For those Piston fans who said..

[Sense]

...The pistons wouldn't get tired as the season neared its end.




"There are really, really signs of fatigue," Billups said. "It's not having enough energy to take it to the basket and take that pounding. Instead, it's taking the shots that might be halfway open."


Don't look now but... The Pistons have 11 losses while the Mavs and Spurs have 12.

[TDMVPDPOY]

karma is a biatch isnt it :D:D

[FreshPrince22]

It's funny, Chauncey said to the paper within the last couple days that he doesn't see any fatigue in anyone. This was the 7th game in 10 days with travel between each day, and the 2nd of a back to back. Any team would be fatigued. I don't think he meant long term. I just think he meant that they were fatigued at the end of that game. They've got 3 days off now, so everything should be good to go.

And personally, I don't care about HCA. The Mavs aren't going to make it to the finals, and the Pistons have proven they can win in San Antoino, so it's not a big deal either way. I would just assume they wrap up the east and get the starters fresh for the playoffs. Pistons still own the tie-breaker anyways.

[jochhejaam]

...The pistons wouldn't get tired as the season neared its end.





Don't look now but... The Pistons have 11 losses while the Mavs and Spurs have 12.
Sense, back to back road games 2,000 miles from home is tiring to all teams at any point in the season.

The Spurs are 4-6 in back-to-backs this year and only 3-6 when the 2nd game of the B2B is on the road.

Losses
@ Dallas
@ Washington
@ Atlanta
@ NO/Oklahoma City
@ Phoenix
@ Cleveland

Wins
@ New York
@ NO/Oklahoma City
@ Golden State
Golden State (home)

Not sure what point you're trying to make?

Pistons are 12-5 in back to backs this year including 7-4 when the second game is on the road

Losses
@ Dallas
@ Utah
Utah
@ Indiana
@ Lakers

Wins
Toronto
@ Portland
@ Milwaukee
@ Chicago
@ Charlotte
Portland
@ NY
Milwaukee
Minnesota
L.A. Clippers
@ Chicago
@ Cleveland


The Pistons have 22 back to backs this year.
The Spurs have 16 back to backs this year.
The scheduling gods strongly favored S.A. and with your record on B2B's it's a good thing.

Someone has a problem with fatigue but it doesn't appear to be the Pistons





-For Mavsfan1000, you're 9-5 on B2B's and have a total of 19 B2B's this season. At this point in time you're 6-4 when the 2nd game is on the road.

[Brutalis]

joch this isnt about the crap you ranted on about.

its about you guys saying being tired wont be an issue.

in which you are all owned for it now. thanks to chaunceys own words.

[Brutalis]

pistons schedule is tougher because of more b2bs? right. i dont see the pistons going on the road for 12 games.....

double pwned. sweet.

[jochhejaam]

joch this isnt about the crap you ranted on about.

its about you guys saying being tired wont be an issue.

in which you are all owned for it now. thanks to chaunceys own words.
I usually refrain from commenting on your posts because they're so boneheaded in nature (and this one's no exception). but if I pointed out that fatigue is more of an issue with the Spurs than it is with the Pistons then I've quite clearly made my point.
I don't expect you to grasp anything other than the most simplest of concepts and this point will no doubt clear the signals from your satellite as well.




I'll have to see if someone offers a class in cavemanese and once I master it we'll have a discussion. :lol

[jochhejaam]

pistons schedule is tougher because of more b2bs? right. i dont see the pistons going on the road for 12 games.....

double pwned. sweet.
You're right, we go on the road 41 times, same as the Spurs.

And if you're saying that you went on the road (hard to say what you had in mind there) for 12 straight then you're wrong although you did have 8 straight on the road.

You owned yourself on this one and I'll admit that's quite a feat, nothing to brag about mind you but definitely noteworthy :tu

[ALVAREZ6]

What determines HCA in the Finals???


Is it the regular season record, or whoever won more of the 2 regular season games???

[jochhejaam]

What determines HCA in the Finals???


Is it the regular season record, or whoever won more of the 2 regular season games???
Regular season.

[ALVAREZ6]

Regular season.
ok.

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

And personally, I don't care about HCA. The Mavs aren't going to make it to the finals, and the Pistons have proven they can win in San Antoino, so it's not a big deal either way. I would just assume they wrap up the east and get the starters fresh for the playoffs. Pistons still own the tie-breaker anyways.

They may have won Game 6 last year in our gym, but when it comes to deciding games at the now AT&T Center, your Pistons are 0-1.

[infinite styles]

I thought that Billups comments reflected more on the fact that they play such heavy minutes night after night back 2 back or not. B2B's are going to fatigue any team but with the amount of minutes that Flip has his starters playing everynight is the main reason why Billups might be saying that. When Flip had KG he was at the top of the league in minutes played per game which may have factored in the way they performed in the playoffs (not including the inability to adjust the game plan).

[jochhejaam]

I thought that Billups comments reflected more on the fact that they play such heavy minutes night after night back 2 back or not. B2B's are going to fatigue any team but with the amount of minutes that Flip has his starters playing everynight is the main reason why Billups might be saying that. When Flip had KG he was at the top of the league in minutes played per game which may have factored in the way they performed in the playoffs (not including the inability to adjust the game plan).
There must be an optimal amount of minutes or threshold that each player can play that maximizes his performance. I think Flip and other coaches closely monitor their minutes and look for that threshold and the temptation may be to push it a bit at the end of close games in order to pick up a win. Our 5 starters log between 35.8 and 36.8 which places them between 38th and 50th in the league. I don't think the minutes are excessive to the point where they'll have an impact on them in the playoffs where there are no back-to-back games.

[FreshPrince22]

They may have won Game 6 last year in our gym, but when it comes to deciding games at the now AT&T Center, your Pistons are 0-1.
Actually, wouldn't game 6 be considered a deciding game as well? If the Spurs had won, it would have decided the series. Or does it have to be both?

All I know is that I know the Pistons can win in San Antonio. Obviously you'd prefer HCA, but with teams so evenly matched like the Pistons/Spurs, I think HCA is more of a factor depending on the conference finals. Last year the Pistons came off of a 7 game series against a rested Spurs team. I think that really hurt them a lot more than not having HCA.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I kind of prefer those first 2 games to be on the road, because all the pressure is on the home team to win both of those games. The road team can really get a lot of momentum if they just steal 1. Last year, the way the conference finals played out for both teams didn't help the Pistons any trying to accomplish that.

[bdubya]

Starter fatigue or not, I want to see more bench minutes just so the bench gets DEVELOPED. So that if we hit a two- or three-minute stretch where NOTHING is falling, we'll be able to count on somebody off the bench like Delk or Delfino for a little spark. (Delfino in particular, IMHO, should be getting at least 10 minutes/game, mainly at Tayshaun's expense).

And just to go OT here, Chauncey's post-All-Star-break assist/TO ratio is STILL a startling 9.4 : 1.
:smokin

[yeahone]

just accept the fact that you guys are getting tired and stop beating round the bush

[JamStone]

I don't know what Pistons fans said that the Pistons starters wouldn't get tired AT ALL, as the season neared its end. But, I sure believed and still do that the Pistons starters won't be fatigued ANY MORE than any other NBA players who play starter minutes.

Over an 82 game regular season, with the travel and the back-to-backs and sometimes stretches with a lot of games in a short amount of time, almost every player logging starter minutes is going to feel fatigue at some point during the season.


If there were Pistons fans that said specifically that the Pistons starters would not feel fatigued AT ALL, then they were wrong. But, if what they meant was they won't be any more tired than other NBA starters, I think that's true.

But ask yourself ...

Why would Rasheed's 35.8 minutes a game make him more tired than Tim Duncan's 35.5 minutes a game? Will those extra 25 minutes over six months and 82 games make that much of a difference?

Will Rip Hamilton be much less fatigued and fresher than Dwyane Wade in the playoffs because Rip averages 36.6 mpg and Wade averages 39.0 mpg? Should Wade be resting games right now at the end of the season?

Would Tayshaun Prince outplay LeBron in a playoffs series if Cleveland and Detroit met since Tayshaun logs 36.2 mpg to LeBron's 42.5 mpg? Should Mike Brown be chastised for playing LeBron ALL THE TIME?

Are Elton Brand's 39.9 mpg going to make him that much less productive than Ben and his 36.3 mpg?


Kobe Bryant averages 40.7 mpg and Allen Iverson averages 43.6 mpg, and yet you don't hear that much talk about fatigue with them. Yet, people love to talk about fatigue with respect to the Pistons starters. And, yet actually, Kobe, Dirk, Iverson, Wade, Duncan, Nash, and LeBron are the types of players that face double and tiple teams and have the burden to score or make plays for their respective teams upwards of 70-80% of the time. And, the Pistons starters, who rarely see double teams and share the burden of scoring, and defense should be more concerned about fatigue towards the end of the season?

Chew on that for a minute.

YES, the Pistons players have been and will be tired and somewhat fatigued over the last part of the regular season and even into the playoffs to a certain extent. But, not more than any other NBA starter logging 35+ minutes a game, especially those who are "stars" that require the focus and physical demands of being the center attraction on a team.

[Sense]

You're comparing your whole team to allstars.... ^

Most are Veteran All-stars...

You make a GOOD POINT!

[JamStone]

You're comparing your whole team to allstars.... ^

Most are Veteran All-stars...

You make a GOOD POINT!


Thanks ... I think.

But, I'm not sure what being an all-star has anything to do with fatigue. I compared the Pistons starters to all-stars because those all-stars log heavy minutes as starters. Does being an all-star, or more importantly a veteran all-star, preclude them from experiencing fatigue? Just curious.

I could compare the Pistons starters to non-all star players like the following:

Andre Miller 36.7 mpg
Andre Iguodala 37.7 mpg
Richard Jefferson 39.8 mpg
Raja Bell 38.2 mpg
Lamar Odom 39.4 mpg

I'd still ask the same question. Would fatigue not affect those players just the same as the Pistons starters? Or wouldn't those players feel even more fatigue since they average MORE minutes per game? Does it make a difference that their other teammates who start don't all average 35-37 minutes per game.

So, is it the fact that the Pistons are winning or are known for playing tough defense make a difference in terms of them feeling more fatigue at some point in the regular season? Serious and sincere question ... does it?

[Brutalis]

You're right, we go on the road 41 times, same as the Spurs.

And if you're saying that you went on the road (hard to say what you had in mind there) for 12 straight then you're wrong although you did have 8 straight on the road.

You owned yourself on this one and I'll admit that's quite a feat, nothing to brag about mind you but definitely noteworthy :tu
In otherwords, you're one stupid bitch who got owned quite easily and can't handle it.

Looza.

[Joepa]

Meh the East playoffs are going to be boring.

[bdubya]

pistons schedule is tougher because of more b2bs? right. i dont see the pistons going on the road for 12 games.....


I'm still trying to make sense of that one myself.
:lol :lol :lol

[JamStone]

You're right, we go on the road 41 times, same as the Spurs.

And if you're saying that you went on the road (hard to say what you had in mind there) for 12 straight then you're wrong although you did have 8 straight on the road.


Spurs didn't really have an 8 game road trip. They had a 3 game road trip and a 5 game road trip with almost a full week in between, at which they went home to San Antonio and rested before going on to the 5 game road trip.

[Darrin]

...The pistons wouldn't get tired as the season neared its end.





Don't look now but... The Pistons have 11 losses while the Mavs and Spurs have 12.

12-6 over the last 18 (in 30 days).

[Sec24Row7]

Yeah, you guys are playing like crap.

What gives?

[JamStone]

Yeah, you guys are playing like crap.

What gives?


I don't think the Pistons are playing like crap, but they are definitely not playing as well as they are capable of. And, there are a few reasons for that ...

1. They have been settling for a lot of jumpshots lately because they don't want to take the pounding of going going inside a lot.

2. They are a little tired from the grind of playing about 60 regular season games now.

3. They have had a stretch of a lot of road games recently.

4. Many of the teams that the Pistons have lost to in the last few weeks have played some of their best basketball all season. Both George Karl and Phil Jackson said as much in their respective post game interviews.

5. With the closest Eastern Conference team still 9.5 games behind the Pistons with about 25 games left in the season, it would almost appear the Piston have become somewhat disinterested and less focus in a lot of the recent games.


Playing like crap is certainly an overstatement. The Pistons are not playing great. But, it's more of a case of the aforementioned things than anything. Teams are playing with a lot more energy and intensity against the Pistons at their home stadiums with the help of their home crowds. And, still, the Pistons have been in most of those games, and a large number of them, the Pistons had sizeable leads in the second half. The Pistons just aren't playing with the energy, focus, and motivation as they were earlier on in the season. Acknowledging that Dallas and San Antonio have gained a lot of ground on Detroit, Detroit is still ahead of the game. Not playing their best, but not playing so badly to be a major concern just yet.

[Sense]

Thanks ... I think.

But, I'm not sure what being an all-star has anything to do with fatigue. I compared the Pistons starters to all-stars because those all-stars log heavy minutes as starters. Does being an all-star, or more importantly a veteran all-star, preclude them from experiencing fatigue? Just curious.

I could compare the Pistons starters to non-all star players like the following:

Andre Miller 36.7 mpg
Andre Iguodala 37.7 mpg
Richard Jefferson 39.8 mpg
Raja Bell 38.2 mpg
Lamar Odom 39.4 mpg

I'd still ask the same question. Would fatigue not affect those players just the same as the Pistons starters? Or wouldn't those players feel even more fatigue since they average MORE minutes per game? Does it make a difference that their other teammates who start don't all average 35-37 minutes per game.

So, is it the fact that the Pistons are winning or are known for playing tough defense make a difference in terms of them feeling more fatigue at some point in the regular season? Serious and sincere question ... does it?

Out of everyone you've mentioned... Think of how many were successful in the playoffs by winning a championship...

Mention more than 3.

[JamStone]

Out of everyone you've mentioned... Think of how many were successful in the playoffs by winning a championship...

Mention more than 3.


Exactly what would that accomplish by doing that???

Seeing how the only players still in the league that have won the championship as starters logging about 35 mpg would have been on the either the Pistons, Spurs, or Lakers, there aren't that many players to choose from. I assume you mean to preclude the Pistons players. Well, on the Spurs and Lakers championship teams, only two or three players were 35+ mpg players that are still playing those minutes.

And, now you want me to mention "more than 3"???

You're funny. There weren't that many to begin with, even if you include the Pistons. Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Shaquille O'Neal, Bruce Bowen, Derek Fisher, Manu Ginobili, and Stephen Jackson basically make up the ENTIRE list I could choose from, and of course Shaq doesn't log those minutes anymore, Derek Fisher is a back-up, Stephen Jackson was not a 35 mpg starter in 2003 anyway, and Manu has had limited minutes because of injury. Eight possible candidates who were successful in winning a championship that I could choose from, and you want me to mention three?? If Manu had been healthy this season, I would guess he would hav averaged around 35 minutes a game. Similarly, Shaq has been slowed by injury this season, and with a solid back-up in Alonzo Mourning, and at Shaq's age, Riley has been smart to monitor his minutes. But, heck, Bruce Bowen is 34 years old and he averages 34 minutes a game.

How silly is that?

All of the Pistons starters are averaging about 36-37 mpg.

Kobe Bryant 40.7 mpg
Tim Duncan 35.5 mpg
Stephen Jackson 35.5 mpg
Tony Parker 34.8 mpg
Bruce Bowen 34.1 mpg
Shaquille O'Neal 29.7 mpg
Derek Fisher 29.8 mpg
Manu Ginobili 27.6 mpg

Shaq's minutes are down because of his age. Derek Fisher is now a back-up point guard. And, Manu has had limited minutes because of injury and the acquisition of Finley. The other five all average around 35 minutes a game except for Kobe. So, the Pistons starters all average around 36-37 mpg.

So, what exactly are you trying to say? 50-100 more accumulative minutes over the course of 80 some odd games in SIX MONTHS is going to be spell doom for the Pistons??? Is that what you're really banking on happening?

mmmmmmok ...

[himat]

the pistons will come off this slump, and i'm very sure of it.

[jochhejaam]

the pistons will come off this slump, and i'm very sure of it.
Most teams would love to be in slump where they've only won 9 of the last 12.

[Sense]

I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure the Pistons won't win a championship this season as I read your posts.

[T.F. Storm]

I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure the Pistons won't win a championship this season as I read your posts.
Wishful thinking, Eh? :smokin

[Extra Stout]

All this talk about the Pistons wearing down and getting fatigued, and thus being a diminished team come Finals time, is wishful thinking.

Every team has a lull. That's all this stretch is -- a lull. They're not wearing down any more than most other teams. They never were going to maintain that 72-win pace. Pistons fans knew it. Spurs fans knew it. Bob Dole knew it. And the American people knew it.

And now that the inevitable slowdown has occurred, Spurs fans are latching onto it, because, after all, we need a reason to believe that the two fundamental ass-whoopings the Pistons have pasted upon San Antonio this year aren't indicative of what might happen in the Finals, and the "they shot their wad by playing too hard early in the season" hypothesis sounds as good as any, even though the data in no way support it.

It's going to be one of the all-time reaches when Detroit finishes like 66-16, and there's this handful of Spurs fans screaming, "But they were only 30-11 in the second half! They're slowing down!"

[z0sa]

Wow, these pistons fans are a little overconfident. Last I checked, your team LOST in SA Game 7.

So maybe you should start caring more about HCA...

[bdubya]

...... we need a reason to believe that the two fundamental ass-whoopings the Pistons have pasted upon San Antonio this year aren't indicative of what might happen in the Finals, and the "they shot their wad by playing too hard early in the season" hypothesis sounds as good as any,

I agree with everything you said except that part. The only "hypothesis" needed re: those two beatdowns (those lyrical, artistic beatdowns worthy of framing in the DIA) is that the most recent of them was still in January. I'd love to believe that they ARE indicative of how a Spurs/Pistons finals would go, but then I'd like to still believe in Santa, too.

[Extra Stout]

I agree with everything you said except that part. The only "hypothesis" needed re: those two beatdowns (those lyrical, artistic beatdowns worthy of framing in the DIA) is that the most recent of them was still in January. I'd love to believe that they ARE indicative of how a Spurs/Pistons finals would go, but then I'd like to still believe in Santa, too.
Things that will go the same:

1. The Pistons frontcourt still will be physically dominant
2. The Pistons defense still will stop the plays that none of the other 28 teams can stop (e.g., Parker at the rim).

Things that will go differently:

1. Nazr Mohammed will get minutes instead of Rasho Nesterovic, so it won't seem as if Ben Wallace is playing unopposed the entire game anymore.
2. Manu Ginobili will have an impact on the game.

[Darrin]

1. Nazr Mohammed will get minutes instead of Rasho Nesterovic, so it won't seem as if Ben Wallace is playing unopposed the entire game anymore.

Don't forget about Kelvin Cato and Dale Davis, two guys the Spurs have not seen yet.


2. Manu Ginobili will have an impact on the game.

There's the guy who drew Ginobili comparisons coming into the league - Carlos Delfino, and Maurice Evans - both who have reputations as solid defenders. Neither one was backing up Lindsey Hunter in the Finals last season (Delfino was left off the playoff roster).

Just trying to give you a little more food for thought.

[Sense]

Wishful thinking, Eh? :smokin

Not really, but trust me I thought it was weird too..

[bdubya]

2. The Pistons defense still will stop the plays that none of the other 28 teams can stop (e.g., Parker at the rim).

You really think? That's actually my #1 concern - Pistons have had trouble all season with dribble penetration, especially by quick guards. Coincidentally(?), that seems to be where Parker's developed his game this year. Yeah, we can keep his inside scoring down, but doing it without leaving somebody else open is the challenge.

[Dunc]

I don't know why, but I'm pretty sure the Pistons won't win a championship this season as I read your posts.

Definitely the posts of a fan will have a major impact on whether the Pistons win a championship or not. If it helps ease your mind on this difficult night, please, continue to focus on that.

[jochhejaam]

...The pistons wouldn't get tired as the season neared its end.

Don't look now but... The Pistons have 11 losses while the Mavs and Spurs have 12.

Update-(13)
Puncuation mark! LAC 98 - Spurs 85
Make that 3-7 for the Spurs in the second game of b2b's with the 2nd game being on the road.

Pistons 7-4 in the same situation.

So are the Spurs wearing out as the reg season nears it's end? :lol

I'll be generous and allow you to settle this matter with a simple confession that fatigue is certainly not more of a factor for the Pistons than it is for the Spurs. :)

[Darrin]

Wow, these pistons fans are a little overconfident. Last I checked, your team LOST in SA Game 7.

So maybe you should start caring more about HCA...

This fan does want it, and think it would significantly increase the probability the Pistons will win the NBA Championship. But it's not like this team can't win on the road.

The Pistons have not had home-court advantage for the last two Conference Finals and NBA Finals. In those series, they are 15-10, with 3 series wins. In those series, they have won games in every city - Indiana (2), Los Angeles (1), Miami (2), and San Antonio (1).

-They won their first game in Los Angeles since 1997 in game one of the 2004 NBA Finals.
- They won their first game in San Antonio since 1997 in game six of the 2005 NBA Finals, an elimination game.
- They snapped the Indiana Pacers' 10-game playoff home winning streak in Game 2 of the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals.
- They won game 5 of the 2004 Conference Finals behind Rip Hamilton's playoff career-high 33 points that put the Pacers on the brink of elimination.

And the mother of them all...

- They won the franchise's first game seven on the road...ever in the 2005 Conference Finals. Even the Bad Boys - the '87 Conference Finals vs. the Celtics, the '88 NBA Finals vs. the Lakers - never won a game seven on the road.

I thought that their fatigue last season came from having to gear up on the road for too many wins. I want them badly to keep the Spurs and Mavs at bay. But if it doesn't happen, it's not like I'm going to stop watching the playoffs because there's no chance they'll win it.

[Sense]

Update-(13)
Puncuation mark! LAC 98 - Spurs 85
Make that 3-7 for the Spurs in the second game of b2b's with the 2nd game being on the road.

Pistons 7-4 in the same situation.

So are the Spurs wearing out as the reg season nears it's end? :lol

I'll be generous and allow you to settle this matter with a simple confession that fatigue is certainly not more of a factor for the Pistons than it is for the Spurs. :)


Good thing the playoffs aren't back to back eh?

[Tanya]

Good thing the playoffs aren't back to back eh?

Yeah right.
After the lakers beat the spurs, you previous post sounds a little bit stupid. The pistons have played 8 games in 12 days since back from All star break. 3 sets of back to back. 5 road games. ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE INCLUDING SA can't manage to come out with 8-0. The spurs are deep enough, so how come they couldn't beat the lakers? Do their starters play too much mins?
I am sorry I always respect the spurs. But you made me laugh by saying you think the pistons won't win this year because they play the starters too much in the regular season.
Ok~ I can't prove it to you yet. So we will see later.

[jochhejaam]

Good thing the playoffs aren't back to back eh?
I believe you're the one that brought up this fatigue issue even though the loss was on the back end of a b2b.

[jochhejaam]

Yeah right.
After the lakers beat the spurs, you previous post sounds a little bit stupid. The pistons have played 8 games in 12 days since back from All star break. 3 sets of back to back. 5 road games. ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE INCLUDING SA can't manage to come out with 8-0. The spurs are deep enough, so how come they couldn't beat the lakers? Do their starters play too much mins?
I am sorry I always respect the spurs. But you made me laugh by saying you think the pistons won't win this year because they play the starters too much in the regular season.
Ok~ I can't prove it to you yet. So we will see later.
Can someone call Tanya and tell her to edit this to "After the Clippers beat the Spurs" before Sense sees this? :lol