Rebounding problem

[ploto]

The Spurs' 49-30 rebounding advantage in their 106-99 victory over the Washington Wizards on Saturday represented both a rarity and an opportunity.

Only nine times in 73 games have the Spurs outrebounded an opponent by 10 or more. They are 8-1 in those games, the loss coming in overtime at Philadelphia despite a 54-41 rebounding edge.

With the playoffs approaching, the Spurs say they understand the need for continued emphasis on rebounding. They outrebounded only four of 12 opponents in March and hope Saturday's production in their first game in April carries through the last nine regular-season games and into the playoffs.

"Rebounding is something we've needed to improve since way back in the two Detroit games," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said after Saturday's rebounding effort helped overcome Washington's 51 percent shooting. "Over time, we've made it more of a priority, and the guys have done a good job in that area."

The Pistons, a potential NBA Finals opponent, dominated the Spurs in rebounding 57-30 in a Christmas Day game at the Palace of Auburn Hills. The need for a more determined approach was re-emphasized after Detroit manhandled the Spurs 56-32 in rebounds Jan.12 at home.

The Spurs rank 15th in the 30-team league in rebounding, averaging 41.43; their opponents pull down 40.49 per game. The Pistons have been outrebounded slightly, 41.05-40.37, making their rebounding control in their two victories over the Spurs even more enigmatic.

"We just know that if we made it to the Finals against a team like Detroit or Miami, teams that rebound very well, it's definitely a key for us to rebound better if we're going to have a chance to win," said center Nazr Mohammed, the Spurs' No.2 rebounder at 5.3 per game.

Tim Duncan leads the Spurs in rebounding, his 11.1 average ranking fifth in the league. Small forward Bruce Bowen, who matched his career high with 11 rebounds Saturday, said the Spurs must fight a tendency to let Duncan and Mohammed do the bulk of the work.

"A lot of times, players tend to watch, thinking Tim is going to get the rebound, or Nazr is going to get it," Bowen said. "Now, we're all trying to help them out, because some of these teams that are very good rebounding teams, our big men are occupied with their big men. We all need to come back and help them."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA040306.1D.spurs.81c7a72.html

Wasn't Nazr starting supposed to fix the rebounding problem?

[boutons_]

Spurs getting killed on the boards is often only one symptom of a bad Spurs game.

What's really weird is that on the season, Spurs rebound better than the Pistons:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

Spurs 11th vs Pistons 18th if RB differential.

[sprrs]

"A lot of times, players tend to watch, thinking Tim is going to get the rebound, or Nazr is going to get it," Bowen said. "Now, we're all trying to help them out, because some of these teams that are very good rebounding teams, our big men are occupied with their big men. We all need to come back and help them."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA040306.1D.spurs.81c7a72.html

Wasn't Nazr starting supposed to fix the rebounding problem?

Imagine how much worse we would be if Nazr wasn't rebounding.

[rasho8]

Nazr starting was to help with the offensive boards... people say Rasho is slow, but Rasho is one the best zone defenders in the league... hes nowhere near as aggressive above the rim as Naqzr is, but for some reason even when the Spurs are up and need defense (which Nazr seems to like to watch but not participate in) Pop wont bring in the Slovenian Machine to fight for the defensive boards.

I mean.. wasnt Rasho 7th in the league last year in rebounding? Something like that.

[rasho8]

Oh sorry... he was 7th in 03-04 and 15th in 04-05

[Kori Ellis]

Wasn't Nazr starting supposed to fix the rebounding problem?

He only averages 5.3 rpg. Last season he averaged 6.4 during the regular season and 6.7 in the playoffs.



What's really weird is that on the season, Spurs rebound better than the Pistons:

Very strange. Most people would consider the Pistons a better rebounding team.

[Kori Ellis]

Oh sorry... he was 7th in 03-04 and 15th in 04-05

That's not correct. Rasho only averaged 7.7 in 03-04 and 6.6 last season. There's no way those numbers are 7th and 15th in the league.

[Rummpd]

Simple solution = play Nazr more. End of story.

[Kori Ellis]

Simple solution = play Nazr more. End of story.


He's not rebounding that great and as many other threads have proven, the team is much worse defensively with him in the lineup. So I don't think it's that simple.

Manu and Tony both need to rebound more (Manu averaged a rebound more last season). Plus obviously the frontcourt players need to pick it up in the postseason.

[leemajors]

Simple solution = play Nazr more. End of story.

uhh, we have been, he's not terribly consistent.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Oh sorry... he was 7th in 03-04 and 15th in 04-05

In 04-05 he ranked 36th @ 6.6 per ( he was 18th in Offensive rebounding @ 2.6)

In 03-04 he ranked 24th @ 7.7 per ( he was 7th in Offensive rebounding @ 3.1)


The offensive rebounding may statistically be nice, but overall, I don't think you'd call Rasho a great rebounder.

[boutons_]

This season:

Nazr: 1230 min, 377 RBs. = 0.31 RB/min

Rasho: 1360 min, 260 RBs = 0.19 RB/min

Rasho last season: 0.26 RB/min.

Nazr is a better rebounder but a much worse defender. SA's paint defense is much worse this season. I don' t have stats, but last season SA rarely lost the paint, and when they did, they almost always lost the game.

[ploto]

Simple solution = play Nazr more. End of story.
Did you miss my point? Nazr is playing more and we are still getting outrebounded. Nazr started every game in March and we only outrebounded the opponent 4/12. I have shown before how even though Nazr gets more offensive rebounds for himself that the team gives up more offensive rebounds when he is in there, too. We are talking about rebounding differential here.

Even touting the Wizards game- Nazr only had 5 rebounds in over 22 minutes. Etan Thomas had 6 rebounds. Nazr was NOT the reason for the good rebounding differential numbers. We got outrebounded by the Lakers all 3 games Nazr started and NOT the one Rasho started. Interesting.

Nazr is averaging 5.3 rebounds per game. If you extrapolate his minutes to equal Rasho's, he would be averaging 5.8 rebounds per game- or exactly 2 more rebounds per game than Rasho. That isn't what people said we would be getting from Nazr. Per 48 minutes don't really matter to me because you don't play 48 minutes. We know that Tim and Horry will be playing even more minutes in the play-offs, not fewer. You really want to cut their minutes to play Nazr more??

[Fabbs]

Spurs getting killed on the boards is often only one symptom of a bad Spurs game.

What's really weird is that on the season, Spurs rebound better than the Pistons:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

Spurs 11th vs Pistons 18th if RB differential.

So true. The "Rebounds = Rings" is a myth that is proven false. Modern day NBA (1980 or so forward, i have exact stats just not here and now) will show that NBA Champs won the Finals rebounding battle about 65% of the time. which means 35% of the time the Champ did not win the Finals rebounds.

Important? Yes. All ending? No way.
Still like to see the Spurs pick up the rebounding? Yes. Play Fabbs more. :spin

[conqueso]

Spurs getting killed on the boards is often only one symptom of a bad Spurs game.

What's really weird is that on the season, Spurs rebound better than the Pistons:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

Spurs 11th vs Pistons 18th if RB differential.

Especially perplexing when you see that the Spurs got outrebounded 113-62 in two games against Detroit. The explanation? Rebounding is all about desire.

Who are the two greatest rebounders of the last twenty years? Rodman (~6'6"; career: 13.3; high: 18.7) and Barkley (~6'4"; career: 11.7; high: 14.6). Granted, it takes skill to rebound the ball well, but when a guy 6-to-8 inches shorter than opposing post players mercilessly outrebounds them, you know that more than just talent is involved.

Rebounding is about positioning your center of balance advantageously, having long arms and being able to jump high and move laterally. But rebounding is also about exerting your will, seeing the ball coming off the rim and wanting it more than anyone else. That's why guys like Rodman and Barkley were so good, and why another undersized post (Ben Wallace) is among the leaders in rebounding every year. And that's why the Pistons outrebounded us by almost double even though they get outrebounded more often than not (40.37-41.05) by the rest of the league...they just wanted it more than we did.

Solving our rebounding woes will probably require giving Nazr more PT. It could also be remediated by a miraculous recovery from PF. But more than anything, the Spurs need to exert their will and go after those fucking boards like it's a matter of life and death, because in the NBA Finals, it probably will be.

[Bruno]

1) Nazr :
Nazr is one of the best rebounder in the league. Even if I hate stats/48min, he is 9th in the league for rbd/48min.
Why doesn't he play more ?
Because Duncan can't play full PF in a league where teams play more and more small ball and because Horry and Rasho deserve some playtime too.

2) Rebounding in march :
People should realize that opponents aren't nbdl or cba teams. There are very good teams in the nba outside of Spurs and Pistons. You should consider too that the schedule in march wasn't easy with a lot of trips and a lot of games against good teams.
Stop being arrogant : Spurs can't be a top team in each category and can't be positive for each stats each month.

3) Rebounding in playoff :
Spurs have been outrebounded by 20 or more rebounds against Detroit or Denver. I don't expect the same thing to happen in playoff with the motivation. Even if we aren't a top team, we aren't a bad rebounding team.

[ploto]

He's not rebounding that great and as many other threads have proven, the team is much worse defensively with him in the lineup. So I don't think it's that simple.
Obviously, worse defense= opponents higher FG%= fewer rebounds to be had.

[ploto]

It could also be remediated by a miraculous recovery from PF.
For the record, Tim has 11.1 rebounds per game- EXACTLY the same as last year.

[BigVee]

It also depends on who you are playing. Against an excellent defensive team like the Pistons, every possession is crucial...you cannot give them an extra opportunity to score because it is so hard to make up on the other end. The Spurs probable opponents in the WC playoffs do not play that type of defense...Kings, Mavericks, Suns. Therefore, where rebounding will become paramount is in the finals (assuming it goes down as people think)...Bowen, Manu and Finley need to get it done. Nazr/TD concentrate on keeping the Wallaces off the glass, the others go get the ball. Easier said than done.

[aaronstampler]

I think CIA Pop is gonna bust out our secret weapon on the Pistons this June, a lineup we've never used the whole year. It's gonna be the same as the starting lineup, but Horry will replace Bowen at SF. All of a sudden, we're gonna have a ton of length and size at C, and we'll rebound pretty well. Sure, we might lose a little perimeter defense, but we'll just funnel all their shooters toward the bigs, and on offense, we can have both TD and Nazr crashing the offensive glass at the same time...

[FreshPrince22]

Spurs getting killed on the boards is often only one symptom of a bad Spurs game.

What's really weird is that on the season, Spurs rebound better than the Pistons:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

Spurs 11th vs Pistons 18th if RB differential.

It's all about effort. The Pistons only give a big effort on the boards in crunch time or in big games. They suck most of the rest of the time.

[DarkReign]

I think CIA Pop is gonna bust out our secret weapon on the Pistons this June, a lineup we've never used the whole year. It's gonna be the same as the starting lineup, but Horry will replace Bowen at SF. All of a sudden, we're gonna have a ton of length and size at C, and we'll rebound pretty well. Sure, we might lose a little perimeter defense, but we'll just funnel all their shooters toward the bigs, and on offense, we can have both TD and Nazr crashing the offensive glass at the same time...

I think youre right. I hate that crotch-grabbing faggot, but he was Mr BigShot before Mr BigShot.

[Dre_7]

FYI as a starter Rasho averaged 4.3 rpg. Meanwhile, Nazr is averaging 6.7 rpg as a starter. If you want more rebounding, playing Rasho would not help that.

[ploto]

FYI as a starter Rasho averaged 4.3 rpg. Meanwhile, Nazr is averaging 6.7 rpg as a starter. If you want more rebounding, playing Rasho would not help that.
It just isn't that simple. The Spurs AS A TEAM actually grab more defensive rebounds with Rasho than with Nazr. And Nazr's rebounding does not seem to be helping the problem. Maybe Nazr grabs "other guys" rebounds-- I have definitely seen him do that. His contribution does not seem to be upping the total for the team- and isn't that what matters.

[Slinkyman]

It just isn't that simple. The Spurs AS A TEAM actually grab more defensive rebounds with Rasho than with Nazr. And Nazr's rebounding does not seem to be helping the problem. Maybe Nazr grabs "other guys" rebounds-- I have definitely seen him do that. His contribution does not seem to be upping the total for the team- and isn't that what matters.

how do you grab "other guys" rebounds? explain to me what that is cause you either grab you board or you don't. unless pop is on the bench yelling, "no nazr that rebound was for bruce!" Bottom line if you see the ball coming off the rim and you have position you DON'T wait for someone else to get it, you grab the damn ball, you don't hope someone else on your team gets. Maybe that's how it was in the WNBA i'm not sure but perhaps that's what Rasho does and that's why he's sitting on the bench.

EDIT: how are the spurs "much worse" defensively? In 21 game with Nazr starting we're 17-4, giving up 89.5 ppg. the only other team better is memphis who's giving up 88ppg on the season. With Nazr we're scoring 99PPG! for the season we're getting 95ppg. So in conclusion we give up slightly more points with nazr starting but our offense is much better.

[gameFACE]

How many PPG were the Spurs giving up with Rasho as a starter? I thought it was 86.5ppg.

So Ploto, what's the solution here. Just come out and say it....................... :lmao

[callo1]

Did you miss my point? Nazr is playing more and we are still getting outrebounded. Nazr started every game in March and we only outrebounded the opponent 4/12. I have shown before how even though Nazr gets more offensive rebounds for himself that the team gives up more offensive rebounds when he is in there, too. We are talking about rebounding differential here.

Even touting the Wizards game- Nazr only had 5 rebounds in over 22 minutes. Etan Thomas had 6 rebounds. Nazr was NOT the reason for the good rebounding differential numbers. We got outrebounded by the Lakers all 3 games Nazr started and NOT the one Rasho started. Interesting.

Nazr is averaging 5.3 rebounds per game. If you extrapolate his minutes to equal Rasho's, he would be averaging 5.8 rebounds per game- or exactly 2 more rebounds per game than Rasho. That isn't what people said we would be getting from Nazr. Per 48 minutes don't really matter to me because you don't play 48 minutes. We know that Tim and Horry will be playing even more minutes in the play-offs, not fewer. You really want to cut their minutes to play Nazr more??

hmmm....maybe the team still getting out rebounded with Nazr in March has to do with it being the hardest stretch the Spurs have had in the scheduling?

Ya know, tired legs lead to less rebounds.

Seriously, give Pop a call and tell him that you have analyzed their problem in depth, and I'm sure his ears will perk right up as he anxiously awaits your recommendations on how to remedy the situation:)