcome.

Have fun at the ballgame.

[mouse]

10 to 5 Mavs on top i like your reality :lmao

[Rummpd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SequSpur




Watch the Spurs get blown out, then this topic will look stupid.

Save the smack shit for the playoffs.

The Spurs are Champions. Act like Champion fans....... Shit.




SequSpur - idiot post and lack of little faith post of the year! Spurs as predicted proved they are still the reigning champions.

[Rummpd]

Out and good night - Saniety rules in the NBA standing right now, two best teams are at the top!

[hussker]

As an impartial Mav fan ...

Does not exist...else you would not be a FAN...self proclaimed

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I think Dirk is the toughest matchup for San Antonio of any other player in the league. How often does Duncan or Rasho have to guard the outside and if Bowen does than Dirk can take advantage of the size and Josh Howard having more opportunities to tire out Ginobili and hurt his offense. If you play Duncan on Dirk than the interior defense will not be as strong since Duncan has to come out. The same thing goes with Rasheed Wallace.
um. excuse me.......could you please re evaluate this statement. ESPECIALLY THE ONE ABOUT BOWEN and please get back to this great forum. get used to 4th. "and somebody said...........FAIR WARNING...........LOOOOORRRRRRDDDDDD............LO RRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDD.....strike those poor mavsssssss downnnnnnnnnnnnn." thank you Lord. Amen

[Josh810]

10 to 5 Mavs on top i like your reality :lmao
lol.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

10 to 5 Mavs on top i like your reality :lmao
oops, mouse got owned again, oh well whats new http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif