Crash vs. Brokeback

[Jelly]

I scanned thru the threads and though I saw lots of comments on the Oscars, I haven't seen any on the best picture award. There is a ridiculous amount of carping in the European press (especially British) that Crash is a terrible movie and it only won because we (Americans) are so homophobic and so attached to our beloved cowboy movies to award a film that dares depict them as gay.
Seriously, it was Americans who made the f*cking film, nominated it for a ton of awards, and it was the favorite to win....so the accusation is such bullshit. Damn those Euros piss me off. :cuss

Anyway, I thought Crash was an outstanding film. Some people complain that it is way too exaggerated, but it is not meant as a literal film....I mean, obviously we do have racism in America as do all societies. But it is, in the words of the film makers made to be viewed more as a modern day parable, not as a realistic depiction of what happens on any given day in LA. For me, it was shocking, thrilling, brutal, funny, ironic and heartwrenching.
I loved Crash. And that was absolutely the BEST ensemble acting I've ever seen. Terrence Howard was absolutely brilliant (still can't believe he wasn't nominated in the best actor category).

So, to sum it up, I think Crash was the best film.

Any thoughts?

[JoePublic]

I agree. I thought Crash was one of the better films I've seen. It really got to me and my girlfriend. After it was over we both looked at each other and said, "that was solid".
Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[MannyIsGod]

Crash wasn't the best film. I haven't seen Brokeback and I really have no desire to because it seems like a corny love story all homosexuality aside so I can't comment on if its better.

However, Crash was cliche as all hell. The snow? Give me a break. I get the point they tried to make (who woudln't - being subtle apparently is too difficult these days) but it seems to me they made it too accessible. And there's nothing wrong with an accessible movie as far as the ponit is concerned, but don't sit there and tell me that its a great work when it is the movie equivilant of a Dr. Seuss book.

[JoePublic]

Crash wasn't the best film. I haven't seen Brokeback and I really have no desire to because it seems like a corny love story all homosexuality aside so I can't comment on if its better.

However, Crash was cliche as all hell. The snow? Give me a break. I get the point they tried to make (who woudln't - being subtle apparently is too difficult these days) but it seems to me they made it too accessible. And there's nothing wrong with an accessible movie as far as the ponit is concerned, but don't sit there and tell me that its a great work when it is the movie equivilant of a Dr. Seuss book.

Yeah, I've heard some say that. :rolleyes But most everyone I've talked too thought it was a great film. And if you think about, you can say all movies are a cliche.

I would watch it with a fox
I would watch it in a box

[Jelly]

Yeah, I've heard some say that. :rolleyes But most everyone I've talked too thought it was a great film. And if you think about, you can say all movies are a cliche.

I would watch it with a fox
I would watch it in a box

actually, I would say I've never seen a film that did not contain cliches. The point is how strongly a movie absorbs you and makes you care about the characters, even the ones that are assholes. I hated Matt Dillon's character (for obvious reasons),but in the scenes with his father, I genuinely felt for him. Any movie that can make you feel compassion for someone who is otherwise a total racist dick certainly deserves better comments than ridiculous Dr. Seuss comparisons. But to each his own.

[ididnotnothat]

Crash. :tu

[MannyIsGod]

actually, I would say I've never seen a film that did not contain cliches. The point is how strongly a movie absorbs you and makes you care about the characters. The Dr. Seuss comparison is ridiculous and I can't even take that comment seriously.It is a very fitting comparison. Dr. Seuss specialized in simplistic books. This was a very simplistic respresntation of racism in our society.

You guys want to see a good film on racism, watch the documentary on Jasper that was done a few years ago. Crash was ok, but the fact that it was picture of the year just makes me wonder how lackluster the rest of those nominese were.

[MannyIsGod]

And there are plenty of movies without cliches.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and on top of that, the movie was very unbelieveable. The blanks, The snow, the endless coincidences that make an episode of Lost look simple.

To each their own, but Crash was sub par as a picture of the year for me.

[Spurminator]

Crash had extremely good acting and had an engaging message. Brokeback Mountain has equally great acting and a wonderful feel and look.

Neither of them would even be in my top 5 for the year though.

[Jelly]

Oh, and on top of that, the movie was very unbelieveable. The blanks, The snow, the endless coincidences that make an episode of Lost look simple.

.

Like I said, it was meant as a parable.

[JoePublic]

Crash had extremely good acting and had an engaging message. Brokeback Mountain has equally great acting and a wonderful feel and look.

Neither of them would even be in my top 5 for the year though.

And your top 5 are........


Yes, to each his own. Nobody will agree on it because it is person choice.

I really enjoyed Hustle & Flow. Terrance Howard is very good.

[Spurminator]

And your top 5 are........

:lol

Good question, I'm not sure.

Guess it was a relatively weak year for movies.


As big a fan as I am of small independent films, I thought King Kong was the best overall movie I saw this year. I also liked Munich better than Brokeback or Crash.

Still waiting to see Good Night and Good Luck.

[GoldToe]

King Kong was great on the entertainment scale but not on the Oscar scale.

Crash was cool and The Constant Gardener was great too.

[Jelly]

King Kong was great on the entertainment scale but not on the Oscar scale.

Crash was cool and The Constant Gardener was great too.

Haven't seen those. King Kong I'll have to pass on. Not really my cup of tea.
But I am really looking forward to seeing A History of Violence which is on DVD release March 14th. Can't wait.

[Spurminator]

Well I submit that the "Oscar scale" should factor entertainment into the picture more than it does...

Even with that said I thought it had Oscar qualities along with its entertainment value... Social commentary, great performances... 3 hours long... :lol

A History of Violence is another one I need to see. Constant Gardener too.

[Jelly]

What does bug me about the Academy is that they give no respect whatsoever to comedies. Why should they be excluded from the Best Film category?
If you ask me, and I'm not an actor, really good, intelligent comedy has got to be extremely hard to pull off. (and for this year I would say Wedding Crashers was the best I've seen).

[Jelly]

my final comment of the night (especially directed at Manny). One of the best movies ever was full of cliches (and stereotypes). Nevertheless, it was a brilliant film. Goodfellas.

[T-Pain]

crash by a longshot. i was happy they picked crash over brokeback. no one gives a shit about a couple of cowboy flamers hookin up as much as the effects of sterotyping.

[spurschick]

I haven't seen the other nominated movies, but I loved Crash.

[MannyIsGod]

Cliches are fine, but not in a movie trying to be "deep" and "meaningful". Then they're just cheesy.

[scott]

Crash was the only Best Picture nominee I saw, and I thought it sucked.

[MannyIsGod]

actually, I would say I've never seen a film that did not contain cliches. The point is how strongly a movie absorbs you and makes you care about the characters, even the ones that are assholes. I hated Matt Dillon's character (for obvious reasons),but in the scenes with his father, I genuinely felt for him. Any movie that can make you feel compassion for someone who is otherwise a total racist dick certainly deserves better comments than ridiculous Dr. Seuss comparisons. But to each his own.I just went back and reread your edit. Sorry, but I in no way felt the warm fuzzies for Matt Damon's (or any other for that matter) character in Crash. The man is feeling her up then risking his life for her the next day?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. They might as well have had a clan member running in there and pulling her out.

[Melmart1]

crash by a longshot. i was happy they picked crash over brokeback. no one gives a shit about a couple of cowboy flamers hookin up as much as the effects of sterotyping.

This statement seems to contradict itself. Isn't calling two gay men 'flamers' a stereotype? So you basically used a stereotype to explain why a movie that seeks to explain the affects of stereotyping is better than a movie that seeks to do the same.

In other words, a movie about racial stereotypes>a movie about gay ones?

[kris]

I've seen them both and I thought Crash was just your run of the mill par movie. I had no idea that it was worthy of a best picture nomination so I was surprised it was nominated.

Brokeback was a decent movie. I would probably watch it again just to get the full effect of the movie. I liked it, but I also don't know if it's the best movie of the year.

The movie I really liked was Walk The Line. I'm not very clued in to which movies can be nominated or the mores, but I'll assume this one is not eligible since it wasn't really a story created. It did have some awesome acting and singing though.

Rating Scale 1-10

Crash - 5
Brokeback - 7.3
Walk The Line - 8.1

Oh yeah I thought Saw II was pretty cool, but I know it's not a very artistic movie.

Saw II - 6.4

[Jekka]

I thought some of the acting in Crash was impressive, as was the overall look of the film (though I thought The Constant Gardener was more impressively stylized, a visually beautiful film to watch), but I don't think it was the best film made all year. I haven't even seen all of the Best Picture nominees and think that there were better films. It was moving, yes, but not in a way that I haven't seen before - and it really didn't have any kind of satisfying plot (not in the happy-ending kind of way, but rather in the "oh, there's actually a story here instead of a montage about how life sucks" kind of way).

I'm looking forward to seeing Walk the Line now that it's on DVD. I read Johnny Cash's autobiography a few years ago and loved it.

[ChumpDumper]

Did I even watch five movies in the past year?

Saving up for Police Academy 7, I guess....

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I saw three of the nominated films (Capote, Crash and Munich) and out of those I would've given it to Capote, but I guess that wasn't enough of an "issue movie" to have any real chance. That film was actually filmed up here in Winnipeg so that would have made it extra cool for it to have won, but at least PSH got the well deserved Best Actor nod.

[slayermin]

Crash stole many elements from Robert Altman. Kinda Ironic since Altman received an honorary Oscar.

[Jelly]

Crash stole many elements from Robert Altman. Kinda Ironic since Altman received an honorary Oscar.

well, not really steal. If certain elements and techniques work really well in film, then they are used by others (or stolen as you say). And why not? Robert Altman didn't patent that kind of filmmaking and I don't think he'd want to. He created a new genre and if he were still alive (is he?) he'd probably be flattered.
I do enjoy films/TV shows that employ this technique. Interweaving story lines of characters who don't know each other and the unlikely coincidences between them- if done well- can make a great movie. Actually, if we are going to use the word 'steal', I would say Crash stole more from Magnolia. (I'll bet Manny loved that one :lol ). Even Lost uses the Altman technique. Also, I haven't seen Closer ( it looked really stupid) but I've heard that also borrows a lot from Altman.

[MannyIsGod]

I've never seen Magnolia. :)

[MannyIsGod]

However, I do know Aimee Mann did good work with the soundtrack! :lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I scanned thru the threads and though I saw lots of comments on the Oscars, I haven't seen any on the best picture award. There is a ridiculous amount of carping in the European press (especially British) that Crash is a terrible movie and it only won because we (Americans) are so homophobic and so attached to our beloved cowboy movies to award a film that dares depict them as gay.
Seriously,it was Americans who made the f*cking film, nominated it for a ton of awards, and it was the favorite to win....so the accusation is such bullshit. Damn those Euros piss me off. :cuss

Anyway, I thought Crash was an outstanding film. Some people complain that it is way too exaggerated, but it is not meant as a literal film....I mean, obviously we do have racism in America as do all societies. But it is, in the words of the film makers made to be viewed more as a modern day parable, not as a realistic depiction of what happens on any given day in LA. For me, it was shocking, thrilling, brutal, funny, ironic and heartwrenching.
I loved Crash. And that was absolutely the BEST ensemble acting I've ever seen. Terrence Howard was absolutely brilliant (still can't believe he wasn't nominated in the best actor category).

So, to sum it up, I think Crash was the best film.

Any thoughts? First of all, it wasn't all American's who made Brokeback mountain http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif the director was Taiwanese, the soundtrack composer was Argentinian, the leading man was Australian. I saw both Brokeback and Crash and I have to tell you, Brokeback is ten times the movie Crash is (Terrence Howard and all). You can't tell me you still believe the Oscars aren't political http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Brokeback won because there is still TOO much prejudice going on in America for a "gay" western to take home best picture, and thats the truth. You don't believe me, check out the "gay adoption" and "gay marriage" threads in this forum and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about.

and secondly Jelly, Terrence Howard WAS nominated for Best Actor in a Leading Role, he just didn't win. He was nominated for "Hustle & Flow"

[MannyIsGod]

One of the biggest things for me to get over is that even if I view Crash in the best possible light, I don't see it as best picture worthy.

Last year, when I saw Million Dollar Baby and Hotel Rawanda, I had lasting impressions. It took me awhile to get up at the movies from MDB. The Avaitor and Sideways were also incredible movies.

Crash just isn't in that leauge for me.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

One of the biggest things for me to get over is that even if I view Crash in the best possible light, I don't see it as best picture worthy.

Last year, when I saw Million Dollar Baby and Hotel Rawanda, I had lasting impressions. It took me awhile to get up at the movies from MDB. The Avaitor and Sideways were also incredible movies.

Crash just isn't in that leauge for me.
Exactly!

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, you're full of shit about that. Anyone who knows the Academy knows that the reason Brokeback lost has nothing to do with any supposed homophobia. Hollywood is quite possibly the gayest place in America.

I understand that you have a concept of America where we all walk around afraid of catching the gay bug and toting our guns in our back pockets but you're just a wee bit off base.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, you guys should look up the text of Clooneys acceptance speach for whatever he won early in the night. It was about how the Academy has been ahead of most of America in breaking down discrimination barriers.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok, you're full of shit about that. Anyone who knows the Academy knows that the reason Brokeback lost has nothing to do with any supposed homophobia. Hollywood is quite possibly the gayest place in America.

I understand that you have a concept of America where we all walk around afraid of catching the gay bug and toting our guns in our back pockets but you're just a wee bit off base.
I didn't mean it was ONLY in America, just that America does have a lot of it, and its not only my concept Manny http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

BTW, you guys should look up the text of Clooneys acceptance speach for whatever he won early in the night. It was about how the Academy has been ahead of most of America in breaking down discrimination barriers.
yeah, he was right about that

[Slomo]

Did I even watch five movies in the past year?

Saving up for Police Academy 7, I guess....Off topic:

I passed by a DVD shop today and "Sixteen Candles" was on sale as I looked at the cover I thought to myself "Oh, look ChumpDumper" :lol

This forum is way to addictive :lol

[JoePublic]

One of the biggest things for me to get over is that even if I view Crash in the best possible light, I don't see it as best picture worthy.

Last year, when I saw Million Dollar Baby and Hotel Rawanda, I had lasting impressions. It took me awhile to get up at the movies from MDB. The Avaitor and Sideways were also incredible movies.

Crash just isn't in that leauge for me.

Damn..I got over MDB the second it was over. It was very cliche to me.

Now Hotel Rawanda I agee with.

[Spurminator]

Hotel Rwanda is my favorite movie made in the past ten years. It's criminal that it didn't win more awards, but I think its popularity will grow over time, like Shawshank.

[Louae]

actually, I would say I've never seen a film that did not contain cliches. The point is how strongly a movie absorbs you and makes you care about the characters, even the ones that are assholes. I hated Matt Dillon's character (for obvious reasons),but in the scenes with his father, I genuinely felt for him. Any movie that can make you feel compassion for someone who is otherwise a total racist dick certainly deserves better comments than ridiculous Dr. Seuss comparisons. But to each his own.

great point.

[Peter]

I saw Crash and liked it even though I was sure I wouldn't like it and knew that it was going to be mindnumbingly predictable. To me that's the hallmark of a great movie.

I'm not sure if I will ever see Brokeback Mountain. To me, it's way too contrived in order to advance an agenda. If it was based on a true story, I'd probably go see it.

Capote, on the other hand, is a movie I intend to see.

[Jelly]

To Manumania: It's been a while since I've been on this board, and I'm having trouble with the quote icon, so I have to use the quotation symbol to indicate your comments.

"First of all, it wasn't all American's who made Brokeback mountain http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif the director was Taiwanese, the soundtrack composer was Argentinian, the leading man was Australian."

With all due respect...DUH! But it is still an American film (PRODUCED by Americans, WRITTEN BY AMERICANS (both the original short story and screenplay) with a cast a crew that is primarily American. BTW, I was rooting for Ang Lee to win Best Director and am thrilled for him. Heath Ledger was overrated and his accent/voice was off IMO.

"You can't tell me you still believe the Oscars aren't political"
Never said that.

" Brokeback won because there is still TOO much prejudice going on in America for a "gay" western to take home best picture, and thats the truth. You don't believe me, check out the "gay adoption" and "gay marriage" threads in this forum and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about."

Pure utter BULLSHIT for reasons already stated. If that were true it would have NEVER been cast by a major studio, with major stars, nominated for an Oscar, and then all but considered the winner until Jack Nickleson said Crash and shocked everyone in the room.

" You don't believe me, check out the "gay adoption" and "gay marriage" threads in this forum and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about."

I don't need to. I live here. I am American. I know Americans, I travel around quite a bit, and therefore have a far more accurate view than what one can glean from a message board based in one of the most conservative states in the U.S. As a whole, we are a country of extreme liberals, extreme conservatives, moderates and everything in between. But the people who make Academy award decisions are most definitely the libs.

And regarding the gay adoption and marriage thing, please tell me how long gay marriage and adoption has been legal in Argentina...or any Latin American country? Both are currently legal in at least a few states. Gay adoption has been legal for quite some time in many states (it might even be legal in the whole country...I'm not sure).

"and secondly Jelly, Terrence Howard WAS nominated for Best Actor in a Leading Role, he just didn't win. He was nominated for "Hustle & Flow""

I know this. I said he should have been nominated for best actor for his performance in Crash.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I saw Crash and liked it even though I was sure I wouldn't like it and knew that it was going to be mindnumbingly predictable. To me that's the hallmark of a great movie.

I'm not sure if I will ever see Brokeback Mountain. To me, it's way too contrived in order to advance an agenda. If it was based on a true story, I'd probably go see it.

Capote, on the other hand, is a movie I intend to see.

I'm totally with you on Crash. I thought it was going to be heavy handed and preachy, and I think it managed to stop just short of it. It basically took everything that people think during a given day and made the characters say it. I've spoken to a lot of people of a number of races who don't consider themselves racist, but had to admit that many things that were said were things that cross their minds more often then they'd like to admit. It's rare that a film tries to tackle a complex issue without jamming morality down your throat. There were some cliches to it but even they were done well. I have no problem with Crash getting an Oscar.

I would have been fine with Brokeback except that it seemed like the studio wanted to have it both ways. At times they'd try to push it like it wasn't a gay crusade film, and that it was just a love story about two people who just happened to be men. And then they'd hype it as "groundbreaking" and "controversial". It seemed like they thought they could use the gay angle as a gimic to get people talking about the movie, but then realized it backfired and the gay angle was all that people were talking about.

[ClintSquint]

Crash was a great movie.

[MoSpur]

I think Crash was a great movie. Just getting actors like Matt Dillon, Sandra Bullock, Don Cheadle, Terrence Howard, Ludacris, Larenz Tate, Brendan Fraser, Jennifer Esposito, Tony Danza, Ryan Phillippe, and so on to come together and do the job they did in itself is amazing. They didn't show too much of each of these actors to get tired of them like the way they did in Ocean's Eleven. These two movies are way different, but you have to admit that when a movie carries so many big names that it is hard to take it serious.

Crash was great and deserved to win.

[austinfan]

I haven't seen Crash, so I can't judge whether it deserved Best Picture or not, but I was rooting for Brokeback Mountain to win, primarily because of Heath Ledger's perf, which imo is going to go down as one of the classics in American film. (I knew he didn't stand a chance of winning against Philip Seymour Hoffman.) I don't think homophobia was the sole reason Brokeback lost, but I do think it played a part. But hey, BBM has good company: Goodfellas, Citizen Kane, Raging Bull, Streetcar Named Desire. All lost the race for Best Picture and all have stood the test of time pretty well. I'm hoping the same thing happens this time.

[Jekka]

Actually, if we are going to use the word 'steal', I would say Crash stole more from Magnolia.

I liked parts of Magnolia - the acting was really good.

Actually, anyone who likes Phillip Seymour Hoffman should see Magnolia if they haven't already.

[jcrod]

Crash was ok.

I thought Cinderalla Man was better, I don't like Russell Crow, but liked the movie.

Walk the line also was very well acted by Jaquin and Resse.

The one that suprised me was Hustle and Flow. Terence Howard was great in that movie and I can't stand rap.

[1Parker1]

Hotel Rwanda is my favorite movie made in the past ten years. It's criminal that it didn't win more awards, but I think its popularity will grow over time, like Shawshank.


:tu I'm still hung up on the fact that Don Cheadle didn't win Best Actor last year for that film...

[Jekka]

:tu I'm still hung up on the fact that John Cheadle didn't win Best Actor last year for that film...

Or Don Cheadle :)

[1Parker1]

Or Don Cheadle :)


:lmao My bad...I'm typing really fast in between doing actual work at work.

[Melmart1]

Don Cheadle is a highly underrated actor.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Pure utter BULLSHIT for reasons already stated. If that were true it would have NEVER been cast by a major studio, with major stars, nominated for an Oscar, and then all but considered the winner until Jack Nickleson said Crash and shocked everyone in the room. I didn't say EVERYONE in America is anti-gay Jelly, but you can't deny that there is prejudice, and a lot of it. Fine you believe what you will, I still say giving the oscar to "Brokeback" would have been a far too controvertial move at this point and that is why it didn't get it. Its politics, pure and simple.

" You don't believe me, check out the "gay adoption" and "gay marriage" threads in this forum and you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about."


I don't need to. I live here. I am American. I know Americans, I travel around quite a bit, and therefore have a far more accurate view than what one can glean from a message board based in one of the most conservative states in the U.S. I assume you are refering to me with that. Its funny because you have no idea from where I "glean" my views from. I grew up with Americans, all of highschool. I know a bit about American culture. In fact I'd be inclined to say I'm more American than I am Argentinian, influence wise. So don't think you can just dismiss my views as if I were talking out of my ass and no nothing of American culture.


As a whole, we are a country of extreme liberals, extreme conservatives, moderates and everything in between. But the people who make Academy award decisions are most definitely the libs. I do agree here, but even liberals have to take into account the reactions of the conservative side, that's what politics is all about.


And regarding the gay adoption and marriage thing, please tell me how long gay marriage and adoption has been legal in Argentina...or any Latin American country? Both are currently legal in at least a few states. Gay adoption has been legal for quite some time in many states (it might even be legal in the whole country...I'm not sure).
you completely missuderstood my point. You clearly were too busy feeling insulted by the fact that I said there is too much prejudice in America to analyse what I was saying. I don't believe it IS legal for gays to be married here in Argentina, nor is it legal for them to adopt, I don't think.

I do know however that as of March 1 this year the Argentinian senate is debating wether or not to pass a law that would make both those legal for homosexuals in Argentina. The project is called "el projecto de ley de union civil". Also, did you know that as of last year, Buenos Aires was proclaimed "Gay capital of the World" beating Rio de Janeiro?

Now I'm not saying there is no prejudice towards gay people over here, but there certainly is less in countries like Brasil and Argentina than there is in the US, thats for sure.

NOW, let me be perfectly clear, I did not mean for this to become a pissing contest between the States and Argentina, because clearly the US has the upper hand. I was mearly stating what I believed to be the reason "Brokeback" didn't win, seeing how it was indeed a better movie than crash.


I know this. I said he should have been nominated for best actor for his performance in Crash.
I loved Crash. And that was absolutely the BEST ensemble acting I've ever seen. Terrence Howard was absolutely brilliant (still can't believe he wasn't nominated in the best actor category). Sorry then, I missunderstood you, but judging by what you wrote, I think you can see how I made that mistake

[Jelly]

"Now I'm not saying there is no prejudice towards gay people over here, but there certainly is less in countries like Brasil and Argentina than there is in the US, thats for sure."

I don't know how you can possibly justify this remark. Care to elaborate?

btw, I have a friend from Peru who says gays are absolutely persecuted and treated so badly that no one dares come out of the closet and most are forced to move. (In fact, she says most - if they can afford to- move to the U.S. where they can be gay freely without harassment. well, now...how about that?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

"Now I'm not saying there is no prejudice towards gay people over here, but there certainly is less in countries like Brasil and Argentina than there is in the US, thats for sure."

I don't know how you can possibly justify this remark. Care to elaborate? Hell, I really don't know how I could explain. I know both cultures, I've lived in both countries. Americans are generally more homophobic than Brasilians or Argentinians.

For example, out of personal experience, here is a thing that happened to me when I first went to the US. Over here in Argentina we are used to greeting with a kiss on the cheek, even among men. I was in a friends house in Miami, and he introduced me to a friend of his, and I instinctively leaned over to greet him with a kiss on the cheek, and his remark was "what the hell? what are you, gay?" Now I know the dude does not represent the majority of Americans, and again I am in no way saying ALL Americans are this way, but it is certainly a good chunk of the population.

Over here we are a bit more open about things like that, and in Brasil even more.


btw, I have a friend from Peru who says gays are absolutely persecuted and treated so badly that no one dares come out of the closet and most are forced to move. (In fact, she says most - if they can afford to- move to the U.S. where they can be gay freely without harassment. well, now...how about that? that is Peru, I'm talking about Argentina and Brasil. When did I EVER mention Peru?

[Jelly]

and actually Manumania, I do have an idea of where you've developed some of your ideas about the U.S. If you recall, I once asked where you've lived and you listed about seven countries - from memory you have lived in South America, the U.K., maybe a few other Euro countries and Lybia (I think). The United States was not on your list (though I know you have at least visited). hahah. didn't think I'd remember that did you? :spin

In any case, my point was not so much about your not being American, but that you suggested I read the posts on this message board to "better" understand the American mindset, which you have to admit, is a ridiculous suggestion...especially to someone who freakin' lives here and hence, has immediate access to Americans of all stripes every day.

[MannyIsGod]

You want to see a good character montage, go rent Happy Endings. Lisa Kudrow is funny as hell in that movie.

[CharlieMac]

Yeah, I should probably check those out soon.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

and actually Manumania, I do have an idea of where you've developed some of your ideas about the U.S. If you recall, I once asked where you've lived and you listed about seven countries - from memory you have lived in South America, the U.K., maybe a few other Euro countries and Lybia (I think). The United States was not on your list (though I know you have at least visited). hahah. didn't think I'd remember that did you? :spin
What are you tryign to do? prove me wrong? I actually lived in Miami for like 3 months when I was like 10 http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif However, I went to an American Highschool from grades 1 - 12. A school made up of 95% americans, and 5% international students from various countries. Trust me, influence wise, I'm half American practically.


In any case, my point was not so much about your not being American, but that you suggested I read the posts on this message board to "better" understand the American mindset, which you have to admit, is a ridiculous suggestion...especially to someone who freakin' lives here and hence, has immediate access to Americans of all stripes every day.
You are right, I did suggest that, and that was ridiculous. However, you seem to think I said ALL Americans are prejudiced towards gay people, when in reality I simply stated there is much prejudice in America, and that is not the preposterous now, is it?

[Jelly]

"that is Peru, I'm talking about Argentina and Brasil. When did I EVER mention Peru?"
You didn't. That is why I started with "By the way" as in "I know this is not directly related"

As far as the men kissing as greeting thing, yes, you would make American men VERY uncomfortable with that. It is not in our culture for men to greet other men with kisses...unless they are gay. But because we have different ways of greeting people does not make us homophobes (although that guy you kissed may have been...who knows...)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

"that is Peru, I'm talking about Argentina and Brasil. When did I EVER mention Peru?"
You didn't. That is why I started with "By the way" as in "I know this is not directly related"

As far as the men kissing as greeting thing, yes, you would make American men VERY uncomfortable with that. It is not in our culture for men to greet other men with kisses...unless they are gay. But because we have different ways of greeting people does not make us homophobes (although that guy you kissed may have been...who knows...) Why would you be very uncomfortable with a kiss on the cheeck is you are not afraid of that person being gay? seriously now? I'm not talking about missunderstandings, this has happened to me quite a few times too. Its not an isolated event. Ofcourse I stop doing it after a while http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I didn't like all the reactions I was getting http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

I'd venture to say most American men are not comfortable when it comes to male affection. Perhaps that has nothing to do with homophobia, either way I find it a bit odd. This is not to say there is no one over here in Argentina who feels uncomfortable with male bonding, but I don't know, I suppose they aren't the majority

EDIT: Just to make it perfectly clear, when I say male affection or bonding, I simply mean a hug, or a kiss on the cheek. When it comes to homosexuals, there is plenty of people over here that don't feel comfortable even being around them.

[Jelly]

It's just a different culture Manumania. Men don't kiss each other! Ever! Anywhere! Unless they are gay....not that there's anything wrong with that.
There are other cultures where this is also not an acceptable greeting.

Now if you were really half American you would stop going around kissing everybody :lol In fact, many women would be uncomfortable with a kiss on the cheek from someone they just met and even women who are good friends rarely greet each other with kisses. We are not French for God's sake!! We are handshake people. Not touchy, feely, put your lips all over me just seconds after we meet types. Also, Americans tend to need more personal space during conversations than most other nationalities, so when conversing with an American try not to get in their face to much. Just a little tip from me to you. Good luck on your next trip to the U.S. and try not to get beat up
:lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's just a different culture Manumania. Men don't kiss each other! Ever! Anywhere! Unless they are gay....not that there's anything wrong with that.
There are other cultures where this is also not an acceptable greeting.

Now if you were really half American you would stop going around kissing everybody :lol In fact, many women would be uncomfortable with a kiss on the cheek from someone they just met and even women who are good friends rarely greet each other with kisses. We are not French for God's sake!! We are handshake people. Not touchy, feely, put your lips all over me just seconds after we meet types. Also, Americans tend to need more personal space during conversations than most other nationalities, so when conversing with an American try not to get in their face to much. Just a little tip from me to you. Good luck on your next trip to the U.S. and try not to get beat up
:lol trust me, I know all of that. I was talking about 14 years ago http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I know how Americans are. Besides Jelly, the kiss on the cheek I'm talking about, had nothing sexual about it, its just a greet. I don't see how anybody can be uncomfortable with a friendly greet, but you are right, its a different culture.

[danyel]

I've seen several of the nominated movies although I haven't seen brokeback mountain. I thought Crash just plained sucked for me, I didn't like it at all.

Things I didn't like about Crash:

- I felt Its a patronising movie, as If I wouldn't know that racism is still an issue in modern society.

- Its structure is really similar to Magnolia, which I believe was a better movie.

- Some scenes really bothered me, too corny, too cliched.

All in all I just think people is reading between the lines too much, its just an award, they voted the movie they liked the better and Crash won. Congrats.

They could have chosen a different movie if they didnt wanted to vote for Brokeback, whatever reason they had to, but they voted for Crash.

The ultimate movie about racism for me would be "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner".

[T-Pain]

This statement seems to contradict itself. Isn't calling two gay men 'flamers' a stereotype? So you basically used a stereotype to explain why a movie that seeks to explain the affects of stereotyping is better than a movie that seeks to do the same.

In other words, a movie about racial stereotypes>a movie about gay ones?


you got it

[SA210]

I missed this thread.

Crash was great, it is a very touching film. Well deserving of the Oscar.
And it does show what people really think.
Great film, Inspiring.

[TheTruth]

Matty's Top 5 Films of 2005 (in no particular order)

King Kong, A History of Violence, Munich, Cinderella Man, Batman

[MannyIsGod]

I keep meaning to add a History of Violence to my Netflix QuequewququuqueuqeuQ

[TheTruth]

do it. aragorn kicks ass.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ Aragon

I just added it. And moved it to the top of the list.

[Manuismysex]

I think that the issues of racism and and society's stereotypes is a very relatable subject to everyone...unlike gay cowboys. The cast and the acting was also superb. Crash was the underdog and they won it all, so go them!!

[ObiwanGinobili]

I watched Mean Creek the other night. top notch. I loved it. definatly 4 stars out of 5.

meanwhile that same night 150 miles away my mom watched History of Violence. She said it sucked. she wanted her rental $$ back. But I think I'll still put in my Netflix queue. Afterall - she told me Batman Begins was a great movie and it sucked ass.

[SA210]

I think that the issues of racism and and society's stereotypes is a very relatable subject to everyone...unlike gay cowboys. The cast and the acting was also superb. Crash was the underdog and they won it all, so go them!!
:tu

[MannyIsGod]

I watched Mean Creek the other night. top notch. I loved it. definatly 4 stars out of 5.

meanwhile that same night 150 miles away my mom watched History of Violence. She said it sucked. she wanted her rental $$ back. But I think I'll still put in my Netflix queue. Afterall - she told me Batman Begins was a great movie and it sucked ass.Godamn Mean Creek sucked too!

Its been awhile since I've seen it, but I remember distinticly not liking something about that movie. Probably the Culcan (sp?) (rhymes with vulcan) kid in there.

[MannyIsGod]

I think that the issues of racism and and society's stereotypes is a very relatable subject to everyone...unlike gay cowboys. The cast and the acting was also superb. Crash was the underdog and they won it all, so go them!!Which is exactly why I said it was very accessible. The Cat In The Hat is accessible too.

[Melmart1]

I think that the issues of racism and and society's stereotypes is a very relatable subject to everyone...unlike gay cowboys. The cast and the acting was also superb. Crash was the underdog and they won it all, so go them!!

So instead of ground-breaking material, you would rather go with the same tired old cliches? Because Crash has been done before, ad nauseum.

I understand the peeps who liked Crash for being a better story or better filmed, acted, whatever. But to argue that its message isnt as powerful or relevant as Crash at a time when gay marriage and adoption issues basically decided our last Presidential election seems ludicrous, IMHO.

[Manuismysex]

So instead of ground-breaking material, you would rather go with the same tired old cliches? Because Crash has been done before, ad nauseum.

I understand the peeps who liked Crash for being a better story or better filmed, acted, whatever. But to argue that its message isnt as powerful or relevant as Crash at a time when gay marriage and adoption issues basically decided our last Presidential election seems ludicrous, IMHO.

I see the point you're making. It's easy to turn a blind eye to racism, because we all figure that it is water under the bridge. We need to notice that it's still prevalent today. Personally, I felt close to the movie because I know what it feels like to be a minority in this country, especially in these time where middle-easterners are a little less than welcome. I like the underlying theme that we're all brothers and sisters in the world and we should act like it. It's a theme that never gets old to me.

[SA210]

^^^ I would have to agree. It's close to home for me.

[ALVAREZ6]

Crash is a great movie, that cop was the man.


Cop: May I ask your name?

Secretary: This is Shaniqua Johnson.

Cop: Shaniqua, a big fuckin surprise that is.

[Manuismysex]

yeah and

"hey mom, I'm fucking a white girl, can I call later?"