Spurs Consider Buying MLB Team

[3rdCoast]

http://www.ksat.com/sports/7777178/detail.html

[Horry For 3!]

Sources close to the negotiations said the Spurs also plan to visit with the Oakland A's and Minnesota Twins to explore the possibility of relocation.
Nice, Huston Street in SA :smokin

[timvp]

If you are a Spurs fan, you better hope that another pro team doesn't come to San Antonio. If you think Holt is cheap now, imagine what happens when he actually has competition in this small market.

[rayray2k8]

interesting...

[Sec24Row7]

Nelson Wolff...

Guy seriously needs to give it a rest.

He's a county judge.

He should be deciding who's property a goat herd is on instead of headline grabbing.

Freaking Disaster of a man.

[DannyT]

I like nelson, but i love my city.
you dont think this would open the doors to other things that would help expand san antonios market. I mean I know h town is pretty much in the same boat as us and they have all three teams but i would love to see
san anton step up and bring a franchise to the home team. but i do worry that it would be a losin team. but as far as us attending i mean look at the love we showed N.O. 65 thousand a game.... and sometimmes competition is good, right?

[timvp]

San Antonio can barely support the Spurs.

[DannyT]

so did all of you have the same concerns over the saints coming to town

[Lonestar]

I've never believed that SA is ready for a second pro team but if we had to have one then I would much rather it be a football team. Far fewer games and much more interest from fans.

[midgetonadonkey]

I like the fact that SA is a one team city. It makes the Spurs mean more to everyone here.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

An MLB team in SA? How much coverage and attention are they going to get during the first half of the season when it overlaps with a Spurs playoff run?

[Solid D]

If MLB came to South Texas and it wasn't too hot to watch the games in August (retractable roof), people would have to get out of their houses, post less on websites, watch QVC and KWEX less, and quit playing lottery so much. There are a lot of transplants from other Big League cities who might support baseball here. It would be a stretch, though.

[DannyT]

I like the fact that SA is a one team city. It makes the Spurs mean more to everyone here.
Now this i do like, i do believe this is true and i never looked at it this way.....maybe it is what keeps us sooo loyal to the cause

[batman2883]

I would never cheer for any other team but the braves

[Slinkyman]

you guys are thinking short term when you need to think long term, what happens when tim, manu and pop retire? The spurs aren't going to be great forever and it would be nice to have a MLB team when the spurs are a lottery team.

[gameFACE]

Leo Gomez of Spurs entertainment will be on 760 at 4:30pm

[Rescueone]

I rather have a football team here instead of Baseball. Baseball has too many games to worry about selling out. I can't see 60,000 to 70,000 showing up day in and night out for Baseball in San Antonio. Some games start early 1 P.M and late during the week. People jobs and their employers will stand in the way of afternoon games. Night games sometimes go extra innings and the thought of sleeping will keep many away. Besides, the Missions can't sell out Wolf Stadium. MLB will not work in San Antonio. A vote on what the people want, either Baseball or Football as the next Pro sport for San Antonio should come up for vote to the citizens before shoving something we don't want. I bet the majority would say football over Baseball.

[Mixability]

I like the fact that SA is a one team city. It makes the Spurs mean more to everyone here.

:tu

and baseballs boring.

[Mixability]

it would be nice to have a MLB team when the spurs are a lottery team.

bandwaggoner.

[DannyT]

hahahaaaaa
dudes not a wagon hopper
actualy he had a pretty good point, you know if you are true to yourself that we wont reign for ever....but any how it would most def be football over baseball yes!!!!!
but take what we can get right....PGA, Soccer, all that

[MoSpur]

I would like it. This would be fun. I've been to different baseball stadiums to watch different teams and each time has been very fun. Its not just the game itself, its the whole experience.

[Rescueone]

NOPE!, They can keep the PGA, Soccer, NHL, Lacrosse and Nascar . It's FOOTBALL or NOTHING for me!

[MoSpur]

Its something to do in the summer when there is no Spurs and no football. I was hoping for the Saints, but faced reality when Paul Taglibue (spelled correctly?) pretty much said SA wasn't good enough to host a team here. So why not baseball?

[DannyT]

i agree i went ou to turner stadium back in the day and it was a cool thing to do ...we didnt stay the whole game....but after the 7th we were tanked

[GoSpurs21]

San Antonio can barely support the Spurs.no way the citizens could even pony up for a major league stadium, much less the season tickets.

[easjer]

Well, RC and Pop, if they are doing their jobs properly, are aware that this group of players will not always be able to play at this level and will someday retire. That's why they are prepping picks overseas, such as Ian Mahinmi. Folks that are developing on someone else's dime, and will be able to come over here and produce fairly quickly. They are also fairly good at signing vets who want a winning system, and Parker will be around after Duncan and after Ginobli.

This will not be a Bulls like meltdown after Duncan retires. The front office is smart enough to be looking ahead and taking steps to be contenders (if not champions) in ten years as well as now. That's not to say that there is not going to be a drop off in performance, but it can be minimized.

People in San Antonio were fans for 26 years of heartbreak before they were fans of the champs. A big part of that is because they were the only thing going, and that brought more emotional investment. Houston experiences a severe drop off at the end of the season when the Astros start up, because Houston isn't a team with any real potential right now. When the Texans first came the Astros experienced a decline, because the crowds go where the interest is.

I do not think it is in the best interest of the city to add another professional sports team, particularly one that has such a long season, and so many series against the big teams.

[50 cent]

Hell, the metroplex can't even support the Rangers. How the hell does SA expect to sell out a 45,000 stadium 81 nights a year.

:td

[Obstructed_View]

So if the Spurs own the MLB team, do both teams go when the Spurs relocate?

[Peter]

Hell, the metroplex can't even support the Rangers. How the hell does SA expect to sell out a 45,000 stadium 81 nights a year.

:td


You doubt the greatness that is San Antonio de Bexar?

[Despot]

hahahaaaaa
dudes not a wagon hopper
actualy he had a pretty good point, you know if you are true to yourself that we wont reign for ever....but any how it would most def be football over baseball yes!!!!!
but take what we can get right....PGA, Soccer, all that

I believe that is the sentiment the city has had for quite awhile, but it has been made very clear that as long as Tags is commisioner, SA will not let a franchise be placed here. So, might as well go for baseball.


I rather have a football team here instead of Baseball. Baseball has too many games to worry about selling out.

No Baseball teams sell out, so don't worry about it, just sell as many as you can.


I can't see 60,000 to 70,000 showing up day in and night out for Baseball in San Antonio.

Not even the Yankees can dream about filling those numbers.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance



Some games start early 1 P.M and late during the week. People jobs and their employers will stand in the way of afternoon games. Night games sometimes go extra innings and the thought of sleeping will keep many away.

And the people in SA are the only ones that have the problems that come with work?


Besides, the Missions can't sell out Wolf Stadium. MLB will not work in San Antonio.

You got me there, the missions drew 272,000 fans last year. Not too shabby though.
http://www.ballparkdigest.com/features/attendance_by_team_2005.html


A vote on what the people want, either Baseball or Football as the next Pro sport for San Antonio should come up for vote to the citizens before shoving something we don't want. I bet the majority would say football over Baseball.

Vote on what people want? It's a business, they have every right to try to come here if they want. I'm sure most people do want football over baseball, but again, unless the CFL decides to come here, if you want to cheer for a local football team, better get used to cheering for the High school teams. Just because you don't want a baseball team here, don't assume that others don't, and why should you choose for them? If you're not interested, don't go.
And the city has a good tax situation set up for this kind of stuff, very little impact is felt to local citizens, and for that, yes, I do think they still have a vote.

Sorry I went off, just that I always hear these same excuses. And they are not always valid. My only concern is the Spurs, as long as they are contenders, or at least a playoff team, very little revenue or excitement lost. However, when we become a lottery team is when we should worry.

[Obstructed_View]

You doubt the greatness that is San Antonio de Bexar?
Personally, I'd hate to see the city face the embarassing prospect of failure of a team just due to impatience. San Antonio is growing by leaps and bounds. I'm not sure why there's such a big rush. Keeping the Spurs atop the best sports teams list will make San Antonio a very attractive location over the next 10 to 20 years as the economy grows.

[Peter]

It makes sense for the Spurs to get their fingers in the pie.

Anyways, the team doesn't strike me as exactly milking 3 titles in the last 7 seasons for all they're worth. I'd hate to see how'd they fare if they ever had a couple of losing seasons in a row.

As for SA, if it was going to be able to support two pro franchises I would expect a NFL franchise to be the other one, not MLB. I guess the TV revenue share is quite lucrative, for I couldn't imagine that a team would fare that well at the gate with 81 home games through a South Texas summer (which lasts about from March to November). NFL means getting out 50,000+ on average to 8 home games. Definitely a lot more feasible than trying to pull 20,000 on average to 81.

Finally, if a MLB franchise has trouble in Miami, Oakland, or Minneapolis-St.Paul, how exactly is it supposed to thrive in SA?

[Obstructed_View]

... it has been made very clear that as long as Tags is commisioner, SA will not let a franchise be placed here. So, might as well go for baseball.
Did the commissioner actually make a statement to that effect, or are there possibly practical reasons that he doesn't want to poison San Antonio as a potential future location by putting a team in too soon? I can hardly imagine a commissioner of a sport insulting a city in such a way, especially when he actually allowed them to have an NFL franchise for part of a season.

[Holt's Cat]

If you are a Spurs fan, you better hope that another pro team doesn't come to San Antonio. If you think Holt is cheap now, imagine what happens when he actually has competition in this small market.

So long, Fancy Feast.

http://www.ottophoto.com/gallery/Cat.jpg

[gameFACE]

From tkt 760 today: Basically Leo Gomez said that they (Spurs) have started a "sincere" effort to study viability of the MLB in SA. Doesn't know if it is viable yet but if it comes they want it to be successful. (i.e. they want a piece of the pie if it is viable)

[timvp]

A baseball team here would bomb. In fact, the next time the Spurs are a lottery team, San Antonio wouldn't fill up 50% of the SBC/AT&T Center.

[Peter]

A baseball team here would bomb. In fact, the next time the Spurs are a lottery team, San Antonio wouldn't fill up 50% of the SBC/AT&T Center.


1996-97 comes to mind. The Spurs at least had a DRob return and a high lottery pick to look forward to.

[kskonn]

I mean I know h town is pretty much in the same boat as us and they have all three teams but i would love to see
san anton step up and bring a franchise to the home team. but i do worry that it would be a losin team. but as far as us attending i mean look at the love we showed N.O. 65 thousand a game.... and sometimmes competition is good, right?

Houston is much larger than san Antonio.. and has more of the economy to support sports franchises.




no way the citizens could even pony up for a major league stadium, much less the season tickets.

they are actually proposing to extend the Hotel and Tourism Tax, not add a tax for the citizens to pay.

besides part of the attraction about baseball is generally the ticket prices, great for families who can't afford 30 bucks a ticke to a spurs game(when they are even available).

[Peter]

The problem for the Spurs is that the sponsorship, season tix, and suite $ will be hit. As long as the Spurs are a contender, that shouldn't be a big problem, but once they start losing, look out.

[kskonn]

A baseball team here would bomb. In fact, the next time the Spurs are a lottery team, San Antonio wouldn't fill up 50% of the SBC/AT&T Center.


I agree.


Even when they were good and not winning championships, the dome/sbc center was not filled. Now that they are winning all of my customers want access to my tickets no matter what day of the week the game is. My customers used to call me and say" if you have all 4 tickets availaible for a saturday game I will go." not anymore.

But then again the lakers can't sell half of there stadium out.

If the spurs were smart they would do like the cowboys did back in the early 90's, you had to purchase multiple season, season tickets to sit in certain sections. They sold them out because nobody wanted to miss out on a superbowl title.

[SequSpur]

Leave the baseball discussion to baseball fans.

Comparing a minor league baseball team to the MLB is like comparing the WNBA to the NBA. It isn't even close.

I have been to more MLB games > than 200 miles away in the past 5 years than I have been to the Missions.

They aren't trying to sell out. Baseball teams get money from attendance, TV, concessions, parking, apparel, collectibles, sponsorships etc. etc.... The money is damn near guaranteed.

Teams are not doing well because their stadium deals fucking blow.... They probably don't give a rats ass if the place is half full for games. They understand there are 81 got damn games in a season.

Comparing the NBA to MLB is stupid as well, two totally different business models and arrangements.

MLB will do fine as long as the stadium deal supports it.

[Peter]

Right, those teams (Marlins, A's & Twins) are shopping for the best cornholing a city is willing to offer.

[ShoogarBear]

So long, Fancy Feast.


:lmao

Seriously, my guess is that an MLB team requires less local high-income support than an NFL team, but that the local intrinsic support for baseball as a sport is way less than for football.

My guess is that it also provides serious competition for the wallet of Spurs fans. The fact that the Spurs are involved to me says that either:
1) much smarter economic analysts than me have figured it will work, or
2) they have figured that it won't work, and the easiest way to prevent it is to have the Spurs in control of it.

[Despot]

Did the commissioner actually make a statement to that effect, or are there possibly practical reasons that he doesn't want to poison San Antonio as a potential future location by putting a team in too soon? I can hardly imagine a commissioner of a sport insulting a city in such a way, especially when he actually allowed them to have an NFL franchise for part of a season.

He made several backhanded comments about SA. I'm not sure why he dislikes SA, maybe he had some bad Guacamole here. Maybe it's because we were a nuisance in his side with the Saints deal, maybe he thinks we can't support it. He has also put the hammer down and only allowed 3 games here, while LA's replacement city had horrible ticket sales, and he would rather have the games there than here next year also.

[kskonn]

Right, those teams (Marlins, A's & Twins) are shopping for the best cornholing a city is willing to offer.


That is true.


I personally think that a baseball team would bring in a lot of fans that are not really spurs fans or even basketball fans. As stated by segu most current teams could care less about promoting the team to fill the stadium because they don't make jack shit off of people being present.

the problem would lie in the amount of luxury boxes sold, However most corporations are going to purchase both the spurs and the alleged teams boxes since it is not really that much money for a company like At&t or WAMU. etc...

[kskonn]

Hell, the metroplex can't even support the Rangers. How the hell does SA expect to sell out a 45,000 stadium 81 nights a year.

:td



they can support the rangers, by evidence that they are still there. However they happen to be the only team without a winning record in the Metroplex. Who would you buy tickets for?

[DannyT]

[QUOTE=kskonn]Houston is much larger than san Antonio.. and has more of the economy to support sports franchises.



i was talkin bout there lack of mrket value...they always get brushed off just like we do when we when titles

[Mark in Austin]

The Spurs are damn smart to line up as owners. If it looks like the stadium is going to happen, then they need to do everything that they possibly can to make sure they minimize the extent to which they are in direct competition w/ the MLB team for sponsorships, seating, etc. If you own both teams, then you can at least have a coordinated strategy to divvy up the limited pie, cross market, etc. instead of busting your ass to compete with another ownership group for revenue from corporate sponsors, season tix, etc.

[timvp]

The Spurs are damn smart to line up as owners. If it looks like the stadium is going to happen, then they need to do everything that they possibly can to make sure they minimize the extent to which they are in direct competition w/ the MLB team for sponsorships, seating, etc. If you own both teams, then you can at least have a coordinated strategy to divvy up the limited pie, cross market, etc. instead of busting your ass to compete with another ownership group for revenue from corporate sponsors, season tix, etc.

:tu :tu

[SequSpur]

Basketball and Baseball are two totally different sports. I don't understand how a baseball game affects a basketball game or vice versa?

If I buy a ticket to a Spurs game, does that mean I am choosing over a baseball game?

Uhhhhh... I don't get you all's rationale except for maybe you aren't a baseball fan and your pulling straws.

I played baseball/softball my whole life and I am not drawing the connection between basketball and baseball.

The SBC Center is filled with people who live North of 1604 now anyway, maybe the community needs something a little cheaper.

[SequSpur]

Professional sports mostly draw from the big sponsors anyway, they aren't going after Busseys flea market.

Bud, Pepsi, Coke, etc. can sponsor every sporting team in the nation.

Again, pulling straws.

[Peter]

Professional sports mostly draw from the big sponsors anyway, they aren't going after Busseys flea market.

Bud, Pepsi, Coke, etc. can sponsor every sporting team in the nation.

Again, pulling straws.

Perhaps there are a limited number of such sponsors in the market with a limit amount of $ for sponsorships and season tix/suite packages?

[timvp]

This conversation is over Sequ's head.

User Error.

[DannyT]

[QUOTE=SequSpur]Leave the baseball discussion to baseball fans.

They aren't trying to sell out. Baseball teams get money from attendance, TV, concessions, parking, apparel, collectibles, sponsorships etc. etc.... The money is damn near guaranteed.

Teams are not doing well because their stadium deals fucking blow.... They probably don't give a rats ass if the place is half full for games. They understand there are 81 got damn games in a season.

QUOTE]


someones brought the fire to the convo.....i love passion

[SequSpur]

Perhaps there are a limited number of such sponsors in the market with a limit amount of $ for sponsorships and season tix/suite packages?

There are enough healthcare pharmaceutical companies within 50 miles that could purchase every suite available in a new stadium.

That's just healthcare....

What about other businesses? As long as there is perks, they are going to sell the suites....

They (Companies) need them for marketing purposes (Tax writeoffs).

[SequSpur]

This conversation is over Sequ's head.

User Error.

Leave the baseball talk to real fans.

:fro

[ShoogarBear]

Sequ, just look at this board as an example.

It's mostly a Spurs board, but a significant fraction of them follow/go to baseball games. These aren't two exclusive populations.

Yeah, the seasons don't overlap that much, but unless you have unlimited disposable income and time, you'd have to make some choices.

How many times have you missed a Spurs game to go candlepinning?

[SequSpur]

Sequ, just look at this board as an example.

It's mostly a Spurs board, but a significant fraction of them follow/go to baseball games. These aren't two exclusive populations.

Yeah, the seasons don't overlap that much, but unless you have unlimited disposable income and time, you'd have to make some choices.

How many times have you missed a Spurs game to go candlepinning?

Less than .75% of the city and surrounding areas population attends a Spurs basketball game.

Next argument.

[ShoogarBear]

Less than .75% of the city and surrounding areas population attends a Spurs basketball game.

Next argument.

At one time? Yeah, but that's not the question.

The questions are:
-how many different people go to a Spurs game over the course of a year.
-how many of those people are also in the pool of people who would go baseball games
-how much money are they willing to spend combined on Spurs and baseball
-what fraction they are willing to spend on Spurs vs. baseball

[SequSpur]

At one time? Yeah, but that's not the question.

The questions are:
-how many different people go to a Spurs game over the course of a year.
-how many of those people are also in the pool of people who would go baseball games
-how much money are they willing to spend combined on Spurs and baseball
-what fraction they are willing to spend on Spurs vs. baseball

What is the average Spurs ticket below Club 200? About $100?? I sat in the 11th row against Dallas and the face value was $190. That's insane.

The Spurs have eliminated 98-99% of the poplulation by:

1. Ticket prices
2. Limited availability (18.5K attendance)
3. Costs of parking
4. Costs of concessions
5. Costs of merchandise

Baseball is going to get the dollar from a totally different fan, source, sponsorship base, etc. Will there be overlap? Oh hell yeah... But the overlap is going to come from the Charter Seats.

The average Joe is going to go to a baseball game. That is where his dollar is best used.

[ShoogarBear]

I agree the per game cost is lower for baseball, but you also have twice as many game and a stadium about 2.5 times bigger. So I'm not sure that the amount PER YEAR you're asking isn't close or more than basketball.

I don't agree that the target fan populations are that different. Sure you have some hard core one-sport fans, but they're in the minority. I don't kow any references, but I'm sure that somebody somewhere has studied this. All I know is that people make a big deal about how it's easier to be supported in a single-team market.

[Buddy Holly]

MLB in SA, if it happens, wouldn't start play until 2010 at the very least.

That's a lot of time. The structure of San Antonio will be completely different both socioeconomically and population wise.

If the AT&T/BellSouth merger goes through, that is incredibly huge for this city.

And guess what, the Marlins say San Antonio is a ready market, the Spurs now feel it is, what more do some of you nancy boys need?

[Peter]

Unless the metro area doubles its corporate base and population in 4 years, not a chance.

[SequSpur]

I think the Spurs are selling to a Ruth Chris type crowd now. I know they have some cheaper tickets available, but 2 people going to a Spurs game is going to run close to a hundred/game just to walk in.

I have a few friends that used to go to the Spurs all the time when they were in the dome, but have never been in the SBC Center.

I had season tickets for 7 years. It was costing me between $900-$1200/yr for 2 tickets. Now, for the same type seat, its between $2200-$2800/yr for 2 tickets. So hence to say, I am no longer a season ticket holder. Priced out.

I went to a Rangers/Orioles series back in August and paid less than $100 for four tickets to two games.

Technically, the hotel, meals and tickets for four for 2 games would've been almost the same as if we all attended a Spurs game.

Baseball to me appeals more to the market in San Antonio now.

[Buddy Holly]

Unless the metro area doubles its corporate base and population in 4 years, not a chance.

Why does it need to double, MB?

Because you said?

Look at the markets the Marlins are looking at for relocation:

Portland
Las Vegas
Norfolk
Charlotte

Portland is larger by about 100,000 people. However, MSA San Antonio is growing faster.
Las Vegas is a smaller metro with a growth rate that is slowly down.
Norfolk. Well, San Antonio lapped Norfolk as of 2000 (now: 1.9 vs 1.6 2000: 1.5 vs 1.5)
Charlotte. They've already said they can't support three teams.

[Peter]

Why is SA a lock for a successful MLB franchise, because you said?

[Peter]

The only way it's going to make sense for a MLB to relocate to SA is to get a sweetheart stadium deal. It won't be anything that the ghost of CA Stubbs won't be able to defeat in his sleep.

[Buddy Holly]

Why is SA a lock for a successful MLB franchise, because you said?

Yeah, quote me. Where did I say they would be successful.

I never did and I never will. Not until we get a team here and a season going,

It is either does well or it doesn't.

In baseball, doing well doesn't mean selling out a 47,000 seat stadium 81 times or having a population of 4 million or whatever stupid shit you deem necessary.

[SequSpur]

Why is SA a lock for a successful MLB franchise, because you said?

Is success measurable?

As I said before, the MLB, just like the NBA, just like NFL has guaranteed revenue not based on attendance.

Is success winning? Is success breaking even? Is success managing under a cap?

What is success in sports?

As long as their is a place to play, these owners will be successful. The money is guaranteed. Their revenue streams are so stacked and creative, they will be bankrolling for along time.

[exstatic]

so did all of you have the same concerns over the saints coming to town
The NFL plays 8 home games. MLB plays 81. This isn't even apples and oranges, it's like apples and horses, or apples and ceiling tiles.

Baseball franchises require a higher local income level than any of the other of the 4 major sports. SA will be ready in about 30 years.

[SequSpur]

The only way it's going to make sense for a MLB to relocate to SA is to get a sweetheart stadium deal. It won't be anything that the ghost of CA Stubbs won't be able to defeat in his sleep.

If a team gets the same deal as the Spurs, they are going to make money/break even.

[SequSpur]

The NFL plays 8 home games. MLB plays 81. This isn't even apples and oranges, it's like apples and horses, or apples and ceiling tiles.

Baseball franchises require a higher local income level than any of the other of the 4 major sports. SA will be ready in about 30 years.

Come over to my house and I'll take you on a short 15 minute drive and show you 2000+ brand new houses priced at >$200,000.

And no I don't live in Stone Oak.

[Buddy Holly]

The NFL plays 8 home games. MLB plays 81.

Yeah, and no MLB team sells out all 81. None.

The closest percentage wise is the Cubs at 38,000.


Baseball franchises require a higher local income level than any of the other of the 4 major sports.

When they offer the cheapest tickets??? :lol

[Peter]

Yeah, it doesn't mean drawing 47K a night. It means being able to pull 17K.

If the market isn't there, both in terms of population as well as in regards to the corporate base, it isn't going to work. Those teams are shopping for a community stupid enough to give them a gravy train. At some point the worth of having a team is going to be deemed less than what the community will be asked to put up. You don't have the allure of having the 1st pro franchise in the area to put it on the map as a carrot.

Maybe you try the angle that a NFL ready stadium which the MLB franchise would play in would make sense; would give the city the chance to land a NFL franchise in a couple of years. Of course, it's not like SA hasn't heard the 'build it and they will come' pitch before.

[SequSpur]

A sidenote... ESPN offered the PGA Tour 500 mill just to air a few tourneys a year guaranteeing a matchup of Mickelson and Woods on Thursday and Friday coverage....

The PGA tour turned it down.... there is alot of money out there that is being passed around....

They could play in an empty stadium if needed.

[ShoogarBear]

As I said before, the MLB, just like the NBA, just like NFL has guaranteed revenue not based on attendance.

Are you kidding me? MLB has a feudal system. It is by far the most have vs. have-not structure in U.S. sports.

Even if SA could support a team on a honeymoon basis for oh, 3-4 years (and I'm not saying it can), how long would they support a team that, under the current strucutre, will never have a chance of being successful on the field?

[SequSpur]

MB, I lived in Denver the first 3 years the Rockies played. They played in Mile High Stadium before it was torn down.

They averaged about 25K during the week and 60K+ on Frid, Sat, Sun. They had very creative ticket marketing, even sections with $1 tickets with cheap beer and hot dog prices..... They were killing it. And that was in a football stadium.

[exstatic]

Why does it need to double, MB?

Because you said?

Look at the markets the Marlins are looking at for relocation:

Portland
Las Vegas
Norfolk
Charlotte

Portland is larger by about 100,000 people. However, MSA San Antonio is growing faster.
Las Vegas is a smaller metro with a growth rate that is slowly down.
Norfolk. Well, San Antonio lapped Norfolk as of 2000 (now: 1.9 vs 1.6 2000: 1.5 vs 1.5)
Charlotte. They've already said they can't support three teams.


I'll let you in on a little secret. There are too many MLB teams. They've already tried to "contract" once. Just because they are looking to move a team doesn't mean there is an appropriate market to move one to. They are looking for a stadium. They will move a team anywhere where the populace is foolish enough to vote for one and then watch a team struggle for 10 years.

A fiscally conservative owner in basketball can compete for a championship. A fiscally conservative owner in baseball can struggle to be a wildcard team, at best.

[Peter]

MB, I lived in Denver the first 3 years the Rockies played. They played in Mile High Stadium before it was torn down.

They averaged about 25K during the week and 60K+ on Frid, Sat, Sun. They had very creative ticket marketing, even sections with $1 tickets with cheap beer and hot dog prices..... They were killing it. And that was in a football stadium.


Yeah, that's Denver.

[Buddy Holly]

Yeah, it doesn't mean drawing 47K a night. It means being able to pull 17K.[quote]

Oh but San Antonio doesn't have the extra 17,000. They just have 18,797 people who can afford pro sports tickets. :lol

[quote]If the market isn't there, both in terms of population as well as in regards to the corporate base, it isn't going to work.

Explain to me how San Antonio's corporate base isn't there?

It > Portland, Las Vegas, and Norfolk.


Those teams are shopping for a community stupid enough to give them a gravy train.

There shopping for a stadium, that's not secret. That's what pro sports teams do when they can't get one from the city they currently call home. Nothing new Marcus.

[Peter]

What teams in other pro leagues are currently in Vegas and Norfolk?

[SequSpur]

Are you kidding me? MLB has a feudal system. It is by far the most have vs. have-not structure in U.S. sports.

Even if SA could support a team on a honeymoon basis for oh, 3-4 year (and I'm not saying it can), how long would they support a team that, under the current strucutre, will never have a chance of being successful on the field?

What is success? Who says they can't win? Didn't the Florida Marlins win 2 championships? They sure didn't have the 100+ mill payroll NY had.

The revenue is there bro. Don't let the owners fool you.

[Peter]

Why are they moving out of Miami?

[Buddy Holly]

What teams in other pro leagues are currently in Vegas and Norfolk?

You're right. They have the 17k with enough money to spend on tickets.

You're right. I'm sorry.

[Buddy Holly]

Why are they moving out of Miami?

STADIUM PROBLEMS.

The same reason the Sonics said they'd look at leaving, the same reasons the Maloofs want to move to Vegas, the same reasons the Spurs said they'd leave, the same reason the Rams and Raiders left, the same reason... oh you get it.

That's modern american sports.

[Peter]

You're right. They have the 17k with enough money to spend on tickets.

You're right. I'm sorry.


Nah, they don't have an existing franchise to deal with. There's the allure of having their 1st pro teams.

[Peter]

STADIUM PROBLEMS.

The same reason the Sonics said they'd look at leaving, the same reasons the Maloofs want to move to Vegas, the same reasons the Spurs said they'd leave, the same reason the Rams and Raiders left, the same reason... oh you get it.

That's modern american sports.


So they need a new stadium and are using SA.

[Buddy Holly]

Nah, they don't have an existing franchise to deal with. There's the allure of having their 1st pro teams.

An allure?

Who gives a shit.

What about an allure of a second professional team?

That's a pretty nice allure.

You know what, I like that word, allure.

[SequSpur]

I'll let you in on a little secret. There are too many MLB teams. They've already tried to "contract" once. Just because they are looking to move a team doesn't mean there is an appropriate market to move one to. They are looking for a stadium. They will move a team anywhere where the populace is foolish enough to vote for one and then watch a team struggle for 10 years.

A fiscally conservative owner in basketball can compete for a championship. A fiscally conservative owner in baseball can struggle to be a wildcard team, at best.


They are going to change the playoff format in the next few years anyway. Its going to become more NBA oriented, etc....

Leaving the Dodgers, Mets, Reds, Yankees, etc.. out of the playoffs is going to kill their revenue. They are taking note that there are to many teams.

Losing teams always have shitty attendance, but ESPN, FOX and the major networks are always going to donate their money to professional sports....

Every time you pay that Time Warner/DirectTV bill.... you are donating to the capitated money allotted to each Sport. They thank you for your donation every day. :fro

[SequSpur]

Why are they moving out of Miami?

Have you been to South Florida? They don't give away real estate like they do in San Antonio.

[Buddy Holly]

So they need a new stadium and are using SA.

Using?

How so? It's not like Miami said no to any new stadiums. Hell the Marlins have tried talking to TWO cities within the Miami MSA Homestead and Hialeah. Nothing can be worked out.

It's not a matter of threat but a matter of the simple fact that they can't work out an agreement.

San Antonio isn't some pawn in a game.

[SequSpur]

Well lets say they decide to come here.......

Retractable Stadium?

Dome?

Open Field?

All I know is that from May-Nov, its fuckin hot here. I am all for a little retractable sheyitt.

[Peter]

An allure?

Who gives a shit.

What about an allure of a second professional team?

That's a pretty nice allure.

You know what, I like that word, allure.


Well, it's allure plus not having and existing franchise in a small market.

[Peter]

Have you been to South Florida? They don't give away real estate like they do in San Antonio.


That's part of the point.

[Peter]

Using?

How so? It's not like Miami said no to any new stadiums. Hell the Marlins have tried talking to TWO cities within the Miami MSA Homestead and Hialeah. Nothing can be worked out.

It's not a matter of threat but a matter of the simple fact that they can't work out an agreement.

San Antonio isn't some pawn in a game.


Sure SA is a pawn. If not to get Miami to cough up a better deal then for some other market to do so.

When are the Saints coming back?

[Buddy Holly]

Well, it's allure plus not having and existing franchise in a small market.

Man, that phrase, small market, sure gets thrown around a lot.

San Antonio is a mid-size market, not small. Baton Rouge is small. McAllen is small. Tulsa is small.

[Peter]

Well lets say they decide to come here.......

Retractable Stadium?

Dome?

Open Field?

All I know is that from May-Nov, its fuckin hot here. I am all for a little retractable sheyitt.


Yep, more expense.

[Peter]

Man, that phrase, small market, sure gets thrown around a lot.

San Antonio is a mid-size market, not small. Baton Rouge is small. McAllen is small. Tulsa is small.


Small by pro league standards.

[Mark in Austin]

What is the average Spurs ticket below Club 200? About $100?? I sat in the 11th row against Dallas and the face value was $190. That's insane.

The average Joe is going to go to a baseball game. That is where his dollar is best used.

Sequ,

I agree that the average joe will attend MLB games more often than Spurs games, and that on a per game basis, MLB games will be more affordable than Spurs games for the average fan. And that's a good thing. However, what makes a team money isn't the average fan seating. It is luxury boxes and club seats. When teams talk about needing a new facility to "maximize potential revenue streams" they're mainly talking about lux boxes and club seating - things that the average fan can't afford to buy a season at a time.

It is this type of corporate revenue that would put the Spurs in direct competition with a MLB team - and that is why it would make sense for the Spurs to own the MLB team - so that instead of competeing for corporate revenue, they could have s marketing strategy to share it.

For Spurs ownership, buying and owning the MLB franchise is the only way to ensure that they have a consistent level of corporate support year in and year out. If the County is actually serious about moving forward with this, you can bet the Spurs will get serious about it too - and since Florida's ownership group is not interested in selling, if I remember correctly, that means you might see two competing relocation efforts - one by the Marlins to come here and one by the Spurs ownersip group to bring in a team they can own and control revenue from. THAT would be interesting.

[Peter]

Also, the allure of having a 2nd pro team is much less in SA than having a 1st pro team in another market, especially when that 2nd team would be in the MLB.

[SequSpur]

That's part of the point.

Exactly, so why not move the team here when you can get all revenue and a stadium and probably the same attendance?

They probably will have to pay a rental fee to the county, something around a million.

Don't underestimate the guaranteed revenue that is already in place for years to come without attendance.

This is exactly why the Spurs are interested.

[Buddy Holly]

Sure SA is a pawn. If not to get Miami to cough up a better deal then for some other market to do so.

What better deal? A deal can't be worked on.

The threat, if there was one, to Miami is the Marlins being granted to search for relocation sites. Now the Marlins are talking about coming back to see the city again. They've past any post of just threating Miami into a better deal.

Read up on the what the problems with the Marlins and Miami are instead of barf up the same shit over and over.


When are the Saints coming back?

When Tags or Jerry Jones die.

[Peter]

Exactly, so why not move the team here when you can get all revenue and a stadium and probably the same attendance?

They probably will have to pay a rental fee to the county, something around a million.

Don't underestimate the guaranteed revenue that is already in place for years to come without attendance.

This is exactly why the Spurs are interested.


Nah, it speaks to why Miami currently has a franchise in each of the major pro leagues and SA only has one.

[Buddy Holly]

Yep, more expense.

300 million via hotel-motel users and another 100 million from the Marlins should make for a mighty fine stadium.

[Buddy Holly]

Nah, it speaks to why Miami currently has a franchise in each of the major pro leagues and SA only has one.

Miami has an NHL team? Since when?

[Peter]

What better deal? A deal can't be worked on.

The threat, if there was one, to Miami is the Marlins being granted to search for relocation sites. Now the Marlins are talking about coming back to see the city again. They've past any post of just threating Miami into a better deal.


Then SA is a pawn in finding a more desirable locale to relocate to.




Read up on the what the problems with the Marlins and Miami are instead of barf up the same shit over and over.

When you offer something other than "San Antonio is the bestest city ever" let me know.




When Tags or Jerry Jones die.

Right.

[SequSpur]

Nah, it speaks to why Miami currently has a franchise in each of the major pro leagues and SA only has one.

First of all, Miami has a few more recreational/social options than a river.

Sporting events might not be a priority to the local government.

[Buddy Holly]

Then SA is a pawn in finding a more desirable locale to relocate to.

Last time I checked Hawaii wasn't part of the search.

But you're right.

Portland seems... wait, they can't get funding nor will they try (using public money)

Las Vegas.... well, that's not happening.

Norfolk... yeah, that's way more desirable.



When you offer something other than "San Antonio is the bestest city ever" let me know.

I'm trying to figure out when I ever did offer that to begin with. :lol

[Mark in Austin]

I am curious as to why the good Judge didn't float this plan publically when the Saints were sniffing around for a deal. I'd bet somebody a hamburger that if Benson was offered a $300 million retrofit of the Alamodome, he wouldn't have let Tags lead him by his ear back to New Orleans nearly as easily. Notice how the Saints stopped making noise about the same time the Mayor went public with his "we'd love to have you, but you're not getting our money, Tom" statement.

It would have been an easier sell than MLB.

[ShoogarBear]

Taking this onto another tangent:

Assuming SA got a baseball team, would it be the best thing for the fans that it be owned by the Spurs?

Wouldn't the incentive to produce a championship-level product on both sides be maximized by having the franchises owned by competing entities, rather than a single fiscally-conservatie monopoly?

Or, to put another way, would owning a MLB franchise give the Spurs ownership less incentive to work on being successful in the NBA?

[Buddy Holly]

I am curious as to why the good Judge didn't float this plan publically when the Saints were sniffing around for a deal. I'd bet somebody a hamburger that if Benson was offered a $300 million retrofit of the Alamodome, he wouldn't have let Tags lead him by his ear back to New Orleans. Notice how the Saints stopped making noise about the same time the Mayor went public with his "we'd love to have you, but you're not getting our money, Tom" statement.

It would have been an easier sell than MLB.

Because money for the stadium is coming from the County and the county was talking to MLB (Marlins) before the Saints came into picture.

[SequSpur]

I am curious as to why the good Judge didn't float this plan publically when the Saints were sniffing around for a deal. I'd bet somebody a hamburger that if Benson was offered a $300 million retrofit of the Alamodome, he wouldn't have let Tags lead him by his ear back to New Orleans. Notice how the Saints stopped making noise about the same time the Mayor went public with his "we'd love to have you, but you're not getting our money, Tom" statement.

It would have been an easier sell than MLB.

Even though this is a good idea, I don't think a real opportunity was ever available. The Saints were here because of Katrina. The NFL, the state of Louisiana will break the bank to ensure that the Saint Legend lives on in New Orleans at least for one more year. It's important to that region.

Now whose to say a year from now Benson is ready to roll to SA, then the offer is presented?????? hmmmmmmmm... that seems like a likely occurrence. :angel

I fully expect it to happen.

[Buddy Holly]

Taking this onto another tangent:

Assuming SA got a baseball team, would it be the best thing for the fans that it be owned by the Spurs?

Wouldn't the incentive to produce a championship-level product on both sides be maximized by having the sports franchiseownned by competing entries, rather than a single fiscally-conservatie monopoly?

Or, to put another way, would owning a MLB franchise give the Spurs ownership less incentive to work on being successful in the NBA?

I doubt the Spurs would have a controlling interest in the Marlins if that is the team that comes, Loria will not sell the team.

[ShoogarBear]

I doubt the Spurs would have a controlling interest in the Marlins if that is the team that comes, Loria will not sell the team.

Still doesn't answer my question.

[SequSpur]

Taking this onto another tangent:

Assuming SA got a baseball team, would it be the best thing for the fans that it be owned by the Spurs?

Wouldn't the incentive to produce a championship-level product on both sides be maximized by having the franchises owned by competing entities, rather than a single fiscally-conservatie monopoly?

Or, to put another way, would owning a MLB franchise give the Spurs ownership less incentive to work on being successful in the NBA?

I don't think so. To me, its all about the players. It was pure luck that the Spurs got David Robinson and Tim Duncan. The rest of the pieces were done by creative drafting, free agency signings and trades.

The is only one champion every year.... Imagine if sometime in the next 10 years, SA won a World Series? That would be incredible, but hey.... seems like most of you all don't want to take a chance????????

[Buddy Holly]

Still doesn't answer my question.


would owning a MLB franchise give the Spurs ownership less incentive to work on being successful in the NBA?

They wouldn't have a controlling interest in the Marlins.

[Mark in Austin]

Because money for the stadium is coming from the County and the county was talking to MLB before the Saints came into picture.


Back then there wasn't an agreement in place for an exclusive negotiating window between the County and the Marlins that anybody has reported. It probably would have been a good negotiating tactic to offer it to the Saints too.

On the other hand, there can really be only three explanations for this. Either there was an exclusive negotiating period, the current uproar about MLB is just posturing (who's up for re-election in the County this year?), or the County didn't want to see the NFL in San Antonio. It just doesn't add up that the County would be willing to drop $300 million and spend the political capital for MLB, but not the NFL.

interesting...

[Buddy Holly]

Back then there wasn't an agreement in place for an exclusive negotiating window between the County and the Marlins that anybody has reported. It probably would have been a good negotiating tactic to offer it to the Saints too.

On the other hand, there can really be only three explanations for this. Either there was an exclusive negotiating period, the current uproar about MLB is just posturing (who's up for re-election in the County this year?), or the County didn't want to see the NFL in San Antonio. It just doesn't add up that the County would be willing to drop $300 million and spend the political capital for MLB, but not the NFL.

interesting...

Because the county isn't going to put the measure (300 million) up for vote unless they know the team is serious.

Hell, this isn't even a done deal. All it is, is the funding is in place should the Marlins pick San Antonio.

That vote isn't being put on the November ballot unless the county knows for sure the MLB is serious in picking San Antonio.

No way would the County done this with all that uncertainty behind the Saints.

[mookie2001]

I can't see 60,000 to 70,000 showing up day in and night out for Baseball in San Antonio.I can't see S.A. leading the Majors in attendance over the Yankees by 10,000-20,000 either

[Buddy Holly]

I can't see 60,000 to 70,000 showing up day in and night out for Baseball in San Antonio.

WTF? How did I miss that? :lol

[SequSpur]

I think SA, New Braunfels, San Marcos, Helotes, etc. could support a MLB team but I doubt this is going to happen.

I mean, wtf? is the Marling going to announce now that in 3 years they are moving to SA?

That would be attendance suicide.. wouldn't it?

[Buddy Holly]

That common in sports. Look at the Nets.

[T-Pain]

i think this city can use another pro team. in fact, were the only top 10 most populated city in the US that has only one professional sports team

[Peter]

Miami has an NHL team? Since when?


I wrote "major pro leagues". Sunrise isn't that far away. Miami also has a major DI NCAA program.

[gameFACE]

When teams talk about needing a new facility to "maximize potential revenue streams" they're mainly talking about lux boxes and club seating - things that the average fan can't afford to buy a season at a time.
That's a key component. The Alamodome currently does not have adequate luxury suites. It's run by the city. The city has already made it clear that they (we) will not pay up. An MLB stadium will require fewer luxury suites. Pricewise what a full MLB season cost per suite compared to a full NFL season I don't know. But the assumption is that the corporate base in San Antonio is currently strong enough and will continue to grow enough to support a second team. Also, the average fan can buy a $5-10 seat in the upper level or SRO sections for a baseball game.

I'd like to have a football team here, too. But San Antonio was passed over last decade for NFL expansion. And the NFL has no plans to expand, does note have SA in it's radar and would deal again with a city unwilling to upgrade whether that means renovation or new football stadium. Only an act of God brought pro football here. But if a pro baseball team comes knocking at my door to see if I might be interested i'm gonna invite them in for a drink - or two.


"I saw him at the Argyle (Club) the other night," Wolff said, "and some guys there were saying, 'Maybe we shouldn't go for baseball if it precludes us from getting a football team.' Red was there and he said, 'That's (expletive). Go for what you can get.'"
link (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA030706.01A.marlins.d5f7817.html)

Doubter's are part of the game. They'll show up at the voting booth. Good luck to you.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Baseball is boring. NFL or bust.

[SequSpur]

That's a key component. The Alamodome currently does not have adequate luxury suites. It's run by the city. The city has already made it clear that they (we) will not pay up. An MLB stadium will require fewer luxury suites. Pricewise what a full MLB season cost per suite compared to a full NFL season I don't know. But the assumption is that the corporate base in San Antonio is currently strong enough and will continue to grow enough to support a second team. Also, the average fan can buy a $5-10 seat in the upper level or SRO sections for a baseball game.

I'd like to have a football team here, too. But San Antonio was passed over last decade for NFL expansion. And the NFL has no plans to expand, does note have SA in it's radar and would deal again with a city unwilling to upgrade whether that means renovation or new football stadium. Only an act of God brought pro football here. But if a pro baseball team comes knocking at my door to see if I might be interested i'm gonna invite them in for a drink - or two.

Doubter's are part of the game. They'll show up at the voting booth. Good luck to you.


The Saints weren't available. Mayor Hardberger has made it clear that the suites would be finished around the dome if the NFL comes here but only if they come.

They were also planning to upgrade the clubs and concessions and scoreboard in the dome..........

But again, there is no team available. the saints were here because of katrina.

[T-Pain]

Miami has an NHL team? Since when?


Florida Panthers

[Buddy Holly]

Florida Panthers

Isn't that Fort Lauderdale's team?

[Rescueone]

I believe that is the sentiment the city has had for quite awhile, but it has been made very clear that as long as Tags is commisioner, SA will not let a franchise be placed here. So, might as well go for baseball.

The game is so boring and moves at a snails pace. People do like the game, so to each his/her own I guess.

No Baseball teams sell out, so don't worry about it, just sell as many as you can.

The number of Season ticket sales will be part of any move

Not even the Yankees can dream about filling those numbers.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

But, there will be a stipulation for sure

And the people in SA are the only ones that have the problems that come with work?

That's why it won't work, because most fans will be at work.


You got me there, the missions drew 272,000 fans last year. Not too shabby though.

http://www.ballparkdigest.com/features/attendance_by_team_2005.html



Vote on what people want? It's a business, they have every right to try to come here if they want. I'm sure most people do want football over baseball, but again, unless the CFL decides to come here, if you want to cheer for a local football team, better get used to cheering for the High school teams. Just because you don't want a baseball team here, don't assume that others don't, and why should you choose for them? If you're not interested, don't go.
And the city has a good tax situation set up for this kind of stuff, very little impact is felt to local citizens, and for that, yes, I do think they still have a vote.

True, they do have the right to come here if they want to play to a damn near empty house every night. I can't see that happening. Besides, If it's a publicly funded building I believe a vote must come up for that stadium to be built. If it's not a double use facility for football and Baseball, they won't get my vote. Note: I am a huge high school football fan and will always be since I played the game and have one son playing and another on the way next season. If Baseball does come to San Antonio, don't worry, I won't be there!

Sorry I went off, just that I always hear these same excuses. And they are not always valid. My only concern is the Spurs, as long as they are contenders, or at least a playoff team, very little revenue or excitement lost. However, when we become a lottery team is when we should worry.

[yavozerb]

NFL has already made it clear that SA is not even on the map for any future plans. Baseball is more appealing to south texas than basketball and SA is much closer to Austin than Houston or Arlington. As far as attendance a good MLB attendance figure would be 30K to 40K.. I think if marketed correctly there is a huge market for MLB stretching from austin to south texas!!

[Rescueone]

I can't see S.A. leading the Majors in attendance over the Yankees by 10,000-20,000 either

How many seats do all the stadiums in MLB have? I don't know, just asking. When I see highlights they look like 70,000 seats to me. Most teams play in NFL stadiums right? That's my argument!

[ChumpDumper]

That common in sports. Look at the Nets.The Nets are moving 14 miles. The Marlins would be moving 1400 miles.

[dknights411]

How many seats do all the stadiums in MLB have? I don't know, just asking. When I see highlights they look like 70,000 seats to me. Most teams play in NFL stadiums right? That's my argument!

The last time there was that many people at a baseball game, the Colorado Rockies were playing at Mile High Stadium.

Most baseball stadiums are about 45,000 capacity, however, the average attendance for a MLB game is about 26,000-28,000. The diehard baseball markets average about 40,000 per.

[sa_butta]

Could we really get that many for a baseball game on a nightly basis? I would go to several games myself throghout a season but how many season ticket holders would there be?

[T Park]

Id buy partial season tickets.

Definately all the games in April and May.

Theyd become my second favorite team.

I couldn't though, let them come ahead of my beloved Cardinals :)


But it would be beyond awesome to have a pro baseball team here.

Football? Id prefer.

Cause Id get to go to more games :) :lmao